17 Years In and 9,500 Delegates Later: Mark Grice's Patient Path to a Global Consultancy

Mark Grice is CEO and Co-Founder of Total Negotiation Group, a global negotiation consultancy operating across Europe, the Middle East, the Americas and Asia Pacific. Mark co-founded the firm 17 years ago with Mark Cranstoun after the two met working at Guinness. Today the business has trained more than 9,500 delegates across 72 countries, with clients who have stayed for over a decade. In January this year, Mark transitioned from Chief Commercial Officer into the CEO role.

In this conversation, Craig and Mark explore the three insights that shaped Total Negotiation Group from day one, why the client rarely loses clients, how Mark handles clients asking for a quick fix when they really need a longer engagement, and how he balances a core team of employees with a wider network of associates.

This is a measured, practical conversation with a consultancy CEO who has built a global firm by sticking to the long view, on client relationships, on capability, and on the kind of business worth building.

Host: Craig Herd, MD at Consultancy Growth
Guest: Mark Grice, CEO of Total Negotiation Group

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Middle East doesn't help. Doesn't help anybody. Doesn't help anybody. Yeah, well it's just the knock-on effects and all our clients. All our clients have got a lot more um costs to absorb.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Why if I just move your bag out?

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Go for it, please. Sorry. That's fine.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

So if you need anything, you can grab it.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Yeah, yeah. Shouldn't need anything from there.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

Okay, I'll double check. So what we'll do, we'll skip the intro. Yeah. I'll do that later. And then we'll just do the middle bit. And then um enter into the file record later. So the what the question is I've got to put forward, so it's really just about growing growing the business now all the game, um, international expansion, and having such a big footprint. I'm curious to learn about a bit on just negotiation skills and and thinking around that, but just to give no hint about. And then um, I was gonna ask a bit about the server software. You've also you've got that great video on your website that's gonna show negotiations with the and how the model's evolved. So I'm curious to how that's how that's worked. And then um finish up talking about your uh employee associate model if we can, just how you balance that so each thing to want to go. And uh finishing on the topics that you want to avoid or spend last time on it longer.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

No, that's all good. All easy. Easy, easy, easy and therry.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Yeah, you'll know you'll know the stuff inside. Yeah, that's fine. That's right, you're gonna go. I'll bring you. Alright. I feel like you can drink the tea through it. It's not fine. Yeah, yeah, it's totally fine. And then so your your co-founder, I was gonna ask your co-founder Mark Golso, isn't it? Yeah, so you're you've you've just moved as a CEO C E O role. Is he still part of the business?

SPEAKER_00 2:06

No, he's leaving for he's taking a period of time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Great. Um so first first my first question is really in the podcast we can answer, but yeah. So uh so you've built to the negotiation group over the last 17 years, into this global consultancy with with a footprint in Europe, Middle East, the Americas, 9,500 plus delegates, 72 countries. But can you take me back to how it all began? Like what what inspired you to start the consultancy?

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Like, how did it all begin? Yeah, I mean, two big reasons. Mark and I, we'd met when we both worked for Guinness many, many years ago. We'd always got on really well, and we'd always talked about at some stage we should go and do something together. We had quite complementary skills. We used to agree on a lot of things, but from different perspectives. And then secondly, an opportunity came up through a piece of work that Mark was leading where we engaged, well, he engaged another negotiation consultancy. I was involved in that piece of work, um, helping manage them. And as we were managing them, we just had these kind of reflections that this is really good. I mean, what they were doing was brilliant, but we could do it a bit better and a bit differently. And that was our insight was we could make a business that was much more tailored and customized to each assignment that was required, each opportunity. Um, we could make the make the offer much more long-term. So it wasn't just a um uh a one and done. You you go in, you learn everything, and then you're good to go. We've both done a bit of work on NLP, how to learn, how to embed behavior change. So our insight was it needed a longer-term journey. Um, and that's reflected in now most of our clients have been with us for a long period of time, and they're their teams and the businesses themselves have benefited from that longer-term um approach that you don't just get things fixed in a day. You you can't learn something in a minute, you can't learn it in 10 minutes. I know there's a huge move to micro learning. I've yet to see the evidence, I still yet to see the evidence. We believe in doing things correctly over a period of time. You embed, you embed, you support application. So that was at the second one. The third one was using experts who knew the field. Because one of the big challenges of learning is you can learn the theory, you have to be able to apply it. If you've got people around you who can support the application because they know the context, then that's even better. So those three things we brought to it to a business and we we launched.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

