The Hidden Impact Of Menopause On Relationships

Episode Summary

This episode features Dr. Chantal from Life Options discussing the impact of perimenopause and menopause on relationships, mental health, and self-identity. She shares insights from her clinical experience, personal journey, and practical advice for women navigating this transformative phase.

Key Topics

- Effects of hormonal changes on relationships
- Emotional and mental health during menopause
- Communication and intimacy in midlife
- Self-acceptance and identity shifts
- Support strategies for women and partners

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Menopause and Relationships
06:05 Understanding the Impact of Menopause on Self-Identity
12:23 Navigating Emotional Distance in Relationships
19:19 Libido Changes and Relationship Dynamics
26:18 Misunderstandings in Relationships During Menopause
30:01 Balancing Career, Family, and Personal Changes
32:25 Intentional Self-Care During Menopause
35:17 Identity Shifts and Relationship Dynamics
39:05 Navigating Emotional Support in Relationships
44:55 Communicating Intimacy and Connection
49:59 Physical Discomfort and Relationship Tension
52:17 Advocating for Yourself in Menopause
56:07 Understanding Trauma's Impact on Menopause
58:03 Menopause as a Catalyst for Stronger Relationships
01:00:52 Self-Compassion and Realistic Expectations

Disclaimer

Breast Intentions is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The content shared on this podcast is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Any views or opinions expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of any affiliated organizations. Always consult with a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice or concerns.

Resources & Mentions:

• Find Dr Chantal Basson on Instagram (@drchantalbasson) 

• Follow us on Instagram and Facebook (@breastintentionspodcast ) 

Connect With Us: Have a topic or guest suggestion? Email us at breastintentionspodcast@gmail.com 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Women going through the menopause now are the product generally of the baby boomers, and we are not we have not been taught to look after ourselves, we've been taught to look after others first, and us, we're very secondary, thirdly. By the time you have children, we're like bottom of the pile. Well, that has got to change, and the menopause often brings about a time when we really do look to change that. We have got to be incredibly intentional. If we're gonna come through the menopause in the way that we should, like feeling stronger for having gone through it, then we have got to be intentional about thinking about ourselves, having awareness about ourselves, and looking after ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Welcome to Bretions, the podcast where we take off the bra of expectations and dive into honest, empowering conversations. We're your hosts, Snedine and Cynthia, two Canadian girls who swapped snow boots for flip-flops in the Cayman Islands. This is your space to feel seen, supported, and a little less alone. So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of champagne and get ready for your weekly handful of truth, wellness, and empowerment. Welcome back to Breast Intentions. On today's show, we're joined by Dr. Chantel Basson, a psychologist based here on the island, to explore how menopause can impact relationships in powerful and often unexpected ways. We'll unpack the emotional shifts, communication challenges, and the practical strategies that can help couples move through this stage with more understanding and connection.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

And on today's episode, we have Dr. Chantel. Welcome to the show. Thank you. And Chantel is here from Life Options, which is down here on the island. And you're a psychologist, general psychologist?

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah, I'm a clinical psychologist, and my specialism is famlays.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Okay.

unknown 1:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

And our episode today, which is something that we haven't done yet, which is on um perimenopause and menopause and the effect that it has on relationships. So not necessarily just relationships like partners and partners, um, but it can also be relationships with your children, relationships with people at work, um, all different areas. So we're really excited to have you on here. Um, for any of our listeners that are tuning in, um, if you could just tell us a little bit more about how you ended up down here on the island, how you got started, uh, why you also have maybe a focus on the menopause and the perimenopause.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Um, so I'm a clinical psychologist and I've been doing this a while now. So I've been qualified for 20 years this year, which is just like a bit intense. Um, and I started practicing in the UK in the NHS, working um in kind of disabilities that cutter children and families, and progressed into senior leadership. In COVID, it all kind of got a bit too much. I had young children myself, and um myself and my husband decides to make a change. So we moved over here with our young girls. Um, they were two and six, they're now seven and eleven. Um, and um I kind of went through a bit of a journey working in private practice and then HSA, and now I'm with um Shari Smith at Life Options. Um, and I focus mainly on families, but I've become way more interested recently in the menopause and been doing more work and talking a bit more because actually, this is my journey too. You know, I'm in my late 40s, I went um into the perimetopause relatively earlier a couple of years ago, and it was when I'd kind of not long moved to Ireland, and I kind of felt like I was losing my mind. And it made me just so interested in in how we start to understand that time in our lives and and the impact on relationships, because of course then I've had to go through kind of all of that with my husband.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

Right. And isn't it interesting too when you start to evolve in the work that you do and it starts to move into what is kind of happening with you personally? And this is a question I don't have on here, but um, with like the perimenopause and the menopause side of things and you experiencing that, do you now kind of look back a little bit to the people that you used to work with or that you had treated, where you're like, if only we had this more present and we talked about this a lot more, that those kinds of conversations could have also come up from years ago?

