Employee Reviews: A Tool for Growth, Not a Burden for Managers and Owners

Annual reviews shouldn’t feel like a surprise attack followed by a tiny raise and a big dose of resentment… but for a lot of small and midsize businesses, that’s exactly what happens.

In this episode of The Business Fix, Chrissy Myers (CEO of Clarity HR) and Josh Troche (marketing & operations guy) break down why traditional performance reviews are broken—and how to turn them into one of your strongest tools for culture, clarity, and growth.

You’ll hear Josh’s own “top performer gets blindsided” review horror story, then Chrissy walks through research from Gallup and the Journal of Applied Psychology on why annual, form-heavy reviews don’t actually drive performance. From there, they introduce the 3 A’s framework—alignment, anticipation, and advancement—and show how to turn reviews from a judgment day into a roadmap your people can actually use.

From the CEO and operations side, they dig into:

• Why the annual review should be “dead” as a once-a-year event
• How to use quarterly check-ins and a simple 3-tier system (below / meets / above expectations) instead of bloated 1–5 scales
• How to document performance fairly so you’re not scrambling when tough calls or raises come up
• Why “meets expectations” is not an insult—and what happens when everyone is magically “above average”
• The danger of “money ear”: why mixing compensation with feedback makes people stop listening

They also rapid-fire some hot topics every owner and manager wrestles with:

• Self-evaluations – helpful reflection or just checkbox theater?
• Email/Slack reviews – when quick feedback is good and when it’s just lazy
• Peer reviews – how to avoid turning them into a hornet’s nest

By the end, you’ll have a simple way to think about great reviews using the 3 C’s of leadership:
Clarity (what success looks like), Consistency (no surprises), and Care (growth actually matters here). Combine that with one-page forms and recurring calendar blocks, and reviews stop feeli

If you're looking to get help with your culture, or to help out an entire group, reach out to Josh and Chrissy today!  We would love to see how we can help you, your business, or your event. Contact us!

ClarityHR is your fractional HR team, giving you real people, real support, and real solutions. Whether it’s compliance headaches, hiring struggles, or just needing someone to take the people stuff off your plate — we’ve got your back. So if you’re ready to stop using duct-tape and hope as your HR strategy and finally get some peace of mind, head over to ClarityHR.com

If you're looking to start your own podcast or maybe you just want to add the next level of professionalism to your podcast and brand, you should be working with the producers behind The Business Fix at Pedal Stomper Productions. Click the link to learn more about how you can get your podcast to the next level. https://www.pedalstomperproductions.com

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Transcript

0:30

I'm going to start this week with an analogy because, you know, that fits and it's going to be about a certain rock star, Vince Neil, that guy in the 80s tore it up. And as they got bigger, oh, did it get worse as he got promoted? Oh, did it get worse? Have you ever seen a rock star, like, get promoted to something new? And suddenly they are no longer the rock star? Yes. They act more like a rock being tossed into the water. They're sinking as fast as they can. And they want to grab on to you to take. Them. You're not taking me with you? No, no, no, we are going to talk about the rock star trap. And we are to talk about the Peter Principle. And you need to stay tuned. She's the CEO. He's the marketing and operations guy. If it's broken, you need. The business fix. Have you ever promoted someone and thought that was a bad idea? Yeah, yeah, I have a. Complete lack of hesitation there. Yeah. Once again, wasn't even done with a question. Chris is like, oh gosh. I've done it. I've watched other people in organizations do it. I've said, don't do it. People haven't listened to me. Yeah, yeah, oh. I've done it. I've even been a part of it where I'm oh yeah, yeah. I was like, oh, I am ready for that promotion. I got promoted and that was like, why? Why is this so awful? I thought this corner office was just going. I mean, I sat here with my feet kicked up and we really. Why isn't this easy? The the problem that I see is so many people hire based on past performance instead of looking forward. Yeah. The problem is, is it's it's a wonderful thing to be able to promote from within. I it's one of the most amazing things to be able to give someone that gift of promoting from within because they grow, the organization grows. It's usually I mean smooth if you do it correctly. They've already understand the values and the culture. Correct? Yes. The biggest mistake that I see so many people. Make. Is that they promote someone based on their past performance, and they don't treat it like a job interview. Correct? It should be like a job interview, like, how are you going to handle these things in the future? Not I saw that you're a good salesman. You should be a great sales manager. No. The Peter Principle concept that I was allude to is employees are promoted until they reach their level of incompetence. I've worked with a number of government agencies, and this seems to be rampant there. That's where it's the best. Yeah. It is. You've worked really, really hard. So we're going to promote you to a job that you can no longer perform. And we're going to leave you there because obviously we can't promote you anymore. So you end up with someone in a job that can't do it. Yeah. So many times out of, out of loyalty. Hey, I think they may leave if they don't get a raise and a promotion. They really want this job. We must change their title. The problem that I see in so many cases where they're like, we must change their title and give them a promotion. You can do that without giving, without making them do a different