What Teens Say They Need To Calm Anxiety And Quit Numbing | Dr. Suzanne Simpson

If you’ve ever looked at a teenager and wondered…

Why are they so withdrawn?
Why won’t they talk to me?
Why does everything feel like a battle?

This conversation may completely change how you interpret what you’re seeing.

In this episode, Dr. Suzanne Simpson shares what teenagers consistently say they actually need when anxiety rises and emotional overwhelm takes over.

Spoiler:

It isn’t discipline.
It isn’t more rules.
It isn’t another strategy.

It’s something far more human.

We explore:

• Why teen behavior is often protection, not defiance
• The hidden role of emotional safety
• What anxiety really looks like in adolescents
• Connection before correction
• Trauma, stress, and the developing brain
• Why teens shut down instead of open up
• Practical shifts parents can make immediately
• How understanding changes everything

Because teens don’t resist guidance…

They resist feeling misunderstood.

✅ Show Notes / Guest Links

Connect with Dr. Suzanne Simpson:

🌍 Website:
https://www.drsuzannesimpson.com

▶️ YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@DrSuzanneGetonTheirTurf

📸 Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/drsuzannesimpson/

🔗 LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drsuzannesimpson/

If you’re raising, teaching, or supporting a teen, share this with someone who needs to hear it.

Subscribe for conversations on anxiety, behavioral patterns, Quiet Depletion™, and Delay the Binge™.

Your past does not define you, it prepares you.

Transcript

Rethinking Teen “Behavior”

SPEAKER_00 0:00

If you have a teenager who won't talk to you, or you work with young people who seem anxious, defiant, or completely shut down, this episode could change how you see them. What if the problem isn't their behavior, but whether they feel safe enough to be honest? Today you're going to hear from a researcher who asks teenagers one simple question. When your mental health is struggling, what do you actually need? And their answers might surprise you. This is about connection before correction, presence before pressure, and why trust is the only thing that truly lowers anxiety. I'm Pam Dwyer, and this is Delay the Binge. Today I'm joined by Dr. Suzanne Simpson. Dr. Simpson is an educator, researcher, speaker, and host of the podcast Get On Their Turf. She has spent over three decades supporting young people, both in classrooms and on a youth psychiatric unit,

Meet Suzanne And Her Research

SPEAKER_00 1:05

serving some of the most vulnerable teens. Her doctoral research focused on a powerful question: what do teenagers say they actually need when anxiety rises and substance use increases? Suzanne, welcome to the show. I'm so honored you're here.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Pam Dwyer, you have done your homework. You have done your homework. I have never had such an introduction.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Like, you know what I'm going to say. Well, that's what I was going to ask you next. I just, you know, I was sharing with you before we recorded how impressed I am with you, helping young people find their voices and giving them confidence and self-esteem. I just love what you do. But instead of summarizing your work, I think it's just such a sad thing when we just summarize all your work. So can you tell us a little bit about where you're at and what you're passionate about right now? Sure. So I go by Suzanne.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

I hate the doctor. I really hate the doctor. I was born into privilege that I could just work 12 hour days. That's all it was. I was born into a home of like a lot of security. That there's who are we to put doctor in front of our name, except that I do it just by title because nobody knows me. But I am a teacher. I'm always clear that I am not a registered counselor. I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a psychiatrist. I taught for 20 years in a very academic program here in Canada. It's French immersion, so it's all in French. And I'd have, you know, seven lawyers and five doctors in a class of parents.

From Elite Classrooms To Psych Unit

SPEAKER_01 2:32

And then I flipped in 2018 to the psychiatric unit with as a teacher in a small classroom there. And our kids were there for an average of a three-week stay. We were an end-of-the-road unit. So the kids had to have exhausted all community supports before they got to us. I might get tearful talking about this today because I'm still just shattered that we closed after I was there for five and a half years. And just the stories, like I actually had, I couldn't bring work home stories home anymore. I lost eight kids in my five and a half years that I know of. And that's where I did my research. It was on that unit in this little classroom. And it was like, yeah, what did you need? What did you need as your mental health deteriorated and your substance use increased? And fascinating, there was not a single program, not a single worksheet, not a single framework that they said. It was what you've just introduced. It's all about connection, being supported, understood, and cared for. So that's that's my heart now. That's what I I just feel that our youth are not doing well. Our whole world is disconnected. And what they said is what I need as an adult. So it actually speaks to humanity.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Well, and quite frankly, teenagers are little mini adults. They have they're starting their first job, sort of thing called life. Yep. And they're they're learning things the hard way. But it's their lessons to learn. That's what they always my son reminded me one time. I was like, son, I'm just trying to help you from making a mistake. I don't want you to make a mistake. He's like, Mom, they're my mistakes to make. Good for him. How old was he when he said that? He was 18.

unknown 4:11

Good.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

He wanted to get married, but I just okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

That's a little bit a bigger decision.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

I know. I'm like, why don't you wait? There's no difference. Just date.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Date her. You know, the best advice I ever got as a mother, because I have two kids. My kids are 20, 21 now, was it is not my journey. It's their journey. Yes, it is. Now, early marriage, and have hard time, you know, my kids know I'm not paying for a wedding until they're 25. But but really, like it is their lives, and we want to micromanage and we want to, you know, bubble wrap and we want to protect them from the world. And that's the worst thing for them, isn't it? Like they have to learn on their own.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

I grew up in a very dysfunctional way, but I still to this day think I learned more by getting out there on my own. You know, it was the hardware knocks, but you know, it made me who I am today.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

So if you think about our careers, Mike, I'm I'm guessing you'll say the same. The biggest mistakes I made that like are cringe worthy now that I'm 53, I'm just starting to share them from 30 years ago.

