Three Questions with Meghann Koppele Duffy

Episode 21 - Wisdom in Motion: Three Questions with Madeline Black & Elizabeth Larkam

• Meghann • Episode 21

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What does it take to keep legacy alive in a rapidly changing movement industry?

In this special episode of Three Questions, I sit down with two of the most influential voices in Pilates and movement education, Madeline Black and Elizabeth Larkam, to explore how decades of experience, curiosity, and collaboration can shape the future of our field.

We dig into the seven-year journey behind their groundbreaking two-volume work, Pilates Applications for Health Conditions, and why understanding the history, language, and evolution of movement is just as important as embracing innovation.

You’ll hear:
 ✅ How to honor the wisdom of past teachers while making space for new ideas
 ✅ Why clear, intentional language can transform your teaching and client results
 ✅ The role of collaboration in strengthening the Pilates and movement community

From the story behind their book project to candid reflections on aging, learning, and staying relevant, this conversation is packed with wisdom you can put into motion, no matter where you are in your career.

More About Madeline Black

Madeline Black is an internationally recognized movement educator, author, and creator of the Madeline Black Method™. With over 35 years of experience, she’s taught in more than 20 countries, written two influential books on Pilates and movement, and continues to work with clients and teachers worldwide from her practice in Sonoma, CA.

More About Elizabeth Larkam

Elizabeth Larkam is a leading international expert in fascia-focused movement and Pilates. She’s created programs for the San Francisco Ballet and Cirque du Soleil, authored and co-edited groundbreaking books, and teaches globally from her practice in Georgetown, Texas.

Resources mentioned:
Get Elizabeth & Madeline's Books, Pilates Applications for Health Conditions, HERE! (use code - PAHC15 for a discount!)
Move & Learn with Elizabeth
Move & Learn with Madeline
Find a Neuro Studio Teacher Near You
Connect with me on Instagram
Connect with me on Threads

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Welcome to Three Questions where critical thinking is king, and my opinions and research are only here to support your learning and hopefully deeper understanding. Hey, my name is Meghann and I am your host of Three Questions, and I am really excited for today's episode where I'm not going to ask you three questions, but I'm going to ask two very important people, three questions.

Now if you are a Pilates teacher and you don't know who these two women are, well, I'm gonna be so bold to say you aren't a Pilates teacher, so I would like to welcome the amazing Elizabeth Larkham and Matt Madeline Black. Easy for me to say to Three Questions. So first of all, thank you guys for being here.

Elizabeth Larkam: Thank you, Meghann. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: And before we kind of dig in, I. I was thinking how I introduce both you guys to the audience and reading off your bio doesn't do it justice. Madeline, I think, what, what did you say? Uh, approximately 40 years experience at a minimum, and Elizabeth, yeah. What did you just say? Your anniversary of teaching movement and Pilates was, 

Elizabeth Larkam: it's 40 years teaching Pilates this year.

Meghann Koppele Duffy: So over 80 years experience, plus my 23. That's a lot of experience right here. But man, they make my experience look like shit. But what I really wanna highlight is not that they've just been teaching Pilates, they have pioneered different techniques, taught all over the world, and in my opinion, have been critical thinkers and a bit of disruptors in the industry in a positive way.

So. It was an absolute honor. Now you guys listening to this on Spotify or Apple, don't see what I'm holding up, but if you're watching me on YouTube, I am holding up this giant book Pilates application for health conditions, volume one and two. Madeline Black and Elizabeth came up with this idea and um, it was an honor to be asked to participate in a chapter.

So I'd like to talk about the book today, if that's okay. Are you guys up for talking about the book? Completely, always. And don't worry if you guys talk over each other, um, we'll figure it out. So in thinking about this episode, something that bothers me as a 43-year-old, um, I don't know. I guess as we're looking towards more innovation and critical thinking and evidence-based theory, right?

