FEAR OF THERAPY

Therapy is scary. If you're a therapist, if you're a client...SCARY. (Sorry we're releasing before Halloween.) We discuss some of the most common fears and delve deep into the rabbit hole of the vulnerabilities that therapy can unearth.

💿 music by blanket forts 💿

Transcript

Catching Up On Life Lately

SPEAKER_05 0:04

Welcome to the Wise Mine Happy Hour. I'm Kelly.

SPEAKER_03 0:08

Hello, I'm John. Welcome back.

SPEAKER_05 0:10

Welcome back. We're back. We're here.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

No place we'd rather be.

SPEAKER_05 0:16

Yeah. Tell us what's new with you guys.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

Got our spindrifts.

SPEAKER_05 0:20

Yeah, we got our spindrift. I got a grape.

SPEAKER_03 0:21

I got uh one of those we talked about it last time. Barry Bellino.

SPEAKER_05 0:26

Bellino.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

Which is very, very satisfying. Um, what's new with me? I saw some college buddies over the weekend, one of which you know, Tommy.

SPEAKER_05 0:35

Tommy, shout out to Tommy.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

Tommy, one of our great guests of the show. Shout out Tommy. I know he's listening. So I saw him and my friend Quinn, who we did an episode now with him. We did a gratitude episode where I spoke about a gift that he gave me. Some tennis shoes. So these were guys from college. I went up to uh Quinn's house. We did some fishing, which was great. Yeah. It was awesome. We listened to fish as well. So which was amazing. Um, I caught five fish.

SPEAKER_05 1:07

Really? Like wild. Fish you could really eat.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

Well, we didn't eat them. We we honor the fish. We catch and release. Catch them release. Okay. And I don't know if they are edible from where we caught them, but uh because it was a toxic waste. No, I'm kidding. But yeah, we were fishing and just hanging out, and it was great. Here's Tommy with his. Oh, wow. He has a huge one. There we go.

SPEAKER_05 1:33

Whoa, yours is huge too. What do you think of that? And if you weren't gonna honor the fish, you could eat that.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

I guess. That's bass. Bass. Sure. Sure. I don't take him off the hook though. You don't. No, I made Tom do that. Oh, I was gonna say. Tom did the dirty work. Wow. So I had it on the line, brought it in. He's a little more like country. I don't know about country. Or like nature. Yeah. Yeah. But maybe that would be the word for it. He's also just more willing in that respect. I didn't want to smell like fish. Oh, God. Yeah. So he and Quinn were the ones taking him off the hooks. But it was a great time. We got to revisit a lot of old memories, talked about our lives, where we're at, our kids. Um, it was really, really nice. And then the next day on Sunday, Shane had his first baseball game.

unknown 2:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:17

Wow, I didn't know he was playing baseball.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

He is. He's on a team this year. This is his first year of organized baseball.

SPEAKER_05 2:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

And he pitched two innings, five strikeouts.

SPEAKER_05 2:27

Whoa, he's a pitcher and five strikeouts.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

Yeah, they rotate the positions. And so you the coach is great. Maris, if you're listening, shout out. She gave all the kids a handout with all of the positions, and you had to circle or X out what you did or you didn't want to play.

SPEAKER_05 2:46

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 2:47

And word was going around from the practices that they've had that Shane, some of the parents have been like, Shane's a good pitcher. And they're like, He's never played before. It was no, he hasn't we not organized, like we throw the ball and everything. He plays with his brother, wiffle ball, whatever.

SPEAKER_05 3:02

He's the natural. It was the natural.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

So it was great. We so we went there, and you know, Sarah and I are really nervous. We're like, How's this gonna go? Um and he crushed it. I mean, it was it was wild, and it wasn't even like it was one of those moments where you felt like he really grew up in in one moment almost. Like it was such a new thing. He was out there doing it on his own. He could only rely on himself for it. And I'm not trying to make this into like some metaphor for life. You know, it that is a huge thing for somebody who's eight, you know, years old. It's like out on the mound, everybody's looking at you, everybody, you know, like expecting stuff. And he and he really showed up. It was great.

SPEAKER_05 3:44

Oh, I love that. It's like if he had a coming of age movie, that would be a key scene.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

That would be a huge scene. So yeah, all around Grey would be the idea of the year. Literally. So we're taking contract calls now. So if I don't pick up right away and you're listening, squealing and dealing.

SPEAKER_05 4:00

Yeah. I don't know. But that was uh that was really just uh I played softball when I was young and I famously loathed it. If the coach was like circle what you want to play, like I would have circled the bench. The bench. I would have been like, yeah, I'll just sit here.

SPEAKER_03 4:15

Uh my home isn't on this handout. Yeah, wait a second. I want to circle next to the TV. Yeah. Um like, oh, that's funny. Uh, you you all went to New York.

SPEAKER_05 4:24

Yeah. We went on a little trip to New York for Josh's sister and brother. Well, my sister-in-law and brother-in-law, Josh's sister and brother-in-law, both turned 30. They're married and they turned 30. Jeez. Like, kind of like a month and a half apart. So they had a turned 30. I don't. We definitely were the oldest, like, except for you know, Josh's mom.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

And this was your sister we had on the pod? Yeah. Oh, yeah. She just turned 30. She just turned 30 What did you think she was? I just she, I don't know. I didn't, I thought she was older than that. Not in a bad way, in like a very mature, like I don't even want to say mature. That sounds stupid, but sophisticated. Yeah, exactly. Didn't seem like, oh yeah, moving to New York soon. And it didn't seem 30 vibes. Yeah. Maybe I'm thinking about when I was 30 and I felt like I didn't really have it together. But totally same. Wow. Good for her.

SPEAKER_05 5:16

Yeah, yeah. So they had a big birthday in New York. So and we went a little early to stay with my friend, my good friend. Um, shout out to Leah. So I spent a couple of days with her and her kids and her husband, and then Josh met me. We like were uptown staying with my friend, and then the party and the hotel was downtown. So we kind of went all over New York, which was fun.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

And downtown.

SPEAKER_05 5:41

Uptown and downtown. I did not see any celebrities, which often when I'm walking a lot around New York, I see someone.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

Right.

SPEAKER_05 5:48

Because I kind of like look. But I didn't see anyone.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

I'm intensely staring at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_05 5:53

I'm really trying to see walking by someone is famous.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

When you say uptown, is that Billy Joel uptown girl?

SPEAKER_05 6:00

Uptown girl. Yeah, my friends, two little ones are definitely uptown girls. Um, they're like Upper East Side. Okay. Oh my god, it was so fun to be with the kids in New York. It's fun to see little New York City kids. City kids. Like, yeah, like run in the streets. It is so fun. You've seen this more than me. Like friends that you like went to college with and knew, like at that stage of life, like seeing them become parents and like how they engage. It's like it's such a fun thing.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

Tommy, this coming weekend is taking his oldest to college.

SPEAKER_04 6:32

Oh my god, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

Which just even hearing about that as an emotional roller coaster ride, just hearing about it secondhand, I was getting. I think he he wasn't upset in that moment. Yeah. He was saying how it kind of hit him the week prior to seeing us really hard, and you know, starting to have the thoughts of, oh, this is gonna be my last Friday night with you know, Miles being home and you know, those types of but to your point, seeing your friends and their parenting journey and how they interact is so cool.

