The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
interpersonal effectiveness: GIVE
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Welcome to Part 2 of our DBT "interpersonal effectiveness" series." Today we focus on the GIVE skill for healthier communication and relationship repair: be Gentle, act Interested, Validate, and use an Easy Manner. (And "watch that 'tude.") 😉 We break down what each part looks like in practice, how to stay in a hard conversation without escalating, and why validation is not the same thing as agreement.
💿 music by blanket forts 💿
Back Together And Movie Night
SPEAKER_03Welcome to the Wisemind Happy Hour. I'm Kelly. I'm John. Welcome back.
SPEAKER_01We're back.
SPEAKER_03The gang is back.
SPEAKER_01It's back. And it's better than ever. Although we did see each other, we just didn't record.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, we saw each other on a Tuesday.
SPEAKER_01We had movie night. It was date night movie night.
SPEAKER_03Date night movie night.
SPEAKER_01Bring your kids. Yeah. I brought mine.
SPEAKER_03We brought yours.
SPEAKER_01Uh, yeah, that was a great time. I had a great time.
SPEAKER_03So fun. We loved it.
SPEAKER_01So we went and saw School of Rock.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01They released it for just well, the theater we went to, Landmark had this back to school uh month in September because all the kids are going back to school. So they showed all these movies that had to do with school. So Mean Girls, uh Fair Spieler's Day Off, and then School of Rock. And my kids love that movie. I love that movie. And you all joined us, which was amazing.
SPEAKER_03It was so fun. I forgot how fun that movie is.
SPEAKER_01The seating arrangement. Now, this was a hot topic in my car when we drove over because both my boys wanted to sit next to Kelly.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that's so sweet.
SPEAKER_01So we were like, Well, both of you can sit on either side of her.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I didn't realize.
SPEAKER_01Well, but then Sarah's like, Well, what about Josh? And I was like, Well, he can sit with me. And she was like, I don't know about that. Like, we shouldn't separate them. So it ended up being Josh on the end, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Then you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Then Shane.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Then Wes. Then Sarah, then me. Okay.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I didn't, because Shane was more vocal about sitting by me. Shane.
SPEAKER_01I never heard Wes say it. Is more vocal about many things.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. He is in a lot of ways. Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_01He knows what he wants and he says what he wants.
SPEAKER_03That's so sweet.
SPEAKER_01So, what was it like on that end? Because I was on the far end. What was it like on that end of the movie? Shane was kind of mouthing a lot of the words or kind of whispering them.
SPEAKER_03You don't say.
SPEAKER_01I'm surprised he wasn't singing them out loud.
SPEAKER_03No, he definitely has memorized that movie, pretty much.
SPEAKER_01And there was one moment where all I hear is and I look over and he is. It's hard to imagine somebody chewing that loud. Yeah. Well, were they veggies?
SPEAKER_03What were they? They were chips.
SPEAKER_02Chips of some sort. I didn't ever see it.
SPEAKER_03Oh, he had a lot of things. Was it popcorn? No.
SPEAKER_01We brought snacks. We didn't buy popcorn because we bought them the icy's. Oh, that was the big deal that they wanted.
SPEAKER_03They wanted the icy's. Totally.
SPEAKER_01That was another thing I noticed when we first got there. You ordering a coffee.
SPEAKER_02Love coffee.
SPEAKER_01I love coffee too. I just never ordered at a movie theater. I never think to order it at a movie theater.
SPEAKER_02It creates a stimulating experience. I need to. We will pick a theater based on if they have coffee. I mean, I'll be like, do they have coffee?
SPEAKER_01How was it? Tell me about it.
SPEAKER_02It was black.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Was it good? Jack Black.
SPEAKER_01But that's how you take it. You took it Jack Black. I didn't take a Jack White.
SPEAKER_03You said Jack Black, like you referred to Jack Black at some point in the night, and for some reason my mind pictured Jack White.
SPEAKER_02They're kind of the same. I mean, they're not, but. They did that SNL where they were both the same. Oh, really? That's a bit.
SPEAKER_03Okay. That's fine. That's pretty good. That's bad.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant. One thing I did notice though when we were at the movie was the only person who maybe liked the movie more than us was the guy sitting in front of us. Did you notice that guy?
SPEAKER_03That guy was laughing like he had never seen the movie, and I think he's seen it a bunch.
SPEAKER_01He definitely saw it because he was repeating lines to whoever he brought to the movie just cackling with laughter.
SPEAKER_03Josh and I looked at each other like, what the hell's going on with this person? What's going on with this guy? Yeah. It's cute when people have like a thing that they're so obsessed with.
SPEAKER_01And you could tell he was looking at the person to see the reaction the whole time. Yeah. At least from my vantage point, he was looking left. Uh just loving that movie. Yeah. I mean, it is a great movie.
SPEAKER_03It's a great movie, but it is- it was like louder than your kids who are age-appropriate to do it. Age appropriate loud.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, but that was a great time. That was a lot of fun to take a break, go to the movies, and you forget how dorky Mike White is. Yeah. And he's so famous now. Present now. Yeah. Because he writes The White Lotus.
SPEAKER_03And you know who I think really is great is um Joan Cush.
SPEAKER_01Joan Cusack, yeah.
SPEAKER_03She is really well cast in that role.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And she makes it funny.
SPEAKER_01Principal Mullens?
SPEAKER_03I mean, she might be my favorite of the Cusacks.
SPEAKER_01Doesn't she own a bookstore or something? Oh, really? Around here. River North.
SPEAKER_03They're from Evanston.
SPEAKER_01I know she has a place though, downtown or River North. I thought I read somewhere that she opened up.
SPEAKER_03Oh, cool. It's a bookstore. Yeah, because you don't see her really in the Hollywood sphere anymore.
SPEAKER_01No, but she's great in everything. I mean, high fidelity, she's great. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03She's great in runaway bride.
SPEAKER_01Runaway Bride, she's great. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, she's really good.
SPEAKER_01Never the main, but always brings it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. It's isn't that so funny? Never the main.
SPEAKER_01But some people are made
Movie Snacks And Family Food Rules
SPEAKER_01for that.
SPEAKER_03Can I ask, do you let your kids have like one movie snack? Kind of cut it there.
SPEAKER_01No, we'll do more. We just brought stuff. Okay. This one. Uh, we actually brought more snacks because we typically go to the Regal theaters, which have a lot more candy and snacks. And I kind of forgot whether the landmark even had good. Yeah, the landmark.
SPEAKER_03They can be weird like that.
SPEAKER_01So I said to them, let's just bring snacks. You guys get the icy's.
SPEAKER_03I grew up in a house where like the only thing you get at the movies is popcorn and soda. Like, and then you realize like other households, like an icy is like normal or like MMs are normal.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_03We like it, it's not even like it wasn't like allowed, it was like we just didn't order it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we were a big family that brought snacks. We never brought them. We brought them.
SPEAKER_03I think it was like it must have been. My dad is obsessed with the movies, and it must have been he would go and just bless his heart, get what he wanted and give it to us.
SPEAKER_01And you had to make do.
SPEAKER_03It was kind of just like this is what I like. So you will get this too. Not in a bad way, just like in like a this week in movies.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's probably what it is, right? Traditionalists.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Movies are popcorn and soda. Totally.