Uh, we hear a lot of evidence-based practices. I think it's great. Um, but I believe we are leaving some foundational and some groundbreaking voices behind. I'm not saying that's your voices, but I do think as new things come out, people are very active on social media. How do we deal with this situation? I mean, is this a forge of age?

Is this a form of ageism? And I'm gonna ask you guys what's the best way to keep legacy alive in a modern way? 

Madeline Black: Yes, that's an excellent question and it's hard to say when there's so much, um, din going on, you know, with the social media world. I mean, that's our world now and all the marketing, you know, there, it's all about marketing.

So marketing messages should not be your education. And it really needs people to maybe get curious about something they see, but then actually go ahead and look into the research and then dive in, you know, to see if there's any foundation to what the claim is being said, uh, on these messages. So it's very difficult to kind of sort through and in my experience in looking at this.

I notice that a lot of what you're seeing, like TikTok and Instagram especially, you know, you're seeing the, these younger people, younger than Elizabeth and I are, uh, who have not the years in the, in the whole field, who really have no understanding of the evolution of Pilates especially, but also movement.

Uh, education, movement, motor control, you know, movement science. And, and that's what Elizabeth and I have through our careers, have always been curious and in researching this. And, uh, and then I, I've seen comments about people being aged out of teaching certain classes and things like that. And, and I, I feel that, um, yeah, there's a legacy.

We have Joseph Pilates, there's the family tree, you know, and all of that. Um, but. The field has expanded in a good way, right? So that the time, if you look at the, the years, some people don't even know what were the years that Joseph Pilates was teaching and his, you know, the world was completely different then.

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Just a little different, wasn't it? 

Madeline Black: Yeah. And so, you know, person's health and what their activities are, you know, uh, and even conditions. This is the thing about the conditions that have come up. These conditions. A lot of these in the book, were not part of the world back then. Long COVID, you know, I mean, it, it's, it's remarkable to me.

And then, you know, even the diagnosis, which you could speak to Meg too, is, you know, ms, there were people who had MS and they didn't know what it was. So, you know, it's, so there's that legacy, but also understanding we can't be stuck, you know, in 1950. And unfortunately I feel the tide is kind of going back or there's amnesia or no one's been taught that there is a great body of work and great teachers like in this book.

Uh, and you know, here we are and we are older, but we're still functioning and we have the knowledge base and have brought this all forward. And I just feel like that's missing in the, in the social. Well, I, 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: I feel like, and this is what I say, um. Sometimes we don't get the answer we want. 'cause the question wasn't good.

And I, I think the, if I could make my question even a little bit more, I wanna talk about your work, Elizabeth's work, whereas, I'll give an example. I see a guy talking as if he invented fascial based movement, connecting the full body. I'm pretty sure he didn't invent that, but I know someone sitting here pioneered that.

Madeline, you did a lot with biomechanics and, and different somatics and biomechanics. So if, if I be so bold, I think the conversation goes, it becomes an us verse them. And I know when I was right outta college, I had a lot of education, but no experience. But how do we bridge the gap between the old, the.

Older knowledge that was great, that might not have had the research to support it because of technology and newer stuff without alienating these new people that want to innovate. How do we encourage people to look back on the past? Not that it doesn't mean they're not valuable, but that it will help them get to a better answer.

Is that a better question? 

Madeline Black: That's much clearer. And I would say, you know, if you don't wanna come to our presence and be with us in a teaching setting, that would be come and te come take classes with us, you know, uh, and or read our books. So you have the applies applications for health conditions where there's a whole history of assessment, how it evolved in our field.

There's so many teachers that don't even use assessment. It's true. Their assessment is a shape. It's not about movement. So that's my big thing. And then the evolution of bringing in more, um, biological fascial studies and movement, you know, is Elizabeth's book, fascia in Motion. So there's my book centered her book, you know, and then, so I 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: will put these in the, the court.

There's gonna be a lot of course not course notes. Um, podcast notes, guys. So Madeline's book is centered and there's two volumes, correct? 