SPEAKER_05 7:05

Yeah, it is so cool. And I I don't find myself, it was funny the juxtaposition of like hanging with my friend and her kids and her husband and doing all that kid-centric stuff, and then switching to like big 30th birthday where everyone's like young and like drinking a lot, and like I'm on a fertility journey, so I'm not drinking. And the juxtaposition was kind of funny, and I had such a nice time at the party, and and it was, you know, like Josh's mom did did it up, you know, who's been on the pod too. Shout out to Alisa. But I found myself like, you know, when you're like 37 and everyone else is like much younger, I was looking around, kind of like I I am really ready to kind of transition out of that phase. Yeah. I almost maybe this is so lame, but I almost feel as excited to like hang with the kids. Well, and also like I'm not drinking, so that like changes the vibe of it. But it is so fun, especially in 2026 with like all the horrors of the world, to like talk to a little kid and like say, like, what did you do at school? And she's just like, We I played with bubbles, yeah. And like with the excitement of like she like stood in front of the Grand Canyon, like I played with bubbles, and maybe tomorrow I'll play with bubbles. Everything is exciting. Yeah, it's so fun. Yeah, it's funny. And like I know I'm still gonna want to like go out, you don't have to worry about that. I love that stuff, but like I'm not like on this fertility journey, like heading toward parenthood, hopefully. You know, I'm not doing that feeling like, oh man, I'm really gonna miss the other phase. Like, and maybe that's also a function of my being 37 and not 27 and like having a baby. Sure. I do feel like, oh, I I'm ready for this, and I'm really excited about like a different focal point.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

I remember being 27 and being like, God, these 37-year-olds are so lame. Like, I can't believe they're going home. But they're here being home before midnight. Who do these jokers think they are? Like and just being in that zone of I'm gonna do this forever. Yeah, and then it completely turns around and right. It's like, yeah, you like to go out every once in a while.

SPEAKER_05 9:20

Yeah, we were like packing up our stuff in my friendliest apartment, and she and Josh were both like on their phones on the bed, like, and all three of us were talking as I'm like putting stuff into my suitcase. I'm like, this is heaven, like this is just so fun to just like hang and kind of do nothing and chit-chat. Oh, and we got my friend's oldest daughter this fall outfit, this little, like I have to say, adorable little sweater. She saw it. She's two adorbs. She saw it. I she was howling to put it on. I've never seen a little givet into clothes. She wanted it. She likes colorful things. I think that's her whole thing. She didn't like the jeans I got her. She was like, kind of like, no, I don't want these.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

You got her hard pants?

SPEAKER_05 10:04

I basically got her hard pants, yeah. But she was obsessed with the sweater. It was too hot for her to wear, it was really humid, but she like wanted to wear it to school. It was so cute to see her that happy. Oh my god, it was kids.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

What was the howling? Can you do the howling thing? It was like that.

SPEAKER_05 10:21

It was kind of like, oh mama, mama. Like she, you know, shaking her hands like toward the sweater. And she's like, okay, we'll put it on. We'll put it on.

SPEAKER_02 10:28

It was so I need this immediately.

SPEAKER_05 10:30

I need the sweater. We last time we got her this like pink sweatsuit. Like, I I love getting kids stuff like their parents would probably never buy them, like a kind of a goofier, like trendier outfit. Yeah, that's kind of my goal is to get them stuff that like is a little unique so they kind of remember I mean selfishly so they remember me. Because it's at the end of the day, it's all about me. It is. Yeah, but yeah, it was it was a really fun trip, and the party was so fun. And we walked so much. New York, you just walk. It's like even if you try to not walk there, let's say you like had an injury or something. Good luck. You're walking. I mean, it was like 14,000 steps a day to just get from A to B.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

That helps with mood for those of you out there. Get more movement. Totally. Get more steps in.

SPEAKER_05 11:15

It was pretty hot.

SPEAKER_03 11:16

Humid.

SPEAKER_05 11:16

Now we're now we're rail thin.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

Is it was it humid there?

SPEAKER_05 11:19

It's humid. Yeah. It's kind of like stickier than here. And like gross smells worse there because they don't have alleys.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

So the all the trash is just everywhere.

SPEAKER_05 11:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:30

You're not selling me on New York. Haven't been there yet. Those are the types of things that I would say, go in the fall. Don't sell me on it.

SPEAKER_05 11:36

I mean, I truly love New York. You gotta like the grittiness of it and the expense. Can't wait to go. Okay, let's move into our topic

Why Starting Therapy Feels Scary

SPEAKER_05 11:45

here.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

Um scary stuff. This is pretty spooky.

SPEAKER_05 11:49

I almost we could have had a flashlight for this.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

We should have had this be our Halloween episode of this coming fall.

SPEAKER_05 11:54

Oh my god. Honestly, that kind of would have been perfect. Maybe we could do a version. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:59

Yeah. So we're gonna be talking today about um why you might be scared of going to therapy.

SPEAKER_04 12:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

As two therapists and people who go to therapy, right? Starting therapy, engaging in therapy is scary.

SPEAKER_05 12:14

Did you, before you ever went to therapy, did you have any fear around it? Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 12:19

And even just fear of the unknown, what is the room gonna look like?

SPEAKER_05 12:24

Right.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

Who what's the person gonna be like in the just even Yeah, like am I gonna kind of feel safe in the space? Can I say no to a question?

SPEAKER_05 12:35

Yeah, almost like there's like straight.

SPEAKER_03 12:37

Yeah, there's like no choice. If I go in there, if I'm signing forms, if I'm doing this, almost like a um going to confession.

SPEAKER_05 12:46

One hawk type of where it's like Yeah. Did you ever go to confession?

SPEAKER_03 12:50

Well, I was raised Catholic. I had to. It's one of the sacraments. Right. When did you get confession? I got it in fifth grade as a sacrament.

SPEAKER_05 12:57

We got it in second grade.

SPEAKER_03 12:59

Did you? Because I got first reconciliation.

SPEAKER_05 13:01

We did reconciliation and then.

SPEAKER_03 13:03

Oh, first communion was a first grade or second grade?

SPEAKER_05 13:06

I think it was second. Oh, maybe reconciliation was first grade then. It was first reconciliation, then it was second grade.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Oh wow. Yeah, I think they did it in fifth for us.

SPEAKER_05 13:13

Well, that makes a lot more sense because I was like little, being like, I was mean to my brother, and then like a pre-school extremely judgmentally. I broke my mom's dish.

SPEAKER_04 13:22

It's like I stubbed my toe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:25

And it was very like, think of something kind of bad that doesn't seem like a lie, but like not something you're actually gonna get judged by. Yeah. I definitely was afraid. And I mean, I didn't go to therapy until I was in grad school. You know, I mean, I could have used it earlier, but I definitely didn't. And I was nervous. I think I felt exactly that. Like, oh my god, they're gonna have this like window into everything. And like, what if there's things I'm not ready to share? That I'm in. I was definitely like worried about feeling embarrassed in front of the therapists for like things in my life or choices I made. That definitely was scary.