And if you think of think back to the last 17 years, are there what do you think were the main or have been the main drivers of your growth? Do you think it is your your offering that has that longevity and great client retention, or do you think it's it's it's other factors that factors that have led us to be able to grow so well is a belief.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Mark and I have always believed we would succeed, not in an arrogant way, just in a we know the offer is really good. I've worked in sales, I've worked in a few different bits, but when you're in sales, and if you know what you are selling is really good, it helps. What we do is really good. We have, we've never really lost a client, we get such positive feedback around the modernity of the offer, the the depth, the the skill, the innovative way it's delivered, the interactive way, the way we bring everybody with us. That is so if you know your product's really good and you have the right mindset, and then of course, the people, we've been able to find and bring amazing people with us the whole way through. And our clients have benefited from us having an amazing team, both face to face with them, but also in the middle and back offices.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

That's great. And it sounds like your offer started strong because it was a reflection on what you'd already seen exists and and realized well, we can do this better. But you must over the last 17 years, you must have had a layer method to continuously improve it. Like, what does that look like? How do you how do you ensure that it stays great?

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Having a business partner who relentlessly wants to improve. So that's one of the skills Marx brings. We're different but aligned, so he brings a real restlessness, a relentless desire to make things better and improve and improve, which has been fantastic. So it's we we listen to our clients, we look at what's going on around, we spend a lot of time with just kind of understanding what's going on in the marketplace and where we think it's going, and always continually tweaking. And that was there's nowhere that the the best place that was illustrated was COVID. We were able to adapt, and lots of people use COVID as a reference point. But for us, where 99% of our revenue was face-to-face programs and coaching and supporting people, we lost all that revenue instantly. We were able to evolve and adapt really quickly, which enabled us to seize an opportunity to support companies and clients and people who were going through enormous disconcerting change. So that that was a reflection of our ability to be able to change quickly, which kind of has been anchored into the business throughout by Marcus. How do we keep changing and evolving?

unknown 7:32

And it almost must be part of the culture now.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

It is. We try, we we are Mark and I were lucky. We learnt when we were both at Guinness, Guinness had an incredible feedback culture. Everyone was always like, You can't have a meeting, what could I have done better differently? What could I have done better? And that we've kind of always had that in our bellies, and we've tried to bring that into the business to help the business keep improving.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

That's great. And international expansion, so total negotiation group has a really wide, large global footprint. And I think that was established fairly early on, wasn't it? I think year two is Australia. Yeah. Um what's what's been the benefits of that and some of the complexity or challenges with that large, wide footprint?

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Terms of benefits, diversity. So now we're seeing if we have a quiet period, say, in Europe during July and August, quite typically with holidays, other parts of the world haven't got that. Um, I mean, I was just listening to something on the radio and it was talking about there's going to be a problem with jet fuel shortages because of summer holidays coming. It's a very, it's a very kind of western um hemisphere, western northern hemisphere issue, because if you're down in Australia or you're in Asia, it's less of a big dive away in the in the summer. So we can diversify seasons and factors. So if it's Chinese New Year or Ramadan over a period of January, February, March quite often, then we know we can we've got other parts of the business. So that's great. Also, we've just clients clients are global. Most of our clients, I mean, we work with 13 of the top global FMCG companies, which is a real kind of I'm so proud of that fact. But we need to be able to be global to service them because they are in all these different markets. And we've always talked about we we have got we speak their language in every market, not just the language they speak, but understanding the commercials and the marketplace and that context. And that's what our our clients buy us for understanding the context in each of those marketplaces.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

Yeah, that's great. And has growth just a bit of detail on that, so has growth internationally come about from clients where their footprint is international, so you've almost followed the client to the various locations, or have you thought we should be in Europe more, we should be in Australia, we should be in Asia more?

SPEAKER_00 9:49

As with a lot of these things, a bit of both. I mean, we've we've known Australia was we knew we knew somebody. He wanted to be able to grow his team and grow his team quickly. Australia was a stretch for us, but whilst we went to Australia, we did some bids there, we got some more clients, we were able to establish a real footprint. But then we've had clients who are like, it would be nice if you were in. It would be nice, and it's always a challenge. We're nearly there, it feels a bit whack-a-mole at times, but we've always known we wanted to enter China. It's been hard to find a really good partner in China. We've done that, we've got a fantastic partner on the ground there now with an amazing team of people. We've always wanted to do Japan. Japan has been a real hard one to crack because negotiation is viewed very differently in Japan, has a it's a really unique skill because honesty is so important to Japanese culture. They find it hard to kind of say, I want more than I need. But we think we've now cracked that. We think we've found somebody. One of our team has just been in Japan for the last week, uh having some amazing client conversations. So it's an it's an enormously mark, it's a fabulous market. I mean, it's a country I love, but it's a market that's really important. It's sizable. Um, so yeah, it's been able to, we're nearly there to crack Japan, we hope.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

That's interesting. So talking about negotiation, I mean, it's often, I'm sure people have very different views on what negotiation is or or the or or its value. Um, I mean, you're expensive when when talking about say senior commercial leaders, you know, what are the most commonly fundamentally misunderstanding about wrong when it comes to negotiation? What do you see all the time?