What Teens Actually Need

SPEAKER_01 5:22

I'm so embarrassed. But those were what formed me the most. And those were the mistakes that I needed to make to get to where I understood. And I I I knew my craft. I had to make the mistakes. We have to.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Yes, you do. And and just if it just deter what they need help with is how to use that pain for purpose, you know. Sometimes they just the shame and the fear and the guilt, you know, it consumes them, which is why they need people like you out there. Um so you spent years uh asking teens directly what they need instead of assuming. What did you what did they say? I mean, like what was the majority of their answers? Was it what you expected?

SPEAKER_01 6:10

So uh there were a few things that came out that I was gobsmacked with. Uh, I just wanna, but if I could just preface this, and you you probably read this, then I I've written this, is that we all think we're hot stuff as adults. And I'll tell you, educators are the worst where we know the kids and we know what they want. And if you look at the literature in education, it's all of these experienced teachers with decades saying what the kids want. And there's actually very little literature where we're asking the kids themselves, and that goes too, I think, for counseling books and therapeutic books. So the main thing that they said was they want to be supported, understood, cared for. I was like, that's it. Four years of my life. That's it. A decade now, right? Just so basic, so basic. Support, understanding, and care. And and those three, though, I mean, there's so much dialogue around around each of those. But here's what's interesting is why did I have to do the research then? So, what what I found and wrote about is that what the kids see that they need is also what the majority said that they are not getting. Now, my research was within education, within schools. We've got so many well-meaning educators, but there's a a dichotomy of perspective. And adults, I think we think that we're giving them what they need, but you talk to the kids and they don't feel that. And I'm talking too about kids that weren't in psychiatric units that are high performing. I had a class president of a very affluent high school near here help me with my neurology piece, part of my thesis. And I had taught him and he read it and he said, Oh my gosh, this is exactly what I needed. As hotshot class president, he's done a neurology degree that's a very hard program to get into. And he said, I still needed it. So they all so support, understanding, and care. Uh, two things, I think maybe, I mean, I could just, I'm not gonna talk your ear off, but the two things that stand out within the research, number one is the power of understanding and what that means. And what came out over and over in my data is actually understanding is inextricably linked to not being judged. So I have said if you want to shut down your kid, you want to end a conversation, you're a teacher, and you want that kid out of the classroom, you start judging, act like you're judging, sound like you're judging, or look like a look on your face like you're judging. It shuts it down in a heartbeat. So, how can we approach kids? But this is all all of our relationships because we're all like this, aren't we? How can we approach another without judgment? And right now in our world, it is a very judgmental place. I am very guilty looking at politics around me. I'll be the first to say, right? And and we I I I've had, you know, contentiousness, I've had conflict over politics, and I can't imagine I'm

Judgment Shuts Teens Down

SPEAKER_01 9:20

in Canada. I can't imagine the conflict in the States. And then how though to do that without judgment? I mean, that's an extreme, I think, situation to be in, but it really is fundamental for healthy relationships. And so, as parents to their kids, you need to know your kids neurologically wired for a negativity bias. So if you say something, they're gonna take that a thousand times more negatively than an adult would.

unknown 9:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Neurological.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

They're dealing with a lot of things, a lot of fear, a lot of uncertainties, and they're just, yeah, they're ex super hypersensitive about things. So you're right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

And their brains aren't their brains aren't developed till 25 years old is another thing. And part of it is there's they they don't have that connection still from the the emotional brain, the limbic system to the front, to the prefrontal cortex. So when you have a disconnection between your emotions and your reasoning, of course, that's gonna happen more. It's it this is a neurological level. So, so taking that then, like understanding they will glom onto the negative and maybe misperceive things as they are a growing brain. And when we approach them, like to not have that judgment. And so I did an interview with this wonderful woman who's like, get your head out of your butt. Like if you want to understand, if you want to understand somebody, you got to get your own head out of your butt. I'm like, oh, that's actually really good. Because it means I have to take my own experience out of it, my own expectations, my assumptions, my own history. It's all got to go when I am in conversation with anybody. But, you know, we're talking teenagers. So that's number one. And the second one, this is this is, I think, a powerful piece of information for education and parents. I was gobsmacked. I uh this is a biggest shocker I had, and nobody has guessed it when I asked them to hypothesize. I need to start bringing a bottle of wine to give it away if anybody does get it, because I've nobody has guessed this in a few years. So I asked 25 kids, what was the best thing about my psychiatric classroom? It's calm, play music, there's food, there's an espresso, there's books, like super chill. I'm there, right? Nobody said anything to do with any of that. 25 students all had responses related with success. All 25, meaning I did a math question, I was able to read a little bit, I handed something in. Maybe I can graduate. I learned I like psychology, maybe I can go to university, every single one of them. And yet, how often do they act that they don't care? So I say they're lying. If they are acting, they don't care, it's protective, they're lying. But what the thing is about success, A, you feel better about yourself. So there's your self-worth. But

