WHY YOU SHOULDN'T LISTEN OR JOIN A PROCESS GROUP

In their first episode, Sarah + Vanessa talk about why podcasts and process groups are the worst. 

Transcript

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Saying the unsaid. A conversation between a psychologist and a spiritual director who have been friends for over 30 years about process groups. The anticipated discomfort and the surprise intimacy. The inevitability of replication and the possibilities of doing something new. We're guaranteed to get some stuff right and some stuff wrong, but we're doing it anyway. Thanks for listening, sarah. Maybe we'll cut this out because it's annoying, but I did realize that today's the 15th of the month, which means. We decided we were best friends on October 15th, 1995. I think we should take this out. Okay. Okay. Good to know. One of my reasons why not to listen to this podcast is how annoying it is. To friends say, well go to friends. It's also the seven months of us having our very, very first process group that we led together. Yeah, that was on the 15th. Yes. October 15th. Yes. Our process group babies, we have three of them now are seven months old. I mean, some of them are younger than that. So that's the second reason why people shouldn't listen to this podcast because no one needs someone who's seven months into something speaking. As any sort of expert about it. Okay. That is very annoying. Like I was thinking like if someone started taking a pottery class and then seven months later they thought, you know, I think I should do a podcast about this. And people were doing pottery for like centuries and just like, we don't need your. Baby Hot take. Okay, Sarah, good point. We are, we're like a meme right now and we're even like a delayed meme like it was like three years ago that people were joking about, like, oh, you're gonna start a podcast about that. We're like so far behind the curve and we're so cliche. Being a delayed cliche is worse than being an on-time cliche. It's like, if we started, what? What would be delayed right now? It would be like if we were starting a MySpace account right now and just wanting to really push it through. So I just wanna acknowledge that we have no business talking about process groups and that this is a huge cliche. That was my main reason why people shouldn't listen to this, is because. It's so narcissistic. I don't even know like the psychological definition of that word, but for two people to giggle at each other and talk to each other because they love each other and then be like, we should record. This is so annoying. It's like when you're a kid and you, you film a video and then you watch it together and you're like dying laughing and the other people in the room are like. This is not funny. Or when you show your pictures of your pet or your videos of your kids, no one wants to it. We all pretend like, oh, they're so cute. What's its name? Yes, but it's not the same. So we we're not good judges of what's good because we'll listen to this and be like, that was so fun. Other people will not. Coincidentally, my dad has been recently changing our. VHS home videos into digital. Mm-hmm. And so he'll send them out. And so I'm just in real time seeing videos of when I was a kid. Hmm. And I am the cringes of the cringe. And one of the problems is that I'm the oldest of the cousins, so I'm the least cute uhhuh. So yes, I think that's why when I think about recording this, I can only tolerate it to myself when I think of an audience of one being like my brother, who I am pretty sure. Likes me and would watch the home video and be like, Sarah, you're the best. Yeah. You know? So when I think about you and me just having a conversation, pressing record, that sounds very fun. Sending it to my brother, I'm like, mm-hmm. I'm good. Knowing that we are actually going to send it out to friends means that I'm already defying my number one rule, which is no one wants to watch your home videos. Which reminds me of another thing, which is, I think I've been telling you this for. 20 years, but when I die, the first thing that I want to happen is, do you know what it is? Oh, I a hundred percent know I'm burning or getting rid of all of your diaries, writings, journals. I'm so happy you know this so well. Mm-hmm. Because it's, I haven't written it in my living will, but I mean it to be in my living will. Mm-hmm. That like the second someone gets a call that I'm dead. Vanessa on a plane to Philadelphia to the basement, find the bins, burn them. Mm-hmm. Burn every single place. Okay. We should clarify this because do you really want them gone? Gone, or could I take them? Then decide what to do with them. We should, I'm a little worried about you taking them and deciding, because you might read them and think, oh, this is kind of great, and it's not great. Okay. It is terrible. I think I just wanna go straight for the book. Okay. Because it might be like a photo where you're like, Sarah, I think you look good. And I think Vanessa, I look terrible. Okay. We're not putting that out there. Mm-hmm. So I have glanced at my journals. They're mainly prayer requests, other people's behas and I need them all burned, or they're just hyper spiritualizing my entire life. Yeah. Okay. So the reason why I bring that up is because the very act of having conversations that it's now gonna be in the universe. Mm-hmm. Is the opposite of writing a journal that I plan