NextGen on Elevate Springfield with Ellie Ferriell: Objectivity vs Subjectivity in Media

Summary

In this episode, Ellie and Robert explore the complex relationship between subjectivity and objectivity in art and media. They discuss the importance of standards in critiquing art, the role of enjoyability, and the elitism that can arise in media consumption. Through various examples, they emphasize the need to separate personal enjoyment from objective quality, ultimately advocating for a more honest and open dialogue about art and media.

Takeaways

• Art is subjective, but there are objective standards.
• You can't improve without standards in place.
• Enjoyability does not equate to quality.
• Critics play a role in establishing standards.
• Elitism can hinder honest discussions about media.
• Personal enjoyment can exist in poorly made art.
• Critical reading helps articulate preferences.
• Standards of excellence exist in all fields.
• Separating personal taste from quality is essential.
• Honesty in critique fosters better recommendations.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Elevate Springfield, where we will dive into strategies and stories that help you rise to your full potential. Each episode, we'll talk about how you can take intentional steps to elevate your life and your business while making a meaningful impact on those around you. Along the way, we're going to bring in the change makers from our community that are already elevating. We'll bring the actionable strategies, you bring the discipline and follow through, and together, we can elevate Springfield. Alright, let's go, y'all. Time to 10X.

SPEAKER_04 0:35

Hey everyone, welcome to Next Gen on Elevate Springfield. I'm Ellie and I'm here with my dad Robert.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Together, we're talking about what really matters to teens today. From school and skills to pressure, purpose, and possibilities. We'll share honest conversations, practical strategies teens can actually use, and a little dad-daughter debate.

SPEAKER_04 0:56

This is about listening, learning, and growing. Together, let's elevate the next generation.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

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SPEAKER_03 1:48

Hello and welcome back to NextGen on Elevate Springfield. I'm Ellie and I'm here with my dad.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Hi, Ellie.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

Hi.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

How's it going today?

SPEAKER_03 1:56

Good, because I have coffee just like you.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Hey, we matched today, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

And I think this is very, um, I'm glitching. I think this is very, um, what's the word? Now I know. I think this is very fitting for our topic today.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Yeah, no, we waded through the uh candy after the after the Patty St. Patty's Day parade as we're recording this. The St. Patrick's Day Parade got over just not too long ago. So still the aftermath of the of the parade in the streets.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

We got in though. We made it in.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

Eventually, after some hardships.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

So no, the coffee's good. Got uh shout out to Schliees. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

If you're wondering, which I'm sure you were all wondering about my coffee order, because that's like at the forefront of your minds, obviously. Um, I got a 12-ounce vanilla latte with oat milk.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

You think people were ra were wondering?

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Yes. Maybe.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

So what are we talking about today?

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Well, for a little background, um, I've always been like interested in analyzing media and art. And I've always been confused, like in my brain, I've always been like, okay, I feel like this is objectively bad. But, you know, all art is subjective, so it's like I can't tell if I'm just being pretentious about it, and I'm like, okay, this is my opinion that it's bad, but it it's just everything's subjective, you know. But I don't know, I've always just been confused about that. Um, because deep down I'm like, this is really bad. I'm like, I mean, it can't isn't there some form of objectivity in art at all? And I actually recently, this morning, watched a YouTube video on this, and it kind of opened up my horizons more. And I think it's really important. I think it really helped make erupt my brain fog on that topic. And I it really helped me because I really like that sort of thing. So it's like to have that in my brain is just like, yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

So how so? What was the video about?

SPEAKER_03 4:00

Um, I think the video title was Why Can't Anyone Agree on What a Good Book Is was basically the general gist of it. And the video went on to say, like one of the quotes in it, but I cannot remember for the life of me who the person was. But some guy had said that you can't get better at something if there was no standards for that thing to begin with, which I think is very interesting because it's like, how can you get better at writing if there's no standard for good writing or bad writing? How can you get better at it if there's nothing there that is good or is bad? And I think I mentioned this in another one of our podcasts, where I was like, what's the point of movie critics then? If not if everything is subjective, what is the point? What is the point of the rotten tomato score or this score or whatever? Or the movie critics who watch movies before they come out. What's the point of their job if every single thing is subjective? The video also touched on elitism and how, you know, a lot of people think that, oh, well, if I read classics, I'm better than everybody else. If I read objectively good literature or watch good movies, I'm better than everybody else. And it's not that either. Like there, it's two sides of it, you know, because it's like on one hand, when I'm saying this, it could sound like, oh, well, you can't, like, you just sound like elitists, like you think that you're that these things are better. And I also the video had also mentioned that it's interesting because for something to be objectively good, that equals enjoyability. If enjoyability is even a word, I don't know, I've never used that word before, but I'm just said it. So I guess it is now.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

