From Court to Career | A Journey of Resilience & Growth with Lindsay DeVore

In this week’s episode, we’re sitting down with Lindsay—Kaina's former collegiate volleyball teammate, powerhouse communicator, and the kind of woman who can call out your BS with grace (it's her superpower, no joke). We talk about what it means to carry confidence off the court, how to confront others without losing your cool, and what happens when the “life plan” you were so sure of doesn’t work out. Lindsay opens up about her self-love journey, life after competitive sports, grappling with body image and food struggles, and redefining success after not passing the LSAT twice. Through it all, she remained rooted in her inner worth and ultimately found her calling in communications and advertising. We also explore how being an educated Black woman shaped her ambition, self-perception, and her desire to make an impact in whatever she does. This episode is for anyone who’s faced a hard pivot in life, struggled with finding their own voice or value, or just wants a masterclass in speaking up while staying grounded.

• Join the conversation: How can you embrace the power of the pivot? If you struggle to speak up, who are you keeping the peace for? Share your reflections in the comments or via our social media.
• What She Said: Lindsay shares a short, profound mantra that has helped her move through the no's in life. Tune in to hear it! 
• Where to find Lindsay: https://linktr.ee/LindsayDeVore1
• Follow us on TikTok and Instagram @generationalteapod, watch us on YouTube, and listen to us wherever you get your podcasts!
• Microphone flags by Impact PBS
• Intro music by Cymatix
• Logo by @makariann 
• Business email: generationalteapod@gmail.com

Transcript

Kaina G: 0:11

Well welcome everybody to Generational Tea Podcast. I'm Cana. And I'm Ronnie. And we have a very special guest and one of my close college friends. Lindsay, welcome. Lindsay. So awkward. Not really. It's okay. We have a lot of awkward moments, so if we do, just know that I'll just edit those little jokers right now. Yes. Don't even worry about it. Yes, thank you. And if you like stutter, say like a million filler words. I got you. Edit. Yes, I, I'll make you look good. I'll do my job, I swear. Alright, well we're gonna get down to the questions'cause I know it's getting late your guys' time. Well, late-ish. So Lindsay and I played college volleyball together and I remember always admiring you and looking up to you and. Just at this point in my life, I'm happy to have you on the podcast'cause I feel like you're a really great example and role model for me as a woman. So let's, let's stick into these questions. For our audience and those that don't really know you, how would you describe yourself today and how has that version changed since college? Yeah. Today I would definitely describe myself as ambitious, creative, and compassionate. I just graduated with my master's in advertising at York City, Tennessee. Congratulations. Thank you. And this is the first time where I've like, looked up. I feel like I've been like this for the past, like six years of doing school. That's the first time I'm being like, okay, like, what does Lindsay want? And I call like, my season of becoming nice, becoming what we're not sure, but we're on this journey and I'm just excited to see like where it goes. Yeah. That's really cool. That's awesome. I like that idea of becoming, and I feel like that's very true. You've just been like grinding away, I mean, ever since I met you, really. And now I'm excited that you're really gonna like, get out of school and really like, pursue life. That's really exciting. Yeah. when we played volleyball together, and kind of like I just said, I remember being struck by how confident and grounded you were at such a young age. As someone that was like so far on the opposite end of the spectrum, I felt like I was. Really insecure and soft spoken, and I never spoke my mind. And then you came in to my life and I was like, oh my gosh, like who is this? Like who is this? And how can I get to be like her? Yes. So that confidence, even as like early in college, was that something you were raised with or did you really cultivate that yourself before coming to college? It's funny that you say that because in college I feel like I was in my own little world trying to like, navigate, and I'm the type of person I feel like externally I come off. Like I have it all together, but internally I'm like, you know. And it was definitely built over time. I've, mm-hmm. I've done a lot of, self-help books specifically, I just love a good self-help book, like Gentle Reminders by Brianna West. Okay. That got me through. What? What'd you say? Gentle reminders. Gentle reminder. Cana, can you put that in the show notes? Yes. Yeah. Have you read it too? No, I have it. Okay. Is that the girl that writes that book? The Mountain is you? I think so. I think I've heard her name before, but I haven't read any of her books. Yeah, she has another one that's like when you're ready to heal. Read when you're ready to heal. Something like that. It's a great book too, but, okay. At that time I was doing a lot of books. I was watching a lot of podcasts, which they weren't, podcasts weren't really a thing when we were in college. It was more so just like YouTube videos. Yeah. That people were just like throwing together. I was doing a lot of that and then just kind of on this self love journey. I feel like I've been on all throughout college, and then it just like grew. I've even done the whole like post-it note, you put it on Your mirror and like do affirmations just'cause I feel like when you believe it yourself and you see it all the time, it just becomes innate and a part of you. yeah. Okay. That's cool. What do you feel like with all these, like self-help books and like self-care hacks and affirmation, all that, what do you feel like has been like the, like maybe like top two or top three most effective things you've read about or found or tried? And I'm putting you on the spot'cause I wasn't on the question list, but yeah, you can use a sub question. It's okay. One thing I've really had to learn is how to regulate my emotions. Like that's something I wasn't really taught, especially within like the black community we're taught really just like be strong. College is supposed to be hard. Keep your head down, like you'll, you'll figure it out and like, no, like you're, if you're struggling, you should go seek help. Seek help can mean different things. Like it could maybe mean you go to a counselor if you're comfortable, go to a therapist. For me, I didn't feel like it was that bad. And I hate to say it like that, but I didn't feel like it was bad enough for, I needed to seek. But honestly, maybe I just didn't feel confident