WHY WE CAN'T BE NORMAL WITH EACH OTHER AS CO-LEADERS AND WHY WE WISH WE WERE

Sarah + Vanessa realize they have unconscious ingrained habits around not relating to one another in front of groups and how they hope they can do something new.

Transcript

0:05

Saying the unsaid. A conversation between a psychologist and a spiritual director who have been friends for over 30 years about process groups, the anticipated discomfort and the surprise intimacy. The inevitability of replication and the possibilities of doing something new. We're guaranteed to get some stuff right and some stuff wrong, but we're doing it anyway. Thanks for listening.

Sarah: 0:41

This brings us into the topic of how do we co-lead together? Yes. And the metaphor that we've been using this week is co-parent, since one of our participants used that word for us, and it's also a perfect word since the group can be a form of recreating a family and. This has been shockingly eye-opening for both of us in terms of we have a set way of doing things that has been way under explored that we think is the only option. And we're wondering if there other options out there for us as co-leaders?

Vanessa: 1:17

Yes. I thought we were kind of like mature. Co-parents in a way because simply because of our history mm-hmm. Best friends for 30 years co-leading a group. It's so innate. It's so natural. We don't even need to talk about it. We just open the zoom room. If you start to say hello, I don't need to, if there's a silence, I might have a question. You might. We just never need to talk about that again. We've just been married forever and everything's fine in the context of the group hour. Yes, to realize that actually we're not engaging with each other whatsoever during the 80 minutes that is group was shocking to me and that we could that, that is a possibility. Say your name to look at you, to address you, to laugh with you. Anything?

Sarah: 2:23

Yes. This came up for me, A, with the feedback of one of our members. And then B, we're going to be leading a demonstration group that we're gonna record. As a part of our supervision. And when someone said, oh, it's gonna be so fun watching you co-lead and. How the quote unquote kids, in the group get to watch their parents talk to one another and talk about them. And I was like, excuse me, I've, I've never acknowledged that Vanessa exists.

Vanessa: 2:54

I think they even said like banter or something. I was like, banter. Yes. All of

Sarah: 3:01

that is behind the scenes. Yes. So obviously we have a. Ocean's worth of banter and play and dialogue and connection and laughter, blah, blah, blah. But for some reason we zip it up in presence of the other, which is the group, and it's such a knee-jerk learned reality that I don't even know that I do it until right now.

Vanessa: 3:32

Hearing that, that's what we're doing. It feels wrong to me. Like for the parents to take up space in a group feels wrong. I'm like, well, no, you're not gonna in this demo group. I'm thinking to our co people, like our peers or colleagues or whatever, you're not gonna see Sarah and I just reveling in conversation with each other on other people's dime and time. I would not do that. That's part of why it just is so outta the box. It's not even like, as soon as they said it, I was like, we get to do that. I'm, I'm more like, that would be so wrong. It feels selfish

Sarah: 4:10

or something

Vanessa: 4:11

to do. Yeah.

Sarah: 4:12

Self-centered, US centered. And I guess one of the fears is that if we did, and that was someone's response, that would be, that would reaffirm the, oh, you're right. We should zip it up and just put on our horse blinders and look directly forward. Do not look at your best friend that's sitting next to you in the Zoom I. Maybe that's one of the fears. Mm-hmm. And we would have to face that, I guess. But the alternative is us being these weird co-parents who sit on the bleachers and never look at each other, but just keep their eyes right on the field all the time until after the game's over and you go home. It's very mentalized. So I'm wondering like, where did we learn that? And then how do we unlearn it? Which feels awkward and I, I don't like being awkward. So that feels, I have some dread about trying to adjust the way we leave'cause I don't like looking weird,

Vanessa: 5:05

I guess,

Sarah: 5:06

publicly. Me too, me too.

Vanessa: 5:09

So when you said that, I thought one way we learned it is that we've been debriefing experiences since we were like 13. Yes. We would go to school, we would hang out with this really cool group of girls. We would go to youth group, and we would both be trying to be good students, good friends, likable people, pleasers. And then we would go home and we would talk about it. Yes. So that reflex started being developed because we loved the talking about it. Yes. So my favorite part,

Sarah: 5:48

so actually it's interesting'cause sometimes when I invite people into what to do in a process group, I say that. I say the things you would say in the car to your best friend in the drive away from the event or the weekend or the whatever. Can you bring some of that? Yeah. To the public. So I guess I'm talking to myself. Can you have the. Authentic responsiveness that you have with Vanessa, with another person or a group of people. And to me, that's the most fun self. That's why I have the most fun with you because, I am myself the most, I've fullest range of myself, and I love it so much. And then in process groups, when I can see, or in our consultation group that there's permission to be most of myself. That feels so fun. And I was like, this is what it feels like to be with Vanessa under the covers in the sleepover, after a thing where you're laughing about what happened, what you hated, what turned you off, what turned you on, all of the things. Yeah. So we're somehow

Vanessa: 6:56

still waiting to leave. So that's one place it developed. It seems like you're thinking of something else related. Are you.