SPEAKER_03 14:00

And also just the embarrassment, your own embarrassment of some of the things. Yeah. You know, when you start thinking about what would I talk about? I don't know that I don't know if I'm gonna talk about that. That's kind of embarrassing. Totally. I'm the only one who's thought this, or I'm the only one who's dealt with this. And you know, being on the other side of it, being therapists, yeah, you're not really gonna shock us. Oh god, no. After this many years, right? Combined, we're probably coming up on how many years? 35 years, if not more, 40 years of therapy experience between me and you. So it's like just like your your brother's a doctor. Right. Yeah. He's probably not gonna hear something that's gonna be, oh my god, I've never heard of that before, right? Even though I know he's got a specialty, but still he right. It's like it's almost the same feeling of if I share this, yeah, they're really gonna think I'm they're gonna think I'm the worst or like not treatable or weird or yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:56

Yeah, I I remember when my therapist, they you know, when you use your insurance, you have to be diagnosed with something. And she like handed me a paper. She explained that to me, and then because I wasn't yet seeing clients, I was still in grad school. So she handed me a paper. I I was like shaking. I was like, I don't know what I thought she'd put on that paper, but it was like generalizing anxiety or adjustment or right, right? Yeah, I didn't get adjustment disorder.

SPEAKER_03 15:23

Maybe that was what I was hoping for, but I I got for those who don't know, it's a pretty mild, yeah. It might not be clear-cut G A D. We're looking at adjustment, maybe.

SPEAKER_05 15:33

And then I was like laughing at myself, like, this is fine. What do you think she was gonna say? You have a fucking personality disorder, like I don't know, right? But yeah, I was like, and really every diagnosis is unknown.

SPEAKER_03 15:44

Yeah, we don't know yet. You are a stumper, remains to be seen.

SPEAKER_05 15:49

But yeah, definitely felt fear. Maybe even like I feel like someone told me before I went, maybe I like voiced having a fear, and someone was like, I mean, you could just lie, like you don't have to tell the truth. Like if you just want to like try it out, right? Just lie if you don't feel comfortable. And honestly, that felt really comforting.

SPEAKER_03 16:07

It does. I think that, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:08

Yeah, I've even said that to clients before where I'm like, if you're truly uncomfortable telling me something or unwilling to tell me something, like that's your choice. You know, you I'll even sometimes now in an intake say, like, if there's anything that could be like a therapy topic and you know, and here you don't you're not ready to cover it, you don't want to cover it. Sometimes I'll say this with trauma. Often I find it like takes the air out of it, and they finally do want to talk about it because they know there's permission to not, there's no pressure. Yes, you know, there's no me like desperately trying to like figure out something bad about them or whatever. So I have like meat on the bone. It's more like this is your space. Like, if there's something you don't want to tell me, you have full right to to hide it, truly.

SPEAKER_03 16:56

I mean, it's wild to think that we've done this podcast for so long and we didn't think to do this topic really. Yeah, I know. I feel like that's almost a parallel process of our relationship as friends where there's not really much preamble. We just kind of get into stuff immediately. So I wonder if this is a reflection of just me and you more than anything.

SPEAKER_05 17:15

I know.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

I'm we're a normal person who's listening to our podcast would be like this should be episode one.

SPEAKER_05 17:20

Yeah, fear of therapy.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

Totally. Fear of therapy before two therapists talked about it. We did like guilt and shame, like like episode three.

SPEAKER_05 17:27

Deep, profound shame.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

Yeah, but I I do think I I'm hopeful that the people are listening that this episode, all kidding aside, is is more validating the experience, and and whatever you're experiencing, the fear that you're having is completely valid, and also everybody experiences that. Yeah, and to some degree or another. And you know, hopefully we can maybe dispel a few of the things, or or even if not dispel it, just kind of say, yeah, and and we still want to see people, right? Even if they are fearful, we can talk about that.

SPEAKER_05 18:00

And I mean, I went from fear of therapy at the very beginning to like my therapist goes on maternity leave, and I'm like, God damn it. I'm like scratching my skin off. Right. Like wanting to see her. I love therapy, I truly love it.

SPEAKER_03 18:14

You're like dying for that next session to come um some weeks. Oh yeah. Other weeks you're like, I don't know. But sometimes you're just craving it.

SPEAKER_05 18:24

I feel like it's been transformational for me, but like, of course, I'm like so on board with it. But let's look at some common feelings.

SPEAKER_03 18:32

So I just found this article. This is from calmclinic.com. Um, so maybe we should just read real quickly just a little bit. But some of the common reasons, we'll start with the first one, is why you might be scared of therapy.

Fear Of Judgment And Diagnosis

SPEAKER_03 18:44

You're concerned about being judged or shamed.

SPEAKER_05 18:47

It's a funny thing to to like approach a space with like, I want to process these shadows I'm holding on to, these, you know, difficult experiences, my relationship with myself, but then to the actual therapist. I mean, your your relationship to therapy and the therapist is like reflective of how you relate to the world. So yeah, that fear of being judged by the therapist, it's incredibly common. It's almost like healthy in a way. Because whatever you're talking about in therapy honestly should sort of be shameful. Like it's like if you're going in and like there's nothing difficult to do. Yeah, I see what you're saying. It's like maybe you may not really need this.

SPEAKER_03 19:28

Right.

SPEAKER_05 19:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

Yeah, there's something indicated by that deep discomfort that that's probably something you want to be looking at in the therapy space. And certainly some of those things you probably don't share with anybody or have never shared with anyone before. So that fear runs real deep of are they gonna judge me? They're gonna think I'm crazy. Yeah. Some of those other things like I'm not treatable, they've never seen somebody like this before. Right. I'm too fucked up, I'm too like, yeah, I'm broken, all of those judgments and and feeling like that's gonna come into almost now that I'm thinking about it, almost like this is the final stop. Yeah. Where this could really be a moment for somebody to get that confirmation about themselves. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_05 20:17

By a professional.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

And so imagine building that up. Yeah, the fear that you have of like, what if I actually step in there and that comes true? Yeah. And somebody says that, right? I mean, that's yeah, devastating to even play that out in your head. Not that a therapist would do that, but you don't know. No. So that's that can be monumental to overcome.

SPEAKER_05 20:35

If a client comes to you and you can really sense that they are like really fearful about being judged, yeah. They they're walking around with a lot of shame. Maybe they're even able to verbalize it a little bit. What are some things you do to maybe make them feel a little more comfortable, a little more safe?

SPEAKER_03 20:57

Maybe just reflecting back to them, noticing the discomfort and the trepidation, and also just opening the space. Is there, you know, we could have a long runway to really get into some stuff? And maybe what's something you would just like to touch on today, right? Even if it just feels a little bit safer for I mean, even using the word safe, right? We don't have to go digging immediately. So is there something upcoming in your week that's stressing you out? That maybe we could even just chat about. So I think a little bit more of the informal and and I hear you, I see you, and I'm okay with going at a little bit more of a slower pace. So I think even that can get some of the pressure off. Yeah. Sometimes, right?

SPEAKER_05 21:38

So you do not have to like dump this all out here. Right. What do you feel okay with? Yeah. Bringing in. And they might say nothing. And it's like, then just listen, you know. Small talk can be incredibly therapeutic. For sure. Building that safety between you and the client for a while, sometimes before there's any need. For them to share anything.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

Because there is power dynamics there, right? And so maybe giving that away a little bit and saying, well, why don't we start by you asking me some questions? Like what are some things you want to know about this process? Or what are some things you want to know maybe about me? Not in like they're going to ask deep questions. They might like use that as an opportunity.

SPEAKER_05 22:22

Totally to dig.

SPEAKER_03 22:23

But just maybe a little bit of like my style, or could I tell you more about my experience? Is that something that's important to you? So give them a little bit of the control in that. Love that so that they can, okay. I'm kind of maneuvering the plane here.

