The Nice Leader Trap: When “Nice” Creates Dysfunction

Are you the “nice” boss who hates conflict… but lies awake replaying the conversations you didn’t have? In this episode of The Business Fix, Chrissy and Josh unpack the Nice Leader Trap, when leaders avoid hard feedback to protect their own comfort, and accidentally torch trust, culture, and performance instead.

Using Chrissy’s own “nice leader” ulcer story as a jumping-off point, they dig into toxic niceness vs real kindness during Workplace Kindness Month, and why “I just want them to like me” quietly wrecks teams.

From there, Chrissy walks through the Four C’s of the Nice Leader Trap: Comfort, Confusion, Compromise, Collapse, and how leaders create chaos when they sugarcoat instead of saying the thing that needs to be said. They reframe radical directness as an act of kindness, not cruelty, especially for small and medium businesses where every role really matters.

Josh then tags in from the operations and marketing side, showing how “nice” sales promises and vague expectations turn into broken SLAs, angry clients, and teams stuck eating “crap sandwiches” because leaders wouldn’t set clear standards up front. (Yes, including the “fire hose myth” of marketing ROI.)

Together they get super practical with the “sweaty 10-minute conversation”: how to normalize tough feedback, protect the standard (not the story), and give direct, humane coaching without blowing up the relationship. Then they tackle kindness vs niceness, drawing the line between protecting your own comfort and protecting your people’s growth.

In the Quick Shot segment, they rapid-fire through:

• The “Let’s circle back” trap and other “nice” phrases that just delay clarity.
• Whether AI in HR is making feedback kinder or just making avoidance more efficient.
• And if today’s hyper-vulnerable brand messaging is genuinely human… or just performative content theater.

If you’re a small/medium business owner, people manager, or HR/ops lead who’s tired of walking on eggshells but also doesn’t want to be a jerk, this

If you're looking to get help with your culture, or to help out an entire group, reach out to Josh and Chrissy today!  We would love to see how we can help you, your business, or your event. Contact us!

ClarityHR is your fractional HR team, giving you real people, real support, and real solutions. Whether it’s compliance headaches, hiring struggles, or just needing someone to take the people stuff off your plate — we’ve got your back. So if you’re ready to stop using duct-tape and hope as your HR strategy and finally get some peace of mind, head over to ClarityHR.com

If you're looking to start your own podcast or maybe you just want to add the next level of professionalism to your podcast and brand, you should be working with the producers behind The Business Fix at Pedal Stomper Productions. Click the link to learn more about how you can get your podcast to the next level. https://www.pedalstomperproductions.com

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Transcript

0:30

Believe it or not, early in my career, I was the nice leader. Wow. Yeah. The two nice leaders. Oh, no, not the two. Nice. Yeah. No. Well, and it wasn't that I was, like, too friendly or too. But I was like, no, I'll fight for the employees and I'll go against the corporation and all. Yeah, it was bad. Yeah, it was bad. Um, yeah. Have you ever been the nice leader? Mhm. More than I probably should have been. Yes. No, no big story like that though. Oh I mean yeah we'll get into this. Yeah. Heartburn. All the things. Yeah. Ulcer. Ulcer. Another one. No, not another one. It was the same one. Same one. Good, good. Yeah. Find out about Chrissy's ulcers. Stay tuned. She's the CEO. He's the marketing and operations guy. If it's broken, you need the business fix. February is. And I'm going to go back to my notes here. Workplace kindness month. So why not talk about the manager that is too nice to people. Oh no, I always like I mean to me, just the the toxic niceness. The person that walks around the office. Hi. Are you having a wonderful day? No. It's horrible here because you don't do anything. One hundred percent. I would always be the person that would fire back. Nope. Exactly. They would just look at you like, well, why not? What am I supposed to do about that? Because they just walk away. Correct. Correct, correct. They they've come along. They have tried to blow sunshine where the sun normally does not shine. Yep. And, uh, I had sunglasses there. Yes. Always The problem is, is we talk about the difference between nice and kind. Kind is very much not always nice up front. Yeah. It kind is sometimes direct. Kind is well, kind is always direct for the most part. Yes, it's clear, but kind can sometimes hurt, whereas niceness doesn't hurt now. But boy, does it hurt a lot of things later. It's kind of like that. Uh, it's that wound. Yeah. That you're like, ah, that doesn't need an antibiotic. No, I'll just wash it off. It's fine. I'll just rub some dirt on it. I'll just keep washing this. And shortly after your arm falls off. No. Everything's fine. Um, once the sepsis kicks in and you have completely lost your mind, um, you are at the place that most first time managers are at. Yeah. I don't want to say everyone, but I will say almost everyone makes this mistake. Oh you do? You just do. Especially, I would say, especially anyone. Anyone that's in management I would