job. Yes. Tweak the. Job, change the title. Give them a couple of more dollars. We'll get into this. Yeah. Yeah. This is going to be. Yes. I'm excited to talk about this one. Is there any first off, is there anything good going on. We've we've unbanned or heard a few of these. I mean it's travel seasons. Good time. Like all the visioning is working on things. That sounds like my personal hell. I know it's great. You. I'm going to sunny places, so I am not upset. Oh, okay. I can see that you're going to sunny. Yeah. Sunny. Places to do work and visioning and goal setting and all sorts of fun things. Visioning, visioning, working with other business owners on how do we vision our business for the next year? How do we do this for the next five years? Yeah, this is okay. I stuff I can see that. I can see that is good. I love planning, you know that. Oh, I do too. But it's it's the travel piece of it that I'm kind of like. Oh no, that's fine. I get a lot of work done on airplanes. I know you've talked about that. Or is I just. I have to have a window seat because I don't care if it's the same clouds the whole time I'm staring out the window. Okay, so what about you? How are you doing? You count down the days to spring. Yeah. How did you guess, So, what I find, though, what's interesting, is this time of year, I get to reset because, I mean, I walk the dog usually every day, sometimes twice a day, and during the winter. I can't always do that. So that in some cases gives me like an hour of my day back. Don't get me wrong, I love spending time walking my dog. I have never regretted walking with the dog. I'm never in the same sense. It's time. There's a lot of other stuff yard work, things like that. So this gives me that chance to reset. Kind of. I don't want to say take a break because. There are not I don't know, I know that, but it's staying in season. I'm not going out. Yeah. Right. It's it's it's staying there. Plus the other thing is, is like there's all sorts of stuff like I would like to improve with motorcycles myself, things of that nature. This is the season to do that. So same is it same but different as you know, yours is less mechanical, I guess. Very much so. And the garage is my healing place. I mean, it the the bike may as well be a therapist. It's just there's no leather couch. I'm just standing there talking with it like, hey, this is the thing. What happens when you put that top performer, like the piece? That's always difficult, because we always get into is you have a top performer, you're like, hey, do they want a promotion? How do I keep them engaged? How do I keep them? How do I keep them engaged? Because the problem is, is if you promote them to something that they can't do well, now, they may as well have just left. Yeah. Additionally, like, if so, if you boot them or, like, if you put them to a position that they're incapable of or if they leave, you've lost a top performer, which there's always high stakes in that you don't typically you don't typically want to lose a top performer. Yeah, we've all done it before. We're like, oh no, this is bad. But in the same sense it's if you can prevent it, you want to, but you don't want to. Yeah. In in trying to prevent losing a top performer, you also don't want to punch yourself in the face. Make it worse. Correct. So when you're talking with me, I mean you're looking at personnel strategy all the time. I know you do it both in your business and at clarity HR. Why is there such a disconnect between the doer and the leader. Because we see in so many cases great leaders aren't necessarily the big doers. No. How do you, how do you, how do you do that math. Yeah. So I mean, I'll just I mean, being honest, I promoted rockstars into management, thinking this is going to be great. Yes. And then they're amazing at the work. It's going to be fantastic. And sometimes it was until it wasn't. And other times it just wasn't. So it's just you know, I am speaking from a place of where I have screwed this up. So saying, hey, same, same. Over time, I realize there's really a pattern in some of these. And when, you know, a top performer struggles as a manager and almost always comes down to one of three things. And fortunately for you, Josh, they all start with the letter. I. I know you're very excited. I kid you not for like for when your birthday happens. Yes I'm going to get you the letter people. Oh I would love that I would. So the three things in dealing with the rock star trap their identity, interaction and intention. So, I like. Those. Yes. So identity number one, who gets the win. All right. So the first gap rock stars get their sense of worth from what they produce. And they feel successful when they check things off, solve problems and save the day. There's a reason why they're a rock star. Yes. Right. So managers have to flip that completely as managers, their way in comes from what other people produce, and that's a huge shift. And it's one that I've underestimated early on. And it's something that I underestimated myself too, like, oh, wait a second, I got to manage people. It's not all about me. No, it's not. So I got to give a quick a sports analogy. This, as a former soccer player, there's that star on the field. You see them celebrate like mad when they score. They have a tougher time celebrating when they give the assist. Yes, that's a good one. I mean, I I've watched it hundreds of times. It's difference between a rock star and a leader. Yep. Rock star and a manager. So you know, I've seen incredible employees struggle because they felt invisible once they stopped doing once they got promoted to being the manager, and then they kept jumping back into the work because that's where they felt competent and valued. This is something we've also talked about with business owners. We're like, don't break it. Are you are you bored? Yep. I mean, you can do the same thing as a business owner, like when you hire people and then you're like, oh, but I'm not the one anymore. Yeah, it's good for you. It's okay. So if you cannot shift