Unbuttoning Modesty | Generational Views, Faith, and Finding Your Own Standards

In this episode of Generational Tea, we’re unbuttoning the layered, loaded, and often controversial topic of modesty. With two different generational perspectives, we dive into the cultural, religious, and personal meanings behind what we choose to wear (or not wear), and how those choices have evolved over time. From rebellious crop tops to faith-based reflections, this conversation explores how modesty has been used as both a tool of control and a form of empowerment. We break down arguments for and against modesty culture, unpack our own past experiences dressing for the male gaze, and share what modesty means to us now as women, wives, and individuals trying to live with intention instead of shame. Whether you’ve been burned by purity culture or are rethinking your wardrobe through a new lens, this episode is here to offer honesty, reflection, and a whole lot of grace. 

• Join the conversation: What are your current beliefs on modesty and how have these beliefs evolved over time? How did your weekly challenge go? Share your reflections in the comments or via our social media.
• What She Said: "What you wear should be a reflection of who you are, not who the world tells you to be". — Nadia Bolz-Weber
• Follow us on TikTok and Instagram @generationalteapod, watch us on YouTube, and listen to us wherever you get your podcasts!
• Microphone flags by Impact PBS
• Intro music by Cymatix
• Logo by @makariann 
• Business email: generationalteapod@gmail.com

Transcript

0:11

getting a little spicy. We're about I miss you. I miss you too. It's terrible. This is bad. This is so lonely. I am so like trying to figure out how I can get there without it being so hot. I might just have to fly in and we just stay inside the whole time. But then miserable. That's not fun. I know it's miserable. So. But anyway, speaking of summer, we have a great subject to talk about today. Boy, did we. Yes. So there's just in time and it's going to be a great focus on generational differences. Yes, we've been talking and we wanted to emphasize that more obviously, like any other episode and discussion we've had, we've been giving different opinions from different generations, but we really wanted to focus on topics that differ generationally as a whole, so we can get into the nitty gritty of it and start a conversation with you guys, our listeners. So the topic we're gonna be digging into today is one that tends to stir the pot. And it is modesty. Yes. So before we really dive into what we're gonna be covering today, we just wanted to let you guys know our backgrounds and it's relevant to the topic. So we are gonna discuss religious material today and our religious beliefs. So if that's not something you want to hear, go ahead and skip this episode. You don't have to listen to it, but we just wanna preface that with it is gonna be an aspect of the conversation today. So yes, I was raised religiously and my. Opinions on modesty and my beliefs have been rooted in religion. I always had a rebellious streak, often by showing more skin. So we'll get into that. And I'm now a blue doc Christian, living in a red state, so I have some different opinions on modesty than some may believe. We'll get into it, but yeah. Ronnie, do you wanna share your background and how that might influence the way you view and talk about modesty? Yes, yes. So my background is I've always lived in the south, always lived in the state of South Carolina, Southern Baptist, born and bred, Modesty was a big thing in our church and, big also in our schools. It's just crazy once I really started digging into this to see how many aspects of probably just the culture of Southeastern folks that we all, regardless of where we were or sometimes even if we went to church or not, have kind of the same, like each generation has their same things that they're kind of carrying through. Yeah. So yeah, it's definitely different than me growing up in Colorado. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's for sure different. So yeah, we'll, we'll talk about that maybe in the future. But anyways. This is obviously a very complex and emotional topic that's often tied to culture, spirituality, patriarchy, self-worth. There's a lot of layers that go into it. And at the end of the day, our goal is not to tell you what to believe about modesty. We're just gonna explore these layers and peel'em back and kind of share our own deconstruction process and beliefs. Yeah.'cause that's essentially what we've been doing when preparing this episode. Mm-hmm. We've been kind of deconstructing why we believe what we believe about modesty, and I actually kind of. Figured out mine. I really feel like, and you said this too, Ronnie, I think we were on the phone, that your opinions on modesty and your beliefs about it kind of waxed and waned through different seasons of life. Yes, and I've kind of felt that, and I think there's value in kind of like planning your feet somewhere. It's not to say that you can't change if you have information, but I think with something like this that is so tied to who you are, it's important to have a firm. Yeah. Point to stand on, right? So that when storms of life come, you know why you believe what you believe, right? And you're confident in it. Yes. So we're just going to, you know, peel back the layers and we don't wanna tell you what to believe, but we're gonna leave some space for reflection and collective growth and respect. and one thing with that, you're gonna hear things you might not agree with today, but we are offering different perspectives because that's part of deconstructing. You can't just. Look at stuff you agree with. Mm-hmm. Like stuff that supports your point. Mm-hmm. You have to look at all sides of the aisle and then you make a decision. So yeah, that's what our plan is to dig into modesty today. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome, awesome. Well we are generational tea and I am your host, Ronnie, and this is, yeah. Cana. Welcome guys. Yes. Thank you for joining us. Yeah. So golly, this whole modesty thing, um, we just Really went back to bare bones. And, and there's just a, there's things that overarching, that contribute to our thought process about modesty. Yeah. And one of those is faith. Mm-hmm. Um, and we know that throughout the Bible, the general meaning of modesty is often connected to humility, dignity, and respect. Mm-hmm. So we'll dig a little bit further into that, but we, we did just wanna say for. Purposes of our conversation, it may be more of how we dress because we are women and it's summer. And so we can come back to this later, but that is definitely the other thing that really can drive how we feel about modesty is the culture. Mm-hmm. You know, I was born in 1972, but did most of my growing in the eighties. Graduated high school in in 1990. So pretty much all of my, most of my formative years as far as me establishing things that I wanted to believe in because I had a passion about it or it was important to me, really was in the, eighties. Yeah. That, because we know that clothing, standard shift, geography shifts, power dynamics, shift race and more. So there are a lot of things culturally that shape the way we feel about mony as well. Yeah, absolutely. As well as modern language that's important to consider when we're talking about modesty because like you were just saying with the Bible, I actually went through and looked up any Bible verse that was talking about modesty, and it does really just mean like humility and dignity and respect. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But it's interesting because we hear modesty now and that's conflated with covering up or maybe even being less sexual. Right. So it. That's a whole nother topic for how we got from point A to point B, but that's what we're dealing with now. So let's talk about it. Ronnie, some talking points to get us started. I feel like these are gonna be interesting. What did modesty mean for us growing up? Okay. For this, I'm really gonna just look at clothing because there is enough clothing wise. So growing up, started out at church. And it was covering up for guys too. Like, so for instance, at church we had to have a dress that was below our knees. We should cover our shoulders. I'd never wanted undressed to church, ever, you know, just like covering my shoulders. Guys weren't allowed to wear hats in the sanctuary or even in church at all initially, so there were no hats, like ball caps. The guys needed to have their shirt. Tucked in and a belt, those kind of things. So that part was growing up. The interesting thing was that that really, and it could have just been by default, but it shaped. Modesty in the school system at that time. Mm-hmm. I really, really feel like it did. Like if we were shorts, they had to be below the tips of our fingers. And you know, of course, you know, no, no showing of the shoulders that tended to, oh God, don't even get me started. I, I would die. I would lie, lie I couldn't, my middle school and my high school can't show your shoulders. Yeah. I was raging about it for years. Yes, I still am. Yes. Yes. Definitely. No cutoffs of any kind. That was a no-no. Oh. And that just spilled over into, like I said, like school, because that is our work when we're that age. And you know, I was a tall kid, uh, who turned into a tall teenager. Mega tall, and especially in middle school.'cause the boys were shorter. But I always had trouble with that shorts below the tips of my fingers. Mm-hmm. Because I also have very long arms. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I can't tell you the number of times that I would be called to the principal's office because I had on two short shorts and you know, all that. My parents just finally, I think they got tired of it and were just like. Take an extra change of clothes. We're not coming to pick you up to go home to change every time, you know? It's too short. when we got to high school, it was definitely still no short, short still that length situation. And I was a cheerleader, which was my only saving grace because we wore uniforms most of the time. Well, I remember I was the tallest. And second to tallest was Wendy Garbe and Roach that we've talked about on this, on this podcast before. And she was tall as well, but not as tall as me. Well, back then you didn't get any uniforms. You did car washes to earn one new uniform per year and all your rest of your uniforms were handed down to you. Well, the fact that there weren't very many five foot nine thin as a rail girls, I always struggled with my skirts being too short, and I did get attention that was not invited and it wasn't like I could do anything about it. Looking back, I maybe could have, but no one was telling me to do something different, so I just dealt with what I had. But, also church, camps, any of that. Definitely no two pieces. No two piece swimsuits, honey. No ma'am. Not gonna happen. Mm-hmm. And so it was one pieces and, and then it was like not over revealing clothes or too tight of clothes. And so I basically, like when I would go out with my girlfriends in high school or after high school, I would borrow my friend's clothes.'cause I didn't really have, I didn't have that short, tight dress, you know? Yeah. So. Here it is, mom. My mom listens every week. I am spill my guts. I mean, it's real. It is so real. Yeah. So, that was kind of like how it was growing up, like, and the whole thing was you don't wanna draw attention to yourself. And I think that the Christian community took a little bit of truth. As they do so many times, a little bit of truth, and then they added to it. And that's, I believe, how modesty got shifted to an exterior first and then an interior where really modesty starts inside. And then the reflection of that can be exterior. Mm-hmm. But everybody that dresses immodestly is not arrogant. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And, and mm-hmm. And you know, the other thing it does when you take a rule or a commandment or something that's scriptural and you add all those things to it, what happens is you start pitting people against each other. Yeah. Because now you've informed them of a rule that you really don't understand the heart behind it. Well that, and also I am a firm believer, like as a Christian, if someone doesn't prescribe to my faith and my beliefs, I have no right to judge them or tell them they're doing something wrong because they're operating on a completely different belief system than I am. Right. And we are not. God. No, we're not. We're not. We can only control ourselves. Right, right, right. Yeah. How about we ran into the Yes, yes, yes. So that's a little bit about me growing up and I took too long, but. How about you Pan? No, you're fine. Yeah. This is interesting because, well, we're from two different generations, obviously. Yeah. And mine looked a lot different. I was raised religiously, but it was also kind of an interesting dynamic. We weren't in church every Sunday like you were.'cause my family had been through a cult and some church trauma and our relationship with religion and church was complicated. But at the end of the day. Especially my mom was very, for the modesty standards that are often associated with Christianity, and as also a tall woman, I struggled to find stuff that fit right. Yeah. And you know, I just remember growing up and there was always comments, like, especially in high school when they did let me decide what I want to wear for the most part. Mm-hmm. Like. I would be wearing jean shorts, not even booty shorts, and my mom would make comments on, they're too short or That is too tight, or, I wasn't allowed to wear a bikini until I was in high school. Probably. All that kinds of stuff. And I felt like such a rebellious urge behind it because one, it was never explained to me like in the right way, I think. Mm-hmm. Why I need to be modest. It was. You're gonna attract their own kind of attention, and that's just what Christians do, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. And I felt like if I would've had someone to explain to me, like the stuff that we're about to get into like I would've been able to form my own opinions on it. And I think I probably maybe would've dressed differently, but also I just, I don't know. I hated being told you were showing too much skin, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I hated it. And yeah, we'll get into all that a little bit later, but. The next question is, what feels most empowering for us to wear now and why? for me personally, whatever I feel comfortable in is the most empowering for me. It's empowering for me to be able to choose and I'll think about anyone else when I'm thinking about what I'm putting on my body. And I'll get into later kind of what I believe about modesty and why I choose the clothes I may choose. But at the end of the day, it's empowering for me to know that. I'm not dressing for anyone else. I'm dressing for myself and I'm expressing myself through my clothes and I'm gonna be comfortable. So when it's 115 degrees here in Louisiana, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna be wearing a crop top and shorts. Yeah, yeah, for sure. A hundred percent.'cause oh my gosh, I'm gonna die. Yeah, that part, for me. What feels empowering for me to wear now is a good pair of jeans, like just worn out, whether I bought'em, worn out, or I wore'em out, a pair of cowboy boots because they are the most comfortable shoes that I have ever put on and some kind of shirt. That's where I feel really powerful. Or mm-hmm. Or feel really confident. The other side of that is like a long black dress, like mm-hmm. Flowing dress. Yeah. But that's, that's me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But the cowboy boots, for sure. Yes. I believe the cowboy boots. Yeah. I, I mean, I love self-expression in clothing and I feel like I'm kind of coming around to that, whereas. Previously I've just been like following the trends of what looks cute and whatever, whatever. And now I'm like finding my own style. And it's empowering to dress in your own style. Yeah, for sure. You do a good job of that. You have a good style. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. So the next question we put in here, and we've kind of already gotten into it, is modesty just about clothes or is it a broader posture of heart? And I am definitely in. The latter. I think it's absolutely about posture of heart and your posture of heart is gonna influence the way you dress. Mm-hmm. But we'll get into that later, but that's definitely what I think. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. let's look at now like some ar arguments against modesty.'cause there are, there are plenty of schools of thoughts. One of those was like body shame and control. Many women they internalize that their bodies are inherently dangerous or distracting, and the way they choose to cover or not cover it makes them responsible for men's thoughts. And that definitely was a part of, my argument for modesty is. Men are visual, but I've done more research on that and I'm not sure that I had all the facts with that. So yeah, same. You know what I'm saying? But I feel like mm-hmm. That was definitely like men are visual. You need to not do this. Otherwise it kind puts the blame on the person that is not the perpetrator. Yeah. They're just trying to live their life well, and, and I mean, God. Made them a certain way and we'll get into that later. But yeah, so, um, also I think, and we had talked about that body shame and control can lead to self-hatred, fear, or poor boundaries with self-expression, so it can box people in. That's why maybe guidelines work a little bit better than hard and fast rules. Yeah. Another argument against modesty, and I think this is a really strong point, is that it reinforces rape culture and victim blaming. And this is something that we see. And in terms of religiously, when we link modesty to tightly with morality, those who don't comply with it are seen as bad or at fault in worse cases. Like if it's a matter of sexual assault or anything. Yeah. Are you familiar with the definition of rape culture? No, tell me about it. Okay, so rape culture is a culture that normalizes sexual assault because men are inherently lustful creatures, and the victim can be blamed for someone else's behavior. So, have you ever heard of, but what were you wearing? What was she wearing? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There was a gray art piece. I don't know where it was, who did it, but. I mean it's, it's sad, but it was, I think it was a bunch of mannequins or anything that were wearing clothing that women had been wearing when they were sexually assaulted, and it was just everyday clothing. Like some of the outfits were so modest. Did that stop'em from getting sexually assaulted? No, fortunately not. So, like we were just talking about when you brought up how, and I was raised in this idea too, that men are just visual Back to the science of this,'cause you said you didn't think you had all the facts. I didn't think I did either. So scientifically, men do have a tendency to respond more strongly to sexual stimuli. Mm-hmm. But these urges and thoughts can be controlled, even if it's difficult. It's not a problem that women can or should feel obligated to solve. And I think when we focus too much on men being more visual creatures. Like women are too. Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've objectified my fair chairman. Exactly. But like all of these things are through self-growth and self-awareness and like gaining respect for a woman. Like that's not gonna be an issue. Right. I don't think it is. Or it's an issue that you can always overcome. Yeah. So. Do with that information, what you will. That's just kind of what I think about it. And I do feel pretty strongly about it. Uh, yeah. Yeah. I think, again, just if you know the heart behind it, then, then you don't even have to get really deep in the weeds with even that when you mm-hmm. If, if we were taught more from the inside out versus Yeah. The outside, inside out, definitely emphasis on the inside out. Yes. So another argument against modesty is that it can hinder bodily autonomy and healthy sexual development. So a focus on modesty can teach women that their sexuality is something to be bottled via modesty. And also, I feel like this can affect other areas that are a bit larger, like just interactions with men and stuff like that. And I do think it's important. I, I do acknowledge that sex is different for women than it is for men in some ways. And I do believe that you should pick very carefully who you, who you sleep with. Mm-hmm. But I also think that women should be in touch with their sexuality. And when the modesty is linked to morality and it's pushed so heavily, I just think that gets in the way of that. And I think women should be equally as aware of their sexuality in their bodies as any other person. Yeah. If that makes sense. It makes total sense. I'm just gonna interject something right there. Mm-hmm.'cause I had a thought. What I have seen happen is when the focus is on that men are, you are visual and you need to cover yourself up. Well that can backfire on a mother big time because what you've just told your child is. You have power, you as a woman have power and you can use that. And so that can backfire. It's just like when people say, and this is somebody has asked us to cover this, and we will later, but it's just like when people say, like a generational thing, but it's almost like saying, don't touch that. But I'm gonna touch it. So when makes someone want to do it more, it makes somebody wanna do it more. And that's, again, guidelines are better. But you have, you've just told this child, oh, here it is. Like I have, I have female friends that have kids in their twenties, late twenties, thirties, even when their kids were in high school. These kids would be dressed in a certain way and the moms would be like, oh, she's got the body to do it. I told her, go ahead and do that now, because one day you're not gonna have the body to do that. I think that also is giving power. It's like untethered power.'cause what you've said is, oh, men are visual. You've got the power. You do that now because one day they won't be looking at you anymore. Yeah. Well, and that was a hundred percent true in my case. My mom was making comments about it and trying to get me to be more modest, and what did that make me do? Run in the other direction. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, it's true for sure. But that power that can happen to women that. Can spill way on in your life and it has repercussions when, you know Yeah, it does. That really can, can really, bring about some scars and confusion. Yeah, because, okay, take me, I married this man. We didn't have sex before we got married, and I don't understand what's wrong with me because he doesn't wanna have sex every night. And I would cry myself to sleep. And you know what I always thought about? I didn't wear the right outfit. Oh my gosh. I didn't look good enough. Wow. So you see how that just came back around? Full circle. Circle. And I do need to shout out to my mom. This was not anything that she really pushed. Yeah, because, and I think too, there were enough rules out there that she didn't have to. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? But it that spills over when you teach girls that they have that kind of power. When they're not married and then they get married and they're finally committed to somebody and they don't want to have sex with you every night, you automatically go back to what visually am I not doing that he should want me? Yeah. What is wrong with me? It must be my body. Mm-hmm. Yes. Because even if I'm showing it, he might, he's not interested in the way I want. Yes. Or I think he should be interested. Yes. Well, that's a very profound realization and. I'm kind of thinking back too.'cause like I said, I ran in the other direction when my mom was pushing modesty on me and then in college I kind of had a realization that I was dressing and it wasn't even like crazy. Im modestly, but I was showing a lot of skin and I was dressing for the male gaze and I was not dressing for self-expression. Mm-hmm. I wasn't dressing for what makes me comfortable, what makes me confident. I was dressing for. Men around me because I wanted attention because I was insecure and male. Attention was like plug in the little hole. It was not a permanent fix. Exactly. It was a very temporary, very unfulfilling fix. Yes. So good. Yeah. I think, we'll, I think we're gonna get into that in some of the next section arguments for modesty. Yes, yes. We have one more point for arguments against modesty. And I do believe this. I think some of the rules for modesty, and especially when it's linked to morality, it's rooted in patriarchy. Because if you really look at it, modesty codes and what this religion and that religion tell you to wear as a woman are an arbitrary set of rules enforced on women by men, often an entirely male run religious institutions. So just chew on that. Yeah. Yeah. And who knows? They could, could've, it's not a woman making up these rules, right? It's not women and, and then, you know, we don't know why it started initially. Was it that a man was really drawn to people and needed to put that into account so that they could stay? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Pure, I think. Or religious. There's so many layers that went into how we got to where we are today. Yeah. And the biggest thing is I, I don't think that these con, these types of conversations were had and women didn't have a seat at the table. And yes, I think if we want people to dress modestly, and you're coming at it from a religious standpoint, you have to have a discussion like this. Mm. Mm-hmm. Stay tuned. We're gonna get into all this other good stuff we have to talk about. Yes. So now let's look at arguments for modesty when it's self-defined and we wanna make sure we say self-defined, that can be a guided self definition. Mm-hmm. And if you're really struggling with your mom or maybe somebody that still is kind of dictating how you wear. Seek somebody else out. Like find somebody that you can have a conversation with and, and not somebody that is gonna agree with you a hundred percent of the time, but you know, if you could, if you're not able to have like an educated conversation or something that's not so heightened, you might need to go and just talk to somebody different and try to get their, their viewpoint. Yeah. All right. So the first is we have empowerment through choice. So this is, this is an argument for modesty and dressing. Modestly by your own choice can be powerful form of self-respect, and spiritual alignment. For instance, like not dressing for the male gaze because expression is not freedom. It's motivated by insecurity or ulterior motives. So we're just saying like. Make sure that if you're choosing this, that you're doing it for the right reasons. Yeah. That was very profound for me. Mm-hmm. Because when I was doing the research, and I had currently already realized that at one point in my life I was dressing for the male gaze and just again, like going back through it and thinking about what I was doing at that time. Mm-hmm. The phrase expression is not freedom if it's motivated by insecurity. I was like, wow. Okay. Okay. Yeah, that's good. It's true. It's not freedom if it's motivated by insecurity or ulterior motive. It's, yeah, yeah. Also this, this choice can act as a boundary against unwanted attention, and it's less about fear and more about agency. Yeah, definitely. So yeah, I think that like no matter what you're wearing, you might, uh, get unwanted attention because that's just life. As a woman. You ever walk down the street in New York City, how many times you got Cat called? Yeah. When you're wearing like a. Full. Full get up. Yes, it's