It makes sense, even if it's not a word, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 5:39

Yeah, but I think that's interesting because it's like if something is objectively good, you have to enjoy it, right? Where I feel like that's not, sorry, I'll let you respond to these points at some point. I don't know. Like I will, I will constantly be like, okay, I feel like this book that I just read is not objectively good. Like one of my favorite books of all time is very tropey. If you don't know what a trope is, trope a trope is like an aspect of a story. I think that's the best way to explain it. It's an aspect of a story. Um, and it's basically what builds your story, but it was very tropey. It's very like overdone. But I still really enjoyed it. You can enjoy like objectively, just like poorly done and quote unquote bad things, and you can also not enjoy objectively like well written and good things either.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Yeah, I think there's a whole genre around quote unquote bad movies that people love. You know, people call them guilty pleasures all the time. They're they know that they're probably not really that well done. Yeah. But they enjoy them nonetheless.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

Yeah. But I think with all, I think with all those points, I was like, okay, yeah, I feel like I feel like deep down I was right. I feel like there is an objectively good and objectively bad. There is obviously subjective in there, but I don't think that art cannot be criticized because it's, well, everything's subjective. Well, it's like it can be objectively poorly done and lazy.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

No, it I think that's true. I think there's standards in everything. You have to be able to put yourself up against some kind of standard and either exceed that standard or not quite get there. I think with with media in general, yes, it can be more subjective, but there are some objectively good or bad standards in terms of camera work and scripting and all this stuff. I mean, writing storyline. Yeah, because there can be bad camera work and bad acting, right? Objectively bad, whether you subjectively think that person is a good or not, they could have a bad performance or it could be poorly written. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

Yeah, and that does not mean that you can't enjoy it, but I don't think something being good or something being bad equals it, like, okay, well, if it's good, you have to like it, and if it's bad, you have to not like it. Like I said, I don't think that like good equals enjoyability. Like I just don't know.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Yeah, no, it doesn't have to be this masterpiece to enjoy it. So there's a lot of things out there that could be considered, you know, not not great, but they're still very enjoyable to watch or to consume as media.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

And I think that's also where the subjective part comes in, because it's like it's subjective on whether you enjoy it or not. That doesn't mean that just because somebody else doesn't like it means it's bad if it's well written. That just means, okay, you didn't connect to it. It's not really your thing, whatever. But that doesn't mean it's objectively bad. Like I think in another one of our podcasts, I was talking about this, I was like, I don't even know, but I was like confused. I was talking about something being like, when this is good, it's like it's it's good, good, but I don't know if that's just my opinion or not that it's good, good, but I feel it in my soul that like it is well written and well done good.

SPEAKER_05 8:57

Right.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

But like that doesn't mean everybody's gonna like it. Yeah, but it can be objectively well written and just formatted very well. Like I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Well, and I think I think one part of media or art that we could really talk about here is is music on that. Because music, you could hate a particular genre of music.

SPEAKER_03 9:19

But that doesn't mean it's bad.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

It could be absolutely beautifully done and well-executed piece of music. You just don't particularly like that style. That doesn't mean it's bad. It it can still be fantastic in what it is, it's just you don't like it. So I think I think music could be a one that could go that way easily.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

Yeah, yeah, that's actually a good point. And I think this reminds me of Taylor Swift's latest album, actually. I'm not a Swifty, but she got a whole lot of backlash for that album because it just wasn't like it was a fun album, you know? It wasn't necessarily done well. I don't think it was very done well, at least compared to her old things. Like again, I'm not a fan of her, but I'm not a hater either. I think that a lot of her lyricism in those were very cringy and just not very good. But then again, there's the argument to be made being like, oh, it's supposed to be cringy because it's it's supposed to be like that. But it's like, I don't know. But that album just seemed very like flat and kind of lazy just because it just it just wasn't done very well. And that's fine. And you can enjoy that, of course. I think another part of it is that when somebody says, like, oh, that's bad, but you can still enjoy it. I think that person's gonna feel like you're judging them because it's oh that's bad. Like you suck, you shouldn't like that because it's bad. There should be no judgment anywhere for what anybody enjoys, regardless of whether it's good or bad. Because I think that's why there's so much divide in it, because there's the elitism side of it, being like, oh, that's so bad, you shouldn't like that. I think there should be more debate to be made whenever somebody doesn't enjoy something and then goes around saying, Oh, that's bad, that's bad. No, you just didn't enjoy it, and that's fine. I think that's what I was talking about on another podcast where I was like, I tried to differentiate between this isn't for me versus okay, this was actually bad. Like, this is not good. This is not well done.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

