How to Survive Shame Without Letting It Define You | The Gregory Vetter Podcast

The morning after Greg lost the company, he woke up carrying something heavier than failure.

Shame.

Not simply the belief that he had made the wrong decisions—but the feeling that he had become the failure. That he had let people down. That the promises, responsibilities, and expectations he carried had collapsed with the business.

That distinction matters.

Guilt says, “I did something wrong.”

Shame says, “There is something wrong with me.”

In this episode, Greg and Moe explore the emotional weight of shame, where it comes from, and why it can either become a teacher or quietly destroy the person carrying it.

Greg reflects on the loss of Tessemae’s, the people who depended on him, and the moment he realized that his fear of failure was really a fear of the shame that would follow it. But the conversation goes beyond business.

It examines the relationship between shame and honor.

Can you feel genuine shame if you do not deeply care about your word, your responsibilities, or the people depending on you? Is shame sometimes evidence that you still have a standard? And what happens in a culture where people no longer feel accountable to anything larger than themselves?

Greg and Moe discuss:

• The difference between guilt and shame
• Why failure can feel like a judgment of your identity
• How to process painful emotions without living inside them
• The importance of having a healthy release mechanism
• Why perspective and gratitude make people more resilient
• What sports teach about failure, criticism, and moving to the next play
• Why nobody knows—or cares—as much about your mistakes as you think they do
• The connection between honor, responsibility, and shame
• What it means to keep your word when people depend on you
• And why resilience is built by continuing after life knocks you down

The point is not to suppress shame.

It is to understand what it is trying to tell you.

Feel it. Examine it. Learn from it.

Then pick yourself up.

Because failure may be something that happened to you.

It does not have to become who you are.

🎙️ Watch or listen to the full episode of The Gregory Vetter Podcast.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

It's not fear of failure that you're scared of. It is the fear of shame that comes from the failure. The first time I really felt real shame was after we lost Testie Maze. And I couldn't pull off a miracle to save it. Like I am such a fucking failure. And the difference between guilt and shame is guilt is like I did something wrong. And shame is I am wrong. Greg Vetter Podcast. The concept is shame. And the first time I really heard about shame, because I don't know if I felt it a lot as a young man or really understood what it was. Um I was at a CEO leadership retreat for like four days. You couldn't have your phone. It was from like 6 a.m. till 11 o'clock at night. And they analyze all of your false negative beliefs about yourself. And um what are your greatest fears? And what are your false negative beliefs about yourself that you live with that basically create your belief system that you then live within and make all of all of your decisions within. Shout out to my boy. He goes, you know, it's not fear of failure that you're scared of. It is the fear of shame that comes from the failure.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

So you're feeling like the feeling of man, these motherfuckers are gonna look at me different.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Well, so so then I found this video by Allison Armstrong. She's a writer. She's basically writes about how men and women can communicate better with each other. And the video was really interesting because she said, um, only honorable people can feel shame. Because shame is an indicator of people with honor. And I'm like, what is this woman talking about? And so when you kind of look into what honor is or people that have honor, they're deeply concerned with protecting the people that they love and providing for the people that they care about, or unbelievably committed to the mission at hand, or their family, or the company, or or whatever. Or doing the right thing, doing the right thing. And the shame comes from when you can't live into that honor. So not I did something wrong, but oh my god, I have failed my children by being a good father, or I have failed the company by letting it go down in a fiery blaze. And so the real the first time I really felt real shame was after we lost Tessie Mays. And I couldn't pull off a miracle to save it. And there was no 11th hour, 59th minute, 59th second, you know, I've been holding on the end of my rope longer than anybody. There was no like last second miracle that I had been pulling off for 18 years straight.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

