The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
interpersonal effectiveness: DEAR MAN
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No, DEAR MAN is not a feminist manifesto. It's a DBT tour de force. Designed for interpersonal effectiveness and developed by psychologist Marsha M. Linehan, its primary goal is "objective effectiveness"—helping you ask for what you need, say "no" to unwanted requests, and navigate conflict while keeping people on your side. Describe, Express, Assert, Reinforce (DEAR) all while being Mindful, Appearing Confident, and remaining open to Negotiating (MAN.)
Back In The Studio
SPEAKER_01Hello and welcome to the Wisemind Happy Hour. We're back. I'm John.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we're back. I'm Kelly.
SPEAKER_01It's good to be back in the studio. Welcome.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_01We took a week off. You all didn't. You recorded, right?
SPEAKER_02We recorded. I was saying this on the episode we recorded, but it was my fault. I wasn't feeling well. So then I rescheduled it. Or we tried to reschedule it, but you your wife was out of town. So we out of town. Josh and I did a little mini episode basically.
SPEAKER_01Did you use the whole time to talk about me?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we basically just talked about you. Like, what do you like about John? What do you struggle with? Skills to use. Skills to use when you're with him. Yeah. How to tolerate exactly. That would be funny. It's like a good episode. Just talk about like how to deal with this person.
SPEAKER_01Like we could do each pairing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Me and you talk about Josh.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You and Josh talk about me. Me and Josh talk about you.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01We could do all those pairings. I would love to hear that. Behind closed doors. Except it would be open.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It'd be open. It'd be pretty public.
SPEAKER_01We're first gonna do likes, yeah, dislikes.
SPEAKER_02Like a sandwich. Likes, dislikes, strengths.
SPEAKER_01Strengths, weaknesses, skills to cope.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That sounds like a dynamite episode.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
TV Picks And Oscar Amnesia
SPEAKER_02No, we actually reviewed this TV show called Vladimir. I don't know if you've um Vladimir, no. It's like a Rachel Weiss vehicle. It's good. It's on Netflix. I think you'd like it.
SPEAKER_01She's the she's married to Daniel Craig. You might think another right one. She is. I like her. I just can't think of anything she's in. I can totally picture her face.
SPEAKER_02She makes like daring choices. Like she was in that movie The Constant Gardener.
SPEAKER_01Oh, The Constant Gardener. That's right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02She was in the favorite, which is like a Yorgos Lanthemos movie. Like he, you know, he does. And Abma Stone was in that movie too. The Fountain. The Fountain, yeah, which was about like the Fountain of Youth.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's about a Fountain.
SPEAKER_02Who directed that?
SPEAKER_00Do you know? Darren Aronofsky.
SPEAKER_02Oh, he did.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Was Brad Pitt in that? Um, can't say. No. I'm thinking of a different movie.
SPEAKER_02Oh, was it Ray Fines or something? Or was he in the Constant Garden Garden? He was in the Constant Garden Garden. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00He is the Constant Gardener. He's constantly gardening.
SPEAKER_02Oh, he is.
SPEAKER_00He's constantly in that garden.
SPEAKER_01He's constantly gardening every shot of the movie. Green thumb, you call Ray Fines. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's one of those movies where I'm like, I remember like the images from the Oscars, but like I didn't really know what it was about.
SPEAKER_01The constant garden. Did you see it? Yeah. Yeah, long time ago. Yeah. What was it about? No, no recollection. Okay. Do you remember? I feel like it was some kind of noir. A noir. What a spy-ish thing? No. I think follow the plot, but I liked the cinematography. Yeah, maybe a missing person type situation. Um, let me look this up.
SPEAKER_02I know, I'm curious. She yeah, she picks interesting stuff and she's a good actress.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I thought it was a spy thing because it was based on a John Lacarr novel who wrote Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy. The story follows Justin Quayle, a British diplomat in Kenya, as he tries to solve the murder of his wife.
SPEAKER_02Okay, yes. I so somehow that did get it.
SPEAKER_01Right. An Amnesty International Activist.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yes. Okay.
SPEAKER_01I got a lot of really good reviews, right? And I I it's interesting because neither one of us can really remember it.
SPEAKER_02That's what's so crazy about like Oscar-winning movies. Like, it doesn't always like determine their like staying power in the cultural context. Right. There are so many movies like that, and then there's some that just like stay in your mind.
SPEAKER_01Like you think that movie was just so huge that year, and then just like faded. Right.
SPEAKER_02It's gotta be sad, like when you're in movies like that.
SPEAKER_01What was that one movie that really Diving Bell on the Butterfly? No, it was controversial, that it was so popular. It was different narratives about different people, one of them being a cop. Um crash. Crash.
SPEAKER_02The movie was god-awful and it won the Oscar. The guy who made it was even like, it really shouldn't have won that year.
SPEAKER_01Oh, really?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Paul Haggis, who is an ex-scientologist.
SPEAKER_01That's telling.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I read an article. He was like, I have no idea why it won. He's like, it should have been broke back mountain. And I was like, I can't believe those were the same year.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it came out the same year.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, talk about a movie that was like so like designed for like third graders to learn about like racism, but not even really learn about it in a nuanced way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's also, if I remember, pretty problematic in a lot of it's the different things. Yeah. So it was almost trying to teach people something yet failing at it. Right.
SPEAKER_02God, sometimes the academy.
SPEAKER_01If you would have said which of those two films was made first, I would have said Brokeback Mountain by five years. I didn't know those came out at the same time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think they were the same year. I think that's crazy. And Brokeback Mountain was very the opposite where it was.
SPEAKER_01Oh, how heartbreaking is that? Yeah. I saw it in the theater and just was insane. It felt like I got punched in the stomach.
SPEAKER_02And it was a lot of like showing you rather than like hitting you over the head with some like a lesson.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it was so deeply moving, it just was so sad. Yeah to me. It is so sad.