SPEAKER_05 22:37

And um I'm not the one in control here. You are. And I'm just gonna guide us. But anywhere you don't want to go, we don't have to go. Right. Even as a therapist, like the way you dress sometimes can be like, of course, you want to look like you've like thought about being professional, but I mean that's pretty loose in our industry. And sometimes like being more casual and kind of comfortable in what you wear helps put people at ease a bit. Yeah. That matters to me. I mean, I obviously like want to express myself at the same time, but it's it's a dialectic of you know what might be disarming for people. Yeah, if you're in like a full suit, they're gonna think you're a psychiatrist.

SPEAKER_03 23:18

Put the tie up. Yeah. Oh man, I've I've slowly just given away ties. I don't really have that many ties anymore.

SPEAKER_05 23:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:27

Do you have like one for like a wedding? I have one that I keep. That's really all you need. That's pretty much all you need.

SPEAKER_05 23:32

Wait, okay, this is a tangent. Do you know that at Uniquel you can buy a suit for like 250 bucks men?

SPEAKER_03 23:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 23:40

And they're like not half bad.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

Yeah, I don't I only know that. I don't know what they're like.

SPEAKER_05 23:45

I heard this literal fashion journalist say he bought one last year.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

There's tons of stuff that's extremely affordable.

SPEAKER_05 23:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:52

So they're taking advantage of somebody.

SPEAKER_05 23:53

So for us to think about.

SPEAKER_03 23:55

The next point was you're

Opening Up To A Stranger

SPEAKER_03 23:56

worried about opening up to a stranger, which I think that falls in line with the fear. Where do you even start? What if you can't find the words? And therapy is a big waste, quote unquote, of time. You may also worry that your secrets will get out once you start talking to a counselor, or maybe you'll become too overwhelmed with emotion and embarrass yourself.

SPEAKER_05 24:14

I actually hear this one a lot when people have to switch therapists, you know, like telling everything all over again to another stranger.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

How much backstory do we need?

SPEAKER_05 24:28

It's a great question. Yeah. In different cases, I feel totally differently.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Right. Because some people we work with think there's never enough backstory. I need to give you every single detail of the backstory. Yeah. Which to me, that always is like you're just avoiding whatever's going on right now in the present. Totally. Or you're looking for the therapist to give you some sort of corrective experience that didn't happen in the past. But some people are really fixated on you. Need to know every single detail of everything that led me to this moment.

SPEAKER_05 25:01

Right.

SPEAKER_03 25:01

Yeah. So that makes sense about the transferring. Yeah. Where it's like, oh, I gotta tell this new therapist everything. It's like, well, you might not.

SPEAKER_05 25:09

Yeah, like it's almost follows that paradoxical logic of like if you have the urge to tell your therapist everything, you probably actually need to say less. And it's like if you're the kind of person who's like, oh yeah, my parents are cool. You know, it's like you need to say more. It's all and really I think it's like if you can see if you can let the therapist guide a bit and just ask you questions, kind of just gently point you with questions.

SPEAKER_03 25:35

Putting the onus more on the therapist, not putting it so much on yourself. I think people maybe are taking on way too much and saying, Well, I where where would I even begin? Or yeah, what do I need to say? Or, you know, you're going to a therapist who has skill in in the ability to elicit you talking.

SPEAKER_05 25:52

And and so um And I notice like what I really want is the raw data. And I think some people have been to enough therapy that they're giving me, or maybe listen to enough podcasts like ours. Um, they're giving me interpretations of their backstory. And I'm sort of like, oh, I want to hold off on those a little, like the way a psychic is like, don't tell me. Don't tell me. Don't tell me. I'm a little more like I want to hear the data and just kind of let sit with it. Yeah. But that's of course hard. It's like I'm sure I'm do that. I make interpretations of my own experience. Because, you know, if I've developed them over years of therapy with someone else, yeah, or just reflecting on my own life, it's like that is important. Yes. But sometimes, like in the very first meeting, I I have this fantasy of like holding off on all of those and just like getting the data.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

And I think there is utility in therapists that give people paperwork before they come to the session. Oh, yeah. Because that also can guide. Well, I don't know what to talk about. Well, if you filled out at least some form of a questionnaire or an intake, that's already giving your therapist enough material to start getting the conversation going.

SPEAKER_04 27:02

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

If anything, we want to talk about stuff too fast, probably.

SPEAKER_04 27:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:06

Opening up to somebody who's outside of your family or your faith base or things like that is very seen as um, that's a faux pas, right? Like you don't do that. So the idea that you would be going to someone who's a complete stranger, uh, people's certain people's identities that are very counter to that. Right. People carry narratives with them about this stays in the family or this um you prey on this, or you you know, a lot of other ways than going to a complete stranger, not only a stranger, but you're paying the money to talk to them. So anyway. Okay, number two. This is really this is ding ding ding.

Not Wanting To Feel Pain

SPEAKER_03 27:44

This next one, you don't want to face your emotional pain.

SPEAKER_05 27:46

Yeah, this is the big death.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

This is the biggie. Yeah, it should have been number one, bro. Totally, I'm sure. It's like the classic reason. This is the classic.

SPEAKER_05 27:54

Who wants to face their emotional pain?

SPEAKER_03 27:56

Uh nobody. Yeah, yeah. People will do anything.

SPEAKER_05 28:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

To not to not come to therapy.

SPEAKER_05 28:02

To not face, and like I get that.

SPEAKER_03 28:06

Oh, yes. Yeah. That's probably the biggest fear. Right. Is looking at these painful things, whether it's certainly the emotions, but also the things that people have done. Yeah. The things that people are currently doing in their life. Right. We already talked about the shame. I mean, all of these things are interconnected. Yeah. But it's gonna bring it's a painful process. We always talk about it's not you can't go around it, you gotta go through it. Right. And so this emotional pain is gonna be there.

SPEAKER_05 28:32

Yeah. Yeah. And like I come from the school of if you hard knocks. Yeah, the school of hard knocks. I just kind of yell at my clients to face their emotional pain. Face it's abusing. Face it. No, but I come in truth. I come from the philosophy that like if you have a part of you that doesn't want to face emotional pain, it's because somewhere facing it has been really awful and painful. And so I I completely understand the desire to avoid it. And I, there's a lot of work to be done at the beginning of therapy to talk about how like that desire is okay. And we just kind of like warm up the water a little bit and talk about like what could be the purpose that you align with for facing it, even if it's uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:25

What can it offer you to face it? It actually can make the pain less painful, less scary, you know. And then you can also talk with them about like, well, let's go with that. If you avoid your pain, what have you noticed? Like, does it tend to go away? Yeah. And maybe they'll say, like, in the short term, yes. And it's like, okay, that's true. And really in the long term, that isn't one's experience. If it is, I might say, okay, we'll go with it. Right. But really, in most cases, it it only kind of grows and bubbles under the surface and it becomes harder to avoid, more cumbersome to avoid, takes more energy. It takes over your life. Yeah. So we're offering this kind of like alternative just option of like approaching the pain and moving through it, like almost like feeling it kind of, you know, like that's the like somatic experiencing idea of like feel it to completion, kind of, so that you can actually feel like, oh, I'm capable of this. I trust myself to feel this and be okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

And also making it clear that some of the emotions you are avoiding, right? Those urges are going to come up in this space in real time, right? Like, because we're going to be facing some of this stuff. And so part of this process is for us to work together on when when I'm noticing that, right? How are we noticing together? And how are we still sticking with that or feeling it through to its completion, right? Because a lot of the things you're avoiding outside of here, you might have the urge to do that in here as well. Yeah. It's so painful. It can be. Right. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:09

I I find it painful and incredibly cathartic, but yeah, definitely painful. Yeah. For sure. So yeah, another another fear that's completely well-founded.