Teen Brain, Bias, And Misreads

SPEAKER_01 12:05

what I found in the kids that I worked with was it is their hope and their hope for a future. Maybe I can change the script here. Maybe I can live on my own and break this cycle within my family. Maybe I can like pay the bills on my own and live a meaningful life. So it it was very shocking to me the extent. I mean, we could guess it, but the extent was very, it's very powerful information.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Wow, that is incredible. And I can relate to that. You know, as I shared with you, I worked in youth ministry and and I found that I spent more time uh counseling parents than I did the act the kids, because they weren't challenging um the the kids to find their own identity, even if it was different than their the parents. The parents just wanted to protect them and make sure that they're okay, which is normal for parents to do, a good parent. Um, but the the child just had no idea what they liked. They knew what their parents wanted them to like.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Yeah you know, but the identity thing was was big and giving them a voice so that they can find themselves. A lot of times they feel like they don't have one.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Yeah. We are doing our kids zero favors if we're gonna go in and fix the problem or avoid the problem or talk through the problem where they should be managing it, right? Where they should be sorting that out bec or as they age appropriately, because it's called the big bad world of adulting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Yeah. You gotta be ready. You gotta be ready. And I think as parents, I think parents and anyone working with with teens should remember that listening is a skill. Listening is not really, we don't work on that a lot. Because what is listening? You know, listen listening is like, tell me more, you know, instead of judging immediately and saying, well, you can't do that because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's why they're negative teens. That's why they're down on themselves. They just think that everything they, every thought they have is bad or wrong or failed.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

You know, in truth, you you know, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

I wrote I looked all into listening. I did a deep dive on on listening. And I I'd say that teachers are really bad. Like we're we're we are bad listeners. And and then you add a parent on top of that because there's three things. We listen because we're supposed to. Supposed to be listening. I'm a good teacher or a good parent. I'm supposed to be listening, so it's kind of nominal. Or I listen to verify my assumptions. There they go again, complaining again. I this is what I knew, or to plan our next response. How often do we listen and we're thinking of how we're gonna respond to that versus just authentically listening? It's hard.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

It's hard to do that. Well, and you need a huge a huge dose of empathy, right, as a parent. Because if you don't put yourself or remember when you were their age, you know, sort of thing, you know, we forget. Yeah. Yep. What it feels like. So I understand um you've worked with teens in a psychiatric unit. Now that is like seeing crisis up close, like being on the battlefield to me, is what it sounds like. Can you can you help us understand what trauma actually does to a teen's nervous system and why is

Success As Hope, Not Ego

SPEAKER_00 15:45

behavior so often um like protection and it's not rebellion. You know, like parents think think that they're just rebellious and they don't want to do anything they're supposed to do. But I think in reality, like you said earlier, they're protecting themselves.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Is I think yes, the opposite of trauma is connection. So that answering you is multifaceted, really, on so many levels. But for kids with trauma, we know. Well, I don't, I've not done the research, but research shows that we know trauma affects the brain at a neurological level. Gray matter decreases. We know so volumetric changes, volume changes in that thinking part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex, the emotional part of the brain, the I just lost an earring, the uh the emotional part of the brain, the limbic system. So there's a lack of like the volume changes, and then there's a lack of connection too between those two parts. We know it affects your HTPA, because it's like all, you know, your amygdala, your hippocampus. At a structural level, trauma affects the brain. And what I say to teachers is look at Naomi Osaka. She was fined $15,000 as a tennis player who in 2022 made $60 million and she would not speak after that French open match. And she said it was because of anxiety and depilitating anxiety and just mood and all of these things. And they find her. Now, if she had broken her leg on the court and she had a bone sticking out of her skin, would they have fined her? Absolutely not. She goes off to the hospital. So my point on that is, and the reason I use her as analogy is we don't understand the unseen. And then we have assumptions of people of lashing out and how they might behave and, you know, words that they might say without an understanding that there is a neurological impact from trauma. I am not excusing poor behavior and I don't agree that we'll then just let it happen. That's not what I'm saying. But it does impact. And then that causes the list, what comes out causes stuff like misbehavior, fight or flight, or freeze, and kids are impulsive and they can react, you know, immediately and loudly and throw the F-bombs and knowing that they shouldn't be doing things and yet they do it, and lashing out. So at school, they don't, there's there's less focus. It's harder to just sit there. I mean, the list goes on and on and on. So that's for kids with trauma. And we do know healing can happen from that malleable brain, and we know that neural pathways can strengthen. But I just want to, Pam, also bring out what about a kid who's not had a lot of trauma, who's lashing out and misbehaving? There's your connection right here. And what I can say that I saw in that psychiatric unit is I got those kids that were dealing the drugs, that were terrified when our wonderful RCMP or police liaison officer came in because they had been arrested and had their own, you know, the kids that were suspended from school and those kids. And with me, they I just they just want to be loved and want to know that they are worthy. And what they don't say is they want people to show them that they're worthy. And that all does come from connection. And so that is your number one. So for parents whose kids are lashing out or you know, not engaging at all and acting like they don't care or the content what the conflict was going on. You you start by where does the connection begin? And that's like my whole get on their turf mantra. That's what it

