How To Become The Firm Clients Call When Everything Is Going Wrong with Darryl Petticrew

In this episode Craig speaks with Darryl Petticrew, Director at Lancia Consult, a firm known for stepping into transformation programmes at the exact moment others step out. When projects stall, when plans unravel, when teams lose confidence, Lancia is the first call. This conversation explores why.

Darryl spent more than fifteen years in major consulting firms before joining Lancia, drawn by its entrepreneurial culture and its obsession with real impact. 

We explore the realities of transformation work in 2025. Darryl explains why co creation beats traditional delivery, why capability transfer is now a core differentiator and why the firms that win today are those willing to take ownership while working on the client’s side of the desk.

Consultancy leaders will also hear a candid breakdown of the hidden fragility in growing consultancies and how to fix it. Darryl shares the warning signs inside firms that look successful on the surface but are operationally vulnerable. Over dependence on rainmakers. Decision making slowed by hierarchy. A small cluster of clients carrying the revenue. Teams stretched across delivery with no capacity for growth. These weaknesses tend to appear just as revenues rise.

Craig and Darryl explore how resilience is built. How trust creates speed. How the boutique advantage becomes real. And what it actually looks like to lead when your client has run out of answers.

In this episode you will learn

• Why boutique consultancies win transformation work the big firms lose
• How to build trust quickly in high pressure environments
• What programme recovery teaches about leadership, ownership and clarity
• The hidden fragility in growing consultancies and how to fix it
• How co creation and capability transfer create long term client loyalty
• Why clients drop big four firms for smaller teams that can deliver fast
• How to position your consultancy as the first call when a project turns red

For consultancy leaders facing a tougher market, this is a clear playbook for building a firm that clients trust with their hardest problems. Human. Fast. Under pressure. And impossible to replace.

Host Craig Herd
Guest Darryl Petticrew

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Consultancy Growth Podcast with Craig Hurd. Join us for strategic insights and candid conversations with industry experts and seasoned consultancy founders. Discover what really drives success. Subscribe now and fast track the growth of your consultancy today.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Hi and welcome to the Consultancy Growth Podcast. My name's Craig Hurt. In this episode, I'm joined by Darryl Pentagrew, director of Lancier Consulting, a firm that is quietly building a reputation for fixing transformation programs when they go somewhat off the rails. Darrell spent more than 15 years in large consultancy firms before joining Lancier, drawn by its entrepreneurial culture and appetite for real impact. We talk about what makes a smaller, boutique, founder-led consultancy like Lancia so effective, faster decisions, closer client relationships, and the freedom to shape the business as it grows. We also go deep on the misconceptions around transformation, why most failures aren't necessarily down to the strategy or technology, but often around the misunderstanding of the people, the processes, the local realities of business. Darrow explains why Lancia's approach to co-create capability transfer and work on the client side of the desk creates lasting change long after they've left the building. We also talk about program recovery when consultancies like Lancia are brought in and called in to rescue stalled transformations and what that teaches about building trust fast, leading on pressure, and balancing commercial goals with genuine investment in the client success. For consultancy leaders, there's a lot here. How to spot fragility even in a growing consultancy firm, how to build resilience beyond a few rainmakers, how to use AI intelligently to deliver transformations that stick. But if you're running a consultancy in 2025 going into 2026, this is a conversation. Human, fast, and built on trust. If you get value from this episode, I would encourage you to subscribe. You get brand new episodes before anyone else. But without further ado, here is Daryl Pentacrew, Lancia Consulting. Let's get into it. Well, why don't we start with how you got into the business?

SPEAKER_02 2:20

So I've been a in consultancy for about 15 plus years and spent a lot of time in big consulting business. Was very happy there, loved it, and got approached by Lancia. Had never heard of Lancia Consult. And I went along out of curiosity to find out what it was about, who was involved, and was sold a dream, I think, is the way I put it. Um it sounded like a really great business to work in, very much a startup environment. That sort of vibe, like there was lots to do, and that really appealed to me. Because when you're in a big consulting firm, you kind of get lost in the scale of the business and you're so far away from the real action. Whereas Atlantia, what I heard was you're close to the action, you're helping to grow the business, you're involved in decision making, you're shaping the future of what we do. And I had a conversation with Nicola Adam, who's on our board, and uh I was sold in terms of what we wanted to do as a business, how we work with clients, which was different from what I'm used to, that really appealed to me and it tickled my itch for getting stuck in to grow a business, not just doing the consulting stuff, um, growing something organically and something that's relatively immature in that sense. You know, 13 years old, Lancy is A baby almost comparably to some of the other big firms out there. And uh yeah, that's two and a half years ago now that I made the jump and haven't looked back and absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

That's good. And I would imagine then if that's the the culture that's been laid out, it uh attracts a lot of people similar to yourself, this startup scrappy, uh EBE kill kind of attitude, maybe to growth. Is that has that been the experience?