say typically before their mid thirties. Oh yeah. Hands down. I see a much higher, um, instance of this. Yes. In that. Yeah. Um, and it's either they go to nice or they go to dictator. Mhm. Either way. Um, yeah. We're, we're going to talk about what happens when you get the nice person there. Uh, for me it's one hundred percent came down to if they like me, um, they're going to do everything that I ask. And then I started watching episodes of The Office about that time. Um, and I was like, uh oh, I'm Michael Scott. They don't like me. I, I, I want them to be afraid of how much they love me It is what it came down to. Uh, I know you see this all the time. How does a leader's desire to be liked? Or the nice leader? If I'm nice, they'll love me. Yeah. Um. I have a tough time saying that without throwing up a little bit in my mouth. How does that eventually lead to that cultural dysfunction that we have all seen in all kinds of businesses? Yeah. So I'm going to start by owning it because I've been the nice leader. I know you said you've been the nice leader too. I thought I was being kind. I was being supportive. I'm being patient. You're a doormat. I'm doing. I was an absolute doormat. Same doormat. Or the other part of it, too, is that I am avoiding discomfort being a chicken. Like, I don't want to say the things that I need to an avoidance. It always sends the bill later and it's usually way more expensive with interest. Correct? So over time, you know, I've realized, you know, when nice leadership breaks down, it almost always shows up in the same four ways, and they all start with the letter C. So I know I'm shocked, ironically, when I can put all these things together and I and I prepare, I get the four C's of the nice leader trap which are comfort, confusion, compromise, and collapse. So yes, that wasn't the those aren't the C's that you thought of. No, no, there was one. No, it's not that one. Okay. So the first seat comfort. So that is really protecting yourself, not the person. So nice leaders stay quiet because they don't want to feel awkward. I don't want to make people feel uncomfortable. I don't want myself to feel uncomfortable. So I'm just. I'm not gonna say anything. It's funny you say that because in so many cases, for me, the excuse that I made, I don't want them to feel uncomfortable. When really it was. It was all about you. It's not about them. You really don't care. Just be honest, humans. We care about avoiding pain for ourselves. Unless they are our children. And our employees are not our children. We're just we're going to avoid this for pain ourselves. But, you know, silence isn't neutral. It protects the leader's comfort at the expense of the employees growth. It really does it. Clarity. We see this all the time. Leaders think they're being kind, but they're actually withholding information that someone needs to succeed. So what you're doing is you're holding people back. And, you know, Gallup did this workplace survey. They workplace survey everybody all the time. But they most recently they did a survey about, you know, meaningful and timely feedback. And so not those delayed annual comments that you give one time in a performance review and then forget about. So eighty percent of employees are fully engaged when they have direct conversations. It's one of the biggest drivers of performance that you have. So not just avoiding the conflict or just I want everybody to like me. So I don't want to say anything that might upset them. Sometimes employees want to be upset. They want to know how they're doing. They want to know how they can improve. So it's time to learn how to have that sweaty ten minute conversation. You know, we've talked about several times. Deal with your own internal mess. The internal feelings of I don't like how this is going to feel, because if silence is about protecting your comfort, it's not kindness. And you're not being nice, you're being a jerk. It's funny how by trying to be nice. You're really the jerk. Yeah, you're the asshole. It's you. You're the problem. So let's talk about the next C, which is confusion. And this is the cost of unsaid expectations. You know, not giving that feedback. Right? So when leaders avoid direct feedback, confusion fills that gap. Employees are going to fill things with with something else. They're going to play guessing games. How they're doing. And people, especially your team members, are terrible mind readers. They are. I've watched employees spiral into anxiety and disengagement because no one ever clearly told them where they stood. And that's not a performance problem. That's communication failure. So confusion really comes from your lack of communication. So you know, Gallup again. Continuing with that survey, ninety six percent of employees believe that regular feedback benefits them, yet only of those same that were that were surveyed, sixteen percent say their most recent feedback was deeply meaningful. So you've got ninety six out of one hundred saying, hey, I really like feedback. It benefits me. And sixteen percent of them out of that, ninety six are saying, yeah, but I got meaningful feedback. So there are eighty people out of one hundred that are going. No one, no one freaking talk to me. I don't know what's going on. Help! And that's confusion. The funny thing is, is you see me smiling. Yes. You do not see a confused nor a surprised look on my face? No, not at all. So you