your identity or that person cannot shift their identity from hero to coach, management is always going to feel like a loss instead of growth. So they're not going to want to be a manager if they're not going to want to be a coach. And that's the first thing you got to talk about when you're starting to say, I want a promotion, I want to be in management. Are you ready to lead people and are you ready to not be number one, the smartest person in the room and number two, the person that's always the hero. Are you ready to be the coach on the sideline? Correct. Yeah. You be the coach. That's that's the I think I think we could end the podcast there and still be good. But I know you've got more to go. Yeah. So we did I mean the next is interaction. All right. That's that gap. So people skills versus task skills. And this is huge. So being great at the job doesn't mean you're great with people right. It doesn't. And I learned that the hard way. So just because you're good at this doesn't mean you're going to be good at the people part. Technical brilliance doesn't equal emotional intelligence. There's a reason why I've worked on a lot of emotional intelligence trainings. All right, so learn from me. I had gaps, I still am continuing to get better. I've got to interject here, this guy Galloway thing that I used to, I spent so much of my career being right instead of being effective. Yes. Fits in this perfectly, It does, because leadership requires skills. Most rock stars were never hired for. That's coaching. They weren't hired to coach people unless they were hired to be a rock star. Consultant conflict? Yep. Most of them weren't weren't brought in to deal with conflict resolution, feedback, and empathy. The big one is empathy. Most rock stars do not have empathy. They have sympathy for the people that can't perform like them. They do not have empathy. Yeah. So I mean, and I've watched new managers panic when they realize their job is no longer solving problems, that it's helping other people. It's navigating emotions. Yeah. White eyes like, oh crap, I got to deal with the squishy people part. Yeah. That's what managers too. Yeah. So and if no one trains them for that, then they default to impatience avoidance and micromanagement. And that is those are red flags for just disaster in the organization. So I guess we would never promote someone in finance without teaching them the numbers and how to do the math. But we do it with people all the time. When it comes to management. We don't teach them emotional intelligence, we don't give them soft skills training. And we're like fly baby bird. And they do into a window. Oh that's bad. I mean, to me it beautifully said. And it's the I mean, the biggest piece is we don't give them the expectation. No, just be a manager. Be a manager. Well, what the hell does that mean? And if you're not a good manager and you're modeling what you're supposed to be, man, you better be good at it too. So if you're leading leaders, you need to build those skills as well. So that's the interaction. Build the soft people skills. Build your resilient operating system. Learn how to communicate effectively. Learn how to give feedback. Learn how and as a rock star, learn how to take feedback because you're probably not going to be good at the manager part when you start. No. So just be willing to suck at something new. I know that it's hard, but if you're really. The rock star. Yes. Yeah, you're. I used to be good at this. Yeah. While you're not right now, but it's okay. Let's get better. And if they don't want to get better, then that's where you kind of have that conversation about what do we do with this person? Another sports analogy for you, I, I don't I don't know why I'm on this today, but it's like when you play at like a, let's say a state level. And then you go to nationals. Yeah. It's a different. It's a different game. You got to learn different. It is. Yeah. All right. So that third eye is intention. So that's now versus next right. Yes. Top performers live in the now. They focused on how to do the work and what needs to happen today. Whereas leaders have to live in the next. They have to pull people towards the future. They have to align them to a bigger why and make decisions that don't pay off immediately, which is hard for a rock star. Yes. What do you mean? I don't get applause right now. What do you mean? I have to wait six months for all of this to work. It's another one of those broken or bored. What do you mean? I have to be patient. And I have promoted people who are incredible executors but had no desire to think long term. And that's. That's not a character flaw, just a mismatch. I laugh because been there, done that. I have to that was me. And I'm like, wait a second, I got to be patient. I can't break it. I mean, do you know how hard it is? And you do when like I can see what needs to be done in 12 months and I want it done now, and I'm just going to do it myself because I can get it done in one month. I've done that. It's been bad. Don't do it. It's me reminding myself. Because again, we're going through some really big initiatives this year. Note to self. Yes. So I'm going to send you this podcast on a weekly basis for you to read. I probably need it. And it's here's, here's when I wrote this out, I was like, oh, crazy. If someone can't lift their head up from the task long enough to lead people forward, management is going to feel like constant frustration. Yep. For them and for the team. So they're going to hate themselves. Their team is going to hate them as well. It's not. It's not just one thing. It's both. So when a rock star struggles as a manager, I'm not going to assume they failed. These are the three questions I'm going to ask with the three eyes. Is it an identity gap or is it an interaction gap, or is it an intention gap? And I've missed all of those signals before. Yep. In part with me. It's cost me time, turnover and trust. But once you know what to look for, you can promote with clarity instead of hope, because that's it. A lot