SPEAKER_02 3:45

It has been, and we we're going through quite a lot of growth at the minute with the team, particularly around the mid to senior layer. And what we're finding is that people are coming from those bigger firms wanting something different, not the traditional sense of how consulting operates. Um so when they hear about us, they come along and uh and the way we approach recruitment is not the I sit down and ask you a bunch of questions. It's it's almost a conversation, I get to know you. I want to talk to people about Lancia as much as I want to hear about how they can come and add to our culture and add to what we're trying to build, learning the lessons from the great stuff at the big firms and the stuff that maybe they would like to change. And there's opportunity to do that at somewhere like Lancia. And I think that appeals to people nowadays. Um and the way that we operate with our clients is slightly different than the large consulting firms delivering those big global programs and throwing a bunch of bodies at it. Whereas we just don't have the luxury to throw 50, 100 people at stuff. So people are naturally in more strategic roles when they're with us and they're right there in front of clients day in, day out, and they're wearing about a million caps in terms of how do we grow our talent, how do we do business development, how do we make this a really great place to work and because people spend so much time and work. We want to enjoy it. And I genuinely love going to work because I like the people, I like the culture, I like that we're not a hierarchical business that's takes a million miles up the chain to make decisions. Things happen quickly. Uh, and sometimes you don't see that elsewhere.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

It's funny, I was speaking to a consultant, say they've been going 25 years, and they've got really good client retention and really good team retention. And I was asking what's the recruitment and retention strategy, and they said during the interview process, we take them for a pub lunch or something like that. But a social is part of the process, and they say formality drops away, and it's normally towards the end where they think this person could be right, but formality drops away and they get to know the real person, and it becomes more about the cultural fit at that stage. And they said that's become part of the process. So I think cultural fit has become more and more important rather than just your experience and your CV.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

I actually think one of the areas that we focus on is less so culture fit more around culture ad because we're a we're a growing business. We the the business I joined two and a half years ago is a different business than it is today because we've brought additional people in. The we've moved offices, even the physical environment sometimes changes your ways of working. Our office in Belfast, very different to our office in Bristol, very different to our office in London, um, and our office in Singapore. So we try to focus on what you can bring to the business that adds to the culture and makes this even better. Because the culture fit thing I struggle with. But we don't want to be too static where people have to fit into a particular now. We have standards, obviously, but we don't want people just to fit into a business because it's going to change in three months. That's just how quickly that it's moving.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, I I guess the downside of thinking of it through the lens of cultural fit is you're the same as today as you are 25 years from now because you're just filtering for people like us. But I I guess what you're saying is we're open to evolve and change and develop, but it's through the people that we bring in. And actually speaking to founder Jeff, that was what he explained to me as well. Is he says we're forever like he's really open to it changing and evolving and looking different than it does today. So great. And then talking about transformation, what do you think the biggest misconception consultancies have about transformation work?

SPEAKER_02 6:58

I don't want to oversimplify how difficult transformation is, because it's hard. But for the most case, there's almost a playbook for any type of transformation. There's a way to do things and a step-by-step of whether it's a ERP implementation or you're looking at regulatory change and how that impacts your business processes. There's a step-by-step of how you do those things. But what I think the the biggest misconception is and often overlooked is understanding where the real complexity is, and that's in the business itself. So the transformation will happen, but it depends on how much time you spend understanding the business that you're working with in, the little nuances and the ways of working, how decision making is done, how the team like to work, the skills and capabilities that they have today, what is the strategy, where are they now and where do they want to go in the future? And how does the transformation help facilitate that is the bit that often gets missed. And that makes life a lot more difficult once you're in the mix of the transformation, when you're trying to design stuff. And if you're working on a global stage, which we often do, those little local nuances as well get overlooked. And if you don't factor those in early and getting that understanding, it makes life way more difficult down the line when you're at the point where you're trying to hand things over and look at adoption. So if you fail to do that upfront work, and sometimes we don't have the opportunity to do that, but if you fail to do that to an extent, then you're setting yourself up to fail in the midst of the transformation because you'll get halfway through and something won't fit, or what you've designed and what you're building won't meet the needs of the actual business. And I think when you we talk about transformation is driven by strategy, that is true and that's a given. But getting in the weeds is the part that I think people miss and kills them in the long run.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

That's interesting. So the strategy is important, that's a given, but it's the detail and understanding of the people and understanding the culture of business and even the location in which the business sits, like the the country. All of that is what makes, I guess, the kind of high-level whiteboard strategy actually work. Is that kind of what we're saying?

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Yeah, I believe that. And I've seen it happen where you get to the point where you're starting conversations with different countries around a new system you're putting in place and you run into all sorts of nightmares because you haven't thought through the design of those processes. Even the legal requirements are different, regulatory requirements are different. And so if you're building something that doesn't fit with those things as a basic, then you're already up against it. But then if you forget about the nuances around the ways of working and the people side of things and how they do things, then you're setting yourself up to have a very challenging period of time in the middle of the transformation. I think that there's complexity within every transformation. And I don't think I've ever worked on a project or an engagement that has always gone to plan. Um, I guess as consultants, we try to get ahead of ourselves around what might happen, but don't do the upfront bit very well at times around the before we even start thinking about design. What questions do we need to ask the business? How do we get familiar with how this business works? How do we horizon scan when we're embedded in the business to really understand and be properly invested in this rather than just come in and go, right, we're here to do this straight into workshopping, straight into design, let's go build and configure, and then run into a massive roadblock.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Yes. Okay. And so your team works across digital data and AI, people in ops from one million to five million consultancy, is that right? In the Roundup Ballpark, yeah, for Europe. Which um which of those should they prioritize and why?

