Minutes vs Miles: Stop Chasing Distance and Manage Training Stress

Miles can make a training plan feel clear. But they can also make it easy to chase a number without understanding the actual cost of the work.

In this episode, Coach Justin and Coach Katie break down the difference between training by minutes and training by miles — and why the better choice depends on your experience, your goals, your sport, and the stress your body is already carrying.

If you are a runner, triathlete, or endurance athlete trying to follow a plan without overdoing it, this conversation will help you think more clearly about volume, recovery, long runs, heat, terrain, and when “just hit the miles” may not be the smartest answer.

What You’ll Learn

•  Why mileage does not always reflect the true stress of a workout 
•  When training by minutes may be better for newer athletes, triathletes, and time-crunched schedules 
•  Why runners often get emotionally attached to certain mileage numbers 
•  How to choose the training structure that fits where you are right now 

Timestamps:

00:00 — Minutes vs miles in training plans
 02:27 — Why many runners prefer mileage-based plans
 06:50 — The downside of chasing mileage
 12:00 — Fueling long runs by time, not distance
 20:24 — How heat changes the cost of a workout
 28:00 — Why template plans can miss the bigger picture
 38:14 — The problem with arbitrary mileage goals
 47:12 — The case for minutes-based training
 56:16 — Time-crunched athletes and training stress
 1:03:20 — Why training by time can feel freeing
 1:20:33 — The limitations of minutes-based plans
 1:28:42 — How to decide which method fits you

For coaching inquiries:

Coach Katie → https://fuel2run.com

Coach Justin → https://tabularasaracing.com

Podcast Email → theenduranceathletejourney@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Welcome everyone to the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast. I'm your host, Coach Justin. I'm here with Coach Katie. And today we're going to be talking about uh training plans prescribed in minutes versus miles. This is something that I've seen a lot on social media and interactions that I've had with various athletes where there is a fascination with doing their training plans absolutely in miles, especially for new runners. You also find this in these template training plans that are out there on the internet as well. Everything is done in miles. But part of me has the argument that, well, maybe doing a training plan in miles may not be appropriate for a brand new runner, where it would be appropriate for an experienced runner uh building for a marathon. I think that there are pros and cons to each method, and I think ultimately it comes down to one question that we that you have to answer for yourself or your coach has to answer for you, and is are you trying to control workload or are we trying to measure distance? I think that that boils the conversation down to a pretty simple statement, and we are going to pick apart some of the pros and cons to each method. As we've talked about in previous episodes, uh I do training plans in minutes, where Katie does her training plans in miles. We've had this conversation many times uh in various episodes and offline as well. And so we thought that we would just kind of bring you um a more well-formed argument for for both and let you be the decider on what is appropriate for you. Uh Katie, do you want to st do we want to start with uh the pros and cons for mileage-based training plans, or do we want to start with a minutes-based? What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Let's actually.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Yeah, why don't you go ahead and and you lead and you lead this conversation um and we'll we'll chime in together.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

So I mean, I think it kind of depends a little bit on uh the runner and kind of the experience they have. So this is strictly for like a um runner, not necessarily for um I think it might be different for like someone training for a triathlon, so we can kind of specify that what might be better for something like a marathon versus like a triathlon. But for for marathon, I do think it's because it's people are generally, like especially if they've been running for a while and experienced marathon, are just more familiar with miles, and so they're they're comfortable with that. I I think there sometimes might be like a little bit of pushback from someone I would be working with who maybe has been a runner for a little while to to switch over. Um, so I generally tend to, it's it's interesting because I use training peaks, so I often put in both a time and a mile mile like goal in there, if that makes sense. So it's not as though there is no consideration for time at all. Um, and I am looking at it if it's taking a significant more time than I've put on there to for that person to get mile the miles I've prescribed, or you know, because I'm generally getting a bit of an idea of their pace as I'm working with them and kind of how long it's taking them. So it's not as though I'm only doing one exclusively, but I do focus more on miles. And I think most most runners, that's just what a lot of runners focus on. Having that pushback from somebody if I was like, I don't even want you to think about it, I just want you to do this amount of minutes. There's that sort of like, well, how many miles or what's my pace and that kind of that type type of questioning. So I just tend to put in the mileage goals generally, not always, but generally, especially for someone in which I know kind of their pace that I want them to go for that run and the miles I want them to complete. Um, I think it's useful for like the more race specific, like a marathon specific preparation. I think it can be useful to know mileage and having people kind of an ide have an idea of how long like the miles are running and how long it's taking them to complete it. So both, but the mileage piece in that sense, I think is helpful for like a marathon to know somebody can complete the mileage, but also to have that confidence of okay, I'm running this certain amount of mileage and and being able to psychologically be prepared for the race. To estimate weekly volume, it depends because again, like we'll kind of get into this. What might be the issues with mileage is the certain runs are going to be slower and certain runs are going to be faster. And if you're balancing it right, like whatever time it's taking you to run, like let's say you were to run 70 miles, if you're balancing everything right as a coach and having like the the more intense miles be balanced by the easy miles, it'll all it should always generally be close to a certain time. You know what I mean? Like you're not if I'm not doing it right and there's a lot of intensity, like sometimes sometimes I'm thinking of it like you're balancing all those easy runs with the hard runs. So at the end of the week, it's probably really close to a certain time. And it probably won't fluctuate all that much if you're doing it correctly. Is there a big difference, really? I don't know. And we can talk about that, but it might be easier to estimate volume in terms of mileage, but volume could also be measured in terms of minutes. So um, and it's just uh, I think the like I said, it's popular amongst marathonners and experienced runners. So I just think that's what most runners kind of tend to think in. Everyone asks, what's your mileage? You know, so it's just it's just like what miles are you running? How many miles a week are you running? These are questions that runners tend to ask themselves. And so there's a lot of things are being compared against miles or how many miles are you running? What's your volume in terms of terms of miles? So to get runners to kind of think uh differently in terms of minutes might be a little bit challenging, I think, especially for experienced runners. Now, newer runners, I don't I actually think might benefit from more of a minutes-based approach, but um, but there's probably some downside. I mean, can you think of any benefits more than that? I'm like, what do you have on your I mean those are bigger than that?

SPEAKER_00 6:50

Yeah, those those pretty much summarize the pros that I had.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

It's not like for this. It's like astronomical like pros. In fact, I think there might be more pros to like minutes based, you know, like in terms of the way you can estimate volume a little better and making sure someone's not overloading um not volume, but over maybe like doing too much work because maybe there are certain things that are causing them to slow down for some reason. Um, I think where mileage can be a bit mm of an issue, and we'll go into this too, and this is where maybe this is the benefit of the minutes-based approach, is where like I was talking to you before, where let's this example of somebody who's running 70 miles a week or 60 to you know, somewhere like that, 60 to 70 miles a week in preparation for their marathon, and then they're used to that. Like that's my max volume that I do for my marathon. I'm going to do a trail ultra, right? And I'm gonna train and it's gonna be a really hilly one in Colorado somewhere. And now they're going out to the trails, and they're, you know, their goal is to they they're thinking this is the mileage I need to do. And now their terrain has completely changed. And the running on a hilly terrain on the trails is going to be slower. So, like 10, 20 miles of running in the mountains on the trails could be hours. And so if you're still trying to hit that 70 miles, all of a sudden you've gone from maybe 10 hours a week to 15, and you're you're putting a lot more load. Um, that could be easily a recipe for injury without even realizing it. I mean, obviously you're probably realizing you're taking long, but if you're not actually looking at the minutes and how long it's taking to run that 70 miles, it could have a significantly negative impact on you if you don't do it, you know, slowly. If you don't sort of do, okay, well, maybe I shouldn't do 70. I'll start with a lower mileage and then work up, right? Um so that's one thing. I think also we'll talk about things like just things that slow you down, right? So if you have an eight mile run and it usually takes you maybe, I don't know, an hour 15 or something, but now you have a hot day or you're it's really windy, like that's happened to me a lot here in Colorado. We have a lot of wind, and I mean, oftentimes I'm running part of it into the wind and then part of it again, you know, so it might even out. But if you have like a really windy day or something that just causing you to slow down, then maybe now that's taking you an hour and a half. So even on accounting for that, that could be something. And obviously, someone that's uh an hour could take somebody could run nine miles, like a fast runner might be able to do nine miles in an hour, and somebody who's newer to running and just starting and um is just maybe doing run walk or something is now that's maybe five miles for that runner. And so it's a very different, right? So if I gave that nine miles that newer runner, then I that would maybe take them almost, you know, two hours to complete or an hour and a half or more, and that's a lot more volume for that person. So these are things I think you know we're gonna dive into, but um I think I think it gets a little bit complicated because I almost argue people should be paying attention to both, but um, if we had to sort of pick one or the other, but I think um, yeah, those are my sort of the benefits of mileage, but I just think it comes down to like pref preference a lot. Like the way marathonners and runners think, it's m mostly just mileage. And so convincing a marathoner or a runner to change their way of doing that and um think of it in minutes might be a challenge in itself, personally. I know for me it might be because I like I don't know, it's like a psychological thing, right? You're just thinking I mean it's not you're like, oh, and uh uh you know, this is the amount of mileage you hear pros talking about it all the time. Like if I listen to YouTube videos, which for some reason I like to listen watch YouTube videos of some of the more elite athletes, but they talk about hitting at their 130 miles a week, which is mostly not gonna be feasible for most people who aren't elite, but they're thinking, you know, a lot of elites are talking in mileage. I don't ever hear any of them saying, Oh, I've been I've ran 15 hours, you know, this week. It's always mileage. So I think that's just kind of something, whether that's good or bad, or the way it should be or shouldn't be, that's just kind of the way m runners tend to think and the you know, the way I guess the culture tends to be. So that's probably why I just do most of my training plans for people in mileage, because it's maybe not the right way always, but it's kind of the way it is for a lot of runners. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

The one question that I've got for you though is um for training plans that are prescribed in minutes, how do you prescribe the fueling plan to go with those runs?

