When is it Wise to PUSH Yourself?

So, in the name of PUSHING OURSELVES, we are pushing ourselves to run a re-run of an old episode and let go of our PERFECT PODCASTING STREAK ⚡️ is this wise? YOU TELL US. (New content coming next week!!!)

💿 music by blanket forts 💿 

Transcript

Welcome and Pool Season Begins

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour Podcast. I'm John, joined by Kelly.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Yes, I'm Kelly. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Your therapists.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Yeah, your resident Wise Mind Happy Hour Therapist.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Wise Mind Happy Hour Therapist, leading you to wise decisions, hopefully in your life about tablecloths, weddings, and the like.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

And the like.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Chocolate, sweets. Yeah. You've covered a lot of ground.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Yeah. A lot of pretty significant ground. Yes. Yeah. Meaningful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Groundbreaking.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Um, so yeah, let's just do a little catch up. Yeah. Um, what's been going on?

SPEAKER_01 0:38

What has been going on? This past weekend. Well, the weather's changing. It's getting warmer.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Thank God.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Thank God. I feel like it's been on pause for a while. Yeah. And um, this was the first weekend I was actually able to take my kids to the pool.

SPEAKER_05 0:53

Oh, wow. I know.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Which we didn't think it was going to be warm enough. We got these pool passes this year.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Yeah, what what pool?

SPEAKER_01 0:59

It's the Lincolnwood pool.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

That's the pool I went to growing up.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Is it? Oh my god. Were you members? Yes. Oh, yeah. We gotta have you as we gotta have you as a guest.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

I would love to. Oh my god, relive my childhood. Adult swim, do they still do it? Um 30 minutes like every hour.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yeah, uh, it's not it's definitely not 30 minutes. It's like 10 minutes where they'll have like, well, they'll do the safety checks, but then they'll also have time where it's like just the parents in the pool or whatever. Yeah, or adults in the pool. Yeah, it's not a half hour, but um so I took them there on Saturday, was not that warm. We went there, got our passes, probably about 25 people there. And my kids were like, Yeah, let's go in the pool. So they went in for like an hour. It was basically like you had your own pool, which was awesome. And there's like you know, there's like the little kitty one, and there's like different, you know, things, no line for the the slides or anything. The next day we were like, well, it's even warmer, let's go again. So we took some some friends and went there, and you know, it was the first uh poop in the pool of the season.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Oh my god, I remember that so oh yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

So what if now to be fair, my kids had probably been swimming for I don't know, probably like an hour and a half. And then there was an alert. There was this little child who found a lifeguard, and I'm noticing that this child is like pulling this lifeguard in his direction and pointing. And he walks past, and the lifeguard walks past as well with his child, and I hear this child say, It's over there, I saw it over there. And so that starts that that was the dominoes of you're you're just like your knees buckle. Yeah, that was the dominoes of Oh my god. Now at that point, none of the kids my two kids, and then the two friends that you know we brought uh with us and their mom, like no, nobody was in that pool at that point. They were having snacks. There's another pool that has like diving boards and stuff, and so that's where the older kids were at. Um, but yep, sure enough, announcement get out of the pool. And so there's chairs just around the pool, and of course we're sitting in our chairs, and we just had front row access to like the cleanup process.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

And like what do they they had to drain the whole pool?

SPEAKER_01 3:30

So they didn't have to so they don't have to drain the whole pool. They used to do that when we would they I mean, how much detail are we given here? I mean, they scoop it out. Oh so you know, there was a pool coordinator who came, and then there's this whole cleaning process that they do, yeah, which took a while. And you know, my kids are having a great time in the other pools, which was so that's the advantage here is it's not like it's just one. Um, yeah, so this whole cleaning process, and then they have to redistribute all this chlorine. And then once they do all of that, which probably took, I don't know, 45 minutes, then you have to wait 45 minutes before they would even reopen the pool again. So I mean, we didn't even stay there for that pool to reopen, which I don't even know if my kids would want to go back in that pool after that. Um, you almost want them to drain it, but totally anyway. So that was our uh yeah. That is funny.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

It was like, is that an adult who's just like incontinent?

SPEAKER_01 4:29

No, it had to have been a child. My guess would be if I had to guess, it was probably like a swim diaper type of situation. Sure, sure, sure. Probably a little kid that was in there with their parents or something like that. And yeah. Right, totally. So that is funny. Yeah. Swim season. It's here.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Wow. I was on the swim team at Lincolnwood.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

At Lincolnwood, okay. So you still have to do it.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

And I used to have to go swim when it was like it would be like 50 degrees and we'd be swimming out there. My mom would be getting mad about it like that.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Because you'd have to do it in the morning. Yes. Because they have a coat and pants on. That's right. It's like lap swimming is like six to early, it's like really early. Early.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Yeah. Oh, I I mean, like almost every sport I ever did, I begged to quit the second I started. But I can't believe you grew up going there.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Yeah, we'll take you there.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Yes, I would love to. Yeah, we can go. Let's do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

I don't know if Josh is invited, but no, of course. Player cards, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:25

That is so funny.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Yeah, but the first day we went there, nobody's there. It was pretty like that's great. Cool. It felt like, oh, we reserved this, you know.

SPEAKER_04 5:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

And we really just went to get our IDs, and if that's all we got for the season, then it would have been worth a trip, but the kids were like, Yeah, let's jump in there.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Is it heated? It is.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

I don't think so. Is it?

