IS GROUP FOR REALLY DIRECT PEOPLE TOO?

Sarah + Vanessa talk about whether process groups can still be beneficial for people who don't seem to have a hard time "saying the unsaid."

Transcript

Sarah: 0:05

Saying the unsaid. A conversation between a psychologist and a spiritual director who have been friends for over 30 years about process groups, the anticipated discomfort and the surprise intimacy. The inevitability of replication and the possibilities of doing something new. We're guaranteed to get some stuff right and some stuff wrong, but we're doing it anyway. Thanks for listening.

Vanessa: 0:41

So a question we wanna talk about today is. Is saying the unsaid for people who are already super direct. I have done this already, you know, in sharing about this group with a friend, talking about what it's like, and then realizing as I'm saying it, oh, you already do this, you know, maybe this isn't something you need, which is probably just my own self-consciousness about like, nevermind, I'm not trying to invite you to something. But that does trip me up a little bit is sometimes thinking maybe this group is just for people like me who tend to be quiet, polite, non-confrontational. Maybe it's just for people who need to find their voice, and maybe it's not for people who already have a voice.

Sarah: 1:33

Yes. I feel a little. Preemptively self-conscious talking about how groups are good for direct people, because it feels like that's like me talking about how people on Mars live it feels so presumptuous for me to talk about the experience for direct people since I don't.

Vanessa: 1:54

Since you're not

Sarah: 1:54

one. I'm not one, you know? Yeah. So this is, this is just what I speculate could possibly be true. Maybe another embarrassment about having people that are already direct in the groups is'cause maybe we as leaders think wow, they're better at this than we are. Definitely. Which not happens. Yes. In our groups, there are people that are better at saying the unsaid than I'm as the leader. So I don't just want those types of people to come to our groups because they can be like a model citizen that we can all follow, right? Even that could be one of the benefits

Vanessa: 2:34

and has been

Sarah: 2:35

and has been. One thought I have is that since we're picturing process groups as being a microcosm of the world

Vanessa: 2:43

mm-hmm.

Sarah: 2:44

The world consists of people with varying capacities to put things into words and to be direct and indirect. Nice. So it would be a false world if we just recruit the 10 most polite people we know and say, let's go for it Yeah. I think there's probably sports metaphors, which is another territory that I shouldn't enter because I'm really bad at sports knowledge. But if you were trying to get a local kickball team, you don't just wanna get the weakest links like 10 of the weakest kickball players to play, that's okay. But it's also okay to have some really strong kids or really fast kids out there. And learning how to cooperatively play a game means that strong people have to contend with weak people fast. People have to contend with slow people and vice versa. So I like the idea of people of various skill sets, even in terms of their awareness of what's going on with them internally and their ability to put that to words.

Vanessa: 3:45

Yeah, and that feels like one distinction. I tend to think since these people are from Mars, for me too, I tend to think direct people are in touch with what they're feeling and that they're speaking out of conviction. I. And a pure place.'cause I put people who are direct and honest on a pedestal, and I'm just like, they already got the golden ticket. Mm-hmm. Because it's what I've been trying to do my whole life and find so difficult. But the truth is, I'm guessing that just because they're direct and honest, quickly or easily doesn't necessarily mean that it's. Fruitful for their lives all the time, or coming from a pure, premeditated place, they could still have a lot of anxiety and they could be really direct and honest out of that anxiety in a way that's not fruitful. Right.

Sarah: 4:42

In conversations with people that we experience as direct and as heavy lifters in the direct

Vanessa: 4:49

area.

Sarah: 4:49

Some people have said that, that ability to lift that weight, can come at a cost even to themselves because sometimes the first draft intense emotional directness might not be their second draft or third draft, which for me, who's inclined to keep all the drafts silent until I'm pretty sure about what I want to say, but then I. Connecting with people along the way. There's a different risk, I think, turning in your first draft for your final grade, and then, Ooh, that might have been stronger than I meant, or, Ooh, I might've been too hungry when I made that comment. Yeah. Or I might have been stressed out about work and I took it out on my partner, or, yes, I communicated directly and enthusiastically, but. I might wanna adjust it a little bit.

Vanessa: 5:44

Mm-hmm.

Sarah: 5:45

That could be an example where direct communication isn't even directly communicating with the person wants to put out into the world.

Vanessa: 5:54

Yeah.