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Because you mean in minutes or in mileage?

SPEAKER_00 12:06

In mileage. So if you're if you do a training plan that's in miles, how do you advise the athlete to execute a nutrition strategy for that run that is in in miles?

SPEAKER_01 12:18

I mean, I think that's where it's interesting because it's this is where I've now I'm thinking about it. I'm like, well, I don't actually always just think in miles because for most of my athletes I'm working with, I'm aware of how long that might take them. I know it's gonna give or take a little bit, depending on, you know, maybe how they feel that day or what the weather's like. But uh as I'm getting to know my runners, I'm kind of getting to know their paces and where they're at. So if I'm prescribing a you know 15 mile run, I might know approximately that might take that person an hour 50 to two hours and 10. So I'm giving them a fueling plan for like a two-hour, you know, per hour. And it's per hour. It's still per hour. It's not like so. That's where it gets interesting because my fueling plans that I provide are per minute based. They're not necessarily always mileage based. So it's usually unless it's like like an elite marathoner who maybe has um like in their marathon, they know they have a table with the fueling on it every 5k, then that's more mileage based. That's just because of that's the way it's scheduled out. But for most of us have to carry our own, I'm maybe doing it every 20 minutes. I want you to, you know, so it's that's where it is interesting because I don't do those fueling plans by miles usually. It's usually by minutes. So that's okay. Yeah, it's like you're out there. So at 20 minutes, I mean, no matter where you are, it whether you you're, you know, two at miles in or you're three miles or more into your run. So wherever you are at that 20 minutes, you still would be fueling. Because if I tell somebody that is maybe new to running and their pace is is like a 12 or 12 minute mile um to fuel every three miles, now they're not fueling until like 30 some odd minutes in.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Does that make sense? So I as much as I do mileage, I I actually now that I'm talking about it, a lot of what I recommend is minutes-based. So it's a combination of both that I am working with people in some aspect of both. You know, I don't think I ever just consider only mileage. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

So if you if you if you give an athlete a run that's in miles, say I uh today's long run is 10 miles, and you give them advice on the nutrition strategies, like, okay, so this is these are the carbs that we want to hit uh per hour. And how do you control for the degradation of pace as the run gets longer and longer? So the pace that they may run the first, you know, the first 45 minutes may be significantly easier or better than you know the next 45 minutes and the following 45 minutes. So as we experience these the cardiac drift, I mean the our body starts to kind of overheat a little bit, and so you might need to increase that nutrition intake and the my the subsequent miles are taking you longer to accumulate. So is that one of the reasons why that you don't do uh nutrition plans in miles just because of that phenomenon?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Yeah, I think it's just because if somebody is out there longer, like 20 minutes longer, I want them to continue fueling at that schedule. So it's easier to do it in minutes. I mean, ideally, people wouldn't be slowing down that much. Like, I mean, that happens, right? We have those days where um, but that's another discussion maybe of consistency with your pacing strategy because generally, I mean, in my long runs, the way I structure them, I'm starting out easier, warming into it, and then my later miles are generally faster. And I'm trying to finish faster. Sometimes they're just as fast as when I started, because in my marathon, I don't want that to happen where I slow down that I mean it happens. Marathons are traditionally very it's like those last six miles that you're just kind of hanging on, and it's very common to slow down slightly. Like that's a common thing that happens. But the less you can slow down those final six miles, the better you're going to do. So one of the things I really work with people is if that's happening, then there's a discussion about them starting out too fast, pacing wise in their long run. So, what I'd rather them do is start out almost progress it slowly, like slowly get a little bit faster and faster, and then really finish strong, even if it's uncomfortable because they want to learn what that's like in the marathon. So hopefully that's not happening. But I think prescribing it minute-based for fueling kind of covers that in case I mean, if someone's suffering that bad, hopefully I've had a discussion with them prior to that long run. Like if you get to mile 18 and you're struggling, don't finish, you know. So it's not always like I try when I'm working with people to be like this is the mileage I'm prescribing, but I also want you to realize that if you don't feel good, because runners are so obsessive about mileage, they feel like you have to push yourself to hit that, you know, and in a long run, for like a marathon, if I do prescribe a 20-mile run, that's probably one of the times where I do also look at out like um minutes, because I might say, I want you to hit this or three hours. You know, like if you go to three hours and you haven't hit 20, you need to stop. Or if it's almost 20, you can go like a few minutes over, but don't keep going and going until you're now running almost four hours to hit that 20 miles and you're putting a lot of um that's just a lot of wear and tear. So it's that discussion of like it's okay if you're 18 miles in and you're suffering, it's just not going well. You got 18 miles, stop there. You know, so it's it's when I'm working with athletes, it's a lot of discussion about space and what I'm wanting them to achieve in that workout. And if the workout's not going the way it is, or they're substantially slow, like, or the way I want it to be, I mean, or it's substantially slowing down, or you hit three hours and you're only at 19 miles or something, and you're really suffering a bit, it don't don't need to go an extra mile. It's really not going 20 miles is like a psychological thing for many runners. And it's like 19 is fine. Just because you hit 20 doesn't mean magically now you're going to be able to complete the marathon and it's gonna go great. Like, you know, there's nothing really magical exactly about 20. That's just again kind of a psychological thing. So it's a lot of discussion with my athletes. So I do bring up minutes, honestly, sometimes, especially in those longer runs, and I do kind of give almost like leeway to it. Like, this is the mileage, but maybe it's somewhere between 18 and 20, and I want you to stop when you start to really suffer, or like the you're slowing down so much, and it's not gonna be worth it. You know, like your pace is slowing, you're starting to like your whole form is just starting to go out the window. It's not worth those extra two miles because the risk is not worth the benefit. So a lot of times for me, it's that having those types of discussions so that my athletes know, and that kind of takes away maybe that pressure for them too, to be like, I have to hit this um, you know, exact mileage, because I do think that's an obsessive thing that runners have. We talked about running in circles in the parking lot to hit a certain mile. I mean, that could happen with minutes too, but and I'm not saying I'm not guilty of that, like because I am, but it's it's just like a funny phenomenon with runners. Like, I'm only at like 7.8. I'm gonna go run like 0.2, and they're doing like circles or running down and back, you know, in the parking lot or wherever. And it's I I I want to have that discussion with my athletes that they don't need to be so obsessive.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

So let's also bring up a scenario that I think is is relevant. And if you have an athlete that comes to you and they want to do uh an early season, an early season marathon, um you may be more comfortable to have those 20-mile runs in that training plan just because of the the time of year that it is and the impact the win the impact of the environment on the body um might be a little bit more conducive to having those types of runs in the training plan. Now let's say that that same athlete wants to come and do a similar marathon, but now it's it's in the middle of the summer. How do you make adjustments to the training plan based on the time of year that the race is? And how do you convince the runner or encourage the runner to not be so tied to, oh, I have to get these 20 mile, I have to get the 20-mile run, I have to get the 18, I have to get the 22, knowing full well that the draw that it would have on the body to do that kind of effort, the duration that it would take and the environment in which they have to do it in would dig such a hole that it's hard for them to recover from. Do you make those accommodations in training plans that you do that would be in miles based on the time of year?