SPEAKER_02 5:45

I wasn't heated when I was young, but I thought maybe now.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

I don't think it is.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Okay. Because when we we went to Florida this week on a little mini moon post-wedding, and the pool there was not heated. It was a little chilly.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Was it?

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Yeah, and the ocean was kind of chilly.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Yeah, I didn't go in either day into the pool. I because the first day I didn't even bring it, like Sarah actually like wore a swimsuit. I didn't even put one on because I was like, there's no way we're going in this pool. Like there, like we're just getting the IDs, it's not warm enough. And my kids ended up wanting to go in. I mean, Sarah didn't go in either, but yeah, um, and then the second day I was just like, no, I'm not feeling this. I'm not gonna do it. Yeah, um, which is great because the seats are all just right there by the pool. So I brought a book and which is reading.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

So nice to sit and read the best. That's what we did a ton of.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Yeah. What you're reading, John.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

I'm reading a book that came out this year. Um, that I was I really loved the show The Americans. Yeah. This book is basically kind of rehashing the history of the Soviet spies. Yes, the real um kind of uh intelligence, you know, uh community that came up in Russia and then kind of how they ended up planting these spies which Julius and Ethel Rosenberg?

SPEAKER_02 7:08

No.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Um well I'm very early in the book. Um, so you know, I'm still around like World War II and kind of like there. So I haven't really gotten to the Cold War section of it yet, which I'm sure that's probably where it probably ramps up, but yeah, it's kind of outlining, you know, just giving a lot of the background in the history. Because it sounds like the way this book is written, that also just their intelligence and spy, you know, I guess I don't know what you call it, like program or whatever was just much more well established before the CIA was here in the United States.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

What's it called?

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Oh, it's a long title. Um I would have to look it up, but um, let me get back to you on

Reading Recommendations and Book Talk

SPEAKER_01 7:48

that.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

Okay, very cool.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

But yeah, that show was really engaging to me, so I was like, oh.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Yeah, people love that show.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Yeah, and I just really like the the actor and the actress. Um Matthew Reese and Russell. Carrie Russell, yeah. Yeah, she's great.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

I was listening to a podcast where the woman was like, she's like, I'm ready to leave my family and my children for Matthew. And they're really married.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

I know they're they're together because they met on The Americans and so cute. Totally. I'm trying to look up this book right now, but anyway, I'll get back to you. But that's what I'm reading right now. It's a little bit though, yeah. I feel like I read for a long time and I don't get very far in it because it's there's no dialogue, you know, it's just all facts, yeah, kind of like history, and so it's a little bit of a dense um read.

SPEAKER_04 8:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Uh, which is fine. Um, but I'm I'm more of a novel typically reader. Yeah, same. It's just gonna take me a while to get through it.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

But yeah, it's funny because like if I'm forced to read one of those in like a class, I end up usually loving it. But yeah, it's like in my own time, I usually pick a novel.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

So do I. But this was so the subject matter is just so interesting to me because of that show. And I actually speaking of the pool, uh, um, Wes and I were waiting outside of the pool for his friends to show up, and Shane and Sarah had gone in, and we were waiting, uh, you know, so that we could get them in as guests or whatever. And Wes looked at my book and he was like, What's that book about? And I kind of told him, and he was, you know, I was like, Oh, you know, it's about like it would it would be like if you know you thought about um, and I just mentioned, you know, a family friend or something like that, and I was like, to think that they were like living here this whole time and they were spies, you know, and and Wes reads his own little like spy, it's called Spy School, it's like this his own little spy series. And he was like, you know, sometimes I think about my friends sometimes, and I'm like, maybe they're really like faking and not really being my friend. Wow. And I was like, Yeah, it's kind of like that. Like, people are like acting, but um, so it was kind of funny that he was he was thinking about that in his own life a little bit. Like, what if they're really like not my friend?

SPEAKER_02 10:00

But they're like pretending. So oh my god, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

I know.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Yeah, he's like looking at one of his friends, like he's like, Oh, they're Russian. Or but you really oh my god, I love it. That's great. Oh, I love that he like reads, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

So we he's into this series, spy school. So it's like this kid or it's like this secret organization that poses as a school, but it's really they're training kids to be spies, and so it's like they go they each book has like a different mission, and they're up against yeah, they're up against a uh evil spy organization called Spider. And um my god, so fun. So yeah, so we read it to him as well. So like we're we're up, Sarah and I are up on the characters and stuff. So usually like we'll read a chapter out loud with him, and then he'll usually like read another chapter after we're done to himself. So then he like updates us in the morning on like the characters.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

That's great.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Yeah, I love it. Ben, the main character Ben is in his love interest, Erica.

unknown 11:02

Erica.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

And she's like the best spy in the school.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Yeah, she is one of our good spies.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Hard as nails, but now we're seeing another side of her. So the plot thickens.

unknown 11:13

Ooh.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Interesting. Yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Get it at your local library. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

Spy school. Probably have it on my Kindle.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Download it. Or download it. Oh, yeah, we had a How Rise Is It episode there.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

Yeah. Yeah, we we on our mini moon, we both have been reading. We we've been reading a little as I basically forced Josh to read this, but romanticy. Have you heard of this?