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Senior leaders, um, they get involved quite often when they shouldn't. Their teams do amazing jobs to prepare and get ready, um, but then they don't always get fully aligned in business. So alignment is a challenge. Getting a whole business aligned top to bottom, side to side, everybody understanding the position and what we're trying to achieve and why. The why that context is so important and it's not always shared. People see it as a set of numbers on a spreadsheet that you're just tooing and throwing. It's a lot more than that. Um, and also it's not about winning, it's about creating great sustainable deals. And this is back to one of Mark and I's kind of long, long-term values has been how do you do how do you do things sustainably so they last a long time, whether it's business, development, or deals. So for me, senior leaders, get everybody aligned, ensure your teams prepare properly, give them the space, give them the context, and let them get on with it.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

And um I think I've read on the website perhaps on your your approach, but it was uh negotiation is often a discipline rather than a talent. That was the was the phrase that I read. Could you expand on that? What does that mean that it's more of a discipline than a talent?

SPEAKER_00 12:43

I mean, we we we take people through a process. People think that negotiation is he's he or she is a great negotiator. It's people who are left to be great negotiators often it's gut feel, it's intuitive. It's not it's not the best way to do things. If you can instill a process and a discipline and stick to that structure, you're gonna get better outcomes. Because for us, we always think very much around all the relevant parties in a negotiation. So it's not just what I want, what does the other side want? Who else is impacted or will be involved in this negotiation? So we teach people to speak to think with a real broad perspective. We call it a kaleidoscopic perspective. So think looking through a kaleidoscope, you see lots of different things. We want people to see all the different approaches so that they can understand the ramifications and plan ahead for that. If you plan and then you apply the process, then that discipline is going to get you to a really good outcome. It's it's the classic had seven hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend the first six hours sharpening a saw. That was on the back of our business cards for the first few years when we set up preparation, is everything. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

So preparation being a fundamental part of what you do and believe. And then this idea of sustainability or doing things for the long term. Can you tell me about a time, or perhaps there's a time that comes to mind where you had to choose between that kind of long-term and short-term perspective? And when was that being challenged?

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Um, I think people want quick results. So short term might be, I need the team, I need them trained in, here's half a day, here's a hundred people. We tend to say no. I I mean, I've never sold, we we sell programs, we sell learning journeys and programs. We never sell, come and do two days, bang, bang, you're done. It it doesn't work because you need to have that sustainable journey. And this is where people want everything quicker and quicker. Concentration levels are are changing so much. People want things quickly, and I want to be able to have a quick fix right now. It's it we we believe very differently. That's that's is that's part of the mix. So when I go back to we we understand everyone has different ways of learning, and we try and cater for all of that. We really think long and hard about how we do that, but it you have to do it over a long term. You're not gonna fix something in five minutes or half a day. You need to do it and because we forget things. There's fascinating science about how quickly we forget. You need to keep helping people remind them they they know what the knowledge is, but then they need to keep applying it and keep applying and keep learning and also learning the skill of self-analysis to know when you're doing it well and how you can improve. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

And so, in there must have been many moments throughout the years where potential clients are coming to you with that short-term results driven. Can you just come in and do this quick thing with us? Ask. Is your approach I think I know the ask, but it'd be interesting to hear, is is your approach typically to say, look, we're not going to do that? You know, we're you're not going to be able to get the results you you'd like? And does that how does that typically play out? Do clients come back six months later going, we're still not further forward with our our short note?

SPEAKER_00 16:00

It's it's a great question. So, one of the principles we teach with negotiation is to never say no. So if a client comes to us and says, here's what we like, they may have done their own thinking and they think that's what they want and that's gonna be the great solution. We're never gonna say no, we're gonna seek first to understand why they think that's the solution and let's peel it back. Because if you're in if you can go into a discussion and help them understand the benefits of doing it in a more joined up, sustainable way, then we're probably gonna get the right results. So we're never gonna say, yes, let's do a really quick fix. We're not gonna say no, never speak to us. We're gonna try and work with them to try to find a brilliant solution.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

That's interesting. And and when you start a consult, because uh what I'm really looking getting at is I think a lot of um consultancies or those that are in charge of selling the clients within the consultancy, they will have that. They will have their their clients say, can you do the short term just as the middle thing or or another version of it is they've they've established a term of what they think they need, and it's right or wrong. Most probably not quite right about what they need. So your approach is typically just kind of not to say yes, but to say to feel it back and find how they got to that, and then do you typically um how does that affect the the work and relationship ongoing that that that is the start?