Listening That Builds Safety

SPEAKER_01 19:40

is. Hey, what do you want to go do? There's a spectrum. If they're really far away, it's like, hey, do you want to go get a burger? Like, do you want to go for a walk? Do you what do you want to do? Like getting on their turf is what do they want to do? And then your next level could be like, where do they want to be? Kids don't want to be finding their mom and dad in an office, Pam. What they love is a parent knocking on their door, hey, can I come in and plunking on the floor and just chatting? Yes. Getting on their turf in their area. And so what do they want to do? Where do they want to be? And then the last one I talk about is how are they? Like getting on their turf with how they are might be psychologically. So if your child's got significant anxiety, go learn about it. Or depression, or if we've got a lot more kids suicidal, go learn dialectical behavior therapy and you become that advocate for your child even more. So it's, it's, that's what it is. It's very, very easy. And I have watched behavior specialists with behavior charts and graphs and colors and color coding, and they're working with the home so that it's there's not the conflict. And my response is they just want to go for a burger with mom and dad. They just want mom and dad to say, Hey, let's go, let's go spend time because you are so worthy. I want to go spend some time with you. That's how great I think you are.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Yes, investing in them as yes, time is so much more valuable than anything they can spend on them or give them. Yeah. Yeah. And just getting on their level. Um, we do a lot of uh research right now on quiet, I call it quiet depletion. And it's for high performing people, not just teens, but adults as well. We are so busy, right? And we're just doing what we're supposed to do, whether we want to or not. We're going through the motions, checking off the boxes, and for teens, it's probably just as, or if not more, uh stressful. And so they're doing all the things that like a robot, like you're doing everything you have to do, you know is correct, even though and so what you eventually do is you start finding ways to cope with those emotions that you're ignoring. You know, you're getting stressed, you're getting exhausted. You are mentally exhausted. And I love when you talk about the frontal cortex versus the lower part of the brain, which we I refer to as the caveman.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yeah, it's it's the reptilian brain, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Yes. Yes. Because it develops just wants to comfort you temporarily. And that's where addiction comes in, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:18

It's the first develops too. It develops first. Our brain develops back to front. Okay. So as the brain developed over history, it's that back limbic system that developed first. And in a child growing up, the last developed part of the brain is the front, is that reasoning, rationale, logic at the front, prefrontal cortex. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

And it's like it's moving forward, I guess. But it is. But to bring that frontal cortex online, that's where we teach the pause. You see, delay the binge is all about the purposeful pause where you take a moment to think, okay, why I'm about to co why am I about to consume my sixth glass of wine tonight during the week? What's really going on? But I wish so much adults would ask that of teens. All right, their their behavior is unacceptable.

Trauma, Brains, And “Misbehavior”

SPEAKER_00 23:05

They're being horrible, very defiant. But what's really going on? Totally. And if parents ask that question, what's really happening?

SPEAKER_01 23:15

But here's part of it. Like you said, like parents are frazzled on their own. Yes. Right. And more frazzled than when we were growing up. When I was growing up, I don't remember the chaos around me of the world around me and everything that's happening globally. And then on top of that, work and finances and you got to pay the bills. I think that we have a double whammy now because I do think that parents are more frazzled than ever. Yeah. And there's more financial insecurity, which just compounds it. And now we're putting teenagers that are already on screens with that, with mom and dad going through the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Yes. But I, you know, you've pointed this out so much. I I was just so impressed with all of your work, but you point out that adults are going through the same type of stuff as the as the teens. And it should help us relate to them as an adult, or the teens relate better to their the adults in their lives.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

You know my wish. Sorry, go ahead, Tim. No, no. What do you wish? I want to hear. My wish. So I was asked the question a few weeks ago and it just came to me. How do you avoid burnout? And look at parenting, like single parents. Oh my goodness, or are both parents who are working a ton. And I just I was just asked this too from a teaching um when I was doing a teacher's workshop. And I'm not saying that you can ignore everything around you, but I wonder if we could shift our focus from all the doing to the being. Just be. So it doesn't take away everything. I'm not saying that. But for example, for teachers, there is a long list of everything we got to do and assessment and evaluation and report cards and make sure that they have this and that and this and that and all these things on our plate. And it's a lot, it's a lot. And we still have to do them. But if I could just be and sit with the kids and connect with them and have that reciprocated joy in my classroom, I think it takes the level of stuff. It's still busy. Busy and stress are two different things. Burnout and just working a lot are not the same thing. So, you know, you can still be busy, but just to be. And right.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

