A SECOND FAILED ATTEMPT AT DESCRIBING PROCESS GROUPS, SKATEBOARDING AND SALSA EDITION

Sarah + Vanessa try to describe what a process group is, again.

Transcript

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Saying the unsaid. A conversation between a psychologist and a spiritual director who have been friends for over 30 years about process groups, the anticipated discomfort and the surprise intimacy. The inevitability of replication and the possibilities of doing something new. We're guaranteed to get some stuff right and some stuff wrong, but we're doing it anyway. Thanks for listening. This is our second attempt to try to describe what a process group is. I already feel nervous about being able to do it. I just anticipate being like, we didn't do it again. That's probably true. And I am in a bad mood, which I'm not often. Mm-hmm. So it doesn't feel like the ideal place to be in to record something that's supposed to be fun and engaging. Do you wanna tell me a little bit about your bad mood before we get into process groups? Um, I. No, I don't wanna say the content but just that, it feels like a bit of a block for me. Like, if you were to say, let's not record today, I would think, oh, that's probably better since I'm in a bad mood. Why would being in a bad mood not be good? That's my assumption. Mm-hmm. When maybe it's a good kind of energy actually. Yeah, for more life, like maybe it propels me to make changes or make other decisions Besides what put me in the bad moon, the first thing that comes to mind is that one of the. Primary invitations of a process group mm-hmm. Is to put towards every single thing that is coming up for you. And that all feelings are welcome. All sensations are welcome. All fantasies are welcome. And so in a way you're demonstrating that bad moods are welcome. Yeah. There's nothing that you need to leave at the door. When coming into the space of process group? Irritation, boredom, desire hurt. Mm-hmm. Do you know what is the tone or. I don't know. Genre of your bad mood. Yeah. I was thinking of a question we sometimes ask in group if someone has a feeling, if you could do something with that feeling, what would you do? So I was already picturing I'm on like the third floor of a building, I'd drop my laptop out of the window and be like, oops. Mm-hmm. Because part of my bad mood is how many texts and emails. I got early this morning for things that seemed urgent mm-hmm. To other people, and I addressed them. Mm-hmm. And instead of doing what I wanted to do to get ready for the day, so something was imposed upon you. I mean, I'm the one that responded to them, but yeah. Does this. Conversation feel imposed upon you, um, no, I, I mean, huh. I don't know. Maybe. Mm-hmm. Maybe like, I think, well, we have to do this, but also I think I'm excited for it because this is the kind of space where I can be honest about that. Mm-hmm. Instead of. Just bracket myself and do the work. Yes. So one of the invitations of a process group is to try to un bracket yourself. Mm-hmm. Which we do a lot in our. Real lives, at least I do a lot in my real life, like determine this is the space to be benignly complimentary. This is the space to pretend that you're interested. This is the space to whatever. Yeah. And the process group space is to actually show up as you are not perfected or interesting or interested in what's happening. That's why I love group partly because no matter what you're coming in with, you already said this, but it's like, bring it. Mm-hmm. Something that I am aware of, one of my character flaws and even this conversation has come up in the last week mm-hmm. Is how I have at times a mismatch between my affect and my content. I think I used to be more split than I am now. I hope where there's coming across as. Pleasant or poised or fine and internally not. Mm-hmm. So one of my goals for being in a process group, which I'm interviewing for one this week, is to try to close the gap mm-hmm. Between what's going on within me and what's going on outside of me. Mm-hmm. That they more mirror one another rather than have a split. I just watched a video of myself in a demo process group, and so even in the context of a process group, my affect didn't match what I was feeling. I looked very happy and engaged. I think I even said, I'm so excited and I know that I was irritated and mad, so. Apparently I still have a very long ways to go.'cause even in the context of signing an agreement of I promise to put to words, I promise to say what's going on. Even when I'm trying to do it, I don't do it. Yeah. So it takes a lot of practice. Oh, so much practice and courage. I think that would be the main thing that feels required of me to stay in a process group and to lead one. Mm-hmm. Is do I have the courage it takes to be honest and present to what's actually happening? Yes. It's a muscle that I need to develop over and over and over again with practice to be able to say exactly what's happening for me. And to say matched. Mm-hmm. I don't know what I'm gonna say about this, but I'm opening my mouth, uh, that I have mixed feelings about the agreements, the process, group of agreements I loved before I joined one, getting a document that said, these are the ideals. It's like a ruler, like here's something to reach for, to be guided by. Thank you. This is so helpful to know that these are some of the goals. And then I remember being pretty bothered for the first group I was in by the fact that I wasn't doing them, and it felt like