SPEAKER_01 4:37

For sure. I remember being in my early 20s and actually working as an assistant office manager um in Nottingham in England, and my boss, um, who was in her late 40s, early 50s, kind of tried to have a conversation with me one day saying she was feeling awful, it was the menopause. I was like in my early 20s, and I was like, uh oh, um okay, that that sounds really bad. I'm just gonna go sort out somebody, and I just felt really awkward and I had no idea what to do. And now I look back at that and I think like nobody was talking about, and she was alone, yeah, yeah, you know, and she tried to reach out to this like young 20-year-old kid, and right, of course, what she got back was like zero, like absolute zero from me at the time, and what we need is like conversations, it's made me realize what we need is conversations, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Yeah, well, we're glad you're here.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Thanks, me too.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

Appreciate you having me on. So, my very first question is um many women say they suddenly just don't feel like themselves during perimenopause and menopause. How does this hormonal transition begin to affect relationships at home? It's a probably a very loaded question.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

I mean, it's huge. So when we go into the menopause, well, the poemopause and then the menopause, we start to feel really differently. So, like, we can become deprived of sleep, our temperature is changing, our skin is changing, our body is changing. Um, and like some of the things that we experience, they're also kind of forms of torture that are deliberately used, um, make people feel confused, mess with their identity. And then we're expected to what, just continue in our relationships in exactly the same way. That's just never going to happen because those things are gonna mess with our sense of self and our trust in ourselves and our sense of belonging and connection with ourselves. And if we want kind of good relationships with people, we have got to have good relationships with ourselves first, and so when that is kind of messed with and taken away from us, um, we have to work to revise that, and of course, then we're working to revise our relationships, and everyone it needs to be educated and on board with that as well, right? Oh, massively, and of course they're not, because like in my generation, when we were talking about things like menopause, I mean the word vaginas wasn't even used um it when I was a child. That was a kind of a taboo word. Okay, it was like I like talking about sex, I didn't have proper sex education from my parents. It was like, oh don't like this, yeah. Talk about it. Yeah, and so it was covered in shame. And we're kind of just full of shame. And well, that's not okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

Exactly. Yeah. Why do you think that menopause can create such an emotional distance between couples, even in previous healthy relationships? So just kind of going off of like the home side of things, right? And how that's affecting that that husband and wife or or the relationships.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

So I think a lot of it does start with the excuse me, the change that occurs within us, um, where we start to lose our sense of self and we start to feel like we're not the person we were, both in terms of feeling and when we look at ourselves in the mirror. You know, I've gone from having this chest nutty, lovely brown hair, to like I've ended up just going natural, I'd try to dye it for years, and eventually I just like just stop it, just start to accept who you are, just regain your belonging. So my hair is part of me regaining my belonging. Um, and that was that has been a really hard journey.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

So when we're losing our sense of self and we don't know like where we are, we're irritable, we're tired, we're hot, we're cold, we've got maybe restless legs and dry eyes and feel uncomfortable. And then we're trying to connect with our partner, and our partner's kind of looking at us like, What where did you go? Like, where is the woman I have known for all these years? And like that woman has changed over time. If we've had children, oh my goodness, we change when we have children and we have different priorities, like we go through loads of sleep deprivation, kind of similar things. And then we're changing again, and our partners trying to understand us and keep up with us. Maybe they're not trying to understand us, maybe they're just kind of trying to keep up with themselves, and they're a bit like, What is going on here? Well, then we're like, Oh, as women, especially as women, we kind of feel a bit like, Well, this is the me thing, it this is my fault. I need to try and make this better, I need to be a better wife. Um, like everybody else is rocking it at this time of life. Why aren't I? So then we have shame, and then what shame does, shame then creates hiding behavior.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

I was just gonna say that.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Yeah, yes, right, yes. Why children lie, okay, it's why adults lie, it's a hiding behavior because we feel shame, and so that makes us um avoid talking about this stuff because it's my fault, I have shame, I don't want to talk about it. If it's touched on, it turns to blame and anger very quickly because it's much easier to feel blame, blame to somebody else and anger about that rather than feeling our own sense of failure.

SPEAKER_03 10:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

And so what that does is that creates more disconnection, and then that's a cycle. The disconnection and the anger creates more shame, which creates avoidance, which creates more disconnection. So you're kind of going around an ambitious cycle, which is why it impacts our relationship so deeply.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

Right. Well, and kind of going off of that, I was gonna say there's probably this this side, and and I probably have even noticed it in myself where it's like you're kind of at the beginning of like forgetting things and um not feeling the greatest. So yeah, like it maybe a bit of denial. So then you try to like play it off as different things, um, and try to not really bother everyone else in the household and make it look like you're struggling and you know, because you're also trying to figure out what the hell's going on, too, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Right?

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

We're trying so hard to figure it out, and then we're masking, we're doing that, everything's fine, let's just carry on as normal. Well, you're trying to convince yourself too, right? Yeah, and life does not stop, it doesn't allow us a pause, right? You know, to be able to just meander through the menopause. Oh no, like we're often at full throttle with like kids. A lot of people have adolescent children going through the menopause. Well, that is a hot mess, you know, because then you've got hormone clashes versus hormone clashes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Volcane, puberty and menopause at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Wow. Yeah, that is a whole thing. And so we have to really think very intentionally then about what the role of shame is doing, our masking, and just try to kind of oh, step away from it. The reason why we don't step away from that is because in order to step away from it, we have to dip into our pit of shame. And this is where I'm incredibly grateful to my husband, who also happens to be a psychologist. Oh, I see. Yes, okay. So I was kind of winning this, but even with all of then that skill set in our house, it has still been incredibly difficult. Last weekend I just found myself sobbing to him. Um, I've I'd kind of been feeling some stuff, I was really struggling that week. Everything had been coming at me, kind of work, home, school, and then I just kind of felt like I was absolutely failing. So I'm there like streaming and talking to him, and I was like, I just feel like I'm absolutely failing you, and you know, he's so great, and he kind of sits there and goes, That's just awful, and you are absolutely not failing, and let's have a talk about this. But if you don't have that, then you are very, very much alone. Yeah, yeah, I was just gonna say that.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

I can imagine there like that's one way that a partner could deal with it, but I can imagine several other different scenarios of how a partner might react or what they might say, and even might lead might lead the the woman to not share and you know cry on her own somewhere and not like let out what's actually happening or not, communicate that because of you know how their partner might react.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Absolutely, and even when you've got a great partner and you've got all the knowledge, it still takes all of my effort to talk about this to my husband. I will avoid it for a good while until I'm just like mm-mm, I can't do that. I need to talk to him, and he's not gonna bring it up to me, you know. He's gonna be like tittooing around taking shots.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Like, I mean it's kind of my responsibility to do that. Some guys actually, and some some guys I've talked to, and I've talked to a lot of men about this, which is amazing, will actually kind of go and be very proactive in terms of talking about this.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

But I think it kind of depends on your context. Yeah, I was gonna say we can't really say what a partner should do because it depends on their own relationship, I suppose. Yeah, and the history of talking about hard things, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Like how was that dealt within your family of origin?