Madeline Black: Correct. Yes. It's like two additions. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Two additions, yeah. Elizabeth, your fascia in motion, correct? Yes. So I will put those links down there in addition to the links to get this Pilates application for health conditions.

I mean, I know for a fact the chapter on Parkinson's is really good. The author is amazing, and she's, she's really modest though. Really modest. 

Madeline Black: So yeah, so there's like a history. I mean, you'll see there's not only the history of the. You know, the teachers who started evolving Pilates back in the sixties, you know, Eve Gentry and you know, Kathy Grant, I mean, these pe these women really started evolving to help teach people move better, you know, not just do the exercise.

So, and there's a history of how, how Pilates came into the physical therapy world. It's a chapter Elizabeth wrote. Uh, so there's a lot of juice in that, that volume. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: So what I'm hearing is. If you're newer to this industry or even under 20 years, maybe we should do some research on the past and educate ourselves.

Madeline Black: Yes, absolutely. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Awesome. What do you think, Elizabeth? 

Elizabeth Larkam: I think that a, a very reasonable way to approach this, uh, past, present, and looking towards the future is both with, um, utmost respect and a great deal of humility, because given the complexity of each individual. And the complexity of evolution, human evolution, um, it's possible to get quite fascinated, um, with the, with the latest quote, discovery or the, the, the, the latest, um, the latest research, uh, paper.

And to think that, uh, that, oh, well, that indicates that the past was so, um, so irrelevant. And we find that in the movement field in particular, uh, looking interdisciplinarily that, um, people from who were practicing movement, we'll say for example, Joseph h Pilates, practicing movement without the, uh, the benefit of, um, the fascia research or the benefit of, uh, biomechanics or neurological research that, that they were honing in on their.

Their, their human physiology and intuition, and they knew some things that we can be, uh, we can be informed by. So I'm constantly on a, a time shuttle, um, back to the past and, uh. Onto the present in hopes of, uh, making a contribution to the future. I think, um, when, uh, when Madeline and I took our seven year arc, our seven year journey to co-edit these two volumes Pilates applications for health conditions, we were in constant communication about how does a particular movement sequence in the Pilates studio that appears to be.

All this year, how is that influenced by, um, the vocabulary of Joseph Pilates from the, um, twenties to the sixties, and how are what we perceive to be innovations in the studio movement practice today, how might that be shaped by. People who study with Joseph Pilates, whom we also quote in the book. So we're constantly on this shuttle.

Yeah, I 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: love that. I love that and it's, I find the more I learn, the closer I get back to appreciating the classical Pilates method. That doesn't mean it's always appropriate, but I can find the appropriateness. In it, and I love using research to have a better way to describe what our intuition and what we're doing.

Um, I'm, I'm teaching a workshop on scoliosis this weekend and I said, we're not replacing what works because people will be like, well, I was taught this. I am not saying that's wrong. I am just showing you a different way to look at it to help you better understand what the hell we're trying to do. You know, it's, that's, and that's why I loved through this process, you know, it was a real honor to the I I remember random things.

This is gonna lead me to question two. I'm gonna segue here. Just that meeting when we were talking about language now, something that I say to my students all the time, and they get a little annoyed when they say something to me. I go Word salad. It's just word salad. It's a crouton. Now you're putting dressing on it.

What do you actually mean? You're saying stability, but you're moving. And not that they're not smart, they're all brilliant, but I want them to get what they mean. And I loved that. That was the conversation we had. You're like, Meg, what do you mean by this? What do we trying to get at? And I was like, with these, the words I'm using and what I want everybody to hear before I ask the question.

In this book, they took the time to create a glossary to try to improve language and how we use it. So do the three of us a favor and buy it and read it and stop saying stability when you're removing something. I'm just kidding, but I'm not. So to ask a question, 'cause that's why we're here, is language. I mean, it's so important.

How can we as movement teachers improve our language to deeper our understanding of what we actually mean? I think, I wanna know what you guys think. 