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Yeah, I think like based on the time of year, again, I think it would be similar a similar thing. There would be like a cutoff of or some sort of range, I would give, because yeah, we do have to account for the heat. Obviously, I think I'm having a discussion of like I think the pace expectations have to be discussed whether what whether you're doing minutes or because you have to face it, like people are still looking at their pace. So whether you're doing minutes or mileage, I think having that discussion of okay, when there are I think online calculators you can find that take like your pace that you're trying to run and calculate like based off of due point, like how much you need to shift that pace. And I found that actually very helpful and sometimes I'll share that with people because it almost like it almost takes that um worry off of my, you know, a way of like, oh, I'm supposed to hit this pace. I'm supposed to do some marathon pace work in my in my 20 mile or like tomorrow I have a 20 miler and I'm supposed to do marathon pace work. But if it's hot, like I then I don't then I know okay well I'm gonna adjust that about 10 seconds because it's warm. And then I also know that it's gonna slow down my whole run also. So like I still might aim for 20 miles, but again I might have like a cutoff or if I get to 18 and I've done a lot of that pacework and I felt like my workout's been really good, but I'm just starting to feel like things are deteriorating, giving me the permission to say, hey, you know, I've already I've already done several long runs getting to again that psychological piece of oh I have to hit that last 20 mile or and otherwise my marathon's not going to be successful. But I think it is having those both pace-based discussions with athletes and then adjusting. So if you know someone's like for me, it's like I'm even if I adjusted my pace expectations a little bit, I think in within three hours I could still complete that. So it's more of like how am I feeling discussion of like is this heat really destroying me? And despite my efforts to eat and take in fluids, I just am not able to complete 20 miles because the risk of pushing myself is not worth it. Then I have to you know realize that but I can still complete that in three hours maybe less, you know, depending but if I have an athlete that's maybe their paces now are going to be adjusted so much that they're probably not going to be able to complete that amount you know within that three hours because it's so hot out like then it's like we're gonna adjust the mileage a little bit. So it's like you're doing 16 miles or 18 miles instead of 20, but the work, the effort you're putting in is equal to the load is equal to a 20 mile run because it's yeah I mean it's hard like people don't understand that. And I think that's where there has to be discussion but especially if you're train like let's say you're training for like August September for like an October marathon. So it's not really like a summer marathon but you're training for like Chicago but your training is in the heat you uh you know you're that that that heat is um the load you're doing the workload you're doing at eight 16 or 18 might be equal to 20. So it's just trying to get people to really think about it that way is hard. Because they're like, I gotta I think again it's that obsessiveness of I've got to hit 20. I've heard I had to do 20. And it's I think then that's where the role of the coach comes in. And that's why I think sometimes people really benefit from a coach because it's like reminding people and kind of it's being that like mentor of I yeah actually you'll be fine because it's so warm out and all of like all the adaptation you're getting from the heat and training in the heat that's actually benefiting you and the it's like the same amount of workload really as like doing a 20 mile run. Your body doesn't know the difference. The only thing that's different is the mileage. So that's again where I think yeah I mean I guess what you're to answer to your question is I do I maybe adjust the mileage goal down a little bit to account for the heat. So maybe they're not their longest long run isn't going to be 20 because that's just too much time out in the heat. So but then you have to convince people that it's okay you're getting the same amount of workload your body doesn't know the difference the body doesn't know you did 20 the you know what I mean like it it's hard for people to come out of that sort of obsessive mileage thought framework that they've kind of always and I I I am guilty of that absolutely guilty myself. Like I I can give an example for me when I did that half marathon after I was sick and I was supposed to do a warm-up and a cool down and I was supposed to hit 20 miles that day and it was warm and I'm doing my cooldown and I hit like 19 and I'm like I'm done. This is not I I put I can tell my body like I'm already overdoing it. I can tell my body is starting to break down a little bit my I can't run any faster than this. It's slowing down I'm like I'm done I hit 19 and that's where I was and it was supposed to be 20 but I guarantee you like with the heat and the the fact that I was coming back like the load on my body was probably close to 20 if not more in terms of like what my body was having to the workload. So you know I get yeah I was 19 like big deal right like it's doesn't like look like 20 on my training plan or something or on Strava but nobody actually really cares because I think I also recorded that like warm up and cool down separately so it's not like anyone's looking but it's just that mental mindset of having to like let go and be like it's gonna be fine you know like no one that extra mile isn't somehow magical.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

So yeah I think this is an important uh distinction that new runners have to have to reconcile and you know they they go and they find these training plans that are that are on the internet or they go to chat GPT and have some kind of AI based platform that provides them a training plan but they may not have the insight to know or to to to recognize that adjustments are needed. They're just like oh I have to I have to hit this I have to hit this but you know having enough experience to know the cumulative stress score that's going to be tied to that workout is going to be equivalent if not greater than if you ran more miles under better conditions. And you know training peaks when it when it comes up with with its stress score it just takes into account that one workout like what was the stress score of that one session. But I argue and this is one of the reasons that I I don't like training peaks score is that it doesn't take into account the fatigue that you had already accumulated before that session and what is coming up next. Next right so it just tells you how much that particular run took out of you but it does not take into account hey I did a tempo session yesterday I did hill repeats the day before I had an easy run but that easy run is still maybe not enough as easy to really shed very much fatigue at all. It just allows me to deload and not maybe accumulate a significant a significant more fatigue but it may just be enough to maintain the status quo. So that's why I argue sometimes is that you know recovery runs when I'm working with an athlete I'm less likely to prescribe recovery runs because the athletes that I do tend to work with are maybe a little bit on the newer side and so we're really kind of like building that that aerobic foundation and the stress that they accumulate just running in general regardless of whether this is zone two whether these are tempo intervals race pace intervals it doesn't matter I have found that recovery runs are still stress inducing runs so if you think that well you know all most of my running is still in zone two you have to understand that zone two is still an aerobic an aerobic building activity and there's still stress that is induced you're you're still making contact with the ground packed on the body from each foot strike can be anywhere from three to five times your body weight. So just because you're running easier doesn't negate the stress that the body has to absorb from that foot strike. So that's why I've kind of moved away from the whole recovery run mentality and do tend to either do lesser impact activities for recovery for this very reason. And it's this this accumulated stress that that really is hard to quantify it's hard to measure and it's really hard for new athletes to understand especially if they don't have somebody that they can rely on to answer these types of questions or even be preemptive with it because all that new athlete knows is that oh I I got this training plan from from Runner's world magazine. It gave me my my marathon build uh I'm doing this in like 14 to 16 weeks of of a marathon build and but they don't know that oh okay this person lives in Florida uh and their marathon is right at the end of summer which means that all of their training is going to take place in the heat in the humidity versus somebody who maybe lives in more of a temperate climate uh where they don't have that kind of exposure. It's the same training plan but they don't have that understanding as like okay I need to adjust this. And that's why I I do tend to like minutes based uh training plans a lot better than mileage-based but I understand the argument and I understand that you know there is to a certain level uh a need to satiate the insecurities and this is something that I wanted to bring up a little bit when we talk about mileage based training plans is that I think that there's a certain level of of insecurity for for new runners not necessarily experienced runners to um be quote unquote certain that they can cover the distance and they feel that oh if I can get this 20 to 22 miles in you know I should be comfortable but I've had a lot of conversations with athletes where they're not even comfortable having that kind of mileage. They want higher they want more of a certainty more of a guarantee that they can cover 26.2 miles you're saying they're like asking for like I want to do 20 like a 26 miles. They want to know that they can cover the distance on race day rather than trusting the process that gets them there and say okay if you've tapered correctly just because we didn't cover 26 miles doesn't mean that you can't do it today and do it well.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

So I I think that's one of the the pitfalls of using mileage based training plans is because I think this fuels this insecurity in new runners to really just focus on miles miles all the time.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