Sarah: 5:56

Another thought I have is that super direct people might not know how they are impacting those around them because some of the people around them might be more like us, who. Are more the grin and bear it types or tolerate and nod. Mm-hmm. And rather than say, ouch, that really stung. I think that does people a disservice to not have access to the reaction that they're causing

Vanessa: 6:22

yeah. Which reminds me of another benefit for direct people is something that's different about these groups is that everybody is signing up to play by these rules. Not withstanding varying capacities to do so, so I can't imagine it could be very lonely sometimes to be a very direct and honest person when your friend group or your partner or your siblings did not sign up for this. That's not what they were looking for on a Tuesday night or at Christmas or something like that. Whereas in this group, there's this quote unquote safety of knowing that other people are saying, I wanna grow in this. And that could feel so kind of freeing and fun for direct people to interact with. People who say, yeah, send me up.

Sarah: 7:19

I'm picturing based on what you just shared, the frustration that might be. A part of the experience of being more direct if other people aren't doing it. I do sometimes think of group as like playing volleyball and if someone is really spiking the ball hard and everyone else is just turning around and letting it ricochet off their shoulder, that is actually incredibly annoying me as a mediocre volleyball player. Even I in my mediocre status, don't like playing with people that won't. Attempt to go for the ball. Yeah. That could be like the world for people who are good at volleyball playing metaphorically. Yeah. Like why are you guys all just turning away or doing the tiniest. Bump or something, you know, are we playing a game? Aren't we like actually doing this? So in that way, at least the group is offering the rules of engagement. That might come more naturally, like, great, this is the game I've been wanting to play. Why can't anyone play? In that case, it still could be frustrating for them in the context of a group to be with weaker players, but if there was a legitimate interest in finding out about how their spikes. Resonate with people.

Vanessa: 8:37

Yeah. Be very, very valuable. So this is one of the reasons why the group being mostly strangers is so beneficial to everybody. Instead of a direct friend saying to another friend I really want you to dish it back to me the same way I dish it to you. The other person can be like, Ugh, that's not my way. That's not my style. And the stakes are so high. Whereas in a group with strangers, you can elicit that kind of feedback and get it within seconds.

Sarah: 9:15

Or if you don't get it within seconds, it's possible that other members of the group would be able to. Identify that, let's say person A spikes the volleyball with intensity to person B and then says, okay, tell me how that was. And person B really can't verbalize it. The C, D and E might be like, I think that probably felt like this or probably felt like that. So we can use the collective imagination of the group to also talk about how these lines of communication land. So it's not up to person. B to be able to fully answer the question, which they may or may not have the capacity to do

Vanessa: 9:58

is saying the unsaid for people who are already super direct. One kind of false thing about that question is as if process groups are to develop a certain skill, and if you have that skill, you can graduate. Whereas I have a feeling right now as a member in a group that I could be in a group for the rest of my life because it feels never ending. The kind of work I could do there and the kind of learning I could experience there.

Sarah: 10:36

I definitely agree. Life is made up of groups. So you are going to be in groups for the rest of your life, right? They just might not be a process group that you meet on Tuesday on Zoom. They might be work or family or your neighborhood or your Religiou institution or whatever. So. We'll be lifelong learners of how to participate in a group, whether you do it in intentional process groups. Mm-hmm. Or you just live on planet earth it's not required to be in a process group to have good relationships, but you could use this as a continued gym to keep yourself strong in various ways and work out the muscles and. Yeah, because I in the world am comfortable at flexing certain muscles and then some of them are not used at all. So the group is really trying to use unused muscles, I think for everyone. Which of their muscles are weaker and which are stronger. So I imagine that people who are direct have certain muscles that are really strong and other ones that are weaker, the process group could facilitate the growth of those and identify what they are. So the answer to the question is absolutely yes. The process groups are for people who are already good at. Saying the unsaid, because part of it is also if you say the unsaid, have you been in the position where the next person can also say the unsaid, and then you can say it back and then they can also say it back as opposed to saying the unsaid in a vacuum or in a way that elicits defensiveness or. Aggression because it's possible that if someone exists in a relationship where everyone is being very direct, but not listening, that could have its own adverse consequences, where if the goal of the process group is intimacy, direct communication doesn't inherently equal intimacy. There has to be a back and forth, which is hard to do. It's hard when the other person is just the passive recipient. I have had that situation in my life where I had a friend who was extremely direct and I experienced her as very scary and harsh. Mm-hmm. So then I would like, play dead. Yeah. And be still. And that made her even more mad because I felt like I wasn't engaged with her, but really I was just scared of her. And she kept communicating her anger at me and I couldn't, I couldn't even ping pong back. I just laid dead. This is not a, not a hin of human communication and intimacy that I was participating in. The lack of it by my, like, I just, I couldn't. Stay. So that person was rightfully frustrated at me if I was equally big, strong and scary, and she spikes the ball at me, and I just spike it harder at her. We also might not be able to have an intimate, we might not be able to have a flow of, like the, the volleyball flow. What's it called? Yeah.