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Yeah, because we're all a product of our environment. There we go. Yeah, last week must have just been a hard week for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Everybody was feeling the same. It was a full moon.

SPEAKER_03 15:21

Oh, was it?

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Yes, absolutely. And although I we like to think that's a bit of a myth, actually, as human beings, we're massively impacted by the moon. Yes. Um, and so I I spoke everybody I spoke to this week was having a tough week.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Well, and even kind of going along that line of like the Perry Manifest, um, we got home um and it picked up my kid from school, drove into the driveway, parked the car, got in the house, and then about an hour and a half later, I was like, Oh shoot, I need to go and get my my laptop. So went outside to come in to hear it to grab my laptop. And I walk outside and I'm like, there's a car running. I left my car running. No way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, if you didn't need your computer, yeah, you it just went over all night long. And then, you know, we're sitting here and I've forgot my um charger for my laptop, like, and just all of a sudden everything just starts compounding, and you do kind of go along the lines of just like you know, so keep that to I'll just keep that to myself for now. Kind of make a little bit of a joke about it, but deep down inside, you're like, Oh my goodness, yes, holy cow.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

I was talking to a friend of mine who's kind of the same age as me, going through the same thing, and I said to her, and this has been a real deep fear of mine for the last couple of years, I said, sometimes I really worry that I'm actually developing early onset dementia. Yes. And as a psychologist, of course, I know all the signs of that, and it's definitely something I talk to my husband about because he knows more about this than I do. And um, I think that's one of the really hard things when when you change, and we can we can kind of all kind of say to each other, well, this is the menopause. Actually, when it's you and your internal world, one of our biggest fears is going to be actually it's not, and it's something much bigger. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Yeah. I I have a client who thought she had a brain tumor for 10 years. And it's terrifying. She wasn't, she wasn't. She is terrifying. Um, just like I just always thought she was dying.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Yeah. That's right. Because actually the symptoms are so strong for some people, not for everyone, but for some people. I was playing a board game with my husband last night, it's one of the things that we do, and it's a board game that I bought him probably 15 years ago, and I've played it many times. I couldn't remember the rules. And I said, It must feel like you're working in an old people's home right now because I just cannot remember how to do this. But we were giggling about it, and I think that's what we have to do. If we can use humour and playfulness, playfulness reduces shame. Yeah, okay, I agree. And so when we can use it and we can kind of have a bit of a giggle about you leaving your car on, I have done exactly the same thing, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Okay, that's safe.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

They're all very normal things to do when you're going through the menopause and your cognitive capacity changes.

unknown 18:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

So but it can, like, yes, like you were saying, Nadine, it can compound, right? Like you do, like you leave the car on, and then you forget your charger, and then somebody cancels that you're supposed to do something important with, and then so it's like, and then you get emotional, and it yeah, yeah, it's it has a huge impact on how we're feeling.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Yeah, it does absolutely massive. So another impact that um, or another area that can be impacted is libido, um, and women feeling guilty because their libido has changed, which is obviously it can um change relationships. Yeah, but how much of that is hormonal versus emotional or relational?

SPEAKER_01 19:13

I kind of think it's probably like a mixture of all of those three. So when we think about the libido and changes in libido, it's one of those kind of things that we just want to do like this and not really talk about and pretend it doesn't exist. Okay. And so I was talking to a friend of mine about libido. I talked to a Caymanian friend, and I say, Well, what would you do? What do you think you and your friends would do about vaginal dryness? And they said, Well, we just wouldn't. We just put up with it and not do anything. And I spoke to a friend of mine from New Jersey, and she said, Well, it's like the Sahara down there, so you've got to go and get some help for it. Okay. When we think about libido, we often think about it in terms of like um our libido is directly connected with like how good a person we are, how a good a wife we are, how good a partner we are. And so we tie it up with like all the values of being like a woman, a good woman, if you like. Um, and actually, what we need to do is be able to separate that. Libido is not like kindness, it's not care, nurture, honesty, um, it's not loyalty. Libido is just our desire to have sexual relationships with somebody, and we can think about it in a biopsychosocial way. Okay, so we think about it biologically, psychologically, and then social. So, like biologically, then we think about the friction, okay, issue. And if we have vaginal dryness, that is going to be incredibly uncomfortable. Okay, and then we've got to think about like the psychological aspect, so sleep, sensory overload, like what's going on in our relationship at that time, and then we want to think about like and and the social aspect, which is much more that kind of shame, hide, freeze, avoidance, disconnect. So we need to think about all those three when we kind of think about libido. Um, but of course, when we've got those three issues going on, if we've got a biological aspect, the psychological aspect, and then the social aspect, then we've got an awful lot impacting our ability to and drive to have sex. And so, of course, it massively impacts our relationships, especially if we've got more of that avoidance. That was like definitely me. I was a real avoider, and my husband's kind of an avoider, too. He's very gentle. He that's kind of why I'm with him. He's so steady, stable, gentle, kind. And so he's not going to make me feel uncomfortable. He's just going to put up with it.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