SPEAKER_03We also weren't a big candy family. Sure. And I've always had a salt tooth. Like chips, popcorn fries. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I snuck in some peanut MMs. Oh god, I love it. With my root beer. I bought the root beer.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's fun.
SPEAKER_01But I had this peanut. You're like, that's cool. That is good for you.
SPEAKER_03Root beer and MMs is like a fun thing.
SPEAKER_01I like a root beer.
SPEAKER_03Would you ever do MM or their peanut MMs or the regular MMs?
SPEAKER_01They were peanut.
SPEAKER_03Peanut MMs toss into your popcorn. Sure. People do that. Yeah, why not? Wow.
SPEAKER_01You get the salty, you get the sweet.
SPEAKER_03I think I would keep them separate, but I like both a lot.
SPEAKER_01But would you be like doing one hand and then the other? Kind of, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Or like I might take a break and like kind of mix in it. Kinda. Would you ever take a French fry and dip it in a milkshake?
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_03See, I wouldn't go that far.
SPEAKER_01You didn't do that. You didn't do that with Frosties?
SPEAKER_03I learned about that from my neighbor in like seventh grade. And I was like, I'm sorry, you do what now?
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03She's like, Yeah, it's like hot and cold and salty and sweet. And I was like cross-eyed, like I don't know if I could even.
SPEAKER_01No, we we did that growing up. There was a Wendy's, but I like the hot, cold mix. I really like a hot brownie with cold ice cream.
SPEAKER_03That is epic.
SPEAKER_01Epic.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Or even apple pie. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03The hot cake and then ice cream is so good.
SPEAKER_01So the fry is in that camp.
SPEAKER_03Maybe it's because I'm such a psycho about fries and I like fries so much that I like don't want them to change.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I like milkshakes too, but I need the fry to taste like a fry. I don't even do ketchup. Sometimes I'll do aioli.
SPEAKER_01I'm okay with plain fry.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So good.
SPEAKER_01It is so good.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wait, two things. I want to get to two other things.
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_01Do you want to go kind of serious or something that could go serious, or do you want to go stupid John thoughts?
SPEAKER_03Either one. I'm down for either.
SPEAKER_01Stupid John thought I'm kind of curious about both. Okay, so stupid John thoughts.
Wild T Shirts At The Park
SPEAKER_01This week, in a two-day span, one day I saw these were adults, a guy both in the park setting with children around. These two guys, um, on two separate days, I'm not explaining this well, wore t-shirts that had sayings on them. And then I was thinking to myself, you know, this isn't our his how wise is a question, but how I, you know, kind of how wise is it to wear shirts that say that in this setting at the park.
SPEAKER_03So what are they saying?
SPEAKER_01One guy had a shirt that said cuddle monster.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Kind of like a bumper sticker.
SPEAKER_01With kids around. Cuddle monster.
SPEAKER_03It does give me like the chills.
SPEAKER_01The other guy had a shirt that said scissor me. Now that I like. Kids are around, just dudes walking around with shirts, scissors, cuddle monster and scissor me.
SPEAKER_03Now the fact that he's like appropriating lesbian culture, which also kind of like fake lesbian culture, but it's amazing.
SPEAKER_01I was laughing at myself internally the whole time watching these guys. No, no, no. These are two separate days.
SPEAKER_03Two separate days. Okay, sorry.
SPEAKER_01At parks with kids around, just randos walking. I was hoping the third day when I picked up my kids, thinking I'm gonna see another amazing shirt. It didn't happen, but two days in a row I saw these shirts, and I I said to myself, I need to bring this up on the podcast. Cuddle monster. I just think that one was a little bit weird. That one is the weirdest to be around kids. It's like and have a be a grown man.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And it's like even if you're like an earnest type, like cuddle.
SPEAKER_01Still weird.
SPEAKER_03Still weird. It's like Michael Jackson.
SPEAKER_01It was so weird.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And then Scissor me is just great. Yeah. How do you not laugh at that? Like crazy. That reminds me.
SPEAKER_01Now, I don't know if the if any of these people were parents. It was just really funny.
SPEAKER_03I know it's like if you're a parent and you're that kind of guy and you become a parent, you have to retire those shoes.
SPEAKER_01You have to retire those shoes.
SPEAKER_03Or do you wear them like to the bar to the fantasy football draft or whatever?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Or out with your lesbian friends to make them laugh.
SPEAKER_01Like I'm just trying to imagine, even if I did retire it and I wore it to bed one night and I wake up and my boys are like, scissor me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you'd have some splaining to do. Splainin'. Yeah. Scissor me? Yeah. It is like to that term. It's like it's it's like it's definitely straight male culture's like offensive misinterpretation of like lesbian sex lives. And yeah, so it's it's funny in that way.
SPEAKER_01It's just interesting to think about the sayings that we put on shirts and and the shirts we wear. And the people, what they look like. I'm sure you could imagine the guy wearing the scissor measure what he looked like.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I could guess.
SPEAKER_01A little bit haggard. Yeah, a little shrubby. Little uh yeah, you know, long hair with yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Could be at the age to have kids, but does not have them.
SPEAKER_01Doesn't great mustache, though. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And what neighborhood was it?
SPEAKER_01Lakeview.
SPEAKER_03Both Lake View, okay. Anyway, great stuff. Cuddle monster. I mean, it's like we we need to put out a put out a word on the sky. Cuddle monster shirts. Yeah. I mean Cuddle Monster. It's awful. Oof, oof, oof. It's not even funny. Like if a little baby wore that shirt, I mean, even then.
SPEAKER_01I remember I was even then, it's just a little bit cringe. I feel like that's the only person who could wear that shirt.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, a baby who's not aware they're even wearing right. I saw a baby wearing a shirt that said, Lock up your daughters, and it was like a tiny baby. And I was like, this is kind of funny. Like, you know, like can't move, has no idea what he's wearing. And you're kind of like, okay, like this guy's a predator. Get your daughters, lock them up. Lock up your daughters.
SPEAKER_01It's crazy. Yeah, it's a live one here. Yeah. I was like, what?
A Netflix AI Documentary Spiral
SPEAKER_01Okay, so the other thing that might trend serious was, and you know I don't consume because I bought the shirt. Yeah, so here's a picture of me with it on. You know I don't consume as much movies and TV shows as I used to, but I did end up watching a documentary last week.
SPEAKER_03The Manosphere one?
SPEAKER_01What?
SPEAKER_03The Manosphere one?
SPEAKER_01No, I didn't watch that one.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01It's on Netflix. It's called The AI Doc or How I Became an Apocalyptic.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yes, I totally saw this. I didn't see the documentary.
SPEAKER_01Did you watch it?
SPEAKER_03No, I just saw it advertised.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03What is it? What is the prognosis?