have to take the time to be clear in your communication. Unspoken expectations don't disappear. They turn into confusion. One hundred percent. Agreed? Yeah. So the third C is compromise. And this is the nice. This is the nice piece. It's lowering the standard to avoid the sweaty ten minute conversation. So this is where vision quietly dies. Because, and I would say it's not so quietly. I was about to say it is kind of quiet because it's just you forget about it. Yeah. It's like that plant in the corner. I had that standard. Yeah, it would have been nice. It's that plant in the corner. You forget the water. It just wilted and died because I forgot it didn't scream. When leaders tolerate mediocrity to avoid that sweaty ten minute conversation, they are compromising the standard and the mission. So I've had to look in the mirror, admit I wasn't holding people accountable because I didn't want to disappoint them. And doing that, I've disappointed the business, and that's where you really have to think of, like, you know, where is my mission? Because often I hear leaders, especially in family business, my mission is the people know your mission is the business. The business has to survive. If you let the people run amok, or you don't do the things that you need to do to communicate with the people so the people can do the things so the business is successful, then the business slowly dies. Then what do you do with the people? You failed them. If you really want to do, do right by the people, do right by the business, and make sure that the business is a healthy organism. So McKinsey, another group that loves to survey people. They did a workplace survey. Really I know they're amazing. Found that companies that truly focus on people and performance are four point two times more likely to outperform their peers and see higher revenue growth. You want to hit your goals in twenty twenty six. Don't compromise. All right. Give the focus on performance. When you let mediocrity slide to stay nice, it costs you that advantage. Yeah. So so much of leading in the C-suite, I think in really leading as as a visionary of your small business is managing yourself to manage human behavior. Let me say that again. You've got to manage yourself to manage the human behavior. You have to lean into that uncomfortable. And if you don't have the skills, you need to develop those skills, because if you compromise the standard, you've compromised your vision. Yeah, yeah. And I see it too, is if you compromise the standard for one person, you have now compromised for everybody. Yeah, you've done it for everyone. Yes. So in the fourth one is, you know, collapse of trust. And it's really simple and like knowing that your best people are watching. So this is the most expensive consequence out of all of all of the three wks four wks. It's it's dealing with the collapse of trust. So high performers see everything when poor performance is tolerated. For the sake of being nice, all of that trust erodes. And we talked about this in a lot of other episodes. You know your best people don't think this leader is kind when you're not doing what you're supposed to do, when you're not so nice to me. Yes. No. They're thinking that the leader isn't protecting them. The leader isn't protecting the team, which means they don't care about me. And that's when those high performers start to engage. Because if you're not caring about the business, you're not caring about those high performers, and that's when they disengage or leave. And so twenty twenty three Data Team survey by Gallup. It was the last it was the first survey after they did the big Covid survey found that teams with high psychological safety, especially as we're leaning into innovation in twenty twenty six with AI adoption. It's really important that they are high. Psychological safety has a product of direct and honest communication. And those organizations that have high psychological safety outperform others by twenty seven percent on innovation and eighteen percent in customer satisfaction. So you want to be heads above your competition. Build trust one hundred percent. That's it. I mean, it really underscores that trust and candor correlate with performance, and the absence leads to disengagement and turnover. So when you know, teams feel safe to speak directly, not gloss over those hard things, they outperform others. I mean, that's trust paying off. Without it, high performers quietly disengage. And I would say high performers don't quit because leaders are too direct. They quit because leaders aren't. I agree. Yeah, wholeheartedly. They it's funny because when you see the high performer wants that direct feedback so they can do better. Yes. That's why they're a high performer. They do. So what you need to solve for these four keys. And it's something that I really had to solve for myself too. And it's why I've had to reframe into radical directness as kindness. So direct conversations aren't punishments. We reframe them and understand that they're really investments in our business. They say, I care enough to be honest with you. Niceness protects comfort. Kindness creates growth, right? So as we recap through these keys, you know, comfort creates confusion. Confusion leads to compromise. Compromise causes that collapse of trust. And radical directness is what breaks that cycle. It replaces comfort with clarity, replaces confusion with honest