And but then it's so important that we talk about it because when I talked about that with my husband, and I was like, look, I feel like I'm totally failing you as a wife, you know, and I'm really sorry. He's then like, look, it's okay. And I remember I was having a conversation with my daughter in front of him once, and she was saying, like, what happens if like your partner annoys you? I said, Well, of course your partner will annoy you. He said, Well, does daddy annoy you? I was like, Yeah, of course he annoys me sometimes. But I said, Look, my love for him like massively outweighs any kind of anything that the annoyance can do. And like my husband was like, Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for saying that. Gave me a big hug. And I was like, Is that something you don't know? Because if that's something you don't know, then I'm doing something wrong. And so it really made me think, What is this? Like my lower libido, me going through the mentors, me losing myself, trying to find myself, being grouchy, what's that doing to him? And what it's doing to him is it's making him think it's him. Right. It's like somehow I'm failing, I'm not good enough. And I was like, okay, I've really got to think about this because he is not failing. He's a great husband, he's a great father, he's a great man, you know, he's got loads and loads of amazing stuff in his life and going for him. And so that really made me want to be much more intentional about talking about it. And so each time we do, I kind of say to him, This is not because I don't love you, you know. And he's always like, I'm so glad you said that, you know, because it's kind of reassuring him that no, I feel exactly the same way about you that I always have, but like I am changing, and this is different, and I am trying to figure this out. Um, so by talking about it, it kind of reduces everybody's shame. We kind of think about our own shame and we hide. And what we're not doing when we're thinking about our own shame is the other person's shame. Okay, and if we're not thinking about that, depending on how our partner is, that can turn for them very quickly into blame and anger. You're getting this wrong, you need to do something about it. And of course, then for us, we're going to be defensive. Um, that into our shame, we're going to be blaming and angry.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

So, if we're in then that dynamic, that's hugely detrimental to relationships. And that's why it when we go through the perimenopause and the menopause and our relationships change, it's one of the reasons why actually marriages can fall apart.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

Yeah. Yeah, you're right. So, going along the lines of like the misunderstandings about what are also some of the other biggest misunderstandings that partners have about what women are experiencing during menopause?

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Well, it's so internal, it's like all about our own internal body and our internal world. And we kind of think because we're going through it, other people can sort of see it, or like we're a window. Yeah. Of course, we are not a window, we're a wall. Nobody can see it. That's right. And so, like, I have dry eyes. And oh, my husband last night was looking for some eye drops because he'd got an eyelash or something. And I was like, Yeah, we've got some eye drops. He was like, Are they for the cat? I'm like, No, it's not for the cat. So why have I got these eye drops? I was like, Oh, they're for me for the menopause. It's like you get dry eyes in the moment, yeah. You get like dry everything done. Dry everything. And Surtex cleans it, and so he's like, oh yeah, of course. So I've got like cream for vaginal dryness, eye drops for eye dryness, like hand cream, oh it's just everything. Everything, but like they no, nobody knows. We assume that people know, but it's hidden, and so the more we can talk about it and explain, the more actually that can that men can be proactive and figure this out too about what might be going on, the better it's going to be. But for women, because it creates shame, what I would say is like just start to find a way to talk about it if you can, not just because just sounds easy, it's not just, it's find a way to talk about it if you can, and find one thing like dry eyes is a really good thing to start with if you have dry eyes. Because there's no to-boo about dry eyes, right? Okay, and that can lead to a conversation about dry anything, right? Okay, true. Um, so so I think it's really an understanding about how hidden really this this journey is, and understanding that people we're not a window, right? Yeah, it's not written, right? No, no, and there's not that much out there that's easily accessible, so it's definitely getting better. Um, but there needs to be more, we need to talk about this more, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:19

And it is so individual, right? Like, even if there was information that's accessible that a partner could go look up and look at, like it doesn't mean that everything's going to apply to his partner or her partner. Um it's because everybody's so different, everybody goes through it differently. Yeah, it's their light needs might be different than your needs and yours, so yeah, it it the conversations are so important.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

That's right. I mean, some women massively struggle with restless legs at night, um, it really interrupts their sleep. That's not something I really know about, and lots of women get massive hot flushes. Um, I get night a night sweat at 3 a.m. That's it, kind of it for me. But like for some women, it's absolutely excruciating. So, understanding like what is your journey and like what is my journey and how is it different to your journey? What do we connect on? What what what's different, and then being able to communicate that.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

Right. So let's go along the lines of um still with relationships, but now kind of like relationships with our parents and with children, building our careers, um, and navigating body changes all at once. Like, how do women in midlife often deal with all of that?

SPEAKER_01 28:37

I mean, or it could be a bit of a hot mess, is what I would say. Because you're right, we're often like at the pinnacle of our careers, and the menopause is like really mean because it stops your brain from working in the way it did. Um, and so you you're at the top of your career, and um yet you're not able to function in the way you could like 10 years ago, and it's royally annoying. Yeah, um, but like when we kind of bring it all together, when I think about like what's really hard, I think it's just the absolute overload, you know. So if you've got kids, you're getting them out in the morning, first of all, to school, you're sometimes dealing with their dynamics of it in their friendship groups. Yeah, then you're going to work and you're problem-solving generally all day, you know. As women, especially still in my generation, I think it's changing now in younger generations, and maybe they won't have this, but like we're still kind of in charge of what's going on at home, in charge of like extracurriculars or what we're gonna have for dinner. Um, and so then like maybe we're like shopping and then cooking, and like like my husband cooks too, so that's brilliant. Um, but like you get home and the kids are home and you get the mummy soundtrack, the mummy, mummy, mommy, mummy, mummy, doggy, mommy. I mean, like who is not going to explode?