of times when we're promoting people, we're just hoping that it's going to work one out. We're not certain. No, we're we're taking an estimation. We're like, they're a high performer. They can do everything. Yeah, no you can't. So here's let's shift to operations because I've talked about the aspirational identity interaction intention. So what happens to the actual workflow and the brand of the team when this promotion goes south. It's for talks from our experience when we screwed it up. So I don't have the three eyes. I have the three points. Yes I like these are the. So yeah, the first one is the operational bottle bottleneck. And I've seen this so many times. You have the hero manager. Yes. The team waits for the hero to be like, hey. We do. Correct. The PTO shouldn't be panic. You've said that, right? Is that the saying? Correct? Yeah. That managers out and there's not. They're there to dole out tasks. You can't live without them. No, no. The other thing is too, as you see it in so many cases that that scale that you talked about where like if you're doing things, your capacity is limited. Yes. As a leader, like you have to think like you don't have a limited capacity. Your people do and you have to work within that, but you don't. I mean, the capacity is limited by what's around you and your ability to bring more people in. It's not limited by what you can do. At least it shouldn't be if it is. Once again, the big thing is too, that I've seen in some cases is you get that if you promote that high performer and they come in and they, they like, oh no, no, no, no, this is how I do it. And that's how they were a high performer. And suddenly all of your SOPs and everything like that are out the window and they're like, no, we're doing it this way, my way. And you're like, no, I'm having a nightmare. So yeah, it's and it's once again, it comes down to their individual talent. Yeah. I when I was at Summit Racing, I was incredibly fast on the phone because I had, like, catalog pages memorized. Memorized, not everybody's going to do that. Not everyone's going to do that. And that's what made me a high performer there would have made me a good boss. No, definitely not. Definitely not. The other thing is too is so like in so many cases, we market management, to our employees is like, this is the path forward. This is where you want to be. You want the executive suite, you want the whatever. No, it's it's not like you you can level up without necessarily changing floors in the organization. Yes. You don't need to be on the top level to do really, really well. Yes. Additionally, you have to acknowledge when someone is at the top of their game. Yes. This is what they are capable of. This is where they are. Brilliant. Don't move them from that. No, I'm going to say this and I need everyone to hear me. Do not promote your lead salesperson to sales manager. Just don't do it. That is the most common one. It's dumb and it's what every organization does. And then they're like, what happened? And it becomes contentious. It becomes and generally rarely in that situation is that person salvageable. And it's not because they are a bad person. It's because you have created an environment for them where they cannot be any more. And more often than not, they will leave. You might be able to rescue them with professional development so they can stay in that role, or you might be able to move them back into sales. But it is really hard to do that. So if you're going to move somebody in your sales department, because that's the one where it's most likely to get screwed up, really think about it. The funny thing is, and I want to mention, well, this is what really typically happens with that. And I've had this happen to me. I was a salesman, just started an organization. They promoted the previous salesman to sales manager, but let him keep sales duties. No. Take extremely. Hard. No, we'll take a guess at who got every good phone call. Absolutely. Also, yeah. No, it was an absolute nightmare. Now, the problem is, is do you like. And this is what we talked about a little bit earlier, like, hey, I'm going to lose this person if something good doesn't happen for them soon. As the top performer, you don't want to lose your salespeople. First off, treat them well. Yes. But don't promote them into a role that they're going to stumble in because you're going to lose them. Then they're just going to cripple your business in the process. Well, and this is where dialog with your employees is important. So yeah, tell us tell me what your goals are. Tell me what you want to achieve by being here. Because this is a this is a two way street. It's a dance and it's dialog. They may not ever want to be in charge of anything, so don't know. We've seen that. So how about you ask? Or if they're well I feel like this is something I have to do. No it's not. No you don't have to do that. If the goal and a lot of times with sales, they are they're motivated by being able to, you know, check the boxes, close the sales, grow things the way they want, make more money, and if that is what their motivator is, then fuel it. Not everybody's motivator is management that some of them think that's what it has to be. Because that's what they've been doing. That's what they've been told. Do not create a culture where the only thing that they see as achievement is manager status. No. The things that I always say, there's always profit sharing, there's high level bonuses. There's specialized perks. Yes. Find it. I mean, professional development. Send them to that, send them build different skills. Correct. They I mean, and there's all sorts of ways like there's, there's a different incentive structures with company cars. I mean, there are all sorts of ways to say, look, if you get to this level, it's going to be and I guarantee as the company owner, it is going to be worth it for you. It is. To. Now, the only thing that I will say as a trap is don't offer that every single week. No, don't offer that every month because then they're just going to