too. Like if that was my environment and everybody around me was doing that, maybe I would have, but I just chose to, I hate to say self-medicate because that sounds awful, but I chose to find my own avenue and from that it made me realize like one, I need to learn how to regulate my emotions, and be able to talk through them. So I've done a lot of like breath work. Which I thought was silly. Okay. I'm not gonna lie, I thought it was so silly. I've done a lot of affirmations, especially when I'm feeling anxious. I'll just be like, I'm capable or I deserve this. Or like, I'm lovable. Just like small stuff like that to remind myself like I can do hard things. Mm-hmm. And that they're not as daunting as I make them. They feel big in the moment, but in reality, like they're not that big. Yeah. So that's something that's helped me get through those like moments where I'm playing anxious or nothing. I do, when I'm presenting, I'll like hold my hand like this. Well, it'll be like this to you and I'd be standing normal, but I'll like tap my hand like that. Mm-hmm. Um, so I don't shake. Oh wow. We will rock. Or they'll tap and like, I'll just, my hands look like this so you don't see me. Like really like touch it, but it helps calm myself down. That's a hack for my job on the floor. No.'cause whenever I'm public speaking, I'm always like shaking or I'm very fidgety and I wanna stop doing that. So yeah, you should try it. Okay. Another tip my dad always told me was, he was like, he would always go like this and like, that's the pace you need to talk. Oh, okay. And that so, because when I get nervous I start talking like, like so fast. Yeah, same. And people like slow down. So that's something else that I'd like implemented too. Okay. That's awesome. Yeah, that's, that's really cool. Definitely good hacks. And I also have read a lot of like self-help stuff and we've talked about a lot of self-help topics on this podcast. And like so much of it goes back to emotional regulation. Mm-hmm. And it's crazy that like, I don't feel like I was taught it and I think Ronnie, you agree too. Oh my gosh. And it's just like the key to life, I feel like, especially when you're an adult and things are hard and life is coming at you really fast. Yeah. Like you have to be able to regulate your emotions, but it's so hard. But it's so hard. It is. You, my friend, you have what I have. You have a superpower for calling people out without blowing up or shrinking down. Tell us how you learn to confront others so directly, but yet gracefully and honoring them, Tell us about how you deal with that. What, what's behind? Yeah. My family is super honest and that's where I learned it from and I didn't realize I was being blunt or like calling people out.'cause that's just, that's a fact. Like that's what happened. So let's talk about it. Yeah. And as I've gotten older, I'm like, oh, other people are not like that. Yeah, totally. As I'm like, oh. Maybe it, it was true, but maybe I should not have said it like that. And as I've gotten older, I've realized there's a difference between like honesty and transparency. Like you can be honest. Yes. Like to me, honesty is like I just tell you what it is. Matter of fact, transparency has like a level of vulnerability within it where it's like, I'm being honest, but you didn't have to ask me. Like, I'm telling you. And here's the other layers too. Like, you did this, it made me feel X, Y, and z. Versus just being like, you did this and just leaving it there. Right. So as I've gotten older, I'm like, okay, you can be honest, but you also need to be compassionate within the honesty and mm-hmm. There's a time and place for it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because I used to just be honest. I didn't care. Like your feelings were hurt, not my concern. Move on. Yeah. And it wasn't an active thought, but now that I've gotten older and I'm more aware with my own emotions and other people's feelings, I'm like, okay, let's take a step back. You can be honest with also considering their feelings with what you're about to say. One thing I've started doing with my friends, um, I started doing with my friends, but I'll, I'll say like, do you want my honest opinion right now? Or do you want support? Because some people just aren't in a position where they want the honesty so bluntly, they just want you to listen and not help me like through a lot of my friendships. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. And I think the distinction between transparency and. Outright confrontation is, is very important. And I like that you highlighted that because there is a way to do it in a right way. Just a side note on that question, I always was so very impressed that you were able to do it. And then like I know like when you were saying earlier, like on the outside you're like calm, cool and collected, but on the inside you're like freaking out. Mm-hmm. So that's good to know because in my head, it's either or, like I have to be calm in the inside to be calm on the outside, but that's not necessarily the case. And I feel like you've done a very great job of being able to confront people in a classy way, but also a way that is like, yeah, it's a fact and it needs to be said out loud and like not everyone has the courage to do it, but you do. And don't ever back down from that because throughout your life. You will have revelations it's not like you're fortune telling or anything, but the way you see the world is so different. It's almost, some people use empathic that you know how somebody feels when they walk into the room. Yeah. Or you know that, person that, it comes to your mind and you're like, I need to call her. Don't forget it because there are so many times that I'm like, Cana, are you okay? Because I'm feeling, and we haven't talked nothing. Nothing. And I'll, because I'll say, you know, I'm just feeling like maybe you might be a little stressed today or whatever. So you're good with that. Good for you. You're so good that that. That is a superpower. Yeah. Well, I feel like it's a superpower, especially as a woman, and this bridges into our next question. I think a lot of women are raised to be the peacemakers and the people pleasers. Like I think that's just a very woman experience that we're kind of raised that way. And whether that comes from like gender things and whatever, doesn't matter. But I wanna give you a platform because I feel like you do the opposite, so well, what would you say to women that are trying to unlearn things like that and help find their voice? I would say, when you're keeping the peace, who are you keeping the peace? Like whom are you keeping the peace from? Um, I feel like when you keep the peace for other people, you're doing it for them and then you're in turmoil about it, but