SPEAKER_01 11:37

I can guess what it is.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

So I haven't heard of it, but I think I can guess my sister-in-law on my bachelorette party got me the first novel of the series called Fourth Wing. Or the series is called the Empyrean series. Have you heard of Fourth Wing?

SPEAKER_01 11:54

No, but maybe from you. Did you tell me about this? I maybe a couple weeks ago or something. I probably did.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

It's like about this war college where these but it's a romance fantasy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

Where these like students are like preparing for war at this college and they're learning their um cadets. They're called riders. There's like different sections of the school, and the riders are like the toughest, and the riders try to bond with dragons, so they each like get their own dragon. Oh, oh, yeah. Um, and there's some serious sesswall themes. Um, and it's great, it's pretty addicting. It's not, you know, it's not crime and punishment by any means in terms of like how esoteric it is, but it is a fun read. Yeah. And you will burn through it, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Yeah. You gotta have you gotta have those reads. Yeah, you gotta have reads that are just good, clean, fun, just beach read, clean. It's not clean at all. Not clean at all. Antiseptic. Just very, very quick and fun, and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

Totally. So I've read all three of the series already.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

And I'm like, so that's the type of book you would take on a trip.

SPEAKER_02 13:03

Yeah. Well, now I'm reading another series that like they recommend for people who've read that series. Yeah, which is similar. This one's about fairies.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Um I don't know if it's quite as addicting, but I am liking it. That's great. And Josh has moved on to reading something with a little more um thematic complexity. Girth. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Have you read Adventures of Cavalier and Clay?

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Yeah, read that. I love that book. Um yeah, what that is an amazing novel.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

But Michael, is it Michael Shabin? I don't know. I would Chabon.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

I would I for some reason would say Shalom. I yeah, I think I would say it the first way you said it, maybe like Chab Shabin, Chabin. Shabin? Shabin. Shabin. Um, yes, I I really enjoy all of his novels. Um but that one was a great novel.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

It's one of those ones where like the first 50 pages, they're talking about like smuggling a golem out of and I'm like, okay. Yeah. And but now once you get into the part where like the kids are all together, like trying to launch the com that's kind of right where I am. And it's basically a bunch of underdog kids like in World War II trying to start a comic book, uh, comic book, a comic book company together as like kind of children illustrators, like when like Superman was first a thing. But then there's like Hitler stuff going on, and it's kind of like the beginning of World War II, and one of the kids was like kind of exported out of um what is it, uh, Czechoslovakia, and the whole rest of his family is like still there, like maybe dying, but he's like off in America making comic books with his cousin.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

That was a book that I there are certain books that I will remember being like at work and only thinking about I can't wait till I get home to read. And that was one of those books.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Yeah, I'm starting to love it. It's it's it takes a while, like compared to a long book. Yeah, I think I'm less than halfway through, but I can tell I'm gonna love it at this point.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Yeah. Did he also write the Yiddish Policeman's Union?

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Yeah, I I know multiple people who couldn't get through that book.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Yeah, I liked it. Okay, and I'm trying to think of the other one of his that I liked, but um, that is by far my favorite of these.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Well, okay, yeah, I've wanted to read it for I think a decade plus now.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

So that almost makes me want to read it again.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

It's one of those books I started many times and then I would like start a different book out of peer pressure. Sure. Solidarity. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

Fourth wing. Fourth wing, fourth wing. I feel like multiple times.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

It wasn't just fired on me. No, it wasn't just Fourth Wing. Fourth Wing. I think it might have been you every time, but it was some book you were reading that like, but I'd get excited. I'd get excited because I I do like reading books like not necessarily at the same time as you, but like, you know, clip or a book you've read because it's just solidarity.

SPEAKER_03 16:00

Oh, yeah, with Eileen.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

It's fun to discuss it with someone, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

But you know, now that I know that John loves this book, I'm gonna be like hitting him up every night. Oh, just pound through. Oh, that's right. He wrote Wonder Boys. Oh, that's the movie I want to watch with you. Have you seen that movie? Yeah. Isn't it? It's great, right? It is. Okay. I haven't read the book. Yeah, but the movie I love. Michael Douglas, right? Michael Douglas and Toby McGuire. And it's like a weird, I don't even remember the plot. It's one of those weird of where a lot of things happen, but it's kind of like about characters and funny. Yeah. Cool.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

I'm excited to hear when you finish Cavalier and play. It's a great one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Okay, well, we can get into our topic.

