Self Defence for Women - Live an Empowered Life

Gaslighting, Red Flags & Toxic People—What You NEED to Know

• Julie Waite & Dene Josham • Season 1 • Episode 4

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Are you feeling manipulated, emotionally drained, or constantly second-guessing yourself? You may be dealing with gaslighting or a toxic relationship.

In this episode, Julie Waite, women's safety advocate, and Dene Josham, self defence instructor and former celebrity bodyguard, expose the red flags of emotional abuse — from guilt-tripping to love bombing — and explain how emotional self-defence is just as vital as physical skills.

Learn how to spot manipulation early, reclaim your voice, and build the boundaries you need to protect your emotional space.

“Emotional self-defence is about recognising your worth — and protecting it without apology.” – Julie Waite

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Julie Waite (00:00)

What would you do if someone kept pushing your boundaries, ignoring your no, or making you feel uncomfortable every time you saw them? What if they weren't a stranger on the street, but someone you knew, a partner, a friend, or a family member? When we asked our followers on social media what topics they wanted us to cover next, one stood out above all the rest, handling toxic relationships. Whether it's a partner who plays mind games, a colleague who undermines you, a friend who drains your energy,

 

Knowing how to handle these situations is crucial to protecting your confidence and wellbeing. Today's episode is the first in a three-part series on emotional self defence. Over the next few episodes, we'll dive deep into recognising manipulation and control, how to set boundaries that stick, and how to develop the resilience to walk away from people that don't respect you. The truth is toxic people don't always start out that way. They often work their way into your life slowly.

 

testing your limits, making you second guess yourself. Before you know it, you feel stuck, unsure how to set boundaries, how to walk away, or even if the problem is really as bad as it seems. Today we're breaking it down. How do you recognise toxic behaviour before it takes hold? What makes some people push boundaries while others respect them? And most importantly, what can you do to reclaim your power and protect your peace? Welcome to Self Defence for Women, Live an Empowered Life.

 

the podcast that helps you stay safe, feel strong and take control physically, emotionally and mentally. I'm Julie Waite alongside me, self defence expert, Dene Josham, former bodyguard of Angelina Jolie, Russell Crowe and Brad Pitt. Together we'll unpack the psychology of toxic behavior, how to respond and how to control your own emotional space. So Dene, when most people think about self defence,

 

they quite often think about the physical aspects. But when was it that you realised that emotional self defence was just as important, if not more so, for personal safety?

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (02:07)

probably only the last sort of five, six years, to be honest. It's never been on my radar and then certain things happen and you sort of revalue things and yeah, it's massive, isn't it? And it's one of those ones that's so unseen that is probably a lot more common than we realize. And when you start looking at it and the people around us and how they interact with us and how we respond or how they respond, yeah, it's massive.

 

Julie Waite (02:32)

is I've got a few statistics here that might be surprising. It says that one in three people experience some form of emotional abuse in relationships. Gaslighting is one of the most common emotional abuse tactics, yet most victims don't realise it's happening until after significant damage is done. actually statistics that suggest that emotional abuse can be more damaging than physical abuse.

 

with a 2022 study showing that verbal and psychological abuse leads to longer lasting trauma than physical violence, which is quite shocking actually.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (03:13)

Yeah, I know one statistic. Every week three women commit suicide. And I know that relates to domestic abuse, domestic violence, but also emotional abuse as well, isn't it? So that's got to play a big factor in that, which is shocking.

 

Julie Waite (03:30)

we hear the word gaslighting these days, that's not something we ever heard of when we were younger, to go through like what that is so that people can start to recognise if that's happening in their life. how do you understand gaslighting?

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (03:48)

Yeah, well from my experience and I've shared that before about being in abusive relationship and how that affected me to the point of pushing me to suicidal thoughts and that reaching out for help. And when for me, because I cared for that person and your reality, they skewer that or they put their spin on it. And, you know, sometimes over time, you kind of don't remember the details as much. And then when people are very positive and very sort of

 

forceful and confident in what actually happened, but it's not the reality because they put their spin on it to manipulate for their own reasons, for their own gains. And then for me, just made me doubt what had actually gone on to look at it go, maybe I've got that wrong because they're so confident in what was done and everything. And I'm like, then that just questions me. Yeah, questions yourself.

 

Julie Waite (04:35)

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

So they'll be saying things like, that never happened or you're too sensitive or that's not, you know, making you kind of doubt whether you, whether that was what actually happened. Yeah. Yeah. You're overreacting, trying to make you kind of question in your own mind the version of events that's happening around you. So.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (04:47)

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah, that's not what I meant is a big one. Yeah.