be like, I'm leaving unless you do this. And tie it to KPIs, tie it to performance 100 and have regular reviews. People get into trouble in this section of of their managing of their business because they don't pay attention quarterly, or they're not keeping a cadence of communication with their employee. Yep. Totally. What happens when it goes wrong? It's pensive. That's really expensive. It is. Not only like let's say you promote the. Person. Yeah. Not only did you lose their production, but now you've crippled your department. Yeah, because now they've got your department has a bad manager. I have never found a bad manager being good for a department or its productivity. Oh, unless you want everybody to exit. Right. If you want to get rid of people, you say, oh, we promote this person. Everyone will leave. I mean, if that's your intention, right? We ever seen that a clarity? No, no. I have seen where there's bit where we started to see some people leave and it's like, here's your warning sign. You got an issue there like we do. Yes you do. There's some red flags. Yeah. But not we haven't had a mass exodus. We did have a mass exodus with an insurance client once. Oh that where it was where it was literally like that. The team had eight people. Seven of them left. Yikes. Which is also, I mean, a cautionary tale. And when you hire, all of the people are in the same family and they don't own the business, and you take one off and they all go together, that's that's a bad. Yeah, it was a really he had a really bad, bad, probably 12 months at least. He's still in business. But it looks very different. I'm sure I'm sure it's it's interesting when you say that too, because like we've talked about like a number of months back, meta hired a bunch of rock stars. Oh yeah. And tried to get them all to work together. This was a pop popcorn because, you know, it's not going to work, right? Yeah, yeah. Get get the popcorn out, get a blanket and just sit back and watch. They did not establish psychological safety. They did not do the team building things they were supposed to do from civility from our last episode. No, they just looked at it. They just let them all do their thing. And and you get a bunch of eight players in there and. No. Not going to work. Not going to work. The other thing is to is when a bad manager, like if they get to the point where it's quitting, they're going to cause any other high performers in the team to like leave or they're, they're going to take other things down. The problem is with this, this is going to leave a legacy. Yes. Like if they quit, the problem's not over. Yes. It's not just, hey, they quit. They caused some real damage. That is going to take months and or years to repair. Every hour, like the hero spent fixing mistake is an hour they didn't spend on strategy or marketing or moving things forward. Yeah. And it just turns to junk. Does. Yeah. It's just awful. So what is. Oh, I love this. What is the no conversation when it comes to your rock stars? Oh, that is the. I value you too much as blank to set you up for failure in management. That's hard. It's really hard to hear. That is a ten minute sweaty sentence. It is. It's a real it. That's for dear man. Get fast. Really comes in build those interpersonal effective skills. It really is. So it's one of the hardest, most loving conversations that a leader can have. And framing it how you frame it matters. You can't just be like nope, you're not ready. Like maybe if you're in a family business, like and that's how you talk to each other, but you cannot do that generally with a human, especially when they are a really good performer and they're coming to you saying, this is what I want to do, and you're going, I know that maybe what you think you want to do, but that's not it. There's a there's a gap there. Yeah. And it's figuring out like it's not saying, hey, you idiot. Yeah. It is saying, look, they may not know the things that are expected of them. Yes. If they move to leadership. Yeah. Or they're like, I want your job. You're like, okay, well, let's talk about what my job really is. That that's. You're seeing you're seeing the smiling part of my job. You're not seeing all these other things. So let's talk about what I do. Right. Another thing I would say is, you know, is that gap analysis with them because there may be things, you know, showing them the specific leadership skills they lack. Yep. So that no feels like a not yet because there are some people that I think can be good managers if they can develop the skills, because part of what makes you a good manager is being able to be coachable, to coach other people and being open to change. You cannot be set in your ways and rigid, so a know without that context feels like rejection and not yet with a skills gap and saying, this is the pathway that we're going to do to develop it. I think that feels like I mean, it feels like development, it feels like progress. It is. And it's the big thing is, is it's saying, hey, there's some pieces about this that you don't necessarily that you can't see. Yeah. It's not that you don't know, it's that you can't see what's going on with this and how we're doing things. And the problem is, too, is it took me until like my mid 30s to find a decent mentor. Yes. That coached me on how to properly manage people. And all I had before that was horrific toxic examples. Exactly. So if someone comes in as a high performer and they're there for a year and they think, hey, this is great, I should be doing the things. But like most of their prior experience was with crappy management. Yeah, you have to be like, we need to we need to work on polishing this up to make sure that this is ready. Yeah. And it's so much about, you know, how we say it, but then also creating the path for them to decide, do you succeed? So if you're like, no, you're not ready yet and you don't provide any way for them to develop, then they're going to leave anyway. Yep. You still, you have to be a good leader and a good manager to be able to manage the