You’re Selling All Wrong! Psychology Behind Irresistible Sales Frameworks | Local Leverage Ep. 14

In this episode of Local Leverage, hosted by Mark Hockridge, we sit down with Ian Ross, the visionary behind the Vivid Selling framework and a sought-after sales strategist for high-ticket solopreneurs and small businesses. Ian transitioned from commission-only life insurance sales in New York to top-tier solar and tech sales roles before becoming a highly effective sales coach and entrepreneur at Disruptors.

Ian Ross shares insights on:

✅ How gamifying your sales process transforms results
✅ The mindset shift that tripled his sales overnight
✅ Why “commission breath” is killing your deals
✅ How to tap into your prospect’s emotional brain (limbic system)
✅ Why most sales teams fail—and what to do instead

If you're a small business owner, solopreneur, or sales leader looking to dramatically increase your close rate while staying authentic and consistent, this episode is packed with game-changing insights you won’t want to miss!

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Transcript

00:00:06:14 - 00:00:16:14
Unknown
welcome to local leverage your competitive edge in business. Today we're sitting down with a sales strategist renowned for helping solopreneurs close more deals with unique sales frameworks.

00:00:16:16 - 00:00:40:22
Unknown
You might recognize him from his impactful sessions with Disruptors and The Architect, a vivid selling framework for mastering psychological persuasion to building unshakable sales pipelines. He's transforming the way small businesses grow. Today, we're diving into how you can gamify your approach to sales to stay more productive and focused. Sales frameworks that win, and why emotion is the key to sales.

00:00:41:00 - 00:00:44:08
Unknown
Now get ready for a deep dive with Ian Ross.

00:00:44:08 - 00:00:52:18
Unknown
Thanks for having me. Excited to be here. Yeah. My pleasure. So, a tell me a little bit about me. I want to get into all sorts of sales tactics and strategies, things like that.

00:00:52:18 - 00:01:06:17
Unknown
But I'm just curious about your own sales journey. How did you, get into sales and what led you to become a coach? Yeah. So my first sales role, my first commission only sales role was selling life insurance in tough sales. State.

00:01:06:17 - 00:01:10:04
Unknown
Yeah, new York state. So I'm selling like, union

00:01:10:04 - 00:01:12:21
Unknown
drivers. So I'm selling Teamsters on life insurance.

00:01:12:21 - 00:01:32:03
Unknown
I have to have I cut my teeth in commission only sales, having conversations with truck drivers about what it would be like for the family if they don't come home tomorrow, which is a tough, tough sell. So to be able to make that work enough to provide for yourself in New York City, which is where I was living, I was doing okay enough and you had to make it.

00:01:32:05 - 00:01:48:04
Unknown
Yeah, I had to be okay enough to be able to get by. So that was my first commission only sales role. I did pretty well there, but I didn't. That company I mean, the joke I always tell is that for that company and most of life insurance, if you can breathe on a mirror and it fogs up, they will hire you.

00:01:48:06 - 00:02:06:09
Unknown
So that's, you know, it was the heavy emphasis on recruiting, if you know what I mean. Like that type, I get it. I was never I was never destined to be at that company for very long. I always the goal was always to get hired there, to use that as my first sales role, so I could leverage it into another position.

00:02:06:11 - 00:02:22:11
Unknown
So from there, I transitioned to solar at a very big company, at the time the biggest seller company in the country. It wasn't door knocking or anything like that. It was all set for me. I was going into homes and closing there. So it's still face to face though in person it was. It was entirely face to face.

00:02:22:11 - 00:02:43:01
Unknown
In fact, insurance wasn't because this was this was a transition into the sort of zoom world of starting to sell insurance. And so you were supposed to be within the state to be able to sign it legally at that time, which I think they're a little more lenient on now, by the very nature of that, the world changing a little bit with the pandemic.

00:02:43:01 - 00:03:01:07
Unknown
But at the time it was like, you're supposed to be nearby, even though we were virtual, and so, yeah, solar was face to face. I was a field sales consultant, so belly to belly sales. And that's when I got really good. That's when I was like, okay, I'm like, top of the leaderboard at this nationally recognized company.

00:03:01:09 - 00:03:20:21
Unknown
So that was that's the price you think that that was was that a result of you finding the right space for yourself, or was it about the training or is this the repetition entirely a mindset approach? I know exactly what happened. So I can I can get into that separately from the journey if you'd like. Yeah. But the so real quickly from there I leveraged to getting to coach.

00:03:20:21 - 00:03:41:01
Unknown
I leverage that to a cushy tech sales job where I was never going to be happy at that as a W-2 employee. And so I did that for, you know, great benefits, very high base and transition. I was like, this isn't for me. I want to have an entrepreneurial spirit. So I started a virtual wholesaling company, page, Steve, tracking the cost of a car to mentor me.

00:03:41:03 - 00:04:01:17
Unknown
And from there, so like the rest of history, because he wanted to, I came out to an event and we saw that my cold caller, who I trained personally, was getting seven leads a day, and his work for the service Steve was using was getting seven a month per agent. And so now, granted, mine were not as tightly qualified as his.

00:04:01:17 - 00:04:22:12
Unknown
Mine was probably close to about two and a half per day based on the qualifications, but a significant difference. Huge when he was doing it. So when I when interest rates changed and I had scaled pretty quickly, I was like, this isn't sustainable, I'm gonna have to go get another cushy sales job because I just took on all these, you know, having multiple full time callers and being unable to move properties.

00:04:22:12 - 00:04:43:00
Unknown
I was locking up because we were just setting calls. For me. That was the whole set up. And I was like, this is, oh, I'm in trouble. And he was like, I can see what you're doing. Come work for me. Let's figure out something else to take your Vas and we can figure out something. So that was the process for selling for him and being a coach and training Vas first through disruptors for a thing we don't offer anymore called disruptors, certified cold callers.

00:04:43:00 - 00:05:02:01
Unknown
And then that got shut down for a variety of different reasons, had nothing to do with us. But from there, it was a transition to launching a community. I'm basically an entrepreneur here at disruptors. Yeah, excellent. How I got good at solar was I mean, I was good at insurance. It just wasn't I wasn't great at insurance. I went from good to great at solar.

00:05:02:03 - 00:05:22:23
Unknown
I remember exactly what happened. So I was relatively new at the company. I'd only been there. I'm still within the first sort of 3 or 4 months, I believe. And it's February. This is in Illinois, so it's a shorter month. It's cold, it's dark. The leads came from, you know, in the store at like Home Depot and Costco and things like that.