expectations, and it replaces compromise with standards that people can trust. And you've got to remember that radical directness isn't about being harsh. It's about being human enough to tell the truth early, kindly and clearly. And when leaders do that, trust doesn't erode. It actually strengthens. And I would say the most important part of all of that is telling the truth early, because procrastination is a huge component of dealing with the collapse of trust. Totally agree. Totally agree with that. Yes, trust is such a huge thing, and what people don't realize is if you let's call it a deposit, let's say let's treat it like a bank account. If you deposit ten dollars, ten dollars, ten dollars, the minimum you can take out is one hundred dollars. Doesn't matter. You have to do ten things right to forgive that one hundred dollars. Wrong. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, people need to see that. So, Josh, how does culture avoid tough talk impact the bottom line and operational efficiency. How's it? How's. I'm afraid I just want to be nice. I'm afraid to have the hard conversation. Um. Me personally, um, I have been accused of being under nice at times. I have two more recently. Yeah, there's there's a certain point where I'm like, this is the thing. And I'm like, well, you didn't need to put it that way. There's an arc in your career map, I think, as every human where it's like, we hit that point of like, yeah, and it's too direct. You got to push it back. It's both personal and personal life, too. Um, the thing that I see is the sugarcoating isn't necessarily for employees to feel supported. Um, if you're supplying the tools, resources and backing that they need to succeed. Yeah, they can handle the truth. They can they they can they truly want that because they they know that. First off, if you're consistent with how you do things. When you tell them, hey, you've screwed this up. They know they've screwed it up. It's not just you had a bad day. So the part of it, that part of what I make sure that I am doing in order to be nice but not too nice, is. First off, we're offering continued training. Yes. Very nice. Not too nice. But once again, I am showing the support because I need my people to feel supported. Because sometimes I'm going to be a little too direct. I'm going to be like, you screwed that up. You're going to be like crying. You're like, oh, this may have happened. This happened this weekend. Not this week. Maybe not last week. Um, but yeah. So to me, like, I air on the, the supportive side of things because like, how can I help. Sometimes I can be under nice, um, or nice um, but nice deficiency the. Yes, yes. I didn't take my nice vitamin that day. I'm nice. Deficient. The other thing is too, is like goal advocacy. So regularly asking what their personal and professional goals are. Where do you want to be and like working with them to help that? Yes. Once again this is building that trust. So when I say something that's nice. Yeah. The other piece is removing those bottlenecks when they talk about it. Sometimes they don't have the tools or resources that they need. I like I just had two people in my organization be like, hey, we'd like to change this tool. They like the tool we currently have. It sucks. It's old. It doesn't work well. Um, I'm like, it does get the job done and where we're at this and I did the research. Yeah, they know I did the research. So when I came back to them and said, look, I know you don't like this tool. We're still using this tool. Use it. They're like, okay. So once again, I presented that in a way probably a little bit under nice to them. Like, nope, you're stuck with it. But it was there. Now, previously in my career, I would avoid the the those difficult conversations. And it's funny, I didn't really think about this until you mentioned something earlier. Okay. I felt the protector for my employees because I was working in a very, very toxic environment. They would fire people I don't want to say at random, but kind of at close. Okay. So if I had an employee that was underperforming, I would kind of be like, hey, go, let's let's look at your number. Let's do this together. Right? Let's do this together. Let me help you and let's, let's, let's work on your numbers, okay? Um, and it would be that quiet and it would be that hush hush. And I know you're trying really hard, but let's see what we can do to really, like, give it give it your all. Okay. And, uh, I know you're trying to picture twenty year old Josh saying that. You're like, who the hell is that guy? Is, uh, well, it's also no, because it's totally reasonable. It's it's fear of discomfort. We know as humans was everything that we do is to avoid pain, and that was to avoid pain. You're being nice to avoid pain later. Yeah. It's the it's really to me it's that it was that avoiding pain for me and for them and to try and protect them. Exactly. Um, in a highly, highly volatile environment. Because you know what could potentially be coming? Correct. Don't wake the dragon. Exactly. We're gonna tiptoe. I and I knew and the problem is too is I knew if one of my employees was underperforming, I was gonna get screamed at. Exactly. And to me, if you have someone in your organization that is being too nice to your employees, it's probably not them. Yeah, it's look at how you are working with that person to realize, hey, maybe I'm a little bit volatile. Maybe they