situation as well, because you've got to be able also, you've got gap analysis. You know, I don't think you're ready yet, but here's the things that you need to potentially do. Here's the things that I think you should work on. Let's work on building those skills together. How about we work on I mean, you have someone that wants to be in management. Don't look at them, don't know. Don't last. Now say, you know that's a that's a really. And tell me more about why. The way you said that I was like no bad dog. Yeah. No I do that. Cit no I it's funny the way you present that in that way because too often people are said, hey, you're not ready. Yeah. But not given any tools like you're not ready yet. Well, why am I not ready yet? And I mean, the only example that I can give for that is like, if a kid gets ready to go outside and it's winter. Yeah, you're going to tell them, hey, let's get you a coat and some boots on. If they're standing there in their socks and underwear. Yeah, you can say you're not ready. But the kid's like, no, no, no, I'm ready. You're not ready right now. You're not right. Yes. That's. So if you you have to show them, hey, here's a jacket. Here's how we put the jacket on. Here's snow pants. Here's how we put the snow pit. Those are the things that you have to show them. Clarify those expectations. Correct. Here's where you need to go. Not just you're not ready. Because I guarantee you that kid is running out into the snow. Yes. And it's really and it's okay for you to have the conversation of, you know, you're not ready yet. Here's where we need to go. Yes. And then also modeling what you want that part. And don't forget about them. Don't leave them over on the island in their professional development plan. Like we have someone right now in our organization. She's been with us for well over a decade, and we've slowly worked on getting her to a space where she has developed. And this is no longer job. This is career now. So we had a conversation about two months ago, and she has told me several times, I'm not ready or I've told her, we're going to move you forward. Here's how we're going to work through that. And now we had the conversation together of you're ready and you're going to move forward. And this is what we're going to do in order to get you where you need to be so that you can be successful, because some of it is you have to be able to coach those people. They have to be willing to be coachable. And if someone there's a difference between someone being coachable and accelerating in their career and being coachable in the job that they are in right now, I am perfectly happy. If someone is coachable in the job that they are in right now. I don't need everybody in the organization to want to ascend all at once. It becomes chaotic. Oh sure. And then you run into that competition and all the other stuff. Correct. So we don't we don't have to deal with that. Fortunately, an organization. But I think it's really important that you show people the leadership skills that they need to build. You don't block their path. That's the other part is if they want like you have, as you grow as a leader, as your business grows, you are not going to be the only hero you know, and you got to let other people be the hero. Yes, the the one word that I want to like, focus on that. You said there was path. Too many times people say you're not ready and they just. And I'm not going to show you. Right. And they just leave them standing there. Jerks. Like, here's a path. There's there's a certain speed you may be able to go on on this path, but know that this is a path at least. And we may take turns on this path. Yes, but. There is at least a direction that we are headed. Not just sit your ass down and shut up until I call your name. No. And then you wonder why people quit. I don't know why anybody wants to work for me. Someone because you're an asshole. Go. Right. Sorry. Correct. What? I never that I always get when people are like no one wants to work anymore. I'm kind of like. For you. I correct. I always want to add that I'm like, really? I haven't had much of a problem. That being said, what happens when we've made that mistake? Yeah. Bob, you're a great salesman. I think he would make. As our sales staff grows, I think you would make a great sales manager. Go ahead. Bob, here's the new desk. Here's the shiny new car. And just the look on your face says, like it? Like, I feel like that was a PTSD look. Yeah. It's the reason why I was very quick. Christie went to a bad place. There, remember? Do you need a minute to come back? I do, I think a second. How do you rescue this? How do you save this? So I would say, first of all, it's shameless plug in. I do not care. You need to call an expert who can help you do this, because you are probably not going to navigate it unscathed. If you try to do it alone, you're probably still going to have some some bruises because you that's just not working. So it is really important that you have somebody who can help you see what what you can do, what you can't do. We're just going to reverse this. Like it didn't even happen and take back your pay. Take back it. Yeah. Talk to somebody. Make sure you're doing it the right way. So that's that's number one. Don't undo this. I want to swear I'm not going to. You can't undo that. So just let somebody else help you through it. You can undo a promotion, but how you do it matters 100%. So. And here's what I will say to we talk about dignity. We've talked about it in terminations not stepping on people's dignity. When you have a termination demotion does not equal humiliation. No change in direction does not equal humiliation. So you have to handle, however this conversation goes, you must handle it with respect and dignity, which is another reason why it's helpful to have a third party in there who can help you navigate. Because chances are you're dealing with your own emotions because you made a bad decision to. So no, now you know. That would never cloud my decision. Yeah. So I would say to you want to