SPEAKER_02 10:23

I think it's easy to just jump straight to the AI bit, isn't it? Um people love it right now, but for me, AI is almost the last stop that the people need to get to. There's so much that needs to happen before that. And the the one constant is that there's going to be a people and process element to everything that we do. So I think if if I was setting up a brand new consultancy, that's the easiest route in because there are constant challenges around how efficient people are working, productivity. There's significant pressure in the market at the minute around cost efficiency. And that all starts with getting capability, talent, and good, robust processes in place that actually make a difference to the human. So it's not the old clunky step-by-step. It's a how do we embed automation? How do we use AI as a way to deliver better for our business and for their customers and clients? So the the AI and tech bit is woven into that stuff. And like Lance A Consult a generalist consulting firm, we focus on business and tech transformation. Um, I'm not a technical expert, but I know enough about transformation to be able to lead those transformations from start to finish and what the common roadblocks are along the way. Um and I think having that generalist view where you I think at the minute the market is looking for more experience and capability and industry level deep knowledge, um, which is a big challenge for consultancy at the moment. Um, but having a generalist view of how to do transformation uh and programs is a benefit because you can apply that to most cases. And I'm a pretty practical person in that sense. Like it's you you walk into a business, the first thing you do is get to understand how they work and their business. The next thing you do is to look at where the big pain points are and how you can come in and add value in those areas, and then you direct the transformation in that space. That's that's a human thing, right? So it's not driven by digital transformation, it's not driven by a brand new system. And people often get distracted by those things. They see the shiny AI large language model, they see the new system and they think that's going to solve the problem. The problem is more often than not in other areas of the business before you even get to the point where a brand new system is going to really drive value for that client.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yes. I've heard AI being described as a chaos creator. If you start with AI because it's a shiny object, it's the exciting thing, is you're going, well, well, here's AI, how do we implement it into our business? And here's all the things it can do. And instead, actually, you want to focus on your fundamentals and your people and your process, etc., and then go, what of this could be improved by the likes of AI rather than where do we squeeze it in? So yeah, you're I think your point's right. And then you've said that transformation isn't just about change, but it's also about delivery. What's the secret to making transformation stick, especially in say smaller firms?

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Yeah, I think this is this is a tough one. And you all the stats around how many transformations or projects feel 70 plus percent to deliver all the desired outcomes. Um and I think where transformation sticks is like we said, the strategy linked to transformation is a given. Building adoption early into the program is a given. Like that's a non-negotiable. If you don't do that early in the life cycle of any transformation, it's going to make the end very, very difficult and it's going to impact how you build and design or do whatever you're doing. And so I think those are two non-negotiables as part of transformation. I guess the the other area that I think that we commonly come up against at Atlantic around how we do transformation well is around co-creation. The old school model for consulting was I'm the expert and I'm going to come and I'm going to deliver for you. And the way that we approach it, Atlancia, is different to that. And the way the market is asking for transformation is different. It's about co-creating, working together. And at Atlancia, we talk about working on the client side of the desk. So dump your Atlancia badge once you get through the door. You embed yourself in the team and work with the team because it's not about creating dependency anymore. It's about creating knowledge transfer and capability within the business that we work so that when we walk away, that the transformation that you deliver actually sticks. And that as part of the adoption process, the team are ready to kind of take that on into BAU. And when I walk away from it, that it's there and they're not heavily reliant on someone like me. Right. Um, so it's about creating that level of capability and working together with the client. One of the best projects I ever did was with a large retail client, and it was really tough. But where it worked well is that we we had a one-to-one with the client and the co-creation was genuine. It wasn't just on paper that we're going to co-create, but really we're just going to do it and you're going to just take it. Um, it was more okay, designing this, we do this together. Here's our unique perspective because we work across a ton of industries. We've seen and done this before, and we can bring that to the table. And it's really relevant. But what's more relevant is how you apply that to the environment that you're in. So that's why the co-creation is important. The people that we work with on the client side, they know their business way better than us. We might think we do. And we do have good insights to bring to the table, but they know the day and daily of the operations, how it works, how things run. So without having that in a transformation, I think it becomes more difficult. It's not impossible, but I think that's where a lot of the conversations I'm having at the minute, clients would love to get to is that true collaborative partnership approach where you're working hand in glove with each other to deliver a really positive outcome for the business rather than just delivering something to someone else.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Yes. It seems to be, I think across all consultancy, it seems to be the trend of maybe in days gone by, or you know, very much still in certain organizations, you might even say the the likes of the big four. The business motto is oversimplified, is we're we're very intelligent people and we have all the answers that you might need regarding XYZ subject, you're gonna pay us for these answers. And it it might be influenced by uh the limitations of a business model like that, where eventually you're gonna get fed up of paying for answers. It might be the increased use of uh AI, chat GBT that can spit out an answer, even if it's not the answer. And so you go, well, this stuff is readily available and that's only improving. But uh the desire of uh consultancy clients across the board seems to be an improvement implementation. How do we take this intelligence, you know, this experience that you have, and marry it with our business and our knowledge, and how do we create lasting change? It's the big complaint of consultancies, they're gonna come in and say intelligent things, leave, and we're gonna be just as we were. So yeah, that co-creation I think is really key. And I think it's the future proofing of consultancies. If you can get really good at that, I think why would you ever not work with a consultancy on that? If you can work in partnership, you can get more than you could ever get internally.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Yeah. Yeah. And I am not interested in in that whole we do something, it goes on the shelf and it sits there forever. We talk about being invested in our clients, and maybe it's not a healthy thing, but I sometimes become obsessive around how we can help our clients. And and I think that's that's a good thing because it isn't about doing the doing and then walking away and then getting the phone call six months later and saying, Daryl, we need your help because we couldn't do this. It's more about leaving that lasting capability there so that whoever you work with can take what we've done together and none of it.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