SPEAKER_02 30:09

Well, and then um, you know, on top of that, probably checking up on your parents, however, however often and worrying about them, worrying about them. So, when do you actually have that pocket of time in your day to unwind, to think about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 30:25

And we're not taught to do it. Yeah. Out of like everybody, like women going through the menopause now are the product generally of the baby boomers, and we are not, we have not been taught to look after ourselves, we've been taught to look after others first, and us, we're very secondary, thirdly. By the time you have children, we're like bottom of the pile. Well, that has got to change, and the menopause often brings about a time when we really do look to change that. We've got to be incredibly intentional. If we're gonna come through the menopause in the way that we should, like feeling stronger for having gone through it, then we have got to be intentional about thinking about ourselves, having awareness about ourselves, and looking after ourselves. Um, and that's definitely been a shift that I've been through. Like after this, I'm actually gonna go get some acupuncture. Um, and I used to kind of like just put it in my diary and not say anything, and then I was talking to my husband about it, it's like, yeah, I was like, this has been incredibly helpful. And he said, Well, then you've got to keep going, you know. I was like, Are you sure? Is that something like in our budget that's okay? And he's like, absolutely, because that if you're not okay, nobody's okay in this family, you know. So we've got to be intentional about it, yeah, and and and make the time. And we should not have to ask for permission for it, by the way. I'm totally fed up of asking for permission for stuff because somehow I feel like I'm less worth it. Ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

Well, and I think going back to that conversation that we were having before about um us being a product of our environment, um, a lot of the stuff that they do is like within nutrition, and um a lot of that comes from like being a product of our environment and like weight and stuff like that. And um with what you were saying is a lot of our moms um missed the boat, quote unquote, um, from like the HRT side.

SPEAKER_03 32:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

Um and now we are moving into this opportunity where we now get to use it, and we're trying to familiarize ourselves with it and educate ourselves around it, but there's still that conversation that, like, like you were saying, none of us really learnt to have because of the product of you know being a product of our environment, because we are never taught by our moms to be able to have that conversation and that open dialogue. So now, like you're saying, which I do hope is that the people that come after us have this opportunity to now be more self-aware and be more communicative and that kind of thing. So there is a hope.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

I think there's a massive hope. I mean, the young people I see coming into therapy now, they are so incredibly self-aware, especially the women. Like they are amazing. I work with some 26-year-olds who are just like so intentional, they really blow me away. So just wanting to do the work, yeah, wanting to do the work, really working hard, really thinking about themselves, putting themselves first, and that is massive, a massive shift and gives me enormous hope.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

Good for them.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Menopause often forces women to re-evaluate who they are. How can that identity shift impact marriages and long-term partnerships?

SPEAKER_01 33:50

I guess it depends on how much we have self-sacrificed in our relationships and our marriages. If we have kind of treated ourselves like a doormat, and then we kind of move into the menopause, we're like, hang on a minute. Is this okay? It this is not okay. Because actually, we start to kind of put up with so much less in the menopause. It just really makes us I wish I knew psychologically what that was all about. But I think it we start to develop some wisdom as we get a bit older, yeah, and a voice, and a voice, and so suddenly, like we are, you know, airing our voice, yeah, sticking up for ourselves, self-sacrificing less, realizing we need to self-sacrifice less. Well, if our partner doesn't come on that journey with us and isn't ready and flexible to do that, then we are in two very different places. And then if you kind of bring what we were talking about before about like how that how that kind of change within ourselves kind of creates disconnect and shame and avoidance and blame and anger, if then we go into that dynamic and we've got this like self-sacrificing moving into less self-sacrificing and more speaking up for ourselves, well, then we've got a massive split, and so kind of why wouldn't it? Also, I think for men, kind of looking at their wives or partners, sometimes that's just enormous for them. I don't mean kind of looking at them physically, I mean just looking at who they are and their identity. Well, maybe that's too much for them, you know. So I think we've got to go on this journey kind of together enough in order to come through it together.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

For sure. Yeah, it's a lot, it is, and even speaking about like just the um the hormone therapy side, we had um a doctor on just to talk about TRT for men. And we were talking about how um, you know, even being able to meet because guys are going through something, yes, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

And it's underrated and it's not spoken about at all. I'm not sure it's even understood properly.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

No, anthropause is amazing. And so if you know both people are kind of joining at that time just from a hormone perspective, and one person is using maybe a hormone therapy to like help them and they're doing that work, and the other person maybe isn't, you're also going to see a little bit of that split as well, just from a hormone therapy side.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

Absolutely, for sure. Um, yeah, I mean, my husband sleeps really badly, you know, so that's kind of how he's being impacted. And I keep saying to him, why don't you go see somebody? Well, as I'm like patched up to the hill, you know, like slap being on eye drops, you know. Maybe I'll take a melatonin. Yeah. Come on. You know, it's so different. I think we look after ourselves so differently. Yeah, yeah. But again, that is something I see differently in in the younger generation of men really taking care of themselves a lot better.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

Good, good. Um, and my last question uh why do some women suddenly lose tolerance for dynamics they accepted for years before menopause? Well, we talked about that a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

We did. Um, and we do, we kind of develop more of a wise mind. I think because we're going through something and it really makes us stop and think about ourselves, maybe for the first time, but meaning to do something for ourselves in order to help ourselves, um, it does start to then shift on the I think sometimes too, you just don't you don't even have a choice, like it just comes out.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Yeah, I agree. Yeah. You can really care less at that point.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

Yeah, well, that's just I that's what I often say is that you know, I'm now in the in the era where I just don't give up anymore. Right. And I it's because of my paramount paramount. Um it's very free.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

Yeah, it is. Yeah, I think maybe sometimes you have to bite your tongue for sure. Think about what it is that you are gonna say in the the interview.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

But I've definitely seen it, seen a shift where uh I'm not, I guess, putting up with things like I used to or don't care so much anymore about things I used to care about.