SPEAKER_02I know, like, and it was was a sad movie, and like anything Heath Ledger was in now is like so sad. I know. Oh boy, yeah. Yeah, we really didn't know. He was so great. We did, we did. So we could lighten it up. Lighten it up. What's going on with you? Yeah. I mean, I know. I'm like, what is light and exciting with us? Well, okay, I have a story that's not that light and exciting, so maybe let's start with you. How have you been? Good. Yeah, what's been going on the past weeks?
SPEAKER_01Good. Things are great. Good. I've been seeing well, uh this weekend Sarah was out of town. She went back home to Philadelphia. So it was just me and the boys. She went on Saturday. Um, so the boys and I were just hanging out. We went to a block party Saturday night. The boys nice went to a block party, got some bot bellies. Yeah. This block party at both ends had ounce houses. Oh, two yeah, at both ends of the block.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01They had an ice cream truck. Oh they had live music, they had people playing live music. I had to get up really early. With Shane, he had a baseball game.
SPEAKER_02An early one.
SPEAKER_01Wes was really, really dragging that morning because he had had a sleepover on Friday night.
SPEAKER_02Okay. One of his Oh, the day the next day after is the word.
SPEAKER_01So he was just a mess. He was a wreck. So Sunday morning, he was just complaining
Crash Vs Brokeback Mountain
SPEAKER_01and I don't want to go. I was like, why don't you just stay home? Like, just stay home. So this is the threshold now that I'm crossing with him, or I'm like, you have the tin can, the phone. Yeah, just call me if anything comes up. I trust you.
SPEAKER_02He was just by himself. Oh nice. It was great. And it wasn't like destroy that.
SPEAKER_01No, not at all. Right before I left. And I don't know, I trust him because he's very honest. I said, no pads, no TV. No TV. I was like, if you're gonna sit home, if you're this is what you're choosing, you gotta occupy yourself. Some read a book, you gotta do something else. I was like, go back to sleep if you're really that tired.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01No screen.
SPEAKER_02And was it like an honor system?
SPEAKER_01Like you just I just trusted him. I just said so. Wow. I want to believe that he did that. I mean, he was reading when we got back, but nice. Yes. Wow. I know. So it's kind of exciting to think he's transitioning into that part of his independence.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's exciting. Wow.
SPEAKER_01And then we actually went to the Cubs game that afternoon. Oh my god. We didn't stay for the whole thing because we had to get home for kickoff of the Packer game.
SPEAKER_02Oh, of course.
SPEAKER_01A complete nosedive, and they ended up losing. And my house was not in a good place. A lot of crashing out in my house. Crashing out. Um, as the kids would say.
SPEAKER_02Oh, did they like cry and stuff?
SPEAKER_01One of them did. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Oh.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So, and it was me. And it actually was me. It was me. They were soothing.
SPEAKER_02Growing up, like if my brothers were upset about the game, they went more to anger than Oh, that was a part of the crash out.
SPEAKER_01It was a whole mix of emotions. Um and after words, we we got it together and then just talking
Parenting Wins And Sports Meltdowns
SPEAKER_01to my boys about you know, if this happens again, what's the most useful thing I can do? Yeah. Meaning if they ever lose again. No, if they lose again and my kids can't tolerate it. Oh, I see. Yeah. Very unlikely.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I doubt it'll happen.
SPEAKER_01Very unlikely that the Packers will ever lose again. Because we know the Packers, if and when your reaction is such what would be most of the flooded. So uh the one that kind of crashed out more said, Don't talk to me. And I said, Okay, okay. That's fair enough. I'll let you go through your emotional turmoil.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I gotta just feel it. Which makes me think, you know, this has been going around a while in my head. How wise is it to be a sports fan? Yeah, you know, which maybe we'll cover at another time, but it's just a lot of heartbreak.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Depending on the team.
SPEAKER_02But it seems like it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I can't think of anything equivalent for me to that.
SPEAKER_01It's such high highs and such low lows.
SPEAKER_02The only thing coming to mind is like if I finish a really good book and I'm sad it's over. But that's like different. That's like the season ending and feeling sad. It's not like losing a game.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I don't know what would be similar.
SPEAKER_01There's just so much emotional energy invested in that three-hour span. And then a lot.
SPEAKER_02I know we've gone
The Air Conditioner Fiasco
SPEAKER_02for a while now. But Josh and I had like a major mishap with an air conditioner. So our upstairs air conditioning broke. Which is hell. And we had guests coming that weekend. Because Josh and I started to sleep in the downstairs guest room because it was so hot. There was a day it was 96 degrees up there.
SPEAKER_01Well, and we had recent heat wave. Yes. That heat dome.
SPEAKER_02It literally happened right with the heat wave. Josh was up there. I was worried he was gonna like pass out while I was working. He's like, I'm okay. But I was like, I'm worried about you up there. And the landlord, bless his heart, we do really like the landlord, but he kept insisting like the upstairs one just struggles on hot days. He's like, I used to live in the unit with my wife when we remodeled it. Like she likes it cool. It wasn't cool on the really, really hot days. Like the machine just struggles to keep up and it's kind of like an attic space. So he's like, it's just on the hot days, it's just gonna be a little hotter up there. And like there were times that felt true before this. Other hot days. This was like, this thing's not working.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was gonna say, Are you okay with that explanation? Well, I'm just curious because don't we all struggle on the hot days and we still do our thing? Totally. Can't the air conditioning do its thing? Or does that mean it needs to be replaced because it's struggling? Well, so I'm not putting fuel on the fire here.
SPEAKER_02Well, after a while, well, I said to Josh, I was like, it's just so hot. Like maybe we should just say fuck it and go get a window unit.
SPEAKER_01A window unit.
SPEAKER_02And put it because people do that, right? Like as an extra thing.
SPEAKER_01Sure, or you could get one of those. It's not, it's kind of a window unit, but it has that tube that comes out.
SPEAKER_02Uh so we there's one sitting upstairs right now. But first, the first chapter is we I was just like, let's just go to Home Depot, get a window unit. Meaning, Josh went by himself and got it. I just like it.
SPEAKER_01Meaning Josh, go do that.