gonna happen. But this is about kind of claiming power in the sense of agency of maybe I just really hate when that happens. Yeah. So if I wanna dress a certain way and I like this way and it feels good, then if I get Cat called less, that's great. An added bonus. Okay. I love that. Yeah. The next argument for modesty and what we've kind of been referring back to starting inwardly and working outwardly is the focus on inner worth. So self-defined that word again, modesty can redirect energy from outward appearance to inward development. And this is big for me because I feel like I have been obsessing over them and trying to get them to be perfect. And I think that's a very woman experience. We all hate our bodies and we all look different, which sucks and we can't be doing that anymore. But when we're focused on dressing more modestly or maybe just really settling into self-defined expression through clothing, we can direct our energy toward inward development.'cause Lord knows we could use more of that. Yes. So this can help us resist the pressure of perfectionism comparison and the beauty industrial complex when social media has made all of these things thrive, and it has made everything into a comparison and a competition, which is not good. And it's just also acknowledging that covering our body, our sexuality, our beauty, doesn't diminish any of those things. In some cases, it can honor their importance. So, and save it for those who truly care about us, which I really agree on that point as well. Yes, yes. Yeah. Again, that is that whole thing of going inward before going outward. Mm-hmm. You know, and, and you may be listening to this and thinking, man, I blew that with my kid, but you're gonna have a grandchild someday and, and maybe that'll be a granddaughter that you could start, you know, at that point. Mm-hmm. Or you can always go back. Yeah. another argument for modesty is respecting relationship. So this could be another reason why someone chooses to dress more modestly than others. So maybe in marriage, for example, your body is not shameful. In covering it doesn't necessarily mean that you feel ashamed about it. But instead, you may be choosing to reserve certain expressions for your partner to honor your private intimacy. Mm-hmm. I know. And I think that's a completely valid reason for wanting to dress modestly as long as it's self-defined. Yeah. The last one is spiritual and cultural in integrity. So for many women for example, like Muslim, Orthodox, Jewish, Christian, Amish, all these kinds of things, having modesty is like a symbol of their faith, their reverence, or the community belonging and. I know I've railed a bunch about Christianity and what I think about the general rules about modesty, but I also acknowledge that for other women of faith that this is a symbol of belonging and a symbol of faith and reverence to them. And it doesn't feel like repression to them if they're choosing it in it's self-defined. Right. But for me, I don't feel like it's self-defined. I feel like it's forced. So there's the difference. Yes. Yes. And, you know, I was looking up some of this just fashion wise and they were talking about, I found an article that was talking about, or several that was talking about right now, uh, fashion is in a more modest era. We're doing more. Think about it. There's flowers and long flowy dresses. I don't know. I mean, it, it, it does tend itself to modesty because a lot of these are long dresses and they're flowy and they were either talking about like with Muslim or Hindu or different, where they do wear like the coverings that now they're making those in silk and different colors. And so even those, these women are like. They're honoring their religion. There's been a space made for them to still self-express within that. Yeah. That's cool. And I think it's just so cool. That is cool. And so, yeah, they were definitely talking about like just the differences in the materials and how a material feels against you versus, you know, I just. I'm about to cry. I just think it's, I don't know where that's coming from, but I just think it's No, it's, it's good. I just feel like it has to be so liberating. Yeah. For, and I don't, I'm not saying that those people are oppressed. I'm not saying that I feel like that we feel that way because we don't truly know it. But I don't want to feel sorry for them. I want to. I want to celebrate them. So I am very glad that there have been some major moves in allowing those ladies to truly express themselves and still stay within the guidelines of their religion. Yeah. So that they can honor their faith. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I agree. It is really cool. You good? Yes. I'm sorry. I had a moment. I know where that came from. Have a moment. Uh, but I real, I think we're getting into a lot of emotional topics today. Yeah. And, and you don't even realize how much we are the same person. Are you realizing that more now? Same person, different generation, so now we're gonna look at how modesty could influence our marriage, different boundaries, nuances, alliances, and maybe some practical ways that we might want. To consider something different in the way that we conduct ourselves. So, so some women, including us in the past for sure, feel uncomfortable or annoyed when others dressed in modestly around our husbands. And let's talk about what's really underneath that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I'll tell you that, we had already talked about that. It was like. Hm. Being in a Southern Christian woman in the presence of a man, it was definitely no