Elizabeth Larkam: We can start by keeping an editor on our shoulder and she's always saying, really? Do you mean that, did you actually say what you meant? Um, it's true. I love 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: that.

That's so simple, Elizabeth. 

Elizabeth Larkam: Thank you. Yeah, it's true. Pilates applications for health conditions. It is written in the English language. There is a Korean edition, which is in progress now, and there's a Mandarin Chinese edition that is in progress now also, but given that it's in the English language, Madeline and I had a huge heavy lifting task to acknowledge what types of vocabulary are appropriate for each field.

Within the English language, there's the vocabulary of anatomy, which could come from Latin, have its base in Latin. There's the vocabulary of, um, biomechanics, the vocabulary of motor learning. There's the vocabulary of Joseph Pilates. He brought terms such as powerhouse now. Cut him some slack. Joseph Pilates was a German, German origin.

English was not his first language, and yet he was teaching in New York in English. He brought words, uh, to describe his movement such as powerhouse, such as swan. Such as elephant, such as mermaid, and that vocabulary would get our book nowhere. If we want to have an interdisciplinary influence to the field of movement in health, we need to be able to communicate with clinical professionals, with fitness professionals who may not have the Joseph H Pilates background.

So throughout the writing of the book, the editing of each of the chapters by 26 contributors, we were constantly asking ourselves, um, does this, is this contributor clarifying a movement sequence with words such that a Pilates professional could follow it as, could a clinical professional from another field?

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Yeah, I think that's super important. And I know when it was happening, it was over COVID and we had spoke about this, you know, it wasn't my primary concern over COVID when all our businesses imploded and stuff like that. So the seven years it took, uh, for you guys to get that together was such a big undertaking.

Not because you did it slowly, but because you did it exceptionally well. Despite all those considerations, um, I remember coming home from Dubai after being in Japan and then having to be in Miami and go to California, and I was tired and I was like, I need a break. And COVID happened. So I apologized to the world for me complaining about traveling, but at that time, all of us teachers like did not know what was going on.

Right? So you guys creating this resource when we all became very separated. But together via social media, it, I just want every teacher to buy this as a resource. So this way you can communicate better with neurologists, PTs, all the other people. Okay. And because of COVID and that we don't do as much in-person stuff.

Right guys? I mean, I don't do as much as I used to. It's all virtual. So I do think this is a huge resource for language, um, for all of us. And even on the funnier side, when you said it's in English, I laughed. Um, that's not what you meant, but I laughed because it's amazing how in English we all use a different English.

There's a New York English, there's a Midwest English like, and I just, to me, the, I, again, the case studies are great. I'm not diminishing that, but if by this, even just for that glossary and look at all the words and maybe think about what you mean. So Madeline, what does language mean to you? 

Madeline Black: Well, we're talking about communication, right?

But to me also as a teacher, when I have clarity in my language, I can see the person I'm working with more clearly. So when I have that understanding that if I use the word hip, am I talking about the pelvis? Am I talking about the hip joint? You know, and hip, like Eve Gentry's knee folds. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Mm-hmm. 

Madeline Black: That's her name for actually a proximal seeding of the head of the femur into the socket during hip flexion.

So that, and it's, it's how the body responds to that single leg hip flexion, you know. But I love how 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: you're thinking about people's intention. That to me is so important in language because everybody's so quick to be like, that's not what a knee fold is. Instead of thinking about what was her intention just right there, guys, I hope you learned that.

Like, oh, just because we're queuing something, it might create a sensory environment ideal for that client. But ask intentions first before you go to freak out. Asking like that, I feel like I just learned something. 

Madeline Black: Yeah. What I, what I'm saying as a movement teacher, yeah, it helps me be clear in what I'm watching, the movement of the body.

Now, would I say that to the client? No. I would use more imagery or sensory, like soften the back of your hip as you float your foot up off the table. I mean, that could be a, a, you know, cue for the client. But I know in my mind. The mechanics of it and what I should be seeing, and then looking at the tensions and the pulling throughout the whole body and see how their, their strategy on lifting their foot up off the floor.