Sarah: 7:06

Well, this was similar to something that you said earlier today in our consultation group, was the idea of mission over friendship, pleasure, self, and that when we existed together, when we shared the same space in terms of church, I think that there was a higher good to be. Forward facing to the group as opposed to taking time away to just enjoy who's sitting next to you until you're off, out of the room, outside. And here we have a goal in mind that we think is very valuable and good. So there is a task at hand Yeah. That we think is generative and life changing and amazing. So there, there is a parallel and can you be a part of a generative thing and also be a friend to your friend. Yeah.

Vanessa: 8:08

I remember we gave a talk on Joy when we were like 15 and I don't know if we use this, but my. Understanding of the ingredients of joy are Jesus others yourself in that order?

Sarah: 8:21

Mm-hmm.

Vanessa: 8:22

Like you'll have joy if you put Jesus first, others next in yourself. Last,

Sarah: 8:27

yeah.

Vanessa: 8:27

I think that's why I'm weird like this with you when we co-parent, because there's this very kind of evangelical template in me that we're supposed to have some higher purpose. The way you do that is being others first and then yourself last, and there's such an identification with you that you are part of the last I'm last, but you're last too. So to reverse that Yeah. Is what kind of feels like invitation is, to put myself first and you first over the group members over the others and that might lead to joy. In our Jesus, Jesus third place,

Sarah: 9:11

Curtis, you know, pretty good. Um, yes. And, and the belief that that would somehow be destabilizing or disorienting to the group, that's the, like, it would be taking away, thinking yesterday when I emailed you about this topic, the verse of. I may decrease. So you can increase. Loved that. The same concept of the acronym of joy or whatever the, I must become smaller for you to become larger I think the you in that is God. But in the group, I think that the inverse. Is true, and this is what we say to participants. Paradoxically, we know you believe this your whole life, whether you're religious or not, that somehow I must decrease so you can increase. I feel like that's a pretty common idea. Yeah. Collectively, that's probably reinforced by certain religious frames in mind, but paradoxically, I need to increase so that you can increase. It feels like that doesn't work mathematically. Mm-hmm. But it actually does, like there's an exponential, if myself is fully present, I give space for yourself to be fully present and then that's how I feel participant to participant. So we encourage people don't wait because you want to decrease, so others can increase, keep increasing and others will too. I understand that. And we could do a speech about it, but what I haven't understood. Is the leaders can also increase, so the group can increase. It feels like, I agree with it, member to member, but the leaders, you really need to rein it in to give space for the participant. Yes, that might be true in terms of time, air time, air time. But I, but what I'm wondering is maybe it doesn't have to be true in terms of like essence or energetically. Energetically, like when we lead together. I generally love it so much. I'm so stimulated, so moved, so bothered. I am awake, alert, sweaty, and the moment it's over. I'm so excited because I get to see you when you're there. I just like, you don't need to wait to see Vanessa Vanessa's there. You're together.

Vanessa: 11:33

I know.

Sarah: 11:35

I think that this also follows a lot of parenting styles that are child first, where you can see that the parents don't have a lot of vitality between them, but there's a big focus on meeting the needs of the kids. It's a universal statement. There's obviously not universal, but. This happens a lot where the whole family becomes oriented around the child's needs, the child's practices, music lessons, friends schedule. And I've seen this with a lot of my clients that there's so little time for the couple to actually laugh, talk, say what bothers them. That's becomes The last thing to be prioritized, and I think that we think that that's doing the children a favor, but there's also types of thinking that says not necessarily

Vanessa: 12:29

one formative co-parenting style for me, or some leaders in our church who I really looked up to and just thought they have the key I. They know the secret to success and the way that they did it was they were like side by side cheerleaders for the mission of the church, and yet interpersonally between them, they didn't have a lot of respect. It felt like there was a lot more under the surface, like it felt like kind of cutting, like I'd be a little bit nervous actually to be maybe behind closed doors, but being in open doors, being in the same room with them, it was like they put all of that aside. That's what they modeled to me. All of that stuff aside, whatever's really going on between the two of you and. Look really amazing and be really compelling cheerleaders that are shoulder to shoulder. So even though we started this in high school with the be good students and good friends at the public things, and then let's go tell the truth to each other afterwards. It was really cemented watching them and unconsciously thinking that's the way to be successful in the world with your closest people.

Sarah: 14:00

And I, I do think that we were taught that pretty explicitly that the energy and focus and preference to the group was more important than to the couple, whoever the couple is, and I guess maybe vicariously to the friendship. So yeah, that, felt explicitly, not even just subtly picked up on. Both were happening.

Vanessa: 14:29

Totally. The other rule that I didn't think of was that you weren't allowed to be in the same small group as your partner.

Sarah: 14:40

Yes.