And I have a hard time is like a 5k is you know 5K 3.1 you know 10K is double that and then you have the half marathon and the marathon you know is 26 miles. And yeah I think that's part of it is like I don't know like I guess you can't really I guess you could do a race that's like three hours whoever runs furthest and I don't know but that wouldn't um probably happen. I don't know how you would do that. But yeah I think um that's probably part of it. And then I do think for newer runners yeah it's like they're worried it's it's a long ways to go like 26 miles. I mean I understand it because it's even now I've done I realize this will be like my 11th marathon but I've done longer races. I've done some ultra stuff and you know tons and tons of half marathons but it I I get it even now thinking about it, you know, in three weeks I have grandmas and I'm like 26 miles. Oh like why did I what am I thinking? You know like and but I've done you know that many of them and I understand the process and I you know I understand like it's gonna be enough because I've done it. But I think for someone new there can be that well what if I can't complete that distance and um that's why even when you look online at a lot of the standard training plans that you find I don't think I've ever seen one that includes a 26 mile run or anything really generally highest for like an advanced runner like an like you know because sometimes the plans are in like beginner moderate and advanced like the advanced plans might have 22. But I think some of that honestly now that I'm thinking about it is probably being fueled by again this comparison of like newer runners watching because now you know we have Instagram and like I say I watch I like to watch some of the elite runners and their videos they put out because I'm just curious mostly because I'm just curious what they're doing and I I don't ever emulate usually or I'm not like oh like so and so ran 27 miles. But you know I do remember hearing one of the female oh I don't remember who it was um running saying something about running a 27 mile run and her lead up to one like Boston or I don't know. I wish I could think of who it was I just don't want to misspeak and provide the wrong runner. But um you know I'm I'm wondering if maybe part of that is because people are consuming this information because they it is fascinating to watch what the elites are doing. But we don't need to emulate them because they are on a league like above us in their talent and ability like you're most people starting and running are not going to be that that particular runner probably ran that 27 miles in three hours. You know but but maybe but if it maybe maybe a little longer than that but it was an elite so I'm assuming her best marathon time is like 230 for 26. So she's probably slowed down a little bit but it may still be within close to that three hour window. So for for that particular person, three hours or 27 miles may be okay, right? I think that's probably what's fueling that honestly I wonder a little bit because you do have this um comparison now we can see what elite runners are doing more and more because they're posting about it. And I think a new runner coming in is probably watching that because yeah elite runners have a lot of followers. And so then they're thinking oh well so and so is running 27 and that is and then there's this like uncertainty about the distance and they're probably thinking I need to run at least 26 to be able to know I can implement complete 26. It's like well the reason you're training for the marathon is so you can because if you do 26 before you run the marathon you like I don't know. You've already ran the marathon like in in in the amount of stress that is on your body, you know you're you're not doing yourself any favor. Your your marathon isn't gonna your actual marathon probably isn't going to go great because you've already ran the marathon you know what I mean? Like it's not make any sense, you know, to do that. But I think I I understand I just hope that these people are um that are sort of uh saying that or or w worrying about that would hopefully find a coach or somebody who could help guide them that has the experience to know yeah to have that discussion with this individual because that could just totally ruin their actual marathon that would be yeah. They might end up injured but they are also the load of that I mean it takes me when I do a marathon like at least a couple weeks actually if not longer to be anywhere back to my normal of course I'm running that as fast as I can for 26 miles and that's not something I'm doing in training.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Yeah there there's one more distinction that I'd like to make and this is something that I've seen quite a bit uh in conversations online and conversations that I've had with people. When you have a new runner who's kind of just getting started and they make this commitment and they're just like okay uh I've said well what's your what's your your weekly volume if they ask a particular question I say well what's the weekly volume and they're like I run I run three 5Ks a week and then my long run is uh a 10K so what I find to be fascinating is that the more conversations that I have the more I see those particular responses. Very very specific like I run 5Ks and 10K that's my training volume. And I'm kind of curious on why there seems to be this fascination to settle at the 5K distance and the 10K distance. Do we think that it's because there are 5K and 10K races and that's just what they they that's it's just easier for them to think about it that way. Or if they're talking to people it's easier for them to communicate what their mileage is versus saying something like well my my weekly runs uh are anywhere between uh two miles to three miles my long run can be anywhere between uh five and seven you know something like that where they're not all the runs are exactly the same but they seem to focus really on those two particular distances and it's the 5K the 10k and I've even seen people it's like oh I do five K's during the week I have another 10K during the week and then my long run is like 10 to 12 miles. I'm just like good good grief. Are they running these all I think these these are runners where they're not training they're running for fitness. Oh and I think that that seems to be a common denominator with these types of conversations that these are people that are just running to run. They're not necessarily training something or they're not interested in performance. They're just seem to be interested in just ticking off miles and in terms of using that as an instrument for their their level of fitness but ha have you come across very many conversations where people that seems to be the response where these very specific uh run uh run denominations of 5K and 10k?

SPEAKER_01 40:40

Not really I wonder if it's just because the races they're you know 5K is such a common race distance so maybe they're and but I'm like are these same people going out every day and trying to run that 5K faster than the last one?

SPEAKER_00 40:54

Like how is how is that I don't think so I think that they're just going out and just looking to cover to cover the distance I gotta cover like a 5K every day or something.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Interesting. Yeah I think that's just like an arbitr like some maybe that's like a fad so I I wonder if that comes from if we were to like really dig in if that comes from like some sort of influencer type situation. You know of like I run a 5K every day. You know what I mean? Like I kind of wonder where that's coming from or if it's because that's something I really come across but maybe there is some sort of fad happening where because I know you know there's a lot of so-called running influencers and I'm just weird I you know I would it would be interesting to dig into that of like oh so and so runs like this one influencer runs like 5K every day and then they do a 10k you know and it's coming from something like that or is it because of the race distances happen to be that way? It's just interesting to me because I don't understand it. I'm like just run three miles and then you can run four you could run five you could run two you don't have to do 5K you could do three miles. Does it have to be three point you know one um can it just be three like I don't know that's interesting to me I'm never when I'm running I never think of it like I did a I mean every once in a while I'll finish like a three mile run and it'll be around 3.1 but it's not like I tried to hit that you know what I mean? I'm like it's just that I don't know I I'm curious where that might be coming from or if it's just this there you know people are trying they're new to running or they're trying to run for fitness and they're just trying to kind of hit a s have a specific goal and they've kind of set it at these distances that are just common race distances to be able to kind of compare it week to week and have an actual set distance but it is like well why just in my thought I'm like does it have to be specifically this amount I don't know. That is weird.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

And I I can't I can't figure out why why that is but and then I talked to him and I was like okay well have you ever thought about the distribution of your of your weekly volume and I know we've talked about this before on a previous episode on how you know we split up whether it be total miles or total minutes for for a week and how we divide those up across multiple runs. It's like they just they make all the runs the same distance or the same duration um during the week and then some arbitrary like long run. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Because I do think like throughout the week it makes sense to maybe have like different distances like having some maybe shorter distance and then maybe more of a moderate distance and then obviously some distant difference in intensity but uh depending on the runner but I don't know if you're just running a run maybe it's just easier to sort of hit a certain amount um and that's okay. I guess for me it's like okay that's fine if that's your goal is just fit fitness generally then do whatever you need to do. That might not get you better, you know, you m maybe initially but if You're ever get you're gonna hit a point where you're not gonna get much better at running or faster or improve. But if that's all you're looking to do, then I don't know if I have a problem with it. It's just more like if someone comes to me and they're like, this is what I'm doing, and but I want to get better at a 5k or a 10K, I want to improve my time, then I'm gonna be like, yeah, that's probably not gonna work that great for you. So let's switch it up, you know? Like let let's not let's kind of come away from this weird obsession over 5K, 10K is a specific distance or these arbitrary numbers, really, and like kind of actually set a plan that will work. Because I don't think that actually that doesn't make any sense. I don't think that kind of goal is gonna really move the dial too much in fitness. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Yeah, usually usually the reason for that conversation is that they've implemented this this training plan and they're coming to me or they're seeking advice because they now they're now hurt. Yeah. And so, you know, that that's why I was where that conversation started.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

5k like every time. Like I've write into people who are like, I go out and I do like yeah, that kind of thing. Like I'm doing a 5K three times a week, and every time they're going out, they're trying to run it like a 5K, like as fast as they can every time. And I'm like, that is not gonna work. That's a recipe for injury, burnout, but you aren't gonna get any faster doing it that way. You know, like that's not gonna help you out at all. You're just pouting running as fast as you can three times a week, doing a 5K trying to get better is not the way you improve. So that's a discussion. So that's why I was curious if it's people doing that sort of situation where they're like, okay, I'm gonna do every time I run, I'm gonna do 5k, and I'm doing it as hard as I can. Because that's a different problem than I'm just running 5k because I'm trying to hit the distance and I'm just going at some sort of arbitrary pace that doesn't faster because that would probably definitely get somebody injured if that's the case.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

Well, uh a lot of times it's is these new runners, so there may not even be any intensity in it anyway. So they're they're basically just kind of like I don't want to say coming off of the couch, but they may be fit, but they're not run fit, and then they're starting to implement this. Oh, I gotta run uh a 5k uh you know two to three times a week and then do a long run on the weekend, and they just haven't built up to that they haven't built up to the 5k regardless of intensity.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

Oh, so they probably don't need to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

That's that's the point that I'm trying to make is that you know, don't don't be so fixated on these.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

They shouldn't even be there at the five.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

They need to be doing like a they're not at that point yet.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

Maybe a five K, but a red walk or like a two-mile run might be more appropriate. I get what you're saying. Okay. I guess two one or two miles isn't enough or something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

I don't know if it's uh I don't I don't think it's bragworthy. It's not bragworthy. I think that might be that might be a part of it.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Bragworthy, it's just interesting. I guess I don't understand. Somebody will have to fill us in on that if they have any insights because I'm I'm like kind of just as confused about that as maybe you are.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Yeah. So let's make the shift over. Now I think we've we've talked pretty pretty uh in-depth about uh mileage-based training plans and kind of the pros and cons from those. So let's shift over to minutes-based. Um, this is a method that I use, uh, one that I really like. And it it seems to work pretty well, not just for me, but for the athletes that I work with as well. I don't want to, I mean, I I've used this method for for runners as well as multi sport athletes. And I I could sense the pushback when I get when I give a runner a training plan and it's all it's it's all prescribed in minutes. I can just feel the tension on the other side of the phone call. It's like, oh, what is this? Well, how many miles is that? I don't know. It whatever miles you get in that time, that's the mileage.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

I guarantee you every time. How many miles?

