Generational Tea

No BS, Just Therapy | A Real Talk Episode on Anxiety with Becca Upton

• Kaina | Ronnie • Season 1 • Episode 29

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In this refreshingly honest episode, we’re joined by UK-based anxiety therapist Becca Upton—a boss woman who skips the fluff and dives straight into the real work of healing. Becca shares her expert insight on anxiety, chronic overthinking, and why most of us are way too hard on ourselves. (Spoiler alert: that critical voice in your head? It’s not the truth.) Together, we explore how our early attachment experiences, thought patterns, and survival responses shape the way we deal with stress, and how we can finally start to rewrite those patterns with compassion and clarity. Becca also walks us through the different therapeutic approaches she uses—and how they show up in real-life conversations, not just clinical textbooks. We also talk generational differences in mental health stigma, and what it’s like navigating anxiety in a society that still praises burnout and emotional suppression. Plus, Becca offers tangible tools to quiet your inner critic and start showing up as your full, human, healing self.

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Kaina G:

really excited to get your insights today. So welcome everybody to Generational Tea and welcome Becca. All the way from Where in Britain did you say you're from? Ham, Ingham. Like Robin Hood, if you know Robin Hood. That's, yeah, that's, that's what people, that's helpful. Thank you. Alright, well just so the listeners can get to know you, do you just want to give them a quick background on. And I guess just who you are, what you like to do, and your qualifications as a therapist before we dive into the really good questions.

Becca:

Yeah. So obviously I'm Becca. I am the no BS therapist. I'm try to always be a like realistic, honest kind of person. I think a lot of wellbeing stuff out there online now can be very like fluffy and cheesy and over the top. And like in the real world, people don't have time to be doing like an hour of journaling every night and going out for a walk for an hour every day and stuff like that. So I try and be a bit more in the real world kind of thing. I'm quite sweary obviously I won't be swearing today, but generally I'm swearing a lot and that's just what I'm like. And yeah, I've got a master's in counseling and psychotherapy, integrative counseling and psychotherapy. So that was a three year course that I did. And yeah, I've been, like I said, uh, qualified for about nine, 10 months now, so, yeah. Nice.

Kaina G:

You're almost at your one year anniversary. Yeah. That's so exciting. I'm curious what made you wanna get into therapy specifically? And also kind of how you were led to develop your, like no BS brand, because I love it, we need more of that every day, but I want to hear like how you kind of got on this journey.

Becca:

So specifically on the therapy side of things, it's definitely something that took a while to come through. Like I always wanted to be in a job that was helping people and that was people facing. But I just like, I kind of went through, I recycled through a few ideas when I was younger. Um, so I thought about maybe being a primary school teacher'cause my mum was one, but then I was like. I don't really want to like, have to like wrangle kids and make them behave and stuff. That's not really my vibe. So I said, okay, maybe not that. And then I got really into like performing arts in like my late teens, and considered being like a performer of some kind. But then I was like, oh, I don't really wanna be like touring around the country or like unsure of work and stuff like that. So we just kind of left that. And then in the UK we do what we call A Levels. So the last two years before uni and you have to pick, we used to have to pick four options. So I'd picked my first three and I didn't know what to pick for my fourth, so I was like, I'll just go with psychology. It seems interesting, I'll just go for it. So this was when I was like 16. and then took it and really enjoyed it in the first year and ended up actually dropping. You like drop one. And just go with three before you go into uni and actually ended up dropping one of the other topics, not psychology. Nice. And just found it so, so interesting how our brains work. And then yeah, just kind of searched up how do I find a job using psychology but helping people. And it said counseling and therapy and actually that seemed to make a lot of sense in my mind. And then from there I did psychology undergrad. I knew I'd have to do more stuff. I took two years out'cause I'd had enough of education for a while. I just needed a break. And then I did my three year masters. And that wrapped about a year ago. Um, so yeah, I think the therapy stuff makes sense now. Um, yeah. But it took a bit of a while to get to, And then, yeah, on the no BS side of things, I think I've always been this way as a person kind of thing. I've always been a, like, no drama or gossip and like, just straightforward kind of person. But when you're first practicing with clients in placement, it's like, oh, I've gotta be super professional. And to you that means like blank slate. And like I'm wearing all the smart clothes and like I, I can't really show much of myself or say anything about myself and stuff like that. And then over time, I would start to say like, in a first session. Oh, I sometimes swear a bit in sessions. Are you okay with that? And I never had anyone say no, but I was like, but if anyone does say no, I've then gotta keep track of who I can and can't swear in sessions with, and there's already a million things that you have to keep track of in session anyway. So then I was like, okay, let's just say it. And luckily I was at a placement where there were like quite a few people there, so if someone didn't want me, they could just be like referred to someone else. and again, no one ever said that it was a problem. Most people will say either, no, it's fine. I'm not bothered about it. Or they'll say, oh good, that means I can swear to, and they actually like it kind of thing. Yeah. So it's helpful for them. But even then, yeah, I just cycled through a few ideas and I was kind of writing like directories and stuff online and then a phrase kept coming up of like, no fluff, no nonsense, no bs. And then from there it just like seemed to make sense. And yes, since then I've been an OBS therapist.

Kaina G:

That's awesome. from what I can tell about your personality, it definitely fits and well. I just love that.'cause in my experience with therapy, it's always been a lot easier for me to open up to somebody when I feel like they're more personal and more accessible on that level. And I would love it if my therapist like swear like a sailor. I feel like that would bring an element of levity to the therapy that would actually help me. But yeah, I, I really do think that's so cool. And I know you're just starting on your journey, but I feel like this is gonna resonate with a lot of people, so that's really awesome. Yeah,

Becca:

yeah, definitely. I think you have an idea of a therapist and it's normally like a 60-year-old woman in a really smart outfit and there's the clipboard and the glasses and the couch and stuff and yeah, I would never want to go to something like that myself. So it's kind of the kind of person that I would also want to go to as well, like I said, so yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Ronnie G:

Yeah. So, you actually work with a lot of chronic worriers and overthinkers. Was that ever you at one point?