frame it as realignment, not removal. So we put you in a role that doesn't play to your strengths. I love that piece because the problem is we did this. We screwed this up. Yeah. I'm sorry I mess this up. And for you to say that is one thing. Now, the only other thing that I say that the it. There needs to be some elaboration. Yes, because the problem is documentation. You have to go in with documentation. This isn't working. Is not. No, that's not documentation. But the other thing that I see is, is you have to give them something to go off of, not just, we're we're going to go to a different we're going to go in a different direction. Because when people say that that doesn't take the sting of that demotion. Yes. You have to say you can't say we're going to go a different direction. You have to follow that up with this is the direction that we're going and why. Yeah. And it has to be an, an accurate thing that once again respects that person, respects why it's different. All of those things you have to think about, you can't just be like, we've decided we've. We're. We're going to go ahead and go a different direction because that once again, you may as well just say, hi, you're an idiot. Go back to the sales floor. And sue us because we say that's wrong. And I would say to the longer you wait, the more damage is done 100%. So to them, the person that you have promoted to failure and to the team. So you know, fast course correct builds more trust and letting them quietly fail. 100% because when you let them sit there and flounder. Yeah. Or they're flailing about, they have I mean, they are feeling underwater too. They are. And there are some people that when you have this conversation, when it's done well, we'll say thank you. Yes. Thank you. I don't like what I'm doing. I would really like to do something else. I really like to go back to my old job. I like to keep the pay that I have. You're like, okay, I screwed that up. So yes, you get to keep it. Yep. Yep. And it should be. Yeah. There's so many things with that. The the rescue mission is one of those things. Well yeah. It's just it's it's fumbled so often and that's why I mean really the once again we come back to this. This is one that person's like look they just remove my dignity by saying you're getting demoted. And so now guess what? They're gone anyways. Yeah. Once you've done that they're out you. And depending on how you do it, if you don't do it right and create a hostile work, am I right? You can cause problems. Those individuals too could leave and take people with them. So again that yeah. Especially there's always that one charismatic person where you're like. Oh I follow them. Yeah. Right. Right. They are the pied Piper. They can happen. They can do it with your clients. They could do it with you. It's like, how do you lock it down? How do you ensure that everything works the way it's supposed to? Yeah. How do you not screw it up? Even though you've already screwed it up? That's why you call an expert. The funny thing is that I was just thinking about with this, we are talking about how to handle rock stars. And you and I are both scared to death talking about this topic like oh this is, this is, this is bad. I know Daniel right. That's part of it. Part of it is we know we've done this. It's. Yeah. And but it's so tough because I mean we're talking about like rock stars having rock stars in your business, which it's wonderful. Like you're like, I just, I just think the thing and the person goes out. And I love them. I love them dearly. And you're like, this is awesome. And then we go in and screw it up. Yes. So yeah, there's so many reasons why, like, we don't want to discourage rock stars. Now in the same sense, we want to make sure that you handle them and the way that you work with them in your organization correctly, at least when it comes to promotions. Yes. That being said, a couple of key takeaways here to me. Yeah. I like a trial period to have someone shadow things. It makes sense. Like, is this what you actually want to do? Yes. Here's here's the job. Do you want to go in and tell Susan that her TPS reports need another cover letter? Because if you don't, this probably isn't the right job for you. No. Go ahead with the next. So I would say professional development is non-negotiable. Yep. When you promote promoting someone without leadership training is irresponsible. It absolutely is, and I don't. I will look at you with a straight face and go, you can't do that. So if you promote, you owe them coaching, you owe them feedback. You owe them tools, you owe them support. And we talk about this all the time at clarity. And with resilient operating system, resilience and leadership are trained. They are not assumed. So you have got to train this into your team members. Yes, 100%. So, something else that most people don't realize with this is it's making sure that they know and you define it very early. Success is measured by how your team performs. Yes. When I was at the truck dealership, if someone quit, someone left, someone got fired. They were my responsibility. It didn't matter what department they were in. I had oversight over all of them. So it it was me. They're my people. They are my people. That is that's a big deal. And when you say that to a rock star and be like, look, if Billy Bob quits next week, that's on you. Who? Yeah. That's, that's a different thing. So yeah, defining that success. Like, hey, if the team takes off and does really well. Awesome. Thank you. We're going to reward you for it. Yeah. If the team goes out and blows chunks, guess what? Still on you? Yes, I agree. And I would say as CEOs we have to redefine what success is at the top. So. Oh yeah. So stop rewarding only output and start rewarding impact. Because if we don't refine and redefine that, do that. What again? So stop rewarding only output and start rewarding impact. That's huge. Yeah it is, because if your compensation and recognition systems only celebrate producers, you're going to keep creating accidental managers. And