I know what you mean though. And uh whether it's a fault or not, I'm not sure, but it's definitely something I experience or struggle with is their worries become my worries, you know. I think I think some of the best consultancies we come across are like that, where they they go they care as much as the business about their outcomes. There is a kind of you can't you can't sustainably worry about everybody. But uh I'd rather be probably that side of it than disconnected and charging per paper per you know in the report. You know. Um and coming on to tech and systems, so consultancies often founders, leadership often avoid heavy investment, tech investment, out of fear of become overcomplicated and it'll kill their culture, perhaps. I mean, when do clients you know knock at your door? What's the trigger event or frustration where they would they would call on yourselves?

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Yeah. The market at the minute's pretty tough. There's less of an appetite to knock at the door. So there's balance that we've got to get right because we've got some really solid relationships with a bunch of clients, and the knock at the door is more often from them than it is from somebody fresh. So we've got to get the balance between delivering really great stuff for our clients, and that we say that you know good work leads to more work, which happens pretty regularly, and that's where you see high conversion. But then it's the the other piece where that kind of looks after itself. We put a lot of effort into tactically how do we work with our clients to understand what's on their agenda and how do we position ourselves in such a way that Lancy is front of mind when they think, ah, I'm really struggling to solve this one. Why don't I give Daryl a call or whoever from Lanceia? If you're in that place, that's the sweet spot you want to be in. On the other side, when you're looking at fresh bodies through the door and a new business, that is more about the marketing and sales coming together and how do you pitch yourself in a way that's relevant for some of those and an appropriate level, right? So, you know, there's some the businesses and organizations that might be slightly out of reach. And we talk about having your dream client and your dream project, and it's good to have those dreams, but where we try and keep ourselves in check is what's most realistic for us to go after in that space. And I think where we're regularly brought into projects is around program recovery. When something's not going well, clients will knock at the door and they'll they'll come and ask for our help. And that's on all sorts of scales. So at the moment we're delivering a large project where we're facing off against another big consulting firm. And the client has brought us in through a relationship that we had previously with one of these stakeholders that have moved into this business. And thankfully, we did great stuff in their last place. And I said, Why don't we bring Lancy in? Because I think that they can, if we place them in strategic points and across the project, they can help with the recovery because it was over budget, taking too long, not hitting all the requirements, all the usual stuff. And we're brought in to bring it back to green, as as we like to say. And I think that's probably one of the biggest drivers is where you've got so far when the clients go, ah, we need help with this, bring Lancy in to bring it back on track. And and I say we're very good at doing that recovery piece, which often involves tough decisions around how you're approaching things and maybe changing some some significant changes to that as well. So I think that's a big bit. And what I love about what we do is uh, and this came up very recently with one of our clients that we work with before is he said we wouldn't work with any other consultancy. And I was like, Yes, can you can we get that on the website? U and why was that? And it's nothing like all consultancy firms tend to do the same stuff, right? Offer the same services, uh package it up in a way that makes sense for the client. And Jeff actually talks about this. How we work is where capability meets attitude, and that attitude piece is so important for clients because they've seen consultancy, they know what it entails. Sometimes they don't like seeing consultants, but when we come into the room, we approach it in a very different way. I talked about already the client side of this thing, but it's the attitude to it, it's the curiosity we have, and we're not afraid to ask the stupid questions, right? Because I think that's a big problem with consultants that they think they should know all the answers, and it's it's not always the case. And being curious is important, it's part of that.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Well, yeah, I think those consultancies that are more focused on solving problems and helping find resolution for problems created have that longevity with clients rather than we are the smartest and you know, secretly looking up answers they don't know. I think I think it's recognition that it's a human business. Uh the expectation need not be that you're impervious and you're without gaps in your knowledge. Much preferred is well, if you could just help me solve this problem, but you know, I care less about how we get there if you can help us. And it's interesting you say that Lanciere is part of that recovery. Is that often the case that you know that was that was work that you put a proposed? In four or tender four, and it wasn't one, and they come back to you, or is that it they've never heard of you except for in that recovery phase?