SPEAKER_01Well, it is a documentary filmmaker who I don't know much about him, but I I looked him up, and he um I think he won an Academy Award or was nominated for an Academy Award for a previous documentary. Is it Daniel Rower, Roher, and he's an expectant father. And so he's having all of this existential doom about AI and where is it gonna go and this and that. And you know sometimes on these documentaries on Netflix, you're just kind of curious about, well, I don't know, they show some interviews that's probably not the most important person in the world, but it's like somebody who knows something about it. He got some really high-end people in the AI world. Okay. Altman went on there. Wow. Yeah. So you know, it's kind of split into almost like two parts. It leans very gloom and doom at the beginning of all of these people talking about how this is gonna go bad. Right. And then it swings the pendulum into basically saying, I can't deal with this, I need somebody to reframe this. And it goes almost Uber positive, where he's interviewing people who are saying how AI is gonna just completely change and it's a great time to have kids, and your kids are never gonna have to worry about certain things because AI is gonna solve all these worldly problems, right? How does he make sense of that? Right. It can't possibly be one, one of these or the other, right? There's gotta be some middle ground here. So it was a very, very interesting documentary and and and scary in a lot of ways to watch it, just thinking about examples of things that have already happened and also things that that could um happen. And it just feels a little bit Wild West in terms of who's trying to develop the super intelligence and who's also trying to develop the AGI, which is artificial general intelligence as well. Okay. So yeah. Approach with caution. I didn't fall asleep right away, I'll just say after I watched that at night.
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, how do you feel now about AI?
SPEAKER_01It's hard for me not to go doom with it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because like is the positive like refuting the negative stuff, or they're just like distracting you from it?
SPEAKER_01Well, the way that people are framing a positive could possibly happen. And I think that that's assuming people have the that the world's best interests in mind, and I just don't think that's living in reality. No, it's also maybe not living in the reality of that we are a singular country, and there are many countries in the world who don't have our same interests, yeah, and that just complicates everything. Yeah. I don't know, it it just feels too gloomy for me. Like I just lean lean much more in that direction. So I would highly recommend watching it if you can, but it it's not something easy to sit with.
SPEAKER_03We've learned this far into late capitalism that innovation for innovation's sake is a bad idea. Yeah, it makes I mean social media is the perfect example of how like this was a mistake. Right. And people are their mental health is horrendous because of it.
SPEAKER_01There's you know, people bailing that have been a part of it and thought it was a good thing and they're bailing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And also there, I think the quote is this will be a good thing if everybody can embody their most mature self. And the director's like, what does that even like mean? And even if we knew what that meant, people aren't gonna do that.
SPEAKER_03I mean, we elected Donald Trump.
SPEAKER_01Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_03It's all so that we don't even need to.
SPEAKER_01And that's the best case scenario. I think the person was saying that would be the best case scenario. If everybody in the world was able to just embody their most mature self, right, we might get through this.
SPEAKER_03I mean, and also things like social media show that like you have really intelligent people trying to suppress your most intelligent self and cater to your most base self, and it's working. Yeah, like what the hell? And making everything so uber convenient does not necessarily make for a more rich and vital life.
SPEAKER_01Right. And it's also just rapidly it's just growing so rapidly. The the artificial intelligence. Totally output. It's only getting yeah, it is. It is so that was the other thing that was heavy on my mind. There was the stupid John thoughts. Maybe that's why I had to have the stupid John thoughts to balance out the more serious gloom thoughts I was having.
SPEAKER_03I know the AI stuff, it's it's scary.
SPEAKER_01It's scary, and we're seeing more of it. I'm seeing more of it being brought up in the group space, people talking about it more.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Which makes sense.
SPEAKER_03Totally.
SPEAKER_01It's affecting people's mental health. Not only that, but it's affecting people's financial stability. People are seeing more people who have lost their jobs or their jobs have changed, or they don't enjoy their job anymore because they feel like they're just using AI for things to be more efficient. So they don't find the joy in their work.
SPEAKER_03So I know, and like that is unfortunate. And I think it is like less like terrifying that, you know, because like that happens in throughout centuries, you know, like innovation. A new innovation place people, but it's like you're saying, it's on such a fast paced clip, making it probably really hard for people to figure things out. And then there's the short-term threat, you know, of people using it to develop missile systems and to hack. Yeah. You know, there's a pretty real threat that's immediate. All the CEOs now have come out and said, like, yeah, it's pretty dangerous.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03And a lot of people have said when they're in those rooms, they're like, the people at the top do not care about the danger.
SPEAKER_01There's five or six companies right now that are really in the, I guess, I don't know, what do you call it? An arms race almost to get the super intelligence to get to that point. Yeah. And there, there's no pause, you can't pause to have ethical guardrails.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_01There's there's no room for that right now. There should be. Yeah. There's no room for that because the second you do that, you're already behind. Yeah. In the development of it.
SPEAKER_03Totally.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like it was a while ago that Google hired an ethicist, and then the ethicist like gave them the report and they immediately fired them. I'm sure. I mean, it's like I'm sure. Just optics. I'm sure they wanted to look ethical. Right. Yeah, it's bleak.
SPEAKER_01The people in the documentary who are telling us that this is going to be amazing, and and I I don't know their backstory. Yeah. Is anybody paying them? Or their self-interest, yeah. Or what is their self-interest in saying that it's going to be so great? Yeah. You know? So I hate to be that cynical, or maybe it's just skepticism or both. And it's hard not to be.
SPEAKER_03Well, you know what's weird too?
SPEAKER_01What is their end game?
SPEAKER_03What's their end game? Yeah. What's their lens? It's it's weird too. It's like sometimes when I see like positive ads for AI or like people talking about it in a positive way, like they have a weird vibe.
SPEAKER_01They do have a weird vibe.
SPEAKER_03Like where you're like, Are you even believing this?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03Or you can tell they're so excited by the tech. It's sort of like if you've ever met like a doctor who's excited to talk about like an aggressive disease that they've studied, and you're like, So this is actually something that like destroys people's lives. And they're like not able to connect with that piece. It's kind of similar.
SPEAKER_01It is similar. I get the sense sometimes, yeah, almost as if the person's under a spell or like the influence of it because it's so exciting to them, they can't even pause the excitement to think outside of that. Totally. It's so innovative, it's gonna make everything so much better. It's gonna make people not have to work and famine's gonna go away. And it's gonna solve climate change for us. It's gonna solve diseases for us. Everybody's gonna have health care in the world, no matter where you are. You know, these are the things that the people are saying in the documentary about how it's gonna your kid won't school will look so much different because they can pursue their passions and these things that people uh go to school for to become you know professions and things like that, they'll they'll be taken care of. And so it's you can be a painter and this it's just but yeah, it's like then we would have to have like a socialist country for that to work.
SPEAKER_03Well, right.
SPEAKER_01There's no real thought of that either.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01If we don't have a labor based it's so it's so out of the realm of possibility in the sense of how would you even get there without upheaval?
SPEAKER_03Totally. That's and it's happening so fast. It's like, how could all those systems adjust? Exactly. Like nobody works anymore.
SPEAKER_01Right. It's like, so then how do people there's just eyes all over the place? Right.
SPEAKER_03I know. It's like that's what I mean, where it's weird where you're like, there is a few more dots you're gonna have to connect for that to feel exciting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like, how are we all paying for everything?
SPEAKER_01Well, that's how do you yeah, so we eliminate all these jobs, so then people what? They don't have to pay rent anymore. Yeah, or there's like a basic, what do they call it?
SPEAKER_03Like a a standard living wage, yeah. I mean, it would have to be more socialists, and it's like that's laughable in this country.
SPEAKER_01Anyway, it gives it's a lot of deep thinking thoughts, dark thoughts, not wanting to be with my thoughts after watching it. It was one of those documentaries you can't unsee.
SPEAKER_03To me, the only hope is in some of these upcoming elections, people are so disgusted that things change and different officials are elected, and there are some restrictions on it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Which I think are gonna be hard to get through for anyone, even someone progressive.