SPEAKER_03 38:30

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

In a good way. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, how can partners better support women emotionally instead of taking their symptoms so personally?

SPEAKER_01 38:40

I think educating yourself, you know, go out there and dig. I love it when kind of I do a talk and then like men come up and talk to me about how that's impacted them, what they've heard, that it's really validating for them. Um, I told a story when I did like one of my first bigger talks here. I was talking just about mental health, but I was talking about blame and shame. I went out one day and I asked my husband to do the dishwasher, and I came back, long story short, he hadn't done it. There were lots of reasons why, because I didn't know that and I was livid. Um, and my daughter was with me, I was like, What on earth is going on? Um, she wrote me, No, like don't do this again. Like, I was so livid. Um, and inside I was like so angry at him, but I just took a minute to think, why am I so angry? Okay, he's not done the dishwasher, that is like really irritating, okay. But it doesn't make him like a really worthless person. So I was I had to stop and think about like what is my despair? Why am I feeling this? What's my shame? And actually, when I stopped to think about it, my shame was I wish I could just get this right. I wish I was a better housewife, I wish I was kind of better at looking after my home and getting all the dishes in the dishwasher the night before. That was my shame. I'm not good at this, and I know that that is not my forte. And most of the time when I'm in my wise mind, I can think I know that's not my forte. I am not worried about that. You know, I'm a good psychologist, I'm not great at looking after my home. That's why I have someone come in to give me a hand a couple of times a week. But um, when I talked about that, and there's a guy who heard it, and he came to say, I've never felt so seen, when he talked about the dishwasher story, and then when it was kind of put online, he sent it to his wife, who then got in touch with me and said, I feel like you might just have saved our marriage. And and it's because actually we all need to be seen, but we all need to educate ourselves as well about these things. We can get carried away with our own anger when our husbands or wives don't do something. But actually, we need to really examine the depths of that anger. Is that proportionate to the situation? In my case with the dishwasher, it wasn't proportionate to the situation, but it takes a lot to stop and think about it because then we dip into shame, and of course, we avoid shame, so we don't want to go there. But if we can do that, if we can understand our shame and our pit of despair, then actually we're going to come out of that with reduced shame and a much better understanding of ourselves and a much better connection with Upperana.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

And is it fair to say that some men like say, you know, the the I guess the wife in this example comes home and is angry about the dishwasher and yelling, and then he can take it personally and he could get defensive and say, Well, I I know I shouldn't have like he would turn it around, like think that it was his fault and he's a bad partner, and not, I guess, think that take a step back also, yeah, and think like, oh, it could be that there's a lot going on. So there's a lot going on, and then not sort of take it personally and end up in a big fight.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

So we can take accountability for our bit, okay, which is I'm really sorry I didn't do the dishwasher. You asked me to do that, and that would have been brilliantly annoying because I said I was gonna do it. Yeah, you came home, it wasn't done. I I totally get it. It is why. But let's also talk about why this is making us feel like such big feelings together because there's something underneath that. Okay, and it's like understanding that underneath, but in a partnership that really helps.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Oh, for sure. Yeah, right. And on that topic, are there specific conversations that couples should or could be having to help with this, like say around intimacy or attraction and to changing needs?

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Absolutely, and and couples often aren't because of that avoidance, but we need to be really kind of talking about everything, you know, and the more we can do that, the better. So we need to be talking about physical and emotional intimacy because intimacy isn't just physical, you know. Last night was playing a board game, and agree. If our kids just once did a movie night, we're like, Do you want to come and play a board game? They're like, No, they're watching some cartoon movie, and we're playing a board game, and we're having a giggle, and that is emotional intimacy. We are connecting, okay. And within that, while we're playing, we're talking about lots of different things, um, not just like the board game, but like we've probably talked about emotional intimacy, we probably kind of talked about our day to day, the more we can communicate, the more we can. Create emotional intimacy, the better it's going to be. To do that, we have to just start talking about something, and finding your segue in is really the thing that you're trying to do if you're not talking about these things. That kind of segue in it needs to be a gentle one. Don't just go forth, don't go forth into everything. Okay, don't find the hardest thing, find the easiest thing, and and start to develop the language together.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

Is there a way that couples can communicate without creating the shame and the defensiveness?

SPEAKER_01 44:37

I mean, I'm I'm gonna say no. Actually, there isn't. Okay. Because when we start to talk about these things, we do feel the shame and we do feel defensive. But there's a way, and I call it scooping it up. There's a way we can scoop somebody's shame. So if I say something to you today, and I can just see on your face that you're feeling away about it, the thing I'm gonna say is, oh my goodness, Cynthia, I've just realized that what I said has made you feel something. Um, and I know that wasn't my intention, that doesn't matter. What did that just make you feel? Okay, and you're gonna say, Well, I just felt like I was just a really bad mum when you said that, or like um, I was a really bad partner because that's what I do. And I'm going to go, Oh my goodness, well, if that's how it felt when I said that, that's awful. That's really hard. Okay. Um, and we can be really quick to defend ourselves. Well, I didn't mean it. Yeah, yeah. That wasn't my intention. But by doing that, I'm kind of dismissing your feelings. What I'm doing instead is acknowledging your feelings. Yeah, okay, I just made you feel this way by what I said. I'm gonna scoop it and I'm gonna sit with it. So we can't avoid the defensiveness and the shame, but we can see it, acknowledge it, and scoop it, you know, and that's really healing because that's how we feel seen as human beings. When somebody notices we feel something, and it's like, oh my goodness, you're feeling this way.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Yeah. Then actually we're like, oh, I've just been really seen, and isn't that lovely?