Vanessa: 14:40

That was explicit, which was so counter to American Christianity where it's all couples in Bible studies or whatever, which is usually pretty boring. So I understood it, like, yeah, let's do something different. Let's not be in the same group, but. Implicitly, it said, that is definitely not a priority like you, you shouldn't have fun together. You shouldn't do things together. There's a bigger mission out here and we need you in two different groups to expand your range. There's something, maybe that's why we hesitated leading groups a little bit. I don't know if we're allowed to do this. I don't know if we're allowed to bring our two selves into the same space. It doesn't feel like it's maximizing. Yes. Input in the world feels a little too good to be true, A little too selfish to be true. Mm-hmm. A little too insular, too

Sarah: 15:31

fun. One of our early participants when I did a debrief call, did say that she's been in different groups throughout her. Life in various contexts. And that the idea of it being led by a friendship that you could sense had a lot of vitality to, it was one of the most compelling parts of being in our group that you knew, like the fire already has a lot of energy. Yeah. To come around. And she said that's very unique and was fun. And that felt really resonant and good. Now I'm thinking, wow, we haven't even. We have like one tiny twig in our collective in terms of the 80 minutes. For some reason, we snuff it out. Yes, that's one of the primary draws

Vanessa: 16:22

to me. I thought we were operating like our full selves in these groups. I did too. But you know how they say you use 10% of your brain? We are using 10%. Or less of our friendship in these groups. So at first I heard it as very bad news, like, oh my gosh, we've been the weirdest leaders possible right now. But the good news is how much more fun could it possibly be to access and live out our friendship, live in real time?

Sarah: 16:54

It feels so fun. And then there's still a part in the back of my brain is, but you could go too far and you could. Steal the goodness from other people and why are you doing that? We actually have gotten some negative feedback being in process groups with one another.

Vanessa: 17:10

Yeah.

Sarah: 17:11

So maybe I'm also nervous about that. It feels like we've gotten fingers wagged at us a couple times about being friends, so maybe I, I also don't like getting in trouble, so

Vanessa: 17:23

I'm very anti clicky. Or I try to be and wanna be I just don't like the idea of being critiqued for being cliquey. I wanna be very conscientious of other people, and as soon as there's a whiff of that, I backpedal and like, sorry, sorry. I enjoyed that too much

Sarah: 17:42

when thinking about like opposite day and our inclinations for certain things might be because there's a opposite inclination. Just wondering about the inclination to always include. Never be cliquey, could come out of a, I also like having a friend that will just shit, talk for the back of the bus. You know what I mean? Yes, you're right. That also exists. I'm not Mother Theresa you know?

Vanessa: 18:11

Another piece that I was trying to access earlier, is that we think it's better for the child to be child focused, for them to be the center of our universe. Yes. When really that is a ton of pressure. Yes. For the kid and really, really scary. Whereas the kid looks up in the stand and the parents are like laughing, crying'cause they're laughing so hard. That is actually very stabilizing. Exciting to be the kid who sees that instead of two parents that are just like glaring at them. Like, don't miss the ball. Don't miss the ball. Don't miss the ball. Or cheering too much.

Sarah: 18:50

I like that. In this metaphor, we're sports brands because I'm just the opposite of a sports mom, but I think Arabic metaphor, I agree. There's a lot of people that stay married for the children, even when the marriage is not. Mutually satisfying or worse. And I generally disagree with that so much because the type of, we're staying together like gritted teeth, we're doing it for you, but you'll see no enjoyment coming from us to one another. I just feel like it's not a huge favor to the child.

Vanessa: 19:23

Mm-hmm.

Sarah: 19:23

And that was certainly in my case, it wasn't a gift to the children to stay in an unhappy marriage. And have that be the model of this is what it's like. Don't really talk to each other, look at each other, laugh with each other, cry with each other. But they do love us deeply, which we did. We both Did and do. But for them to witness their parents as simultaneously attentive to their needs, but also. Loving walking down the street with their partner and talking, and the child can sense that they have enough on their own. It's not, we need to produce to keep them afloat. Oh my gosh.

Vanessa: 20:07

It's very nice. Okay, so this is us talking before we try this. Exactly. So we hope to talk about this again once we have some awkward attempts at looking at each other and relating to each other live.

Sarah: 20:21

My primary. Goal is for it to not sound like we're doing a skit. It's like, I hate skits so much. Oh, it's so weird because this is the person you talk naturally to, but I just, I feel like I'm gonna turn it into going on stage and acting I don't want

Vanessa: 20:39

that.

Sarah: 20:39

Oh,

Vanessa: 20:41

That was my initial thought too, when. Jacob was like, can't wait to watch you guys leave and joke and talk about everybody behind their back in front of their back. I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. And within two weeks time before this demo group starts, I'm gonna have to figure out how to fake what you're talking about in the demo group. I was already prepared to be like, do you wanna do it? Like, Hey Sarah, this is my pass. I don't know what to do here, do you? No. So hopefully we

Sarah: 21:12

can be normal. That's, that's what I mean, I guess we'll find out.

Vanessa: 21:16

Yeah. Okay.

21:19

Thank you so much for listening. If there's something you'd like us to talk about or you're interested in trying one of our groups, please email us at saying the unsaid group@gmail.com.