SPEAKER_01I know. And there's just so much money behind it.
SPEAKER_03Some like the anthropic CEO freaking out and foregoing like his vested stocks and stuff because he was so concerned about it. Like things like that, I do think are powerful. Maybe I'm naive, but I think it's I don't think that's naive.
SPEAKER_01It's a gesture. It's uh, hey, look at this over here.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there there was that other guy who worked for OpenAI, Ilya something, I can't remember his last name, but he was expected to have like a six million dollar salary, and and he turned it down because he was so against Sam Altman being at the top. He's like, we do not want this guy with his finger on the button. He's not the guy. And I'm like, that's good to speak out about and make a gesture so we can see that. Right. And people are doing that. Who knows where it'll go? But yikes. Well, it's interesting. It is, you know what's interesting? It's like, let's pretend that all worked out and like we didn't have to like work for money, blah, blah, blah. Wouldn't it be funny if like all the things like our parents and grandparents told us about like good job that's practical, like suddenly became the opposite advice.
SPEAKER_01The opposites.
SPEAKER_03It would be interesting if that happened.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we really could like just follow your passions.
SPEAKER_03Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And that would be fine.
SPEAKER_03And it's a lot of CEOs who already have tons of wealth that are like, it'll be great. And they like genuinely are out of touch with people who don't have like piles of wealth.
SPEAKER_01That's the other thing. Yeah. It's so out of touch. It just so out of touch. These people aren't living a day in, day out type of life that's anywhere near reality for a lot of people.
SPEAKER_03And they don't care about like culture enough to like be part of the like how do we rearrange this and consult you know, experts on doing this, like that.
SPEAKER_01And they also don't care enough about people who this is taking a huge toll on, and other countries who don't have means, who I mean, they brought up the water, they brought up the amount of resources this is taking. Oh my god, that's the other issue. Um the data center. So just like the the impact it's having.
SPEAKER_03I did I tell you this? I remember reading grad school, this was before AI.
SPEAKER_01No, tell me.
SPEAKER_03That if other countries used the amount of energy the United States uses, we would need four additional planets of energy. If if other countries behaved the way we behave. There would need to be four other, it would like take four planets worth of energy to power them. Isn't that crazy? It's like we are so imperialistic and terrible. Terrible. It's crazy, which uh this is obvious, but nuts. And that was before these data centers, before AI.
SPEAKER_01It's nuts. The older I get, the more I don't like being a part of our country.
SPEAKER_03No, it's awful.
SPEAKER_01It's really bad. It is I and I say that knowing how much privilege it is to live here. I'm not whining about it or anything. I'm so grateful. So many perks, so many perks.
SPEAKER_03At what cost?
SPEAKER_01At what cost? And we're just such a we're associated with just such selfishness.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Totally.
SPEAKER_01Anyway.
SPEAKER_03Totally. Well, we went a little dope.
SPEAKER_01Well, I hope you that's it. We're just gonna leave you on that. No. Yeah. Yeah, maybe sorry. I should have done I should have done reverse work.
SPEAKER_03No, I mean, I think when these conversations come up, I can't help but like all the thoughts I have. I think they are important to share and consider.
SPEAKER_01And certainly being people who consume, you know, just everything you all consume film, but also just as a documentary filmmaker.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It just I look at documentaries, I don't know how I look at them differently, but I look at them differently now that I know you, Josh. That's sweet. So I think I'm more well, one, I'm more aware of them just as a you know, like an art form.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I think I'm just more inquisitive and intentional when I watch them now.
SPEAKER_02So and I think that's because you're conscious of there's a human being who made this who's trying to manipulate and get me to form an opinion.
SPEAKER_01And um well, there's a story you're creating. It's a good thing. It's a good because I I look at it different because now I know a documentary film.
SPEAKER_03Uh totally. Yeah, I do too, because Josh will tell me like the BTS of it all. And I feel like when I watch it doc now, I'm I'm watching it like I'm like on some panel that's supposed to give it like an award or an award. It's funny. I'll be like, I don't know if they should have done that. I'm like an armchair expert.
SPEAKER_01But you but you can't, but now it's I appreciate that I can't really look at it. Yeah, totally in the same way. I didn't give it as much attention, maybe as I do now. Yeah, because I don't know all the dirty, but I know a little bit more now that I know you.
SPEAKER_03So could you imagine like if you were like Christopher Nolan, it would be hard to watch any other movie. Wouldn't it like you're so in the in the sausage being made? Or like any of these like really intense filmmakers. I don't know. I've heard a lot of comedians struggle to watch like comedy on TV. Other stand-up, I think sometimes they're okay, but like a like a sitcom, they're like, oh, I just know way too much of the behind. Yeah. But it's not like we can't go to therapy, right? Because you can't watch like a shitty movie. Sure, I can. Well, you can, but you don't. I'm gonna make Josh watch that movie Verity over the weekend.
SPEAKER_01Verity that just came out. Did you read the book? No, I did.
SPEAKER_03Did you read it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, me too.
SPEAKER_01I kind of liked it. I thought it kept me very Yeah. It's like a page turner. Yeah, yeah. It kept me very insane.
SPEAKER_03I think it's like Colleen Hoover's only good book.
SPEAKER_01Is it?
SPEAKER_03Well, I think she wrote that and then wrote all these others pretty quickly.
SPEAKER_01Was that her first novel?
SPEAKER_03I that's the first one I ever read.
SPEAKER_01That was the only one I ever read. I just always assumed that that was the first one.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. My book club read a second one, and I I couldn't get through like three pages of it. It was so bad.
SPEAKER_01That's a one-off. Did she write a follow-up to that with those characters? No, I think that's a good one. That's a one-off.
SPEAKER_03That was a one-off, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, it comes back to Josh Hartnett. We talked about him a while ago. Totally. And Anne Hathaway. Yeah. And who's the other person I'm missing?
SPEAKER_03Dakota Johnson. Johnson. Yeah. Yeah, like Anne Hathaway and Dakota Johnson are in just about everything.
SPEAKER_01I knew right away when I saw the preview for that what it was.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I read that book a long time ago.
SPEAKER_03I know. I read it a long time ago too.
SPEAKER_01Once they started that preview, though, I was like, oh yeah, this is that book. Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I I think they really cast it well out.
SPEAKER_01Do you all have tickets already? Where are you going?
SPEAKER_03No. You want to come?
SPEAKER_01No, we got I got two baseball games this weekend.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01Not only my kids' games, but also the Brewers are on tomorrow. They're in the playoffs. So we might be watching with some friends tomorrow.
SPEAKER_03Wow, that's exciting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they got a buy in the first round because they had the best record in baseball.
SPEAKER_03Wow. I know it's crazy.
SPEAKER_01They won 103 games. Oh my god. That was a franchise record. The White Sox won their first series.
SPEAKER_03Wow. Playoff series.
SPEAKER_01Playoff series, yeah. Wow. And they had four 100 loss seasons in a row, 100 loss seasons in a row. And they just got into the playoffs. This is their first series playoff win since 2005 when they won the World Series. Wow. I know. The Cubs are out.
SPEAKER_03I know. I learned that earlier this week. Yeah. What are you gonna do? That's okay.
SPEAKER_01You get the socks.
SPEAKER_03Will you not root for the I mean my family would never put on a Sox game?
SPEAKER_01Would you would you root because it's Chicago?