two piece swimsuits, no shorts, and things like that. But when you're telling somebody, it doesn't matter how much they're pursuing God as a child, they are still a child. And when you tell them that they have this kind of power, um, I think then as we get older, we'll almost project that on. To other kids or other women that we see that are dressing Yeah. Promiscuously because we know the way it drove us. Yeah. We know what that did to us. You know, Jim, for instance, he worked in a fitness center for 34 years. My man, every day went to work and saw women in spandex for 34 years now. How do you deal with that? It was it very carefully, I'll say, but just remember, if you're having major issues with this part of your life, go to your spouse first and y'all have a conversation before you go and blow off a friend or blow them up when they did something completely innocent. So, yeah. Yeah. So Cana, yeah, that's a, yeah, that's a great point. And I've been saying, I dressed for the male gaze. I know why I was wearing what I was wearing. Mm-hmm. And it wasn't for the right reasons. And as a now married woman, I have projected that on other women and like judge them. And I don't like that I did that now because I believe different things now, but. I do think it's valid. Like I think if anyone, like we've felt these feelings about other women, I think it's valid to feel protective, especially when you've been conditioned religiously. Mm-hmm. From your upbringing, from your roots. Yeah. I mean, even more so you than I, it's a fear that sets in. It absolutely is. Yeah. So I am kind of deconstructing. I realize I needed to examine where these feelings are coming from because I. Would feel disgusted with myself later that I was like judging and thinking things about these women when at the end of the day I trust my husband and I needed to settle in that I did realize I had some other feelings and I did have issues trusting men in general, even though my husband has been amazing. But like that was an issue I had with men from experiences that I've had. Mm-hmm. And then also being raised in a faith that was subconsciously teaching me that men can't control their urges, so. Like I was saying earlier, both genders have the capacity for lutful thoughts and it's upon ourselves to grow out of it. And these thoughts I was having towards other women were coming from a place of discomfort. Like I said, it reminded me of the past dressing for male attention and all that stuff, but I realized once I looked a little deeper that it really was about issues that I was projecting. Yeah. So, yeah. Could you imagine that? Yeah. Yeah. So we also need to think about when we're in that situation, maybe these are some questions that we could ponder so that we don't respond in a way that's reactive. Mm-hmm. Is it about others or about our own boundaries, relationships, and past experiences. So when you are looking at a group or having a group situation, and maybe somebody there is not dressing in a way that. That that you wish that they would is kind of looking and saying like, is this about them really? Or is this about myself? And Yeah. Nine times outta 10, it's about ourselves. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. And that, and that brings us, yes. Yes. To the next one. And that brings us to our next question. Yes. Can we disagree with someone's presentation without condemning it? And the answer for me after doing all of this research is yes, yes, yes. A thousand times. Yes. Yes. It's not our business to correct or judge someone else's choices when we don't know them, we don't know what they believe, what values they have. Mm-hmm. Everyone's different. Everyone has different values, everyone has different experiences. Everyone has different faith or no faith at all. It's not our. Business to be self-righteous and correct, or judge others. Yeah, I, I agree a hundred percent with that and of thankfully, because it is so religiously bound, thankfully Jim and I were able to kind of step out of a traditional church setting into more of a community church. Some people used to call them secret churches. And I remember specifically a gal that came to our church who was a stripper. Hmm. And she wore the clothes that she had and that was all she had, and this, it was the most incredible thing. So she came, she met a guy at the church, or either the guy came with her. Long story short, she gets involved in a small group. They go to this couple small group with another friend that was leading it, and she was the one that was telling me all about it. Turns out they end up. Marrying each other. She becomes a Christian. Mm-hmm. They end up marrying each other. They want to get married right after service on a Sunday. So all of her shipper friends come and they're whole guard. But what I loved about that was clearly she never felt judged. Yeah. In that setting. That's awesome. So that is like, and I just thought about that. That speaks volumes not to the. Church itself, the people in the church, the community. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The way we were, uh, focusing on Christ and what we can control and what we are responsible for. And so when those kind of things come through the door, we've already dealt with that. It's not our problem. So yes. That's great. That's an awesome story. Yeah, it's a great story. Yeah. And they are still together, honey. This has been like nice. 11, 12 years ago. Huh. Wow. Yeah. That's, in my opinion, that's Christians doing. Yes. That was us doing as charged with being the hands and feet of Jesus. Yeah. And just absolutely loving her and accepting her. Nobody went out and took her shopping. It was a gradual thing that you do. They gotta know how much you care before they care how much you know. Mm-hmm. So it's, it was just a really cool thing I, and I'm grateful that I got to see something like that in my lifetime. Yeah. That's cool. All right, well next, right, as we get to our closing, I thought it would be valuable for us to kind of share a belief statement.'cause that's the thing I did at the end of this process of deconstructing. And I thought it would be useful to share with you guys And as we get to our challenge of the week, maybe after you have a reflection on what modesty means to you and what you believe going forward, you can write your own belief statement as well.'cause I really love that and it helps for me to have to be able to look back on things and know this is why I believe what I believe, and this is how I explained it. Right, right. Go ahead. I want to hear it. So. For me, modesty is not about the rules, it's about the intention. So like I've been saying in the past, dressing for the male gaze and for attention and to feel validated when I was insecure by showing a lot of skin did not leave me fulfilled. Now I dress in a way that makes me feel confident, aligned in my spiritual beliefs, yet free to express myself in ways I want to without the shame and guilt of rigid rules and expectations. As a progressive woman of faith, I think modesty is less about covering up our skin and showing up with self-respect and grounded in our value. I believe we should respect other women's choices about modesty, whether we agree or not, because it is a deeply personal and subjective choice to make as a woman, and not everybody is the same as ourselves. Yep. Mic drop. Mic drop. Um, yeah, what you got? I got this. Okay. I wrote it down. I don't take a whole lot of notes, guys, but this one I did. I was like, she didn't write it down. She's just gonna it. No, I didn't. I act, I am not winging this part of our conversation. Alright. My belief statement is that modesty is a mindset. It's a core value that promotes humility, consideration, and a focus on character over external appearances. It encompasses much more than just how we dress. It's about a way of thinking, speaking and acting that reflects respect for myself and for others. Mm-hmm. So I truly believe that modesty is a mindset, and I think as a generation, multiple generations, if we can continue to have that in the forefront of our mind, we will not have to police what our children wear. Yeah. We won't have to. What do you think younger Ronnie would think about? What just came outta your mouth right now? Okay. Younger Ronnie. Okay. Well, I've struggled with a lot, but confidence is not one of them until about two years ago and I'm over that now, so I feel she's back. I am back. But honestly, Ronnie would say, you know what, idiot. No, I'm just kidding. I'm gonna tell you what young, I'm gonna tell you what older Ronnie would say to younger Ronnie. Can I say that or no? It's gotta be what would be younger. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I think older Ronnie would say to younger Ronnie, you did the best you could with what you had and when you knew better. You did better. So good job. Mm-hmm. Made that the truth. Yeah. Yay. I think that, Cana now would say the same thing to younger Cana. Absolutely. And I also think that if I read like younger Cana would say, I think she would be proud of me, honestly. Oh yes. Younger caner would be so proud. And I do have to say that, and I've already told Cana this, I have never. She has never made me feel uncomfortable with the way she dresses in front of me, in front of Jim. And, you know, and, and this is a, this is somebody who, like you lived with us before you were married and even while you were married. So I just wanna say to you, I appreciate that. Did she wear things or does she wear things that I don't wear? Absolutely. But again, if you are having major issues with somebody being immodest, check yourself and check your relationship. Ain't that the truth? Yeah. Cool. Cool. Okay. Go to therapy probably. Yes. Yes. So let's look at what she said. Cana, tell us about what she said today, what she was saying. Okay. This quote, what you wear should be a reflection of who you are, not who the world tells you to be. Love that. And this is from Nadia Bulls Weber, a progressive Lutheran pastor. So good. So good. Mm-hmm. Like we had said earlier, we would challenge you to write out a belief expectation that you have, or belief statement that you have now. Mm-hmm. Especially if you have younger kids and it's not time to talk about that, or if you're just. Write it down, it's gonna change it's fluid, but have something, like you said, Cana, like some kind of foundation that is solid. And then there's other, so other, the storms come. Yes. The crises come or the conflicts come, or your kids start asking you questions about X, Y, and Z. Or your daughter's body starts changing. Yes. You know? Yes. What you believe and how to discuss it with her. Yes. So, yeah. Yes. Reflect on what it means to you now, not what you were taught, not what your community expects. Yes. What does it mean to you? Yeah. The keyword we right now. Yes, yes, yes. Alright, well we thank you so much as always. Please. Um. Like us, follow us on our different platforms. Uh mm-hmm. Thank you so much for your feedback. We love getting your messages, so keep that up. And that's it for today and the way we end every show. And that's, that's the tea. The tea. Thank you guys for joining us on this enlightening discussion.