Saying the Unsaid

A FIRST FAILED ATTEMPT AT DESCRIBING PROCESS GROUPS

• Sarah + Vanessa • Season 1 • Episode 4

Share episode

Sarah + Vanessa set out to describe process groups and then get distracted by their own embarrassment. 

Saying the unsaid. A conversation between a psychologist and a spiritual director who have been friends for over 30 years about process groups, the anticipated discomfort and the surprise intimacy. The inevitability of replication and the possibilities of doing something new. We're guaranteed to get some stuff right and some stuff wrong, but we're doing it anyway. Thanks for listening.

Vanessa:

Okay. We figured we should talk about what actually is a process group. Like what does being in one entail look like? Feel like? Like as straightforward as possible, right?

Sarah:

Yes. The first time I was ever exposed to a process group was about 10 years ago during my postdoc, and I pretty much observed a process group. And the rule of the group was to say what's on your mind when it's on your mind in a direct. Way so basically the whole goal of the group was just for people to say what's on their mind in the here and now, right now. Right when it comes up, and to stay within the room, which means to talk about what's happening in the room, not what's happening outside of the room. I remember sitting there at the first one and thinking this would be my worst nightmare. It was clear as day, within 30 seconds, I was like, I can't even fathom doing something like this. So I witnessed the group for a full year.

Vanessa:

Wow.

Sarah:

Two separate groups that met weekly and really did not participate at all, as certainly not a participant, but also not a leader. So pretty much a fly on the wall and was so stirred up just from witnessing it. That I was simultaneously aware of, how powerful this is and also how much I never want to have anything to do with it.

Vanessa:

So I think that the

Sarah:

seed which I was aware, like this seed has a lot of energy around it, but I definitely don't want to water it. I'm gonna continue my path towards individual work only. And it was just like a flutter in my mind of something that. Was very powerful, but nothing I wanna move towards.

Vanessa:

Yeah. You didn't have a desire in that year to be a member and join in. I feel like I would be like, oh my gosh, put me in coach.

Sarah:

No, Vanessa, you would have been like, put me in. I was like, keep me out. Wherever that happens, I do not wanna be near that. Which I think makes so much sense in terms of where I was in my own life. I was in a particular context that I know if I put words to this, my whole life is gonna fall apart.

Vanessa:

Right. Stakes are so high in that sense.

Sarah:

Yes. I'm managing my life around a lot of not saying what's on my mind. That's how I'm keeping things structurally intact. So at that point I wasn't open to that idea. But I did think that. There's something radical here about the way people are relating to each other in real, real time. That feels very scary and also very close.

Vanessa:

You experienced the group as close and relationships in the group as really compelling, dynamic close.

Sarah:

Close is not the top word I would use. There were like moments of intimacy that I thought couldn't have happened if they hadn't moved through the painful conflicts and ruptures. That they allowed to happen rather than just closing off from each other. So viscerally I felt more aware of the. The discord and discomfort than I did about the closeness and warmth. But when there were moments of closeness and warmth, it felt very deep. And moving,, It wasn't until five years later when the psychologist that I had been. Supervised by and had witnessed. His interpersonal group recommended the ones that we now have participated in, and I did it more as a intellectual educational endeavor, not really for a personal deep dive. It was in Covid, OVID, and I was simultaneously overstimulated and understimulated by being cooped up and moving our whole lives, virtual and being disconnected weird. So I mainly did it as just a. Potentially intellectually stimulating time filler, honestly. And then within 10 minutes of this particular process group, I had a rash across my chest. I was so, so activated. So I guess, let's now describe the scene of logging on.

Vanessa:

To

Sarah:

the process group. Or what happens before. When we invite someone to do it or when we have been invited ourselves.

Vanessa:

We will have a conversation with a person that's gonna join a group And then there is this group agreement that you. Get and read and sign some of the, one of the main parts about it is taking responsibility for your experience in the group and putting to words everything that's happening for you as much as you can. What I think of the group agreement is will you try your best to put into words. What you're feeling, including boredom, frustration, if you wanna like multitask during the call to say that, to notice, oh, I'm wanting to go to my texts right now. I wonder what that means about how engaged I am in the group. It even says stuff like if you take a drink of water, if you stretch, if you yawn, to put it out rather than keep it in, which feels so awkward. Like, Sarah, I'm thirsty. I'm about to take a drink of water. You know, you don't wanna like overanalyze that, but the invitation underneath that is just to notice why am I reaching for my coffee right now? Why do I feel like I need to get up and open the window and to say it? I wanna, I wanna take that, I wanna take that whole, whole part out. We have, have, we have, take that out. I, I hated, I hated. I, I hate, I, I I currently hate myself or how I described that. What do you

Sarah:

hate and what is the, what is the feeling like? What is coming up for you? And your image of self

Vanessa:

hate about that, it doesn't make sense. We are trying to make this as accessible and obvious and direct as possible, and I just went somewhere else.