 

Julie Waite (05:09)

It could be things like boss at work, criticising your work, but as a joke. then kind of making you, know, people do things in like a joking way, don't they? And then they pretend that you're overreacting, that it's not a big deal, it's you being sensitive to it.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (05:32)

Yeah, definitely.

 

Julie Waite (05:34)

It could also be someone putting you down, friend putting you down in front of other people, but then saying that they're just teasing or they're just messing around. That's another one.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (05:46)

Yeah, yeah,

 

it's just a joke. Just having a bit of fun. Yeah.

 

Julie Waite (05:50)

Yeah,

 

but it's not. I think if something is bothering you, it's... If the other person is saying it's a joke, you're being sensitive, whatever, if it's bothering you, then to me, that's a big enough reason to take it seriously.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (06:08)

I think also as well somebody's is that then you're in your right with your boundaries to turn and say well, okay, that's what you think and but this is how I've been this is for me that wasn't a joke. So could you please stop that? Can you not say that in the future? So you actually highlight it and there's no gray area. So they can say, you're too sensitive and you can turn so well, actually, I don't like that. I didn't what you said offended me upset me. Can you not do it again? And you kind of hope that if you're a good human being

 

Julie Waite (06:24)

Yeah.

 

Hmm.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (06:35)

you would take that on board, register that and never do that again. Cause somebody's turned around and said, well, that's upsetting me. And I'm like, okay, well I'm your friend, I'm whoever your partner. Then I won't and said that again.

 

Julie Waite (06:45)

Other types of emotional attacks if you call them that are guilt tripping, that's something and these can be like it might be partners, family, friends, so it might be like a relative guilt tripping you like after everything I've done for you or if you really loved me you would do this or you wouldn't say that after everything I've done you know after all the ways that I've helped you that's...

 

That's quite a big one, using guilt and twisting things around on people.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (07:19)

Yeah,

 

it's also, you you do things for people you love and care for, not out of keeping a score and go, well, I've helped you twice, you've got to help me now. It's like you do it because you're with that person, you love them or a family member or friend. It's not a keeping score game. So to bring that all back up, you go, really?

 

Julie Waite (07:26)

you

 

Yeah. Passive aggressiveness as well is one that I think can go unnoticed. like maybe like some backhanded compliments or silent treatment. Again, that's something that's quite, it's quite a nasty tactic that people use given the silent treatment until.

 

you back down or say sorry or do what they want to do because it's just too uncomfortable and sometimes people will make this go on for days on end and that is a form of control and abuse in its own right giving someone the silent treatment like that.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (08:16)

Yeah, massive manipulation because whatever that would be and somebody suddenly goes silent on you, then it makes it really awkward, it? You're that treading on eggshells, isn't it? if I do this, someone going silent on you. Yeah, it's not nice. It doesn't create a nicer atmosphere to live in or be around that person And I'm sure most people experience that.

 

Julie Waite (08:38)

Yeah. And then as well, you've got manipulation. So trying to control things financially or making threats. They could be like low, very low level threats that then might start to escalate. Love bombing as well is something that you hear talked about these days. And that's when you're in the start of a relationship and someone is being very over the top in terms of

 

sending flowers, chocolates, declaring how much they love you, and that quite often can be a sign that maybe the person's a narcissist and that they're trying to control the relationship and move things along lot faster than it should move along, You know, obviously you want some excitement and romance and whatever at the beginning of a relationship, but...

 

If you start to question it or if it seems too much, if you get that weird feeling then that's a red flag really that someone might be trying to manipulate you into a relationship.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (09:46)

Yeah, it can be overwhelming too much kind of it's like, yeah, of course it's a new, if it's a new relationship, it's exciting, everything like that, but you've got to look at it. How does that impact your life as well? You know, if you can't go through your day without your phone ping in every 20 minutes, then potentially isn't healthy. And then you got to ask the question, you know, is that, you know, is that too much?

 

And also I've seen people use children as well, you know, like an indirect way as well for that kind of quiet silent treatment or saying something to another family member and cause that makes us feel guilty I used to get a bit going out for drinks with mates.

 

you getting teased, you're not coming out again or I'm like no I'm busy or you go out and you don't want to drink or what's matter with you aren't you drinking you know or the pressure of like aren't you a man or you know because you don't want to drink and it's like no I just don't want to have a drink or that's not my thing peer pressure massive as well

 

Julie Waite (10:33)

Hmm.