a lack of integrity. Like I said, I would do this, I signed it, and now I'm not doing it. So I had some angst about that, that I shared with the leader in the debrief. Like why did you set me up for this impossible situation? Hmm. And then I kind of took the agreements for granted moving forward because I understood these are here to help me and I can review them and be inspired and get courage from them when I want to. They can pro provoke me to keep growing, is now what I think of them. But now that we're leading groups, people have a lot of feelings about the agreements, like mm-hmm. I'm remembering how I did too. Mm-hmm. Like, why are they there? Why are they so long? Why don't we do them? you know? Mm-hmm. I'm having a association one of my closest friends loves skateboarding, Hmm, and skates as much as humanly possible for a grownup with kids and a full-time job. And he just traveled to Taiwan. And while in Taiwan he met a skateboarder who asked if he could give him a hint or idea related to his skating. And John said yes, and he just gave him like a tiny micro movement of how to hold his, I don't know, shoulder or something while doing something. And it was a major game changer for John. So then he kept saying whatever else you have to say, tell me and I'll do it. Wow. Um, so I was just thinking about. If someone had a manual on how to write a skateboard, you might check off the things. Okay, I understand I'll do these things, but you still have to just practice in a bad form or a increasingly better form, but not a perfect form, even if you read it. And he's been skating for decades and a little tweak is helping him. Have more fluid movement. Hmm. But I think hopefully that the group agreements are little ideas of tweaks to make in order to be more present to yourself and therefore present to the other person. And you can't master them all right away, but you can revisit them and, oh yeah, I should put more weight on this leg or that leg. I, or, oh, you're right. When I have a. Feeling of pull away, I should mention it. Or when I feel a longing, I should put that to words. I know that when I'm mastering my, skateboarding in a process group, when I can tell that I am internally and externally congruent. It is so, much fun for me. It's all I wanna do. And when there's a split that does not feel good. Yeah. But even me being able to detect my internal split is movement towards the goal of being able to be fully myself with another person. Yeah. There's nothing else like that feeling of aliveness. That I've experienced in group. But there's so many moments of aggravation too along the way and just feeling stuck, like, I don't know how to do something different. I don't know how to actually tweak my shoulder. Midair like that. Yes. One of the. Kinda requirements for a process group is being able to tolerate both your own discomfort and also tolerate other people's discomfort, especially when it's being directed at you. One of the things of a group is that it serves as multiple mirrors. Of yourself and everyone's mirror is shaped a little bit differently. So it's kind of like the funny mirrors of the carnival. So you're not getting a perfect reflection back, but you are getting a reflection back. The combination between how people perceive you is partially their own perception. Yeah. Which we call transference in the psychoanalytic world. But it also is in part. What you're giving off. So there's a combination of people are picking up on dynamics within me that might be flattering or not. And then there also is a projection that also might be flattering or not. But if people can tolerate that feeling and investigate where is this coming from? Is this familiar? What about this is true? A lot of. Learning can take place. Mm-hmm. I was remembering that in a group we were in as members at the very end, someone was like, Vanessa, you actually were great. Like you did great. Like another member, she didn't like me at first, and then she was like, but. Really impressed, you know? And then this guy said, personally, I was really underwhelmed by you, Vanessa, and I laughed because I thought he was joking and it was really good dry humor from him to be like, not from me. Mm-hmm. Underwhelmed. But he was totally serious. Mm-hmm. I was like, wow. You are choosing to say in our last five minutes. Of 12 weeks of being together where I cried and laughed and was angry and vulnerable that I underwhelmed you. That felt like I, like I, I loved it because I thought no one's ever gonna say this to me again because it's so bold. Mm-hmm. And personal. Mm-hmm. And it's like kind of the worst feedback I could get. At the end of something, I'm trying to be a good student. I'm trying to be a good member to be like, you are a mediocre in general. Just like, can I live with that? So it amused me and it makes me smile when I think of it, but it was, you know, it wasn't neutral to get that feedback from him. Mm-hmm. And that's kind of an easy case. Like we've had so much more difficult stuff than someone saying, you're underwhelming. Do you hate this conversation, Sarah? I feel like publish this. Do you hate it? I can't tell. I don't feel like I have a good. Grasp on whether it's making any sense or if it's too slow and too boring. I would say it feels very slow but I also think it's could be good. Uh, yeah. I guess. Mm-hmm. I, I guess I do hate this topic. What is a process group like? I've struggled with it. Oh my goodness. Other conversations we haven't. Vanessa, thank