A good example of that. We've talked about it before. The original Rocky movie was beautifully, beautifully done.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

And you just I mean, while we're on that, we might as well bring up my wonderful Jimmy Johns sandwiches.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

That's true, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 11:24

They are objectively delicious.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Objectively mid. That was wrong, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 11:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Well, true though.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

Tear him apart in the comments. No. Hey, hey, hey, just because you didn't like it doesn't mean it's objectively bad.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

It is true. It's objectively mid because it's objectively mid. Has nothing to do with my taste, buds. So you stink. It's America's taste, buds, folks.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

No, I'm just You have a Jimmy Johns right across from the street.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

I used to eat Jimmy Johns a lot. I just don't eat any kind of processed meat right now at all. That's the only reason I'm saying that. I used to love Jimmy Johns. And actually, and you know this, when we went to the 10X conference, we actually heard Jimmy John himself, the Jimmy Johns, speak, and he was downright awesome.

SPEAKER_03 12:12

Yeah, did y'all know the founder of Jimmy Johns' name is Jimmy John?

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Jimmy John, yeah. He's funny.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

Like that's iconic. I love that for him.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Yeah, he did awesome. He was one of my favorite speakers of that whole conference we went to a little over a year ago now.

SPEAKER_03 12:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

So but yeah, Rocky, phenomenal movie. You just don't s don't seem to like it or won't watch it. But that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:30

It's not my thing.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

That's okay. Just not your thing.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

I think it's just more of a people from that generation or like men like that movie. I don't know. Not saying girls don't, but this girl doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Yes, yes. Rocky is probably a very dude-heavy movie, I would think, in terms of the viewership. I would guess it's probably a 90-10, 90% of viewers of that movie nowadays are probably dudes.

SPEAKER_03 12:53

Yeah, but I think that's where a lot of the arguments come from is the fact that people don't want to admit that their favorite thing is bad or badly done because the judgment that comes with it from other people. I think if that wasn't there and we were all just like, okay, yeah, this was because the problem with the book space right now is that everybody's like, oh my gosh, this was so good, best book I've ever read. And then you pick it up. It's it's like the same exact book every single time. It's the same characters, same everything, because it's just over and over again, just the same thing because that's what sells. And it's not done well at all because everybody wants to write the same thing because that's what sells and that's what makes money. So it's just the same thing. I think there needs to be more honesty in it and be like, okay, this wasn't my thing. Okay, this was like really bad. Okay, I liked this because of this, this, and this, but you probably won't if you don't like this, this, and this. It makes it really hard for book recommendations when you can't differentiate those different things, you know?

unknown 13:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

And you've always been like that with your books. You've been able to you're you've always been a little bit of a critic when it comes to your books. Yeah, I'm I'm heavily.

SPEAKER_03 14:04

I'm the type of person where as long as I'm entertained by it, I will finish it. I won't put down the book and not finish it because I hate it. I will read through it for entertainment. Because usually the books that I hate, they're very easy to get through because they're not written well. Like that it's just very lane, boring, bland writing. So you can just speed through it. And also, I love writing my reviews. I can't write a review if I don't finish it. So it's like, but it's not like I'm wasting my time. It's that I'm learning more and more about my tastes each time I read a new book, too.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Well, tonight, I think we're gonna watch a new movie that hopefully it's objectively good. Right.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

I hope.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

We'll see. The first one was pretty good. We're gonna watch Zootopia 2 tonight.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

We're very late to the party.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Yeah, we are very late to the party.

SPEAKER_03 14:46

In our defense, though, around that time, like so many movies were coming out, and we had gone to the movie theater at like three different times in that around that time. So I think that's just why we didn't get to it. And then we were like, okay, I think it's out of movie theaters now. And we didn't want to buy it because we have Disney Plus, so we're not gonna pay 30 bucks for it to just be a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

At some point, it's just like, yeah, we'll just wait till it comes on Disney Plus. Yeah. After you after you wait so long, it's like, yeah, I'll just wait a couple more weeks till it comes on Disney Plus.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Yeah. But I definitely think there's the type of reader who's like, oh my gosh, this was so good when it's like actively just like not and you're not really being honest about why you liked it, versus the other reader who's like, I only read classics and these type of books. So I'm better than you because you read books that aren't these ones, and it's just like that whole elitist mindset thing. And neither one of those is healthy or good for the rest of the space. In the video as well, they said something that I have been saying for so long. Critical reading is learning what you like about it and being able to say that and being able to express that. People are always like, oh my gosh, you're so analytical. And I'm like, I just know what I like and I know what I don't like, and I'm able to say that out loud. Because a lot of people will be like, you know, yeah, I read this, didn't really like it, and then move on. I'm the type of person that's like, I didn't like this because of this, this, and this, and this. Like I'm able to put it into words why I didn't like it. And as I'm reading it, I'm like, oh, that I don't like that. Like that sort of thing as I'm reading it. So that's just like I know.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Well, and I think this this idea and this concept can be taken out into a lot of different things in life, not just critiquing media and art, you know. There are, in just about every industry and just about every job and just about anything you do in life, there are standards of excellence. You know, something is is good if you meet this or something is bad. So I think in any any job, you're gonna be trying to, you know, meet that standard of excellence. So it's the same type, same type of thing with the media. The people that are putting that all together, I would imagine their goal is to try to meet that at least standard of standard of good for their particular job.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