You pulled you pulled everything out, you put everything in your you had though.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Right. And I remember just kind of like sitting in this conference room in Baltimore, sterile, you know, just like white everything, stainless steel, glass, white tables, and just being like, you know, there's still a chance that a miracle can happen. And it didn't happen. And so then the next day you wake up and then you just are like, oh my god. What if that was the miracle? Well, maybe it was. Uh it definitely sent me on a completely different trajectory of my life, and I think the jury's still out on whether or not it was a miracle or not. Okay. I've made the most of it, I've learned a lot from it. I've written many books because of it. There's a podcast because of it. Uh, I look at the world completely differently now, and so in a sense, it probably was a miracle of its own making. But the next day was shame. And well, yeah, that's like right after. Yeah, like, oh my god, I am such a fucking failure. And again, guilt, I guess the difference between guilt and shame is guilt is like I did something wrong, and shame is I am wrong. Like, I am unworthy.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

What's that that that uh quote that your parents or at least I hear my parents used to say, or just people in general, or you ought to be ashamed of yourself. You know what I'm saying? My grandparents. Yeah, so I think in the using it in that terms, you ought to be ashamed of yourself, is when you know what's right, but you do the thing that you know that is not right. And then after that, I feel you be like, you look back and you'd be like, God damn it, I shouldn't have did that. Or you and that's when you feel, I feel as though, because that's sometimes when I felt ashamed. Yeah. Well, I knew it was uh I knew the right thing to do, but somehow I just did the wrong thing, and it made me f feel very bad on on the back end. Which is a great learning lesson.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Yes, right, because you only learn from your failures. I don't know if anybody's ever really learned anything from their wins, because if you win, you think you did everything right because you won. Right. So I I I think the shame side of it and then getting out of that quickly was very important because it if you don't acknowledge that feeling and sit in it and understand why you're feeling it, that can quickly turn into depression.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Right. So how did you what made you acknowledge it and then what made you say, okay, that's what that is? I need to get out of this, or I I started one, I exercise, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:29

I do my daily morning routine every day. But I started writing, which I always write anyway, but I was writing specifically about everything that I had experienced. Why do I feel this way? What happened? What went right? How did it all go wrong? How how do I get out of this immediately? Because again, I think the awareness side is really important, and to not numb it is really important because you know, drinking your sorrows away feels good in the minute and the moment and the hour, but then you feel like a bag of shit the next day. And so I didn't do that. Good. Yeah, and so I said I'm going to write and I'm going to read, and then I'm going to put all of my problems in perspective and historical perspective. What have people done? What how have people failed? How have they picked themselves back up? What did they do to make that as quick as possible? And I remember watching this Ross Perot interview years ago about why he invested in Steve Jobs for his second company that Apple then eventually bought, and then he went back to Apple. And, you know, he got Steve Jobs got fired from Apple. It was very public. I mean, this dude basically invented the personal computer, and this board says, you know, we're going to be focusing on fucking printers and dumb shit. And they fire him. And he goes, This guy didn't cry. He didn't lock himself in a basement. He was out raising money for his next company the next day. And what I know about life is you pick your ass up and you go get it done. Because crying about it's not going to help anybody. That's a waste of time.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

It's a waste of time. But sometimes you need to go, like you said, you need to go through and feel the emotion, but don't let it linger too long.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