feel like they have to be too nice to these people. Yeah, it's time for a conversation with them. A good question, yeah. On the flip side of this, I like we do a ton of marketing for people. I in so many cases am finding people saying yes with like, we were going with this marketing firm because they promised. Oh, no. The nice thing. No. And as salespeople, it is so tough to have that nice conversation and be like, look, yeah, let's set the expectation here because I know I mean, I see it in marketing all the time. I call it the fire hose myth. Marketing is not a faucet. Yes. If you say, hey, we're going to spend three thousand dollars in ad spend. Don't think you're going to get seven thousand dollars slapping you in the face next week. No, it's just it doesn't work that way. And as sales and service delivery as it relates to promises, you get stuck eating the crap sandwiches all the time. Correct. And that's the the problem is, is there's so many in marketing that are promising. It's a it's a tight field right now. Yeah. There are so many people that think they're marketers out there and it's changing so fast. One hundred percent. Yeah. And they just don't have the idea. So they make these wild promises like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we can do that. No you can't, because it's the nice thing to say. Yeah. We want to make you feel good. Right? Make you feel good. They just want to get that first check. And the problem is, is there are so many companies that are turned off to marketing because of it. Period. Because of it? Absolutely. Because they don't realize that this once again is put ten dollars in. Now put ten dollars in next month, put ten dollars in the following month, put ten dollars in the following month and you'll probably get five bucks back, then ten bucks back, then twenty bucks back, then fifty bucks back, then a hundred bucks back. But you got to keep feeding it. You got to keep paying attention. And it's not going to be tomorrow. No, it's a long game. Yeah. The two dollars tomorrow. Um, everyone says I want to spend a dollar today and get two dollars tomorrow. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. So that is the nice piece of the sales and marketing that I wanted to talk about. Um, the other thing is with that, I find to with nice leadership, it's vague instructions. Can you go ahead and just get the thing done for me? Um, you're not being clear, right? Not clear. You're not being kind. Um, when whenever you get to it, whenever you get to it, it's fine. You're being a nice A-hole. You're not correct being clear. Because when you when when the client comes in and goes, hey, it's Wednesday, where's my shit? And you're like, uh. And then you go to your employee like, hey, do you have the thing done? I told no, no. Yeah, those are the whole things. And once again, we've talked about this decision paralysis in an effort to keep everyone happy, nice leaders often struggle to make a hard binary decision. Sometimes you have to say, damn it, we're doing the thing. Yes. Damn the consequences. It's happening. Yes. Uh, you have to do that. Um, indecisions a decision every time you need to look at the team over the individual. Yep. Look at look at things as a whole. Not. I don't want to upset Bob. Bob's had a rough day. No. For the sake of your business. Your business is your baby, right? Don't piss off the rest of your staff because Bob has had a rough day. No bad idea. The thing that it leads to is oftentimes what we like to call suffering at scale. I like that just because you're not willing to suffer through one conversation. Everyone is going to have to suffer with the consequences of that. Um, the same thing. And I don't get accused of this piece. Um, some people, they try and be kind by adding fluff. No, um, I don't typically get accused of that anymore. Good. Um, I don't either. So. And once again, the, the the best example that I have of this is the fluff of, uh, right at the very beginning of office Space. Um. Hey, Peter, how's it going? That. How's it going? Yeah. He didn't care. No, that's the fluff. I'm going to try and make you feel good and like I care before I beat you up about something. No, don't even ask. Don't even ask. Hey, Peter, fix the TPS reports. Yeah. Oh, you already have that memo. Great. Yeah. Appreciate the work you're doing now to get that done. Thank you. Right. I mean, it's so funny. It's one of those things where I don't think they intentionally wrote the kindness in there. Yeah, but it totally fits. Oh it does. And the same thing is, if you want classic examples of this, I mean, this whole thing, we could have just played an episode of The Office. Any one of them. Oh, absolutely. Anything that involves Michael Scott. He wants to. I mean, he wants people to fear how much they love him. No, no you don't. No, no, no. I want my people to have respect for me and occasionally be pissed off at me. And they should be. They should be. Yeah, they're they're occasionally going to have a dartboard with my picture on it. I'm here to make them better. They're here to help me be better. Correct. We're going to grow the business. It's to me, it is that it's very much a coaching thing. Yeah. Uh, you've heard me say this at nauseam. Success is a shared thing, is our core value of our business. If my employees are successful, I will be also. Absolutely. In that occasionally there's going to be some Uncomfortable