00:05:23:03 - 00:05:40:00
Unknown
So first off, people aren't going into those stores doing work on their houses on February. Yeah. We're also not thinking solar typically about that. And then also even when I went out, sometimes I couldn't sell it because you can't get on the roof if there's if it's below a certain temperature at a certain angle for insurance purposes. And we didn't.

00:05:40:05 - 00:05:58:01
Unknown
So there was all types of challenges. And so it was in that month I was going to, I was told my manager, I had a great manager at the time. He told me, you're going to get put on a performance improvement plan, a Pep, because like, you're not at these numbers. And my brain was like, even though this is only my second sales role I couldn't process, I'm like, wait a second, no, I'm good at sales.

00:05:58:01 - 00:06:14:21
Unknown
This isn't this doesn't feel right. And he told me, not based on your current closing ratio. If you just go into two homes a day for the rest of the day, you just had to work this month you will hit numbers. And so I had that in mind. Were you or are you just not doing those reps or those that type of activity?

00:06:14:22 - 00:06:28:13
Unknown
No, I mean, I was I was, but also people were canceling all the time in February and I was I just he was just trying to reassure me. It wasn't like I wasn't doing the reps. He was just trying to emotionally reassure me that you're not going to get put on proven plan if you actually just go into two homes a day.

00:06:28:15 - 00:06:48:16
Unknown
And I was like, okay, let me think about it that way. And I tried to embrace this idea of like, okay, I'll think about it that way, but I treat it. I want to try and treat my activity like it's the goal. And then what happened is, and sort of concurrently with that, my grandfather, who was my last remaining grandparent at the time, got put in hospice.

00:06:48:18 - 00:07:06:06
Unknown
And so he was it was like very short term, not like a long term hospice. It's going to be this week. No, I couldn't offload my my appointments at that time. So I had to I just I couldn't offload them. They had to do these leads. So I had two calls I had to go do because I don't want to get in trouble.

00:07:06:06 - 00:07:24:00
Unknown
I'm not trying to lose this job, but I didn't have any desire to be having a sales conversation. Right. Like I mourn, I just want to grieve a little bit. Like this is really sad. And so I just had this approach of like, I don't care whether or not I get the sale now. I wasn't cold, I wasn't callous, I didn't push them away.

00:07:24:05 - 00:07:42:19
Unknown
It just really was. I just don't need to sell. This is not important to me. And beforehand I was very much, especially coming from being trained in insurance. Very much like you need this. Let's get you this very sort of like, let me transfer my certainty to you about how great this is for you, so you can feel how concerned I am and therefore move forward.

00:07:42:21 - 00:08:05:10
Unknown
And by actually have demonstrating a complete lack of need or want of just like I still went through the process, I still ask the questions. I still made the little jokes that I had prepared at certain points, but I had no commission breath whatsoever because I wasn't thinking about it. That was the first day I got a two for both those appointments closed, and I had been struggling to even get, you know, get two in a week at that point.

00:08:05:12 - 00:08:24:19
Unknown
And I got 200. Did you have the did you have the self-awareness as you're going through that to realize that, you know, before you were making it about you and now all of a sudden reframing it with maybe a more casual attitude and about them, not at that moment. That came a little bit later as reflecting back on what was working, because it happened pretty quickly.

00:08:24:19 - 00:08:44:18
Unknown
I got very reflective, very quickly. My superpower is not that I'm immediately great at sales, but I am incredibly self analytical and so often it can be to a fault. Though I do have a, a tendency to action over overthinking, which is not everyone who is that self analytical has the right tendency. Luckily I have not.

00:08:44:19 - 00:09:03:18
Unknown
I'm like, well, let's act first and we can figure it out later. Steve shares that with me, but I'm very self-referential and evaluating what worked and what didn't. I always have been. And so I realized later I was like, well, I got two in a day. That's crazy. And so I started thinking, okay, my job now is to just go into two homes a day.

00:09:03:20 - 00:09:22:11
Unknown
And the reason sales is so tough for so many people is not actually just the losses and the bad months. It's really the roller coaster aspect. It's that I'm on top of the world. I just got to in a day. The congratulations to patting on the back, the ringing of the gong kind of thing. Everyone's like, I got it.

00:09:22:13 - 00:09:43:16
Unknown
And then someone, I can get anything for a week. I'm a loser. How could I not be? And that that up and down is brutal for people. So I decided to completely change my approach internally. And instead of letting myself ride that roller coaster which dictates your results, I thought, okay, you know, first off, when's the easiest time to get a sale?

00:09:43:18 - 00:10:00:11
Unknown
Right after you made a previous one? Because you're in a good mood, you're generating non neediness, you're operating from a place of abundance and then the people are like, man, this guy knows what he's talking about. I want it instead of like, let me get you this. You got to sign up. Once you have that neediness is it repels people absolutely want you're like, I already got my sale.

00:10:00:11 - 00:10:22:07
Unknown
I'm good. You actually act from a better place and people trust you more. And you, you, because you no longer are trying to force them to do anything in particular, like you're good and then that is magnetic to want to work with you. And so I decided I will only celebrate my activity. And so I would treat two homes per day like a sale and one home per day.

00:10:22:07 - 00:10:36:01
Unknown
Even if it was a sale, I couldn't celebrate because the whole goal was just to celebrate activity. And if I did three, I'd treat it like two sales. Four treat it like three. That was just I just told myself to do that. Yeah. And so I went into two homes a day and I would be like, all right, no sale.

00:10:36:01 - 00:10:53:16
Unknown
And some of it, you know, credit fail or whatever. But I was like, that doesn't matter. I treat it like it's a win. I just know I got to keep doing this and it absolutely unlocked my brain. I went from riding the rollercoaster of like this and this and this to just sort of cruising up here and just always, like, never seeming like I needed a deal.

00:10:53:18 - 00:11:15:13
Unknown
I only needed, I think it was 8 or 9 at that company to not get written up. I got 13 in February because I just crushed it then. And then I averaged 17 per month. The rest of my time was like, wow, what a profound reframing that you did there. And, to to focus on the activities. I mean, to me, it's reminds me of, like Covey's, four disciplines execution.