And I think, you know, I've read a lot, and you probably know a lot more about this than me, about transcendental meditation, where they're trying to incorporate that into schools because it's really they're showing statistically that it helps students do better on their test and stuff. If they just take a moment to just silence everything in their minds, quiet. Just and it doesn't have to be a long time, you know. That's what we talk about, the pause. It's it's literally seconds. And it's just giving the frontal cortex time to come back online so you can think. And there's so many exercises that we offer with with delay the binge that help with that, but it's small, small steps. And you have to give yourself grace because it doesn't happen overnight. It took us a long time to create that situation.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Yeah, and to be kind to ourselves. That's the other thing I'd wish for is that we could be kind, because listen, we all make mistakes. And I'm the very first to say we need to take responsibility as the adults. Parenting is not for the faint of heart, and it's not a pastime and it's not an afterthought. We are up. We are up. We've got little kids who need us to step up to the plate, but can we have grace within that responsibility and knowing that we all make mistakes and it is okay and we don't have to wallow and be crippled by it. And our kids just want us to be there, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Well, and parents think their failure, uh failure is a lot, especially when kids the kids' behavior is not what they think it should be, then they feel like, what did I do wrong as a parent? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

So much, right, to deal with. Like you said, if you just step back and and this, and if you keep it simple, I love how you you focus on that. The simplicity of it, you need to remember that this is not, this is let's keep it simple, you know. And if you just I have to share with you something I'm very proud of. My son, when he was in third grade, he's 36 now. I was in third grade. His his teacher called me in for a meeting, and I thought, oh no, what did he do? And she says, I just want you to know, I I asked the class the other day how we learn. Kyle raised my son, raised his hand and said, By messing up.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Well, that's so great. Such a good oh wow. That's awesome. Well, because so here's what I'm interpreting from that though. He had the freedom to make mistakes at home. To say that. That's power. So let's look, can we just pause on that and think about that?

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

We need to let our kids know it's okay to make mistakes. And what happens when we make mistakes is we are allowing for teaching and correction to occur so that the brain can strengthen those neural pathways. And it's like, repeat, try again, reset,

Get On Their Turf: Practical Connection

SPEAKER_01 28:20

repeat, you know, because we we, it's it's emotional regulation. It's it's learning how you can navigate life. And we want, I don't think kids have the feel the freedom to make a mistake, and in the classrooms too. Right. And I I actually think we should be welcoming it as learning opportunities. I'm not saying we don't do consequences. I'm the very first person to be into the word discipline and consequences with with connection. Absolutely. But the that your son said that speaks so much about what he had at home that he was not fearful of messing up, which we all do.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Yes, it is human. It is just life, and that's how we learn. And so I I have taught both of my kids that drilled it into their head with the plus one theory, which we talked about a little bit before. But teens feel unsafe a lot. And so I guess my primary focus when I was raising my little ones was just to help them feel safe in making mistakes and learning and just knowing that mommy loves you no matter how many times you make a mistake. And that builds worth.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Self-worth it just gets to flourish in that, right? It really is. You're allowed to do that.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

And and I know, I mean, I they're amazing adults, but they they still made a lot of wrong choices. But like he reminded me, they were his to make. So I love that.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

So I did I grew I did not feel safe growing up, but I will I wanted to point this out with you because I'm so in awe of your work. And I just want you to know how important it is. And thank you. You probably know this, but when I was growing up, I grew up in an abusive, dysfunctional situation, and we used to go and just steal food from convenience stores down the road because we didn't have an adult around for weeks at a time. And so we would go looking for food. You get clever about finding ways to find food. Anyway, so this this one guy, Mac Superstop Mac, and we were stealing hot dogs from him for weeks. It was summer. And one day he says, Hey, you two, my sister and I, he says, Stop. And we thought, oh no, we're going to jail. And we turn around, he's holding a bottle of mustard, and he says, Y'all been taking my hot dogs for weeks. Don't you want some mustard? Well, and yes, sir. He goes, Don't steal from me. If you need food, you just ask me and I'll help you. Wow. And so we walked out, but you see, this is the sad thing. This is where I was not safe. I didn't even know what to call what he did. I never experienced kindness. And so, but to this day, it continues it took him seconds to make an impact on me for the rest of my life. Wow, that's a story. Wow. So when we see young people, you know, you have to let them know that you see them and that you hear them and that they matter. That impacted me that I would not be sitting here with you discussing this right now if he had not done that. Wow. That's how much of an impact we can have on our young people.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Yeah, we can and can I just say, Pam, you're telling your story, and I'm I'm always testing what you know the the kids said that they needed. And everything in that story is what the teenager said that they needed for wellness. He was supportive. He was supporting you. Yes. He was understanding. He knew that there was a reason you were stealing, and he was not judgmental within it, and he cared for you. Like that is the umbrella support, understanding, and care. And what that looks like comes out, I think, in every single story like that.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Exactly. And I just that's why what you do is so critical because we need to remind people how much it matters that we give them, give teens this. We give them those three things. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Yep. And I will I will tell you, I work with those kids that look scary on the street. Right? Like I'm now in alternate education. So the kids