SPEAKER_03 31:22

Well-founded. And people are very, uh, you know, I hate I'll put this in quotes, but good at finding ways to avoid emotional pain. Yeah. Right. If we're thinking about the behaviors as function, well, a lot of the behaviors we end up engaging in do, to a certain extent, mostly short term, probably give us a reprieve from the pain, right? And is that working for us? Usually people get to a point where it's just not working for them. And then that's when that's why they're there.

SPEAKER_05 31:49

They're there, yeah. Yeah. And you work with that piece of data. You always say this, you vote with your feet.

SPEAKER_03 31:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:55

There's at least a part of you that wants to face your emotional pain if you're sitting in this chair.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

If you're sitting in this chair, you're here. Yeah. There's something in you that knows whatever's going on, right? We we gotta look at this in a different way.

SPEAKER_05 32:08

Yeah. Yeah. You know, that almost like you know how people think like if you're a therapist, you're just like analyzing people 24-7 or thinking everybody should be in therapist. People always think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 32:17

We should do an episode on stereotypes of therapists. That's definitely what we're doing.

SPEAKER_05 32:22

Oh, yes. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 32:24

Write that down. Hey, producer, get to work over there. Write it, write down all these gems.

SPEAKER_05 32:28

To me, I'm like, if someone out here is like doing this shit, like they're numbing their pain or they're like difficult in their relationships and they're not in therapy, I'm like, and someone might be like, shouldn't they be in therapy? Or whatever. To me, I'm like, I mean, if you're ready to go, then you should be there. Right. You know, it's like if you're numbing your pain and finding that that's what you want, it's like I'm like, that's your choice, you know? Right. I almost feel more like I don't want to analyze anyone who doesn't want me to do that. Yes. I feel like that sounds really awful. Right. And like a waste of time.

SPEAKER_03 33:00

Yeah. Yeah. This uh next one we already mentioned a little bit, but mental health stigma is

Stigma And The Weakness Myth

SPEAKER_03 33:07

holding you back. So stigma is one of the biggest reasons people don't start counseling. They don't want others to judge them as being weak or incapable. Conditions like depression and anxiety may magnify self-doubt and make you feel self-conscious. You may feel too embarrassed that someone may see you walking into a counseling office or ask where you were. So certainly stigma is a huge one as well. Right.

SPEAKER_05 33:27

Yeah. And even now, like it's there a bit. It kind of depends on your like geographical region and stuff and your like socioeconomic status and all these different factors, but there definitely is stigma.

SPEAKER_03 33:41

For sure. And I'm hopeful, I think there's been a huge shift since I came into the field. I I graduated grad school in 2006. I mean, I I think mental health stuff, and it's a byproduct of so many different things, including social media and just things that have happened in our world. But I just think mental health is talked about so much more. Yeah. And if anything, it might even be skewing in the direction of everything is mental health related. 100%. There's even that version too. Yeah, that's almost like swung the other way, where like everything is a trauma or everything is uh, you know, the a diagnosable type of condition. So and that doesn't mean that stigma doesn't still exist, right? And people's judgments.

SPEAKER_05 34:21

So parents who are like, if you go to therapy, it means you're crazy.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

Right. Or it means you're broken. I've had patients sometimes say, if I tell my parents I'm going to therapy, they are like, Well, you're just gonna talk about how I messed you up, or what I I was such a bad parent. You need to go to therapy. That type of reaction to it as well. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 34:44

It'll like hurt them and they'll either get defensive or they'll kind of collapse.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

Or they are the sole cause of the reason you're going to therapy.

SPEAKER_05 34:53

And then it's sort of like this reaction is exactly why I'm here.

SPEAKER_03 34:56

Right, right, right. Totally. And it is because of them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:01

Um well, yeah, it's like it's a whole ecosystem of things. Right. But yeah. Yeah, it's true. And I think that I mean, God, that is more common than than one might hope. Is it even still true that like if you if you use your insurance and you go to therapy, like you get like less good like life insurance rates or something?

SPEAKER_03 35:20

Uh that can't possibly is that true?

SPEAKER_05 35:22

I have only once heard.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

I don't know why my first reaction is that can't possibly be true, which probably insurance companies probably it's true.

SPEAKER_05 35:29

I mean, I They're looking for devious ways to get you, not correct.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

You would think that that's not acceptable, but yeah, I don't know. Maybe.

SPEAKER_05 35:38

Well, to me too, it's like if we really zoom out, it's like in this world with the political situation, the violence. Who doesn't need therapy? Like, if you don't need therapy, like you're just wrong.

SPEAKER_03 35:51

Certainly geographically, we we live in a city where you walk down any block, you're seeing a private practice on every block. Yeah or a group practice or a building that rents out to professional buildings, like right. And it is a privilege to be able to have that many therapists saturated in kind of like one area, and there's still a huge need. But yeah, you know, if you live in a place that maybe doesn't believe in mental health or there's not as many practitioners, I could see the idea of like someone seeing you that what it says in this article may see you walking into a counseling office. Like that wouldn't strike me as hot at all for a lot of reasons in Chicago, but there's only one two therapists or psychiatrist in a small town, like there might be a lot of embarrassment there or totally internalized stigma with that.

SPEAKER_05 36:39

Yeah, and it's like one of the stigmas too is like you're weak. Weakness, yes. And when that comes up in my mind, I always immediately I don't always share like this depending on the case, but I'm like, it does mean you're weak. Like it means your weakness like is truth and wholeness. And it's like the whole journey is like embracing the weakness and fragility that it is to be human and knowing that it's right next to like a ton of strength. And that like weaving of those together is wholeness. But you really have to like hold that dialectic. Yeah, and that's a complex thing. So to me, it's like the weakness is the brilliance, like when you really like let go of just like hardness and strength is when you really like grow and have like rich, deep experiences and healing. I I really think that, you know, but I like that like provocative language, like weakness and you know, it really you could say vulnerability, but yeah, it's the same kind of thing of like I'm not invincible against things and that's okay. Yeah, you know, it's like I'm in this human body, like it's okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:53

Well, and even that would be fertile ground to explore. Like, what does weakness mean to you? What have you been told about weakness? Right, right? How does that impact how you view yourself? Like, what would it be like to say, yeah, part of me is weak right now? Yeah. Well, what comes up even if you were to embody that? So yeah, there's so much there that could be explored as well, but that comes up so much totally. I'm weak. Yeah, yeah, I should be able to do this on my own, or yeah, all of those types of narratives come up.

SPEAKER_05 38:25

Or sometimes it's even just like you're embarrassing the family.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

You're embarrassing the family for sure. Or you're I've always been the black sheep of the family. Yeah, yeah. Right. This last one here says, and there's there's many other reasons, I'm sure, not necessarily in this article, but um, it says

Will Talking Make It Worse

SPEAKER_03 38:41

you aren't sure how counseling works or how it can help. And I think this last sentence kind of strikes me. It may seem like talking about it so much would make you feel worse, not better.

SPEAKER_05 38:49

Oh, what a great point.

SPEAKER_03 38:51

Yeah, yeah. It's like all I'm gonna do is sit there and just keep talking about this. All I do is think about it all day. Why would I even want to talk about it then or do anything, acknowledge it even more? It's just gonna make me feel worse. So I think that's a common thing.