SPEAKER_03I would like quote unquote root if I were at the game. Okay. But I don't think I would root other than that. I mean, I feel like my brother's actively disappointed.
SPEAKER_01They will actively root against them. Okay.
SPEAKER_03That's I remember my younger brother in a in an angry rage said he would rather the Sox will lose the World Series than the Cubs win. Which is crazy. Was that before they even won? Oh my god. He says crazy things out of rage. I don't know that he is.
SPEAKER_01Out of rage. I like it.
SPEAKER_03But of course, he loves to stir the pot, of course.
SPEAKER_01Listen. Bless his heart. Sometimes it's fun to watch people lose.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_01All right. So we're gonna get into our topic.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, let's get into our topic.
SPEAKER_01Well,
DBT GIVE For Relationship Focus
SPEAKER_01we're gonna be continuing our discussion. If people remember a couple episodes ago, we talked through Deer Man, which was one of our DBT interpersonal effectiveness skills. So that was the skill that was based more in uh, you know, being effective with getting your needs or objectives met.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so talking about a sort of communication from a DBT perspective, we also want to consider these other two uh interpersonal effectiveness skills. And so it's not just all about getting our needs met, it's these other acronyms, GIVE and FAST.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And this GIVE acronym really helps you focus on this idea of maintaining the relationship. Even if you're gonna ask for something, even if you're gonna make a request. Here are some ideas to keep in mind that really help you maintain your connection to the person. Yeah. People may think these are intuitive, but I think a lot of times in the heat of the moment, we're not actively conscious of things like this always.
SPEAKER_01You might look at these and be like, well, of course. Like just do right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. But really it's hard though when you're in the stuff you forget the most.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03So let's get into
Gentle Without Losing Your Point
SPEAKER_03it. The first the first one.
SPEAKER_01So this is give, the acronym GIV, and this is right about keeping the relationship, um, being effective, maintaining healthy relationships. So the G stands for gentle. Be gentle, be nice and respectful, avoid attacks, threats, or manipulation, avoid harassment of any kind, express anger directly with words, avoid using threatening statements. For example, I'll kill myself if you, which we'll talk a little bit about that. Yeah. Describe painful consequences for not getting what you want. Describe them calmly and without exaggeration. Stay in the discussion, even if it gets painful, exit gracefully, avoid judging, moralizing, and blaming, avoid smirking, eye rolling, sucking teeth, and interrupting the other.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, sucking teeth, which is like kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01Which makes you think of silence of line.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, avoid anything from Faba Beans. Hannibal lector. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And you know what? I'm as you're reading that, reciting that, I think I think of Marsha designed DBT, her focus in her career a lot of the time were like chronically suicidal people on the borderline spectrum. Right, right. So people with some like extreme reactivity and mood lability. So yeah, like I'll kill myself if you could be a statement, you know, in her patient population that would be made. Um, and she herself was chronically suicidal and on the borderline spectrum. So she does a good job of normalizing pretty extreme statements, which I actually like because I think to judge those or shy away from those doesn't really help anyone, even if your behaviors are not nearly that extreme.
SPEAKER_01Right. And I think it will, yeah, and it's important to give that context. I'm glad you did because some people might look at this or listen to this and be like, well, where does that come from? Like I've never said that. And um definitely in the heat of the moment, we might make threats that don't sound as severe as that, but certainly with the population she was working with, that might be a go-to. Yeah. You're not there for me, if you're not meeting my needs.
SPEAKER_03Or there's versions like I'm walking out of here or I'm taking away X thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Being gentle, I always really want people to think of who are some people, or even they're just a part of your life in some capacity, and how could you be gentle with them? Yeah. Knowing that it's difficult to be around them. Yes. Like because this can be very useful in keeping relationships with people you have conf high conflict with, people who differ very much in terms of their values, uh, their morals, their decision making.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's not about just, oh, my best friend, like this is easy for me to embody. I can be gentle with them all the time and respectful. And that's fair. That is still skillful. Yeah. It's when we're in these. I always want people to also think about all relationships. How can we bring that gentleness? And that doesn't mean it has to sacrifice and we'll get into our own values, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, it that's so true. Like, most people have someone in their life it's a little harder to avoid conflict with and quell conflict with. I definitely do. That's a co-created thing in a lot of cases. Um, but but yeah, you know, like I mean, you may have someone in your life that's a little more reactive, or like little kids in your life that are all, you know, pretty reactive by nature. Yeah. And yeah, like being gentle, maintaining kind of your softness with them is something we often have to remind ourselves in an active way. Be gentle. Yeah. Even if they're not.
SPEAKER_01And still put your feelings out there, right? Express anger directly with words, describe painful consequences for not getting what you want. So we're still putting ourselves out there in a way that is maybe less volatile.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I like that. Express anger directly. Like I feel angry. It's just saying those words can be powerful because there is release, there's authentic expression, and there it's not throwing a chair or raising your voice, even.
SPEAKER_01I think sometimes people will have they don't take issue with it. I think it's hard for them to stay in the discussion even if it gets painful.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Sometimes people will have maybe the thought, what when do I know? Yeah. When it's re and and that's one of those things where there's no one answer to that. And we have to fall back on things like wise mind and kind of call on our intuition when this is painful, it's important for me to stay in it. And at a certain point, maybe I'm too dysregulated or have too much distress that I I really do need to take a break. Yeah. It's not that I'm never gonna come back to it. It's just in this moment it's I'm becoming too flooded.
SPEAKER_03So yeah, and I like that idea of a break. I think that's almost like a nice thing to wedge in here. You can be gentle even in your sharing. Like, I just need a five-minute break. I want to stay with this, I want to talk with you about this. I just need to breathe for five minutes. Like, can we come right back to this? Versus like, fuck you, I'm out of here.
SPEAKER_01I'm out of here or slamming the door. Don't even say anything.
SPEAKER_03Just get yeah, or shut down. Yeah. I'm out. So yeah, I think I think a break can be totally included in this. Like, I want to stay with this. I need a little space, briefly. Totally.
Act Interested When It’s Hard
SPEAKER_01All right. The next letter of give, act interested. So the eye is for interested, but we're trying to act interested. Listen and appear interested in the other person, listen to the other person's point of view, face the person, maintain eye contact, lean toward the person rather than away. Don't interrupt or talk over the person. Be sensitive to the person's wish to have the discussion at a later time. Be patient.
SPEAKER_03She has a few that are similar to this appear confident, act interested.
SPEAKER_01People always have a reaction to that.
SPEAKER_03Right. Like if you're not really interested, you shouldn't lie.
SPEAKER_01Right. That's you're telling me not to be authentic. You're telling me to lie.
SPEAKER_03It's almost more like embody interest. Like give yourself the best chance of being interested by making eye contact, listening, giving the person some cues of like, it's okay, I'm attuned here to what you're saying.
SPEAKER_01And it comes back to just base level respect of paying attention to a person.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That is acting interested. You don't have to be interested in what they're saying. Right. And I always challenge people if they really have a hard time with this, go for a week and only talk to people that you're truly when you feel really interested. Yeah. How often does that happen? Yeah, it's rare. Where you're 100% fully interested in what the this happens all the time. There's like a social appropriateness to this. Totally. Right.
SPEAKER_03And like take an interest. Take an interest in your interest. And sometimes you become interested. It's the best bet you have to become interested is embodying that stance.