Quiet Depletion And The Pause

SPEAKER_01 32:30

that I now have are those ones that people would cross the street for. And you know what? They are no different than anybody else, and no different from the high-performing, you know, neuroscience graduate. They just want to be appreciated and affirmed and cared for and understood and have those connections. I have great conversations with these kids. Great conversations. And there's just no difference. They just, but but but then here's the difference is that you you can become really good at putting on a protective layer. So it, like I said about that whole success thing, it it's it's a great protection to act like you don't care in so many ways. So there's the facade that comes out and what we actually might see physically that might make people cross the street.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Exactly. Yeah, and yeah, the I don't care thing is just a facade. It is. Well, it is that um brings me to this. I want to revisit this again because the connection coming before correction. I love that. And so why can't a teen hear us if they don't feel safe first? I know we've touched on that here and there, but you know, they're not going to hear us if they don't feel safe. Correct. No, but right, but I want to make a caveat there.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Okay. This just hit me that I need to be making this distinction. When I say connection before correction, I don't mean that's the only time that you connect. Your kids done something, let's connect. You are setting the stage and building the foundation for when we know that they will make mistakes. And you are doing that on a daily basis so that when you do need to do correction, it's not going to be a last minute thing. And it's not too late. There are a lot of parents that feel that it's it's done, and it's not. But the when I say connection first, I I really need to make sure I I drill this in that that's actually a way of being with our children. Yes. And it is foundational and it is progressive connection.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

And they are gonna make a mistake. We are gonna have to cut it out. Right, and that makes a lot of sense. It does because when a a young person feels uh disconnected, they're already scanning, right? And I know this personally because that's what I used to scan the room to find out who's dangerous, who's the worst threat, and who's sure. And so when we come in with advice or lectures, it it just doesn't land, right? And so what builds trust, what builds trust in those moments? How do you get through that?

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Well, I'll okay, one so here's a big one. I use this all the time, teaching, especially. Here's what I said. I'd look at a kid and I'm not, I try not to look angry. Like the looks on our faces really do matter. And I had this one kid, he got in a fight with somebody, and we're about to go to this assembly, and I'm like, talk to me, Jack. That's all I said. Just talk to me. I'm not mad, I'm not joyful, I'm just like, talk to me. But we had a relationship where I said that that was not threatening, and tears welled up in his eye. He didn't, that's all that I had to say is talk to me, meaning, what's going on? What's happening? And it's powerful. I and I really though like I can't have a judgmental tone or look on my face or mo anything that would come across of when we build our connection first, then that's gonna mitigate any misperception. But it's that you, I

Being Over Doing To Prevent Burnout

SPEAKER_01 36:08

I want to hear from you first. Another thing I say is ask three questions. Maybe you don't know what the three are yet, but find three questions before you get into anything. I think that's a powerful step and a tool of hey, like what's up? First question. Or maybe, hey, do you want to talk to me? Or hey, you know, how are you feeling? And then okay, I'm just curious to know like what what what led you to that? Whatever way we can frame that, it's not judgmental. And what did you want to get out of it? Or what did you think would be good in it? Or how are you feeling now? So it's really being careful of not acting judgmental within it, but just coming up to what's actually happening first. There's your connection. Because what's happening too is my own head's coming out of my butt. Let's let them talk. And I'm the adult in the room and I'm gonna get information that I can, and then we proceed. Because so often, how often do we get people are angry, we overreact. Sometimes maybe the adult does need a timeout to cool down first because we you never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever engage with a child or teenager when you're not regulated.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

You just don't that's how you break trust. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Oh, that's how things go bad, right? That's where you get conflict and yelling and things that are said that you can never take back. And same thing teaching. Like, I just I had I learned it. It's learned. I do think it's learned. But it's it's just finding out first and moving from there. And you might not know what your questions are gonna be, or you might know not what you might not know what to do. That's fine. You're just first gather some information in a non-judgmental way and then take it from there.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

And being that's being present. It is right, because I I know I I've learned that if you just get on their eye level, yeah, and you're like, what's going on? What's really going on?

unknown 38:02

Tell me.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

That was in my research too. Uh a student mentioned like I was connected with his teacher because he sat at my level, my eye level. So even the physicality of hovering versus I'm gonna sit on the floor with you, we're gonna sit on the couch together. There's something powerful that you and I are at the same eye level, that I'm seeing you. I see you.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

Yes. Yes. And then then you let them talk. Yeah. And that listening skill that we were talking about. I mean, there is sub one question that shows you're listening to, I I have found success with in my career, is that um, can you tell me more? Yes, good one. Yes. And man, they are just then they're like, oh, she's she's really paying attention. She's listening to me. Absolutely. Yeah. For sure. I mean, if anybody wanted to take anything away, just ask them to tell you more. And then they will.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

They will. If they think you're not judging.

unknown 39:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

Because as soon as they spot judgment, even if they're not right on it, they're done. And they said this to me. I had this all over in the research was over and over and over again. As soon as they felt an iota of judgment, they just stopped talking.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Well, and too, you know, a lot of times maybe adults think,