 

Yeah. And I think if you're in a new relationship as well, think pay attention to those kind of first dates where are they asking questions about you? Are they getting to know you or is it all about them? Is it like stories that they're telling about their life? Are they telling lots of stories about how hard done by they are, how they're a victim, how someone has done other things to them? And those kind of things can be red flags as well.

 

because it should be like a mutual conversation where you're finding out about each other. But if you're kind of getting told these stories, might be kind of being told stories of, or their success and where they've been and what they've done and what they've achieved to try and impress you. Or they might be telling stories of some horrible things that's happened to them to try and get you to feel sorry for them. So there's lots of different kind of tactics that people use, I think. It's just being aware of them.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (11:38)

Yeah, I think you've got to look at it and trust your instincts as well. And I always think, how do people treat other people? like in hotel staff, you know, the people that service a room, I would treat them the same as I would talk to the manager because they're is equally as important, they're human being and you you treat everybody equally. So how did they interact with people around them?

 

you what they say about old ex partners and things like that. You know, I know things happen and you know, people fall out, but it's like, how do they communicate about past stuff and actually what's going on around them and you know, their general view on the world, suppose as well.

 

Julie Waite (12:12)

Yeah. And why do you think it is that people struggle to defend themselves emotionally or struggle to handle these toxic relationships? Because we all have them and, you know, anyone you talk to is probably dealing with several people in their life that they're having difficulties with or, these people that you meet and you feel drained of energy when you meet them.

 

or a colleague you see at work and you just don't want to get cornered and have a chat with them. We've all been there, the relative that makes you feel awful every time you're with them. We all have them. We all have these people in our lives. And yes, if it's relatives or whatever, then to a certain extent, you might have to deal with them or work. You maybe can't get rid of them. But what do you think it is that stops people from?

 

defending themselves emotionally.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (13:10)

few things I think I mean social conditioning is a big one and also

 

conflict, you know, even that verbal conflict, or can you stop doing that depending on who the person is good person. Oh, yeah, sorry. really sorry. I won't do that again. Thank you for telling me. Yeah, you're in your right to say that. But it's a conflict element, isn't it? You know, when we've done workshops and talk to people and it's that uncomfortable, actually standing, you know, in your ground, standing your barriers and making them clear because chances are you might get pushed back. And that's might be the other person.

 

Julie Waite (13:30)

Yeah.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (13:45)

being defensive because you've suddenly said something that that's not appropriate for you and the other person might feel bad when you kind of hope they change their way. A lot of social expectations and things like say, know, not rocking the boat, especially like within a work element or situation and also people in them so-called perceived positions of power because if they're a boss the fear of, if I

 

if I stand my ground and set my boundary out, how does that affect me? Cause they might go, you know, who's he, who's she kind of, who are of thing. So there's a lot of elements to it that yeah, make us potentially not set boundaries because of we're worried about the conflict,

 

Julie Waite (14:25)

I think for women as well, it's women even more so than men are socially conditioned to be nice and polite and if you are as a woman if you then like particularly in a workplace if you then stand up for yourself or say to someone you know don't talk to me like that or I don't I want to be treated differently you then get a reputation of being

 

a bitch or bossy or grumpy, you're supposed to just go along with it. And I've had a lot in my career of these men, often in positions of power, but also just, you know, co-workers on a similar level to you, just like, just really pushing it with the way that they talk to you, the way they treat you.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (14:58)

Yeah.

 

Julie Waite (15:19)

and you're just kind of supposed to get on with it and deal with it. And if you do speak back or stand up for yourself, you then considered arsey or difficult or whatever it is. And I think that needs to change. And I think it's changing a bit, but it's still a long way to go. And I know myself, when I've stood up for myself in workplaces, there has been a big conflict. All hell's broken loose. like, you know, I've mentioned before about...

 

situation where I was sexually harassed in a workplace and I had to leave because they couldn't, instead of just saying oh I'm sorry I didn't realise that's what, how it was making you feel when I asked to be treated a different way, was all, it was those exact words, it was like you're being too sensitive, it's you, you know, other people haven't bothered, you're this, you're that and it's all your fault and now it's really awkward because of you so.

 

think people are right maybe to feel like if they do stand up for themselves there will be a conflict because there probably will because these people that are doing it don't want to accept that they've done anything wrong and you're not going to be able to change them. You can't change that other person but you can stand up for yourself and you just have to accept that there will be some conflict and you have to deal with that and hope the company that you're in, if it's a workplace, have got some HR.