00:11:15:13 - 00:11:35:04
Unknown
Right? Just focus on the leading measures, focus on things that are predictive and influence people, versus focusing only on the outcomes. Right. And I think that's essentially what you're saying. Yeah. And I try and tell salespeople because it's like it is inevitable that you get told, no, that is part of sales. Anyone who says they're closing 100% is a liar.

00:11:35:04 - 00:12:02:22
Unknown
So or if they're not qualifying or it's not expensive enough, right. Like it doesn't make sense to get told yes every single time. So no is part of it. It's an inevitability. So instead of beating myself up for the no. And this is where the balance comes of trying to figure out what went wrong so you can improve, but also having the mindset that no is inevitable, which means especially when you're paid either all commissioner heavy commission that I get paid for the nose.

00:12:03:00 - 00:12:23:19
Unknown
So the math I like to tell people is like, if you get paid $1,000 per sale, let's just say, and it takes you, and you close, you know, one out of every ten that you talk to, it's actually presented, which is a pretty in real estate is about average for different people. It's lower depending on for other industries.

00:12:24:00 - 00:12:44:22
Unknown
But let's just say for that metric that every time you got told no, you made $100. Instead of thinking, oh, I made $0 nine times and then I made a thousand. Getting told no is part of it. Now you can think I want to improve my skill set so that I close three out of every ten instead of one out of every ten, and then I make more per know that.

00:12:45:00 - 00:13:09:11
Unknown
But if you can actually hack your brain that way, it's really powerful and you can even think, okay, for every ten, let's save to meet in person like mine, for every ten phone conversations, it takes ten to be able to get an in-person appointment. Every time I talk to someone on the phone, then I make ten bucks. And if it takes, you know, every time it takes five dials to meet someone, I mean, every time I dial the phone, it goes to voicemail.

00:13:09:11 - 00:13:26:16
Unknown
No one answers. If I could see my bank account go up $2, sales would be the easiest job in the world. You would never get burned out if the actual leading metric of what you actually have to do on a daily basis was defined by your activity, you just. I dialed the phone. No one answered $2 I the phone, no one answered $2.

00:13:26:19 - 00:13:51:20
Unknown
You would push through forever and get way more sales and so you can hack your brain and actually celebrate that activity. The results will come in abundance. It's so true. It's true for everyone I've ever trained. I try inspire people to do that. That's super liberating for a salesperson to to hear it that way. Because we're all so outcome focused and, and, and to your point, there's, there's no's or there's little micro rejections.

00:13:51:22 - 00:14:19:23
Unknown
Can either wear on you or can be just seen as kind of part of the journey. How how have you seen that manifest for your clients? Was that also now becoming a huge unlock for them? I sure hope so. I mean, I, I certainly try and inspire them to do that. I don't know how much everyone actually embraces that because it is a real different mindset shift the most here till I tell them this all the time, so I can't control whether or not they actually internalize that.

00:14:19:23 - 00:14:43:21
Unknown
There's one company, small company, but they had me do a like for their quarterly. They had like 3 or 4 sales guys. They actually tried to change their whole metrics of how they viewed activity as celebrating stuff that way, which was incredibly honored for, because most people I really mean this as an internal metric for salespeople, but they tried to adjust their entire KPIs for the salespeople around that idea.

00:14:43:23 - 00:15:03:16
Unknown
I don't know how it well, it worked for them or not, but ultimately, I think it is the single most liberating thing anyone can use to think about what they do. It's most obvious in sales because of how commission works, but that's true for most. If you get paid per hour at a coffee shop and you pour a certain amount of coffee per hour, you can think, all right, I just made $0.30.

00:15:03:16 - 00:15:26:18
Unknown
Like, sure, that's it's not just I'm doing this menial thing. And every now and then money goes up. You can actually embrace things that way and view your bank account going up incrementally based on the stuff you actually do. It helps you feel the meaning behind the work that you don't have to actually paid for. The other thing I love about it is it takes the pressure off of that one event, which is that closing event, right?

00:15:26:18 - 00:15:44:09
Unknown
And say, I'm thinking about it more incrementally this way. It alleviates that. And probably to your point, it, strips away some of that, you know, sales breath or that neediness that tends to just come off you. And if you're if you're desperate and you're trying to sell. Yeah, there's two benefits to it. Exactly what you brought up.

00:15:44:09 - 00:16:04:22
Unknown
One is the most obvious is the internal way the salesperson feels about their day in their time. So that eases the stress. And the second is also how that prospect experiences that salesperson, which then makes them more likely to say yes anyway. So by actually freeing them up from focusing on the results and again, obviously we are in pursuit of results.

00:16:04:22 - 00:16:28:03
Unknown
Part of the reason I say that this works is because I've seen it get me way more results by doing it. If it didn't work, I probably wouldn't say this because the results are the goal. But by celebrating the activity, you actually get more results. That's what I found. It's a little bit like, like in Zen Buddhism, the way to reach enlightenment is not to require trying to get enlightenment like that's it's a little bit like that.

00:16:28:03 - 00:16:44:09
Unknown
Like, sure, it feels like this weird sort of oxymoron catch 22 thing, but it's actually the path to being more successful anyway. And so to me, that's how I think about this is like, yeah, obviously we care about results. It's the nature of a sales role, but if you can, your internal metric can be to do the activity.

00:16:44:14 - 00:17:12:03
Unknown
The results come way easier. This may be difficult for you to pinpoint them into, but as you think about your coaching and your engagements, how much of what percentage of your energy and focus is on this mindset versus kind of the more tactical blocking and tackling and skills and things like that? The majority of my coaching time is probably spent on tactical stuff and rather than the mindset thing, because especially when a company's paying me versus an individual.

00:17:12:03 - 00:17:28:19
Unknown
So it depends who I'm coaching. Because if I'm coaching an individual, the most impactful thing for them might actually be that mindset work in that moment. I don't do too much individual coaching anymore because it's not super cost effective for me with my time, but I used to do a lot more of it as I was getting started with Steve.

00:17:28:19 - 00:17:52:23
Unknown
To get to that level where people wanted me, and desire being a justified having group coaching. And so and I also just cut my teeth on different personality types in different situations. But for an individual, I'd be more comfortable spending more time on mindset. When you're training a team and there's business owners, or you're training people who are like at scale, they're like, yeah, I don't want to hear that.