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Sometimes it's a mix where we'll have had a conversation with a client, and and I think this is a really important part of any consultancy firm is you're there to help with the discovery and be a part of that journey. Sometimes that leads to work, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes they'll ask for a proposal and that's ever going a different direction. We want to try this ourselves. And then if they come back to us, they're we're more than willing to help. And that does happen. And then sometimes it is fresh where people will come to us and they know that that's one of our like is I lead our digital transformation practice. And front and center of that is program recovery, and it's one of the big services we do. But we try not to position ourselves through just the service lens because and your point around problem solving is really relevant. That's what we base everything we do on is well, what are the problems that we're trying to help our clients solve? Do we have a right to help them solve those problems? If we don't, then we're honest with ourselves and we say, okay, that's not for us. But if we do and we have the capability and the experience, then we focus on the problem rather than focusing on a solution that we could bring in. So program recovery is essentially where you're going in to find where's the problem and how do we help you fix it. And sometimes that is in the upfront design where there's been a miss somewhere and they've gone into building a piece of software and it's gone wrong because they got the design wrong. Sometimes it's bad decision making or lack of governance, and sometimes it's capability. There's many reasons, but we don't go in with this is why. We go in, we're gonna help you find out why. And that's gonna take time. And you've got to be brave enough to stop and take the time to find out where the problem is because in the long run, it's gonna save you money, it's gonna make you more efficient, and it's gonna give you a better outcome at the end. Um so that time spent is really worthwhile. So we we try to focus on the problem rather than the we've got this shiny service that we can come in and deliver for you because it's just it doesn't work that way. And it if you do it that way, you're kind of trying to buy the book, take something off the shelf, and throw it into an organization that might not even be ready for it, or it might not be relevant to.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Yes, it's funny, it's something that yourselves and ourselves have in common. Is that is we often get called in when the marketing effort or sales effort has failed, and either they've worked with a marketing agency for six months, two years, whatever it is, spent more than they made, and then uh normally back away from that and and kind of try it for themselves for six months and then and then often we get a call of going, okay. So can we try this again? Maybe a smarter approach. And it's often that is where it failed before is not necessarily in the tactics or the detail, it's the lack of detail. Because it's just in in marketing anyway, it's often just a collection of stuff. They were doing webinars, podcasts, whatever, without any real thought. And so we're often brought in at that stage of okay, we do we do want to grow, we we need a systemized methodology here. How do we do it? And it's taken them back a bit to what's the goal, the objective. Um but it's uh it's funny how it it's that in common. Uh and coming on to building resilience is a key topic I want to talk about. And you know, not just results. You know, Lance here talks a lot about balance and speed and safety, transformation and trust. You know, how can a founder or leader of a consultancy know when their consultancy is operationally fragile, even if revenue is growing, say?

SPEAKER_02 25:15

In that scenario, I think that there's some telltale signs where things are maybe a little bit too fragile or there's limited resilience. And that is where revenue is reliant on one or two people. They're the driving force, they're bringing in new clients selling all of the work. And if that happens and some of those people decide to move on or they take a dip, then that's going to have a pretty heavy impact. So the reliance on one or two senior people in the business is not where you want to be. And as a founder, I think that if that's a place you're in, then it's looking at how do you spread the load a bit. And before we started, we talked about capacity as a big challenge for smaller consultancy firms. As they're growing, you're trying to do everything. And uh the leadership team may be spending a lot of time doing delivery or doing internal stuff. And then they're also trying to be out there networking, selling work, understanding their clients' problems, and that can create all sorts of bottlenecks and challenges. But if your revenue is growing, that's a great place to be in. And if there's lack of resiliency, then it's probably within the fact that you're relying on a small group of people to get things off the ground, or where you're reliant on a smaller cohort of clients. So where there's maybe one or two or three clients that are bringing in 80% of your revenue, you don't want to be in that place because if one of those things falls away, then it has a fairly material impact on the performance for the year. And it creates a lot of really challenging scenarios if that is the case. And I'm sure most consultancy firms, big and small, have come across that where they've taken a big hit and you're almost in recovery mode then where you're thinking, okay, right, what do we need to do to get this back on track? And then all of a sudden people are scrambling around. We've got to be out there doing more new business work, right? Let's double down on our accounts, our other accounts, what's going on there, how can we get in front of more people? And you're reacting rather than being proactive. I think one of the things that we've been talking about over the past 12 months is how do we be more proactive in that planning so that we're not sitting back and relying on a small group of people or a small set of clients to bring in most of the revenue. It is about spreading the load and not just in the leadership team. You elevate some of your management team to come in and support that process and then diversifying the revenue streams. So, right, we're spending a lot of time on our current accounts, which is really important. But then also, what are we doing to better position ourselves in the market so that we aren't just reliant on those that cohort?