SPEAKER_05 39:04

And I honestly think it's like a responsible curiosity to have. Because like I do think there is a risk of okay. Oh, for sure. In in like the wrong hands or like in certain contexts, it's worth like owning that that's a possibility.

SPEAKER_03 39:22

If if goals are not defined or not as much active participation from the therapist perspective. This is just my own thing. Yeah, yeah. It might feel like what I'm all I'm doing is just talking here. Totally. You know, I there was a group of therapists that or a school of therapists, whatever you want to call it, that you and I, you know, knew for a while, um, that would say kind of like processing is ruminating out loud.

SPEAKER_04 39:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:52

And I think there is a version of that. I think if if if you as the therapist allow somebody to just continue to be in that space and that zone without any of the challenges or the nudging or the noticing for them while also validating, yeah, there's an art to that that if you're not doing it, it it is gonna feel like somebody's just sitting in their shit the whole time. Right.

SPEAKER_05 40:17

Yeah, just suffering.

SPEAKER_03 40:19

Right. Yeah. And sometimes people will feel quote unquote worse after a session. Yeah. That's fair too. And I think that's something we have the onus of telling people. Yeah. Yes. Like you might not feel great every time we end, right? Right.

SPEAKER_05 40:36

Or the opposite that you're describing. If you ruminate out loud, you might kind of feel better for a second. Yeah. And then often it's a there's a a back end to that, and and you stay kind of stuck. And it and and the responsibility of the therapist is like some, even if it's difficult, reflecting of that and kind of offering these other ways to go.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:01

Noticing with curiosity, reprocessing some things, you know, some feedback that might not be so easy.

SPEAKER_03 41:09

You know, my dirty little judgment when people say process is ruminating out loud is what those therapists don't know how to process. Yeah. That's on you. That's not on the patient. So you always think you gotta take some responsibility for that.

SPEAKER_05 41:22

Yeah. I think that sometimes comes from people that are a little bit afraid of like the openness.

SPEAKER_03 41:27

Oh, yeah, sitting in it with them, right? They gotta look at their own clinically relevant

Other Fears And Fear Of Change

SPEAKER_03 41:32

stuff that's coming for them, right? Totally and kind of get a handle on that. But that's whatever. That's neither here nor there. Yeah, that's my own little bias on that.

SPEAKER_05 41:40

Okay, well, those are some fears. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

Any others you can think of off the top of your head? I'm trying to think. I mean, certainly cost, I think time can be maybe those aren't fears, maybe just more logistical, and maybe and and those are founded in reality. Um, but I think also fears maybe. Did we talk about this before? We read an article about maybe um fears about speaking to somebody who's younger than us or older than us. Yeah. Or if I'm a man and I go to a woman, there might be fear there.

SPEAKER_05 42:10

Yeah, like we won't be understood.

SPEAKER_03 42:12

We won't be understood, yes.

SPEAKER_05 42:14

They won't get it.

SPEAKER_03 42:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:15

Oh, and I, you know, I have a real thing with that where it's like you don't get it. Like, I really sometimes I get in this place where it's like, nobody gets me.

SPEAKER_03 42:24

Nobody gets me out here. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

SPEAKER_05 42:27

Yeah, like I that's my whole thing is like I just want someone to get me.

SPEAKER_03 42:31

I just want them to get it.

SPEAKER_05 42:33

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

What does that even mean though?

SPEAKER_05 42:35

Well, it's like it means different things on different days. It's like maybe that is what I'm wanting, and maybe that's like ridiculous. Or it's like, I think there are moments where it's a totally valid desire, and I want to be sort of like seen and just because I will I will say my new therapist, like she does a really good job of being like, I mean, it makes complete sense what you're feeling. Like that anyone would feel that. And I'm like, man, I didn't realize how much I needed to hear that, you know. Like in this moment, I don't need to be challenged for a second. At least I just need someone to be like, these feelings are right, totally human and valid given this moment. Yeah, makes sense. Let's just explore them and honor them. And then it's like then I'm kind of instantly ready to look at like where to go next.

SPEAKER_03 43:23

Yeah, it's almost like you're ready to defend your position, and yeah, it throws you off balance when somebody is right there with you and saying, Yeah, no, it makes a yeah. You almost I I it's for me, it would almost be like, Oh, I thought I was gonna have to put up an argument. I thought I was gonna have to I thought I was gonna have to like defend this point, and somebody's actually like hearing it and seeing it, and yep, no, makes total sense. It's like, whoa, okay, now I gotta recalibrate a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 43:47

There is, of course, like the fear of getting better, you know, the subtle unconscious fear. Yeah. Because when we get better, things do change in our lives, and sometimes that's in itself scary relationship. Relationships can change.

SPEAKER_03 44:02

100%. I think that's also a fear that comes up when partner relationships. Oh, you're going to therapy? Are you are they going to make you, you know, like uh are they going to want you to break up with me or tell me I'm a bad partner?

SPEAKER_05 44:15

Who among us hasn't thought that.

SPEAKER_03 44:16

You know, so there's a lot of fear when one partner starts going or is going, or you know, and and what are they talking about? Are they talking about me? Am I the issue? Am I, you know, so I think there's a lot of fear even when you're not the one in it, but you're a part of a system where somebody is a part of it. Yeah, totally. It's tricky. But yeah, change. Oh my God.

SPEAKER_05 44:37

That deserves kind of its own meditation. Yeah. But yeah, those are some of the fears. Let us know if you have any fears about this. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 44:46

Please know that we want to work with you. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:51

Fears are welcome.

SPEAKER_03 44:52

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 44:53

And believe it or not, you can come to therapy not ready to talk and just explore the fact that you don't want to talk. And that's fine too. That's fine.

SPEAKER_03 45:01

That's a step too.

How Wise Is Lying On Resumes

SPEAKER_03 45:02

I love it. We're going to move into our how-wise is.

SPEAKER_05 45:04

Yeah. Okay, so our how wise is it today is how wise is it to lie on our resume. Or like in the interview process.

SPEAKER_03 45:14

Job interview.

SPEAKER_05 45:15

Job interview process.

SPEAKER_03 45:16

Either way. Hmm. How wise is it? What's a lie? Yeah. A lie of omission? I mean, I think those are fair game.

SPEAKER_05 45:26

I think in this case, we have to think about a lie as like actually verbalizing something untrue.

SPEAKER_03 45:31

So if we're going the route of interview for a job, how wise is it to lie? I don't think it's wise. Okay, tell us. I just think then you're gonna have to like remember that. You're gonna have to pony up from a sheer let's take values out of it. Yeah. Let's take that out of it. I think from a logistical standpoint, you better have all your shit in order if you're gonna start lying in an interview and hope that nobody's checking up on that. Right. Because you don't want to be that person who gets found out. Yeah. Right. And then there's the whole thing, I mean, and then there's value stuff, which I just think that's not the best for me personally, to not be honest with you. Honestly. In an interview.

SPEAKER_05 46:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:17

Um, I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 46:19

It's an interesting dilemma because it is an area where lying is now, I'm not saying this condones it, but it's like is fairly normalized. For sure. Like, or they I've even heard like actors talk about this where it's like, if you don't lie, you like won't get a job. And it's like you just kind of like fluff it up a little bit. I acted in this, I've done this technique, I've whatever. Or like, I know how to use like Excel or whatever, you know, like Photoshop.