You you can let it out. You can cry. You can cuss. You can fucking yell at clouds. You can go hit a heavy bag as hard as you can. Throw a rock at a tree on top of a mountain. Hitting a heavy bag is actually really cool to watch. Um my son got really upset at something involving a sport. I go, you want to go just go hit a heavy bag and just as long as you want, just let it all out. He goes, Yeah. So he put on his boxing gloves and I held the heavy bag, and he is fucking wailing on this thing, dude. And he's crying and he's hitting it and he's just unleashing every ounce of rage he has. And it really didn't last that long. You know, it lasted a couple minutes, maybe, and then it was all out. And it's really interesting because when it's all inside of you, you think it's all consuming, it's gonna take over you forever. And then you go, well, I'm gonna go let it all out. How long is that gonna last? Doesn't last that long. Yeah, he wasn't in there for an hour, he wasn't in there for five days, and then it was a release he needed, and then we moved on. And so I think having a release mechanism and forgiving yourself and accepting it as a learning lesson, and then also kind of reading and consuming information that puts your problems in perspective, that stuff's important because your problems are just yours. Nobody else actually knows or cares. You got that right. Nobody knows and nobody cares. I literally wrote undressed because I don't know, six months later, a year later, we're at a party, and some dude rolls up to me and it's like, dude, I heard you exited that company, and like that's amazing. How did you pull that off? And I'm like, Exited the c yeah, we exited. Motherfucker, we were fucking thrown out the back door on the into a gutter, like the Will Smith was and and I was like, is that what people think? And it it made me angry that they thought I wish I would exit, yeah. It made me angry that people thought that there was some celebration. And you know, my dad always says, leave things better than when you found them, lead by example. And um, and so I was like, I need to document this journey and what happened, and hopefully it's a it's a learning tool for people. So, anyway, that all really kind of helped me quickly get out of whatever funk I was in for a day, two days, three days. It pops back in every now and again, almost like some version of post-traumatic stress where there's like a vision that pops into my head of you know, one of those investors in a board meeting and a horrible decision, and you just go, Fuck man, how did that happen?

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Yeah, that's just one of those fucks that come out of nowhere, like fuck, fuck, dude. And then you're like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Yeah, you shake it off, you you know, you write down everything you're grateful for and you move on. But it the shame part is interesting because if you look at who I am and who my brothers are, we always use this phrase water off a duck's back. There's not many things that can slow me down. There are not many obstacles that's just built in that can come my way that I can't quickly think through and overcome. I mean, and I've seen a lot of them, and a lot of them do not scare me. I would say 99.999% of them I'm almost immune to at this point in terms of business obstacles. You got great poise under pressure. I do. Yeah, and that's just seasoning, man. You know, it reminds me of that story of Ulysses S. Grant, and they're painting uh they're gonna take a portrait of him and a window or a light, a giant light bulb above him breaks, and all the glass falls all around him, and he did not move. And he just sat there and waited for them to take the photo, and there was glass everywhere. Didn't move, didn't blink because he had been sitting on a horse on the front lines of war, the frickin' civil war for God knows how long. So some glass is nothing to that dude, right? But it's that seasoning of I mean, I know how it works, I have a general understanding of human behavior, and it's water off a duck's back, man. Yeah, it's it's poise.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

I think that's uh, you know, not to deviate, but just when I be doing artwork or when I was doing artwork with the airbrush, and I airbrush something, and then the line don't go in the right place where it might be. Yeah. And rather than starting all over, I gotta learn how to fix it because I'm not gonna do this whole portrait airbrush starting over. So now I have to learn how to blend it in and make it smooth, and and no one's gonna notice but me. Yeah, you know, because I know that was a mistake, but I made it work. And that's the most thing about it is just making it work. You just gotta make it work. I mean, what else you gonna do?

SPEAKER_00 16:05

You gotta make it work, and again, I think the other part that's interesting is nobody knows and nobody cares. But you think everybody knows, yeah, and everybody cares. Everybody cares, yes, and you walk around like you got a scarlet letter, and everybody is screaming like Game of Thrones, shame, shame. Could that be connected to ego? Yeah, of course. Of course, it's some version of ego and could you think you I'm I'm Maurice Taylor.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

I can't, I can't do this. Right. I can't I can't let somebody see me like this.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Yeah, well, there's definitely that. That definitely pops in. I think for me though, it was more I was really concerned and I was upset at myself for letting so many people down because I looked at all of the series of decisions, whether they were in my control or out of my control, that had led up to that point. And that's just a tough pill to swallow.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

But did any of those people who you were thinking about come to you like, fuck you, Greg? Some did. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Some did.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

You just ruined my whole time.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

I know. Yeah, no, because it was funny. I was like telling myself that I'm like, I'm probably just making this all up in my head. And I wrote a bunch of letters to people basically thanking them for being a part of the journey, apologizing for how it happened, etc. etc. No response. Like basically, like, go fuck yourself. And I was like, wow, okay. And then I did get a couple um fuckback fuck you, you motherfucker.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

I was like, That's because they they probably had money invested too and thought they were they had assumptions that they were gonna get.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Well, you know what was interesting about the people that really fucking cussed me out. It was like obviously they already didn't like me.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

So why would they invest in the company?