00:17:53:02 - 00:18:19:20
Unknown
Because also, there's a weird challenge for a lot of people to differentiate between that, which is a really kind of actionable mindset that you can apply to your daily metrics and life and the sort of like rah rah, ridiculous social media mindset stuff. It's just like, just go get it, bro. And it's harder to talk about that difference, even though I view them as very different than it is to actually spend most of my time coaching really tactical sales process stuff.

00:18:19:20 - 00:18:43:06
Unknown
Like I was just doing one the other day on the nuance of if you use if you were to ask a question on like saying on a scale of 1 to 10, where are you on this ten being you needed this done yesterday and one being you have no interest at all. You where are you on that and about where you it's like, I don't love questions like that because I think they're too they're that's an overt sales tactic as opposed to a covert one.

00:18:43:06 - 00:19:05:15
Unknown
It's like I'm doing a sales technique on you. It's like engage with it. And the problem when it's like that is that you run the risk of giving them, reminding them of an experience I had with some Volvo dealership that basically screwed them over. Yeah. And so you can try out of that requires requires charisma because your charisma means that you seem separate from the other salespeople, even though the tactic is identical.

00:19:05:17 - 00:19:25:23
Unknown
And that is not what I ever want to be in pursuit of when training, because I want to be able to train teams that have a variety of personalities and regardless of the charisma of the of who was hired, I want to be able to say what I teach with authority in a way that works, and that's why I try to avoid stuff like that, like, I know you understand the idea, but sometimes I tell people stuff this, they're like, what do you say, overt?

00:19:25:23 - 00:19:44:06
Unknown
Covert? I was like, if I have go obvious, then I have to be more charismatic. And that can work for me because I can be very charismatic. Like a lot of my insurance sales was very much like, I'm your friend. I'm doing a rapport. Like, oh, you're so good at this. Thank you so much. Like, like my ego is very tied to it, right?

00:19:44:06 - 00:20:13:14
Unknown
I suppose as I got better, I started trying to think about, especially as I got into training about what is the best practice that I could stand behind if they didn't have my charisma, if they didn't speak like me, if they didn't have my tonality, my body language, my energy, and they just were to just try and read this line or embrace this, this framework, will this give the most amount of people the greatest chance of success against the most possible avatars, or is this overly reliant on my personality?

00:20:13:16 - 00:20:35:02
Unknown
And I talked about that self-evaluation. When you actually apply that and really think like, am I doing this because I'm me, which can work for any individual salesperson. But as a trainer and coach, I have to give advice that works for the most amount of people so that I can stand behind it regardless of what I'm training. It's kind of takes us to like, you know, systems and frameworks and the importance of of that versus just relying on charisma.

00:20:35:04 - 00:20:59:00
Unknown
Yeah. So, and I mean, let's start really at the top. I mean, as you're engaging with the client and we, our audiences, you know, lots of different types of small businesses, but as you're thinking about your sales model and sales framework to apply, how do you go about determining if this should be a consultative engagement versus a more transactional sale?

00:20:59:01 - 00:21:34:06
Unknown
What's the calculus for identifying the right framework for your business? Well, the biggest factor in my mind comes down to whether or not you're selling a consumer or you're selling another business. That's the the biggest way I differentiate B2B and B2C is not whether or not I'm technically selling a business, because a lot of times I am selling businesses, but how I differentiate is that when I'm selling a business or when in a B2B approach, there are, or if you were to sell something like a new CRM.

00:21:34:06 - 00:21:57:03
Unknown
To me, I actually cannot make that decision myself. Even if I love what you show me. I have to wait till the leadership meeting and bring this up and talk about alternatives and do that and become that sales person's advocate within the internal meeting, and then set a different called follow up. And the natural process of B2B takes longer because that oftentimes the person you're talking to cannot make the decision themselves.

00:21:57:03 - 00:22:14:04
Unknown
Yeah, even Steve's been very smart in that, even though he is the sort of highest authority here at disruptors, he's because he's made mistakes in the past. He's put limiters on his power like he almost an even hire me because I was working with a previous partner and they're like, we can't hire someone who works with that guy.

00:22:14:06 - 00:22:37:01
Unknown
And so he told me that I was like, oh, yeah, I'll just not work with him. But like, that was a thing that his, the other members of leadership told him, like, you cannot hire this guy, even though he's like, I want to unless he stops doing this. And so that is which is really interesting because he's smart enough to be analytical about his own process, that if he doesn't put checks and balances in place, he will make mistakes as a leader.

00:22:37:03 - 00:22:58:07
Unknown
So that's how he he had that set up. So I bring that up in that if I'm if the business is selling and consumer. So if you're selling a homeowner. Yeah. And so they might have a spouse or something. But like someone who a consumer they can make the decision themselves. In which case it's much more transactional in terms of time.

00:22:58:12 - 00:23:16:18
Unknown
I have a consultative approach in terms of how I make the homeowner feel in that moment, to feel certain that I'm the right fit for them. Like I say all the time, a lot of people come in and they treat, selling a consumer like a, like I had a car dealership and car dealerships is the reason they sat across me at the table.

00:23:16:18 - 00:23:38:17
Unknown
They slide you the contract, you all these sleazy tactics in my mind, I want to sit on the same side of the table of you as you and look at that contract together. So I have a consultative sales approach, but it's transactional in that if I'm meeting with you in your home, I'm expecting to be able to have you sign something right now as opposed to relationship based is because you can't make the decision.

00:23:38:19 - 00:23:54:11
Unknown
I need you to be my advocate at your company. Yeah. Or with whoever else needs to have a say in this. And then we'll set a firm follow up time after you've had a chance to run it by everyone else. So how I really differentiate is just how long I will need to sell that person. Yeah. And I like the differentiation too.

00:23:54:11 - 00:24:20:09
Unknown
Like I just described it kind of across the table versus same side. Like we're partnering or teaming together on this to solve this issue. What are the typical mistakes or challenges you see salespeople get into when it comes to their consultative approach, or lack of. Salespeople. There's nothing more important in a sales conversation than active listening, and they are not good at it by default.

00:24:20:11 - 00:24:34:14
Unknown
I think that they also have to have happy ears, which is kind of a good thing sometimes because you need that people to get through stuff. So the happier phenomenon is like, yeah, I think I like this. And like, he definitely wants to do it. He's on board like I said, I think I like this. All right, all right.

00:24:34:15 - 00:24:54:17
Unknown
So there's that. And there's also just not being good at going layers deeper. I was on a call today and someone brought up it was someone trying to acquire properties. And he brought up, this guy wants to sell, but he wasn't super motivated. I was like, why did he want to sell? He said, he was downsizing to a condo.