things. It's the same thing. Think of it as like a running analogy. Yeah. You don't get to the finish line, like, comfortably. No. At least not in anything but last place? No. Um. We're both big. You're the one that coined this, the sweaty Tim. You're the one that said this here first. Yes. The sweaty ten minute conversation. Yes. What's what's your first big tip on that? So it doesn't get easier by waiting. It only gets heavier. So you just got so much freaking do it. So but what helps is framing it around shared goals, not personal failure. So you walk in knowing three things when you have the sweaty ten minute conversation, what behavior needs to change, why it matters to the team, and what better looks like going forward? Yes, and you can. You can augment that with the dear man give fast framework. Or you can you can just answer those three questions, but know that behind every ten minute or behind every communication problem is a sweaty ten minute conversation you don't want to have. And that is Gay Hendricks The Big Leap. It's one of the best books about mindset that I've ever read. So the one that I, that I go back to is what better looks like going forward? To me, the goal here is where we need to be and from from my perspective, when I say, here's the goal, here's where we need to be, how can I help? Because, you know, those are the two things that I'm always going to say together. Here's where we're going. How can I help? Yes, ninety percent of the time they're like, I just need to do the thing. Yeah, you don't need to help. You need to offer your help. Exactly. But just be there. Yes. And if you are someone who gets emotionally hijacked because you're not being quote unquote nice, then really, like, practice the conversation, write it down, take some notes, coach it on your own, practice it in front of a mirror. And I know people are probably rolling their eyes like, really? I need to do that. Yes you do, you do. Because if you're not good at this and it does not come natural to you, you need to practice it because I promise you, your business will get so much better when you are good at having these conversations. And even if you preface it with, we're going to have a hard conversation right now and I'm probably going to suck at it, but we're going to figure it out together. I've prefaced conversations with that before where I've had to deal with something that's difficult. I'm like, look, we're going to have a sweaty conversation. I don't want to have it. You don't want to have it, but we're going to have it right now. And then we get through it. It's funny because this is the thing where I find the difference between us, because you've had to coach yourself through it. I'm just naturally an asshole. I can't be too. I just I also know that there are times where I can get emotionally hijacked, especially in working in a generational family business where there are there were individuals that were in the organization, like when I was in fifth grade and I had to deal with, how do I coach these individuals to do something right, or how do I coach them to do the things that I need to do? How do I create guardrails and expectations? I just want them to like me. Well, at the end of the day, there was one that was never going to like me because he hated the fact that I was in charge and he wasn't. I'm like, you didn't write a three million dollars check? And I did. So tough. Toenails. This is what it is. So like it is. Speaking of emotionally hijacked. So I had to walk through good conversations and I had to practice. Where people were like, you're so polished. It's like, because I've had to do so much crappy work on it. It's just. And it's not easy. It's hard. It's getting the reps in it. What's so tough about it? It's the same thing with our podcast. If you go back and listen to episode one, it's tough. It's still good. Yeah, it's tough, it's tough. But we did it. But I, I listened to this to be like, how can I get better? How can I make sure I'm on the mic? How can I eliminate some things that I don't like? How can I make sure that I'm speaking correctly? You have to put that work in and you have to be intentional about it. Yes. Um, unless you're naturally an ass like me, it's just. So let's go to kindness versus niceness. Yeah, sure. What do you think the difference is? So niceness protects the leader's comfort. And kindness protects a person's growth. Ooh. Yeah, it's that's really simple. Kindness is uncomfortable. Niceness is convenient. To be clear is to be kind. And it is to be kind as to sometimes do the uncomfortable thing for yourself and for that person. Yeah. It's the and it's funny because when you think about it, in so many cases, typically the hard thing is the right thing. It is the difficult thing is the right thing. And that's what you have to look at with this. Um, being nice is typically very easy to do. It is it's more difficult for some people. Some people are just natural born jerks. But we're not. And most, most and I would say our listeners aren't. And if they are, then I've got questions. Um, but I would say. How did you find us? Yeah, exactly. But I would say if you're staying silent because you're worried about how you're going to feel in the moment, that's not kindness, that's self-protection. Yeah. So I mean, kindness is really being willing to sit in discomfort so someone else can succeed. And if you're not willing to do