you live with you every day. So like, why would you live with yourself every day? Like, feeling less than, or feeling unheard or feeling unappreciated in whatever environment that you're in. Mm-hmm. So like that's what motivates me to speak up. Because I would rather say something and it not work out, in my opinion, be heard than to have to like hold it in. It's like when you harbor it in, you're gonna explode. And then people look at what you exploded at and be like, you're overreacting. But really it's all these layers that they mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. And I feel as women, we, we just pack it on. We just keep going, we keep going. Mm-hmm. And then something small happens like. Someone forgot to take the trash out or your laundry, shrunk your favorite shirt and you just spazz out. Yeah. You're like, we can get you your shirt. We can go take the trash out. And you're like, it's not that. It's all these other things. So I think when you get it at the small, like the micro level, it doesn't have to blow up to the big level. And then as you start calling out the smaller things, it just gets more comfortable for you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. To be able to do that. Mm-hmm. For sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it definitely does. I feel like that's something I've had to learn in in recent years and. For me, I realized how much of it was a matter of like self-respect for myself and also like my self-esteem. So when I was keeping quiet in certain moments or I didn't have the courage to like just believe in my voice and believe the things that I said that I like, were think was thinking had value to like speak out loud and over time, like me being quiet or people pleasing or trying to keep peace for whatever reason now, like a few years down the road, I'm like, oh my gosh. Well, I'm wondering why I hate myself and it's because I don't believe in myself. Like I don't have the courage to like. Believe in my own voice and I was like, oh my gosh, how did I get here? I also think People will treat you the way you tolerate them, if that makes sense. I'm trying to say like basically the things you accept is how people are gonna treat you. So if you constantly don't share your voice, they're gonna constantly keep overstepping.'cause one, they might not know it's an issue or two, they might not care. They can go. Yeah, right way, but, but I would rather, you know, it's a boundary and if you cross it, then I will no longer be there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you have to establish those things. So early in a relationship, we've got a family situation going down on our side of. Gem side and it's gonna have to be handled with so much care. Yeah, that's very delicate. Um, it's a very delicate thing, but I'm trying to encourage my husband, like set the boundaries early and stick to'em and communicate'em. I feel like we hear everything about setting boundaries and even keeping that, but mm-hmm. I feel like we need to know more about how to relay. Mm-hmm. That boundary to that person, you know, it's not fair to put up a fence around something and then not tell'em why or not why. Right. But, but just, you know, this invisible fence. If they know, you know, you can only call me between six and seven or something like that, and you stick to that and you don't answer the phone at five after seven, unless obviously it's like a major emergency. That's obviously different, but just kind of. Establishing that, and to me that's one of the best care things that we can do for ourselves mm-hmm. Is like, get something like that in place. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that when you're dealing with tough times, you, you have an out, you have things that you've said if this, this, and this happens, we're not doing that. But yeah. Anyhow, so, man, if we had a nickel for every time we said the word boundaries on this podcast. It is so, so true. You probably have like a dollar 50 or something. Let them let them That one too. Yes. Did you read that one? Yes, I have you. But I've seen her podcast. Oh yes, it's good. Yeah, that was probably my favorite self-help book that I've read to date. It was just like so easy and I feel like I like immediately notice the impact. It's, but yeah. Yeah. You'll have to lemme know what you think after you read it. It is not your typical boring self-help book. You know, like, you know what I'm talking about. Like, you get in and you're real enticed in the first chapter and then all of a sudden it just like gets technical or there's all these steps. Hers is just very good the way she writes. And yeah, you can read one chapter and if somebody stole the book from you, it would change your life. Just that one chapter of whatever it is. But yeah, that's good. Okay. Yeah, that's really cool. Now let's talk about if the superpower is not well received. Have you ever had a moment where speaking up didn't go how you hoped? Does your superpower backfire? That's what I wanted to know. Yeah, it does. I've never, I'm a hundred percent I. No, like I've had to learn, mainly my superpower when it comes to other people's emotions and feelings, it's backfired. Mm-hmm. For instance, there have been times where I have called someone out or said how, what their behavior is doing, how it makes me feel uncomfortable, and they haven't been in a receiving posture. And it's hard when you tell somebody how they're affecting you and then they don't make the effort to fix it. Because on their end, maybe they don't have the emotional capacity to do that. And I've definitely had friendships like that where I'm saying, this is what I need. Or even previous relationships, I'm like, this is what I need. And they're not able to like do it.'cause like I need this, they can only gimme this much. And like, that's not their fault necessarily, but it's like I'm still being impacted. Yeah. So that's definitely times where my, I'm like, okay, I do have the superpower, but it's not always gonna win. Right. Because. You know, I, you can't control other people. You can't control how they're gonna respond or react. Mm-hmm. That's another thing. When you are confrontational, you kind of are speaking up for yourself because you don't know how they're gonna respond. Right. But you're not doing it for them. You're doing it for you. Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Emphasis on that part. Yes. Alright, well, are you ready to talk about our mutual identity crisis? I'm gonna have coffee or, I mean, it's in, it's in the past, but I mean, yeah. Well anyway, we're gonna, yes, it's the B word volleyball. We both spent years, days, hours and hours being athletes and it's kind of become part of who we are, even though we're very different people now post-college. But I wanted to discuss on the podcast with you about just really general identity crisis that comes after college sport. So what was that transition like for you? All? The good, all the bad. I wanna hear it. Yeah, it was tough. Granted, we both graduated in COVID, so it was already, the world was already, yeah. Extra tough. Extra tough. I feel like COVID people either got really in shape or they like gained a bunch of weight, like it was either or. Mm-hmm. And I really lost myself. Especially once I started grad school. It was the first time I had school without sports and it showed. I had gained like, almost like 20 pounds my first year of grad school just because I like to go eat with my friends. I wasn't moving as much. A lot of my classes were online, or I wasn't like nearly as active. Mm-hmm. But to the like, athletic point, I feel like going from the structure to nothing really messed with my mind. During COVID. Sorry, I'm kind of But you're good. That that really messed with me mentally.'cause I was just so used to having this structure. This is how today's gonna look. This is how tomorrow's gonna look. And going from that to nothing. And then on top of the world was closed. Mm-hmm. I was like, oh my God, what am I? Most people are like, I have all this free time. I was like, how am I gonna fill it? Well on that, now I'm gonna interrupt you. I think it's interesting because athletes are viewed as very disciplined people, but like also we are provided that structure. Like there is some degree of like self-discipline, like when you're doing workouts outside of like the normal weights or whatever. But like, I felt the same thing where I felt like I was so disciplined and accomplished and then post-college I was like, I am a mess. I'm so lazy. Like I, I don't know how to do this myself. I feel that. And then I, towards the end of it, I finally got my power back and I was like, I. Don't have to do these lifts anymore because I was still doing our volleyball lifts and some of them I hated. They're pretty, I would never power clean ever again. I'll never hang clean any clean. You will not catch me doing. Do you know what the specific moment I'm thinking of right now? Mm-hmm. Uh, I don't remember. I think it was maybe my freshman year, sophomore year, but we were. Power cleaning. And you like almost got crushed by the bar. Wasn't Yeah, because at times they were throw weight on it and I'm like, this is heavy. Like, I know my limits, I know my limits. You know, Johnny and them were like, just throw the weight. And I'm like, it's heavy, you know? Mm-hmm. I will never do lifts like that again, but I realized I've had to adjust, like there's so many different types of workouts, you know, like with the rise, like Pilates lag. Yeah. Like all stuff like that. I used to feel like if I wasn't drenched in sweat, like balls, the walls and I didn't work out, like going on a walk was not a workout. To me, that was just like, why'd you go? Were you sweating? Like that's how I felt. Yeah. Yeah. And I had to adjust my mindset to be like, no, movement is the, is the key. We're not trying to, you know, work out like I did in college where I'm burning like 500 calories in a workout. Like, that's not how I like to workout anymore. So I've been shifting my mindset to that and being like, okay, I like. Low impact with weight lifting. You know, you don't, it doesn't have to be either or It can be both. Like I don't have to just do this high intensity training. Mm-hmm. And I don't feel like, especially kind of with the cycle sinking, sometimes I'm just tired. Mm-hmm. Or I don't have the time or I don't feel in the gym. I wanna do something at home. So I've been resetting my mind to be like, we're just getting a movement and mobility so you can be, he a healthier person. Mm-hmm. And it is a total random side note, but I also had to disconnect from being a student athlete, like the body type of that. And like the way you lift to have that body versus like when you're not that anymore was really messing with me. Mm-hmm. Because my body obviously changed. I've gotten older, my body shifted. They say you hit another like growth thing at 25 and it definitely hit me. Oh no, it definitely, it definitely hit me. Your metabolisms slows down. But that's been a big shift for me too, that I've been like navigating and I'm trying to set myself up for the rest of my life. Like something that's sustainable versus just right. Falls to the walls all the time because it just wasn't stable for me. Yeah, right. Yeah, I think those are a lot of good points and stuff that I relate to. And we've talked about this privately too, but feel like there's just so many mindset shifts like you were talking about with the exercise, like Yeah, when I was an athlete, I thought walks were stupid. I was like, why did you go on so many dang walks all the time? And now that is like my main form of exercise because I've like allowed myself to view it as like, I just need to move my body. I need to get some sunshine. I don't need to, like you were saying, be drenched in sweat. To feel like I am, whatever. But yeah, it's just so many mindsets and like around food, around just like, yeah. I don't know if you've experienced like mindset shifts or needing to make one about around like your identity or your purpose.'cause I know that's something I really struggled with, like always feeling so accomplished and then you're out in the job market, which kind of sucks post COVID. Like who am I, what do I want to do? Like I've been thinking about volleyball and just like surviving for so long that like. I don't know what I wanna do. I don't even know who I'm anymore. Yeah, that's how I feel right now. Finishing school is kind of like, school has become my identity and now I no longer have it and I'm trying to navigate the job space. It's like been my own challenge because I told you, I'm finally looking up and I'm like, okay, what does Lindsay want for like the rest of my life? And that's like, I was like, I was like, we're still trying to figure that out, but we'll see. You're on your way though. You're making great progress. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. So really briefly on this note, so I know you kind of mentioned already your relationship with your body in terms of like exercise and all that, but how did being an athlete shape your relationship with your body and how did that change when you left the sport? I actually, when I was in athletics, I didn't really care about my physique, if that makes sense. It was just all about like power, like I care about my strength than how I looked. And then once I graduated and I was in. Like the real world where people don't lift like we were lifting and I'm going to like a Planet Fitness type of gym. I was like, oh, I'm doing pretty good in comparison. Yeah, because I feel like when you're in an environment where everybody's lifting that heavy and you're not lifting as heavy, you feel like, dang, I could lift heavier. And then you go into a normal gym where it's just like everyday people who aren't athletes, they're like, oh, like I was doing a lot and it made me appreciate what I was doing in undergrad. Mm-hmm. And one thing I will say I'm forever grateful for being an athlete is I don't have gym intimidation because I know how to lift. Yeah, that's true. And that's something that I feel like it's taken for granted because my friends will talk about how they're intimidated or they don't know what to do. And for me, I have so many workouts in my head, like if something's full, I, I know, oh, I can go do this. It's the same thing. And that's one thing I'm forever grateful about being an athlete.'cause I can go to the gym and feel confident. Mm-hmm. And not worry about if a machine's full, if I can just. Wait around. I'm like, no, I'll just do something else. Like I can do this in the same muscle group. And I think that's not talked about enough. It's like we had own our own personal trainers for like four years straight. Oh yeah. Yeah, you did. That's definitely overlooked.'cause I mean, I feel like you just said that and I'm like, you know what? I've never really appreciated that. But like I have always seen like just tiktoks are people talking about like, oh, I'm so scared to go in the gym. Like it's so intimidating. Like my friend Kenzie. Text me all the time. She's like, I wish you were here because I don't wanna go to the gym by myself. I have no idea what I'm doing. And I'm like, oh my gosh, you can do it. But then also like I've spent a good many hours of my life in the gym. So yeah, that was definitely a pro. As far as like my body image and leaving athletics, it was definitely rough for me because you go from burning like 2000 calories a day and eating enough to maintain that. And then like the food part was the hardest piece for me post-college. Did you feel like you struggled with that too? Yeah, I struggled with the food because I felt like I could eat anything. Back to the grad school thing, I gained all that weight because I was used to being able to eat whatever and then go burn it off because we're working out two people a day sometimes. So that was something I really struggled with. And also cooking, like now that I'm starting to live on my own and branch out, making healthy meals can be challenging sometimes. And that's been, mm-hmm. Or, or tasty healthy meals rather, because I've made some healthy meals. Very good. Yeah, like navigating that's space too, as an adult has been challenging. Yeah. But I've been finding enjoyment in it. It's just like experimenting and like, as I've been more in the kitchen, I kind of get a taste for things. I'm like, oh, this would go good with that. This would go good with that. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, how can I make this healthier? Like, you can use Greek yogurt. As a replacement for heavy, like heavy cream. I didn't know that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, TikTok University told me that. Yes. Oh my gosh, I, that's interesting. I don't know if we like talked about this recently, but I also love cooking now, which is funny because Really because that was very opposite in the past. But yeah, that's like my self-care every night. I like, don't even think about cooking. Was it good? Oh God, I don't know. I don't think it was good. It was like chicken and salad. I remember it was at your apartment. I think I remember that and now like thinking about the meals I make today, I am like, you've definitely grown. Yeah. Well I feel like when you're an athlete, especially a student athlete, like sometimes you just don't learn how to do adult things. Like Yeah, because taking care of day, you had, we had meal plans and then we got fed like almost every day or every game day, like twice a day. So you don't really think about it. Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty rough when like post-college and me and Weston started living together. Honey, we were eating spaghetti every week, sometimes two times a week, some microwave meals. He loved it too. I bet he ate that up. Looking back, I'm like, oh my gosh.'cause now I'm cooking like gourmet meals every night, but yeah. Yeah. Look how far we've come since. Golly. Alright, well let's move on to our next topic, and that's gonna be career curve balls. So. I remember after college you were all in on law school and you had been studying so hard and preparing for this future you envisioned, and I remember it was my wedding week and you were there and you were devastated by your LSAT results. What helped you move to that disappointment and shift your focus?'cause I'm sure that's something a lot of people have experienced with a lot of different things. So you get so focused on a certain outcome and it ends up not being for you. So what helped you move through that? Yeah, I remember that. I was so devastated. But it was one of those, it was like your wedding, so I didn't wanna be No, it was your bachelorette. Your bachelorette. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I can't make this about me. I can't make it about, and I started like busted. I busted on tears, but the shift I had made to cry. Another thing, learning how to regulate my emotions, like it's okay to be sad, it's okay to cross. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And just like have the moment and then like leave it there versus like trying to harbor it in. Mm-hmm. But. I remember after that happened, I decided, okay, I'm still gonna study. I'm gonna try it again. And I think that was the second time I took it when I was with you. I think so, yeah. And I was like, I was like, okay, third time the charm, you know, I, I gotta get third time. And I remember I was studying and things were starting to click for me and I was doing really well in my practice exams. And then it hit me and I was like, oh, I could really go. Like I could pass and go and then I was like, oh, I could really go. Oh. And all of my excitement like shifted and I was like, do I really want to do this? Mm. And I sat with myself and I was like, why am I pursuing this? And I was like, oh, I'm pursuing it. Because having a law degree made me feel valuable. Mm-hmm. It made me feel like I step into the room, I say I'm a lawyer, I take up all the air. Yeah, and like I realized that was very prideful, but in reality I was stressed out like studying and I'm like, if I'm already this stressed out right now before I've even entered the program, imagine how I'll be for three more years. And on top of that, I don't even care about law. Like at my core I like it, it's