SHOULD WE ALWAYS SAY THE UNSAID?

Sarah + Vanessa begin to answer the question, "Should you always Say the Unsaid?"  Spoiler alert: the answer is no. 

Transcript

0:05

Saying the unsaid. A conversation between a psychologist and a spiritual director who have been friends for over 30 years about process groups, the anticipated discomfort and the surprise intimacy. The inevitability of replication and the possibilities of doing something new. We're guaranteed to get some stuff right and some stuff wrong, but we're doing it anyway. Thanks for listening..

Vanessa: 0:41

We didn't talk about how we want to start this. So we'll just start.. When we sent out material about what we're doing, we said, come say the unsaid, this group will help you do it. A friend of mine wrote back and said, do you have a group for unsaying the said? And I just loved it right away and realized, Oh, right. Not everybody is like me. Who's needs to find their voice vocalize more and not be so afraid of conflict. There's a whole population of people out there who say the unsaid and then get burned for it. So, we wanted to talk about that a little bit. Is that the invitation to say the unsaid all the time?

Sarah: 1:26

And the answer is absolutely not, or no. However you phrase the question. I also have wishes that I could. Unsaid, the said, or untyped, the typed. So, as someone who simultaneously has needed to learn how to own my voice and say what I mean, and is continually learning that, I have plenty of tapes I would like to retract in the universe. But When we have been advertising, or I don't know if that's an exaggerated term, but trying to get our tiny group of friends and family to refer people to us one of the questions is, I don't think this, well this isn't a question, one of the statements is, I don't think that's a good idea, and don't you think there's times when you shouldn't say everything that's on your mind, and Most of the time,

Vanessa: 2:24

we should not say what's on our mind. Now that I'm thinking about it, I think what I could buy into all the time is know the unsaid. That's why I'm in these groups is because I want to know what I'm thinking and feeling. I don't always want to say it, but to help me know I am in these groups so that I can figure out what I'm thinking and feeling. I can practice saying it, see if it's accurate, if it's true, or I can elaborate or change my mind or take it back or whatever, but I need an experimental field so that I can know the unsaid. Yes. And then decide what to do with it in the rest of life.

Sarah: 3:09

That is so true. That's been a surprising part. It's not as though everyone has all this stuff that's just right on the surface that they're consciously biting their tongue about. Sometimes the thought isn't even formed. That's how far away it is. It's not even like on the tip of the tongue. It hasn't been developed even internally. Yeah. So the longer title could be something like. Learn what you think maybe say it

Vanessa: 3:35

Yeah, I've been interested in honesty for a long time as I mean I've gone so far as To give up lying for Lent two times at least and what was most interesting about those experiments was just becoming aware of when I am tempted to lie in what situations and why. And there was definitely a theme. So I, still lied during Lent, but at least I became more aware of when I was lying and why. So I could figure out what's going on there.

Sarah: 4:09

So yeah, I agree that starting these groups, there's an increased awareness of what I'm not saying, whereas in previous groups that I existed in, I got so habituated to just zoning out or just nodding and not thinking about it or maybe hiding my own thoughts by the zone out. And that was true. Even in like board meetings. I just would wait for it to be over first. So it's not even like I'm actively engaged with myself, let alone verbalizing it. So the invitation to think about what is going on with you, how are you reacting? What's happening does feel like that's the first muscle to develop. The capacity to say it is the second, especially when. there's a concern that this isn't gonna go over. So, yeah. Most of our editing or self-censoring is a prediction of how this is going to go. And like a predetermination. And then I don't want that predicted outcome to happen.

Vanessa: 5:18

Yeah, I have a friend who uses the word managing sometimes she'll call and be like, Okay, so I'm having a little birthday thing. I wasn't going to invite you because I'm seeing you the day before. But then I thought what if you hear about it, you might be offended. So then I realized I'm managing. How you're going to feel about this, your expectations about this. So instead of doing that, I'm just calling you to tell you all that. I love that kind of thing. A lot of work to predict what I'm going to feel when I hear about the birthday thing. When we're actually doing something the night before and I can't even do the other thing. And so I'd rather us just talk about it. So that is a great example to me of what I'd hope this group helps me do is cut through. some of that censoring and managing and just know what's going on for me, offer it to a friend, and then we see what happens from there.

Sarah: 6:19

If I think that the possibility of bypassing a lot of predictions or assumptions. This happens when people are planning things. There's like multiple occasions adjacent to me where families are trying to plan a family vacation and no one is saying what they specifically want, but everyone's imagining what everyone else wants and predicting and there's all of this like wondering, as opposed to this would be my first choice. What's your first choice? My worry is that my first choice is going to block your first choice, but I'm going to say both parts rather than try to leapfrog over the whole thing and make a prediction that may or may not be accurate, yes, sometimes it's out of a desire for generosity or to appease people or to make people comfortable. It's out of that space that's intended to be loved. That ends up being complicated. Even through good intentions. Rather than saying it.