SPEAKER_02So Josh got it. It was so heavy, it was so heavy, it was so heavy. And I was like, I think we can do this. I I spearheaded this whole like hare-brained idea, but I was like, you know, we can put this in here, the two of us, easy peasy. I've done it before, which I haven't really done it before. Like my dad did it, and I was like standing there. So we can it before.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I've watched somebody do it before. I'm an expert. So that's a classic Kelly, right? We put it on how to do it.
SPEAKER_02I just want it, so I just watched it. Force somebody do it. Yeah. So I put it, we put it on the window, and it's now not stable on the window. That's what we're doing. We also cannot get it off. Yeah. Because it like hooks, it's a special kind that like hooks on it. Yeah. And like the window was such teetering. It was like teetering such that we were like, it's gonna crash to the floor, kill someone, take Josh with it.
SPEAKER_01This is like the Mista Mista lady from uh Happy Gilmore. I mean in the unit forms out.
SPEAKER_02So we're like holding it, it's so heavy. Josh is holding most of it, his hands are bleeding, he's bleeding all over it. It's so heavy. We call my mom, she's 40 minutes away, she comes. We've been holding it for 40 minutes, Josh mostly. She brings a random neighbor, speaking of, who like just had a baby a week ago and was like walking with his wife, and she asked him to come up and help Josh. They try for so long to get it off, they can't. His hands are bleeding, he started bleeding instantly, and both of them, the whole thing is covered in blood. We call the fire department because the the landlord couldn't come. He's like, I he was at his day job, like downtown or whatever. And he's like, I can't come. Let me see if I can get a guy over there. He doesn't seem to be able to get a guy to go over there. So we literally call the fire department, and they're like, We don't do this, like, this is not an emergency. Like they gave us no help. So then my mom calls our landlord and just like starts yelling at him that like she's gonna call the fire department, which we've already done, but he does already done. He doesn't like, oh my god, oh my god, I'm coming. So he left work and came. And then of course I felt like scared. Like, I'm like, we want to stay living here. Like, I don't want him to hate us. But he is so magnanimous, like he was totally cool about it. But he came.
SPEAKER_01Did he start bleeding?
SPEAKER_02So, no, he literally comes, and he's shorter than me. He comes, he's like kind of quiet looking at the machine.
SPEAKER_01And Josh is still holding.
SPEAKER_02No, we finally got heavy, heavy stuff to sit on.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I was like, How long? Yeah, finally we did that.
SPEAKER_02The the neighbor helped Josh prop it.
SPEAKER_01I mean, crazy. Unbelievable.
SPEAKER_02There's like antiseptic. My mom's like, you need to get this random neighbor a band-aid. And I'm like, I don't even know where the band-aids are. But so he comes and he like quietly himself, and it's so heavy. I was plugging my ears. I'm like, he's gonna drop it to the floor. Like he just is because it's so heavy. I know the way he's like trying to like move it down and then up is he's gonna drop it out the window. You know, when you're plugging your ears like, I'm about to hear a crash. All of a sudden, he pulls it through the window. And I was like, it was miraculous that he was able to do that. Josh and this like strong guy both could not get it together. Wow. And then he was like, okay. And I looked at him, I was like, you have to be a dad to do it. And he like laughed so hard. He's like, I don't know. But he got it. Oh I was like, what are we gonna fucking do? We're gonna have to chop off Josh. Like, I was like so scary. That is such a scary, helpless feeling. We were like, carrying this heavy thing, we can't get it in, we can't get it out, and like no one's helping us, and the neighbor came, the neighbor couldn't help. Yikes, we did return it, but we only got store credit for Home Depot, yeah. Because they only have a seven-day return policy, it's kind of short, and then it's store credit. Store credit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you'll find something.
SPEAKER_02I know we will. Yeah. I was already trying to think of like what we need, and Josh was like, you don't need to spend it immediately.
SPEAKER_01You definitely don't. You could even use it on plants.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01If you wanted, or light bulbs.
SPEAKER_02I mean it's like $400.
SPEAKER_01Or cleaning supply. We also don't have to use it all at once. Right. So Kelly's already going big. I had to spend all $400 on the city.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's like I would what I would really love to happen is like something we really need be there and be like $400. Then it feels like we got it for free.
SPEAKER_01Or two things that are $200.
SPEAKER_00Or we're just slowly chip away at it for the next decade.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That feels so unsatisfying to me.
SPEAKER_01That feels so satisfying too. Now, if it was $400 towel Amazon.
SPEAKER_02Do they have paper tops?
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, they got bun tons of cleaning supplies there. Oh you get all your cleaning supplies.
SPEAKER_02Oh.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Okay. Your Windex, your whatever you need. Lysol wipes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah. Okay. Floor Home Depot.
SPEAKER_02And there is some furniture.
SPEAKER_01There is. There's storage options. Store.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01There's area rugs.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I wonder if there's like a bookshelf.
SPEAKER_01They definitely probably I bet online has even more stuff.
SPEAKER_02We do need a second bookshelf.
SPEAKER_01No. Maybe this is turning into a positive.
SPEAKER_02We'll get into our topic then.
SPEAKER_01If you stopped listening, start listening now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you can start now. Yeah. Did you ever do that? Like skip the intro of a podcast.
SPEAKER_01I don't listen to many podcasts. That's the thing.
SPEAKER_02The famous one everybody skips is the Mark Marin intro. Nobody, nobody listens to that.
SPEAKER_01Well, I remember when you recommended that to me and it spent an hour talking about his dead cat or something like that.
SPEAKER_02Totally. And it's just him.
SPEAKER_01I was like, man, this is really I thought he was gonna have a guest.
SPEAKER_02I know. He does, but it's like it's literally almost 30 minutes in, kind of like us. Which I don't mind people talking. Yeah. But yeah, it's kind of nice if it's two people. And we're two people.
SPEAKER_01Right. I mean, I think it is a special talent to be able to just talk like that by yourself. Totally, yeah.
SPEAKER_02It is, and make it an entertaining podcast for sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01No disrespect to his cat and his relationship with it. I just wasn't looking for that at that time to be listening to.