Grace, Repair, And Firm Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 39:20

you know, if they feel judged, maybe they feel like they think they're just not getting their way, but it's not. It's it's just being acknowledged and not judged, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Totally. And and you can still do consequences. I'm not saying you give a little hug and go away. Right. Like I really feel that kids do need boundaries. They need to know the rules. My experience was I was a tough nut. Like, I have high expectations. And I I ran a very tight chip, both in my home and with my students. And I found that they thrived on it because you know what? It showed that I cared more and they got it. And even on the psych unit, I was tough about we had a, you know, we had a uh dress policy. I mean, whether or not I liked it or not, we had a policy. I've got to stick with it. I did not allow anybody on like any sort of social media, and I had a zero tolerance rule. So they, they could, they lost the laptop the whole time they were with me. They could work on the big massive computer. And it it was a it was smooth. It was good because they understood I actually, this is for your benefit because you need to learn this as an adult. And I want you to be successful as an adult. So if I sweep this under the rug, you're not learning what I know that you need for emotional regulation as an adult. So I have consistently found kids appreciate it. They like knowing the limit and they know that you care. You don't have to be mean about it. You don't have to be mean about it at all. You build that relationship.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

It's just structure, you know. And that's what I craved growing up, you know, without adults around. I my friends at school would get grounded and stuff and they would just be so angry about it. And in my mind, I was thinking, I wish I would get grounded. I just wanted my parents to care enough to ground me. Yes. I craved it.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

I want to touch something deeper for uh just a brief moment. So when adults aren't present emotionally, physically, a young person doesn't stop needing connection. So what they do is they adapt, right? They scan the rooms like we talked about, they manage their energy and they either get loud or they disappear. And what looks like bad behavior is often survival behavior. Or what looks like defiance, you know, might actually be fear. So or laziness, that's a big one for teens. You know, adults think they're lazy, or you know laziness is just hopelessness. Like you said, there's no hope. So why try, you know, why do it? What looks like attitude might be anxiety. So when we ask what's wrong with this kid, maybe the better question is what happened to this kid? So how often is behavior really a connection problem? Always, every time.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

I can't think of a time it's not a connection problem. I actually, that's a great question. I can't consider a time. And hey though, it might be connection with your own self. That's right. Yes. Here's one I feel stupid. I feel stupid in school. And it is protective then to act like you don't care and be that person that's always in trouble. Well, there's a lack of connection with your own self, maybe your own abilities, maybe with your self-worth, maybe with your self-efficacy, like believing you can do it. So I actually am wondering if that's always it in one way or another, connection. And here's the thing: we are all wired for connection. So if you don't get connection in one place, say with mom and dad, you're gonna sure find it somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

That's I guess that's what I was at the point I was trying to make. Yeah, you're gonna find it somewhere. So we have here in Vancouver, it's called the downtown y side, and it's a very high percentage of homelessness. We have a toxic drug crisis, worst in Canada, and it's all on the downtony side. And I keep watching our experts quote unquote fix the problem, and they're dealing with housing and feeding programs, etc. And I've not heard anybody talk about the trauma, which is a very, very high trauma score for people who are homeless. It's been researched in other parts of our country. And I feel that they're just throwing darts at peripheral elements. And I, you know, I had students that were from this area from the downtown A side, and they said to me, It's my people. We get each other. We've all been through crap, and we understand. So I know kids that are drawn there. And it's like it's an unsafe area. It's, I mean, you you know, the Skid Rose. And yet they're drawn because we are wired for connection, Pam. So if they didn't get it from mom and dad, they have found their people. So in all these areas of cities that are like this

Eye Level, Three Questions, Then Consequences

SPEAKER_01 44:20

with high rates of homelessness, high substance use, high mental health disorders, I think our number one issue there is connection. And we're not talking about it in trying to mitigate the problem. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

I mean we're throwing money at it. They throw money or food and they're not understanding. They need to get to the core of why. It's just like with bariatric surgeries, you know, they get the tool, but they still regain the weight. Right. They're they didn't address the mind why they're there in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Yeah. I think that the opposite of substance use is connection. And I talked to this wonderful psychologist who said, I think the opposite of heroin is connection. Because if you think about it, why are you doing drugs? Well, high, high anxiety. Well, right there, there's a disconnection with my own self, right? Drugs take it all away. Or my own trauma and I am not feeling loved and the drugs take it all away. The list goes on and on and on.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

Just a num out, just to numb it out. That's that quiet. That's disconnection. So for adults, I love how you you do, you know, reference that quote. And there are adults, if there are adults listening right now who didn't grow up feeling seen and they still carry, you know, that sense of unworthiness, it keeps creeping back up. How does your research speak to them?

SPEAKER_01 45:47

So it first of all, I want to empathize with the complexity of that.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

I I did a I did a research. I sorry, I did a few podcasts with this woman who wrote a book. It's called North of Normal. Her name's See a Sunrise Person, and she was raised, she'll say that's crazy. She's written two books, became a movie. And she um she felt that she just needed the people in her life and didn't have them. And she's the very first person to say, I'm not ever gonna be fully healed. So I didn't, I asked her about healing, but it's a journey. So I don't think there's an end point. I think it's important to acknowledge there's not an end point to healing from what has been done to you or what has not been done to you. Like you never had a curve or you never got grounded or you know, in trouble. And she has consistently worked throughout her life with lots of therapy and relationships, and she's in a good marriage and all of this, but she recognizes this is growth. I think the number one healing for anybody is relationships and healthy relationships. Healthy. And you need to know how worthy you are to be treated well, that you are treated well.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