you don't want that. So leadership success is measured by team health not heroics. And if you don't redefine that standard, your culture is going to keep repeating the same mistake. And you're like, I don't understand why we we get a really good sales, we work on a sales manager and then they're gone in six months. It's happened six times. Don't look at me like you're shocked. Stop. So here's here's a conundrum, and I wonder how we're both going to, like, look at this one. Better to hire a manager from outside who knows how to lead. Or an insider that knows the work, but not leadership. So I think it depends on the problem that you're solving. I like that. So if you need stability and leadership maturity, fast and external hire can be really the right move. If you promote internally, you have to invest in that leadership development because you either know if they've had it or they haven't. Otherwise you're promoting potential without support. So that's the question. Are you going to promote potential without support, or do you want somebody and who can hit the ground running? Now that said, you can interview someone, you can hire them. And they they may look good on paper, they may not look well in performance. So I would say though, if you're trying to solve something quickly, usually an external hire can get you a movement faster. What are you. Hey, I agree, for the most part it is that situation. It's very situational, but for the most part, I have found that bringing someone in from the outside that at least has some industry knowledge is a bigger deal, is a better deal than pulling someone up. In many cases they may know the organization, which is awesome. But if you have good procedures, if you have good, solid, like if you have a solid background, a solid support system, bringing someone in from the outside that has that natural leadership talent that wants to serve others, that's tougher to train. Yeah. I can typically train people on doing the thing. I cannot typically train people as well. There's some that just know. And I mean, if they're a cultural fit, they're a cultural fit. Yeah, but. There's some that you just know have this leadership thing that will be a great culture fit. And you're like, look, you can learn the industry. You can learn the items. Yeah. So yeah, that's that's the way that they look at that. What's something that you see in a rock star that makes you say right off the bat, they're going to be terrible manager. When they're impatient, when others struggle. Oh that's a good one. Yeah. So if they believe that doing it themselves faster is always true, they're going to suffocate their team. I can do it better myself if it's I can do it better myself. And they're not patient. When people need a better understanding. That's a huge red flag. But for you, for me, it really comes down to the core value. If you have someone that's a rock star that is willing to look over and be like, hey, let me help you with that role. Yeah. That that's success is a shared thing is huge. I mean, we try and we we put it everywhere in our business. Yeah. And if they're willing to look across the table and be like, hey, let me help you with this real quick, that is someone that has the potential. If it's someone that knows better and knows that they can say five words to the person across the table and they're not going to get better. Nope. No. No way. What about performance reviews for managers? Should they be 100% based on team feedback? I want to know your opinion because I have one. Performance reviews for managers 100% based on their team's feedback. Absolutely not. Good job. My guys ding ding ding. I like to me, I don't think their feedback should have anything to do with it. Now hear me out here. Okay. Hear me out. You will see it. You will. It. You don't. You shouldn't. Like. This is one of those things you shouldn't really need to go and be like, hey, Bob, good boss. No, you shouldn't need to do that to me. You should just be able to walk into the room and look at like, hey, are things running. Well? Yeah, if they are. And people look happy or at least remotely happy, or they don't look like they're ready to stab each other, you're probably doing okay. What are your what are your thoughts on that one? So I think, you know, team feedback should be part of the input. So and this is where I think I, I tend to be a little bit different on 360 feedback. I think it's really important for managers to be able to see it, to be able to quantify it. Sure. And if you're documenting you don't have an issue with this, but ignoring that data can be how bad managers stay too long. So it's important that you document to some degree you've got to have a pulse. So it can be a component. Doesn't have to be the only thing because there are times where if you're dealing with innovation, change and transformation, not everybody's going to like that and they're not going to put it nice things in a performance review. Now. You said performance review and document. And if you did that, do you know what our next episode is going to be? Oh, I do, you do, I do. You are becoming the Segway master because next week we are talking about how reviews are a tool, not a burden. Because I know so many managers like every year, like I gotta do these. Tis the season annual. Like this. And They get all grumpy about it and they do. And there's no reason to be. No, they make it sound like we just dumped, like, hey, go ahead and do your taxes manually. That's not the case. You know, do us a favor. Hit all the socials for business ethics podcast, go to the Business Fix podcast.com if you want to check out old episodes. If you want Chrissy and I to come speak at one of your events, do a webinar, anything like that, we would love to do that. We will. We will take our comedy show on the road. That being said, like like I talked about, reviews are a tool, not a burden. That is next week's topic to us a favor. Take care of yourselves that you can take care of someone else too. We will see you very, very soon. Stay.