cool, but it's not a passion of mine. And also I wanted to go at the time into entertainment law, which apparently is really niche and really hard to get into. And it's funny now full circle with my master's degree. Like, I could do like business affairs for agency, which would be the same thing I would've been doing for that, like for a law firm, but for agency. Like I'm handling all of the creative legal stuff. Mm-hmm. Which is crazy. Okay. I wouldn't have known that had I not gone back to my master's, but that was what made me pivot. I was like, I'm not happy. And I always told myself, I'm gonna go back to school. I'm gonna go back to do something I'm passionate about and enjoy. And I'm like, I'm not passionate about this. I'm doing it for like. The views I'm doing it to be able to say I have, I'm a lawyer for my parents to be able to be like, my daughter's a lawyer because it was, it was kind of gassing me up. Not gonna lie. I'm studying, I'm studying to be a lawyer, you know, people are like, oh my God, really? I'm like, yeah, yeah, I am. I'm nice to meet you. What do you do? Like, like, hi, I'm Lindsay. I'm training to be a lawyer. Yeah. That's all you need to know. That's all you need to know. Yeah. And I just. Sat with myself and I'm like, no, like I'm not happy, and you don't have to keep doing this and you can pivot at any time. That's great. That's, that's definitely a hallmark of maturity and like you knowing yourself enough to be able to come to that realization before you're like thousands of dollars of debt down the drain. Exactly. High school hating and All the time. All the time. And then you get so far into it, you're like, I can't turn back now. I guess I'm just gonna have to do this. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So I feel like there's so many people that get into similar fields, whether it's being like a doctor or a lawyer. Mm-hmm. Something like that. Like just for the prestige. And because people do have those reactions. They're like, oh, you're a doctor. Oh my gosh, you're a lawyer. Like all those things. And we're such like mimetic beings and we're so influenced by what people want around us that we kind of convince ourselves that we want the same things because we like how it looks on them or whatever it is. So, gosh, I feel like that happens to so many people and they may not even realize it. So good on you for. Getting out of there and realizing that that's not what you want. Did you take it a third time or you said, I'm not even gonna take it another time? No, I didn't take it a third time. Once I had good for ation, I was like, I'm doing something else. And it made me realize I want the lifestyle that I see lawyers have, but can make money in other ways. It doesn't have to be this. Mm-hmm. And also when I look at their lifestyle, but how much they're working, it's like. They're working probably like 9,000 hours a week if they go to like big law. Oh yeah. And I have all this money, but I can't use it. I can't do anything with my life. So I was like, I would rather figure out a different way to make the same impact and same money where I still have my life. You know? That was another thing for me. I was like, I want to be able to be around whenever I have like a family. And not like mom's working again, like all day, all night. I was gonna go in big law if I went and that's how their life is, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Zero work life balance. Yeah. So yeah, that, that's great. Can you talk about the reality of letting go of a dream that no longer serves you, even when your identity might have been tied to it? The one thing I will say is I think you should master the pivot and that your identity shouldn't be a tied to like one thing. Mm-hmm. Um, especially not a like worldly thing. And you know, I'm a believer and I feel if your identity's gonna be in anything, it should be in God, but yeah. you know, each their own. But I think having an identity within a one thing, like even that's something I struggle with. Like my identity was in volleyball, my identity was in school. But then once those things are no longer there, you feel so lost. Yeah. So that's something that I would definitely say to people. Yeah. Like, that reminds me of a book we covered pretty early on in the podcast, the Power of Now, and essentially it's about like how we're. Associating too closely with our thoughts and our, like our outwardly identities. So like, we'll say, I'm this person's mom. I'm this person's best friend. I'm a doctor, I'm this, this, that, and it's like, is that really you though, or is that just what you do? Mm-hmm. Like, can we just be, do we have to be this person's X, Y, and Z? Do we have to have this job or these material things when they're like, aren't we just good enough? Like as we are as very unique individuals, so, mm-hmm. That's always stuck with me since then. And I, I feel like post athletics and realizing how tied my identity was to that, and then all this, like the suffering I went through to like get out of that mindset. Mm-hmm. It's definitely good to watch what you tie yourself to in the future. Mm-hmm. And I love what you said about the pivot, because that's like Ronnie's favorite word. Yes. Mastering the pivot. I love it. I love that it didn't fail. You just pivoted. That's what I tell you. Yes. I just pivoted, you know. W Well, power of the Pivot, baby. I'm sorry, I missed, can you remind our audience what your Master's is in? Yeah. My master's is in advertising, well, technically it's communications and information with a advertising emphasis. Ooh, we let see, Like web design, social media, none of that or Yeah, it, that's encompassing in it. Okay. It can, it can be web campaigns. Like ad campaigns. Okay. Social media. I'm very open. I'm currently looking for a job if anyone's hiring. Okay. Okay. That's, we'll put that plug in for you. well, that is so awesome. I'll tell you as, an older generation. Your life is so fluid that you're gonna have these, crises of belief is what I, I kind of call'em, you know, throughout your life. Both of you guys have, have done a lot of inner work. What amazes me so much is the, The emotional maturity that you guys have, and some of the friends that I know that are even older than me, family members, whatever, have never gotten to that point. And it's so sad. Uh, male, Robin says that most people have the emotional capacity of an 8-year-old. That's pretty true and it's a hundred percent true, but yes. I know you're gonna be a Boston whatever you go after, it's heck, it's, you will crush it. Thank you. Well, on your master's degree note A, what made you pursue the path of advertising and how does it align with the life that you're building for your future? Yeah, so I started in business when I graduated from