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Yes. We were speaking about it before the recording, but I was in with a private equity firm this morning that invests in specifically professional services and consultancies. And what they were saying is they're typically brought in when the founders are exiting. And it's the kind of first phase, it's maybe five million in revenue, whatever it is. And founders are looking to exit, looking to take some of the money off the table. And when they're assessing the consultancy and the strength of it, their valuation will be not just on the growth and the size and all these other factors, but it's well, if we take, you know, Finder John out, what does the business look like after John? And they will take a much larger share of the pie if John is the rainmaker. Or John and Jane are the rainmakers. And actually, when new money gets involved in the consultancy, when the private equity are part of it, their next goal is not only growth, because they need to grow. It's institutional money typically, but they need to grow through a system. It can't just be we're gonna add more Johns, because if you add more Johns, add more Janes, you've got the same reliance on a slight fewer people, it's just a large amount of people, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:31

Yeah, exactly. And I think the timing of that founder stepping back is is so important. And I think at points when founders are struggling with this, you want the business to be self-sufficient. There's always gonna be a rule for that person to come in at different points in time when needed. And I think that's that timing piece is so critical because you step away too early, things fall flat, or if you take too long, then you're almost stepping on the toes of the leadership team that you're trying to empower to get the work done on your behalf. So the timing's really important there. And again, as we've grown over the past two and a half years, how that's worked has evolved and changed, and where we bring Jeff in and utilize him to help with certain things has changed and his focus is changing as well. So it's it's an interesting concept. And I think not to say that we're we're perfect, but I think we're always learning about how we can do that better.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Sometimes it's about the system and the structure of the business and roles and responsibilities and things like that. Sometimes it's the desire of the founder. Often they'll say, you know, I I need to be removed from the day-to-day. That's their words, but their actions are you know, they're still there's still every client big client meeting and they're still very much uh positioning themselves as the room to sometimes I don't think this is the case with Jeff, but um sometimes it is the case of you know, they're keeping themselves stuck to some degree. Systems are there, they just they just don't want to don't want to step back.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

Some clients love that though. Like you wheel out the founder and uh bring them along to the big meetings, and that's a really important thing for some clients. And that's what I mean by we pick our moments where uh Jeff is really, really proactive and still he's heavily involved in in how we shape the business. But again, it's how do we utilize because me having a conversation with a CEO is a very different conversation than Jeff coming in who started the business, has that pure entrepreneurial spirit, significant amount of experience in doing this stuff. So it's a really valuable asset for us. If you think back to two and a half years ago when I joined, how Jeff was involved versus now, it's definitely different in terms of the day-to-day, but we're being more strategic. And Jeff's great at that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Well, yeah, I mean, compliment to Jeff, you know, all I've really heard him talk about is the future and his vision and how things are changing and how things are evolving and what's working and what he's learned from what didn't work. And I think that's a great position for an entrepreneurial founder to be in. That's the ling to stay. So coming back to resilience a little bit, I mean, when you are embedded with clients, what are the first signs that the leadership needs support or systems or or rather the supports and systems that they have in place are under stress?

SPEAKER_02 30:56

The common one it just takes too long because a lot of decision making is sitting with some senior person in the business. And I think more and more now that's becoming a problem because things are moving much quicker than they were before. So the pace of decision making needs to be fast. And if that decision making is constantly going to one person at the top of the table, then there's a problem in the business because well, either there's the fair factor of if I make a decision, I'm in trouble because if it's the wrong thing, then the person at the top of the table is not going to be very happy, or the person at the top of the table just wants to have a lot of control and that becomes very unsustainable over the long term. So I think that's probably one of the big people areas of the business of class that we work in that you notice that some of the leadership are really struggling with, where there's a bottleneck created because decision making is a problem. And like I work a lot in financial services, so super regulated, and there's almost rules for how decisions are made, which can be challenging, but there's ways to make those more efficient and empower specific people within the business. Like you're employing people to do that, right? You're employing people to run the business. So if you're not giving them that authority to make decisions on the right stuff with the right other people around the table, then there's something broken.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

What's the Steve Jobs quote? I'm gonna butcher it, but it's the mistake to make is to hire smart people and then tell them what to do. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I think that's probably one of the biggest areas that I see because the work that we're doing, we're constantly trying to push change. Change requires tough decisions. And if they're all sitting in one place in a queue, then it slows down the pace of change, which inevitably costs in the long run.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Yes. And and I mean your team often can support client through major change. You touched on it there before. But how do you keep people front and center in that?