Defining Pushing Yourself

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Today we can just quickly segue into our topic. Today we're gonna be talking about the idea of pushing yourself. So yeah, we'll we'll kind of define that a little bit. Yeah. Pushing yourself. Yeah. So basically, we're I think what we're getting at is like moments when, or the idea of like, do I and when do I push myself to do something to try something, push myself in a direction, rather than maybe wait to kind of intuitively be led somewhere. Not that intuition can't come into this, but you know, like go with what I feel like doing, what I want. Where do I actually push myself? And yeah, we just wanted to open this up a little bit. So I wonder what what comes up for you initially.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Well, it what speaks to me about this is certainly from more of like that acceptance and commitment therapy lens, the idea of like committed action. So committing to something in service uh of your values, so what's important to you versus uh committing or pushing yourself to something because you feel like doing it. Yeah. And a lot of times the you know, the values being those things like those directions that give our life meaning, those are hard directions to to move towards. And a lot of times there's a lot of resistance internally for us. And so you know, pushing yourself to do the meaningful thing is not easy a lot of times. And so I very strongly resonate with the idea of if we wait to feel like doing stuff, we're probably gonna be waiting a long time. And a lot of life is pushing ourselves through a lot of discomfort and yeah, and through resistance, whether that's thoughts or emotions or any type of barriers. So I don't know, that's what the first thing that came to mind was like committing to something not because you feel like it, yeah, but pushing yourself because it's it's gonna give you a meaningful uh uh experience whatever that is.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Yeah, totally. You know, it's like I totally believe in this idea and like definitely make use of it in my clinical work in my own life, but I also know there's like a very strong part of me that kind of like is biased toward like the right things that kind of feel right and feel organic and and almost like if you listen into your wise mind there'll be no struggle. And I think that's like it that's true and it isn't true. Or like pushing yourself, it it doesn't even always have to be a struggle. You know, it can be like it's an effort. And I know like even because I'm you know, I'm I'm very into the manifestation of it all that I often like even have an interesting relationship with like efforting toward things and uh and I believe so much in like surrender and letting go and releasing things as a way to move in the direction you want to, you know, like like a self-worth is an and wise mind is often like shedding something that doesn't belong there. But I do know there is such uh an essential piece that is pushing. And sometimes I do struggle to like negotiate the two. And I'm even thinking, you know, it's like where do I struggle to push myself where I know in my wise mind it's needed. I mean, this could even be like doing my thank you notes for my wedding showers and my wedding.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Oh yeah, if you waited to feel like doing those, you're not writing those. You're never gonna write those. And I speak from personal experience in that. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

So it's like I I don't feel like doing them at any given present moment, right? There's no Saturday morning I wake up and I'm like, oh man, you know what I feel like doing? But it it is something meaningful, right? Expressing my gratitude individually through there's definitely a bug in here through that fly loves you. It's like a liar. Um give me some space, fly. Um, but it's like but do yeah, is that meaningful to me? Do I care about that and find that like a rich experience to like exchange like gratitude and thank someone for celebrating me and going out of their way for me? Yes, that is that is a value-aligned thing for me. That like I don't have to push myself to value it, right? I don't have to push myself, like you never have to push yourself with that, with like finding value in something to do.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

So you yeah, you know the value. Totally. And that's in the doing.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

It's the doing, it's the sitting down, pen to paper, envelope, lick it, stamp it, walk it down to the mailbox. Like all of that is Yeah, I definitely and things like that I often have to push myself toward. Things especially that don't have a Headline.

SPEAKER_05 22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

But are meaningful. You know, is there a little bit of a or even like exercise I have to do?

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Well, no, I mean my mind immediately went to the easiest thing probably for people to resonate with is exercise.

SPEAKER_03 22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

More often than not, probably people have to push themselves to do that.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

Because they know the value logically.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

And if you wait to, you know, I think there is a certain population that you don't have like they look forward to it all the time. And you know, I think there is though a little, probably more often than not, like you have to push yourselves to towards that, right? Because it's there's a lot of reasons not to do it, or your mind gives you a lot of reasons, or your mood is I don't feel like doing it. Right. You know?

SPEAKER_02 22:47

Right. Yeah. And and you know, I think too, like the the opposite can be true as well, right? It's like we can I know I can fall into pushing myself too little. Sometimes out of like my ideology that like everything comes from like opening up space for it, which I do really believe in my heart, like but that doesn't exclude pushing yourself at the same time. That can be part of that. But I think are there places where people do this too little? Are there places where people do this too much? Sure. Yeah, or even where I do it too much, like push, push at something. You know, like I mean, Josh, actually, you push yourself a lot, you're a pusher of yourself, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:37

I would say so, yeah. And it's interesting because I I have a lot of comments and I don't know which one to say first. Because as you've been talking, I've been listening. But I yeah, I do think I push myself. Sometimes I almost have to push myself in a different way. You could think of it as stereotypically not pushing yourself, but like I feel like so sometimes my mode is so much like get all this stuff done, and like I think my OCD is somewhat to thank for that. Like I may not feel like doing a task, but like I feel messy and I don't feel clean till it's like done. And so it's like I feel good like checking something off the list.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

Um and sometimes you don't feel clean unless you've sort of suffered.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Yeah.

Values vs. Feelings When Taking Action

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

So which I do not have that illness.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Am I like totally getting off on a tangent? No, no. Yeah. So yeah, it's like there's so many different types of pushing yourself. Like I feel like there's like physical exertion, there's like doing tasks you don't want to do. But then you could also think of it in the more meta sense of like pushing yourself almost to like play against type. Cause like I'm a workaholic. So it's like sometimes I need to push myself to be like, you are not gonna think about work at all. You're gonna sit down and watch Game of Thrones and like really focus on the episode, and like like you're allowed to like daydream about the movie you're editing because that's a helpful part of your process, but like don't do it for too long, like or maybe try not to do it at all. Um I don't know if I'm like arriving at a point.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

No, but I think that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Yeah, the different like types of pushing yourself, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