SPEAKER_01And you're interested in keeping the relationship. What's the higher goal here? Is you're interested in keeping the relationship, or you're interested in the person. I always tell people we have to be honest with ourselves. I know for a fact that my wife is not interested in everything I'm saying. And I know for a fact that because she's interested in me as a human, she will act interested sometimes. Right.
SPEAKER_03She cares about you, she's responsible.
SPEAKER_01She cares about me. She cares about the relationship. I I'm honest and humble enough to know that I'm not that interesting in a lot of ways.
SPEAKER_03At every moment.
SPEAKER_01At every moment. And the fact that that is connection when somebody still makes it a point to pay attention to you. Yeah. Because they're interested in you as a person, you know?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean, I think it can be one of the kindest gestures to like act interested in what someone's saying. I think everybody wants to.
SPEAKER_01Think about your nieces. Think about my kids. Totally. Yes, there's amazing, interesting people. And sometimes you're like, what are you talking about? I don't care about I don't care about this. We've talked about it a million times or whatever.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But you're so invested in them as people.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And you want them to know like the things you say matter. You know, even if they don't just like naturally click with my persona, personality. I'm going to give you my attention.
SPEAKER_01Right. In an open way. With your nieces, you might say, you might be really interested in AI. Let me tell you a little bit about that. I'm going to call you on the tin can. Talk through that.
SPEAKER_03Wait, speaking of this, just as a sidebar, my brother on his birthday showed my nieces Star Wars.
SPEAKER_01Well they think they liked it. Did they? My kids think it's so slow.
SPEAKER_03I would think they would think that.
SPEAKER_01Three little girls. Glacial. The pace is just glacial.
SPEAKER_03That's so interesting. I can't believe they liked it. They're six, four, and three.
SPEAKER_01That's great.
SPEAKER_03Maybe because Kevin was so into it.
SPEAKER_01So into it. I love Star Wars.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm hoping when my kids get a little older, they have a little bit more patience with it. They'll watch them with me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01They'll act interested because I'm interested in it.
SPEAKER_03They'll give you that.
SPEAKER_01They'll give me that. Yeah. We don't have to do a marathon, but I love it. So
Validation Versus Fixing
SPEAKER_01V. So uh V is for validate. Show the person you understand the other person's feelings and thoughts about the situation. See the world from the other person's point of view and then say or act on what you see. I realize, quote, I realize this is hard for you, and I see that you are busy. Go to a private place when the person is uh uncomfortable talking in public.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01If you ever look at the DBT manual, there's like the levels of validation on the backside of this handout. And I I always try to, we don't when we're running groups, or when you and I ran groups too, we didn't really give people that. I always try to point out though the first level of validation. If you really struggle with this, I don't like this person, I have to be around them. You're telling me I have to validate them or see the world from their point of view. The first level of validation is paying attention to somebody.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Just attention.
SPEAKER_01Just pay attention to them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so if that's all you can do, that is still a gesture of trying to validate them. Completely. But I cut you off.
SPEAKER_03Um, I was just gonna say, since I don't know about you, but since being trained in DBT, I think this is one of the words I say so much more than I would if I was if I was in another profession, like validation is such a huge part of DBT. And the specifics, right? Of like it doesn't mean you have to completely fuse with what someone believes. It is this like honoring that there's validity in their stance, them as a person, and showing them that in some way, yeah. Looking at them saying, I hear you.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03You know, or the deepest level is probably saying, I agree, you know, if you happen to.
SPEAKER_01But it could also be uh repeating back, rephrasing, yeah, or clarifying, saying, you know, just so I'm on the same page. Yeah, this is what I hear you saying. And it allows the person the opportunity to say, Yeah, wow, this person's really listening, or even it gives them the opportunity to maybe clarify something that we've missed we haven't heard.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's powerful validation.
SPEAKER_01And this is really hard for people that want to be fixers, yeah. Especially if I'm thinking more like partnered relationships or even friendships. Yeah. Because I have some friends that immediately want to go to fix. What are we doing with this? Yeah. Like, how do we and it's well, it's not really what I'm looking for right here. Just kind of that listening.
SPEAKER_03I know, isn't it funny? It's like there are times you want someone to like take something away for you, but it's like there's so many almost like more times you just want to be known in what you're going through. Anyway, yeah, it's an interesting thing, but validation is huge in DBT and huge in maintaining a relationship. Like could not be overstated.
SPEAKER_01And when we think about borderline, right, yeah, extreme invalidation is yeah, part of characteristic. What yeah, is a characteristic of what possibly led to that kind of diagnosis, or or we don't know exactly, but it it contributes to it, that extreme invalidation of your experience as growing up chronically. Yeah. Totally. Maybe more specifically by caregivers, but okay.
Easy Manner And Dropping Attitude
SPEAKER_01So the last letter E of give is easy manner. So can we try to use an easy manner? Use a little humor, smile, ease the person along, be lighthearted, sweet talk, use a soft sell over a hard sell, be political. Uh oh.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And leave your attitude at the door. Now, this was written a long time ago. In 2015, which probably I don't know how much it differs from the 93 manual. Right. But certainly political had a different connotation to it. But yeah, what do you think of easy manner? Sometimes when we read this, when we're going over it in group, people really are like, What is what is she really going for? Right, totally.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, when I think of easy manner, as I always give Marsha the benefit of the doubt, when I think of easy manner, I think of like be light, be open, like your actual manner. Don't have it be so harsh.
SPEAKER_01Not so rigid.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Like there can be humor in there that's very characteristic of DBT, like a little irreverence. Be political as like diplomatic in the way you language things and and that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01Um there's nothing more off-putting to me and somebody who I will shut down if I'm around a person who will not laugh at something. Yeah. Oh, it's the worst. It's so off-putting. Yeah. Because I feel like I can find a little bit of humor in most things. Totally. Yeah. Same. And when you're talking to somebody and they're a stone, I I want eject. I don't want to be in that. I know. It's like, what is what is that? Yeah. I know. It's crazy. It's so rigid and inflexible and hard and cold, and I just don't get it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I know. Yeah, there must be something in their background with that. But it can be such a breath of fresh air in a tense moment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I might be the type of person who lean leans a little too heavily into easy manner and might use humor a little bit too much. I know we did the humor episode, and I'm I'm certainly guilty of that, trying to make a joke sometimes. And um, so I need to watch that. And I do think at times it can ease people along a little bit or ease the ease the tension.
SPEAKER_03Then one leave your attitude at the door. That one is like Yeah, leave your attitude at the door. I I almost have a little reaction to that.
SPEAKER_01What's your reaction? What? Like that attitude at the door.
SPEAKER_03It sounds like a parent being like, Don't be upset, go fix your face.
SPEAKER_01Don't you think though she's trying to say, come into it with like a beginner's mind? Totally. But people who don't read DBT literature and nerds about it would know that, right? Yeah, right. So it's more about easy manners like come in with an open mind. Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_03Come in with an open mind. Not leaving allow the defenses to soften.
SPEAKER_01Soften.
SPEAKER_03Be open totally. I like that beginner's mind. Empty your cup. Empty your cup.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Leave those preconceived notions at the door. Yeah. Not the attitude. Right. I think she was coming for you with that one. She knows you.
SPEAKER_03It's like, what's this attitude? It's like to me, it like what is this? It really invalidates that like you might be feeling pain in this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I guess that I never really thought about it in that way.