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Because they had alternative motives? Who knows? But they didn't even have that much. It was like the people that were cussing me out like had like no money in it at all. They just kind of used the moment to cuss me out. And I was like, okay, well, alright.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

That goes back to something I was looking at, like people who are your clients, the people who want to pay the less, have the most problems, slow most problems, most things to say, the most. Can you put that there? Can you move this here? I don't know about that, but but the people who've given you, hey Mo, we need you to design a logo, we got 500,000. We give you half now, we give you the other half when you're done. Yep. And you don't hear from them because they're gonna pay you that money because they automatically think Well, you're the guy, they chose you. He's he knows what he's doing. We've seen his work, let him work. 100%. Dude, well, and that's that is universally true. So, yeah, the people who gave you the the least amount of money is like probably one to feel like, oh yeah, I got money in this company. This is part of my company. Yes, and the other people with the much money, like, I'm gonna throw that money over here, I'm gonna see what that do. Yep, basically. And then I'm gonna I'm already working on this, but I have this money here. Let me put that over there, see what he can do.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

So, um, but going back to this concept of water off a duck's back, I think that is probably one of the most important mindsets to have when you're trying to do anything, especially sports. I mean, not to get into a sport uh situation. We love sports at this podcast. Love it. I mean, it's the greatest teacher of all teachers because it's immediate feedback, there's immediate pain, there's a there's immediate success, there's immediate defeat. You know, you got people yelling at you, which doesn't happen that much anymore in school or church or anywhere else. Everybody's a fucking winner, allegedly. Them football coaches, boy, back when I was on football, you getting dug into. I remember I was in college and it was halftime, and I had a fucking coach two inches from my face, screaming as loud as he could, spitting all over my face, just calling me a motherfucker, because I was a captain at the time, and he just was using me. I just sat there, stared right at him, took it. That's what you do, and then you know what's funny? You turned up. And and people were like, Oh my god, Greg, are you okay? I'm like, Yeah, I'm fucking fine. That dude called me later on that night and he's like, hey man, you know I just had to use you as the person to yell at, and I only did that because I know you can take it. And I was like, Yeah, that's fine. He goes, Do you need to talk about it anymore? I go, nope, I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

That's how we roll, baby. Right? You have to take that. People, yeah, people might not, you know, can take getting yelled at. Well, nobody can now. If you go in the military, they're gonna yell at you.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

They're gonna fucking yell at you. You got all college sports, but again, it goes back to the mental side and the resilience side, and just kind of the next player up or the next play or the water off a duck's. Back. It's just like you've got to stay focused on what you're there to do. And you have to keep adjusting and you have to keep focusing and you have to just keep moving forward. Because if everybody quit every time someone yelled at them or a little obstacle popped up in their life, I mean, you're not going to get anything done. You're not going to do nothing. Well, and I just wrote a Substack article on um yellow lights. Yellow traffic lights. Some people stop at yellow traffic lights. Some people floor it and go through. I'm a floor it go through guy. I've been doing that all week. If you don't floor it and go through, you have a very, very low chance of hitting the next green light that's right in front of you.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Then sometimes you get through in the next one, hits yellow, and then before you can get through it, it hits red. Sometimes that's called orange.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

That is what I call it's orange.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Okay, so that's like the millisecond between.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

That's orange.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

That's orange. You're still going. I'm going. Right. Uh, I don't go through red, I go through orange. Okay. But it is one of these things where you have to keep going because your journey, sometimes it's all green. Those times I can count. A lot of times it's all red, and those suck. But if they're all yellows, you got an option. You can go and keep looking forward for green, or you can be like that 80-year-old in a fucking Buick, who the minute it goes from green to yellow, they slam on their brakes and they're waiting at a yellow light. Well, I mean, but they're 80, they already lived a life. They got nothing but uh that's why I would be careful. Well, that isn't they don't have nothing but time. Their time's running out. I know, but they I'd be cruising through those things if I was there.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