to be burned. Yeah. Because there's something like inherently dangerous about putting stuff out there that I seriously might regret. We, we will regret some stuff that we say you'll regret. Yes. So I put that in our little intro because I would like to preemptively say we will be getting stuff wrong so that when we do, I say. I had full disclosure, we had, we were in agreement about this. Mm-hmm. Possibility. Mm-hmm. Slash slash guarantee. I wish that all my journals had that at the beginning too. Mm-hmm. You know, yes, there will be stuff in here that we want to burn, but I'm gonna go with it anyway. You know, so I also, personality wise, really am like a hyper editor and like things that I put out into the world to be. I've like determined that this is exactly what I wanna say and I'll still regret it. Mm-hmm. But these conversations with you aren't even scripted. Yeah. So that puts me in a more vulnerable position'cause it increases my likelihood of regret. So it's kind of the worst of both worlds. Like A, it's a narcissistic endeavor. And B, I might sound dumb. If I was gonna do a narcissistic endeavor, I would at least like to make sure I sound brilliant and funny all the time. Yes. Another reason people shouldn't listen to this is because there's just too much information in the world. There's too many podcasts. I probably listen to stuff too much when I actually need more silence and space to integrate metabolize. Assimilate everything that I'm taking in. Like I don't really believe in putting out more information in the world to a certain extent because it's like population crisis. Yes. But with content, yes it is. And now we're just adding another like resource sucking, distracting, kind of a consumer good for people to just eat and not be changed. There's this famous saying I've heard attributed to. Different people. You don't think yourselves into new ways of living. You live yourselves into new ways of thinking. Podcasts are just kind of an illusion, a temptation, a trap. You're like, oh, if I listen to this, then I'll be different. Then I'll figure it out. Then my life will blah, blah, blah. And it's just an illusion. It's a trap most of the time, and here we are doing it. That's a great reason that I hadn't thought about, mainly because. My reason for not listening to this is I don't listen to podcasts. I know. Yeah. So you do. Yeah. Right? And you're like, well, we're already a plethora. There's an ocean's worth of podcasts. We really don't need two white women talking about. Yes. For me, we don't need it because I wouldn't even consume it myself. I'm just like not a podcast person. And it's not because I'm holy, I think it's because I'm unholy. I just haven't developed the spiritual practice of listening to podcasts. Mm-hmm. So that's one of my reasons not to listen to podcasts'cause I don't even listen to them. I love that one also, you were on a thread recently with a couple friends and you shared something and then one of the other guys was like. Hey, I heard you were released from jail to the other guy and you were like, oh my gosh, I can't believe this is happening. He was like arrested for, I don't know what it's called, civ, civic disobedience, civil dis civil disobedience. So doing a very important thing in the world while we're just recording podcasts, talking about our new fetish. That feels embarrassing to me. That is so funny. They might listen to this. Yeah. So the group, because you're friends with them, they might Well, I, yeah. So I send on a tiny group chat from all these truly amazing people, three of them. Mm-hmm. Hey guys, really exciting news. Vanessa and I are doing a grandiose self-referential project. Here's our cover art idea, and then someone says, Hey, I just heard that you got released from jail for civil disobedience, and I was like, whoops. Can I like scoop this back out to say. What they're doing. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So there could be a mismatch to what's going on in the universe or in people's real lived experiences, and then this random conversation. Yes. One more I thought of is something you said, which there's a podcast you know of that you kind of hate because the sound of the woman's voice and you hate how constantly praising. They are. And it reminded me of someone I listen to and every time they have a guest on, I mean, it's the biggest fan girl introduction possible, even though I like this host so much and they're so substantial. So there's something in podcasts that pulls for fakeness. Exaggeration. Yeah. That is majorly cringe to me. The exaggeratedly hyping up the other person. Yeah. It is my solemn intent to not hype you up, Vanessa. Okay. Sake of our two brothers that might be listening. Okay. How about why should people not go to process groups? Like why are process groups the worst? They're truly the worst. Coincidentally, we as a part of our training group for being process group leaders. Mm-hmm. Were recommended that just like someone who is practicing therapy should have their own therapist, someone who I guess is a spiritual director should also be in spiritual direction. A hundred percent. These are just like good practice. Someone who is leading a process group should also be in a process group. I agree with this, and we've done a number of really short term process group as members. Mm-hmm. Experiences that have been very valuable and have been why I wanna do