undergrad, and I had a marketing emphasis, so I had a few marketing ad PR type of classes, and I had one class that was like an ad campaign class, and all we did was talk about ads. And at the time I didn't know you could work in that field. I thought I could go work for marketing for like, I don't know, like bush baked beans. But yeah, that was so random. That is in Tennessee. That's in Tennessee. That's why you know that girl I saw on the wedding. See Dolly. That's only your way to see Dolly. Oh my. At Dollywood, people put marketing PR and ad in the same bucket, and that's how I viewed it at first. So I thought if I went to view these marketing jobs, I would be doing what I'm looking for now. And it's not true a lot of marketing jobs or sales. So I'm like, oh, I'm looking for like an agency that's building out campaigns specifically for. TV or whether it's social media, whatever compartment it is. Mm-hmm. So that's kind of what made me look more into it. I remember I was actually watching a blog and this girl was talking about getting her master's in public relations and ad and I was like, you can do that because on a business note, they always tell you, go get your MBA. It's like, if you're gonna go back to school for master's, it's MBA or nothing. So I don't know that there is, I could go get it in journalism or I could go get it. And ad or whatever. I didn't know that. So I remember I looked it up and I was like, I wonder if UTK has one?'cause I know Carson Neuman doesn't. So I was like, let me look it up. No. And I saw it and I was like, oh my God. And I remember I applied and I got in like the first round and that's when I knew like, this is where I need to be. Because like back to the law school thing, I feel like what's meant for you shouldn't be that hard. Like hard. The door closing so hard on me and how it was making me feel. And this was the first time when I applied. I felt like I was being myself authentically. My paper was actually about DEI within the ad space. And I remember I felt so vulnerable submitting it because I'm like, they rejected, they're rejecting me. Like that's how I felt by how much I put into it. And when I got accepted I was like, oh my God. Like this is where I'm supposed to be.'cause I didn't apply to any other school. I said, you know, I'm gonna apply to UTK. If I don't get in, I'll figure something else out. And wow. I, yeah. Yeah, that was probably such a good moment for you, especially after dealing with all the law school stuff. Yeah, the, the COVID and the law school stuff. And then, yeah, it was just quite the journey to get to where I am today, but I wouldn't be who I am without it, like with all the things that have happened, so. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, I am so proud of you. You're killing it. Yes. Alright, so last segment before we get to our closing. So I know you've talked a lot about how much pride you take in being an educated black woman today. I think your post on like around around when you graduated, I think it said only like 9% of black women have their masters. Is that right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So can you just talk a little bit more about what that means to you and how has that identity shaped how you show up in the world? Mm-hmm. Yeah, it means a lot to me. Um, like I said, I have a passion for DEI and a really big passion for representation because even within my space right now, there aren't a lot of people that look like me. And in the ad world, there's not a lot of people who look like me, but they're marketing to people who look like me. And even this past summer, I had an internship and we were talking through some cultural stuff and someone was, we're talking about wigs and mind you mm-hmm. I'm the only one in this room that had, that knew about wigs, knew how they worked, all this stuff. And I remember these girls were talking about all these ideas of what they wanted to do with it. And I'm like, this isn't culturally relevant. Like the person who wears a wig would never do these things. Yeah. Or would or would never like buy into this. Yeah. And that's when it hit me. I was like, oh, this is how I can create impact in my own way by sharing my own experience. Yes. That's so cool. I feel like I was chasing d the role and then I got advice from someone and they were like, you can have DEI wherever you are. Like you are. Yes. DI like, you don't need the title. Right. So like you share your experience and share. Mm-hmm. And like that will be enough. And I've kind of led with that. And that's why it's so impactful for me to have my masters because there aren't a lot of like black women who have their masters mm-hmm. That look like me. Especially not in the ad PR space, but yet mm-hmm we're severely saturating the market that we're like targeting, so. Oh, wow. Yeah. I have one Request I, I want white women to be as free in wearing wigs. I want to be a platinum blonde, long hair, something. Oh my God. I want to bring wigs to the white people. Seriously, I think it's so freaking awesome that you know, you can have long hair one day. You can have it short. The other, you can have it natural. We are just. We don't have that, right? Mm-hmm. Look, I'll take you to the wig store and I would love to Platinum. Yes. So especially being a black woman, I feel like hair is an expression. So. I like, I've always had my hair in any type of style. I just think it's like, that's like me, like I just love hair as much as I love fashion. And so, oh my gosh, well be ready because, you're probably gonna be very good in that world of helping connect the culture with the ad. Mm-hmm. And then as it grows, you're educating people. For the next thing you know. Yeah. This, this special, like there's a lot of money in that kind of stuff, like the special tape and the, the little caps that you wear under'em. And I, I'm like, how does that, how do, how can't even see the wig. I, yeah. There is definitely like a lot of money in it and I didn't realize that when I went into it. Ooh. Um. And the one thing I love about the ad pr space is it's so freeing. I feel like business school is very much like you show up, you wear a, a, a gray suit, white button down and that's it. Mm-hmm. This is like, the ad space is like, show your personality. And that was the adjustment for me. I was like, what? Because usually in business school it's like they ask you this, you say this, you do that, they do this. Yeah. Versus that is, is like, no, we want you to be like yourself.'cause they think being weird is like, that's how you make good content. Yeah. Being yourself authentically. And that's one thing I love. Being in this space. Oh, yeah. It's definitely not the same in a lot of other careers. Like being a lawyer. Yeah. Or, yeah, like anything else. So