They uh they did everything. I feel that the old people who stopped at the yellow lights, they did everything they wanted to do in life. I guess they got nowhere to be. They don't have nowhere to be. They're like, yeah, I'm just gonna I'm on a drive. They're just going to the grocery store for nothing. Yep. Going to get coffee, sit out front, dunking donuts, on back the pickup truck, and talk to their friends that's on the other side of the bed. Let's get it.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

It's 7 a.m. in the morning. Let's get it. Let's go. But yeah, bringing it back to um shame, honor, water off a duck's back. There's also one of my favorite videos that I show all my kids, and it's the scene in Rocky, not the first one, but um literally it's titled Rocky. It's like the when he's old and his son's uh investment banker. Um I haven't seen that one. Oh, it's one of the great greatest motivational speeches of all time. His son's really mad at him because he's gonna fight again. And he's bitching at him, and he says, Every time they see me, they think of you. And he's bitching about how his dad's gonna embarrass him because he's gonna be fighting in his late 50s or whatever. And Rocky goes, I'm gonna tell you something that you already know. And it's basically life is gonna beat you down and it is gonna keep you there if you let it.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Oh, yeah. No, I've seen that scene because it's a popular scene.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

It's one of the best scenes of all time. And anytime I get a little down in the dumps, you popping away, I watch that because there has never been a more accurate description of life and what it takes, and that's how winners are made. Because life is gonna knock you down and it's gonna keep you there, and nobody hits harder than life. But we have this weird kind of preconceived notion that life is rainbows and sunshine and butterflies.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Because uh that's what people say, and that's what we're experiencing somewhat through social media. We see that.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

I think life's too easy right now, right? That beautiful quote of hard times make tough men, tough men make easy times, easy times make weak men, weak men make tough times or hard times, yeah, and then everything and the cycle repeats, and so generally speaking, right now, I've I feel like if you look at college and younger, you got some weak people because they've generally had it very easy. Because maybe we're their parents and we well, we're too young to be their parents, but college.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Well, I got some friends, but kids of college.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

But you know, I would say for us, I I don't know if I would say that we had it very easy, you know, like we were technically xenials, which is we grew up without cell phones or technology. Yeah, cell phones didn't come out till I was in high school for the most part.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

Yeah, I had at least for our age group. Now they had them long ass, big ass cell phones in the 80s.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

No, but I'm talking about how people use that shit. Yeah. Yeah. And we just we we were a different yeah, we was definitely school, right? Like 9-11 happened, my freshman year in college. Then we're like, dudes are fucking going to war off top. Then we had the housing collapse in the right when I got out of college, 2008. Yep. Well, it was that whole started in like oh six, seven, and then it all kind of went down in 08. Then that whole shit show happened. Yeah, dude. Then we had then kind of things rebounded a little bit. Um, and then we had fucking COVID. Yeah, it's kind of thing. Then we had and then we had the great supply chain crisis, right? And it's like we're just out here, no, nobody had a harder time than if you were born in like 1900. If you look at that 1900 to that hundred-year span, I read something about that shit. If you were born in 1900, the wars that you would have been a part of as a person. That was all the big wars, dude. You had World War One, then fucking World War II. I mean, and then just like kept fucking going. They had the Great Depression, and it's crazy. My obviously, my great-grandmother lived that shit. My grandfather was born the day the stock market collapsed, October 29th, 1929. Donald McDonald, my boy, Donnie Blue Eyes. Um, but he was like the happiest motherfucker ever because he was so grateful when the times were good. Because he lived through he lived through everything. Dude, it was crazy. So I I think everything going on right now is just like a total lack of perspective and uh and a lack of gratitude. We lost uh sight of we have no perspective. Yeah, we're not resilient. Everybody's weak, everybody complains. Complaining is celebrated. There actually is no shame because there's no honor to bring it full circle. Right? Nobody cares that deeply about anything important shit, like providing for your family, protecting your family, building something of substance, leading by example. At every turn, somebody takes the easy way out and fucks everybody. And like there is no shame because there is no honor, which I find very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Yeah. Because everybody for themselves for the most part, to the nth degree, yeah. It was like, okay, would they do that for me? Or you know, would they well and you you learn pretty quick, but if you got a tight-knit group of people who you can find that, and I know they say is it's it's a rarity now.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Well, even a tight-knit group, dude, you think shit's tight-knit until you really get into a pickle. And then you see how fucking tight knit it is. Because it's tight knit to a certain degree. But it's not tight knit when the shit hits the fan for real. Right. Then you see, all right, I thought I had 10 dudes I can rely on. I got like three. Maybe. A dog. Who's up? Right. Oh, yeah, I gotta be somewhere. You're like, oh, okay. Alright.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Then you just don't sweat it.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