SPEAKER_02Totally. But there is someone who is.
SPEAKER_01Yes, of course. Always. That's all that matters.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Okay.
Interpersonal Effectiveness And Needs
SPEAKER_02Well. Topic time. Yeah, let's get into our topic. Speaking of two people talking today, we're talking about interpersonal effectiveness. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Or segue. Yes. Interpersonal effectiveness. Which is one of the we're going to be talking about DBT. It's one of the parts of DBT.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Dialectical behavior therapy. It's one of the pillars, modules. Right. Is a skill called Dear Man. It's an acronym.
SPEAKER_01It is an acronym. So what should we talk about interpersonal effectiveness?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01The whole interpersonal effectiveness kind of goes without saying. We're trying to be more effective in our relationships. Yeah. So, dear man, it says guidelines. If we were looking at the handout for objectives, effectiveness, getting what you want. Yes.
SPEAKER_02And some people do get a little like triggered by that idea of like how to get what you want.
SPEAKER_01In a relationship.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm thinking about in the past having like taught this skill in group settings. And sometimes people think, I don't know, they'll have a little like moral issue with like this is manipulation. You want in a relationship. Yeah. But you know, I I always like about Marsha that she is a little provocative and kind of putting out there that like you can get what you want in relationships and you should have the self-worth to ask for what you want in an effective, respectful way.
SPEAKER_01Because the question becomes do you think it's not important to get what you want in a relationship?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And that is, you know, can open up a lot of interesting discussion if that's you. If you're sort of like, oh, I don't want some direct way to get what I want, you know, then it's like, well, let's discuss that a little bit.
SPEAKER_01Right. And when we say get what you want, we're really talking about needs.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What are the needs that we have? And we all have needs in relationships. Yeah. And I think that's why holding dialectics, we always want to remember that doesn't mean that you're not cognizant or aware of the other person's needs. Yeah. We want to keep relationships with people. We also want to validate their needs and their wants and wishes. And it's important for us to remember that we have needs and objectives within relationships. So I think people that do have a reaction that think it's manipulative to think about getting what you want. I do like to question that a little bit and kind of see, do you not think it's important to get your needs met in relationships? Because that's what this is really going for.
SPEAKER_02And those needs could be anything that are your needs.
SPEAKER_01That are your needs.
SPEAKER_02I need space. Space. I need yeah.
SPEAKER_01I need us to talk less. I need I need a new home.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But really, like anything, yeah, you can use this with.
SPEAKER_01And when we say relationships, it's any relationship. This could be familial, friend, work. Depending on the context, you can use this format. Um, it doesn't, you know, sometimes people's minds go to just significant other partnered relationships, but this is really any relationship. And the way the handout is broken up, the front is deer and the back is man. Yeah. And so the deer is really kind of the format that you're following, which is what you're asking for or what you're you're doing. And then the man is the things that you want to keep in mind while you're delivering the deer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and the handout comes from the dbt manual.
SPEAKER_01The DBT manual. Which I believe is in 2015.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the 2015.
SPEAKER_01The 2015 version. Yes.
SPEAKER_02And it's like, what is it, like edition five or something?
SPEAKER_01I think this is only second edition.
SPEAKER_02Oh no, second edition. Second edition. I'm thinking of the DSM. Second edition.
SPEAKER_01No, skills, the worksheet in handout, yeah, 2015. You think she's coming out with another one soon? I bet. Not maybe not soon, but she will, I'm sure. It's been over 10 years.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Anyway.
SPEAKER_02It's funny. I was trained so much on the first one that like some of the little changes, I was like, oh, these are not as like native to me.
SPEAKER_01So should we get into the acronym?
SPEAKER_02Let's get into it. Let's
Describe And Express First
SPEAKER_02start.
SPEAKER_01So let's talk about the deer. So this is really important. When we're saying deer, we're saying D-E-A-R. Those are the letters. That's the acronym that we're using, not like deer isn't an animal. And we want to remember to try to follow these in this order. We're not trying to like move it around. So the first letter D is described. So from the handout, it says describe the situation, if necessary, stick to facts, tell the person exactly what you are reacting to.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So this, you know, Marsha comes from kind of like Buddhist study and describe in the very literal sense, right? Uh no judgment, just really descriptions of What you're reacting to. Like you describe the situation, but kind of set the scene a little bit.
SPEAKER_01Set the scene.
SPEAKER_02With basic descriptive fact-based language. Yeah. Yeah. So and I give an example there.
SPEAKER_01Do you want me to read the example?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the example sometimes people don't like.
SPEAKER_01Let's read it. So the example is in quotes you told me you would be home by dinner, but you didn't get here until 11.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So it's like you're kind of describing, like, so here's the deal.
SPEAKER_01Here's what here's what happened or is happening.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That actually kind of addressing here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think it's important sometimes we emphasize we're not leading with the next letter, which is express, where we're kind of putting our feelings out there first.
SPEAKER_03Totally.
SPEAKER_01That's really hard to do, especially when we're having a lot of feelings, depending on this. Sometimes we may want to lead with I'm really mad at you, right? We want to go to that place and just kind of lash out. Yeah. So we first want to get the person on the same page. Yeah. If we can. Yeah. And it doesn't mean that the other person won't become defensive because some people will argue facts as we know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh, from just the world right now.
SPEAKER_02Right. Oh God.
SPEAKER_01The more we can describe and be objective, though, to maybe call that person in, then we can move into express.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And descriptive, like fact-based language, like it doesn't like raise the temperature the way emotions do. Right. You know, and you do want to eventually honestly express the emotions next. But I think starting with here are facts that I'm noticing can like really quell, you know, even out the temperature to begin with and hopefully, yeah, like reduce some defensiveness.
SPEAKER_01And I think we've all been in a place where we know what we're reacting to and we don't say that, and the other person is blindsided or totally almost, wait, where is this coming from? I don't understand. Yeah. And that just leads to confusion. So the hope here is with as much clarity as possible, if we can describe what's going on, or at least our experience of it. Yeah. We've set the scene, we set the table. Now we move into express. Express your feelings and opinions about the situation. Don't assume that the other person knows how you feel.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, you actually have to express and verbalize the emotions coming up for you. You know, it's like you said you'd be home by, what does it say?