SPEAKER_00 48:03

Yeah, yeah. But see, one of the things that I'm more focused on as a coach is I'm not interested in really in measuring miles. I'm really interested in in controlling workload and managing stress. I think that this is really, I don't want to say more relevant for multi-sport athletes, but I do think that they do uh carry a unique uh level of stress and fatigue on their body that that single sport athletes don't carry. Um they do have more options that, you know, uh if they're not able to get that run volume, you know, let's say that we're training for a half Iron Man or a full Iron Man, and they can't get they should not, in my opinion, this is my opinion, they should not be putting in the same run volume that a single sport runner would be putting in for the race of the same distance. So if I'm working with an athlete who's training for a half Iron Man and we effectively have a half marathon at the end of the race, the volume that I give that athlete is not the same volume that I would give an athlete just training for a half marathon. Um there is a lot of benefit and carryover from the bike fitness that you build. You're still building the same cardiovascular engine. Are you as run fit? No. But uh you do have uh, if not better, an aerobic base than the runner does. Um one conversation that I had with an athlete that I've worked with for a really long time, and we were chatting about uh some of the races that he had coming up and looking back at some of the past performances, and he said that you know, I want to I want to run uh in a triathlon like I do in just a normal run race. And I had I just had to look at him and just like, look, man, you're not a runner, you're a triathlete. There it's it's different, it has to be different. So thinking that you can come off of the bike after swimming and biking and be able to run a route like a runner would is unreasonable, uh, in my opinion. Uh there may be other coaches and other opinions out there which which are fine, but the way that I manage fatigue for an athlete, that's the way that I've that I've found it. Uh it does not benefit them in terms of recovery, in terms of the quality of their run fitness, uh is not is not the same level. So, you know, I that's that's where I tend to uh put my attention. And it's really hard when I have a runner who comes to me that wants to get into the sport of triathlon to break that mindset. Uh we we have to change how we look at ourselves and how we uh evaluate who it is that we are. It's like, okay, I'm I'm glad you're a runner, but this is not a running sport. This is triathlon. So we have three disciplines that we're trying to master. Um, and so we have to let go of all those preconceived notions. And I I don't know if we've talked about this in other podcasts, but I know it's something that I've talked about uh before. And I think athletes do tend to pick these races based on their run experience. So I have a lot of runners that I would work with getting into the sport of triathlon, they're like, oh, I've run you know bunches of half marathons and I've run you know a couple marathons. So I'm gonna start at the 70.3 because they know that they can cover a half marathon and they know how they feel after they do that, but what they don't know is how do how are they going to feel after swimming and and cycling for for the duration and distance that we had to cover. And I think that gets runners into uh races that they're not they're kind of overreaching a little bit. Right. Yeah, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

So we talked a little bit about that maybe with our run, like our triathlon, the marathon yeah, triathlon episode episode. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

Yeah, I like I like minutes because it allows me to control uh the training stress a little bit more. Um I'm able to um say, you know, hey, we're just the body doesn't care and nor does it know how many miles you've gone. It knows how long it's under stress. So trying to hit a particular mileage in order to satiate some kind of of need that you have to meet the mileage really just opens the door to to uh to injury and overuse and setbacks and just overtraining. So what I do is I just tend to it's like, look, this is the way that we're gonna do it. We're gonna be running for this number of hours each week, we're gonna be cycling for this number of hours. The only one that I do distance based is going to be swimming. Um just because I mean it's it's fairly easy. You're just going from one end of the pool to the other, the the length of the pool is fixed. Um and it's non-impact, so I don't have to be all that concerned on on a on a stress score for that. Uh I do have to be a little cautious um when when doing swim uh workouts in m uh distance base. Uh but if the swimmer uh may not have very good form, even though it's a non-impact sport, there's still stress that the body is under, whether they're effectively using the correct muscles to swim or not. It's very easy to kind of get some some tendons and ligaments heated up from you know smaller muscles having to carry the workload that bigger muscles should be doing. Um but just because it's it's non-weight bearing or it's non-impact doesn't mean that there isn't stress associated with it and fatigue that accumulates. So, you know, I I honestly don't care if you know the athlete gets through five, six, seven miles in the span of 60 minutes. Um, that is what it is because I know that if I give that workout to that athlete at a different time of year, that miles could be different. Or if I give them uh if they pick a different route. And I think one of the things that I've seen as a coach is with athletes who do distance-based training plans is they do tend to find easier routes to run uh in order to either make those miles easier, to make their pace a little bit faster. If I give you something in minutes, then I much prefer you do the harder route. You know, I'd much rather see less miles, but a harder run than you finding a flat route that's gonna be perfect for you to where you can get higher mileage and a better pace. I'm not that doesn't impress me. And that's not something I mean, I would rather I would tell them, look, well, this route is a pretty easy route. Um, whether this is synonymous with the type of course that we're training for, you know, that would be different if you know we're training for you know Iron Man Florida, the full Iron Man, which is going to be a fairly flat route. But, you know, then yeah, let's let's find some flat, flat routes to run in order for you to really understand what it's going to feel like to have those same muscles engaged, there's no undulation in the roads, you know, what it's gonna feel like to have that same turnover all the time, just to kind of build that neuromuscular pathway to understand what it's gonna feel like. But there's also the argument that uh running flat courses really only prepares you for running flat races. But running hills will prepare you for flat races and hilly races. So I much prefer the athlete to go tackle the hilly route and get less miles out of it because I know it's making them a stronger runner. And doing training plans in minutes, in my opinion and in my experience, encourages I think that kind of behavior because I'm not pushing them to hit a particular mileage. I'm just looking for just time on feet. I've also found that it's easier for time-crunched athletes to do training plans in minutes because they know how long they're going to be out there. If if I give an athlete a 10-mile run, you know, that can take them anywhere from, you know, two hours, two hours and 15 minutes, two and a half hours. You never know, depending on what the environment is like and you know how much stress they've been under, how much accumulative fatigue that they have.

SPEAKER_01 56:33

Yeah, I agree. I think with I think that's a good argument for like the time piece of it, because if you have someone that maybe they only have a certain time mount to run or time every day to run, then you have to kind of consider that. When they we are making their training plan, they're like, oh, I only have 90 minutes on this day, or I only have an hour on this day. This is kind of the window. Like I think having a time-based plan is nice because there is no pressure to be like 90 minutes, you should be able to get like, I don't know, eight or nine miles, you know, in that time frame. But maybe they are struggling or it is a different kind of route or it is hot. And so they're not like stressed about it as much of like, oh, I I did 90 I I only had 90 minutes and I didn't complete the distance I was supposed to do. And then I think that is a little frustrating, or you know, maybe they're they're trying to finish and it and then that's pushing their day off, or something, you know, they're they're stressing about this need to complete their mileage in that time frame. Maybe they're pushing too hard. Too, I think. Then an athlete might be like, okay, I've got to complete this in 90 minutes. Um, and it's prescribed at this mileage, and they might push harder than they should for that run because maybe they're feeling um fatigue. But the way I do personally training plans is like my recovery days, I'm kind of counting for that. Um because the easier days I might know that that person on their more easy day might run 9 30, you know, maybe it are their easy days or like a 10-minute mile, like but 9 30 to 10 30. So I'm kind of accounting for that, like in their training plan too. Like I in training peaks for when I like spent like let's just take me, for example, like on my recovery day, I might put 60 minutes and then put six miles in there. I know it's probably gonna be a little more than six miles, but if I'm really struggling, I did I can do 10 minute mile. You know what I mean? That's probably slow every like true recovery, but there have been times in my marathon training where that's it's pretty close to a 10-minute mile because I'm just really in that recovery mode and I can't go any faster. So that on another day, I might do a 60 minute and it's and I put in there seven and a half or seven miles because that day is a different goal. That day specifically, I'm running, maybe doing a progression run where I'm starting a little slow, but I know I'm ending fast. And then if I'm starting that run and I don't feel good or something's happening, I think then either way, whether you're doing minutes, like because you have prescribed runs, like every run is a prescribed something. Like it's either an easy run or like a fartlic or like a progression run or a tempo run, and you kind of have an idea of what that athlete's gonna run, even if you're not like prescribing a very specific pace. So I think I'm doing that anyways, you know what I'm saying? Like it's like I know, okay, you have 90 minutes this run. I know it's gonna be like an interval style run, and so overall the pay, you know, so I'm gonna kind of prescribe maybe I know you know a a a mileage, I know that they can run. It's not gonna hopefully put them over. And if they're that struggling that much at their pace is that much significantly slower, then I'm then something happened. Do you know? Even accounting for things like hills or I mean, maybe where, you know, maybe it is hot and I just am the mile that I prescribe is gonna be less. Is that you know, I'm just taking that into account, I guess, already. And so it's like, but I think I I get what you're saying. I think it if somebody's just doing a training plan based off of something they found online, that's different, right? You're I get what you're saying, but I think I'm just trying to think through how I go about this process. And I don't and I think the way it I go about it is I'm also actually thinking in minutes and not just mileage. Like I never put in training peaks, usually just a mileage. It's always got minutes in there. You have both sections you fill out, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:43

But I I don't think that that's a common occurrence if if people get training plans from online.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:48