00:24:54:19 - 00:25:11:22
Unknown
Like, that's not enough reason to sell for a discount to an investor why you want to sell to an investor? And he said, oh, because he wanted quick and easy and, like, why did he want quick and easy? Like, I don't know. Yeah. To me that's not enough of you sell. If you know you can say quick and easy, but why is quick and easy important to you?

00:25:12:04 - 00:25:35:13
Unknown
What has you come out now? People meet easy means different things to different people. What does it mean for you? Going layers deeper is something you can only do effectively when you're actually engaging your active listening skills. So first is just being able to hear what they said honestly and then knowing to go layers deeper, like, yeah, I want to figure out the emotion underneath what happened to you that causes you to want it quick and easy.

00:25:35:15 - 00:25:54:05
Unknown
And if I can tap into that now, I've got ammunition for objections, for the clothes, for my price to justify all that. And if I'm just. Yeah, you just want to downsize. It's like there's nothing I can do with that. And most salespeople don't go deeper. Is that discovery or investigation? Is that, part of the framework and all the research?

00:25:54:06 - 00:26:17:07
Unknown
There's structure to how to ask those questions and how to, derive of impact or, are used. You know, I've heard like platitudes like, well, ask, you know, three questions sequentially. Well, that still might not get you there. I'm just curious how you tend to coach that. Yeah. So how I like to think about it, especially in the context of what we were just talking about, which is acquiring a property at a discount.

00:26:17:07 - 00:26:36:11
Unknown
Yeah. Is I need to be able to write a five paragraph essay about your motivation before I give you my price, but I can pay like I need to honestly think that I understand why you want to move forward. What happens if you don't? Where do you want to go? Like why do you want to move forward with me?

00:26:36:12 - 00:27:03:10
Unknown
Why not some other investor? Why not some? Why not with a realtor? Yeah. And then like, ultimately the emotional implications underneath that sounds like it's always like, why do I want to sell? Why do they really want to sell all that stuff? I need to be able to have all of that. And we train on that very idea, not just in discovery, but even when I go for the clothes, I have variables in my closing questions, and that is based on things they had told me, the picture that they would that they have that we solve.

00:27:03:12 - 00:27:22:12
Unknown
So the other mistake that salespeople make, your point is that I'll teach this and they miss. And I tell them to like, dig for pain, right. Which is an aspect of motivation, but they don't understand. I try to make a clear, but I listen to a call or talk to them after. You'll see they make this mistake. We only want to dig for pain we can solve.

00:27:22:14 - 00:27:38:02
Unknown
If we can't solve the pain, if there's nothing, if they're talking about the dog that died eight years ago that they just missed dearly, me buying your home does nothing to solve that pain. Unless I might feel like less being in this house. The dog died in your room and you're. You cry about that every time you walk past this spot.

00:27:38:02 - 00:27:56:00
Unknown
But that's not how most people talk about right? Disease stock. Right. And so salespeople will lean on this pain. But you don't solve this pain with what you sell. So it's always the pain that I solve that I want to spend the most time on. If you do it right, you really only need three pain points. So you want to go deep enough to figure out what caused it.

00:27:56:01 - 00:28:08:23
Unknown
Has that affecting you? Has it affecting other people? How long ago does that happen? You want to have that for all the pain points that we solve. And then we can stack those up and say, we solve these. What do you feel like we should do now? Yeah. And they're like, oh, I want to go forward with you.

00:28:09:01 - 00:28:36:12
Unknown
This reminds me of a sales methodology, and I'm not sure if this is, you know, based on that or if you've been aware of it, that is the solution. Selling management by Boswell. And it would kind of had like a, a nine block framework, which I won't get into the details of. But it started with basically kind of this, you know, discovery of pain points and then followed by, some conversation, discovery around the impact of those, like, you know, who's impacted by this problem.

00:28:36:14 - 00:28:57:13
Unknown
What does that mean in terms of dollars and cents or emotion or whatever that might be as a way to really understand not only the what, but how does this manifest? And then ultimately then to have them envision, you know, what does it look like with this solved? Or how can and specifically, how can they use what you're offering to solve their problem?

00:28:57:13 - 00:29:25:08
Unknown
Right. They're the ones, solving their own problem and which I thought was a really powerful framework. It is, I think the biggest difference for how from that framework you just describe and how we do stuff is that we would not end on what if this solves your problem? If I'm selling to a consumer? For me, the ideal framework of a sales conversation is gain the pain depen I don't alleviate the pain and the impact of it until you signed on.

00:29:25:08 - 00:29:42:18
Unknown
Unless I'm selling to a business, in which case now you do it because I can alleviate. Because then you can't sign now anyway. Yeah. So that's the differentiation. So that could work for selling a business. Like who else that your business is impacted by this. Okay. What if we solve this. Well now you're leaving them with the dopamine hit so that they can be like the problem could be solved.

00:29:42:20 - 00:30:06:09
Unknown
But I would never solve the pain emotionally. If you theoretically could make the decision right now until you've signed. And then I solve it after the decision because pain is a greater urgency driver than gain. And like too many salespeople, follow a framework like that when they're talking to someone who can make the decision. But you're alleviating the pressure of and how long has this been going on for?

00:30:06:11 - 00:30:25:20
Unknown
Doesn't it be a huge pain? And then they start painting the perfect picture after that? How great things could be. How life, how sunny the beaches are their next destination before they sign, and then they experience the relief of feeling like they need to solve this pain conversationally in their head, do I? You painted the picture and they're like, it sounds great, I love this.

00:30:25:20 - 00:30:42:18
Unknown
Let me get back to you. Pain drives urgency, and so I'm always in pursuit of urgency because if I build enough urgency, you just want to solve your pain now. And since I'm the one doing it, you will solve it with me. I don't have to worry about going with competitors or other offers, because I just drove enough urgency and I'm here in front of you.

00:30:42:18 - 00:31:03:22
Unknown
They're like, yeah, I want to solve right now. That's that's really good stuff right there. And I think it also makes me wonder about, you know, the, the, impact or importance of emotion, in this. And so, I mean, this is, you know, you getting somebody to verbalize or experience both the pain as well as kind of what it looks like on the other side.