Becca:

In some senses, yes. I think for me, the overthinking and the worrying side of things, yes. I think, I've don't think I've ever had anxiety to a, like a potentially diagnosable level. Mm-hmm. But I would say I've kind of been a different version of it where I've definitely had like a depressive episode. Again, wasn't diagnosed, but looking back on it, it was. But definitely a lot of the signs have been there from the start. Like for me. If I had a, something in my mind, the plan had to be followed, and if it didn't go following that, then I would get really anxious and worried and stuff like that. Like there's an idea in my mind of me and my partner, were dog sitting for a friend who lived elsewhere, lived a couple of hours away, and we were gonna get the bus into the city that day and just explore and stuff. And we didn't get on the right bus like we had, oh yeah, we'll get on this one at this time. And then I didn't know if it was the right one to get on or not when it arrived. So I was like, oh no, let's not get on it. Let's wait a sec. And we weren't going to anything. We didn't have anything booked in. We weren't gonna be late for anything. We were just going into town for the day. But still, I was like, oh my God, that was the one we were supposed to get on. Oh my God, we're gonna be late now. And And my partner was like, but there's another one in 20 minutes. We're just. Wait for the next one, but in my mind it was like, oh, but we've missed it. Like we didn't follow the plan kind of thing. So that has always been a bit of a thing for me. And then as well in like my masters going through the therapy training, you realize a lot about yourself as well. And I realized I have quite a big thing around like achievement and success and grades and stuff like that. Where it wasn't like disastrous for me. Again, I wasn't having like anxiety attacks or panic attacks necessarily, but if I didn't get the grade that I wanted, it would be really, really difficult. And my expectation of like doing the bare minimum for an assignment was actually like. Enough to get top marks, but in my mind it was like the bare minimum.

Kaina G:

Yeah.

Becca:

But I've been able to work on it a little bit. And one of the things that really helped me when I was studying was I would never tell people my actual grade after a while because then they would have a judgment on it, and that was then in like their hands. So instead of saying the actual number, I would then just say I was happy with it, or I wasn't happy with it, or it was what I expected, or something like that. And just how I felt about it, because then that becomes the most important thing, not the judgment of someone else and a number kind of thing. Yeah. So yeah, it's something that I'm actively working on still and I've had to work on, but I, I think that's part of it that helps. I have been in that place and I know how your brain goes to these crazy, insane places, but you know that it's not real and you know that it isn't like a possibility that will happen. But still in that moment it feels completely real and like it could happen and like the world is gonna end basically. So. Mm-hmm. I know how frustrating it can be as well of like, I know that's not gonna happen, but my brain genuinely thinks it's a possibility at the same time, so Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a big help for people too.

Kaina G:

Yeah. I definitely struggle with like a lot of stuff that you just talked about and catastrophizing things in the moment and stuff like that. And I really do feel like, and we talk a lot about how things have changed over generations on this podcast. It's like tea we've been talking a lot about like social media and tech and just like really, like younger generations like Gen Z, millennials. And I really do feel like we're like worrying and overthinking way more than any other generation. And I feel like it kind of makes sense in that way because like with all this. Technology and social media, like we're, we're more connected than ever, but really we're just like more overloaded with information more than ever. Mm-hmm. And I kind of feel like navigating that information, at least like for me specifically, I feel like that's kind of fed into like my overthinking and my chronic worrying is'cause there's so much happening and I'm worrying about all this and X, Y, and Z. It's just'cause we're processing so much information every day. So I really do feel like there's a, I guess a trend that people are more in their heads than ever and worried more than ever and overthinking more than ever, which makes sense. Would you agree with that?

Becca:

Yeah, absolutely. I think part of it is that sense of like, whatever you experience your brain takes as evidence, right? And obviously most of the time online you only see the positive side of things. So your brain will just see all that stuff and subtly think, well, everyone's doing really well and really positively. And obviously every single day of my life isn't always positive. I have good days and bad days, so. It must mean that I'm behind everyone else or everyone's doing so much better than me or whatever else. When in reality you are just seeing any part of it, but your brain in a really subtle, like subconscious way sees that information in a different way. So yeah, it's this idea of like, no matter what I do, I'm always gonna be behind someone else. Yeah. And so I think it then comes from a point of, it sounds very cheesy and I don't like to say it, but it's the idea of just like doing your own thing'cause no matter what happens, your brain's gonna find a way to make it negative. So it's okay, you're just gonna have to accept it that people are gonna be different. It doesn't matter what you change about yourself, but there's always gonna be something that you don't like. So it's gonna be tough sometimes, but at least I'm doing my own thing and that's a bit easier kind of

Kaina G:

thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's very true. We talk a lot about how social media is just like people's highlight reels, and then we compare that to like the. The lows of our lives. Yes. And then we're wondering why we have all these thoughts.

Becca:

Yes, absolutely.

Kaina G:

Yeah. So I know you're trained in multiple therapeutic styles and I'll let you expand on those if you want to. So I know like cognitive behavioral therapy and then I abbreviated a bunch of other ones, but I forgot what they stand for. But you're very well trained in a lot of different styles. So can you walk through how you maybe blend these together or how you maybe focus on individual ones based on a client. Just talk to us about how you blend those together when you're working with clients.

Becca:

So there's four types. A lot of people will have heard of CBT. And then there's person centered, which is a bit more about like identity and like client first kind of thing and stuff like that. Attachment, which we've probably heard of or relationships and stuff. Mm-hmm. And then compassion focused, which is like. Evolutionary biological, survivalist based, but has that compassion element as well. And so a lot of those are kind of opposite in their ways of doing things. Mm-hmm. But I think that's really helpful. So for example, like the person centered side of things, just how I work with a client day to day. Like I always think the client knows themself the best. So I will never ever say, like if a client says, oh, I've been struggling with this thing, I dunno why, I will never say, oh, that's because of this thing that happened to you when you were younger or anything like that. I can ask questions in that like area, but I will never say, this is the reason why I want them to work out the reason why for themself.'cause I might not be right for a start. Like something can be the case for a million different reasons, but also it's more meaningful if they come to that realization because I want to eventually get to a point where. They don't need therapy anymore because they've learned the skills from therapy and they can do it for themself. So I want them to come to these realizations. So that's a really key part of like the person centered side of things is mm-hmm. I don't assume that I know better. I see us as like an equal partnership kind of thing. Yeah. Um, so that's really key. I think CB t's really helpful in like the theory and the techniques, but I think the structure is something that I've kind of removed and done away with.'cause it's the idea of, it's like very formal and structured and it's only like six to 12 sessions and there's homework. I like the idea of homework.'cause you need to apply to that side of sessions. Um, but equally it's this idea of like, it shouldn't be rushed kind of thing. Um mm-hmm. Like if someone comes in and they've had an awful week and they just need to talk about that week, well then we've put the whole schedule off and now we can't fit everything that we want to. But then equally, if we push through that session and go for the topic that we originally gonna talk about, they're gonna be distracted and they're not gonna be able to concentrate and not actually gonna get benefit out of it. It is very individualized and every session is very different and it is different with every client as well. Mm-hmm. And I think that's a really key thing about my,, style is. Whenever a client comes into a session, I might have an idea of something we can go through that day. But I will always ask them at the start what they wanna do. So I will say like, is there something from the week that you just wanna process? Is there a particular topic you wanna look at today? Or do you wanna look at the list? And I always have a list of like ongoing things of like theories and stuff we can look at that I think would be helpful.'cause sometimes you've had a rough week and you just want to talk it out. Other times you're like, no, I've had a really good week. I've got some motivation. I want to get my teeth into something. And so, and sometimes you're like, well I dunno what to talk about today'cause I've not had a bad week kind of thing. So yeah, I think it's just taking the client as they come through the door kind of thing. Um, yeah, and just completely blending it and basically just taking the bits that I like from each one and using those, is yeah, really helpful. And then I'll do a little review like every six to 10 sessions and see like, do we wanna do a bit more of this or that or like, do you need me to be more challenging or whatever. And yeah, just kind of taken it go, we roll with the punches kind of thing, so. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Have you ever

Kaina G:

done any of somatic therapy?

Becca:

I've not, but I'm honestly interested in like every therapeutic approach. When I hear stuff about them, I'm like, oh, I would kind of like to do some training in that. Like honestly all of them. So yeah, I think it does sound really, really cool. Really, really interesting. I mean, I've got plenty of time ahead of me, so maybe it's something that will come in later in my career. But it does sound really interesting that like body mind connection side of things.

Kaina G:

Yeah. I've been hearing a lot about it on, I'm on like therapy, TikTok, so I see all kinds of stuff, but I've been hearing a lot of people and I feel like I kind of identify with those that like intellectualize their emotions to process them instead of like actually feeling them in my body. Mm. And I've been wanting to get back into therapy so I definitely wanna find someone that's trained in that so I can try it.'cause I've heard it can do wonders for people that have trouble dissociating from their body or intellectualizing their emotions. So I was just curious if you've ever done it or tried it.

Becca:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's definitely interesting. I just like when new stuff comes out'cause it means that there should be something, hopefully for everyone. And if they've tried something and it's not quite work, well that's okay. We can try something else kind of thing. So I love like, alternative stuff of like drama therapy and dance therapy and, and stuff like that.'cause like you say, like wording and intellectualizing is for some people, but it's not for others. So yeah, I do find all of that stuff. Very, very cool.

Ronnie G:

Yeah, so you've talked, about different approaches to your therapy and so Do you have any, suggestions to people that can begin to link their emotions and behaviors, in their own life, if they're a listener? Just to kind of get the ball rolling a little bit, do you have any suggestions? Obviously they need therapy. We all do, but in the meantime, is there something that we could be working on personally while we're waiting to find that therapist or, you know, adjusting to a new therapist, those kind of things. Can you expound on that?

Becca:

Definitely. Yeah. So I think one of the key things I notice when clients come in is some people have a lot of self-awareness and some people don't. And so if they don't, that's always the thing that we start first.'cause if you don't know much about the problem, then we, we can't try and work on it, right? So just building awareness and understanding of yourself is really, really key. And like you said, like. How do I notice these links? Just notice them. So like some people are like, just keep it like internally in your mind. Some people wanna like write it down in a note in their phone or in a like more formally in a journal or something. But just in anything that, any, anything you wanna work on or any situations that really impact you or really impact those around you or any behaviors you wanna work on. Just notice in that moment, what was I feeling, what was I thinking and what was happening in my body as well. Like the physical sensations and like the thoughts can be like the wording of it, the content. It can be also how fast your brain was going or like the tone of voice that was in your mind kind of thing. Obviously the emotions, it's like how intense they were, positive or negative, what like energy level it was. And then obviously physical stuff is like your breathing and your heart rate, motivation, energy, feelings in your stomach, all that kind of stuff. If we literally just have some kind of log of like, okay, these are all the things I felt in that moment. And then it might be a completely unrelated scenario. You might notice similar things, thoughts, feelings, and physical, but they're completely unrelated. And it's because it might be coming from the same like core deep down thing, but it's just being shown in a different situation. So if you have that kind of info, I mean your therapist will love you for already having that info as you go in kind of thing. But yeah, even just stuff like that. Even if you don't ever work out why you're feeling that way. Even just knowing, oh, okay, last time when I felt like this, it was really tough for a while and it was stayed around for like a day. So I just need to be more like gentle myself for the next day until it eases off. But at least I've got that like preparation in my mind that it will go away eventually. Or like, okay, I just need to get through the first like minute and then it kind of goes away. Like. Even just something like that is still helpful. Just having that like awareness and understanding is a really, really helpful one. Um, so yeah, just notice and keep some kind of notes somewhere and see if there's any links really.

Kaina G:

Yeah. Self-awareness is key. So I know you were talking about attachment theory and I mean, I just remember from my psychology studies in college, like how big attachment is. So can you talk a little bit about what role attachment theory plays in either adult anxiety or relationships in general or. Just really adult life in general?