SPEAKER_00 17:20

I mean, if the example is, for example, we we may come, somebody goes, I want you to train my people for two days.

unknown 17:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Why two days? Yeah, it's really traditional. I get that. It's a bit like school days are really traditional, and we've all because just could we've always done something a particular way. How do you know that what you've got, the scope of what you've got fits into two days? So it's then coming back to going, what's the scope you want? Let's really, really understand it, and let's design what you want. It might be what could we have two sets of two days? Why is it one set? So by by taking the time to understand and by listening to them, so listening again, we do practice what we preach, we ask lots of questions, we listen to them, we summarize what they think they need, and then we play back and we give them a solution, but that builds more trust over time because if you just say yes needlessly, too many people promise going, yeah, I can do that. And consultants are famous for, yep, I can do that. And then it often gets the consultants into a real mess because they may not be able to do it, particularly in the time that's given or the budget that's given, or they don't give the client what they want. So take the time, don't always jump in with two feet. It feels really nice to say yes, and consultants are famous for always yes, what's the question? So move beyond that.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Well said, uh I'd love to know your perspective and experience of running the consultancy, balancing employees, full-time consultants with associates. You know, how do you how do you how have you built the firm around that? You know, have you been have you have you leaned on a uh large percentage percentage of associates? So we always try to bring people in house when possible, but how do you think we've got in this way?

SPEAKER_00 19:04

It it it's been a mix of both. We were fortunate we had a real we we've always had a really core team of employees who've been fantastic. They've been with us in a long way through this journey, and that helps. The core of employees really helps, but right from day one, Mark and I invested and we trained eight associates. It was almost the first thing we did. Um, we trained them up because then we would have that flexibility to allow for demand. Both, we're both well, definitely I am a born optimist. So if we win lots of work, how are we going to do it? We can't do it just the two of us. So ever since then, we've had a balance of probably more associates than employees. The associates have been an integral part of our success. They bring different skills, they bring uh they bring more recency and knowledge, they have other experiences that they're going through at the time. So they're not just locked into working for our business, they probably do other things. So they bring a rich, they bring a really rich perspective, they bring a lot of current understanding of what's going on in the marketplace, and it and there are often people with more experience who've been around longer, who have got to that stage where they want to share that that experience and give back. A lot of them took a lot of them genuinely talk about giving back, wanting to help other people learn and bringing through teams. Something that a lot of people miss who've come out full-time is almost, I loved managing teams and developing them. They want to do that. An associate is a way of doing that. So we try really hard to communicate really regularly, keep them updated on what the business is, keep them trained, and kind of be really good partners. We see ourselves as partners, um, and we're always looking to bring more people on board. And we we we we try and create a pipeline of as some of them go and go off and do different things, we'll bring more in.

unknown 20:58

Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

And then January this year we moved into the from chief commercial officer into the CEO role. Yeah. What's that that transition been like and and what does it make you think about the the future focus of the business?

SPEAKER_00 21:11

It's been it's been probably easier than either Mark or I might have expected, but then you quickly think back and go, it's been the two of us running for the business for a long time. So it's not like I've been parachuted from in from outside. So it's been a relatively brief um handover. It's taken two or three months. We've always, I mean, we speak all the time. We've always spoken probably two times a day, every day of the week. So we know what's going on. So it's been pretty smooth. I've been fortunate we're having a stellar year, we're having an absolutely brilliant year. The team is performing fantastically well with busier than we've ever been. We're doing record numbers. That always really helps. Um, and in terms of where we're going for the future, Mark and I, three years ago, as we became an Employee ownership trust. So that the company is now owned by the employees. As we did that, we've tried to move it away from just being Mark and myself. We've created a different structure that enables us to do much better succession planning, much better development plans for the team. And that's something we're focusing on right now. I've established a people committee that means we can really think about what people do we need as we grow forward and we continue to grow. How do we develop internally to resource that internally? That's what we're really keen to keep make sure we do, as well as plan to recruit if we need to.

unknown 22:35

Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

We'll finish there. Easy.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

Sure, sure.

unknown 22:39

Good.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Two and a half minutes to spare.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Yeah. Well, that's true. Throw in another question as well. I I just like your ending there. I think that's quite a good one to finish on. That was great. Thanks for doing that.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Cover everything we need?

SPEAKER_02 22:50

Yeah, I think so.