00:31:04:04 - 00:31:28:23
Unknown
You're evoking an emotion response. I mean, how much are you coaching to your people to, you know, show up then with empathy and to evoke emotion? It's everything. And part of the reason for that is there have been studies on this. The part of the brain that makes decisions is the limbic system, which is where emotions are processed, and the neocortex, where we process language.

00:31:29:01 - 00:31:44:19
Unknown
The person listening to this is deciding if they agree with me or not. You know, when you show comps to a homeowner to consider it, when you're talking about numbers and repairs and next steps, you're dealing with the neocortex, which is actually not where decisions are made. Decisions are made in the part of the brain that processes emotions.

00:31:45:00 - 00:32:07:05
Unknown
So I want to stir the part that feels emotions that make the decision. And now I just like everyone knows this idea like people buy emotion, justify logically afterwards. People have heard that it is actually scientifically true when they did lobotomies on people or even there has been studies of people who had damage to the limbic system with a head injury they like can't get dressed in the morning, they can't figure out what to eat for breakfast.

00:32:07:05 - 00:32:27:14
Unknown
You cannot make decisions when the part of the brain that processes emotion is damaged and has nothing to do with the neocortex, it's a completely different thing. It's a different level of evolution. And so most salespeople are like they're showing numbers trying to convince them logically, hoping that that makes them feel certain enough that they take action now.

00:32:27:16 - 00:32:51:18
Unknown
But that's the problem with ending on gain. If you've talked about the pain, you solved the problem a little bit and then the neocortex like this is good, but they won't feel the urgency to solve the just to make that decision. Right now I'm right here. And so emotion is everything. Like here's a crazy fact. It's like I feel rushed is closer to a yes than I think I like this in terms of what your prospect gives you.

00:32:51:22 - 00:33:10:20
Unknown
They're showing it's the I call it the hidden cells matrix is like the language your prospect uses shows whether they're engaged with their neocortex or their limbic system. Now I feel a rush is closer to a no. It's closer to the decision. And they're showing a negative emotion that not liking it, but they're actually closer to a yes, I think I like this.

00:33:10:20 - 00:33:28:08
Unknown
Yeah, I think I think those numbers make sense. Shows they're ready to make a decision right now. And so it's our job as sales professionals to transition people out of the neocortex into the limbic system. So like one of the number one mistakes I see is that you'll hear you know, I think I need to think I need to think about this.

00:33:28:10 - 00:33:52:10
Unknown
And the salesperson will say, what do you need to think about, which is using the same language that they just used. They're telling you they're in the neocortex thing, respond with the neocortex response instead of, what would you even need to see to feel certain this was right for you to engage? Like our language is the tool to flip their brain, to start engaged back to feeling so they can feel the decision and make it right now.

00:33:52:12 - 00:34:14:20
Unknown
That's such a pretty powerful stuff. So emotion is everything. Like it's literally how they make decisions. So I'm always geared towards using emotional language, painting vivid imagery, using third party stories, creating FOMO like the pain of not taking action, doing all that stuff so people feel the decision. If they feel it, they can make it. Now. If they don't feel it, they might make it, but they're not going to make it right.

00:34:14:20 - 00:34:32:21
Unknown
Not they're gonna make it later when you're not there bothering them. Which is not a good way to run a sales process because we lose time, kills all deals. So the more time you create, the less effective your sales process. Yeah. I mean, one of the things I'm just taking from this, I just agree with 100% and it's so impactful.

00:34:32:21 - 00:34:55:13
Unknown
And I hope our listeners key into this too. It is that so much of this, to your point, is about listening and about understanding how people process both their feelings and their and their reasoning. And to use that to your advantage in sales, I'm not not in a manipulative way, but just to understand how to navigate the sales cycle most effectively for you and for the client.

00:34:55:13 - 00:35:22:04
Unknown
I think that's really cool. Exactly. I mean, to me, the know the difference between manipulation and influence is intent, right? It's like, am I actually am I influencing this homeowner to make the decision that they know they need to make and they just feel stuck? Like one of my favorite lines in the, most of our clients, not all, but most are still in the real estate investing space is the majority of our audience, and so much of our organic reach has come in that way.

00:35:22:04 - 00:35:45:11
Unknown
We train plenty of other people in other industries, but that's still the majority of our of our clientele. And one of my favorite, sort of rebuttals to the objection of they like the price, they like everything aligns, but they're just like, I'm just not sure they're just feeling stuck is if you had a friend who is in the same situation you were in, like, they they knew that.

00:35:45:11 - 00:36:00:12
Unknown
They know, you know, they needed to do this and they knew it like the price, the time, everything worked. But they just were just feeling stuck and we actually wouldn't take action on it, even though they knew it was right. Would you tell your friend to inspire them to take action on this if they, you know, they needed to do it?

00:36:00:14 - 00:36:14:20
Unknown
People have all the time in the world to give advice that they would not take. And it's like, oh, I tell them, you got to do this. Like, don't worry if the numbers work and everything works, like you just got to take action on this. You're like, stop, stop waiting. Like people engage with that especially longer in the sales conversation.

00:36:14:22 - 00:36:29:07
Unknown
We've built enough rapport that they engage with that way. And then we say, okay, how can I say, how can I be that same friend to you now and ask you that same same thing like, wow, yeah, you're right. Or like how, you know, how is this any different? And it's so key is they're using their own words.

00:36:29:07 - 00:36:50:13
Unknown
They're going to describe it in a way that actually impacts them, not their friends. Right. Because people aren't going to be like, well, which friend is it because they needed the message? They're friendly. No, they're going to answer how they need to hear it, which would be very different from how most salespeople would try and explain it. And so by getting them to verbalize how they would help a friend in that moment and then asking how can I be that same friend to you now and say that same thing to you?

00:36:50:15 - 00:37:09:09
Unknown
Or I don't see how this is different unless I'm missing something and let them be like, wow, you're right, I need to take my own advice. Let's do this is so profound because I didn't overcome the objection. I just asked them how you would overcome it. And then we'll always be more more impactful because it's your words on how you would overcome it.

00:37:09:14 - 00:37:41:21
Unknown
And so you'll believe it ten times more. And so that's one of my favorite things. And it's all about like understanding what drives people. Yeah. Understanding the emotion. Yeah. It requires a level of emotional maturity that I hadn't really thought about until you just said that. Which makes me wonder, like, are you finding, certain profiles of people, are there certain character traits or attributes that make an ideal salesperson and how you're going to coach an organization on building their sales team?