SPEAKER_00 46:19

Do you think that we're more likely? I mean, I I don't mean in this sp in specifically with relationships, but just in life, I think we're more likely to um not sit with it to kind of because it's easier to maybe just move on, shove it aside. Yeah, and quickly. Right. But we we want to sit in it, sit with it to help move forward.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

That's right. And if we're talking about this and blame and anger come, it's just it's an absolute red flag, there's shame underneath it. So, what I would say is if you're having a conversation, shame and anger comes along, or anger comes along and blame, I would really try to see if you can have a look at that and and be curious about why is that anger there and what's the shame that's sitting underneath it? Okay. Um, yeah, because otherwise we're just running away from feelings.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

Because it's easier.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Yeah, right. We think. There you go. Yeah, it's way easier. Yeah, it is actually easier, causes more pain in the long time. Yes, right. But it's easier in the moment.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

Yes, we'll move on to like physical um now. What role does physical discomfort like sleep disruption, vaginal dryness, fatigue, or body changes play in relationship tension and disconnection?

SPEAKER_01 47:35

I mean, it's massive because if you're not physically comfortable, how are you ever going to want physical intimacy? I mean, you're just not.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

So how or emotional intimacy?

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Maybe. Yes. Like sometimes I just want to be alone.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

And it and it makes us grumpy. Like physical discomfort and like that sensory envelope that we get, it makes us really grouchy. And that can cause shame in other people because then they think, oh, it was me, it caused that.

SPEAKER_03 48:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

We have a thing in our house called the grumpy alert. And I started it with my kids because I didn't want them to think it was their fault that I was grumpy. I wanted to ensure they knew that that this was me, that it was something I was going through, not them. And so I would kind of start to name it, oh, I'm so grumpy. That's horrible. I wonder if you feel like that's your fault. And if they're like, Yeah, I'm like, oh my goodness, that's awful. That you think that you would think that my grumpiness is your fault. You need to know there is nothing that you can really do to make me that grumpy. Okay, and I'm really sorry that I have done that. And then we started to introduce like this narrative called the Grumpy Alert, and I'd I'd be like, What do you know what? It'd be really helpful if could you give me a grumpy alert? And we've got a little song that comes from a UK cartoon called The Flumps that I watched when I was a kid, and there's little songs like cheese, grumpy, cheese grumpy. So they sing to me, cheese, grumpy, and it like reduces my grumpiness straight away. My husband does it to me. Like if they notice that you might be a bit grumpy. That's right. Okay, and it really helps with grumpiness, I bet. But more importantly, it stops them from feeling shame. And as a mother, as a parent, as a woman, that is so important that they don't grow up the shame of my menopause, that they grow up understanding that's a me thing and not of them thing.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

How can women advocate for themselves when they feel dismissed by doctors, partners, or even society during this transition?

SPEAKER_01 49:49

Like this is like so many people's journey, and it's horrible. Because you go to the doctor, you say, I don't feel right, and I think I might be going into the menopause, and they take your bloods and they say, No, your levels are fine. Try and try and do your diet. Well, I tried that, I was about to kill somebody. Okay, honestly, I was just it was awful. I I felt like I was losing my mind, and women do, they feel like they're losing their mind, and yet their blood levels are normal because they're really hard to pick up at this point, they're fluctuating. Often the estrogen levels on day does look good. So we need to be able to go and say, I know me, I know my body, I know something isn't right, okay, and I know my blood levels are right, but I am not okay, and I need to do something. The caveat I would bring here is when we've experienced trauma. So trauma goes through that same cycle, that shame, hiding, anger, blame kind of cycle. And when we go through the menopause and we've experienced significant trauma, it can make the menopause so much emotionally worse. Okay, so when we're starting then to go into the perimenopause and we've had lots of shame, it can actually be helpful. Um, and we haven't had lots of trauma, sorry, I should say, it can actually be helpful to go get some help in order to just try and wiggle out the trauma bit that's then impacting our emotional state in the menopause. I think it's also helpful, like a lot of young women have um um premenstrual dysphoria. It looks like the same kind of thing. And so I work with a few young women, and it this is the same thing. It does not mean we shouldn't be getting help. So I this that again, it's happened to so many of us. When I first went to the doctor, like, well, your blood levels are okay, so let's just try and tweak your diet. I was eating chickpeas, like there was no tomorrow. I eat chickpeas. Anyway, um, eventually I went and I saw a different doctor. I said, Look, I feel like I'm going nuts here. Can you help me? And that they educated me. They said, actually, it's really hard to pick up on you but in your bloods. We're probably not going to pick it up in your bloods, but we are going to trial a tablet, um, like a contraceptive tablet, and see what the impact is. And when that were, they're like, Right, now we know we can put you on HRT because we know this is what's going on. So then they discuss my options and they gave me a COIL and an HRT patch, and they've slowly built the dose. And oh my goodness, what a game changer that has been.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 52:44

You know.

SPEAKER_02 52:45

Um, you were talking about trauma, and then for anyone that's listening, um what exactly do you mean by trauma?

SPEAKER_01 52:54

So usually I'm thinking about developmental trauma. So things that have happened to you as a child, or to you as a child, um like emotional abuse, long-term emotional neglect, um, sexual abuse, physical abuse, um, domestic violence, witnessing that. We often think of them as extremes. Most people who have developmental trauma, it was more of a drip, drip, drip, drip, drip. And so they think actually, oh, it wasn't that bad, but the impact on them is that their cortisol levels were massive during childhood. It turned their amygdala on, full switch, and then you go through life with your alert system, your fight-flight-free system in in full flow, which shuts down our wise mind, it shuts down our frontal cortex. And so we can kind of manage through that, but then we go into the perimenopause, and we cannot manage that because actually our brain is then on fire. When we go into the menopause, our cortisol levels are high, go higher anyway. We don't have all the estrogen to try and calm that, our cortex is shut down more. It's one of the reasons why also we get more brain fog. It's not the only reason, but it's also one of the reasons. And so then when you've got two things doing the same thing, the trauma and the menopause, and then your amygdala is on fire and you're just in pure fight, flight freeze, um, then we just cannot hope to function in any way that is okay for us.