What their body does is it responds to it. But because I have the clarity, you look, when I teach a workshop, I have people ask a question, right? The teacher, I, I state something about the pelvis and da, da da, da, right? And someone has a question, and then they ask me this question, I don't understand their question.

'cause they're, they're not explaining it to me. And of course, my language, my language being actual anatomical, biomechanical, you know, language. Asking a question is 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: not easy. And that's why. So then I have to, to, I had, 

Madeline Black: yeah, I have to teach the teachers. I did this during CODI had to teach everyone even when they wrote in questions.

What do you mean rewrite that question? And try to say it in this way, I think 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: it's a lot of teachers are fearful of being judged for saying the wrong thing or being sounding uneducated. And what I just say is Just say what you mean. We'll figure it out. Um, and I and my dad always said, oh, there's, there's not a stupid question, but people feel like it's a stupid question because they don't actually know what they're, what, what are they trying to get at, right?

So I love the idea of language, if I can summarize and please correct me if I heard it wrong. Language helps you understand what you're doing better, helps us communicate to the actual client and helps us communicate with each other. Right. So having these tools and being okay with making mistakes and asking questions, right?

That to me leads to great dialogue. I love when teachers ask a question and my face, I'm always like, really? That's your question? But it always ends up in an interesting dialogue because. Don't you ever notice where teachers will ask a question, you're like, out of all the things I said, this is what you're focused on.

Right? It's so funny, um, and that's why like I'm obsessed with learning because it's so weird, isn't it? Um, so before I ask question three is give me a little pitch for the book. I know. If you follow me on social media or on this podcast, I don't promote any products. Why? Because I want you guys to know what I promote is what I really do.

The reason why I think this book is important is for all the reasons we just talked about, but I'm kind of gonna add in a fourth question that we didn't even talk about, but like, what was your why for this book? Can each of you give me your why for this book? 

Madeline Black: Elizabeth, you go 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: tag. You're 

Elizabeth Larkam: it, you're it.

Yes. Yes. I feel a, a great responsibility to the field and I have a, um, a sisterhood with Madeline, um, in this, uh, commitment to furthering the field of movement education specifically within Pilates. And I, um, bemoan the fact that, uh, Pilates can easily be, uh, be diluted or not respected for, uh, the, its.

Tremendous potential to facilitate, um, movement practices that are, uh, physically beneficial, emotionally beneficial, and can bring cognitive clarity. So amazing. I see this, uh, this book, um, as a. Well, it was a labor of, sure, one can say a labor of love, a labor of study, um, a labor of commitment, uh, to the field with a, um, a sisterhood of, of collegiality, um, such that we can, in this, in these two volumes, we can give.

Foundation, uh, for Pilates in that contributes to healthcare and to health wellbeing and to wellness that is very relevant in the, um, in this age of ai. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: So you made this book for us, 

Elizabeth Larkam: aren't we generous? 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Thank you. What about, what about can, how do you follow that one, Madeline? I know, I know you can do it.

I'm, I have faith. You guys are, no, it's, you 

Madeline Black: know, Elizabeth and I have over all these years, you know, we were obviously the. Early adapters actually in the field of Pilates, you know, early adapters of anatomy and dissection and biomechanics. I mean, there are other people also parallel with us, but you pushed the envelope.

We, we were always searching for that. And in our busy lives, even though we both were in the Bay Area at the time, you know, we kind of just orbited around each other, you know. So when the publisher came to both of us and said, Hey, we're interested in a, uh. Pilates book with research. Both she and I were like, Ooh, that's gonna be a pretty small book, you know?

But we decided to collaborate and then we, we came up with this idea, not what the publisher wanted. And you know, being the years that we've had in this field, we pretty much know everyone. And we can, I can even tell when I'm teaching a group class, like at a conference. I can tell who studied with whom, by the way, they're doing the movement.