I really just think they're catering to the audience at this point. It's like Well, they like enemies to lovers, so that's what we're gonna do. And it's just like, oh my gosh, it's so tight. Um, but yeah, I 100% understand what you're saying. That doesn't mean you have to like it or you have to not like it, depending on whether it's good or bad. But you have to be able to say, like, yeah, I get that that's not the best. Yeah, I get that that's that's objectively good, whatever. I still didn't like it. I I still liked it, etc. But it this this kind of reminds me of that one quote where it's like, you know, choose anything. So my thing is just like my coffee right now. So you could be the best like vanilla latte ever. But you can't give it to somebody who just they just don't like vanilla. Like they it's you could be the best one out there, but they just don't like vanilla, and that's fine. But they're not gonna they're not gonna like it because they don't like vanilla.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Right. Right. So I guess uh for anything you're doing out there, whether you're critiquing media, whether you're doing your job, know that there are standards of excellence, standards of good, and I guess we could strive as people to strive for that excellence, right?

SPEAKER_03 17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Go over.

SPEAKER_03 17:55

Yeah, I just think it's like important to know that it just makes it easier to communicate with people, and it just doesn't start as many debates or arguments about it.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

There's a lot of subjectivity in life. There's a lot of there's a lot of gray, but in certain areas there is just there's this and that. There's it's a little more black and white. This is good based on these set of criteria. This is bad based on this set of criteria.

SPEAKER_03 18:18

Yeah. I just think that it just gets really muggy and foggy with this just because it has to do with like whether you like it or not. And you just have to separate liking it from the good and the bad, because those are different things, and I feel like not many people know that. Like it's not that, oh well, everything's like subjective. It's like you can't get better at something that everything is subjective. Like that's okay. Like, let's say that I'm an archery, right? Because I do archery. Let's say it's well, any score is subjective, and I'm just I don't need to improve on it at all because I could get any score I want, and I could be like, Yeah, that's great. Archery subjective, that's amazing. Look how good I did. I just scored like like one point. That's awesome. So we're thinking, like, I can't get better at it if there's no standards to meet in the first place. And I think that's how it is with writing. You can't just go into it writing whatever you want because people are gonna be like, um no, this stinks. If you just write, be like, he was walking in the forest, then he turned around, and then he turned around again, and um then he tripped and fell on his face. That's not gonna be good writing.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Objectively poor.

SPEAKER_03 19:28

That's not good writing. Again, that doesn't mean that you have to like it or you have to not like it. It's just separating those two things from each other. And it's the subjectivity of whether you like it or not, not whether it's actually good or actually bad.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

You know, what is objectively good?

SPEAKER_03 19:45

Was it the potato I just had?

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Oh, from yeah, that looked pretty good from Schließ, but it was something potato.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

It was I don't know what it was called. Loaded? No.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

It was a yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Maybe it was loaded.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Loaded potato, yeah, they're St. Patty's menu.

SPEAKER_03 19:57

I got it because it wasn't very loaded though. It was just it was a potato with sea salt, thyme, and one other thing, but it was like small. I don't know. I don't I didn't think it was like loaded, but it I loved it.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

I'll tell you what though, the filet from Maldener's is objectively good. So it is about dinner time.

SPEAKER_03 20:14

Oh yeah. While we're on the potato though, see, it was objectively not a loaded potato, but I loved it because it wasn't very loaded. So I subjectively loved it, even though it wasn't a super loaded potato. Loaded potatoes have a ton of things. It didn't meet the criteria for a loaded potato, but I loved it.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

You know what, Ellie?

SPEAKER_03 20:33

So it was a it was objectively a bad loaded potato, but it was an amazing potato.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Man, I think you just summed up our entire episode right there.

SPEAKER_03 20:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

We could have just said that and I think we would have been done.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

Shakespeare's taking notes from me.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Love it. Love it. Well, how about we go get another one?

SPEAKER_03 20:49

Yeah, sounds good.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_03 20:51

Well, thank you for joining us on NextGen on Elevate Springfield. We'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

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