SPEAKER_02 54:40

And is this people who have not healed from the trauma, or still people who have healed from the trauma?

SPEAKER_01 54:47

So they can have done quite a lot of work on the trauma and it can still have an impact. So it's not it, we can have done work and still have this impact, but not always. It depends on how well regulated we are and how well we can regulate our emotions.

SPEAKER_03 55:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 55:06

I mean, that could be a whole topic in itself, but yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_02 55:10

Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

Yeah, we've never really talked about this.

SPEAKER_02 55:15

Yeah, I didn't even know anything about it.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

Okay, I mean, maybe we need to think about that.

SPEAKER_00 55:20

Yeah, um, have you seen menopause actually become a catalyst for stronger, healthier, more authentic relationships?

SPEAKER_01 55:27

Um, that is a great question. And when I was looking at this, I was trying to think. I was like, yeah, of course. And I was like, have I? I think yes, I have. But it's often not like the menopause that's the catalyst. It can be a tricky time of life anyway. Um, with kids, careers, like figuring out who you really are. Yeah, you know. Um, so I think it's often when we're doing the work at that time anyway, or when we're communicating and our communications getting better, maybe because of going through the menopause. I don't think it's just because of the menopause, but I think it's probably a lot of things coming together that can be a catalyst for a healthier relationship. Yes, yeah, a really good question. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:16

Yeah. If you could leave women and their partners with one message about navigating love and connection during menopause, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 56:24

It would be work on your shame around your libido first, okay, because that does not denote how much you love somebody or how much you are loved, and find your segue into talking, just find one thing and then educate yourself.

SPEAKER_02 56:45

Right. What about um for people like not partners, but for women, like that one message for women navigating like older parents, navigating business life, um, working as a professional, having children. What's one message that you can give women? Just more of like the overall.

SPEAKER_01 57:06

I think stop trying to expect perfection of yourself in all of those realms.

SPEAKER_02 57:11

Or almost just trying to stop trying to live the way that you used to, or expect that you should be living the way that you used to?

SPEAKER_01 57:18

I mean, it's often not even the way we used to. I think it's all it's it's been like the way we've always tried to, the levels that we set for ourselves that we're always trying to meet. And then like we've probably worked way surpassed them, to be honest, in terms of like career, kids, etc. But like we're still reaching for more somehow, and we have to have realistic expectations of how much we can do, how well, you know, we we absolutely have to. We have to have so much self-compassion during our lives at this stage, right? And having self-compassion sounds something like okay, some days I am a hot mess, and I'm gonna leave the car running and I'm gonna forget to pick the kids up from school. Okay, and I'm still a worthwhile human being, you know. Um, we have a like a benchmark, like as ever as long as everyone is alive um and hasn't been harmed, we're we're okay. You know, on the days when it's really, really hard. Okay, we have to kind of have something like that on the days that are really, really hard. Not every day, but we have got to have some self-compassion and realism.

SPEAKER_02 58:28

It's a good thing to just kind of remind yourself on those bad days.

SPEAKER_01 58:32

Everyone's still alive. Yeah. Well, I was teaching um trainee psychologists back in the UK, had a whole raft of them, one after the other, for years, and they would come to me like in a panic because something had gone wrong in their case. And I would sit down and I was like, okay, let me just check one thing. Is anybody dead? And they're like, No. Okay, it's like then everything is is workable, everything's well. Oh, so we'll have a few trainees who like all knew each other, like, okay, nobody's dead. Um that you know, okay, maybe that's a bit of a low mark, but also important to remember that like if everybody is alive and okay, then we can fix we everything can be sorted out. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:21

Well, I think we just realized that we have much more that we um can unwrap through more conversations with you. So we really, we really, really appreciate you coming on. Thank you. Yeah, appreciate you asking me. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 59:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:37

And how can people find you if they need to reach out to you and ask you questions and book an appointment?

SPEAKER_01 59:42

Um, they can look on the Life Options website, okay, um, which is www.lifeoptions.ky. Um and they can find me there and book an appointment through there by reaching out.

SPEAKER_02 59:58

And the other thing, um, and maybe I'll make sure that I tag it in the show's notes, is the you spoke at the 2026 Women Women's Health Conference, International Women's Health Conference, or Women's Club. Um, and your YouTube is up.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:15

Yeah, yeah. Do you know? I haven't shared that on any platform.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:19

Why not?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

Um, I think because I've been like this, I share a lot of myself, yeah, yeah, and it's really excruciatingly difficult. Like I don't watch anything back or listen to anything back because I say what I truly believe, and I'm so passionate about saying what needs to be said. Yeah. So much so that I can't listen.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:41

Because then you start overthinking it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

Yeah, and I'm dipping into my shame, you know, so I void. And I really I shouldn't. And I just need to maybe doing this means I need to go and just put that onto my LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:53

Yeah.

unknown 1:00:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:54

We can always do it for you. Appreciate it. Thank you again. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:01

Thanks for joining us on Prest Intentions. We hope you felt seen, supported, and maybe had a few laughs along the way. Don't forget to share, subscribe, rate, and review us. Your support keeps the conversation alive. Follow us on social media for more insights, behind-the-scenes fun, and updates on future episodes. Got a topic you want us to dive into? We'd love to hear from you. Remember, life's too short for bad bras, toxic relationships, and kale you don't actually like. So until next time, stay bold and keep your best intentions exactly where they belong. Front and center. Now go crush midlife, or at least today's to do list. Cheers.