Oh, you're a person, you're a this person. You know, you could just tell. So it's interesting in the history that we have so that we could do that. And it was such an honor to be able to choose teachers like yourself, Meghann,, who, whose work we have a high respect for. And uh, we really wanted to bring that forward, you know, out into our field, you know.

Because we have the ability of knowing lots of people, you know, and then pulling in the expertise, you know, based on what, in the seven years working with Elizabeth, we, we bonded our orbits now are more like together like this. It's great. I mean, this was one of the huge benefits, not the money, there's no money involved here in terms of publishing, but, you know, it's, it's that, is that that connection launching these other teachers, you know?

Who are younger. Most, most of them are younger than we are, but yeah. You know, that's, and yeah, it's a gift really. And, and it's a legacy in some ways for us, you know? 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Yeah. 

Madeline Black: Uh, in terms of what we're leaving the world, we are on that spectrum of the winter part of our ages, you know, so 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: I think you got more to do though, both of you, so, yeah.

Madeline Black: Okay. Well, thanks. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Yeah. Hopefully God will 

Madeline Black: think that. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Yes. Yes, yes. I also just wanna highlight two things that I heard that I just wanna bring to the audience's attention. Is both Madeline and Elizabeth could have chose competition, isolation and not collaboration. And I don't know if you guys all know this about Maris and I, when we first started, we were both doing Pilates for ms.

She, I had saw her book 'cause I was looking for resources and that's how we met of are we gonna be competition? And we said, huh, let's do this together. So I just love another example. Of choosing collaboration over competition. And dare I say, I really do think we need more of that in the Pilates field.

Uh, in particular, um, Madeline's success doesn't dull my light. My success does not dull these two lights. Um, and I know it's corny and people say that. My big thing is people say that shit all the time, but they don't follow through. And these two ladies are here today because they believe in collaboration.

I reached out to them about this project and how we can shine a light on all the teachers. I emailed Madeline, what it was like a Saturday at 8:00 AM and she emailed me back within two to three hours. Madeline, so you know, I said to my husband, I was like, I really want to do this. I think it's important, but there is a chance it will be taken the wrong way.

And it will burn a bridge. And my husband goes, are you willing to do that risk? I go, I think it's important. So I am grateful that you didn't hesitate this wasn't about you, and to bring the light to all these teachers. So I am going to be spotlighting some of the teachers who are in the book on my podcast episode and asking them questions about their work, but also to help with critical thinking.

So I think if we can start that dialogue here. Carry it over. Um, again, everybody listening, maybe lift somebody else up today. Um, because I think we need more of that. 

Madeline Black: Absolutely. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Which, back to the task at hand, we gotta get to question three. Although I added in a a two B question three. Enough of this lighthearted chitchat as one of my favorite people.

Um, do you know who Larry David is? Yes. 

Elizabeth Larkam: I love him. I, I don't 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: wanna assume, right? Larry David, if you don't know, is one of the, um, he started, he did the Seinfeld show with Jerry Seinfeld, but he has a show Curb Your Enthusiasm. And one of my favorite things Larry David said was he was at a dinner party and he said, he asked something maybe slightly inappropriate.

Don't worry, I won't do that to you. But he said, I'm just trying to elevate small talk to medium. Oh. So in the, in the effort to elevate small talk to medium. Let's get out of the Pilates world. I wanna know what is inspiring you two right now? What are you into, what are you doing? Tell us something to, uh, maybe get us more curious about you guys.

I'll start with Madeline. Okay. 

Madeline Black: Well, there's so many things. You know, it's, it's at, at this point people are like, aren't you retiring? Are you retiring? This is the thing that drives me crazy. Ew. It's like, why do you have to retire? And that's what people say. 'cause your age, you're a certain age, what are you?

And I said, first of all, never in my life have I worked for a company who paid me anything. I mean, my whole career, I have never worked for corporations. No one's ever paid my health insurance. No one's giving me an IRA zero. And this is what the profession, I mean, this is what we do. Right. So that said, it's like my life is like, no, I'm not going to retire.