Oh, yeah, I think it's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:49

It's it's all prescribed in miles. So I I think that the way that you do it is going to it's gonna make it better than if somebody just pulled a web uh a training plan from online and it's all mileage-based, there's no time in it. So there's you're right, you're right. Yeah, for that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

You're what you're making, what you're saying is making sense then, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:10

Based off that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:11

So if I have if I have a 60 minute run, that's an endurance run, doing it in minutes allows me to uh accommodate athletes of various uh abilities and skills. So if I have a a really good runner and I give that athlete a 60-minute run, they may get, you know, eight, nine, eight, nine miles out of it. And they accumulate a particular level of adaptation from that run. But if I give another athlete who may be slower or newer to the sport and I give them a 60-minute run, then they're going to get maybe six miles, five miles. The adaptation that they generate for themselves is going to be pretty close to the adaptation that the better runner, quote unquote better runner, generated for themselves. Because it's it's it's going to be relative. But if I would have given both runners an eight and a half mile run, what I would have done is I would have been spot on for the for the more experienced runner, but I would have overpushed the other one and and could have opened them up to something else, a little bit more fatigue than what I would really want for them. It could jeopardize the quality of subsequent workouts. And so that's why I really do like these minute-based, is because it allows me to normalize across uh abilities. You know, that that more experienced runner can handle that kind of mileage because the body is still under stress just for 60 minutes. So uh again, the body doesn't differentiate between miles, you know, it it doesn't know, oh, we we've we've been under stress for five miles. No, it knows that it's been under stress for a particular number of minutes. And I I think that that's one of the reasons why I push for this type of training structure.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:03

All of the other metrics would be similar. Let me, you know, because the heart rate for that, either night, you know, the heart rates are maybe similar. Everything else, all the load and everything is gonna be similar. So I agree.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

But it's not a it's not a goal that I'm trying to get them to hit. That I think that's the difference, is that this is not a target that I'm trying to get you to hit.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:24

I think planning a training plan with minutes could be very like I I would encourage people listening, especially newer runners who maybe aren't experienced. Um because I think for someone that is ex experienced, like n like I'm kind of thinking for a runner who has a been running for a while and I'm trying to put their training plan together, and I'm like, okay, I want them to kind of do um like a moderate distance run. For someone who's experienced, that might be like 12 or 14 miles, or their their pace is a little fast, you know, um quicker. Then a newer runner, like their moderate run might be eight, because it's yeah, I'm thinking like that, but it's not like I'm putting it, so it's like it's just the way I'm been running for so long, and the you know, it's like I'm thinking, but I know people want it in mileage, so I'm just doing it differently because I'm doing it for them. Does that make sense? Like that same scenario, that one runner I'd give them a five mile run, where you know, so I'm doing that intuitive, but I think um like intuitively.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:29

But template template plans don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:31

Templates plans don't do that. So you're right. And I think that's where I really think that it could be so even for someone like myself, you know, or or an experienced runner, to have that be a little bit like liberating almost. Because I think there is such a I know I fall into this just both anytime I've done a marathon, it's not so much, not it's just like the marathon specifically. I get so obsessive in a way about mileage. I know I do because I want to hit, you know, I I do want to feel competent and I do know that, and a part of it is just this experimentation again of that that trying to get the fatigue and knowing that if I hit this certain mileage, um, that's kind of where I've been in the past. There's something about that very specifically, but I do think there'd be something liberating about just doing, okay, all I have to do today is an hour or an hour. So, like, regardless of the pace, if I feel good, I'll go faster. There is something, and and I kind of have that in my plan, but not always. I do have a mileage I'm trying to hit too, right? So there might be something like I would I would encourage people listening to think about that. Like, how wouldn't it be kind of just like liberating to let go of mileage and that instead look at m hours? So just maybe your plan it, you know, you're trying to get to 10 hours a week of of training at the peak for your marathon. And whatever that is, it is. But you're just looking at it based off of, you know, then you're letting go a little bit and it's the same amount of load because like I said maybe that me maybe you're looking in Strava and in training peaks and you see for that mileage that's about what you hit. So in terms of minutes or hours, but then you break that into a training plan and you just let that go. You know, whatever it could be 72 miles, it could be 65. I think that'd just be so liberating personally. Yeah, I wish runners would consider that more because I think it makes a lot more sense in a lot of ways to do it minute-based. And if I had, you know, maybe and maybe in my view the future, like working with people, I would maybe be more inclined to suggest that. I'm open to doing it in mileage and I still kind of make adjustments based off of how long you're running. But um would you be willing to consider this because it may make more sense and kind of explain why about my trying to convince an athlete to to not run with their watch?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

Yeah. You know, it's it's it's liberating, but it's scary as heck. The the just the sheer thought of of running without a watch really kind of freaks me out. You know what?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:03

I'm thinking about this and I'm like in high school, like we didn't have garbage. I didn't know when garbage came out, but how liberating I think it was just to be able to go for a run and be like, I don't know how far we weren't in 30 minutes. I don't know, I have a Timex watch, but we didn't know how far we did have like routes that we would do in high school, like this is the four mile, this is this loop or whatever. We kind of knew how long it was, but we didn't know exactly how long I was to the T and we just go run how we felt. And then, like thinking back to those days, even in call early in college before we really had Garmin, we yeah, same thing. We had like certain routes that were a certain distance, and we would just run. And I never always, in fact, many times I didn't know what my pace was. I had no idea. I really had absolutely no idea. Like, that's I would just run. And I kind of like missed that, you know? And I don't know, I guess the coach, I can't, I don't know how my college coach was. I mean, it was mile, there was like a discussions of mileage, but it didn't anyone really know exactly how many miles they were running because like we had the routes, but most of the time, none of us I think had Garmin's. I don't that was early to that was like 2001 to 2006. I don't even know at the the first one I had was like a giant thing on my wrist that was like a huge and you had to like plug it into your computer. So I'm like, what yeah, I think this obsession is really very recent, like more obsessed, like and people are so like obsessed about their watch. And what if we just yeah, if we let go of mileage and just sit at minutes, maybe you could just wear like an old Time X watch and run for an hour and just run because you actually like to run. Why do we do we have to know? Yeah, I agree with you. I think it's um it sometimes takes the joy out of running. And I do think, you know, to time it to have to put it on people who are like constantly posting on Strava everything they do and like having to have it be something phenomenal or something like, you know, like what pressure is that? Like, is this are you really having are you really enjoying the sport? Like, I don't know, maybe that is the jo enjoyment for them. That's one of the biggest um reasons why I struggle so hard with like I wanted to do more of the sharing of my experience with putting stuff on YouTube and videos, but I when I go for a run, I just want to run. I don't want to worry about whether some sort of somebody's taking a video of me running and if I'm gonna post it somewhere. Like, I guess I'm old school like that. Like I am because I grew up in that era where we just went and ran to run and nobody knew what, like I didn't have anywhere to post it. I would just go for a run in high school. Nobody other than me and maybe my teammates knew that I went for a run that day. And now I post it on Strava, and everyone I follow follows me on Strava knows I went for a run. So I'm like, I don't know, like, but I don't care because I'm more of that old school. Like, I just do it because I love running. Um, and so I think part of me worries that if I share too much and all of a sudden it's like I'm videoing myself and I'm posting things, and and now there's like this pressure and there's people.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:12

You're worried about feeding feeding the machine.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:15

Feeding the machine, yeah. I just I just want to run because I do genuinely love to run. And what if it that takes it away from me? What if I then it's like now I feel, especially if I were to become more, you know, if it were to actually make traction for which would be exciting, but at the same time, now I feel more stressed to have to like post more of that. And all of a sudden, maybe the running isn't so joyous anymore. I'm not doing any of this to make money. And I don't necessarily know it's like any passion once you start to do something, and now that's some route to make money. Like personally, like I like coaching because I'm I I and yes, that's like a form of income, but that's different because you're doing it. I I genuinely want to help people, but to post like my running and somehow try be like a run influencer or something, I just think it just takes all the joy out of it, you know, for me, you know, personally. So that's a different topic. It's like off topic. But going back to that, like maybe like having why can't we go back to just thinking of it in minutes and just going out there and running and not being so tied to what pace exactly, and just kind of like, okay, it's 60 minutes, I'm gonna go how I feel, and RPE instead of so much focus on pace. And I think people would get more joy and maybe actually still make it to the finish line and do pretty good, right? Like there's does that like I think people would maybe even do better because you maybe want to be so overtrained, right? You want to be so overtrained, which I think so many people are, and I'd be I kind of run into that myself a little bit, which makes me I've been thinking about how I after this marathon, if I do another one or do how I'm going to do it just different and how I can maybe do it in a way that is less mileage and maybe still um yeah, I mean, maybe it would be minutes-based, and maybe it would be more uh certain elements that I would add in that would be a little bit non-traditional to see if I could get there and maybe taking all the mileage piece out and seeing what could happen because it might be really interesting. But yeah, you might have to work with me on that. Like reminds me, don't care about the mileage.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:34