that, then you probably shouldn't have employees. Correct. And I feel like the other thing is too, is you also shouldn't have employees. You have to say you have to be kind. And in being kind, sometimes you have to sit in the mud with the person that you just said that to. Yes. You can't just be like, hey, your performance sucked. Turn around and walk out of the room. You have to be there to address it with them. And that is part of that being kind instead of being nice. Okay. Key takeaways. I think we got a lot of them here. We do. You had some good ones here. I'll let you start with one, because this is I think this is more up your alley. So is the kindness check. So before staying silent, you need to ask yourself, am I being quiet for their benefit or to protect myself from that awkward moment? Is this about them or is this about me? Yeah. No, that's that's a huge, huge one. Uh, for me, the one that I want to jump to is the protect the standard, not the story. I like that. Um, look at what's actually happening. Look at, like, what? Your standards are not the fact. And, I mean, I get that if someone's having issues, if someone's having personal problems, you need to address those things, but they still need to be addressed. Yeah. Ignoring them is not being kind. Yeah. And I would say you normalize your nervous system. So if the conversation is hard or it feels hard, just name it. You know you can say this might feel uncomfortable, but this conversation matters. You can preface it. It lowers defensiveness. It models emotional regulation. Leaders who regulate first create space for honesty to land. And even if the person doesn't like the conversation and the direction that it goes, you have at least shown that you are human, that you care, and that you want to be clear, and that it is. And this isn't easy for you either. I'm glad you explained that, because when you said name it yes. If someone asked me like, where are you going? I'm going to go have a bob. No, that's not what I mean. Naming it as we're going to have a sweaty ten minute conversation after the person. No, don't name it. No, no, don't do that. Okay. I just wanted I just wanted to check. No, I just just wanted to make sure. Name the feeling. Name the situation. Don't give it an actual name. Name? No. Uh, the other one is to schedule it, put it on a calendar, make sure it's going to happen. Uh, if you say. I'll get to that later. Oh, look, an email just came in. I'll answer that. Yeah. Granted, it was spam. Stop it. Stop it. Put it on the calendar. Just do it. Yes. Just get it done and over with. Well, and I would tell you to from an HR perspective, we document the growth. So you ensure that the feedback is documented and constructive. And you're giving the employee a clear roadmap for what better looks like, because there are some times where you'll have these conversations and better does not happen. So it's really important that you have it documented so that you can continue to figure out what your next roadmap is going to be. Totally agree. So I know like you're you're totally perfect with this, so am I. So we don't have we won't have an answer to this. But what's one nice thing you said recently that you wish you'd been more direct about? So let's circle back on that. Let's let's come back to that later. First off, I hate I know you hate that saying, but there are times where it's just like, you know, we're gonna put a pin in it. We're gonna let it go. All the things. Can I hit all the things that you hate? I'm doing it right now. But it's true. You just say, you know what? Let's come back to that later. That wasn't nice. Yeah. Too bad. So, you know, let's come back to it. What I really meant, and what I should have said was, this isn't working and it needs to change. But instead I'm like, you know what? Let's just let's let's table it for a moment and we'll come back to it. No, we should have freaking killed it. So because what I've learned that sometimes when you delay that, like when you soften the clarity to be nice, you create more work later. So I created more work for myself. And I was like, you know what? We're close to the holidays. It's open enrollment. Let's just let's just put that over here. And what I really should have said was, this needs to be solved and it needs to be solved immediately, and I didn't the I have, I have caught myself in that same thing. The only way. There's two ways that I will say that horrible thing, and I won't say, let's circle back on that. Yeah, there's only two reasons that I give myself as a way out on that. A we need more information that we don't have right now. B we are at a dead standstill. We are not making any progress on that. We need to stop and we need to come back. But it has to be shown that we are at a standstill and we need to like sometimes you just we're going to revisit this after a night's rest, right? Yeah. We're at a block on something as more and more people are typing their emails with AI. Yes. Is AI more or less kind now? Not nice? Kind. So I would say if you don't know how to use AI effectively, it's making it worse. And it's not not kind or clear. Right. So and here's my problem with this. Everyone according to everyone is using AI correctly. No they're not. Because like, to me, ChatGPT is the world's biggest kiss ass. It is. And kindness still requires courage. So you've got to be able to. Well, I just want. Let's see if they can make this