But I'm working differently. I'm doing things very differently. And my main focus, I mean this may be kind of boring, but it's my own health, you know? As you get older. Why is that boring? Well, I don't know. 'cause it's not like I am painting or playing more music or. You know, singing, you know, you don't wanna hear me sing, but, you know, but it's, it's, uh, yeah, so I'm doing different movement 'cause I have to, 'cause my body is changing, so, you know, I'm exploring that.

Uh, and also, um. Doing different activities. Like I love standup paddleboard, so when I'm around the water, I love the water. I swim a lot. Now I wasn't doing that before, so it, but it's all movement based. I can't help that. But that's what you 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: love. I, I am actually so excited 'cause I'll be standup paddleboard and all next week in Lake George.

Nice. I love standup paddleboarding. I don't like kayaking the seating. It's not for me. 

Madeline Black: Yeah. Sitting inflection and then rotating. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: No. There's something about standup paddleboarding that is so relaxing. How long can you go out there for? 'cause my attention span is not very long for anything. I've 

Madeline Black: done 45 minutes or so.

I'm on the ocean though. It's a completely different thing. It's really tough. I mean, it's not a, what's higher 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: risk? Death is involved there. 

Madeline Black: Well, it's not big waves, you know, there it's, I go out when it's as flat as possible. Okay. You got me 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: nervous there. Madely. And I've 

Madeline Black: got whales coming up to me at the same time.

Seriously? I had to go down on my knees 'cause a whale came really close to my board. What about sharks? Madeline? The sharks don't come in. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Okay. 

Madeline Black: To where we are. They're out there. This is why I 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: prefer pools. I'm just saying, 

Madeline Black: well, I, I was always trying to learn it on the ocean, and then I was falling over and I'm like, what is wrong with me?

I'm a movement expert. I can't even stand up on this thing. And then I went with a friend to a lake and I was like, what? Oh, and her board is blow up, by the way. Very different. My, my board is smaller. It's fiber. I mean, it's like. I pick the hardest board, of course, and I'm on the ocean. So anyway, it's a huge challenge and that freaks my mind out.

I mean, I have to, it's like a meditation because I have to, the minute I have a thought, the minute I have a fear, I lose my balance. I don't fall in the water. But I mean, you start to lose your balance. But I have to keep my mind completely still. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: So I, okay. What do you think? Your focus, so I literally just filmed an episode about how to stay focused.

Is when you see, do you get more distracted when you see something, hear something, or feel something when you're paddle boarding? 

Madeline Black: Feel? Mm. For me, I'm a feeler. Yeah, sensate. Yeah. So I start to hum. Try it. Yeah. I humming while I'm on the board and it completely drops me down and I can keep my balance. So Love, it's, it's amazing.

As soon as I can be just a thought, like, oh. I'm having lunch today, blah, blah, blah, whatever, and then all of a sudden I'm like on the board going like this. So yeah, 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: it reminds me, my husband, who was a high level athlete, I mean. He was an offensive lineman, so they just look like big white dudes or big black dudes, whatever.

And, but he's so light on his feet when we went standup paddleboarding. It's the one thing I'm better at him Yeah. Than, than at him. And it was so funny because I think he is so kinesthetic and a natural mover. There was a lot of feeling distractions. I don't get distracted by feel, I get distracted by noise.

So when I'm out there, my husband's like, why are you so good at this? And I was like. I don't know, but I'm, it, it was like, so that's so interesting that you said the same. I would've guessed knowing your movement background, I would've assumed, like I assume with Brian it would, you would be naturally good at it, but it's interesting understanding your distractions.

Madeline Black: Yeah. No, it was not a natural, I don't do well with water under, or skiing, like things that move under my feet. I was a dancer, so I was on the stage on the floor. Yeah. Eye hand coordination. The worst, you know? 'cause I dance, I danced professionally, so we weren't throwing balls ever. You know, and I didn't skate and I didn't ski.