I I and uh I wanted to uh the last kind of like pro that I think for the that was like a log off topic thing, so I've we're gonna pick some of that out. Um is uh the way that I think of stress um is uh there's there's a bucket. And we've talked about this before the whole the the bucket, and we've actually alluded to the the the I think it was did we talk about the bucket with stress and when it was like to poke holes in it and onto it?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:04

Yeah, like when you load, you have all the stress.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:06

Yeah, so that's the way that I that I do think about uh training is there's a bucket of stress that we have. And if I if I'm going if I'm working with a triathlete, there's no swim stress, there's no run stress, there's no bike stress, strength stress. It's just stress. Now, doesn't mean that every mile you you cycle is going to be equivalent to the stress is going to be equal to every mile that you run. I'm not saying that all stress is equivalent. What I'm saying is that the body doesn't differentiate between the source of stress. Likewise, if you're the same goes for just everyday work life, uh work-life balance, that type of stress goes into the bucket as well. So since I think of stress that way, that's that is the one thing that I want to manage. And doing training plans in minutes allows me to do that better than doing something in a distance-based uh because let's say that I give an athlete a a let's say a a three-hour ride. And because that's that's what my rides have been lately for for my training plan. I can get upwards of like around the half half Iron Man distance ride. So I'm right around like 56 to 58 miles on the bike. Now that that same that type of stress is going to be very different than if I went out and said, okay, now we're gonna do a three-hour run, is going to be so much more demanding on the body. So if I say, well, now I'm not going to give you uh mileage, I just want to say, okay, now that we cycled three hours yesterday, I want to manage the stress that you still have because there's no way that you've shed a significant amount of that. It doesn't matter what you do. You're still going into the next day a little bit depleted, a little bit sore. There's still going to be damage to the muscles, and it's still an inflammatory response that is still going on. So I want to manage the quality of that run given all those, that criteria that I have to keep in mind. And uh doing things in minutes allows me to do, I think, a better job of managing that, especially if I'm if I'm coaching athletes of various skills. Um, it doesn't, I'm not saying that I just, you know, take one training plan and I just copy and paste it into some other athlete because it's all going to be relative, because there's more to it than just prescribing minutes. I have to look, I have to worry about the recovery. Is that is that athlete able to manage those types of minutes? Can they be under stress for that long, regardless of what the distance is or what the minutes are? I I want to be able to manage their ability to not just accomplish the workout, but to recover from it and be able to do what it is that we need to do the next day. And so just because I do training plans in minutes and it's all going to be relative, doesn't mean that I would give those same athletes all the same minutes. So I I wanted to make sure that that's that that's clear. However, the stress is not the same. So, you know, making that slower runner or the that more experienced runner run for 60 minutes may have still pushed them over the edge, yeah, even though I gave them what would be equivalent to an eight and a half mile run with a more experienced runner. Is that can that runner handle 60 minutes? I don't know. Uh even though that's that's the level of adaptation.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:14

Yeah, the less experienced one may only be able to handle 45 or 50, even. Like you know what I mean? Yeah. So I get yeah, I think that you that's where the the the adjustments you're making as a coach would be um important, obviously, because you're kind of looking at each individual person. So you're not just like cookie cutter plan, like, oh, this is the same. Yeah, I get what you're saying. I think the other thing with mileage is the only time, even if I were working in minutes, like the only time there might be certain instances where I might prescribe like a mileage-based workout or something would be maybe if it were like a race simulation or something like, I don't know, like I wanted them to do like a time trial or you know, which wouldn't you wouldn't do for like a marathon, but maybe it would be like I want you to do two mile time trial. I guess you could do that in minutes too, but um, just to kind of see where they're at and cap it, you know, at two mile. Like there might be certain instances where even with a time-based, I might do a certain mileage goal in that, but it wouldn't necessarily be the entire workout. I could see that, you know, if you're doing like a simulation of some sort or you're doing, I want you to sort of do a mile or two mile time trial kind of thing to see where you're at, you know, in your fitness. But yeah, I'm trying to think of exceptions of where maybe within a minute space um workout, I would do mileage, just adjust it, you know, or have like a mileage a day where it was a little more focused. Because I do think there are probably instances even within I mean, I almost wonder if yeah, maybe sometimes there's like a cr a bit of work certain workouts where it would be there would be some sort of mileage focus, you even if you're focusing mostly on minutes. Like I don't I don't know if it has to be exclusively one or the other, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:06

I think the only reason that I would yeah, I've done the same thing where I've given an athlete, even though my training plans are in minutes, I've given them a 5K time trial. In which case, you know, hey, this is what we're looking for. We're not looking for generating fitness to run a 5K. I'm looking to set benchmarks in order to set zones. So there's a very different, there's a purpose and a very specific reason for why I would give it to you in distance versus just, oh, this is just uh a normal run-of-the-wheel workout. And, you know, so that that would be the only reason that I would do something. And I've done that before where I've given them, yeah, hey, we're doing a 5k time trial because, you know, I want to set, I want to set some kind of pace expectations, not necessarily to have uh presented to the athlete to try and hit those pace targets, but just so that I have an understanding on where they are. Right, where they're fit and if I if I see, if I tell them, hey, I want you running a zone two run, but I see a particular pace, and then I can look back, it's like, okay, where where would this pace fall within like the zones that we have? And it winds up being like this is zone three or zone four, then I have to go back, it's like, look, what what happened this day? You ran it a lot faster than what I would expect you to run it. Uh, and based on the zones that we have, this is a little bit more of an overreach. What's what was going on? Were you just feeling great, or were you time crunched and you just needed to get through the workout, so you ran it harder? Um, so those those are all the different questions that I would have to have. Um, but I I do say like one of the pitfalls on doing uh a minutes-based training plan is this inability to I don't want to say inability, because that's uh that's a bad word. Um it's harder to estimate race specific volume uh when you're doing it that way. Um I but I I do it for myself because I know you know where it is that I think that I could hit. So I say, well, you know, if I'm training for a half Iron Man, uh I know that I can do the bike in about three hours. So I know that I want my my peak bike volume to be anywhere between four to four and a half, and then I can just kind of work my way back. I've we've talked about this on on previous episodes as well. But if I'm working with somebody new or they're doing a race that they've never done before, that is where the challenge lies. Right. It's okay, you know, we then have to base our training plan based on the goals and expectations that they have for themselves. If they come in and they just say, you know, I want to do this in X number of minutes, and that's what I want my race time to be, then I can kind of set the training plan that way. But without some kind of guidance like that, it has to be a little bit more uh free flow, is is the way that I would describe it. It's like I I may give them a volume and I may not necessarily map out the whole training plan. Because a lot of times what I'll do is I'll set the the skeleton of the training plan so I've got I know what the progression is going to be and how we're going to grow each week's volume ahead of time before before I give it to them. But if I'm working with somebody new or we're doing a new race, I may not be able to have that uh completed before training starts. And so I may have to grow their progression almost week by week and be more reactionary than then proactive when it comes to growing their training plan. So that is a pitfall that, you know, I'm doing my first half marathon and I'm gonna do my training plan in minutes. Well, you really don't have any experience on what you think that you could do it in unless you go to some of these online calculators and you feed it in, you know, hey, this is my my 10K time. Can you predict what my half marathon time would be? The accuracy of those calculators are what they are. So, you know, you know, buyer beware there.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:04

So I mean, I think if you're doing that, maybe doing like a 5k or 10k just to kind of see where your paces are for that. And then yeah, you are maybe looking at some of those calculators and then looking at what your pace is because I do think like at some point you do have to kind of even if you're doing it minutes, like you still have to kind of look at pace a little bit to kind of see where someone's at if they're like like I want to run an eight minute, you know, half marathon, you know, eight minute per mile half marathon, but they struggle to run an eight minute per mile, you know, 10k and they're s you're their pace, you know, you're like, well, I gotta I mean that's not maybe gonna be so you I think as a kind of looking at all of that, even in mileage base, but it's But I I in that kind of scenario, what I would do is I'm not giving I'm not gonna give them uh training sessions with doing that kind of pace.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:56

What I may do is say, okay, these these are the runs that I want you to do, and I want you to do them in this rate of perceived exertion and and effort level, and then I use the output to determine what their pace should be realistically, and say, you know, if they come to me and they're just like, I want to run this, you know, in a 10-minute mile, but I'm seeing from their from their rate, from their runs that even like the really, really good runs, that they're not they're not in the neighborhood, they're not in the ballpark. And so it's my job as the coach to say, look, I know that you have this this expectation or this goal in mind, but given what I'm seeing right now, going that go going for that kind of goal is going to be a bit of an overreach for where you are right now. Um so usually when it comes to something like that, and they have a performance goal, I usually encourage that with experienced athletes. You know, somebody who's who's done that kind of race before or they've been doing this for a while. Usually with new runners or new athletes, I t I try my best to kind of discourage performance-related goals.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:01