Vanessa: 7:19

Okay. I read a book about honesty by Sam Harris, or maybe it was called lying and it was really short. And I just remember two things from the book. One is that his argument was there's no situation in which. You should lie, not about Santa Claus, not about hiding Jews during the Nazi invasion, not about whether your partner looks fat in this dress or not. Like he just thinks across the board, there's never a reason to lie. And there's always more to be gained by telling the truth. And how you tell that truth is nuanced. But one thing he said about honesty is that it's an engine of simplicity. I remember him saying that and being like, Oh my gosh, My inner life and my outer life is so complex. Like my main emotion in life is overwhelmed because I do not have an engine of simplicity in the way I operate. So that was very appealing to me to think of honesty as an engine of simplicity. And the other thing you said is that lying is a way to recoil from relationship. So basically you're blocking intimacy. By not telling the truth. And that is so true for me about groups. It's one of the concerns friends have had about leading these groups is it just sounds like you're asking people to be mean and Vanessa, that's so not like you. And that's not what the world needs. Why would you set up a space for cruelty? And it's hard to hear because I know what it sounds like, and yet I'm like, I don't know how to tell you that being in these groups are the least mean spaces I've been in. Not because difficult things aren't said to me, but because they're said to me. And I can survive it and respond to it and do something new with it with that person. In almost all cases, The quote unquote conflicts I've had as a group member have led to feeling closer to the person not farther and people's assumption is like why would you do that? You would just put walls between people when what we need are bridges It's hard for me to describe like I don't know how but these are bridges saying the unsaid is a bridge.

Sarah: 9:30

I totally agree With the book that you mentioned the two part the first is it's never okay to lie I am not going to endorse that. I have to think about it more, but my first instinct is that is not true. But the second part is that lying blocks intimacy that feels. Very true. Yeah. And the telling the truth builds intimacy and that feels very true. So the idea of, Oh no, truth is going to harm and create distance. That's what I believe. That's why I learned how to shut the fuck up. I thought that was true, but I think paradoxically. The opposite is true. And the, so the muscle of learning how to speak candidly is the muscle of intimacy. That feels very true and the muscle of politeness is not the muscle of intimacy. So I also think of lying as blocking intimacy. I also think of it as boring. And when I picture myself going to certain places where I know the exact prescribed vibe, conversational topics that you're supposed to continually remain upbeat and Enthusiastic about the cause or whatever, and I know like bullshitting through my teeth. I don't feel connected and I'm usually bored. And I can tell when, if I leave a gathering and now I want to give my real impression of that to someone that there's like a big disconnect between the way I was behaving and then the kind of what's going on in my thought bubble. During the time when the more that splits, the more I'm not present to the room. In contrast, like with you where I feel like my thought bubble equals what I'm saying. That feels so fun and funny and connecting and engaged, and that feels like the groups are like a place to, to practice that. And it does feel like it's the antithesis of boredom in a way. And also an example of how to paradoxically connect through actually saying what you think,

Vanessa: 12:07

Sarah. I just resonate with that so much because. It's very unlike me to do something this consistent as want to be in a process group because I do a lot of things. I feel busy all the time. I'd rather be alone, I think than be with more people. So why do I keep coming back and why do I look forward to this? Why do I have so much energy? Before and after a meeting and it's because it's not boring and what it reminds me of is me and you going to an event or a party where we are following the social rules and then afterwards Loving to debrief it I used to love those debriefs that came after the Bachelorette the panda lady would do them so you like watch the show and then she Debriefs what's happening and what she was noticing and thinking and feeling. And I've heard people say that in friend groups Oh my God, I love to debrief. And you get to let your hair down, symbolically speak and say what was it actually like for you? Another way we could say it is they're debrief groups about what just happened ten seconds ago. And that's why it's so fun.

Sarah: 13:18

A hundred percent.

Vanessa: 13:19

Okay, we got a little bit into lying and honesty. I equate Saying the unsaid with honesty, but that's not all saying the unsaid is about, it's not just about telling the truth or not. Another aspect of should you always say the unsaid is no. I also believe that there's a lot of things that are better to be kept to myself. And it's very empowering to realize I have a choice about what I want to say out loud and what I don't want to say, or don't need to say out loud. What I'm saying is, I don't even think it's like ideal to most of the time say the unsaid. But to have a sense of agency about what do I want this person to know or not know. It feels really empowering for me to be like I don't need to tell them that. Because it's easy for me to be black or white okay, I should probably confess everything if I'm gonna do this different way. And the truth is, that's not where being in these process groups have gotten me. I have more discretion about what I do want to say out loud and what I don't. Does that make sense? It does make sense. And that's