SPEAKER_03 46:50

I think I would be more prone to, oh, you have a gap in your resume. Oh, yeah. Well, I was exploring I uh some of my options, like luckily from my previous job, I had enough financial security to like take some time off.

SPEAKER_04 47:04

Yeah, whether that's true or not. Right. I hiked in Tibet. That might be a lie. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_03 47:10

But how can you fact check that really?

SPEAKER_04 47:11

Right.

SPEAKER_03 47:12

You know, so I think I might be more prone to like I'm omitting a little bit. Like, no, I was actually or embellishing, I was really like hustling to get a job here. I wasn't taking time off.

SPEAKER_05 47:23

I couldn't get arrested.

SPEAKER_03 47:24

Yeah, that so Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:27

It's like it's tricky because I hear you. Like, if you you cannot say I speak Spanish, you know, and then you're gonna have to pony up, like right.

SPEAKER_03 47:35

Or if you say, like, I made this, this was my title, I made this much money, and then they call your HR, your previous employer to verify, you know, and and maybe they can't give financials, but they could be like, No, that wasn't his title here. Like, yeah, this dude was making widgets. He wasn't doing anything.

SPEAKER_05 47:50

Worked in the basement, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:52

It was shoveling coal to keep it as warm as well.

SPEAKER_05 47:55

I'm actually speaking of this, I knew a friend of a friend who lied about graduating college, like they had gotten far, but they actually didn't get and their job found out about it and they got fired.

SPEAKER_03 48:04

Well, yeah, what I mean, of course.

SPEAKER_05 48:06

Yeah, or my dad even told me there was a guy who who lied about when it lost.

SPEAKER_03 48:09

Well, I guess who does really check on if you graduate?

SPEAKER_05 48:12

I think you'd be shocked how often it they it they don't bother.

SPEAKER_03 48:15

Well, of course, I'm I'm not. Yeah, who bothers to say did this person go to college? When we interview people, right? Do you ever think that when you interview?

SPEAKER_04 48:25

I I never think that once have I checked it.

SPEAKER_03 48:27

I look at the resume, I see the whatever. Oh, okay, great. They have an MSW or they have right, and then I just believe it.

SPEAKER_05 48:35

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 48:36

Whoa.

SPEAKER_05 48:37

I think people are like proping and praying for some of that, which none of that's wise. Like to not go to college and say you went to college is like pretty crazy.

SPEAKER_03 48:45

I mean, do people don't even really, I mean, who knows? What am I speaking of here? But do people even check on people's licenses if they're active?

SPEAKER_05 48:56

I think I think that's a negative.

SPEAKER_03 48:58

That's a negative.

SPEAKER_05 48:59

I think unfortunately.

SPEAKER_03 49:00

So Kelly and I, for those of you out there, we hold a license in the state of Illinois that needs to be renewed every two years in order for us to do what we do. Right. And you have to fulfill certain requirements to renew that. Yeah. And there's the Department of Professional Regulation in every state where you should be able to check somebody who has a license, an active license. Right. But does anybody check that?

SPEAKER_05 49:23

I think it's like some people do and some people definitely don't.

SPEAKER_03 49:28

Whoa. Yeah. My mind is blown that you knew somebody who just said they graduated college and they did oh yeah. And got a job.

SPEAKER_05 49:35

And got a and got a very good job. Wow. And then lost it. How did they find out? Oh, here's what it was. They printed over fake documents. And then in the very final stages of it coming together, the person did in fact check. Wow. Yeah. Now what made them want to check? I think it's like ultimately not wise, but like I get it. Certain lies and certain types of jobs. Like, I could see saying, like, oh yeah, I've worked a lot with that thing, and I like did it once.

SPEAKER_03 50:12

Well, that's where it gets okay. I trained two people in something, right? And then how do you phrase that in an interview? Yeah. Do you just say it, well, I've only trained two people on that?

SPEAKER_05 50:24

Or do you say, like, I have a lot of experience in training?

SPEAKER_03 50:26

I have a lot of experience training people.

SPEAKER_05 50:28

Yeah. I would say the second. Right.

SPEAKER_03 50:31

It wouldn't literally be. It's not really the true. It's not a lot. Well, because what is a lot? I'm curious, John. Dicey thing. This is dicey.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

We live in a cruel world. Okay. You gotta lie.

SPEAKER_03 50:45

You gotta lie.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

You gotta lie to get by, or you're gonna get caught with your pants down in the capitalist C.

SPEAKER_05 50:51

Well, have you had experience with this?

SPEAKER_01 50:53

I have lied. I know. I have gotten beautiful jobs where I was coveted.

SPEAKER_05 50:59

But your lie was about like a program.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

My lie was about saying that I knew how to use Avid, which is Josh Come Clean film programming software. I'm the editor of this podcast. I'm a professional editor. I had used it on one project five years before that just to migrate the project out of Avid to use it in Premiere, which I was more comfortable with. So I had used it just to not use it, if that makes any sense. So we get out of it.

SPEAKER_05 51:26

So you have contact with it.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

I had watched YouTube tutorials for hours of how to use it. I think I had edited a really small project in Avid to feel ready for it, but nothing on the scale of what I was about to do. So I guess as I'm saying it, it wasn't the biggest lie I ever could have said. But I think what I said was, yeah, I I use Avid, I'm in Premiere, no big whoop either way. I do both.

SPEAKER_03 51:51

I'm an avid user.

SPEAKER_01 51:53

I think I also lied when I was trying to get a food service job right out of college because my editing career wasn't quite as rich. And I said that I had been a delivery driver for a closed-down Papa Romano's in West Bloomfield. I love this facility. No way to check it. I didn't close. I didn't get any jobs. It actually closed because of me. I burnt it down.

SPEAKER_05 52:14

I burnt it down with my acumen.

SPEAKER_03 52:16

Would you like me to join your team?

SPEAKER_05 52:18

I remember when we were early in David. That's great. You were like, I mean, there was a time after college like I couldn't get hired even at a restaurant. He's like, oh, University of Michigan. Go boo. That is crazy sometimes where you're like, I can't work at a restaurant.

SPEAKER_01 52:31

I can't even work here.

SPEAKER_05 52:32

Yeah. Oh my God.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

I don't really have any skills other than editing, and I don't even really know how to use Avid.

SPEAKER_05 52:39

You do. This is the thing about you. You also know you're an incredibly fast learner.

SPEAKER_01 52:44

But I was so nervous.

SPEAKER_05 52:46

Yeah. I was shitting bricks. Yeah, I remember that.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

And I think once I'd been through the first week or two, I turned over a couple cuts. They said I was a speed demon. Yeah. And I realized, wow, I should continue to lie. Reinforced. So I think it's wise.

SPEAKER_05 53:03

But you wouldn't lie about having worked on a doc you didn't work on.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

No, I Papa Romano. No one can look online and see that I haven't used Avid.

SPEAKER_03 53:13

So maybe more around like, yeah, fluffing up skill sets.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:17

I guess mine technically fell in the exposure to something. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:22

It was a nerve-wracking fluff.

SPEAKER_05 53:24

There are places in society where it's like lying is like the normative behavior. Like, don't they say at the doctor it's like you have to multiply someone's drinks?

SPEAKER_03 53:34

Yeah, right. That is like an uh saying where if you're you're right, if you're doing like health history, you're interviewing somebody. Yeah. In terms of their drinking, you like multiply it by, I don't know.

unknown 53:43

Three?