Pushing yourself, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Well, that's yeah, and which probably begs the question is the pushing whether it's too little or too much, some sort of avoidance or control, or you know, like am I avoiding the discomfort of having to sit with idle time or not not working, because that might be really uncomfortable because working gives me a sense of productivity or clean or you know, whatever it is, right? And so whether it's the lack of push or too much, either way, it's probably one of those controller escape moves, right? Which is like I I I'm protective. Uh yeah, I'm protecting myself from something that's uncomfortable for me. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Yeah, I think that is a really great barometer, you know, and and a and a gateway ultimately to wise mind to kind of ask like by pushing in this space, pushing right here, am I avoiding some feeling? Or even like running towards some feeling. Because really value-aligned things, wise-minded things, it's gonna sound funny, but I think you don't really get anything out of them. I know I don't mean that literally, but like you don't get this like juicy reaction. It's a deeper, like I I talked, I've talked with many clients recently about this, where it really is like a nothingness that actually feels good often when you're value aligned, when you're wise-minded, self-energy. It's very spacious and kind of still. So you're not really getting anything out of it. I mean, I guess you could argue you're getting a bit of a sense of like peace and wholeness, but I think it doesn't feel so like uh experience-y, it's very kind of like clear that you get. So it's almost like I mean, I think a simple question you could kind of ask is am I getting something right now out of this? Or does it just feel aligned? And I think that's important. Like even with something like exercise, it's like for some people, exercise is a numbing. You know, I work with a ton of people with eating disorder issues and exercise addiction. I talked about exercise addiction even today, and you know, there is this like numbing of feeling that happens, or sometimes there's an OCD element where you feel clean if you've done these rituals and worked your body in this way, and so you get that out of it. But could exercise be, you know, moving your body, respecting your body, aligned in that way, and you do it, and there may not be such a hit that you get, but more like this I know is meaningful and respectful and nourishing to my body. And there's that knowing.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Yeah, maybe it's more a knowing than like a feeling that you mean I think the wisdom in this for me, that we're talking through it, is maybe the knowledge that whether I feel like not pushing or pushing too much or somewhere in between, it's knowing that we can act against it if it if that's the wise move.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Right. So if the urge is to push myself so much, yeah, knowing though I don't have to give in to that urge, as uncomfortable as that is, and maybe not push as hard, yeah, that's maybe where the inherent wisdom is it lies is in knowing that we don't have to act on our urges.

SPEAKER_04 28:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Now that's really hard to, you know, thread that needle.

SPEAKER_04 29:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Sometimes, and it's hard to catch it. And sometimes that's the effective thing is we catch it in the middle of doing it. I'm not pushing enough. And so I really gotta get up and go for a walk or do that exercise. Or we catch ourselves like, God, it's 2 a.m. I'm working, I gotta let this go. Like, I gotta get some sleep, right? So I think it's knowing that the urge to do something and our action is separate, right? We talked about opposite action from a DT perspective, is there's wisdom there.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Yeah. Yeah. And in that, in what you're saying is that key piece, I think. Strangely enough, like honoring the urge itself as a feeling, acknowledging it, recognizing it, can actually be that like through line or that gateway to your values, not fighting the urge itself, but more like this is here and getting curious. Is it aligned? Is it what is most meaningful to me? And if it isn't, that's when you can kind of step in the other direction. Instead of write that, like even fighting yourself or having the urge, you know, like judging myself for not wanting to exercise when it's like I can just notice like a resisting feeling and avoid an urge is here. Can I make some spaciousness make space for that as a feeling? And then you kind of transcend it. You look at now what is value aligned, what is wise-minded. Yeah, I know what I want and I know what I don't want. Let's go further. What's important to me? What really matters?

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Yeah. Ugh. I'm gonna have to push myself this Thursday. I got a dentist appointment. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

I have to make a dentist appointment. Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Shout out dentists out there. We love you. All our dentists. No, but I know it's on my calendar. And I turned it over and I was like, this week, I was like, ugh.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

Is it just a cleaning or yeah, but it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

It's something that no matter how many times I do it, yeah, it's one of those things where it's like it's meaningful. I hate it. Yeah, I remind myself when I'm there, take a picture of yourself so you can show the kids like how important it is to go to the dentist because if they don't want to go, like everybody's got to do it, right? Like, and just overall health, but it's always something that it's like no matter how many times I go, it doesn't get any easier for me.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

Yeah, I just do you find it painful?

SPEAKER_01 31:38

I don't it's not the pain, I find it very uncomfortable to have somebody else's fingers in my mouth. 100%. And it just makes me want to like gag. Yeah. Like it just makes me think, and and also I just feel like you're in like a compromised position with somebody who's just like over you. Like you're laying down.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

And it's vulnerable. And also, yes, and also just an annoyance factor is like, why are you talking to me? I can't talk back.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Like you're I you do you see what you're doing? Yeah. I can't talk back to you. So just all of it to me is kind of and always has been a really uncomfortable process. Yeah. Um, so I know I'm gonna be doing some pushing on Thursday.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

You know what some like super wealthy people do, like the Kardashians, they just like get put under every time they go to the dentist.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Yeah, I've never done that.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Which I don't know if you can't do it.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

I don't feel for a cleaning, it's yeah, or even just for a cleaning. And usually they can do it pretty quick. Yeah. I usually just put my AirPods in.