this. In the first place. So I feel like I have that box checked, that we do do that periodically, but the suggestion to be an ongoing one, which is what we are offering, just felt like a major, you know, heels in the ground. Like why are you even suggesting something like that to me? So the irony of us recruiting for the very thing that I don't want to do. Mm-hmm. I have just very accessible internal reasons why not to join a process group. One is it is emotionally exhausting. Yes. So I currently feel like my life is already at max capacity. I have a lot going on. My bandwidth is full. Yes. Why do I need. To climb another emotional mountain every week indefinitely. I'm tired. So that's one reason not to do it. I mean, and it's not just the hour and a half or two hours, however long your group is. It's before and after like it, like before logging on and the night before, the morning of the meet, it's not. And then after sometimes. It takes up so much space. Sometimes I, I'm so jittery and I feel like I could run around the block. Other times I've cried after being a member in a group, so I'm just like, I have a meeting in 15 minutes and I'm just gonna cry for 10 of them. Or I ruminate on what I said and I'm embarrassed. I wish I could take it back. I leave you a message about it. You know, like it takes up a lot more space than the actual meeting time and dreams. Like if you're signing up to be a member in a process group, I think you're signing up for dreams, which are fun, but they're sometimes disturbing. Same thing, like they're not neutral. I wanna do a podcast episode on process groups. As revisiting your worst nightmares. Hmm. And I mean that in the sense of like the metaphor of it in the group, the invitation of the process group will pull for these replications in your life, many of which were unpleasant. So it's kinda like if I already watched that movie and I didn't like it, why would I like to enter it again as an actor? I already did it. Yeah. I don't wanna. Recreate this and feel the same feelings that I felt at whatever part of my life that was. Whether that's helplessness, fear, lack of access to myself, silencing. People have expressed a lot of things that they feel replications of, feeling scapegoated, feeling ignored. All of those things that you survived. Mm-hmm. Now you're gonna do it again and pay for it. Mm-hmm. Like that is a crazy proposition. It is. You said pay for it. That's a, that's big on my list. It is so expensive. Our groups are$80 for 80 minutes. I feel like a typical group is a hundred dollars a week. Mm-hmm. We're talking$400 a month and some are more than that. Yeah. I do think some are less than ours. Oh. Like 60, but even so, 60 to a hundred dollars a week. That is so much money. Yes. And if you were spending that money on going out to eat delicious food, you would at least be, I guarantee that I'm going to have something pleasurable inside me. Mm-hmm. For this expensive cost. Mm-hmm. But with groups, you're not even getting pleasure. Mm-hmm. Necessarily sometimes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Like I think that there's so much like laughter and connection and. Amazing stuff that happens in groups. Yeah. That is worth it. But there's also a lot of times when it might not feel like it was worth your$80 that week. So it's a very high price point. But I did just think the people pay for CrossFit. So the idea of paying for something that you know has larger gains, even if in the moment you hate doing burpees, I personally really hate doing burpees, and so I will not pay to do them. Mm-hmm. But I don't think that. People never pay for things that you're right. Cause pain, some people do. But I think it's crazy that people do CrossFit. So someone could be like, I equally think it's crazy that people do process groups. Mm-hmm. So I'm with you and I feel embarrassed about my enthusiasm about it. Yes. We joke a lot about feeling like multi-level marketers. Trying to recruit for group because it has like the same vibe. Do you have 10 minutes for me to tell you about a wonderful opportunity that will really enhance your life? And I mean it, I know, but it doesn't sound good. I know. I'm trying to tone down my own inner multi-level marketing. Mm-hmm. Self. Mm-hmm. Have a very strong aversion to multi-level marketing and I bet that my strong, strong aversion to it is because I know how I should be the top candidate. Mm-hmm. For it. Mm-hmm. You know, so I think sometimes when we have aversions to certain personalities or styles or things, it's because it's actually like's kind of close to home. So I feel like I've been duped by that kind of stuff in the past, but I think I also can dupe. I think I have the capacity, so it really, I really don't like it. It makes my skin crawl. That makes so much sense. So. One of the worst things that for culty things to do is to say, we're definitely not a cult. You know, and someone has to keep reinforcing how not culty they are. That's a flag. So I don't want to get into the habit of saying this is not a whatever, because then we're just like underscoring that it probably is whatever the thing we don't want to be. Yeah. I do want to keep reminding myself that. Even though I'm enthusiastic about Tupperware, not everyone needs Tupperware. Mm-hmm. There are other forms of keeping food. Okay. Even though I currently am excited about process groups, I need to keep telling myself, not everyone