SPEAKER_03 53:44

I was gonna say two, but I don't maybe not two. You add a certain number on. Yeah. Because multiplying by two. Yeah. Like if somebody's like, I'm drinking six beers a night, you they're really drinking twelve. I mean, that could be the case, but eighteen. I thought it was like just add like a couple, add three or four or something like that. Yeah. Anyway, lying.

SPEAKER_05 54:04

Line.

SPEAKER_03 54:04

You gotta lie.

SPEAKER_05 54:05

Some places in society, I even didn't listen once to this philosophy podcast that kind of said like nobody goes the speed limit, and you're like right to do that. Like, because it's like you understand of it without being married to the literal interpretation of it.

SPEAKER_03 54:20

So it's like a zone.

SPEAKER_05 54:21

Yeah, it's almost like uh an advanced form of like understanding of like the literal is less important than the thing.

SPEAKER_03 54:28

In the wrong hands, the our liars are loving this right now. I'm actually advanced because I like it. Right.

SPEAKER_05 54:36

But if you do think about it, like being truly truth can be like you know, where it's like if you tell someone exactly how you felt about attending their wedding, if you didn't like it, it's like, okay, that's really not wise there. You know, we kind of just say, like, it was great. You know, even if it was like it rained the whole time and whatever.

SPEAKER_03 54:55

I it could also be advantageous if you're like, you know what? Um, oh, you're gonna get back to me in a couple weeks. Well, I actually have a couple of offers right now. I need to know sooner than that. 100%. It's like you don't have any offers, but yeah, I actually have people banging down my put a little pressure on them, gain some power back.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

Yeah, really, yeah. I broke the seal.

SPEAKER_05 55:16

I think it's really, it's like uh it's a big thing. I still think it's not that wise.

SPEAKER_03 55:20

You gotta be careful with it. I think overall, if yeah, if you're in the zone, if it's not that quote unquote specific, if it's not major of something somebody could check on, like your degree, yeah, that's that's just crazy to me.

SPEAKER_05 55:34

I mean, crazy. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 55:36

They have that whole TV show suits where the guy pretended to go to law school. Is that what the premise is of that show?

SPEAKER_05 55:41

Yeah, he's just like really smart at taking the LSAT.

SPEAKER_03 55:44

It's like catch me if you can that movie.

SPEAKER_05 55:46

I mean, a hundred percent. It's like that. I love that movie.

SPEAKER_03 55:49

Do you?

SPEAKER_00 55:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:50

Oh, but then they found out a lot of that stuff was lies.

SPEAKER_03 55:53

Did you know that? Frank Abendale?

SPEAKER_05 55:56

Yeah, they found out like it's like, oh, he taught his class, like that never happened.

SPEAKER_03 56:00

Oh.

SPEAKER_05 56:00

Like he kind of just like lied about a bunch of stuff. That's part of it.

SPEAKER_03 56:03

So it was very much fictionalized. Yes. You know, sometimes I just don't like Leo, and then sometimes I really like Leo. Yeah, dude. And that was a movie where I was just kind of like loop along. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:15

I I feel you on that. Like I'm trying to think where I haven't liked him.

SPEAKER_03 56:19

But then I really loved him in one battle after another. I mean, it was amazing.

SPEAKER_05 56:23

Yeah, sometimes it's fun if he's like not charming.

SPEAKER_03 56:26

Right.

SPEAKER_05 56:26

He's like pretty gritty and like unlikable.

SPEAKER_03 56:29

I I would agree with that. I think it's more palatable for me.

SPEAKER_05 56:31

Did you like him in Titanic?

SPEAKER_03 56:33

I think the better question is, did I like Titanic?

SPEAKER_05 56:35

Did you?

SPEAKER_03 56:36

No, not really. Too long. I mean, yeah, it's long. I think it didn't hit at the right time in my life. I think I was like a sophomore or a junior in high school.

SPEAKER_05 56:44

Yeah, that would hit for you if you were like a uh into Leo. Like, you know, yeah, you dated me.

SPEAKER_03 56:53

And we were like, Jesus Christ, like, can we do something else?

SPEAKER_05 56:55

Like my sister-in-law saw 13 times.

SPEAKER_03 56:57

Oh, yeah. I mean, it was crazy. That was what you did. Yeah. And I just was not, it was like I went the one time and I was like, wow, that's a long movie. Yeah. Just two VHS tapes for Christ's sake. Right. Anyway, um Okay.

Write In And Where To Find Us

SPEAKER_03 57:12

Well, write us in on your best lie. Yeah. Or your worst lie.

SPEAKER_05 57:15

Your worst lie, like your thoughts on it. It's a curious thing. It is curious. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:22

Well, you can find me at butzbutz. Jonathan at gmail.com. Email me questions. Let us know how you're doing.

SPEAKER_05 57:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:30

Let us know your fears about therapy, and we can discuss them. What about you?

SPEAKER_05 57:34

If you want to reach me, you can find me at kkpsychotherapy.com. Um, you want to work with me? You want to be on the pod? Do you want one of us sticking on your pod? If you have questions, yeah, anything, find me at kkpsychotherapy.com. How about you, Josh?

SPEAKER_01 57:50

I'm still online, but we're not gonna talk about my website today. We're gonna talk about my YouTube channel. Oh yeah, the YouTube channel.

SPEAKER_05 57:59

You could talk about both.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

Okay, the website's easy. Josh Bayerfilms.com, Bayer is in the aspirin, B-A-Y-E-R. But check out my YouTube. It's JoshBayerfilms.com. It's at Josh Bayer Films, B-A-Y-E-R, as in the Aspirin Films. And uh, I've been doing I've been talking about music on here for a while. Guess I haven't been talking about it as much lately because I'm doing music reviews on my YouTube channel, and I don't want to feel repetitive. So if you want to check it out, you might really enjoy it.

SPEAKER_00 58:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:34

This week's a three-peat. We got Phoebe Bridgers, we got open Mike Eagle, we got Lorraine. Three albums, all very different, all worth listening to.

SPEAKER_03 58:44

No howdy, huh? Not the new howdy. Have you listened to the new howdy? I was listening to it. Um have you heard it? I haven't heard it yet.

SPEAKER_01 58:51

Well, that'll be for your next round, your next batch. Might be this week, but geez. Yeah. Three reviews in a week. And someone asked me to review Crosby Stills and Nash, self-titled, so really four. Love it. Go in the Wayback Machine. Yeah. So that's my so that's my two cents.

SPEAKER_05 59:08

Yeah, yeah, and and for people, they're the reviews he used to do at the end of our episodes, he basically made into a YouTube channel.

SPEAKER_01 59:15

Which they're great.

SPEAKER_05 59:16

And they're great, they're very funny.

SPEAKER_01 59:18

There's also you could look on the YouTube channel why Brave Little Toaster is actually a horror movie, or why Barney's actually a horror movie. Wow. Or even a super cut of seasons one and two of Goosebumps. I love it.

SPEAKER_05 59:30

Yeah, little horror series.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

Little horror show, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 59:33

Okay. Well, thanks everyone, and thank you to Blanket Force. Thank you to Blanket.

SPEAKER_03 59:36

Thank you to Blanket Force as always. You take care out there.

SPEAKER_05 59:40

Yeah, take good care, and we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_03 59:42

See you next time. Do lots of love.

Closing Disclaimer

SPEAKER_05 59:45

The Wise Mind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.