SPEAKER_04 32:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

And I'm just like hoping that they get the message that it's like, hey, like tap me on the shoulder if you need me to like do something, but like I'm just gonna be listening to my music and not engaging with zoning out. I'm hitting the eject button, like I don't want to be here. So so anyway, that just I for kind of forgot about it. Yeah, since we've been reporting, but I was like, man, I'm really gonna have to push myself every time a dentist comes up. I have to push myself.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

Yeah, because it isn't what you want to spend your time doing, and it's meaningful dental health, right? It's mental health, as Josh would say.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

It is for sure. It's so important. I don't even have to usually go, thankfully, that often, but it just is always like I don't want to go.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Yeah. I have to go. I have to make an appointment.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

And I've been sorry, that was a little tangential, but I was thinking in my life of like where I'm pushing myself, and I was like, oh well, in two days you're gonna have to really I'm literally gonna be waking up thinking because my appointment's at four. So I'm gonna be thinking about it all day. And just like, ugh, when is this appointment just gonna be over?

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Yeah, I I don't love it either. Yeah, there's things like that. I actually have a doctor's appointment on Friday or on Thursday, so solidarity.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Would you rather go to the doctor or the dentist? I guess it depends.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Yeah, what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Oh, I like the eye doctor.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Yeah, it's okay. As long as you're not dilated, it's pretty they kind of dilate me every time, and then they make me like follow this dot on this machine for like 45 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Do you get those sweet, like huge sunglasses which look awesome?

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Like just like rolling around.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Take a picture of yourself with those. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:27

The first time they dilated me, I it hadn't happened, and they didn't really explain it to me because I think at the ophthalmologist, they assume that you've been to an optometrist, which I hadn't. And I was just like, What is this? And then I like couldn't read my phone and I was like, what's going on? And then I looked in the mirror and I look so scary. Because you really look scary. Yeah. You kind of look while you're on drugs. Yeah. So that might happen to me Thursday. Take a second. While you're at the while you're at the uh yeah, great.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

I'll take a picture of him and I'll be matching uh medical appointments. Yeah, yeah. I think I'm going to the dentist on Monday. Oh. I I I feel bad if I've got this wrong. I'm not looking at my calendar right now. I'm about a hundred percent sure I have a dentist appointment next week. I think it's on Monday. You feel bad for the audience? Yeah, because they're gonna be looking forward to this. But yeah, if we record our pod next Tuesday, like we tend to do, um, you know, we could have a fun little comparing conch show and tell of our dentist of our teeth. Yeah, yeah. I'll show you mine, you show me your bring your x-rays.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

I'll bring mine.

SPEAKER_02 35:27

Oh my god. Yeah, I mean, yes, you definitely have to push yourself in those areas. And I'm trying to think too, like, you know, because I know I philosophically like do from time to time struggle with this like tension of like where, even with my clients, like, where am I encouraging them to let go and just listen in? And where is there kind of a pushing? Because I'll even notice, you know, sometimes with certain issues that come up, or maybe patterns of issues, I do go to the more pushing side where I'm doing a lot of coaching, you know, here's where you have to really push. Here's where you have to notice what you want to do. And I want to say surpass it, but that's the wrong word. You have to notice what you want to do, and what's the word I'm looking for? Like power through. Yeah. Override it almost. I you know, or like it's like you acknowledge it and then you kind of push, you know, forward toward what's meaningful, what's moving you toward your own goal, your own value. And it might be something you don't like, or something you don't even necessarily understand fully. You know, how how it helps. It's a complicated thing, it's like pushing yourself.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Yeah. I think a lot of it, a lot of probably the work we do is pushing people. Yeah. Right? I mean, it's like having people confront whether they're doing it at first or we're leading them in that direction, or even we're pushing them to explore things that they don't want to explore or experience.

SPEAKER_04 37:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Just in the therapy space alone, yeah. There's kind of like a pushing there, right? Or even, I guess, the slowing down if somebody's pushing too much or they want to I'm thinking about just like the therapy space. If they're like pushing too much an agenda or they want to go somewhere or they want to avoid a certain topic, or it's like slowing them down and saying you're pushing too hard there, right? We probably wouldn't use that language, but the idea of again, it's like they're avoiding something.

SPEAKER_04 37:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Were you to say something, Josh?

SPEAKER_00 37:49

I I feel like I yeah, I had a couple different things. I'll say one of them. So I feel like a word that comes up a lot in the therapy space uh I I'm the one who's not a therapist here. Um I don't know why I'm saying this, but I seem to think that this is worth saying. But the the word should.

The Problem With "Should"

SPEAKER_04 38:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

And I feel like was this in a show or a book? Where like the therapist is like, oh, it's that should word again. And I something rings true about that.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

Maybe your own therapist.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

Maybe my yeah, maybe my own therapist. I'm getting my own therapy sessions mixed up with uh media and you're both therapists, and it's all blending together. But like it is the word should ever wise, I guess is my question.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

Yeah. Well, I'm curious what you think, John.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

I would um it's definitely a word I would would not use in the therapy space, and I would be very mindful of bringing that um attention if somebody I'm working with is using that word a lot. Like I should be doing this, I should, right? Like that's something we would want people from my perspective to clue into. And um, because there's a lot of guilt, there's probably a lot of shame, blame, like all of those things. It's probably coming also from maybe programming that this person received from parents or care, you know, caregivers, culture, family of the things they should be doing, as opposed to the things maybe they want to be doing. Or I mean, certainly as a therapist, I'm sure Kelly would agree, we would never use the word should to somebody, like you should do this or you shouldn't do that. That's just not language that really enters into our minds when working with patients. Yeah. Because it's extremely invalidating. And also, I think it's when people use it in the therapy space. I don't know what you think, but that would probably be a moment to pause there and kind of like maybe notice it. Educate, notice it, what it's doing, where is it coming from, that type of thing.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