SPEAKER_02 32:37

From a client point of view, this is a really interesting one because when people see consultants walk in the room, they automatically uh in most cases think, oh no, there's gonna be some headcount reduction here. I don't trust them, and I'm fearful of engaging in the process. And that is a huge barrier at times. And that's what I said earlier was around leaving the badge at the door. And we put people front and center of our business because we don't have anything to sell without having people to do great work. And when we go into clients, we focus on the relationship over things like revenue. And the reason we do that is we focus on building those really good relationships at all layers of the business, then the other stuff just comes naturally as part of it. You know, more work will come, revenue will come. But putting people front and center, I think up front is about building trust and credibility. When Lancia comes into a room, the people are a lot of the time unfamiliar with our business. And we've got really solid big consulting built big four heritage through the people that we have. But walking into a room with one of those big four badges is different than Lancia. So we have a big uphill battle around building trust quick, building credibility quick. And I mentioned this a couple of times because it is so important to us is we spend time getting to know how our clients work and what makes them tick. And that makes us more relevant than others because we truly understand and we're really invested genuinely in how the business works. I think if people see that level of investment into what we're trying to achieve, then that makes a huge difference in terms of the levels of trust that we have. And we can turn around things pretty quickly in terms of our credibility. So by matching that understanding with capability and experience, you're able to build trust pretty quickly because people see, okay, they get us, they've got really great experience in doing this, and they're working with us to help help us solve these big problems.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

It's an interesting thing because this may or may not be true, but it feels true is that uh trust and speed seem really, really close or really connected. So if there's no trust, nothing but skepticism and and fear you know from the client feeling like they're under the spotlight or being judged, or who are these people that think they know better, whatever the feelings are. If the trust is low, then speed is inevitable. It feels like speed is inevitably going to be much slower because everything's been challenged, nothing has been taken on face value, can't just move on and get on with it. You have to build that trust first. I mean, how do you kind of in the weeds of things, working with clients? How do you think about trust and speed? And how do you gain trust or ensure a certain level of trust quickly?

SPEAKER_02 34:56

I think trust is built by being genuine, in my experience and practical. And we're a very practical business in that sense where I might be here to do this one thing, but I'm also invested in everything else that's going on around me. So I'll look for those little opportunities to help you in this space as well as what I'm brought in to do for you, because that shows that I'm going above and beyond. And I I I do genuinely get interested in that stuff where I see, oh, I've noticed that the team is working in this way and you're trying to design OKRs. We have you done that before. No, we haven't. Well, but I have. I can give you some advice around how I've done it in different places, and people really value that because it's tangible, immediate, and it's a real problem that they have, and you're there to add value. So I think part of it is not just coming along and being super focused on all right, commercially, we're here to do this project. We're not looking outside of it. That model of consultancy, in my view, is dead. If you're not looking how you can help in horizon scan, then you're in a bad place. So I think that horizon scanning piece is important. And then the other bit is just getting in front of people and building up a relationship. Like it's we're all people at the end of the day. And I invest quite a lot of time in building relationships with the people that I'm working with so that they do feel like they can trust you and they do see that you're genuinely interested in delivering a really positive outcome. And I think understanding those people early in the process can help with the pace of delivery. Because if people trust you, then they trust that the work you're doing is good. They trust in the decisions or the recommendations that you're putting forward, and it makes life way easier. Like even recently, I was running up to a big approval, and I spent a lot of time early in the process building relationships, running things by people. They then become invested in the process. Can you chip in and help me here? Can you help explain this bit? Because I can't get my head around it and I really need your help. And that's multiple layers in the business. And already by the time we get to the point where we're making decisions, they've all been involved and they're familiar with what's coming to them and they're actively invested because they've contributed. And that's how it works, right? Because we talked about, you know, not having all the answers and they know their business really well, and I'm here to bring perspective and experience. That's how it works. And that's how you can get to the point where trust really does impact the speed of delivery.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

I mean, it's really interesting what you say about working with a client and you want to move into or you see the opportunity to move into other problem areas, or you go, this is something we could help with. What I see a lot is consultancies go, well, you know, if they need help with that, they'll let us know, or whatever. And I think actually it needs to come from the consultancy. It needs to come from the delivery. So whether it's director like yourself or just somebody who's purely delivery, they need to be the one to observe it and go, you know, we can help with that other area because it's only through being under the hood of their business you notice it. And they're often so focused on the thing that you've been signed up to do that they're not thinking about what else could you do. You know, they're kind of almost waiting for you to say, if anything. So I having conviction that that is the role of a good consultant is I think dead on because it is. It is. Here's how we can deliver on the promises we made in our proposal, sure. But also this other thing, you know, we potentially have answers for that. And I can see you're struggling with it. Or I can see that you don't have or the strategy has been internal, whatever it is. But I think that's huge.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Yeah. It's really interesting you say that because recently we were looking at how do we activate some new relationships in in some of our larger accounts. And there's some crazy stat around and I'm not going to try and remember what it was, but I remember reading it and go, wow, is that when consultants are working within a business, like the statistics of how much the client actually knows about all the other stuff that you do is very low. So they know what you're here to do and they're very familiar with that, but they don't know everything else that you can do to help. So it's important as a and and we try to empower everybody in our business to do that horizon scanning piece and signpost where you need to, because it's important for us to leave our clients off in a better state than we arrived in. And if we can help in ways outside of what we're there to do, then that's really important for us. And some of that might be we'll just invest some time because we value the relationship that we have with that client. And then sometimes it leads to another piece of work. But if you're not having those conversations regularly and sitting down with people and asking them what's keeping you busy, what's keeping you awake at night, what else is going on in the business that you're worried about, and having that really natural conversation around the big challenges and problems, then you're not putting yourself in a strong position to sell on more stuff, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Well, it's funny because often consultancy buyers, they're not thinking about I want a consultant. The thought process isn't I want a consultant, who are we gonna hire? It's I have a problem, what's a potential solution? Consultants. And then they go, Well, could these individuals in this organization be the ones to help us with this problem? It's not I would like to spend more money on more people external to the business. So with that filter, they're going, Well, these guys are coming in to help us with this problem. They've narrowed their thinking to the mechanic for the broken car, you know? And so they've kind of shut off the options of what else could they do for us because it's not how they buy it, it's not how they think about it. So I think it's great that you do it and value it, but it's my yeah, to to beat the same drum. It's my conviction that it's the role of a great consultant to look at other opportunities to help. And um, I mean, just kind of closing our conversation a little bit here, you know, looking back, what's one transformation project that genuinely changed how you lead?