SPEAKER_01You told me you'd be home by dinner.
SPEAKER_02By dinner.
SPEAKER_01You didn't get here till 11.
SPEAKER_02You didn't get here till 11. So it's like then you can say, like, given that fact, here's what I'm noticing. I feel right. You start with the outside fact and then share the inside experience. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So the example here is when you come home so late, I start worrying about you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I was worried.
SPEAKER_02And you know, these are subjective feelings, right? It can't be argued. Like someone being like, you can't come in at that time. You're bad if you do. Judgment and like demand is very different than sharing with them. Like when you do this, here's my world. Here's my experience. In a lot of ways, it's a very generous uh discussion because you're just sharing experience. Yeah. And eventually making a request.
SPEAKER_01When you come home so late, I start worrying about you. I've had some people say they want to reword that to I start worrying about you when you come home so late. Which I think is fair.
SPEAKER_02I think they think the order is a little bit Oh, that's so funny because I totally disagree. Backwards. I like that when this thing happens that I just mentioned, here's what I feel. I think it actually provides nice context.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't think it really makes a difference to me either way. Yeah. So you told me you'd be home by dinner, but you didn't get here till 11. When you come home so late, I start worrying about you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Is where we're at. So you're sharing like a lot of fears coming up for me.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02When this happens.
SPEAKER_01And now the assert.
Asserting Needs Through The Fear
SPEAKER_01So this is really about okay, what are we asking for? Yeah. And the reason that we teach this skill is not only to learn how to be assertive, but also to really think about this. We can't think about everything or cope ahead for every scenario. Sometimes thinking about this conversation before it happens is important because maybe we don't exactly know what we need. And yeah. So this is I would really like it if you would call me when you're going to be home late.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. Some people have some issues with that that I've heard in the past.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like it's almost not direct enough.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That maybe you're not really leaning in. Totally. Or that you're kind of like wavering a little bit. I mean, I would kind of really like it if you did that. Yeah. But if you know it, it's okay.
SPEAKER_02I know. If I put that in my own language, I might say, like, I'm asking you to update me on the plan if you're going to be late. Or please call me next time.
SPEAKER_01Please call me next time you're going to be late.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Be a little more direct with it.
SPEAKER_01And context is important. We always want to think about our audience. But this is really what we're thinking about. Okay, what is the need here? Yeah. What are you asking for? I need to be notified. I need a call. I need a text. I need something.
SPEAKER_02You know what's funny? I'm realizing is you just said that part of it. This is probably the part I struggle with the most, where it's like, I'll be mad something happened. And then sometimes Josh will be like, Well, what do you want me to do? And like I'm always like, nothing. Like, I'm like, for some reason, I don't want there to be a that's where the block is. Yeah. And my therapist and I kind of realize like often it's because like what I really want is for the person to undo what they did, which they can't. Yeah. If I say like next time, could you and I go forward, I have to accept that like this mistake happened and I was hurt in this way or I missed out on this thing. Yeah, there's a part of me that wants to like avoid that and live in the fantasy of like this can be undone if I just get like mad enough or if I like suffer enough about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, there's so much fear that could be based in putting your needs out there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because they might be rejected or the person might not be able to meet that. Yeah. Or it could create even more conflicts. Yeah. So I I think asserting is very difficult. I think everybody I struggle with putting my needs out there because there is fear. Well, what if the person doesn't meet the need?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. What if they just say no?
SPEAKER_01What if they just say no?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right? Especially if it's somebody you really care about. What does it mean about me? What does it mean about our relationship?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think there's a lot that's packed in there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And sometimes, like if you're noticing you go through a deer man and you feel a lot of fear about any part of it, there's some work you can do in therapy to just open up that fear and help you get it in that window of tolerance and do it anyway. Live in the fear.
SPEAKER_01I remember at a previous job one time, one of my friends, I was like, Yeah, I don't, I should have this meeting, and but I don't know if I should have this meeting because I want to ask for more money and this and that. And just point blank, he was like, But just ask them what's the worst that happens. They'll say no.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01They're not gonna fire you if you ask for more money and like you'll still have your job. Right. Then you at least know and you can move from there. Which yes, that's easier said than done. But that was kind of sometimes in that moment the slap I needed in the face where it's like you can deal with them saying no. Yeah, you know, you can deal with not getting that need, you'll pivot and move to something else. Yeah. Now that is, I think, much more tricky in interpersonal relationships that aren't related to work. Sure. But I think it's a good reminder for me that you can deal with people rejecting you. Kind of like, what's the worst that can happen?
SPEAKER_02And you can imagine that. And often you can imagine yourself coping with it. Or you could practice imagining coping with it. Right. If that really scary thing happened, what's your ideal way of handling it?
SPEAKER_01In the same token, what's the best thing that happens? They say yes. Yeah. Or maybe they give you some, but right? There is a lot of upside to it as well. Yeah. And you won't know unless you do it. Yeah. And then the last one's reinforce, which I do think a lot of people have reactions
Reinforce Without Sounding Threatening
SPEAKER_01to that word. So I'm curious your thoughts on that. Yeah. So, um, and also what's in parentheses here. So reinforce is the last letter of this script. Reinforce or in parentheses, reward the person ahead of time, so to speak, by explaining positive effects of getting what you want or need. If necessary, also clarify the negative consequences of not getting what you want or need. Yeah. In quotes, I would be so relieved and a lot easier to live with if you do that. Meaning if you call me when you're gonna be late.
SPEAKER_02So right.