Well, yeah, you know, it's funny, like as like my my my first love dbt, other than Josh, my that's okay, my primary love. Um, you know, like should is so often like even I was even in strict DBT environments where even a consultation among clinicians, like if someone used the word should, it was called out immediately. That's a judgment. Because the idea being self-determination, right? Like deciding what's right to do based on what is meaningful to you and should does tend to imply like this moral judgment that's kind of outside of your own wise mind. You know, what what do you find meaningful? And given what you find meaningful, what are effective actions in that direction and what are ineffective actions in that direction based on what you care about? And I actually think that's often what like separates the kind of therapy we do as like counselors and social workers compared to maybe more like medical model type things, is like self-determination, really like what you get to drive this. And based on what you tell me you want, that's where I guide you. I'm not some like paternalistic arbiter of what's right for you. Nor is like society or your parents or your partner or friends or whatever, your government, anything. You know, it's what do you find meaningful and what's effective in moving in that direction? So maybe I think you bring up a good point that maybe when the pushing is often related to some kind of should, some kind of like moral judgment, like double tapping on that, opening up that concept with a client or with myself, right? You know, like where is this coming from this judgment? Do I really in my heart, in my wise mind, in my solar plexus, do I really believe that's right? Or is there just some part of me that's kind of has that programming, you know, that whatever, like I should exercise five times a week. Right. I should be thin. I should not have sex outside of marriage, I should, you know, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Work 80-hour weeks.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

Work 80 hour weeks, make X amount of money. I should go to the dentist.

SPEAKER_04 42:25

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Like all these things that we're talking about seem like they could be paired with a should pretty easily. And that's why I think that this is such a kind of mind fuck.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Yeah, but I think the that's where again, for me, it's about slowing it down and saying, okay, like your mind's telling you you should do it. Is there value in going to the dentist for you? If we took that word out of it, could you give me some of the reasons why going to the dentist without the if somebody's lost in that and kind of saying, well, I don't really know. I guess I haven't really thought about it. Then to me, that's a little bit more of like a point of, okay, well, where is that voice coming from then that's telling you you should go to the dentist? If the person can't identify for them that it's important, oral hygiene and things like that, because that's where the meaning is, then it could just be about educating them about like the way they're talking to themselves versus I think if they don't really know, if they're using should, but they don't know why they're saying, Yeah, I'm not really sure why I'm saying I should be whatever.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Yeah. And that I love that. And in that case, what I might encourage someone to do is like, until you know what you value it, yeah, can I challenge you not to do it?

SPEAKER_01 43:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

Like let's say it were getting a manicure every other week or something, you know, that's what you do. You know, and you know, why is that meaningful to you? If someone couldn't really say, I might challenge them to. And then they'd have to experience like if discomfort comes up with that, there's stuff to really mine there in the therapy space. What's it like to be imperfect in your appearance? What's it like?

SPEAKER_01 44:05

And there's a version of it where somebody could say, Well, that's my self-care and it's meaningful for me because it gives me an hour away from my family and my kids. And they, you know, and so if they have that built in, maybe, or it doesn't take much effort for them to think about it, then maybe it's just more about to me the educating about, well, maybe then let's loosen up the language. Maybe we shouldn't say should. It sounds like it's a meaningful thing for you. You love it, you know, that type of thing. You value it.

SPEAKER_02 44:31

Yeah, totally. Totally. I think I I like that. The the should brings an interesting element to pushing yourself.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

And people use that language all the time. Oh, yeah. People will should all over themselves.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Terrible joke, but yeah, should, yeah. They should all over themselves. Totally. I think such a foundational thing in the work I do with clients. And and just like with myself, my relationship with myself is like, where do I let go? Where do I open up space? Where do I tolerate? Where do I allow things? That's so much. But even that, I mean, it's effortful. It's sometimes the most effortful. It's the most pushing you do, it's a let go. I think. I I remember I heard um with a guy from Succession, Jeremy Strong, right?

unknown 45:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

He's the actor. Yeah. Mixing up. Jeremy Allenway, yeah, totally. Shout out to both of them. Um, Jeremy Strong was talking, I think he was on Mark Marin's podcast, and he was talking about in some acting class, they had talked about like presence. And they were like saying, you know, the most important thing is presence, you know, in acting. And they're like, and don't worry, it's just engaging in presence is like asking you to let go of everything there is other than this moment. You know, like it is a profoundly important and like difficult task to really let go of everything. If you think about it that way, when people are like, I can't, I can't my meditate, I can't get mindful. It's like, no wonder. I mean, it is incredibly difficult to ask you to shed everything. So it's okay if that's a struggle, it's okay if that's really imperfect when you practice that. But yeah, like that's an important place of pushing the like recognizing all the things we're clinging to and relinquishing. Letting go. Yeah. Totally. That's hard. Yeah. But important. Yeah, sometimes we're like, I mean, I I'm this client, I think, sometimes. Like I'm really comfortable, like avoiding.