Sarah: 14:31

why I think that the idea that the purpose is to build your capacity for intimacy. On one hand, I don't need intimacy with 95 percent of the people in my life that I interact with. That might not be the percentage might not be right, but I'm just saying when I go to the grocery store I don't need to be intimate with the cashier when I Go to the gym. I don't need to be intimate with the Instructor I think there's a lot of ways where we develop social behavior that is just like the stop sign, the turn right, that helps traffic flow. Yeah. If you're trying to be close to someone, then this is going to help you be close to people. But that's a select. group. Even with the people that you want to be close to, you still can make decisions. So I was thinking about the metaphor. I do think to me, it feels like learning how to say what's immediately on your mind. So I liked the muscle metaphor. I was thinking about when people work out and they do weight training and they learn how to lift heavier and heavier weights, they don't lift heavier and heavier weights so that they can lift every heavy thing that they come across in their life. That would be so, so bizarre and weird. Like you just walk down the street and pick up every trash can to show that you can do it. Or, lift up a small car or something, you don't go around flexing just because you are super strong. I think with increasing your capacity to know what you think, you could say it out loud if you want to, you make decisions about when am I going to flex this muscle. And it's not just a barrage of thought that I have. I blasted everybody.

Vanessa: 16:19

Anything else that we associate with this question should we always say the unsaid? Are we supposed to do this in all of life or the rest of life? What we do in process groups?

Sarah: 16:32

I think that families are a confusing one at times where I think families are a place that some people want. Connection and intimacy and then also they're really loaded territories where a lot of things have a lot of pain points and that I think that there can be a level of A choice to not enter certain terrains that could be an act of trying to keep things structurally intact and I think that is an okay decision to make at times. So also, it seems like it's having more intentional decisions about what you're doing rather than just knee jerk reactions to zipping it up or just head nodding and saying, thanks so much to what you hate or saying the opposite

Vanessa: 17:14

some of the times I regret saying the unsaid, I don't have many in my life cause I err so much on the other side. But the times I can think of that I regret is realizing in retrospect, it was more about my own anxiety or my own conscience, my own guilt, my own fear. And so it's this blurting out thinking coming clean will somehow magically clean up the space. And then realizing that was. It's way more for me than for the other person. There's this quote. I don't know who it's attributed to. I feel like it's very common in a way, so it says, if it's truth, truthful and not helpful, don't say it. If it's not truthful, but helpful, don't say it. If it is truthful and helpful. Then wait for the right time. I don't love it now because it places too much emphasis on being the perfect decision maker about what you're going to say. But what's surprising to me about it is how there's a context and a timeliness. and a consideration for when you do say the unsaid. Like you expect it to say, okay, if it's truthful, not helpful, don't say it. Of course, if it's not truthful, but helpful, yeah, don't lie. If it's truthful and helpful, you think it's going to say, then say it. And instead it says, Then wait for the right time.

Sarah: 18:40

The thing I don't like about it is it presumes that the person can make an accurate prediction of what is helpful. Good point. I think if the intent is to harm, obviously don't do it. If you know it's truthful, but you're intending to harm someone like, maybe don't do that, but we don't know. And I feel I would put too many things in the category of that's not helpful. It kind of feel like I pat myself on the back for following rule number. Free or whatever of that, when it's like, Oh, yes, you were worried that it was going to make an impact in this particular way. And you just don't know. I've been surprised by saying something truthful that I predict is going to go badly. And it turns out it builds closeness. That's why I'm like, you don't know sometimes.

Vanessa: 19:34

Yeah, and in fact, we're wrong a lot of the times. A lot of time.

Sarah: 19:38

So yeah, so I'm in a stage of my life where I'm being surprised by the idea that saying something that feels like it'll disrupt things. Actually builds closeness, so I need to do that more often if I want to be close with people rather than I know I can't say that. I know I can't say that. I also think not saying things that has its own form of harm. You're right. And part of the harm is disconnection. Like it's a passive harm. I was guilty of that a lot in my marriage by not saying what was going on as a way to, I don't want to say anything that's that would be harmful, but it was its own type of harm by not. saying what's going on with me. I'm acting it out in other ways by being distanced or something.

Vanessa: 20:26

That's such a good point that just because we don't say something doesn't mean it's not being communicated. It likely is being communicated powerfully to the other person. They might feel crazy because you're not saying it, but they're feeling it. And our bodies keep the score or whatever. Our bodies will tell the truth whether we admit it to ourselves and vocalize it or not. So there's a huge risk for not saying the unsaid.

Sarah: 20:56

We'll say it anyway. Do you want to say it by avoiding the person? Do you want to say it by being passive aggressive? Do you want to say it by getting sick? Do you want to, or do you want to?

Vanessa: 21:06

Okay. Anything else on this question or topic? are process groups for people who, on the surface, don't look like they have any troubles? Saying the unsaid.

Sarah: 21:17

Yes. Well, I feel like that is a different topic. Okay. It's true. Yeah. So today's topic is should you do it all the time and considerations around that. A different topic is, are people who are really good at direct communication or verbalizing everything, could process groups be useful for them?

Vanessa: 21:35

Love it. We'll do that another time. Okay. I guess that's all for now.