SPEAKER_03I think the word attitude is pretty like triggering for some.
SPEAKER_01Attitude?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Because it's kind of dismissive of the thing.
SPEAKER_01It is dismissive and it is something you would say to like a high school kid. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But I've said it also. Like I've said it more of like I don't even have the space to engage with someone's internality. It's like, what's with the tooth? You know, like that's kind of the feeling. So I've definitely done it. And I feel like a lot of my teenagers, like people were asking, like, drop the attitude. Or say saying, You need an attitude adjustment. Oh my god, yeah.
SPEAKER_01People don't say that anymore, do they? Right.
SPEAKER_03You need a little attitude adjustment.
SPEAKER_01That was something that when I was growing up, people would be like, you need an attitude adjustment. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03When really it's like I might be struggling with something that I need to like process.
SPEAKER_01I mean, talk about people who are probably having attitude because they're feeling so many extreme emotions. It's adolescents, and I mean kids. Of course, they're gonna have an attitude.
SPEAKER_03They're kind of supposed to.
SPEAKER_01Their hormones are all over the place. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And they're just figuring out limits and boundaries and their ideas.
SPEAKER_01So they're gonna be little jerk stores.
unknownTotally.
SPEAKER_01I'm coming up on that pretty quick, probably, too. Yeah. It's gaining on you. Um, okay, so that's the give skill. So some of the things we want to keep in mind, and I guess to tie a bow on it is, you know, maybe just some of those things to think about. And you have to be honest with yourself. Maybe there are certain things that you do struggle with that's mentioned there, and how could you maybe lean in a little bit to these different areas? So now we're gonna transition into our how wise is it question.
Refrigeration Skeptics Versus Fridge Pros
SPEAKER_01So we're gonna be talking about refrigeration. How wise is it to refrigerate everything?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, to kind of be pretty gung-ho.
SPEAKER_01Pretty gung-ho refrigeration, but everything the phone gung-ho.
SPEAKER_03Um, yeah, I I'm I am a refrigerator skeptic a little bit. With some things.
SPEAKER_01We might differ on that. I think I might lean refrigerator pro. No, no, no. You tell me. You start with skepticism. I want to hear the skepticism of it.
SPEAKER_03I don't like the way the refrigerator makes a lot of things taste.
SPEAKER_01You think it takes the tastiness out of food? Yeah. And then it all kind of tastes the same.
SPEAKER_03Right. It kind of tastes like the inside of the fridge.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03And like like if you like you make a pasta dish and you put it in a container and you put it in the fridge, it loses so much. So I often will like put things in a container but leave it on the counter.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03Even overnight.
SPEAKER_01So you make said pasta dish.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You put it in a container. Yeah. The leftovers. And you leave it on your counter.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then you have to eat it the next day.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You're not going two days on that.
SPEAKER_03I mean, but I really wouldn't go two days refrigerated or not. Okay. I'm not like a leftovers queen. Josh likes leftovers. Okay.
SPEAKER_01He'll he'll go a week out. Well, that maybe changes the perspective then. If you're not going to refrigerate for more longer term, and maybe that is wise for you.
SPEAKER_03If I think like, okay, maybe I'll eat this like over the week. It's let's say it's like white rice or something. I will refrigerate that if it's like gonna be the fourth day I might be scooping some out of there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Then I will refrigerate it.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I'm gonna list a few things. You tell me your refrigeration perspective.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01Hot sauce.
SPEAKER_03You know, I'm new to the hot sauce game, and everyone I know puts it in the fridge, so I've never even thought about that. Okay. Could I leave? I guess I could leave it out.
SPEAKER_01Well, I don't know. That's the thing. Isn't it just like oil and yeah, like peppers? Like peppers and you probably could leave it out.
SPEAKER_03Next hot sauce. Yeah, I would leave it out. Soy sauce. It's another one I don't question as much. I put it in there. I guess sauces I put in there.
SPEAKER_01Sauces you put in. Yeah. Eggs.
SPEAKER_03Eggs I put in, but I when I studied abroad in England, they left them in the cabinet. Maybe that's those eggs. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Now, how do you feel about your fruit?
SPEAKER_03Fruit, I really like to leave out. We cut up fruit and sometimes we don't eat all of it. Then we'll scoop that up and put it in the fridge. Okay. If it's not cut up, definitely out of the fridge. Put grapes in the fridge. But grapes just taste nice cold.
SPEAKER_01You like a crispy cold grape.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Although actually, sometimes I like them to get to room temp. That's because I have sensitive teeth these days. Got it. So I would leave those out too. Interesting. You ever eat a frozen grape? Those are good. I wish I could take them with my teeth because I bet they taste really good.
SPEAKER_01They're crunchy.
SPEAKER_03But chewing on something frozen does not work for me.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. I I maybe it's family of origin. I feel like refrigerator was where it was at. You kind of put everything in there. Yeah. And I don't mind. Maybe this is where the how wise is it where we differ is I I will make food in bulk for the week and put it in the fridge. Yeah. So it'll be in there, you know, Monday through Friday.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'll still be eating it on Friday.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, same with Josh. So that's not because I think it's gross. Like that's because it's bad.
SPEAKER_01No, but I still enjoy the flavor of it.
SPEAKER_03Right. I wish I were like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I'm such a little bit of a big thing. Maybe my palate.
SPEAKER_01Well, maybe my palate isn't as sensitive.
SPEAKER_03Well, that's probably nice in a lot of ways easier.
SPEAKER_01I don't know, but I do get a little bit worried about food safety stuff.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. But like I've never really had issues with that. And once I ate like batterugla on it.
SPEAKER_01Neither have I. I think I've maybe just, again, family of origin, and I've read too many articles.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That I shouldn't be reading.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's like, and then you think about cyclospore, it's like that was more of like a food system issue. Yeah. And yeah, like they tell us we can protect ourselves by like really, really, really washing, which like you can do anyway. But that that was an issue with the food system that people were getting so sick, not because like people were leaving it out.
SPEAKER_01But I I so here's where two points where we differ. And I you two know this about me. I've mentioned it on the podcast. Sarah hates it. It's gross to people. Number one. Well, this isn't a gross thing. I like most of my fruit, if not all of my fruit, in the refrigerator.
SPEAKER_03Really?
SPEAKER_01I like a cold apple.
SPEAKER_03A banana?
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm sorry. Bananas are the exception. Okay.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01Bananas I leave out. Right. But I like my oranges. I like my apples, my pineapple, my I like it all cold.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01I really like it cold. Okay, I like pineapple cold. I'll put some of that fruit in my lunch, certainly. It's not like I will refuse. I really like it cold though. Now here's the gross thing. I like room temperature sparkling water.
SPEAKER_03Whoa! Record scratches. Okay. Whoom? So you leave you're like one of those people that leaves it like on the ground next to the top.
SPEAKER_01Oh, on the ground. It's on the ground.
SPEAKER_03I have my brother and sister-in-law do it.
SPEAKER_01I have a case of spindrift. I have hop water. I got I got all of it out.
SPEAKER_03God, we really are two opposites in that because like not only do I like it cold, I basically only like the first few sips because it's really cold. And then if it gets even a little under that, I give it to Josh. I'm like, I don't like it anymore. It's not gonna be. I mean, I could hear that.