Becca:

Mm. I think anxiety can definitely come from attachment in certain cases. Obviously it's not like the only reason, but I think in some cases it's that idea of like if someone is quite inconsistent with you or you dunno what to expect from them, or they're only ever negative with you or whatever, that is gonna worry you whenever you have to like say something to them or just be around them if they're not someone in your home or whatever. So I think that just makes sense in my mind. Like obviously if you don't dunno what to expect, you're gonna be worried about it kind of thing, at least some of the time. But even in like relationships in general, like attachment theory is literally just like, it's the idea that most of us want to be around people because of that like evolutionary, like safety and numbers kind of thing. So we want to make those relationships so even mm-hmm. If it's a bit problematic or dysfunctional. For us, there's a driver underneath that's like, but it's still worth it for me to have this relationship to be around people generally because I feel more safe on a basic, fundamental level. Yeah. Um, but it's the idea that like any major relationship can impact how you think a relationship should be done. It kind of makes like a, in your brain, like a roadmap or like a structure of how you're supposed to interact with this person. And then sometimes that can play onto other people. So it's the idea of like, if you go to someone and they're always like attentive and all that kind of stuff, you might assume that everyone in the world is gonna be like that, but we know some people aren't and some people can't be or whatever. So then that might affect things. So it might not even be the relationship itself that's the problematic or difficult bit it might be, oh, that set my expectations, and then other people can't live up to that, or the world can't live up to that. So. There's like 1,000,001 different ways that attachment can Yeah. Affect things both on an individual level as well as in that like interaction level as well.

Kaina G:

Yeah, that, that definitely makes a lot of sense. I like what you said at the beginning, and I, I think it's true that like if there's a void in communication or a void and consistency, like we tend to be very negative, especially if we have like anxious avoidant attachment style or stuff like that. We're always gonna assume the worst when someone's not being very communicative or like always being consistent with us. So it's definitely good to be aware of which at attachment style you have, I know I'm more of an anxious avoidant type and realizing that about myself has been like, oh. That's why I did that. Yes. So it's definitely good.

Becca:

Yeah, I mean, I have slightly different attachments with different groups as well, and I think that's worth considering. I, with particular friends, I'm a bit more anxious, whereas certain friends, I'm more secure. Um, which again, is a reflection of what those relationships are like or what those people are like. Right. So even just being aware of that, of like, in certain situations, if I'm meeting up with someone, if it's for particular people, I'm messaging them like, oh, I'm setting off now, or I'm five minutes away, where are you sat? Just to make sure that they're actually coming and they're gonna be there, they're gonna be on time or whatever. Whereas for other people, I just know they're gonna be there and I don't really have to check up on it or whatever. Or we're meeting somewhere beforehand or whatever. So. Yeah, even stuff like that is like, I would definitely react differently with different friends and stuff.

Kaina G:

Yeah. Yeah. I really like that example. That's a great like day to day example of it.

Ronnie G:

It really is. So another therapy module that you use or mode is, um, compassion focus therapy. Sounds like something that we all need. What are some common barriers to self-compassion, especially for young adults today? Is there something specifically that you're seeing trending?

Becca:

compassion focus, like I said before, is really interesting'cause it has that biological. Basis to the theory and kind of builds on that. So I think the obvious one is social media. Obviously we talked about it before, but it's this idea that like you are behind. And again, this evolutionary thing is you don't wanna upset the group because you don't wanna get kicked out of the group because then you're not as likely to survive. Mm-hmm. So you don't want to stick your head above the parapet kind of thing. You don't wanna stand out. But then being aware of like, oh, I feel like I'm really behind on everyone else kind of thing. Because again, this person's got married and then this person's got a home, and then this person's got their dream job and this person over here has had a kid, well, individually, they might not have achieved everything they want to in their life, but collectively your mind is going well, everyone's doing everything right. Yeah. So again, it's that idea of, well, I feel so behind everything. And again, it's like, okay, but is that what you actually want? Like, I think about my sister, my sister's four and a half years older than me, and she by this age was married in like a stable job, had I think one of her daughters, and then got pregnant a few years after. That is not my vibe at all. I do not want that. I don't wanna, I mean, me and my partner have said we're not gonna have kids anyway, but even if we wanted them, I would not be wanting them at this age. I wanna like explore my job for a while and, and get into that kind of stuff. So I'm like, well, that's not my criteria for living. Obviously I'm very fortunate that my parents are very chill about this kind of stuff and don't have those big expectations. And actually they themselves never got married. They always found just like other ways that they wanted to spend the money, like putting down a deposit for a house and stuff. So like they've still together, they've been together 35 years, but they just didn't ever really want to get married. So I think that helps that there isn't that expectation there. But yeah, it's this idea of like, you are often living against someone else's criteria and it's like, is that actually gonna make me feel better? Is that actually gonna make me happy? And like me having kids and getting married, no way is that gonna make me happy at all. But being in this career and in my dream job really is. So I think that's part of it. Social media will make us feel like we're behind, but sometimes it will even give us expectations and criteria that we don't even wanna follow. And it can be well-meaning stuff, but like family members will say, when are you guys getting married? When are you guys gonna have kids? Or like, my cousin a couple of years back got engaged and they were like, oh you, you two are gonna be next. And I was like, no, we are not. No. So I think that's part of it of like they mean well, but in their head that's just the way you live your life. You go through these stages and it again, it's very subtly puddling onto you that that's the way you have to do it as well. So there's some like expectation from other people, but also like you don't have to know it all as well. You can kind of just see how things go. I think again, like however many years ago, people would've like grown up, trained for a certain career and been in that career their whole life. Right. Whereas that's not necessarily the case anymore. So those older expectations of you need to know when you finish school what you're doing,'cause you're gonna be doing that for the rest of your life. That makes sense for that be for back. Then obviously there are issues with that because you're pigeonholed and you have to do this career that you might not want to do, but it made sense then. Whereas now, knowing what you wanna do, as soon as you leave school before you even go to uni or whatever, there's so much expectation. We're obviously working longer because we're living longer as well. So the idea of you have to know it all or at least it has to be all planned out and stuff like that. Like, and then if you don't know it, it's like, well again, I must be behind everyone else and I must be less happy because of that. Or people must see me differently because of that. But actually in reality, the best laid plans can go to waste. And like the amount of people I know who did a course at uni in a certain subject and then are now in a career that's completely unrelated and nothing at all to do with it. Like, yeah. Yeah. I think. There's a lot of stuff. It does seem to be a lot of external stuff that's impacting on then how you are experiencing. And actually, if you think about it, it doesn't always reflect what you actually want anyway kind of thing.

Kaina G:

Yeah, that's definitely true. I think this is a great conversation, like on self-compassion.'cause I know that's something I struggle to give myself. And I think that's a pretty common experience. Like for all the reasons you were just talking about because we're, we're seeing all these highlight reels and we're trying to put ourself on a timeline and do like manage, like figuring out what we want with the expectations of others. And I recently read this book with my dad on Mimetic theory. Have you heard of Renee Gerard?