It doesn't take a lot of time to be one of those people in someone else's life, you know. Like I mentioned earlier, just a handful of adults saw me growing up and treated me with kindness, and it didn't fix everything, and I still had to live in my same environment. Yeah. But they saw me, right? And I'm not a teen anymore. Of course. Sure. But I can still remember, I can see it so clearly the look on their face, and the and I they were genuinely concerned about me.

unknown 47:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

And I remember that in detail.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Yeah. And I I I also, like I said earlier, like those micro moments, like those Hamlets. I I I listen, I wasn't raised with trauma. I have a trauma score of a big fat zero. Uh, so I say this softly because I I don't know what it's like. But what I have observed and researched and spoken to people about is it is a lifelong quest and then to actively choose good people into your life and to actively choose to know that you deserve to be treated well. And if you're not being treated well, you go back to the drawing board and that you can switch that script on your upbringing if you have your own children and be that mom. Like my friend Sia, you know, I said to her, How do you know that when you would be totally healed? And she said, When I put myself first before my kids, I know I will have fully healed

Survival Behavior vs. Defiance

SPEAKER_01 48:40

because she is so overcompensating from her own neglect from mom that she's at everything her kids do. So her kids, she she's raising them well, but she's she recognizes this is because of her upbringing, but there's healing within that for her too, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:57

Yeah, and it's a lot of work because you have tendencies from growing up like that. And so you have to, I always tell people I have to think three times, okay? Every time I do something. For sure. I can imagine a tendency from me growing up. I have to think, oh, that's wrong. And then what's the correct thing to do? And then when if you have faith and you become a Christian, that's what would Jesus do? So I have to think three times before I even act or speak to someone.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

But you know, but here's the thing, Pam. You know that you need to. There's your starting point. You've recognized that you have to do that and you're living within that. And that's where it all starts. You're you're not being impulsive. You're not, you know, ignoring what you need to be doing for your own healing and growth.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

Do you think kindness plays a big part in um uh dealing with young people's nervous systems over time? I mean Yeah. So we didn't get back, we didn't fully get into the nervous system question, did we?

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Absolutely. Here's what it is is it brings safety. So let's have uh do you work about polyvagal theory? Are you have you talked about polyvagal? It's the vagus nerve. It's basically befriending your nervous system. We haven't Stephen Porges on this show, but so it's so if for people that have had trauma, I have been told that the polyvagal theory, it's Stephen or Steve Porges and Deb Dana have pioneered it earlier on. It's understanding your nervous system and befriending your nervous system. So, you know, people with trauma, there's higher cortisol levels, and you uh wake up in an elevated state, and the list goes on on of the neurology. And yes, just the kindness to the nervous system. That's why you brought up meditation, that's mindfulness. And we know neurologically it actually does calm the brain. And I think kindness, I actually think kindness brings joy, which is so much more powerful than happiness. And when you have that, we we do we have more regulated systems because we're feeling safer. And with trauma, it is feeling completely unsafe. So, on the contrary, to have safe spaces, kindness is a huge part of that because you're not being yelled at. You know that somebody's not gonna yell at you. You know that they are supportive, understanding, and caring because they are kind, because that encompasses all of that. So absolutely, I think that the and then those micromoments of it, right? That of this constantly the this hamlet around people is my dream of kindness throughout life.

SPEAKER_00 51:35

Yes. And and I think that's why that's why it matters because kindness isn't weakness, it's like a superpower. It's it's not permissiveness, it's it's lowering, and it's not lowering your standards, it's like uh leadership.

SPEAKER_01 51:49

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 51:51

And it has a ripple effect.

SPEAKER_01 51:53

Look at your guy with the hot dogs. What a story, hey. That was kindness. I love telling you. That is such a great story, and the impact of that. I'm I'm guessing too, your nervous system with him would have just kind of because you didn't have to go on.

Connection And The Homelessness Lens

SPEAKER_00 52:08

The whole way I was walking with my bag because he gave us a bag for the mustard and the hot dogs. And my sister and I were just not even talking. We were like, what just happened and why? Yeah. Oh man, Suzanne, thank you for being one of those steady adults in this world. You're just like Mac.

SPEAKER_01 52:27

Thank you for your time. I just I love, you know what I love what you're doing, especially is hitting the core of humanity.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

And if we just focus on that, yeah, Suzanne, even like you mentioned the politics and all the how people love to hate right now and just I don't know. It's it's really sad right now. And and I I hate to see what it's doing to the young, to our young people with anxiety, depression, suicide, I know, drugs, all of that for them to cope. Yeah. So can you share um where our listeners can find you and continue learning from you?

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Sure. First is my website. I actually have a free guide right now about connecting with your kids. It's drsuzannsimpson.com on the main page dot com. And there's a newsletter to sign up for there too. I'm also on Instagram at dr Suzanne Simpson, as well as LinkedIn and YouTube channel is Dr. Suzanne Simpson. Just the same thing everywhere, so it's easy to find.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

Truly thank you, Suzanne. And and for everyone listening, all of her links are going to be in the show notes, so don't worry about writing it down. And if this conversation resonated with you, whether you're raising a teen or working with teens, or still healing from your own story, kindness matters more than you realize. Presence matters more than perfection, and the small moments you create today may still be shaping someone decades from now. I'm living evidence of that. And yes, I'll see you next week.