You'd be like, all right, cool. Well, and then they just go on a different list, right? Like, this is my list. And again, there's not many people on it.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

You gotta do it, eh? As my father say, You gotta do what you gotta do, baby. You gotta get it done.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

You do have to get it done. So that's what I got on shame. That's what I got on honor. Shame and honor.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

So to bring it full circle. Yeah, to bring it full circle. When you do you believe you need honor, you only have uh feel shame if you have honor? Do you believe that? Because you said you found that interesting. So what made you when you seen that insert or whatever from the talk that the lady did? Yeah, and she said uh about that when I was listening to it or watching you listen to it, your eyes opened up like Yeah. Yeah, so so you can't.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

I just never I've never seen those two uh connected like that. Okay, but now you probably can see like now that you look in a deep like Yeah, well, it it fully explains why that feeling happens. Cause you go, oh yeah. Cause you experience yeah, you experience it. Okay. Because you go, oh, got it. Because it really is only in those categories where you like deeply, deeply believe, or you really are trying to provide, or you feel that you are responsible for this group of people and their livelihood or their success or whatever, that's the only time when that goes south, or you can't live into your promises. Because again, if you're if you have character and you're a man of honor, man of your word, you're a man of your word, then that's a big fucking deal. Yeah, you know, and again, that's something my dad told me about you know, you give somebody your handshake, man, like that's a big deal. That's man, that's man rule, baby. It is, and I don't know how many people live by that man rule anymore. Very few, very few.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

Only only some some OGs who was raised up like that. They they live by that. Like, look. I said, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it. Right. Don't keep on asking me, I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Which I don't think a lot of people do, man. And and that's again when things kind of get out beyond your control, and you can't live into that promise to whatever it is, that is where you know, the concept of I did something wrong, guilt versus shame, I'm wrong. I have done wrong.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

I can see that, but um, I guess it would be more of if the person who you may have promised it to I'm pretty sure they would see something like, okay, man, we've been grinding.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Well, you're reason you're a reasonable human. Yeah, sometimes I may be too reasonable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

And I don't my friend tells me that sometimes. He said, Man, you just don't be seeing shit, man. You just out here. That's why you're so happy. Like, you just out here doing shit. That's why you're happy. You're like, well, but then I look back, I sit at home sometimes and think, like, maybe I don't be seeing shit. Yeah, that was a little fucked up with him.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

I do actually, you know, I'll send you videos of random shit. You're like, man, I don't be paying attention to that shit. And then you'll come back like two days later, like, hey, I researched that a little bit. That was fucked up.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Yeah, because sometimes once you send me a video, and then I watch that video, and then I just start scrolling, and then something else will come up about and then that video like, oh shit. This was talking to me about that. Yes. Even if I, you know, even if it's just in my message, in my regular scroll algorithm, it'll start coming up. I'm like, oh man. That's funny. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

All right. Well, that's what I got. You got anything else? Yep. I thought that was that was pretty good. Interesting. Greg Vetter Podcast, Maurice Taylor in the house, Holly Boy.