Becca:

I've heard bits. I don't know tons, but I've heard bits. Yeah,

Kaina G:

so I was reading, it wasn't his book, but someone else was writing a book basically on his theory of mimetic desire, which is basically like ESIS is just understanding like the nature of desire and I. There's this part of the book that really stood out to me as like identifying your thin versus your thick desires. So like the thick desires are the ones that are gonna stand over time. You know, like the thin desires is like, oh, like everyone's getting married, everyone's having kids, everyone's making money, everyone's doing this X, Y, and Z. And like their desire of it makes you desire it because we're mimetic beings as people. So those are your thin desires. And then your thick desires are the ones that actually come from you. Like stuff that you actually wanna do, stuff that'll actually leave you fulfilled in life. And so I've been reading that and then I'm trying to like journal and figure out like, okay, what are my thin desires? What are my thick desires? Like, do I actually want this because I want it, or do I want it because everyone else wants it? Yeah. So it's definitely interesting. But I do feel like that connects to the compassion and all that stuff and the social media and all that. But yeah, very interesting topic for sure.

Ronnie G:

One thing that, I find myself saying to myself and maybe other folks is we see everybody on social media and we think they're all looking at us, but the truth is they're not even thinking about us 99.9% of the time. So it's just kind of like that reset. And then the other thing I wanted to bring up at this time, Have you read anything about anxiety and gut relation?

Becca:

I know like the gut is like the second brain kind of thing. And obviously it's like alive, it's active. But again, this really gets into just how I think anxiety is different to a lot of other mental health stuff because it's so physical. I think all mental health conditions are physical in some form or another. But I think this is how it stands out because how do you characterize anxiety? You characterize it as your heart beating really fast and your breath going really fast and your mind is going really fast. Like you define a lot of it through physical health stuff. And it's definitely related. So if we always think about anxiety in that like evolutionary way, obviously it. I'm in danger and I need to get out of this situation really quickly. So even just the idea of your body puts non-essential processes on hold, so it will just stop or really slow down your digestive system because that's not urgent right now. If you're running away from a dangerous animal, you can digest your food later. You just need to get away from it. Right? And then it leads into so much other things, like people who have a lot of anxiety or depression often have a really low sex drive because again, that's not an essential thing in that moment. You just need to get away from that dangerous situation. Obviously our body then doesn't realize that in the modern day, anxiety and stress can go on for like weeks or months or longer. It doesn't have to just be like a short 10 minute period, but yeah. Yeah. That idea of the gut health side of things comes from a very fundamental place of like, it made sense back then for our body to put all these things on hold because. We could deal with a situation really quickly and it did matter just getting out of it. Whereas now, like chronic long term, if you are stressed for ages or anxious for a long time, you are gonna be getting ill way more often because the body isn't designed. For being stressed all that long. Yeah. Yeah.

Ronnie G:

I appreciate you talking about that because I think that's big. And if I personally am dealing with something, or I feel like I'm super anxious, if I will look back nine times outta 10, I hadn't pooped in a couple days. Yep. And then I'm like, that's why. That's why I'm tearing him up. No, this is not a cycle sinking issue. This is me sitting down and getting some business done. The

Becca:

bathrooms, this is me, chronically constipated. That comes into it as well though with cycles that like difficulty on the toilet is a thing as well. One of the hormones, I think it's estrogen, but I'm not sure, is a muscle relaxer. And your bowels are just a muscle that pushes the thing through. So that is also a thing that people never think about as a symptom of like P essence stuff. But then if you are like you're PMSing anyway, and then PMS can make you more stressed out, that's like a double whammy. And then you're not going to the loof for like three days or something. Right. So it just all inter links is such a like back and forth relationship between all those. Oh yeah.

Kaina G:

I'm sure every woman that's listening can relate. Oh my goodness. Let's talk about some international tea. So you're obviously based in the UK and we're here in the States. is there any differences you've noticed between the UK and the US and how therapy and mental health in general is approached and or stigmatized? I don't know if you've spent any time in the states or really know much about therapy or mental health here, but maybe you could just speak to your experience in the UK and we could maybe see what's different.

Becca:

Yeah, so I don't know tons about the us. I've only been on holiday once to the us It was when I was like four or something and we went to Disney. Nice. That's it. But yeah, obviously I'm like following some people online and stuff like that. And I think it's interesting'cause I think this is one of the actually areas of healthcare that's actually a bit more similar between the UK and the us. I think obviously other parts of more physical healthcare, we have the NHS and stuff like that, and obviously it's not perfect and there are a long waiting list, but most people still do that. I think some people like the more low key stuff might consider going private now if they want something just done quickly. Or if they really, really need something big, they might go private. But the NHS is still a thing, whereas that doesn't really apply to mental health stuff. Like again, there is NHS services for mental health and for therapy and stuff, but the wait lists are insanely long. So you'll probably wait like six months to a year because particularly'cause of COVID. Um, it used to be like three to six months. Um, and now, yeah, it's longer. Um, and you'll get six to 10 sessions max. And it will only be CBT because it's cheaper to run because it's shorter and only the severe cases of people who are really, really struggling, like can't get out of bed struggling will actually get it. If you are just like, if you're really, really struggling internally, but you're still like functioning day to day, you're still going to work or whatever, there is no chance that you are gonna get like an NHS service stuff. So I think in that sense, a lot of people have to go private if they want to. There is a similarity there. I think I would argue in the UK there's probably more of a range of options in terms of pricing that I think is helpful. Like, for example, one of my placements was at a low cost private practice because they used students and students don't get paid. When they're on placement, it meant that they could offer the sessions for like half the price that they would've otherwise been. So it's like 30 or 40 pounds per session, whereas the average therapist is probably like 50 to 80. But I know in the US you're looking at like a couple of hundred as like an average price. It can be pretty pricey. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I think it's potentially a bit more accessible in the UK in that sense. Um, and I know insurance isn't much of a big thing. Like a few people will take insurance in the UK as a private therapist, but it's not a big thing at all. And often it's not worth the hassle for us.'cause not many people have it anyway, but also like the extra paperwork and stuff and you have to do a lot of check-ins with your client and give them like feedback and stuff. And they might only fund like six to 10 sessions anyway and the client actually wants it. Yeah. Way more than that. But I think on the kind of like. Stigmatizing side of things. I honestly think it's more of a generational thing. Like I think people of older years, particularly people who aren't online that look that much, particularly like people in my parents' generation or older, my grandparents' generation therapy was only for people who were like in a mental health unit at a hospital. Like that was literally like the idea in their mind. I don't think they think that anymore, but I think my parents maybe thought that growing up and I think my grandparents age still think that. Whereas in obviously the younger generations now, I do think there is a split. I think some people do still think that, and I come across plenty of people who still think that. But I think there are more people who are realizing, like a lot of people are actually high functioning and do everything they do day to day, they do their job, they have a family, they do all this kind of stuff, but again, they're just really struggling internally for decades. Mm-hmm. But also that therapy can just be to understand yourself a bit better. Obviously I've had multiple, lots of counseling and therapy. Part of it, just my own personal stuff, but part of it we have to do as part of our training to understand yourself so you're not bringing stuff into sessions kind of thing that shouldn't be there. Yeah. So I think some people are realizing that it is like just helpful to be aware of yourself for your relationships and everything else. I think though that people still can't justify coming to therapy and paying for therapy for that reason. So the clients I see are still mostly I'm struggling and I'm actively really like, like this is difficult for me. And like one client of mine got engaged not long before she started sessions with me. And I just said, oh, by the way, if you change your name or anything, or if your address changes, I need to know just for the paperwork. And she said, oh yeah, but we're not gonna get married for a while because I can't afford having therapy and have enough money. For the wedding kind of thing. Oh my gosh. So it's, I think it's really important and to me that just shows how much she needed it and how much she wanted therapy, that it was worth her putting the wedding on hold, for stuff like that. So yeah, I think there is a little bit of a thing around like, if you have anxiety or depression, you're bed bound or you're house bound. I think people in younger generations or people who are online a lot are realizing you can be high functioning. and still have a lot of these issues and it can still really impact you. But yeah, I think there's a lot of different factors that go into that stuff. I do think country is a part of it, but I think there's a lot of other relevance as well.

Kaina G:

Yeah. Yeah. I was really curious to hear the differences and it sounds like they're pretty minute for the most part. I think accessibility wise, I mean, I. It's not that easy to get therapy here, at least not like free therapy. I think it is shifting to become more accessible and I think that maybe that's a reflection of the generational thing, which I find interesting too.'cause I really didn't know, like from a different country, totally different history. Like if that was a thing too.'cause we just did an episode on like stigmas about mental health and therapy on like her generation and my generation and definitely her generation was like the tough it out, grin and bear it, like suffer in silence, you know, stuff like that. So that is shifting and I'm really happy that therapy's becoming less stigmatized nowadays. But it sounds like there are still a lot of barriers to people getting it. I guess to the degree I think it should be available, but. You know, we're on the journey. It's all right. Yeah, we're getting that. I definitely mean, I completely

Becca:

like, I think everyone should be able to, because as we've said with all the like physical mental health links, it will help people's physical health and therefore mm-hmm there will be less money that needs to be spent on those people in the NHS. So I think it would save them money long term. Um, and obviously I agree, just if people are feeling better, then they're more likely to be at work and all that kind of stuff. So on a million different levels, I think it is better. Um, and it is something that I think is very unfortunate about, the way that we do things. And that was a big tricky thing for me.'cause when I started my course, I wanted to work in the NHS because I'm a very like, left wing person and I think everyone deserves access to it and all that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. But as time went on, it just wasn't feasible with like, my life and it just wasn't compatible for me. And that's something that I still struggle with a little bit. I'm better with it. But the idea of. Taking money for something that I think should be offered to everyone no matter what is something I have to kind of consider and work around a lot. So yeah, it's, it's definitely something that we struggle with too.

Kaina G:

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure it is. I've, I've heard therapists talking about that before and I feel like if that thought is crossing your head, I mean, that just shows that you're a great person and that really cares about their clients and doesn't wanna take advantage of them in any way. So that is great. But I'm, I'm sure that's a very real struggle that doesn't exactly go away. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Ronnie G:

Okay, so this is something for you personally, what's one of the most overused pieces of mental health advice that you hear online?

Becca:

That's a tricky one.'cause there's a lot. There is a lot out there.

Ronnie G:

Maybe top three, top two.

Becca:

I think part of it comes from the difference between someone who doesn't really have any major mental health stuff and is just like day to day and someone who does, and I know there's not categories. I do see it as like a spectrum or a scale kind of thing, but something that is really, really helpful for someone who doesn't really have any major struggles currently happening versus someone who is struggling with anxiety are very, very different things. For me, for example, I'm not really majorly struggling with anything at the moment. If I'm having a rubbish day, going out for a walk is a really good thing for me'cause I know it helps me. But if you tell that to an anxious person, they're gonna like get so annoyed at you because no, that doesn't resolve everything, right? So I think stuff like that of people either taking a mental health approach and putting it onto people who aren't struggling or vice versa, that is where a lot of issues come up. And people don't always understand how deep these issues are. So for me, talking about affirmations is something that I really don't like. I think part of it is because they should be individualized. I don't think the idea itself is a negative thing. I think if that's something that helps you do it. But I think the reason why they've never worked for me potentially is because one, they feel really cheesy. And again, that's not my vine. But also like someone will put out there like. Five affirmations for when you really don't want to go into work. And I'm like, yeah, but you've written that from your perspective. Yeah, and like again, as I said before, whenever I'm with a client, it's always about their side of things. I don't wanna put ideas in their mind because that's not their actual lived experience, it's mine putting it onto them. So whenever I'm in a session and, and I'm like, I dunno, let's write down all the thoughts you were having. I'm like, oh, it sounds like there's something in that like area, that topic. How are we actually wording that? Because that is really important because it needs to sound like it's coming from them. So I think this idea of here's some affirmations you can say to yourself is a nice idea in theory, but unless you've written it yourself and it's your actual wording and your language you would use, it's not gonna help you that much. And I think then people struggle because then they're like, well, I've tried this and that, I've tried affirmations and, and that doesn't help me. That doesn't work. So I don't know what else I can do kind of thing. But it clearly worked for the person that posted it because. They've written it themselves and it applies to them. So that is an annoying one for me. And I personally, the idea of manifesting has come out a lot recently and I'm not a very like spiritual person as you know, I'm kind of realistic down to earth and stuff. So again, the idea of like sending some thoughts out into the world and then it makes it happen for you. I think it's the fundamental idea behind it of like, okay, but you need to actually make that happen. You stuff like this changes hard work and it's not just gonna happen. I do get the psychological stuff behind manifesting of like once it's in your mind and once you've kind of set it for yourself as a goal, you might subconsciously try and make it happen more because you put it out there and you want it to happen. So absolutely. On a kind of placebo psychological level, I do think it can help. I'm not saying it doesn't, but. I think equally it can ignore the fact that sometimes, like if you have your like dream job in mind and you're nowhere near that right now, it's not just gonna fall in your lap, is it? So I think manifesting on its own is a problem. If you do it amongst other stuff, then it can be really helpful. But just again, this idea of like, this is gonna fix everything for me, I think that's where I often struggle with stuff like that.