00:37:41:23 - 00:38:07:16
Unknown
How do we tap into more of what you're talking about? It's a really good question. Yeah. So where are you familiar with predictive index at all. Sure. Yeah. So if your audience does like for us the ideal salesperson is usually, a low driving maverick or a captain or potentially a promoter persuaded those social profiles. It's not that other profiles can't.

00:38:07:18 - 00:38:26:13
Unknown
So just want to be really clear. This is not a matter of effectiveness being able to do it, Steve, is not a social profile at all. He's an individualist through and through like he is so, so objective and antisocial and introverted. It doesn't have to do with people, but our desire to his desire to win is so great that it overrules all of that.

00:38:26:13 - 00:38:59:10
Unknown
That's what that's that's why he's at masterminds and doing that and hosting events. So he just wants to win so badly that he will be uncomfortable longer than other people like him. But it's really a matter of will this person be drained in this role? When I talked about the sales roller coaster and how to prevent that, there's some also some other additional things to look out for when I'm coaching an organization, which is that it's not just the hidden sales matrix of what the language your prospects say back to you to chose, whether or not they're ready.

00:38:59:12 - 00:39:16:15
Unknown
It's also the kind of like hidden costs on your salespeople of how drained they will be at the end of the day. But still, the way I sold solar much of the time, it's still, even though I engaged on the illness, still was kind of an excitement sale at the end. Like, should we see if we can get this designed to book this out and see if we can get it?

00:39:16:17 - 00:39:41:23
Unknown
So I got so many yeses, and then we try and get the design, but like, if I'm trying to be more excited than you and I get told no, that's very draining for the salesperson. Because even if you are embodying, I need this and celebrating activity, you still feel that, right? Yeah. So I try and train out like now I am either right or I make money and then I'm like, I don't even know if this is for you.

00:39:42:01 - 00:39:59:04
Unknown
And they're like, yeah, you're right, I'm not. So I'm either right. I put I sort of pulled away and pushed you away, or I get paid because you're like, no, no, no, I want this now. So to me that is now. You got to be careful with that, depending on the personality, how hard you push, but how I think about it, it's just introducing a hesitation.

00:39:59:08 - 00:40:19:02
Unknown
Right. Like I always have a confidence that what I am providing or selling is amazing, but I don't know if it's right for you. It's not. I don't know if this is a right, a good product or a good or a good company. That's the differentiation. So my I have it's the idea of like, you want your waiter have great faith in the restaurant, but to write the order down right.

00:40:19:02 - 00:40:34:17
Unknown
I don't want him to have this. Like I'll remember everything for these eight people. The steakhouse. I'm like, I'm not impressed by this. I'm nervous. You're going to forget what I said. All right. So we want him to have confidence in the quality of the food. But a hesitation, like double check the order. Like and you said you wanted that.

00:40:34:19 - 00:40:49:05
Unknown
You wanted that medium rare. Yeah. Okay. Make sure it made sure I had that right. That feeling of I'm confident in the food, but let me double check the order before I go back. That's what we want as salespeople to the clothes. It's like, I'm not sure this is right for you, even though I know this is an amazing thing.

00:40:49:11 - 00:41:10:10
Unknown
And then that adds a level of like resiliency because I'm not like, we got to get you signed up. Probably the most amazing thing. And they're like, no. And you're like, oh, that hurts. And so that's a kind of another hidden cost in sales process and training that can sometimes drain your sales floor at the end of the day, as opposed to because everyone just has bad days.

00:41:10:10 - 00:41:26:09
Unknown
It's just an inevitability. I have fewer than the average sales rep, but it still happens. And that I still remember the first time I had it in a while. I had two calls. Were both the leads were qualified? I didn't close either because a lot of them just like, all right, they just have the money for what I'm providing.

00:41:26:09 - 00:41:41:03
Unknown
And that's just sort of an inevitability. Sometimes. But when I was like, oh, there are both good fits, I didn't close. I was upset about that for like two weeks because it just happened so rarely to me. Let's see, was like Telluride and like, yeah, you couldn't close because I usually statistically with my close, my close ratio is like 55.

00:41:41:03 - 00:42:03:08
Unknown
I should have closed one of those. I was really bothered by that. Because I include that ratio includes people who are not a fit. So feeling having two people who were it bothered me. I bring that up of like making sure that your salespeople are not drained has to do with their personality type as well, because if they are deeply introverted, it's not that they can't close.

00:42:03:08 - 00:42:21:01
Unknown
In fact, sometimes extroverts have the problem of thinking. Sales is about talking, right? Right. And they feel like they got to tell you, oh, yeah, I got a little dog, too. It's like they don't want to hear about your dog. They want to talk about their dog. Right? That's not real rapport building. But at the balance of that because the introvert can understand that.

00:42:21:03 - 00:42:39:05
Unknown
But they might be more drained at the end of the day. So finding someone who can is okay with people and have has a level of resiliency and grit and you can get told no is it's it's harder. I don't always like to give specific designs on or prescriptions on personality types, because I know you can find great salespeople outside of it.

00:42:39:05 - 00:43:00:13
Unknown
I don't want people to restrict that way, but ultimately, if someone doesn't get energy from people, it will be drained in that role. You want some aspect of socialization, but it's often again in the metric. If you think about predictive index of like like we love Maverick, I mean, we don't love Mavericks. I'm a maverick. I like mavericks.

00:43:00:15 - 00:43:26:22
Unknown
We've had problems with mavericks in the past. The problem is when they're they're a they're like driving desire is super super independent. They basically unwatchable. All right is really tough for organizations. Yeah. So like finding almost all the personalities we like are not extremes in the personality. They kind of operate within tighter parameters because that is also more relatable to the most amount of people.

00:43:27:03 - 00:43:42:19
Unknown
That means they're not going to be like, no, I'm right, and I would rather be right in this moment than get sell. Like people have that sometimes too. If like, this guy has an opinion, he's wrong. I had to tell him. It's like, no you didn't. That's not the goal that got the win is the sale. It's not telling him he's wrong and then you don't get the sale.

00:43:42:21 - 00:44:08:05
Unknown
So figuring that out is always a balance. But for me, social people is the best thing you can do. And people who are coachable, a level of resiliency and then just have some some sales experience. It's very hard to hire someone with absolutely no sales experience. It's really, really hard. Yeah, you got you got to you will be very lucky to get someone with no sales experience to be good at your sales role, especially for most of your audience.