SPEAKER_01I don't know why. It I feel like it's more efferve seer. Yeah, it's like more effervescent. Wow. But to I actually think the fridge kills the flavor sometimes of a spindra. I think the it's more flavor forward when it's room temperature.
SPEAKER_03Right. I could see that.
SPEAKER_01For some reason, I don't know why. So I your kill your fridge killing thing happens to me with sparkling water.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_03I like it.
SPEAKER_01I mean, this is like we are in two different worlds here, opposite ends of the spectrum. That's pretty wild. I know, and it grosses people out. Totally. Even I I can tell, you know, Sarah, she's the kindest person. I she cringes a little bit when she offers it to people when they come over because she knows it's warm.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01She'll be like, Do you want a sparkling water? Because we have some, they're not in the fridge. But yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, like if you were said that and I'd be like, sure. And then you said it was room five.
SPEAKER_01I'd be like, no, thank you. I really try to make an effort when we do have people over to throw a few in the fridge. And it's not like I won't drink them if they're in the fridge. I just really prefer them room temperature. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, you've got to do it the way you prefer it in your own home.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. I know. Isn't that crazy?
SPEAKER_03Interesting. I mean, everyone's different. Everyone is different. And I hear you on like if you really like the flavor. It probably does kill the flavor a little bit. Lately, when I've been drinking spindrift, sometimes I'm like, oh, this really tastes like the can. Do you have that?
SPEAKER_01Yes. The container is an interesting perspective because I think some foods just take on it. And I think there are some canned drinks that do taste a little bit like aluminum.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Or not even like almost like a some soups, too. I won't say coppery taste, but almost metallic. Metallic for sure. Metallic. Yeah. What an invention, the refrigerator.
SPEAKER_03I mean, it's gray totally. Like it's huge.
SPEAKER_01Game changer. Yeah. And for like raw meat. In the world, game changer. Yeah, absolutely. Are you one of these people who buys uh like a lot of coffee beans and then puts it in your freezer?
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_01Coffee rounds. Don't people do that? People in the fridge?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. You really are never. You're not supposed to put it in that fridge. Yeah. If you have to store it and it can't be on the counter case. Isn't that a common thing though? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Tons of people do it. When I was in high school, I famously worked at Starbucks and they trained us like never, never, never put it in the fridge. Never put it in the fridge. Keep it on the counter and like drink it and use it, and that's what you do with it. That's what you do. But then they were like, oh, because people would buy the Christmas blend. Which, like, if you haven't had Starbucks Christmas blend, it's a trick in bulk. So that they could use it all year.
SPEAKER_01It's only that time of year. During that time.
SPEAKER_03So people would buy that and freeze it. And it's like, okay, if you're gonna buy it ahead of time for a limited edition thing, and you have to store it, then freeze the beans. The beans. Not the grounds. The beans. Yeah. So I feel strongly about keeping it on the counter and just drinking it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Buy it, buy it when you need it. Don't buy it in bulk unless you really have to. Yeah. I don't know. Jish, as we're wrapping up here, what do you think? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'll leave my food out all day. Well, I've converted you.
SPEAKER_01And I grew up in a refrigerator household. You're converted. The frig. Mazletov.
SPEAKER_02My mom invented the frig.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you guys affectionately call the refrigerator the frig.
SPEAKER_03The frig. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Not the brig, but the frig.
SPEAKER_02I'm on the frig of sanity right now.
SPEAKER_03What do you say?
SPEAKER_02Nothing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you've become a convert to my ways, but but you will ask me with some things. And like honestly, it's like just catch me in the right mood, and I'm like, eh, put that one in the fridge. And there's no rhyme or reason.
SPEAKER_01It's really interesting because I feel like you're very cautious about a lot of things.
SPEAKER_03I know.
SPEAKER_01With this, you're not though.
SPEAKER_03I'm really not that cautious with this. I kind of go by my experience where I'm like, I don't know, it hasn't really been an issue.
SPEAKER_02I think you're cautious about wanting things to taste good.
SPEAKER_03I mean, yeah, I'm like so. Yeah, I guess that's where the caution comes in. Yeah. Like I can't risk it tasting bad. That's risky.
SPEAKER_01It is a risky problem.
SPEAKER_03Or sometimes, like, not always, but like sometimes I trust my own palate to be like, if I taste something, I'm like, ooh, you know, like then I won't have it. Don't ingest. Yeah. Oh man. So that's our how always is it.
Butter On The Counter And Gear Talk
SPEAKER_03Tell us what you think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I want to know what are people doing. What are people putting in their fridge? But more importantly, what are you keeping out that we should be keeping out?
SPEAKER_03The big one is butter. Like, do you leave any butter out?
SPEAKER_01I do leave butter out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we leave butter out. Some of it. A little bit.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Because it's nice to have room. You like to have a room 10. Yeah. Do you have one of those round dishes? Butterbell no. Is that what it's called? Yeah. Yeah, with the water. People say they really love that.
SPEAKER_03I know. I gotta get one. I don't really know the physics of it.
SPEAKER_01I don't either, but they seem they look pretty cool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I would get one.
SPEAKER_01I need to get on one like that.
SPEAKER_03It's like the cold water like keeps it up there. I don't know. We're never gonna know. Maybe maybe someone will get us a butterbell or I'll order one and then I'll let people know.
SPEAKER_01But if you have one, I mean we're not that far off from the holiday season.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Could be a good Christmas gift. I also want a meat press. Like a chef's press. You've ever seen those, like people make steak. Put the steak down like in the cast arm. And then it's like heavy, it's almost like a weight.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, my brother has one of those.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I want to get one.
SPEAKER_01He got he used to have a green egg grill, but then he got one of those flat top ones for outside. So he can make the burgers with the or chicken. He makes the chicken breasts. So like marinate them and then put them on there, and they're like.
SPEAKER_03Oh nice. And they get really brown and crispy. I'm going to order one. We're doing it. Yeah, it's happening. So the butterbell is a little bit more. Next episode's gonna be grilling. Yeah, totally. Okay, well, thanks everyone.
SPEAKER_01Yes, we're gonna round out that. All right, I don't know why I said round out because it's a triangle, but we'll finish up the interpersonal effectiveness triangle with the fast skill in
Where To Find Us And Closing
SPEAKER_01our next episode. It's a little teaser there. Um find me at buttsbutz.jonathan at gmail.com. Email me questions uh if you want to be a guest on the podcast. Um, whether you're in the field or not, we'd love to hear from you. What about you?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, totally. Um, if you want to reach me, you can find me at kkpsychotherapy.com. If you want to work with me, if you want to come on the pod, if you have questions or thoughts, reach me at the the inquiry page there. And how about you, Josh?
SPEAKER_02If you really want to reach me, you can reach me at Josh Bayer Films. That's Bayer E Y E R is in the aspirin. I got a YouTube, I got a website, either one. Just come check it out. Check out the shorts, that's where it's at on the YouTube. On a wise mind happy hour, you can totally separate YouTube page. Uh check that out. We got long videos of all the episodes. We got short videos of all the episodes. Come check it out.
SPEAKER_01Come check it out.
SPEAKER_02Rate review the pod.
SPEAKER_01Rate the pod, review it. Blake and forks, thank you. We love you. We really love you. Thank you for the music. And you all take care.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, take care. We'll see you next time. Take so much care. The Wivemind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.