Sarah:

I think it's so funny the intense reaction you had so I would, if we were in a process group, I would like to just open that up and talk about your current embarrassment and desire to rewind the tape

Vanessa:

do you have any ideas about why this particular thing registers so intensely for you? Embarra? Completely. It's because one of my greatest fears is that I am meandering. I think someone in our process group. When I was a leader and their A member even said, sometimes you're meandering in, you're leading and in your questions, and that's the worst possible thing to me to be. I remember the moment when you heard someone describe you as meandering and she later denied the word she said, I've never used that word in my life. I definitely didn't. Which I actually think is an interesting point in of itself, where the idea of. What our fears are about ourself. We are like ready to receive confirmation of them even when it's just adjacent to it. Yes. Like I would pass a polygraph test that I heard that word from her mouth about me, and I am pretty sure she would pass a polygraph test too. But the point is the same that your fear of being quote unquote meandering, which is the randomest word ever, that has a significant meaning for you. Somehow, somehow was actually identified in the group. It was That is true. If she didn't use the word, she was describing the concept. Yes. You wanted me to say very clearly and succinctly what a process group is, and then I just went totally around the block. That's one of the things I'm embarrassed about. Thank you for showing up exactly as yourself. One of the. Ideas of process groups that I like is that in a way, everything is Christopher the mill. Everything is on topic. Someone might say, I don't wanna say it right now because it's off topic, but the idea that's on your mind, it might, let's try it out. So you're going around the block, picking up random flowers and describing them. I'm wondering what was embarrassing about what you described? I embarrassed that. Of all the things on the group agreement, Why did I talk about water? Obviously I have some weird thing about that one that shouldn't have come up that no one needs to know about that it, it's so far down the list of importance. So it's what I highlighted. It's what I chose to highlight that I feel embarrassed about.

Sarah:

Okay. I love it. So what about that random quote unquote rule pulls you to it even though it's like the 18th in line?

Vanessa:

I don't know. Ever since I signed that group agreement the first time, the water one I have repeated so many times.

Sarah:

I don't think I've ever even read it. Like I know I must have checked it. I don't take it in. So you're right that there is something, it sticks in your brain and it doesn't stick in mine and. That's probably interesting on both of our accounts. Like why do I dissociate the thing? I don't even, I don't, I can't even picture it. Yeah. And you keep highlighting

Vanessa:

it over? Highlighting it. Yes. Well, what comes to mind for me now that we're talking about it, is that I always have a water bottle with me, and you even tease me about that. You'll be like, I bet you're sitting on the ground right now somewhere, drinking out of your own water bottle in someone's house when there's a chair and they have glasses. Of water available. So it's like this self-sufficiency, and kind of like a comfort thing for me to always have water. If I don't have water, I kind of panic, like, oh my gosh, I don't have water, so maybe that's why.

Sarah:

And I don't drink water.

Vanessa:

Yeah,

Sarah:

I know. My water conception is so low, which might have its own meanings. So what is the feeling or thought that comes to mind in the idea that you have all these tricks and tools to take to. Keep yourself comforted. And the idea of drawing attention to it somehow feels worth underscoring.

Vanessa:

The feeling of having my water accessible to me whenever I want is I'll be, not to be too dramatic, but I'll be safe. I won't need anything from anybody. I. If I don't have water, I, I think, oh no, I'm gonna have to get water somewhere. So then I feel a little bit out of control in that one little area of life. Whereas if I have it, I'm like, well, at least I have water. Like, I have, what I, the basics that I would need today.

Sarah:

This is congruent with something that I have learned about you recently in being in a process group with you. The idea of being very resourceful and having a backpack full of band-aids snacks. Water games. Coloring cereal. And you're kind of like a one backpack, circus slash medic, you know? And how that serves you in some way.

Vanessa:

I literally have a blue backpack with stuff in it. I use a couple times a year, but it's in there in case I might need it and in case anyone else needs it, especially a kid. I do feel like Mary Poppins and I haven't really thought about it before, and water is in the same genre,

Sarah:

One of the invitations of process groups is to reveal our resistances, which I think is a fancy term for block to intimacy and what our strategies are. And so I don't hand who cares. If you have a Mary Poppins bag that you carry around, it's fine. But if we open it up to thinking about what, how it serves you. It's, it prevents you from maybe need or discomfort if you don't have what might be needed in a particular moment.