SPEAKER_05 46:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

And like relaxing. I'm like very comfortable in. I don't even want to say it's necessarily stillness because that's like a little bit giving myself too much credit. I think it's like avoiding kind of puttering around. And you know, like sometimes things that are focused and effortful, I can yeah, I can avoid out of fear that it'll be too arduous, too, painful in some way.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

I think of letting go too much. The first thing that comes to mind is the people I work with when it comes to relational like boundaries. Yeah. They let things go too much, they let things go too far. Whatever that I mean, using their language, they would, you know, or in my perspective, maybe going too far, like just saying they're okay with everything and not pushing themselves to set a boundary that's going to be probably initially really uncomfortable, but effective for them and probably the other person, though the other person may not realize it longer term.

SPEAKER_03 47:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

So that's what comes to mind is like boundaries when people let go too much.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

Yes, that is a huge place where it's a struggle to push oneself, like when it comes to like honestly expressing a boundary that you hold within that you know is uncomfortable to share with another person. Yeah, I think that is a place to definitely push yourself, and it can be really hard.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

Really hard.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Yeah. Josh is giving me the eyes.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

Because it's never a one-time event, and very rarely, right? Boundaries are like ongoing, and so that's always and people are not gonna respect them and they're gonna push back on them.

SPEAKER_02 48:29

Yeah. I think the wise mind is balance, like the seat of values is balance in its nature, and it's getting

Finding Balance and Letting Go

SPEAKER_02 48:38

to that place. So yes, I think we are always seeking balance, but what does that actually mean? I and I think it I think it transcends definition a bit. I think it's a felt sense a bit more, as is when you're value aligned, when you're wise-minded, things feel aligned.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

I think it's hard to I would be careful about the word balance because to me, if that's we just want to be careful with that being like a goal, maybe. Because then people might strive too much for it. I know as a perfectionist, like I think trouble and even uh talking about it almost. Right. Um and we almost might feel more we might almost feel more out of balance the more we strive for it. Right.

SPEAKER_03 49:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

Because then we're just grinding it so hard and it has to look so like something that we have in mind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:35

So like harmony, peace.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Like the like that book The Happiness Trap by Russ Harris. Yeah, like that idea that like you know, we're it's a trap to be striving so much for happiness in our lives. Like we've been programmed, though, to think that that's what the ultimate goal is, right? But it's a trap because uh emotions are gonna change, and so the more we kind of like seek that out, like I have to be happy, I have to be happy, like it probably creates more chaos in our lives.

SPEAKER_04 50:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:05

As opposed to just being more open to any experience or any emotion.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

Yeah, that spaciousness.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

Whoa.

SPEAKER_02 50:13

So yeah, pushing yourself can definitely have value, especially if it's coming from the wise-minded directions, the value-aligned directions that you want to go. So listening inward to the wise mind kind of gives you that sense of where do I push? And where is pushing something moralistic, something that isn't true to me? And so much work in therapy is like what's actually true to you.

SPEAKER_01 50:42

Yes. You brought up Mark Marin. You know his podcast is ending.

SPEAKER_02 50:46

I know, I just saw that.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

I mean, we should take a moment of silence because the man how many like thousands of episodes, right?

SPEAKER_02 50:55

Yeah, I think he's been doing it for 15 years. Unbelievable. Wow, the king of podcasts. Yeah. I love Mark Marin. I I immediately became panicked that the library wouldn't be accessible of past episodes. I'm sure you can like purchase it or something.

SPEAKER_05 51:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Ugh, but God, is it so great? How many of those episodes are like etched into my mind forever? They're so great.

SPEAKER_01 51:21

It's wild to think of how much time he dedicated to that format. This format.

SPEAKER_02 51:27

Yeah. Oh my god, he's so great. So it's certainly and I mean if he needs someone to kind of like take up the mantle.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

Yeah. Or if he ever wants to be a guest. If he's ever Jones and for a podcast.

SPEAKER_02 51:39

Imagine. Oh, I would truly.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

Open invite. Stop by, Mark. Yeah. Mr. Marin.

SPEAKER_02 51:44

You know, he always like over and over on his podcast brings up like an attachment book, The Fantasy Bond, I think. I've never read the book, but he said it like changed his life and his relationship to his parents' divorce. I really, I gotta read it. Wow. Um, he said it's great.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

But well, I'm glad we recognized him because I just read that this week.

SPEAKER_02 52:06

That's why I'm so sad. Shout out to Mark Marion. Yeah. And the quote that I saw him say is, We're burnt out. Yeah. I thought it would be kind of like uh, you know, it's been years of wonderful, but it's so Mark, we're burnt out. Yeah. I'm done. Honest. Yeah, honest, which is great. Yeah. Okay. Well.

SPEAKER_01 52:26

Do we have a howise is a question?

SPEAKER_02 52:28

Oh, I didn't think of one. Yeah, how eyes is to break the rules, and sometimes maybe we're gonna push ourselves to not have one this week.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

Yeah, and people to come up with their own. Yeah, we're gonna push you, the listener, to think about your own how wise as a question.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

Yeah, do a little work for us. Come on now.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

We'll leave it at that.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

We'll leave it there. Thank you so much, everyone. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 52:50

Thank you, Blake and Fords for the music.

SPEAKER_02 52:53

Yes, shout out. Um, if you want to reach me, um, you can find me at my website, kkpsychotherapy.com, the contact page there.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

Email me at butzbutz. Jonathan at gmail.com. We'll see you all soon. Next week. Thanks, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 53:08

Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 53:09

Yes. Thank them already. Oh, thank him again.

SPEAKER_02 53:15

The Wisemind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.