sound better than what I need. And they're like, oh, this is great. But if someone doesn't understand what you're trying to tell them, it doesn't work. And you know, if AI becomes a way for you to avoid those conversations, you're like, I'll just have AI do it so I can avoid the sweaty ten minute conversation. I'll avoid the pain that's not making us kinder. It's making avoidance more efficient. So you're getting more efficient at avoiding the problem that you have. So I guess, yay for you. You've got more time to do other things that you've avoided that conversation, but you've continued to avoid other things. Yeah, you've made it faster. So I mean, yeah, I don't I don't think it's helping right now. It, it it will be able to over time if you can use it correctly. But I don't know that everyone's going to use it correctly. No. And I think the problem is, is most people that I talk to, they're the AI stuff that they are using is far too soft with them. And oh gosh. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, yeah, I was working with AI and it told me this, this and this and this and I'm like, yeah, no human would told you that. No. And I was working on something yesterday and I finally like, had to I had to re I rewrote the prompt because I'm like, you're you're not I don't need validation, I need data. Correct. Same. I've been working on a big project with AI and stuff and I'm like, you need to yell at me. I need you to call me an idiot sometimes. Give me my blind spots. Tell me what's wrong. Don't validate my feelings. That's why I have a therapist. So. No. Yeah. No, I totally agree on that. The the other thing that I found is too, is what I would say I, when I was being kind, would send a page and a half email. Yes, I did to AI would help me trim that down. Yes in some cases so that it would help me with. So if you type out the four page email and like I need help summarizing this. Correct. Yeah, that is a way to use that. AI is not it is not the writer. You have to be the editor. Yes. So yeah. Question though to for you on the marketing side as marketing trend I got a question. rise of vulnerability, authenticity and brand messaging. Do you think it's getting too performative? Oh, God. Yeah. Okay, good. Because I see so many people that and it's so funny. My I guess I would say my spidey sense for that. Hey, guys. Type of thing. Yeah. Is I get so turned off so quickly. Yeah. By most, it's interesting. Most content creators, I get very turned off by very quickly because it's so performative. Yeah. It just drives me insane. I see this and I'm like, oh, you aren't that person. No, you're this person in front of the camera. Yeah, but you aren't that person. Um, if someone meets either one of us in the street, they can be pretty sure that. Yeah, especially if they've watched the long form. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Snippets, too. I mean, yeah, this is warts and all. This is it. Right. That's those people. That's it? Yeah. That's very much those people. That's exactly what she says. She does rhyme a lot. Yes I do. Yeah. She puts that iteration together. Yeah. No, that's exactly what she does. But yeah. No I see that. And it's the problem is, is it's that performative. It's once again it's people trying to be nice instead of being direct. Yeah. I'm curious to see in the next year how that changes. I am too. The other thing that I'll say is too is I see it in so many cases with, um, like, I'll take a lot of content creators. I'll take a motorcycle review. Um, there's a motorcycle was recently released. All of the keyboard warriors were saying, this is wrong with it. This is wrong with it. This is wrong with it. This is wrong with it. This is wrong with it. None of them had ridden that motorcycle. Oh, no. I rode that motorcycle and I thought, this thing is amazing. It's brilliant. They did a phenomenal job with this. But I hear a lot of content creators are like, oh, people want to hear this. So this is what I'm going to tell them. That's what ChatGPT is telling them to say. Correct. Whereas the ones that I actually trust are saying like, look, I, I got this, I like this. There's one or two things that I'm like, overall it's brilliant. And those are the ones where I'm like, okay, these are the people that are being authentic. Yeah. Experience an original thought. Imagine. I know it's amazing that, um, speaking of original thoughts, there is forty two episodes worth on business Podcast.com. People should go there. They should look at all the stuff. They should binge all the episodes. Uh, just put it. I don't know if I'd be understandable at one point five times, but maybe it's. We're interesting too. At two times speed, I sound like a chipmunk. So I will say that I'm glad you said that because I've noticed that too. I do, I talk fast. Sorry, guys. Not sorry. It's efficient. It's Chrissy's highly efficient. Make sure you get us at the business picks on all the social medias. Would love to hear a review from you. How are we doing? Yes. Are we good? We bad. We screwing this up? Mhm. Who knows. Chrissy's like start punching me. Mid-episode. Any one of those things I already know. Tammy's gonna say a big yes to that one. That being said, next week's episode is culture. Dun dun dun. Hahaha. It's gonna be fun. It is. That being said, do us a favor. Take care of yourself. If you can take care of someone else too, we will see you very, very soon.