Kaina G:

Yeah, I would agree. Yeah, definitely. Like the blanket solutions and the oversimplification of solutions. And I like that you said like, I mean, there's a lot of people that like to go and give advice on how to fix your mental health or tell you this is why you're depressed, or X, Y, and Z. And oftentimes, like you said, like tell an anxious person to just go for a walk every day. Like if I'm severely anxious and like, or maybe I'm anxious and depressed, that's gonna make me wanna slap you in the face. Yeah. Literally.

Becca:

And. Like clients will come to me and say like, oh, I phoned this helpline. And or they, like they've just said down the phone like, I'm suicidal and I dunno what to do. I'm in an awful place. I just dunno how to keep on going. And a professional will say to them, do some journaling or go for a walk. And it's like, oh my God. Oh my God. I understand these things are understaffed and under-resourced and stuff. But you do realize that means absolutely nothing to them. Like

Kaina G:

Yeah, it's just a little out of touch.

Becca:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kaina G:

But I do like your hot takes on affirmations and manifesting because I feel like I'm really seeing like the no bs, the no fluff come out there. And I definitely agree with a lot of that, that like there may, there might be something to it, whether like scientifically there's something behind it, but even if it's like something more psychosomatic where like it's in your head and then. That kind of turns out to like, that affects how you're perceiving reality, which affects the actions you're taking and the thoughts that you might have in the future. But I definitely think people may be put too much weight in it and they don't put too much weight in like their responsibility to make things happen.

Becca:

Yes, definitely. Yeah. Again, it's that idea of, it's almost a sense of I have no control, or I feel helpless, like I can't do anything myself. All I can do is put these positive vibes out and the universe will just make it happen, which in a sense is reassuring.'cause it's like everything will work out okay in the end, and what I want to happen will happen, and I like that. But equally then if it doesn't happen, then it's like, well, I don't have a control over anything and the universe isn't doing what I want it to. So then. You could get into a depressive spell just about all of that anyway. Right?

Ronnie G:

One of the things, what Cana calls them, Ron-isms, but one of my big, uh, things is that we cannot cheat the hustle ever, ever. So it is up to us to put boots to the ground and, you know, see it through or at least get started. And so yeah, I see that.

Becca:

I can see where it's coming from. With that in mind, I can imagine you guys probably have a similar thought to me on this, but the idea of hustle culture is something that obviously is becoming more and more extreme and something that I am not down for, but it's still something that I am having to find a balance in myself. Obviously, being someone who has quite an online. Presence. There's a lot of expectation, again, of how everyone else is doing stuff and I need to be doing all this stuff. And I have had like some spells of, I have one spell of kind of low key burnout in like December time. And then I've kind of had hints of like, oh, I'm going towards that. I need to take a step back. And again, now that I'm aware of it, I can prevent it from happening and getting worse kind of thing. But I can understand the idea of manifesting or affirmations or whatever from a point of hustle. Culture is so hard and I feel like I do have to have the perfect job home partner family by this age. And it's so hard to do all those things at once nowadays. So I just want it to happen for me. But then like you say, it's like, but if we did actually work on all those things at once, you'd be exhausted. Like you wouldn't be happy at all with your life. So I think it's coming from that sense of societal expectations. Yeah. But again, the fundamental idea of it, I just don't necessarily agree with that side of it.

Ronnie G:

I appreciate you bringing that up because yeah, hustle means it's, it's not the same every generation, what that looks like. And so I can see that,'cause we just did something on hustle culture versus stability. And now that I'm looking at it, I, I have to be careful about, like, I used to always just say that to my kids. I don't really say it. Like, and a lot of times it was just like sports. Like, don't, you can't like halfway do something and be successful. There is usually some serious, you know, elbow grease that goes into it. And so I appreciate you saying that because hustle, it looks a lot different now than it did even 20 years ago. I agree.

Kaina G:

Yeah, our episode yesterday was basically about like the perspectives of work and the workforce and really just like, like hustle culture versus stability culture where like older generations in America, I don't know if it was the same for the uk, would like stay in the same job and that wasn't necessarily their dream job, but they did it nine to five and they worked really, really hard. And then versus our generation like the, the glorification of the hustle culture and always being booked and busy and always trying to have a side hustle and pay for this lavish life and all that stuff, it is so toxic.

Becca:

Yeah, I feel like there's two extremes. I guess. Obviously being a therapist online, there's a lot of wellness people around who are kind of anti all of that. I am very much find the gray area, find the middle of the road. Mm-hmm. Kind of thing. Because as humans we naturally fall into black and white thinking when actually in most cases, somewhere in the middle is the realistic option or the most likely optional, whatever. And it's something that again, that I've had to get used to and take on myself. Like if I'm, I dunno what to do in this situation, I have to say, okay, what is the middle ground kind of thing. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I think a lot of people are either, I feel like I need to be doing everything, but also I need to make it look effortless on the outside. I need to have that wellness vibe on the outside of like, oh no, I'm really happy and that's my focus and I just want to be happy, kind of thing. But internally, there's still the expectation of like success and all the rest of it. And I think as someone who has openly said to family members that I don't want to ever have kids, my partner feels exactly the same, so I at the moment can't see as having kids in the future. I think then the automatic expectation is. Oh, so you're just gonna dive into your career because that's like the only other thing that a woman can do, right? She either has kids or has a really like massive career kind of thing. And my career is important to me and I do enjoy my job and all the rest of it, but I'm, a lot of people know this about me. I'm a feminist as well. And the point of feminism is you don't have to do one thing. You don't have to be a housewife or a big career person. You get the choice. You're not forced or feeling forced to do either side, right? That's the point of it. To have the freedom to choose what you wanna do on an individual level, not based on your gender. So. For me, it's like, well, why are you pigeonholing me like that? Like, just'cause I'm a woman. You wouldn't say that to a guy, right? Would you? Like if a guy said, you sure

Kaina G:

wouldn't.