needs to be. Doing them. Mm-hmm. Or into them. Mm-hmm. Listening about them. Mm-hmm. But maybe we keep reminding ourselves of that because we could go in the opposite trajectory of like, this is the greatest thing ever. Yeah. Okay. Something I remembered that was sparked by something you said earlier was the emotional tax of being in a group. Very related to that to me is like my overall relational capacity. Like when we were told recently, we should really be in an ongoing group since we're leading not just these 12 week ones that we've been doing. My instinct is I don't know if I have the relational capacity for that. I, I also feel like I'm at full. I. Max and I feel very good about my relationships and still wanna invest more into my relationships in real life than I am doing. That would be my goal, is to get even closer to the people that are in my real life. So to add six to nine other people a week to my life that I care about, that I dream about, that I think about, that I fight with, that I'm attracted to, that I wanna be friends with, but. Something in me is just like, that doesn't make any good sense. Yes. Like your pie is already split up between too many people and people are dissatisfied with their skinny slice of your pie sometimes. Yeah. So why would you say, actually this pie is gonna go for X more people? Yeah. It feels like the, the population thing again, like if I had four kids and then someone was like, would you like triplets? I'd be like, I don't think that's good for the kids. It kind of sounds fun and interesting, maybe parts of it, but doesn't seem wise. Doesn't seem like good stewardship of my limited resources. So I could see how someone who's like, Hey, I already feel like I am neglecting my partner or my friends or my siblings or my parents or my kids or my neighbors, and if I were to up the dial on my relational output. Mm-hmm. I think there's a lot of people that are in line before, some strangers on a zoom screen. Mm-hmm. See that really not making sense. In a mathematical time, energy, relational capacity way. My counter to that, which that's not what this episode is about, is I do think that learning how to relate in the process group will water the relational plants in your life. But that's not we're saying here. Yeah. Right now we're saying it's not a good idea. I feel like I have like pathologically high relational capacity. For lots of friends and connections you do in really substantial space. Like my well never runs dry, but even, even for from my end of the spectrum, which is different than yours, even personality wise, I feel. Maxed out. Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh. I can't even fathom because you and I have done these groups. We know that relating to strangers will have a relational pull. I don't think everyone knows that yet, so they might think, I won't care about these people, so it won't actually cost me anything. But I think it actually will. Yeah. It'll take up some of your internal real estate and maybe you don't want that. Yeah. Another, this could be a plus or minus. In groups, you will be with people who are different politically than you and mm-hmm. It's not necessarily, is that called politically correct. Yeah. I think that sentence in and of itself could have a strong aversion response by a lot of people or a drawing to that. For other people. Mm-hmm. So you're right. Mm-hmm. I think that can pull or push. I don't think that's neutral. Another reason, tapping into us needing to join an ongoing group is what it means if I start researching a group to join, is that I might need to be ready to quit and I don't like quitting things. But it's a live possibility because some of my reasons are like, what if I don't like the group? What if I don't like the leader? What if I'm not getting out of it what I want? Those come up for me immediately. And the answer to that is, well, you'll have to talk about that in the group. I don't wanna talk about in the group that I don't like the leader who, who's way more experienced than me. I don't wanna talk about not liking the group. I don't wanna feel it and I don't wanna talk about it. The worst case scenario in one way is that I leave the group. I'd feel like kind of a failure as a group leader if I left a group, because my feeling right now is I could make any group better and good and find the good in it. That's been my experience so far. Like give me anybody and I'll find the good, I'll find the learning. I'll grow. Mm-hmm. I don't think that streak's gonna continue for me. I. So at some point I'm gonna have problems and I'm gonna have to talk about it and maybe even quit. And why would I pay to do that? My main fear is so close to that, which is not liking it and feeling trapped because I can't get out. Mm-hmm. Because that's like one of my fears. And I'm like, why would I pay to trap myself somewhere and then endure it forever and ever? I'm it. Mm-hmm. Like, I feel like that I get on that train, I can't get off it. So that's the, the fear of leaving is scary, but also the fear of staying. Mm-hmm. So I think that we've made a very, very strong case for no one to join. A process group, let alone ours or to listen to this, and we should just burn it right now. Okay. Thank you so much for listening. If there's something you'd like us to talk about or you're interested in trying one of our groups, please email us at saying the unsaid group@gmail.com.