Vanessa: 13:53

Um, like the bump set, spike. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah: 13:59

That is what is so fun about volleyball is when you can get into the flow of bump, set, spike, bump, set, spike, bump, set, spike, and that can't happen if you have two spikers. And it also can't happen if you have two people laying on the beach motionless. Yeah. So I think it requires the ability for all different energy states and personalities to be able to. Play the game, sometimes people will say, that's just the way I am. I'm just a spiker, or I'm just a, a possum, or whatever. I don't even know if that's how you say the word of that animal, but I have mixed feelings about that because I do think that a lot of us have character structures that are pretty intact and aren't fully moldable. Mm-hmm. But at the same time, even if I am 90% this way, I think there's a 10% growth potential to do something new rather than just like, sorry, I can't fight. I play dead every time. Sorry, that's who I am. I play dead. I play dead. Or I say it like it is. I say it like it is. Okay. I'm glad you have that muscle developed, but. You might wanna have some adaptability with that if it's not working for you. Relationship.

Vanessa: 15:18

Yeah. I love that. The goal, you said the goal of group is intimacy. So this question is asking, is it for people who are already super direct? It's more a question of are they experiencing the kind of intimacy they want to in their relationships while being a really direct person?

Sarah: 15:37

Yeah. So I think the graduation. Quiz would be more about, are your relationships intimate and satisfying?

Vanessa: 15:49

Mm-hmm.

Sarah: 15:50

So than does every thought come right outta your mouth,

Vanessa: 15:54

yeah. A related question that I just talked to somebody who's joining one of our groups, his concern was that these kinds of groups would fetishize meanness. Which we talked about in another episode. A bit like, is there a group for unsaying? The said, but it all feels related to me.

Sarah: 16:19

My first association, when you said that if you offer sex education to kids, does that mean they're gonna be going around having crazy sex?

Vanessa: 16:28

Yeah.

Sarah: 16:29

No, that's statistically not true. I think we have a fear of like, if you. Take the leash, whatever, loosen it all chaos, break loose. That is a fear. Yeah. If I try to open my mouth, will I just have pure vial coming out in every direction? Constantly?

Vanessa: 16:47

Yeah. I think, honestly,

Sarah: 16:49

probably not, actually. Surprisingly not.

Vanessa: 16:53

I.

Sarah: 16:55

Yeah. So sometimes when people jokingly ask like, is this blunt club or is this like mean club, you will find that not to be the case at all. I mean, is there a discomfort? Yes, I would say, but meanness I don't think I've detected much meanness. So there is a fear of will I become my wildest imagination of whatever I think is the most uncontained and terrible Yeah, and that's not true. Oh, I think the fear of what if this leash goes on forever and ever and I can never pull it back. So therefore we shouldn't make any movement towards it. Is a fear. It's why we hold back. I think.

Vanessa: 17:38

Yeah. It's like the slippery slope argument. Yes. Whereas ironically, I can be very mean by looking, very polite and actually a lot less cruel when I say what I'm fe feeling and thinking when I'm talking to someone. Yes. Like you think it's gonna come out so mean and then it doesn't.

Sarah: 18:07

Yes,

Vanessa: 18:08

sometimes

Sarah: 18:11

yes. I think that I'm coming to believe that clarity is kindness. That directness is kindness, as opposed to, I don't wanna hurt their feelings, so I won't say anything. I'll just. I talk shit about them behind their back for the rest of my life, you know, I think I am mean actually, Vanessa, I've mean since like fourth grade. Um, but my meanness is not direct.

Vanessa: 18:36

Right?

Sarah: 18:38

I moved to a new school in fourth grade and made a single friend or maybe two, and one of the things that we kind of latched onto each other about was being mean, in our secret life. Mm-hmm. So I, would've one nicest student, but I'm actually mean. Whereas if I say I don't like that, or I'm bothered or I'm annoyed, that's actually kindness. It's actually a version of connecting. Yeah. So back to the direct or not direct, I think we sometimes can think that the non-direct oh, I just don't wanna hurt anyone, so I'm just gonna let the ball like Rico shit off my shoulder. That's actually not nice. It's not fun to play with you and it's not nice to the game, but at the same time, versions of directness can be misinterpreted. So it's not one always works. Yeah. To connect and to play.

Vanessa: 19:34

Anything else to say about this is saying the unsaid for people who are already direct.

Sarah: 19:41

Not today. Maybe we'll have more to say in the future when we see it play out more.

Vanessa: 19:48

Yeah, I agree. Thank you so much for listening. If there's something you'd like us to talk about or you're interested in trying one of our groups, please email us at saying the unsaid group@gmail.com.