SPEAKER_01So there's a lot packed in here, the example and just the words reinforce and reward. So what do you think that means?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I'm for it. I'm like very biased toward Marcia, but I I do I think a reinforcement of something you're saying is great. Now, I would probably try myself not to make it threatening in any way, or like sure, you know, kind of suggesting like I'll be a nightmare to live with. Oh, sorry, my shin. I'll be a nightmare. Sleep with one eye open. Yeah, like do that. I love that. More like I really like the na reinforcing the natural consequence of them doing this. Like I would appreciate it so much because that's true. It is true, you know, or I will feel a lot of relief if we can communicate that way. Yeah. You know, to share with them like this is what could happen there.
SPEAKER_01I think it'd also be reinforcing to say we'd be on the same page. Yeah. Like, I don't want to run into this scenario again where we're not clear on expectations. Yeah. There's one line at the bottom here that sometimes we gloss over. Remember also to reward desired behavior after the fact. So really acknowledge when behavior has changed and somebody has met your need. Totally. And a thank you goes along with it. And a thank you goes along with it. Thank you, is a reinforcement. That's the thing. When people have such a reaction to reward, I try to gently put people into the we reward people all the time for behavior. We reinforce behavior all the time. Thank you is a reward. Yeah, someone holds the door for you.
SPEAKER_02You say thank you. It's reinforceable.
SPEAKER_01You give a hug, you say, you know, you give a little hard text. Like we are reinforcing behaviors all the time. So I think this is just making it very clear of also outlining, yeah, like if this need is met, here are some of the things that might come from it, right? Both positive and maybe even if it's not met, what the negatives are.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I would be so relieved and a lot easier to live with if you do that. I think I remember a group one time where you said something like, you know, I think there's a version where somebody would need to hear that. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, totally. Because it's like sometimes it's just like, can you cut the shit?
SPEAKER_02Like, like, I'm gonna be really anxious and you're gonna feel that intensity.
SPEAKER_01Like, do you want us to keep bickering back and forth about this or having conflict about this? Like, yeah, our life right now feels chaotic. Totally. We're gonna have peace here.
SPEAKER_02Like, I'm gonna feel peace, and you'll feel that too.
SPEAKER_01Right. We'd both have an easier time in the house or whatever.
SPEAKER_02So and and Marsha does often do like tongue and chi kind of irreverent talks. So I could see her being like, I'll be a lot less of
Staying Mindful Under Pressure
SPEAKER_02a nightmare. Right. You know, like for myself and for you. I like it. Bing, bang, boom. Right. Love it. Okay.
SPEAKER_01The man.
SPEAKER_02The man, the manner in which the manner in which we deliver that message.
SPEAKER_01So the first thing, the M is for being mindful, staying mindful, which mindfulness runs through everything that we're doing within DBT. So I don't know if I should read all of this, but keep your focus on your goals, maintain your position, don't be distracted, don't get off topic. She has this idea of the broken record, which if somebody tries to distract you, can you kind of keep asking or keep on topic? And then ignoring attacks. If somebody's attacking you, can you try to make your point here? So in quotes, the idea of like, I would still like a call. Like, I hear what you're saying. Maybe you want to bring up something that happened a while ago.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Can we stay on topic here?
SPEAKER_02So and I like the idea of a broken record. I think it's a helpful kind of compass, you know, like, well, you always this, and last week you that. And you know, you can say, I would still in this situation like a call.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, we can talk about that in a minute. I want to stay with what we're on right now.
SPEAKER_01So we're coming back, bringing that record back around. Yep.
SPEAKER_02And ignoring attacks, of course, is much easier said than done. But absolutely, you know, it's a nice idea.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02If you can get there and really let them wash over you a little bit and go back, even if you have to say the same sentence as a broken record.
SPEAKER_01I think if we're really honest with ourselves, sometimes we want to throw the kitchen sink when we get in these conversations and we're not mindful. And we start to go off on our own tans. Never you always do this. And do you remember that time that you right? So it's it's not just when the other person throws that at us, but also when we have the urge to kind of veer and bring up something else. Totally. So I get really lulled by that. You never, you know, never, never, always, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Non-judgmental stands. Right.
SPEAKER_02And it's never literally true. It exactly. This whole thing is about like sticking with the truth.
SPEAKER_01You gotta stick with it as much as possible. Stick with. Yeah. So the next thing, A, if we can try to appear confident. So appear effective and competent, use a confident voice tone and physical manner, make good eye contact, no stammering, whispering, staring at the floor, retreating, no saying, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's not saying be, right? We always emphasize that. It's not saying be confidence. A lot of times when you deliver a dear man, you probably won't feel confident. Right. And so if we waited for that, we'd be waiting probably a long time. So this is how could we embody confidence?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. And use whatever tools you have. Like body language can go a long way, like standing up straighter. I was like, I somehow this came across my Instagram feed. But this one woman who like trains like women in the workplace on how to like appear more competent. A big thing she's like. Now I gotta sit up straight. I know, right? A big thing she was saying was like, when you say good morning, like don't say like good morning. Like she's like, good morning. Like it's more like you let it the note go down. Down note. This one was so intense. I was like, I don't know if I'd follow all this, but I thought it was an interesting thought. Like morning. It like honestly probably makes you sound more like a stereotypical mask man. Okay. But it's like a there's a confidence in it. Morning, instead of like good morning, morning. Like that high pitched is like a weaker sounding thing. I don't know. I mean, we could this could become problematic really quickly, but it was like a little snippet I thought about since I saw it. Yeah. But like anything that helps you appear confident, and like sometimes
Appearing Confident When You Are Not
SPEAKER_02with clients, like I'll have them when in a natural moment that they feel confident, I'll have them really feel into and enjoy the felt sense of that so they can kind of call it up and use any cues they need to call that up to appear confident and kind of embody. I like what you said, like embody the confidence.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Even if somewhere or some part of you doesn't feel yeah.
SPEAKER_01And sometimes when we start, we may feel more confident.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I always use the example of public speaking. Sometimes you have to appear confident. And as you start that speech or whatever it is, that presentation, or you're in a meeting and you're talking, sometimes you start to feel a little bit more okay, like I'm doing this totally in a minute. So I think the point here is really to activate that behavior versus waiting for that confidence because that would really limit us. Definitely.