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Yeah, this is a tough one, right? I've been involved in quite a few really big and gnarly transformation programs. The one that springs to mind is I mentioned it in the conversation earlier, it was a large retail client, the big global ERP, really tough, complex environment, but where there was genuine co-creation and like a genuine partnership with the client. Part of that was because that was the culture of that particular organization that we work with. It was really refreshing that that was the approach because it wasn't the we've got a hundred people and we're just gonna deliver this for you. It was we're gonna deliver this with you. And that resulted in a better outcome for everybody. It was really challenging and really tough, super complex and really difficult. I remember having some really hard days on that project. And I always say to our people that when you're having those hard days and those really difficult projects that you've got to deal with and you're dealing with some tough people, those are the best ones because you learn the most in those. And when you wanted the next one, you'll have seen it and you'll have done it, so you're better prepared for it. And I think on that project in particular, and that major transformation that we did, there was just so many moving parts to it that it made it really tough. And not that there was really challenging, disruptive people because they were really great to work with, but they were just honest and they knew what they wanted and they were trying to deliver the best thing for their business. And sometimes that can feel hard because you're trying to deliver something, but actually we're trying to deliver the right thing. And that those hard days I do reflect on, and when I'm going into the next one, I remember that it's not going to be as hard as that. Then it is.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Last question for you from where you sit and all that you see day to day or week to week, you know, if you could give one piece of advice to every finder-led consultancy in the UK right now, what would be the thing you would want them to put attention on? Well, listen to this podcast.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Um, the market is changing a lot, and I think there's a really unique position for firms like ours and other smaller entrepreneur-led, founder-led consultancy firms to really make an impact. Um, talked earlier about the fact that the market's asking for more experience and deeper knowledge at industry level. And nine times out of ten, if someone's going to start a consultancy firm, they've got a fairly good idea of what they're going to do, the niche they're going to focus on, how they're going to run it. And genuinely, I did mean that at the start when I said listen to this podcast, because I think listening to people that have been there and done it is important. I think about this, like I think about having my first child. Everybody wants to give you advice. People love giving advice. And you you listen to it all and you kind of work it out for yourself, what's going to work for you and what you're trying to achieve. So I think that listening piece is really important. And that's not just listening to other people that have been there and done it. It's also listening to your past experiences. And when people come and join our business, we say, remember the good stuff that you learned at those big firms and other organizations that you've been a part of, but also remember the stuff you didn't like. Bring it here and help us change that. And so I think that listening piece is really important from other people. And then the other bit is listen to the market because the whole model of consulting is changing and it will continue to change. So it's no longer the big pyramid where you have a base of junior staff and the commercial model is built around that. Yeah, it's moving gradually more towards that diamond shape where the mid layer is the experience, and that's where you drive a lot of your commercial edge. You still need to top it up with junior resource, but that's where you get a lot of the, I guess, the revenue, that's what people want. And then if you think about how AI is evolving in that, the way that transformation teams will be shaped will be way different. So I think that there's rules for humans in transformation, and increasingly there's going to be rules for agents to come in and support that. So doing what traditionally analysts would have done in major transformations, and that's how you reduce the cost to transform your business and the cost of transformation by engaging with technology and putting them in in those transformation teams to do the simple stuff and allow the smaller team now of humans to focus on the big things. So what I mean by that in terms of advice is try to think about where things are going because if you can start doing that stuff now, it makes life way easier than if you don't and you try to change halfway through. And I think all firms at the minute are looking at how they can leverage like AI in this process. And maybe you have a team of five, and two of those are AI agents that are running your reporting and doing all the risk analysis for you. And you've got the people that are up there solving the problems and doing the day-to-day people thing. So I think look towards where things are moving and understand the market because it's shifting massively. And for a smaller firm that's led by an entrepreneur, it brings a different spirit to consulting is a really unique selling point that the clients buy into, I think.