Vanessa:

Even the thought of asking like a friend or an office mate, or like, I am so thirsty, would you happen to have any water that feels kind of vulnerable to go to a friend's house and be like. Great to see you. I need water asap. Instead, I just make sure it's always full and I always have it. The way you described it, like a one woman backpack, one woman show. when you say that, I think of myself just like walking around the city and I just have everything I need, like a little camel within myself. And it feels very independent, which makes me feel safe.

Sarah:

It also is very unintrusive on other people, there will be no needs here, no requests. That's why I make fun of you about sitting on the ground because. I personally loved chairs. You just like, no, no, no, no biggie. I'll just sit cross-legged on the floor. I'm 44 years old. I love cross-legged on the floor and I'm like, what are you talking about? So this like, I will require nothing of you to take care of my needs.. I'm flexible and I have a lot of knicknacks.

Vanessa:

Out of all the group agreements, I find myself telling people that you're supposed to talk about if you drink water and you didn't even notice that was on the list. And I was embarrassed that that's what I brought up in this podcast. And now we're talking about my relationship with this agreement, which is my relationship with water, which is my relationship with self and others.

Sarah:

It feels very relevant to me too. I would like to remind the tape and take out the part that I don't drink water, because that's embarrassing. And my mom, has been telling me to drink water since I was eight years old because it's a basic health thing. It's just so boring. I, but, but okay. So on one hand it's just embarrassing. On the other hand, when I think about it, like a dream, like if this were a dream and how, I don't even read the one that says water. I was thinking that in some ways I am cut off from my own thirst. In your case, you're aware that you're thirsty, so you need to make sure that you have what you need to kind of quench your own desire. I think for me, sometimes I have developed the, camel, like quality to not being thirsty so that I can get through the desert and be fine and sturdy. And so I think I do have a St. Sturdiness about me. And so a. Lack of thirst ness about me in certain domains. So self-contained in a way, even more than you, you have it in, a water bottle and if I'm a camel, I have it like in my own hump. Like I don't even need it. So the reason why this feels relevant is because this week I am acutely aware of my thirst. In a group that we're a part of. It feels so disorienting to me to be thirsty for, a response it is less scary for me to not be thirsty. So in a way, my lack of thirst is a very clear form of resistance or block. So it's like my version of independence. So I'm feeling a little bit, less independent right now In a group. And it's so unnerving to me. But feels like, uh, path of growth that feels actually pretty painful and I think I'd rather go back to my, not thirsty status.

Vanessa:

It reminds me of a line that you shared recently. The breast that nourished me also starved me, which is a thirst nourishing metaphor.

Sarah:

So I think my whole self in the world does have the capacity to be nourished by a breast. Of course, in certain experiences of feeling starved, I like have developed the adaptive quality of not needing to be thirsty anymore. So I feel like in some ways I'm getting retouched with my thirst, which feels very vulnerable

Vanessa:

I don't know where this all fits in, but I recently went to a pelvic floor specialist. She was trying to understand my history of. Peeing. And it was the first time I was talking to somebody about my liquid intake I could have cried leaving the first appointment and then I wept leaving the second appointment and I did not know what was going on. Like, why is this so intimate and vulnerable to me? I had to keep a diary of my. Fluid intake, and then my pee. And one of the things, this is all TMI, so we'll probably take it out, but one of the things was how often I drink a little bit and then how often I pee a little bit. And the invitation was to pee less frequently. So to only go once every two to three hours and to go more at once and to drink more significantly. Instead, I sip. All day long, and that's part of my attachment to water is not actually getting thirsty. Where you like, gulp, gulp, gulp, gulp, gulp. I prevent myself from having that experience by sipping all day long.

Sarah:

It's interesting because when you were saying the water bottle is a source of comfort, so. When I think of you, I don't think of you as super self comforting in a way. You're not indulgent. You're more on that depravity side of things. It's not like you are eating lavish meals three times a day to prevent your hunger. It's like just taking an itty bitty amount to make sure you don't experience it, It feels more, resonant of my experience of you then. Like she's always just overly fulfilling all of her needs all the time. It's more like just enough, like, it's like putting gas in your tank, uh, gallon or two at a time, gallon or two at a time. And the doctor is saying, you can just fill your tank and go for a while.

Vanessa:

Our intent with this episode was to describe to people. In a really straightforward way, what a process group is, and now instead we've ended up here,

Sarah:

I would say we failed at describing process groups in this episode and we demonstrated something else. So that's okay. Maybe next time. We'll be more succinct.

Thank you so much for listening. If there's something you'd like us to talk about or you're interested in trying one of our groups, please email us at saying the unsaid group@gmail.com.