Negotiation And Nonnegotiables
SPEAKER_01Um, okay, and then the last thing is negotiate. So be willing to give to get, offer, and ask for other solutions to the problem. Reduce your request. Say no, but offer to do something else or to solve the problem another way. Focus on what will work. So, quote, how about if you text me when you think you might be late? Or the idea of turning the tables, turn the problem over to the other person, ask for other solutions. What do you think we should do? Um, that's in quotes. I can't just stop worrying about you, or I'm not willing to. So if you can, I think preparing a dear man ahead of time is most effective, especially when it comes to this letter, because some things are non-negotiable.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_01And if you don't think about that ahead of time, you may compromise some of your values and you might think you have to negotiate, and some things are not a negotiation. Right. Some things are just your need. Right. And it's like if it's not met, then what do you kind of how do you go from there?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, this is really like all of this involves wise mind, but there is a lot of wise mind. And if something really is a non-negotiable and someone can or isn't willing to meet it, you know, you have to listen in. Do you step away from the relationship, change the dynamic of it, make a bigger change or something?
SPEAKER_01A bigger change. Yeah. Or boundaries.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I love this letter though, because it like brings around this whole thing to a true dialectic, as like all the skills do. You know, like it's really telling you be clear and strong and assertive in asking for something, and then have an openness to not getting the exact thing. Yeah. It's a true paradox and a really important one in communication to be really solid in your own sense of deservingness and verbalizing those needs, the courage to do that, the boldness to do that, the willingness, as she would say, to do that, paired with an openness to not getting the exact thing is flexible. It's flexible. It's like to me, that self-actualization to be able to hold that dialectic is so important. And I love the turn the tables part of it, where if they're not willing to meet you fully at your request, to turn it into this collaborative environment where you say, okay, so you're not willing to meet that. Then can you collaborate with me on how we solve this? Because it's an issue for me and I'm in this relationship. And you two working together to find the solution as a process can be really powerful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And also can get you to the best solution for both parties. So I think it's a great letter. I love it.
SPEAKER_01Reduce your requests. Just be careful, right? Think about your values. I always want people to think about your values. So negotiate if that's effective for you in this scenario.
SPEAKER_03Totally.
SPEAKER_01I think about that a lot with my kids. Like there are certain needs I have with them where it's like, this isn't unnegotiable. This is about your safety. Yeah. You're not old enough to do that. It's not really negotiable. I hear you. I'm flexible in hearing how frustrating that could be. And at the same time, it's you gotta meet that need. Yeah. Whatever that need is.
SPEAKER_02Well, and that's even how dear man can be so dialectical in that type of relationship, parent-child, where one person is the authority. It makes me think of like in Gilmore Girls, those times where Laura. I would be like, I have to play the mom card, even though she was always really trying to be more of a friend. Friend?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. I gotta play the dad card. Yeah. Do you, Josh? We're gonna call in the producer here. Do you think it would be effective for you? I'm putting you on the spot here, to have like a script, if you will, like, or have something outlined, like in a format of like, yeah, here's a need. This may help support me expressing it.
SPEAKER_00Like, do you think this this may be a few too many steps for an OCD man like me? I see. But I think being mindful is um helpful. I think being honest is helpful and being committed to honesty while being flexible with whatever the outcome is. Yeah. Yeah. If I were to take a few trinkets, I think there's some trinkets to take from here. Sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But I or even if you wrote a deer, start just there. Describe, express, assert, reinforce.
SPEAKER_00I think I like the man.
SPEAKER_02Well, then you can just check the man part. You don't have to write that part. You just make sure, okay, am I saying this mindfully?
SPEAKER_01The reason I'm asking you is because you had never heard of this before. No. Sometimes I know in the group space, people might think, well, it feels a little rigid, or I have to like write this stuff down. And or or sometimes people will have a reaction like it's rudimentary somehow to do that. And I think it's an interesting thought exercise to just engage in it, even if you don't deliver it, to just think about how to organize and what are like what is my real need. Because sometimes even just organizing this, yeah, you think it's one thing, but it might actually be something else that you want to assert.
SPEAKER_02But I hear what you're saying that like maybe something this rigid isn't the most helpful thing when you're dealing with OCD or it could be a menu of options. Yeah, I think that's a great way of putting it.
SPEAKER_00It could also be a fun science experiment to try one time.
SPEAKER_02And I think at the very most, what you would do would be write it down and you kind of throw it at the wall. Then you don't have to read the whole script. It's sort of like just a way to get your mind.
SPEAKER_00I know. I usually
Using DEAR MAN Like A Menu
SPEAKER_00just throw it at the wall, but I guess I would add the step of write it down.
SPEAKER_02Because well, you're bringing up, I'm like, I'm hearing you on the back end, and like I'm realizing original DBT was was developed more for the personality type that's a little undercontained. Yeah. Versus over-contained. Right. Like OCD. And that's I I imagine in radically open DBT.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, R O DBT.
SPEAKER_02There would be different. I'd be curious. Maybe we could look into that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, over controlled or under controlled. Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_02I wonder if they have a different deer man style.
SPEAKER_01They might.
SPEAKER_02Or be curious.
SPEAKER_01But I I think I like the idea of the menu because I think for my in my own personal experience, something that I when I get ramped up with an emotion and I'm about to enter some sort of interpersonal thing, I do always think about D. Like that sticks with me. Like am I going into this and am I just going straight on like scorched earth emotion? Right. And is that going to be the most useful thing, or should I? So even that's all I sometimes think about is just the D. How would I describe what is happening right now before I get into any type of emotional content? Um, which that is bringing in the mindful, right? Yeah. Um, so I think it is useful to look at it as like a menu because if even just one of or two of these things is like, okay, right, before I just blast somebody, could I actually describe what's going on? Because they might not know what's going on. And so could I give them a little context here?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, explaining giving the context is huge. For me, just thinking about like And if you can't, if you can't get to the describe, we have some other distress tolerance skills that we can cover in a later episode to help you manage those feelings, feel some tolerance of them, and then go to the describe. Oh boy. Yeah. Some other Skills are needed first if you cannot get to D first.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. If you're too dysregulated too much distress, for sure. Yeah. The hope would be could you use those skills to help you before you engage? Because if you're too heightened, this stuff will go out the window anyway. Oh, yeah. It's too much to organize. We'll scorch that earth. Scorching. Totally. Deer man.