Becca:

Yeah. If a guy said, oh, I don't want to have kids, you'd be like, oh, okay. Fair enough. Or you might like, I mean, some people would still say like, oh, when you get to a certain age you want, you definitely want to, and I've had my first share of that. But like, you wouldn't then say, oh, okay, so you're gonna really focus on your career. Right. You'd just be like, oh, okay. He doesn't want to, but,'cause I'm old. Golly, that's the stuff that I get, so, oh my gosh. Yeah. I'm trying to find a middle ground of, I do want to have a successful career, but successful doesn't mean long working hours, and it doesn't mean a certain amount of money. It means. Not working full hours so I can spend more time with my partner or pop around to see my sister and her kids whilst they're growing up or having long weekends so I can see friends who live further away, but also enjoying my job and being able to make a living as well. So, yeah. Yeah. Again, for me it's important to find where that middle ground is.'cause most people aren't on the extremes kind of thing.

Kaina G:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that it's easier for a lot of people to operate in like black and white and extremes. Mm. But oftentimes I feel like that does more damage over time because life is very complex. Yeah. Without a doubt. Without a doubt. Yeah. But oh my gosh, you're so cool. I'm obsessed with you. When you said you're a feminist, I'm like, oh my God. It gets even better. Okay. So our closing or what she said, do you have a mindset, a mantra, or in your personal style? A brutally honest, no fluff truth that you come back to when anxiety or worrying or overthinking comes back in. So something you maybe tell your clients in this regard or something even you tell yourself.

Becca:

Can I cheat and have two? Yeah, of course. So I think one is the gray area, like always find the middle ground or the gray area or the compromise. I think like. A client might say to me like, oh, I'm meant to be meeting up with a friend later, but I'm so, so exhausted. And they might have something around like, people pleasing or I haven't seen this friend in ages or something like that. And I'm, okay, what's the gray area? And again, I don't say to them what the gray area should be.'cause that would be different for everyone. So it, for some people it would be, I'll go, but I can only stay for a certain amount of time. For some people it's, I'm gonna rearrange it for tomorrow or for next week. For some people it's, we won't meet in public, but we'll go back to their house or my house because that's less draining for me. So, mm-hmm. I think finding the gray area is really helpful because we do think in that black and white a lot, and it's like, oh, I feel like I have to choose between these two things, but that's not always the case kind of thing. So I think finding the middle ground is really important. And it also helps with like progress as well. I think if you're like. I am struggling with my mental health, so I wanna do all the self-care things. You're not gonna be able to maintain that and hold that forever. So what's the point? Like Yeah, if you find the middle ground of, okay, I'm just gonna do a 10 minute walk every other day, it's not a big step. It won't drastically change your life, but it might give you a 1% improvement and you know, chances are you could do that for the majority of the year kind of thing. That is something you're actually gonna stick to. Mm-hmm. It's helping that progress as well, because the little and often stuff is the stuff that builds up and I guess leads into a lot of like the diet, culture and stuff that we have as well. You're either like, you being good and you are on a diet and you're being really strict on yourself, or you're on holiday and you are pig hill and eating all sorts. Right. Um, whereas if you have the middle ground, it's a lot more sustainable. So yeah, that's definitely one of my key ones. But also like. Just give it a sec. Just wait a minute. Like again, feeds into some of that stuff we were saying around like hustle culture, and I feel like I'm behind everyone else and social media and all stuff like that, but also anxiety itself, again, in that biological side of things has a sense of urgency naturally that comes with it. It's like something's happening and I need to resolve it now, and I need to do this thing. And again, back then when we were survivalism stuff, it made sense because you did have to resolve it now, otherwise you could get killed by an animal or something. But nowadays, that's often not the case, but it still gives us that sense of urgency. Yeah. So even like in the moment, it's like, oh, okay, I need to decide right now. And I don't know. And it's like, well, this thing isn't happening till tomorrow, right? Yeah. So why do you have to decide this second? Why don't you think about it for a few hours and then make a decision kind of thing. So I think. Yeah, in both kind of more like longer term and shorter term versions of that, just wait a sec as well. Give our body time to get out of that super emotional stressy mind and get back into our logical, more rational state of mind. That can be a really big help as well, I think.

Kaina G:

Oh, that's so true. I feel like I am, well, I've told you I struggle with anxiety and just all the things we've been talking about today, the worrying and overthinking. You know, like as soon as something comes up I'm like, I wanna solve it right away.'cause I don't feel like I can relax until it's, it's like done outta my brain and I've realized it's very toxic of me and also prevents me from being able to actually like wind down and relax. I'm always stressed and so that's something I'm working on is reframing my brain to like. I don't have to deal with this right now. Like I can sit here and just be me and enjoy this time and then know that like I'll be fully capable of handling this tomorrow or when it comes up.

Becca:

So

Kaina G:

it's definitely, it's definitely tough, but I definitely think that you're onto some very, very good advice there.

Becca:

Thank you. Thank you.

Kaina G:

Yeah. Well thank you so much. This has been one of my favorite interviews for sure. I think it's so interesting, especially'cause I'm interested in therapy and counseling and psychology and all that, but your insights have been very profound and I love your personal style. I think it's exactly what people need nowadays, so keep doing you.

Becca:

I love it. Thank you. Honestly. Yeah. I really appreciate you guys having me on and obviously as we said, accommodating time and issues with wifi and all the rest of it, so. Oh

Kaina G:

yes. Well thank you And that's the tea. That's the, thank you.