you so much for saying that. I hate it. One of the reasons why I, it's, it's like, um, honestly, I come from a super religious background and so the idea of being asked about it, like, how is your walk with Christ? Mm-hmm. Or something, and I'm just like the question itself annoys me. What am I supposed to say? can I just show you my life? Yeah, but the verbalization of it, it feels like it misses it or something. Yeah. So thankfully people don't ask me that question anymore, but I do have people that say tell me what is a process group, and that is not my favorite way to do it. I almost wanna change topics. Yeah. There's something about the describing of that takes out the fun of it. Yeah. There's like kind of a didactic element that we're supposed to be articulate and succinct and explain well what a process group is. And something about that just doesn't align with the spirit of how we have been having conversations, which are us talking about what we're excited about currently. I agree. And we have a colleague who is really good at this. We should just send her. I know. So instead of us pretending to try to do what she does, everyone should just listen to her podcast, which is Sarah Simpson Time and Other Thieves. She does an episode on the group therapy experience. It's perfect. It's brilliant. Mm-hmm. It is clear. It goes through all of the concepts in an understandable, beautiful way that is not. We are as good at. Yes. Okay. So what I do wanna talk about, wait. Yes. Do we have time? Yes. Because we might wanna delete into your first party. Another thing that is very recent for me is that I found out that there were salsa dancing lessons, like three blocks from my house. And I have a new found love for partner dancing'cause I'm old I guess, and this is what you do and, but it says you have to come with a partner. And I just knew my husband wouldn't wanna do salsa lessons, so I didn't even ask him. I just wrote the teacher and said, my husband doesn't wanna come. Is there somebody who needs a partner so I can go to the beginner? And he said, yeah, there is a man who needs a partner. So I wrote the man and said, I'm thinking about these lessons. You know, I'd be a beginner, but I'd be a quick learn because I grew up doing ballet. Would you be willing to be my partner? And he says yes. You know, he sends me a picture of him, which I really appreciate. That was thoughtful. He said, I think I'm a bit older than you. I think he is too, maybe by 10 years. Um, and then, he said, can you go tomorrow night? And I said, I don't know yet. I'll let you know tomorrow. So yesterday I texted and said, Hey, I can't make it tonight. I'm just gonna wait for the new series to start and you can decide whether you wanna come with me or not. Okay? He didn't reply to my text. He left me a voicemail. He called and asked me if I'm coming I tried calling him back. He didn't answer, so I left him a voicemail and then he texted me and said, are you coming tonight? What is happening? When I said I couldn't come, so I left him a voice memo saying, you probably didn't get my voicemail. This is why I can't come tonight. Sorry to confuse you. He calls me back and says, are you coming tonight? And I'm like, how am I in this situation? This feels so familiar to me to have some old guy not getting the message and asking me if I'm still coming with him, it felt so familiar. So aggravating. How did you feel in response to his continued, like, so where are you annoyed? Like, leave me alone. You already made it abundantly clear that you're not coming. Yeah, and I felt bad, like, oh shoot, I guess I was confusing when you were not confusing. I didn't think I was. I think this is one of your things where you assume the responsibility of, oh, I must have been confusing. Yeah, I think I do that as well. Like, what did I do wrong here to create this dynamic? So how did it end up? Talking on the phone saying, no, I cannot make it tonight. I've texted you, I've voice memoed you, I've voice mailed you. None of which he read clearly. And he said, you should come next week. And I said, I don't know, and he said, no, you should definitely come next week. It'll be so easy for you. So now I feel like, okay, now on my to-do list is reach out to Brandon. Let him know I'm not coming next week. How did I get into this situation? Is this, is this part of your bad mood? Yes, it probably is. I think this is majorly a part of your bad mood because you want to be dancing in a way that is like fun and free and life giving, and instead you're having a text and voicemail exchange. With a man that's not getting it. This is like the worst part of it. You want it to be dancing with someone who's good at dancing. Yeah. Not negotiating poor communication with someone who is, entitled to your presence. Yes. So to me it feels extra bad because if it were just, you're trying to get a dentist appointment and the person keeps misreading your calls, that's. Annoying, but it's not like you've been dying to go to the dentist. Yeah. So just frustrating on a neutral to unpleasant topic versus you're trying to pursue fun things in your life by pursuing salsa, and this is giving you the opposite. Okay. Yeah, we should probably stop but anything else you wanna say? No. Great. So, okay, I'll stop the recording. We have a lot of work to. Thank you so much for listening. If there's something you'd like us to talk about or you're interested in trying one of our groups, please email us at saying the unsaid group@gmail.com.