SPEAKER_02Okay, that's our deer man.
SPEAKER_01That is our deer man.
SPEAKER_02So now we'll move into our how wise is it
How Wise Is Owning A Scale
SPEAKER_02segment. We're in the body image world.
SPEAKER_01Oh boy.
SPEAKER_02And the question is, how wise is it to own a scale? How wise is it to own a scale? So I'm gonna go out there as someone who helps people deal with body dysmorphia, body image struggles, disordered eating, and the like. Um, that it is not wise to own a scale. To own one.
SPEAKER_01To own one. Yeah. I would agree with you 100%. Okay. I've never owned one. Okay. And I don't plan on owning one. There are too many rabbit holes that it can send people down. I'm not saying it's not wise to never wear yourself. I just think having it in the home and access to it with a lot of frequency um can lead down paths that I think could be detrimental to your health, mental, physical, all the above.
SPEAKER_02It it can be really hard to let go of trying to control the body if you have this measurement system for body control.
SPEAKER_01There's been a lot of dismantling between the idea of like numbers and weight and health.
SPEAKER_02100%.
SPEAKER_01And I think that people have a very rigid idea of numbers equaling health. Yeah. That's very problematic.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it doesn't give you a more full picture of a person's overall health.
SPEAKER_02Mental health like presentations that are more over controlled eating disorders would be in this realm. There is ample research showing that the more you lean into uncertainty, the more ease and symptoms, decrease in intrusive thinking. So yeah, putting away as many measurements as you can. I mean, some people go as far as to like cover up mirrors and things like that. But I would say the worst thing is like scale in the bathroom, doing it every day or multiple times a day. That is, I think if you're doing that, I would really discourage you from doing that. Yeah. Or if you need to slowly kind of, you know, pack it up but still have it. You weren't gonna say scale back. Lean into that uncertainty more and trust yourself, right? What comes in that uncertainty instead of seeking certainty and outside reassurance, you begin that process of loving trust in the self. Right. And you know, you'll be weighed at the doctor. You'll like if you're so worried about never being weighed, I also don't think that's a problem. Right. We think it's not wise. Josh, any thoughts?
SPEAKER_00It's definitely not wise. Yeah. As a man with OCD, as a dear man, as a dear old man. I gotta just eat intuitively, eat all the broccoli I want, eat all the candy I want. I'm not gonna weigh myself. And then when I go to the doctor and they tell me to get on Ozempic, I'm not gonna do it.
SPEAKER_01Wagovy? We govy. Yeah. Also, just I'm noticing more of my kids noticing things about food more, and even they'll look at labels more and be like, oh, well, this is this many calories, or this has this much fat in it. And interesting. I'm not sure where that's coming from. It could just be that they're actually reading more things and just noticing more things as they age, which that's what we're kind of treating it as. And Sarah and I are just kind of like, okay, like great. Like we don't say it, but kind of who cares? Right, right? Like it doesn't really matter. Focus. Um, but it's interesting to see a little bit of that awareness come in of like, oh, food has calories in it and food has fat in it, and and things like that.
SPEAKER_02It hasn't turned into anything, but yeah, I would be so curious like what that means to them at this point.
SPEAKER_01I don't think it really means anything.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Would they be able to say that? Like if you were like, what does that mean to you, those calories, when you read that? Would they be able to say? Maybe what? I don't know. Yeah, maybe they should be.
SPEAKER_01I mean, West probably has an idea that you need calories for energy. Yeah, they probably both have units of energy. Yeah, they probably have that knowledge, right? From health or whatever, but health culture, weight culture, diet, culture, diet culture, all this stuff. Yeah, it's airy. So we're saying not wise.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, not wise. Develop that trust and solve.
SPEAKER_01Which what is health for you? Because it's very individual. Totally.
SPEAKER_02And and you know, the medical community is like slow at coming around to this, but there is a lot more discourse on weight is not a measure of health at all. And if a doctor tells you it is, I think I would encourage you to challenge that and say, like, where in my blood work is there an issue?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02There was a recent study that people who, as they age, like into their 60s and 70s and 80s, adults who have a little more weight on the body actually tend to have better outcomes with catching viruses and illness because it's more energy on the body to fight illness. So this idea that like thinness as you age, it's a complete fabrication. So, you know, being a little above the average BMI, which also has been doctored and that's a weight loss company. Right? Yeah. And yeah, weight loss drugs. So challenge that idea.
SPEAKER_01Challenge it.
SPEAKER_02We'll go home in your home, in your world. Like, yeah. And I would say trust your gut, like if it doesn't feel right to you.
SPEAKER_01Trust your gut. Ask more questions. Definitely ask more questions. Well, we did it again.
Contact Info And Closing Notes
SPEAKER_02We did it. This has been great. Yeah. Well, where can people reach you?
SPEAKER_01They can reach me at buttsbutz. Jonathan at gmail.com. What about you?
SPEAKER_02Okay, and they can reach me at kkpsychotherapy.com. Anything you might need if you're interested in working with me or questions or anything. Reach me there.
SPEAKER_00Jish. You can reach me at joshbayerfilms.com, B-A-Y-E-R as in the aspirin, or uh you can check me out at Josh Bayer Films on YouTube. Wow, watch all my films. Yeah. Rate and review the pod. Thank you, blanketforts.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, blanket for its rate, review, write in questions, things you want us to talk about. Totally.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, rate and review. It helps the pod get discovered. So we would much appreciate that. We could write a deer man about that if we can.
SPEAKER_01We could, and then we're gonna go to a city near you, hopefully, at some point.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Travel around.
SPEAKER_02Totally, totally. Okay, thanks everyone.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, everyone. Till next time. Bye. Taye.
SPEAKER_02The Wisemind Happy Hour Podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.