 

policies and systems where you can get some support. Where I was, there was no HR, it's a small company. So you may have to think about whether you want to still be in that environment. You know you can't change them. You've done what you can to stand your peace. You may need to walk away. And this could be from a workplace, it could be from a relationship, it could be from a friend, a family member. You don't owe anyone.

 

to kind of keep being abused and made to feel uncomfortable if you have said how you want to be treated and they're not listening to that.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (17:26)

I think as well taking great strength from that if you know, it's difficult isn't it because there's a lot of elements to this, you know, if you've got a job and you, you know, you need the money and understand why certain people will have to or might choose that way. but standing strong in yourself, you know, you've taken a stand and if you in not saying there's a right or wrong, you have to do what's right for you. But also if you can identify that if they're a toxic person and they don't change their way and you've highlighted it or you haven't because you

 

Julie Waite (17:33)

Yeah, of course, yeah.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (17:55)

don't want any conflict in that kind of in that respective, then you know what you're dealing with. You know, like I always say, if you highlight it to potentially a toxic person and they don't change their way, then even if you can't remove yourself from that relationship or distance yourself from that person, least you know, psychologically in your head, that person's toxic. They're not reasonable. They're narcissistic or whatever that is.

 

Julie Waite (18:02)

Yeah, yeah.

 

Mm.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (18:21)

then when you're dealing with them, your head's in a better place because you know what you're dealing with rather than that self question because we all want the least path of least resistance because that's the human thing, it? Going along the easiest path. And to stand up for yourself is probably the hardest thing because there's going to be some resistance.

 

Julie Waite (18:26)

Yeah.

 

Mm.

 

Yeah.

 

At least if you can recognise some of these tactics that people use, can then at the very least you can distance yourself from them and deal with them in a way that minimises interactions and you may just have to keep on having to stand up for yourself each time they do something, highlight everything that they say. Certainly if you're in a workplace environment you can be making a note of everything they say and keeping a record of everything.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (19:08)

Yeah, I think that's another good thing as well, isn't it? Because by noting it down as not as it happened, but after the event, close after the event, then you it's all fresh in your head. You can rather than you look back and then somebody says, no, I didn't say that. Yeah. And you go, well, actually I wrote it down 10 minutes, 10, yeah, 10 minutes after I made some notes because it really bothered me. And I thought, you know, I want to keep note of that. Then you don't question yourself. I think from my experience, that's what happened with me is like, and then I didn't quite recall what was said.

 

Julie Waite (19:21)

Yeah, yeah. If you've got a list of everything.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (19:38)

how it was said and then you sort of gets a bit blurry and you sort of go, they're so confident in it. They, you know, they must, I must have got it wrong. And also how we justify things for the people as well.

 

Julie Waite (19:47)

Yeah, yeah.

 

think we do make excuses for people. One, because if you're a nice, good person, you want to believe and see the good in people. And then two, because if you don't make excuses for them, it means you have to deal with it. And I think that's difficult too. So I think the other thing that stops people is not even recognising that...

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (19:59)

Yeah.

 

Julie Waite (20:15)

you're being put down or manipulated experiencing gaslighting or whatever because if you're not aware of it or it's quite low level, it kind of creeps in. And I think some people don't recognise that until it's then escalated and like you're left in a situation where you were in a previous relationship questioning

 

your own reality because it's just become so commonplace that you don't know whether it's day or night.

 

Dene - Streetwise Defence (20:44)

Yeah, and people you've got to realize people change, you know, people do change over time. And that's that's just keeping it real. And it's like, okay, this person might have changed over a six months a year, you know, and then suddenly gone from a loving caring relationship or friendship or whatever. And that's changed. And I've stepped away from people in my life, you know, from years ago, because looking at it, trying to take some of my own medicine is, you know,

 

there was no joy, was no benefit,

 

it was just painful and hard work and then like, okay, originally went from a great person to whatever's happened to them internally, externally, what's gone on with them. I just didn't want to be around them people because it was just hard work and I didn't enjoy spending the time with them or anything, know, so I just sort of distanced myself from them, unfortunately.

 

Julie Waite (21:36)

Yeah, it's difficult. I think the first step for anyone really in all of this is awareness. And once you recognise that emotional attacks happen and you know about things like gaslighting, guilt tripping, manipulation, then what you do in that is you're taking away the power over you because you can see right through them.

 

So I think that that's why we wanted to discuss this today and hopefully open people's eyes to some of the tactics that people use in these situations. Obviously, recognising them is one thing, but it's then what you do about it. So in the next episode, we're going to look at boundaries and how to set boundaries and how to do that without feeling guilty. So if you've ever struggled to say no to people in your life,

 

Tune into the next episode and we will look at that