00:44:08:05 - 00:44:27:02
Unknown
If you work at Microsoft. Yeah, you got a whole different system that you can do all that, you know, but for most of the audience, if small business owners like hire people with some level of experience. And so that was the last thing I want to ask you is like, as a small business owner and you're going to stand up a sales team, you probably started off with the co-founder led sales.

00:44:27:02 - 00:44:48:04
Unknown
You've determined what works for you. How do you go about that? Do you recommend hiring a sales leader or kind of a, both leader, individual contributor, or where do you start? And, how do you make sure that you have the right things in place to even allow that first person to be successful as a sales person or as a sales leader either?

00:44:48:04 - 00:45:11:05
Unknown
I'm guess I'm curious which you would hire first. And what needs to be in place to feel comfortable with that hire? I think it would probably be irresponsible of me, for me to tell most small business owners to hire a sales leader before sales person, usually small business owners. By the time they're looking to hire, they need they need to be the sales leader because they probably can't afford a sales leader without salespeople like it.

00:45:11:05 - 00:45:33:16
Unknown
So it's be a weird thing to try and hire someone who's the managerial type. And realistically, you just need you need money. You need revenue coming through the door so you can pay a manager some base and some additional things. So unless you have unless you're like VC backed for the most part, if you take your money and you're up your business operations, you probably need to hire salespeople first.

00:45:33:18 - 00:45:53:17
Unknown
And the goal should probably be to hire a manager as soon as it makes sense. Affordability wise, unless you feel like you're good at it. Like the amount of business owners that are just not meant to be leading salespeople is over 99%. It's just very hard for all of them because first off, yeah, since people it's like managing them is like herding cats.

00:45:53:17 - 00:46:11:14
Unknown
And I say that as someone who's got such incredible love for salespeople and think they are the business, that they're the athletes of the business world, like they are the high performers, they drive revenue. They matter. They move the economy. I think it's an important role and I care about them. They're really hard to manage. At least good ones are right, like bad ones are a lot easier to manage.

00:46:11:19 - 00:46:31:12
Unknown
But the, the the good ones are really tough to manage. And you usually need a certain type of personality that spends a lot of time not necessarily micromanaging and babysitting, but making sure that they know how to deliver the message for each individual person. Because one high performer might need to hear a different message and another high performer.

00:46:31:14 - 00:46:50:10
Unknown
Yeah. And so yeah, you can probably need to the sales, the business owner probably needs to invest a little bit in themselves to get better at leadership skills. And then probably hire 2 to 3 sales people. And if you're lucky, maybe you find someone you can promote internally. But I also hesitate to recommend that because it's challenging to.

00:46:50:13 - 00:46:54:04
Unknown
Yeah, most people.

00:46:54:06 - 00:47:13:21
Unknown
Promote their top performer. And what makes you a top sales person? First off, now you lose that top performer from selling. And also what makes them them is I often and aspect of I don't want to say selfishness, but like solipsism and self focus, that is not a leadership skill. Like I get asked all the time. Just being good sales doesn't make you better at leadership.

00:47:13:21 - 00:47:39:22
Unknown
I'm like it can cause sales as communication, but it doesn't by default, right? So it can, but it does not on its own. It's a different type of communication. Convincing you, so to speak. Convincing, inspiring you to want to take action with me for whatever it is I'm selling is not the same type of communication as inspiring. You know, an employee under you to make more calls or different levels of communication.

00:47:40:00 - 00:48:00:22
Unknown
How we train sales is more around the deeper type of communication that you can use different ways, but all in all, it is rarely exactly the same thing. And so probably hiring salespeople first and investing in yourself to become a better leader, to be able to manage them until you can outsource that particular role to just manage the manager.

00:48:01:00 - 00:48:22:04
Unknown
I agree wholeheartedly with that. My experience has been oftentimes the best salesperson is not the best sales manager, and almost never, I'm I'm not a great manager. Like I consider myself a decent leader. There's more work to be done in leadership, but for what it takes to manage salespeople, I don't have the patience for that. Right.

00:48:22:04 - 00:48:45:01
Unknown
So it's like and I'm aware of that now because I've, I've been the manager of this of our sales teams like twice throughout the, the time I've been here and both times I was like, this is not yeah, this is not for me. This is meant to be a short term solution until we can get someone in. So I can step in and performatively care about the minor details of micromanaging their personal lives and what they're doing.

00:48:45:01 - 00:49:11:14
Unknown
But overall, I know my skill set is not best served managing versus maybe leading from the front in different ways, like there's different levels of leadership. So managing is a very particular skill. Most salespeople famously have terrible managers, and the reason is because they were promoted salespeople. Like, that's the reason, not because managers are bad, because how salespeople end up being how there are often managers in sales departments is they promoted salespeople.

00:49:11:19 - 00:49:33:07
Unknown
They're different skills. And so they were poorly managed, and then they got promoted. And they've never had a good manager. So they modeled their bad manager. It's just it's a cycle of abuse that continues for forever. Ultimately, it's a lot easier to hire for them as totally separate roles, and so get the sales teams to bring in revenue first so that you can afford a manager in some way, shape or form.

00:49:33:08 - 00:49:58:23
Unknown
Great advice. Totally agree. How can people find more about you and get connected if they're looking for sales training? Yeah. So I'm the host of the Close More Sales podcast, Close More sales. You can find that on YouTube wherever you listen to podcasts, Apple Podcasts or Spotify on Instagram. I am vivid selling via Vivid Selling. That is the framework I designed.

00:49:58:23 - 00:50:20:04
Unknown
It was designed for high ticket sales in particular, but it's realistically, a framework. It's an acronym on getting someone to feel inspired to want to take action and feel like it was their idea. So it works very well for high ticket sales. There's an aspect of it that's left out a little bit with, negotiating down a property if anyone listening to call is doing that.

00:50:20:04 - 00:50:37:11
Unknown
But it's still a very powerful framework to get someone take action. So reach out to me on Instagram. I check that all the time, even though I also have a team that looks at it. So. But that's the easiest way to get Ahold of me. Awesome. Thanks so much for, sharing all this knowledge. I think there's a ton of good takeaways out of this conversation, and I greatly appreciate it.

00:50:37:13 - 00:50:47:07
Unknown
If you found value in this, make sure you subscribe or, share this with a friend or colleague that can also get some value from this podcast. Thanks again. My pleasure.