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:02

Uh, and then just do like softer goals. It's like, okay, well, you know, uh, we don't have a pace goal, but maybe the goal is to run the whole thing without without walking or to uh use a run-walk protocol, but stick with it throughout the whole race, you know, which can be a little bit challenging sometimes as you get deeper into the race and the fatigue starts to accumulate, and they start to say, well, you know, I could hold this seven to one walk ratio at the beginning of the race, but can I hold it at the back half, which really matters more? And now that seven to two, now that seven to one turns into a six to two, five to three. And so that may be the goal, you know, something like that. Rather than having a, you know, I want to finish in this time, I want to make sure that they finish before the cutoff. But, you know, that's that's how I would approach their training plan. Is I think I'm more reactionary than than proactive, especially working with with new athletes and saying, okay, you know, I'm not too concerned about you hitting these miles because, you know, we'll have to make that evaluation, you know, as we get closer. I'm I want to train you where you are, not where it is that you want to be or where you think that you should be. And I think sometimes mileage-based training plans really encourage that kind of behavior. Okay, are are you at a place where you can handle, you know, 20 miles a week? I don't know. But let's start training. And if I give you a minutes based, then we'll see where that mileage falls. It's like, okay, this is where we're at. We're not at a 20-mile week, we're at a 15 mile week. So, you know, then you can say, okay, well, now if you want, we can and you really want a training plan in mile in miles, then we can make that switch and say, okay, now that I have some kind of evidence on where it is that you are and what you can handle, um, let's let's go with that. But to we have to break this mentality of like, oh, we're doing increments of you know, miles. So if I'm working with a runner, we're not going to increase from like eight to nine miles or eight to ten miles. I mean, I may go from, okay, this run last week was eight miles. This week, it's eight and a half or eight point two five miles. This whole idea is like we got to go in these clean increments, which a lot of training plans do uh that are online, I think really pushes the athletes beyond where they are and encourages more rapid growth than what they can reasonably recover from. So that's why I like minutes. Because it kind of breaks it breaks that mindset where you know I'm just looking for just to run this number of of hours or whatever. And the miles are what they are, and then we can evaluate where they're at.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:44

Yeah, I think that I think, like I said, I do think there can be some freedom because I do think sometimes when it's mileage based, yeah, people are are very obsessive about it, and um, sometimes they'll go faster than they. Need they should or they'll push harder than they should because they need to hit that mileage. Whereas if it's right minutes based and you're like, Oh, you know, I want this to be easy, they're just focusing on the minute.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:12

Because you got the time crunch person who's who maybe, you know, had had the plans to go out and run earlier, now didn't, and they're not willing to either cut the miles down based on the time that they have available to them. So they go out and they run the r they do the run harder than what is prescribed, and now that's going to affect subsequent workouts. And I'm not getting that adaptation and recovery that I really want from them or the accumulation of fatigue because they're they're poor at time management.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:41

Right. Yeah. I get that. Yeah. I think, yeah, I think we've, I don't know. I think we've covered the this pretty well. I don't have anything really to add. I think like you said, it's like no, we're not it's not like we came to some sort of necessarily like a conclusion of like one being better than the other. I think just kind of the the reasoning for both. Although, like I said, I would encourage people to consider a minutes-based approach, if especially if they feel as though they are rushing workout, trying to run you know, they're not taking their easy days easy, or for whatever reason to hit a certain mileage because they're time crunched, or if they're so obsessive about mileage that they're injuring themselves because they can't be flexible with spits and they're not they're not taking into account the load on their body because they're it's hot that week. If they can if somebody can let go of that might be quite freeing. And they would probably have better results because they're actually um like considering the load a little bit more than the mileage. And so I do think for many runners, maybe moving that direction and going away from mileage um might be actually quite beneficial to you know, to do. So I guess the my the my conclusion I have is just like, but neither one is maybe a although I I think there's a lot of um argument for minutes-based approach, but there's a way to kind of make it work. Maybe there's something in the middle where you were but looking at both and there's a consideration there, but um, we're not really trying to argue for one over the other, but I do think for certain types of runners, I do encourage a consideration and moving towards more minutes-based.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:26

Yeah, I think that's the beauty of this conversation is that I didn't want to go into it with uh a concluding statement on yes, we have now proven that minutes-based training plans are superior to miles-based. I think we've made a case for using both, um, whether you have some kind of hybrid approach or evaluating which method is appropriate given where the athlete is in the in their journey and you know what their goals are. Um so I I think that this has been a pretty well-rounded conversation. So if you if you dialed in today and you wanted to find out which one was better, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but we've made we've made a case. Yeah, we've we've made the case for using one over the other. Yeah. And I hope that you've been able to take this information and evaluate how you want to think of of your training, and then pick the method that works best for you. I think that's the key point that we really wanted to drive home. Uh it's not which method is superior, it's which one's superior for your particular needs and where you are. So uh I I've really enjoyed this conversation. I've been going through the math in my head, and I think this is going to be episode 99. Okay. So when it when it publishes. I was thinking it might be less. We're gonna be one episode away from our hundredth episode, and that that's that's really awesome. I want to thank you guys for for tuning in today. We really appreciate the support that you continue to show the podcast. Uh, if this episode has been helpful to you, or if you know somebody else who uh maybe helped by this conversation that we've had, we hope that you will consider leaving a review and a comment or share share the episode with whoever you think it would benefit from. Those are greatly appreciated. Uh, again, like we say every time we don't monetize this podcast, so we don't have ads and sponsors, and we're not trying to sell you hemp mattresses and supplements. So any kind of a review and comment and sharing that that you do uh is a great way to show support for the podcast because it really does increase the exposure. This is the way that iTunes and and Spotify and they all work. Um, as you get more and more people that are tuning in, it really starts to increase the exposure. So we hope that you will consider uh doing that. Reviews are really, really quick. It doesn't take much to click on whatever number of stars you think it's worth and put a little bit of context to it. Say great episode, bad episode, whatever it is that you want to say, uh, those are greatly appreciated. So uh we thank you for that. We also have the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast Group. It's a closed group on Facebook that we started from from episode one, effectively, and we've been trying to grow out this community in order to uh bring everyone together. So people who like the podcast and want to talk about more, they want to uh share experiences with other listeners, reach out directly to us. This is a great place for you to do that. Uh we do push out a little bit of additional content in this area. So if you're looking for maybe some short reels or some blog posts that we've written, this is a great place to go for that for that content. So all you have to do is you just answer one simple question, then you agree to the group rules and it lets you right on in and uh let's grow out this community together. So we thank you guys. Uh we are active coaches. So if you are looking for a coach and not quite sure how to do your training plan, whether you should do miles or minutes, or if you're just interested in trying to maybe try something new, uh you're going for a new distance or you're going for a new goal and you don't necessarily know how to approach it, what's best for you, uh, or you're just tired of trying to come up with your own workouts and what you know, interval, what's the best interval uh durations for me? So if you're uh wanting to try something a little different, we hope that you will consider one of us as your coach. You can go to fuel the number two run.com for Coach Katie. She is a registered sports dietitian, so she does diet dietetics for all sports, so she's sports certified. She also does uh run plans. Uh so she is a run coach. Uh I'm at tabula rasso racing.com. There's tons of content that are on both of our websites. I do single sport and multi-sport training plans. Sorry, no dietetics on my side, but um you we have a network. So if you come to me and you want dietetics, you'll go right on over to Katie and we'll bring her right on in to the network. We can both coach you um that way. Absolutely. Yeah. But uh if if you're interested and you just want to have a conversation, feel free to reach out to us. Uh you can also reach out to us through the podcast website, uh, which is going to be mentioned in the credits for this episode. Um, but we'd love to talk to you. Uh I also want to push out the the YouTube channel. So if you've been listening to this, but you kind of want to you want to switch over to YouTube and you can actually watch the episode of us sitting down here talking. I don't know. Uh that is also available to you. We do push out shorts and reels and things uh out there, but the full episode are are out there on the channel, and you can leave reviews and comments there as well. So give that a listen to. I can't think of anything else, but I really want to thank you guys for joining us and for the support that you continue to show. And I've been your host, Coach Justin, along with Coach Katie, and this has been episode 99 of the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast, and we'll see you all again next time. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:56

Bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:06

That wraps up today's episode of the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast. Endurance sports have a way of teaching us patience, humility, and resilience. Lessons that carry far beyond the workout. Progress in endurance sports doesn't come from shortcuts. It comes from consistency, discipline, and doing the work when it's not glamorous. Wherever you are on your endurance journey, keep trusting the process and honoring the work you put in each day. If today's episode resonated, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone to help on their endurance journey. Don't forget to join the conversation on our social sites to help build and foster a community where we all learn and support one another. We'll be back with more stories and insights from Coach Justin and Katie. Until then, visit the podcast website at the endurance athlete journey.buzzsprout.com for more episodes from the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast. Have questions or comments about the podcast? Feel free to send us an email at the endurance athlete journey at gmail.com. For all things coaching, visit Coach Katie at fuel the number two run.com and Coach Justin at taboularasta racing.com. Again, thank you for listening to the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast, and remember to find joy in the journey.