yeah, that, that part's really fun. Circling back to your original answer, I think it's great that you. Or like filling that hole because you realize there's not of other black women in this industry and people are giving their opinions and they're running campaigns when like they may not know or they might, they might not understand and you're just like saying like, okay, this is how I make an impact right here and right now. Mm-hmm. So I love that. That's really awesome. We're gonna get to our second to last question. What would you wanna say to younger black girls navigating their twenties just maybe twenties in general, but also maybe sports pressure to succeed, all of that stuff. If you could speak to them right now, what would you wanna say? I would say everything you want is on the other side of fear. my biggest thing the past few years is I'm gonna do it scared. Regardless. And that has landed me so many opportunities. Um, I remember my first time I, well, it was small, it was like, do I wanna go with my friends? Because I was having, like, I was feeling anxious and I was like, do you wanna go out? Do I not? And I was like, I'm gonna go. Cool. Then I met like someone I'm really close with now. And then I had another moment where we had a New York trip for school where it was like a, it was like a networking trip. And I remember the day be the two days before I was talking to my parents, like, I don't think I should go. I just feel so anxious. Like, I don't know anyone. I don't know my roommate. I don't know who I'm flying with. And literally from that internship, I met so many amazing people. I met this lady who connected me with someone else that I ended up getting a scholarship. I ended up connecting with someone who landed me an internship that summer. And I just feel like every time I've been scared and done it anyways in a safe, in a safe way, I've always reap the benefit of it. So that's something I would say is like not being afraid to like be seen trying. Mm-hmm. And that even though you're scared, it's probably'cause you're meant to be there. And I, it's called like the devil trying to keep you out. Yeah. That's what you're meant to have. And it's making you feel anxious. He's making you feel like you can't, you're not enough in reality. Like you're mm-hmm. You've been enough. Yep. So that's what I would definitely say to someone. Yeah. That's very profound, wise advice. I love that. It's just getting outta your comfort zone.'cause you know, I think a lot of times, and as someone that's like chronically in my head, I. Like will talk myself out of certain things or I'll talk myself into anxiety so I can just not do things. Mm-hmm. And then you like flash forward and you're like, how much stuff did I miss out on? Like what opportunities did I miss? Like what experiences did I miss people? Did I miss meeting mm-hmm. Okay, so for our closing, I don't know if you watched any of our episodes, but we do what we call what she said. So Lindsay, what is a piece of advice or a mindset that's helped carry you through this chapter of becoming? Oh, okay. I've been thinking about this one. I saw it and I was like, I need, I need something good. That's really helped me and something that's really helped pushed me through is I'll always tell myself, if not this, then it's something better. And anytime I've gotten a rejection letter or things haven't worked out, I'm like, if not this, it's something better. I'm supposed to be somewhere better. That's the only reason this didn't work out, and that's helped me deal with the disappointment of the no. Mm-hmm.'cause it can get hard, especially like for instance, right now I get more rejection letters. I do acceptance'cause I'm mm-hmm. Applying to a lot of jobs when I was applying to internships. Mm-hmm. You know, I applied to like 10, 15 and I only heard back from like one or two that I got offered from. But that's all you need. Like you only need one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You need one. Yes. Yeah. Just reframing failure. Especially like when a lot of stuff we talked about today, like you tie your identity to it or you become so fixated on like the life you'll have once you acquire the certain thing. Yeah. And for someone who like attaches themselves to achievement, I feel like you have to learn how to redefine failure.'cause you feel like you failed. Mm-hmm. And that's where I, I was starting to feel like I'm a failure. I'm like, no, like you just, they just don't want you for whatever reason. It could be because they just knew someone. It doesn't have to be you specific, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I was looking for a job for months and months and months. That's a grind and golly. Yeah. Well the job market right now sucks, so I was applying to like. At least 10 jobs a day and usually not hearing back. But I would almost always get rejected and oh my gosh, that was so hard. Like day after day, it was just like, no, no, no, no, no. But I, I love that mantra of like, if it's not this, then it's something better. Mm-hmm. Because I try and trust in like, God has a plan and he'll put me where I'm supposed to be when I'm needed there. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But yeah, it's, it's hard, but I like that just real short and simple mantra. That's good. Yeah. That's awesome. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you so much. You're welcome. I just knew you were gonna have some absolute bombs. Bombs to drop. Oh my gosh. It was so good. It was so good. And, and you guys, be watching out'cause this girl's getting ready to. Power on I I know it. I am speaking that into existence. You are in the perfect spot, perfect head space, perfect emotional space. You know, sounds like you don't have a lot of baggage of people that you're having to take care of and such, so sky's the limit. Hear that years ago. Good for you girl, you to be in college. It was a different story. Right? Right. We. Well, I'm so happy that we are not the same people we were in college. And Amen. Like I said, I'm so proud of you, not just for all the like education and all those things you're accomplishing, but like just, I think in this interview you dropped so many insightful downloads that reflect how much self love and how much inner work you've done. Yeah. I'm excited for people to listen to this interview for sure. Yes, yes. Awesome. Okay, well, the way we end our episode. I gotta get my microphone outta the way'cause I'll whack it. We'll do like 3, 2, 1, and we'll go like, and that's, that's the t and we do a high five. So do I cover my here to partake? Do I cover my thing? I mean, you can just high five it, I mean, yeah. Okay. That's, that's cute. Don't, don't think about it too much. Alright. 3, 2, 1. And, and that's, that's the, the tea.