I was dancing all the time, so my proprioception. Okay, so don't 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: throw balls at Madeline's face when she's on an uneven surface. 

Madeline Black: There you go. That'd be good training though, would it? I know, 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: right? Um, yeah. That's amazing. Well, thank you for sharing that. What about you, Elizabeth? What are you up to these days?

Elizabeth Larkam: Oh, I'm so sorry to bring it, uh, down, out of the ocean, filled with whales, uh, to, uh, to, to this. Um, I actually, I have a, I have a contract for a new book with our publisher and, um, for the next year I'll be preparing this, uh, this book, which is a, to bring 10 years of recent FAFSA research, um, and apply it to movement.

Wow, because it's time. Wow. It's time to upgrade Fascia in motion and rather going into a second edition. 'cause Madeline has a second edition of centered my fascia in motion over my shoulder here. It's going to stay as it is. But the, the world has changed considerably since it was published in 2017. And um, now I have the.

Well, the, the good fortune to bring, uh, the, the 10 years of fascia research that is very significant to movement and, and apply it there. Now, in order to do that, like Madeline, I have to focus on my health, which is, uh. I consider myself such a full-time project. Um, so there's, there's lots of movement going on.

Lots of trying to get state-of-the-art, nutrition, um, always trying to get sleep right. Uh, the usual things that one Hill hears about in the wellness space, but that, that's. That's what I'm up to. And what do you think, of course, working to, oh, go ahead. Working, working to, uh, support the whole project because, uh, oh yeah.

The, the books are book publishing in our field is not really economically viable. So I have to, uh, uh, teach to, uh, support the project. Excuse me. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Someone actually asked me, how come you haven't started your next research study? Like clinical research? And I was like, money? 

Elizabeth Larkam: Yeah. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Money I have to make it.

There's not much out there, especially with some cuts and stuff like that. So I'm doing my best and they didn't mean it the way they said it, but I took it the way they said it 'cause mm-hmm. You know? Anyway, so I, back to that. What do you think is the biggest, I don't wanna say driver to health. What do you think is the one thing that that can make the, the wheels come off the bus?

For me, it's. Hydration, which makes me laugh because I don't ever remember drinking water as a child or in my twenties. And I find if I don't drink three of these giant water bottles, um, shit doesn't function. So I wonder if there's anything for you guys that feel like you're deal breakers with health.

Madeline Black: Mm-hmm. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Hmm. 

Madeline Black: I'd say movement. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Yeah, movement. 

Madeline Black: Yeah. Because if I, I mean, yes, hydration. I actually, as you get older, you know, your, your sense of, um, 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: are you saying I'm getting old, Madeline? Is that what I'm hearing? Uh, well, your 

Madeline Black: sense as you get older, you're, your sense of thirst diminishes so you don't realize that you're thirsty.

So you actually, you know, I never. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: I never had a sense sense of thirst. That's a study. 

Madeline Black: I can send you the study. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: No, no, but it's interesting. My mother used to have to force me to drink things. I am never thirsty, never was as a kid. I also have celiac and other digestive issues, but it's something that used to make my mother crazy because, or you know, probably to make her crazy.

We've talked about it like once, but like I could go through the whole day without drinking water. So send me that study. I wanna read it. 

Madeline Black: Okay. I'll have to search for it. I can figure 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: it's, 

Madeline Black: yeah, but so that's interesting. I mean, yeah, I find that I have to consciously do that, but if I don't move, like I haven't, uh, I've been away for a couple of days, like two, three days without like, just kind of doing normal, like stretch on the counter and, you know, wiggle around in your chair and all that.

You know, I need my, my workout and I start to feel. L bad energy. My thoughts get really negative and I, I can't move. Well, so then I get really crappy. Were you always that way? Uh mm I don't know if I was, but I've had a lot of injuries too from the dancing, you know? So, um, I have to keep myself in check, you know?

So yeah, I'd say if I don't move, that is my downfall. Awesome. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Not awesome that it happens, but 

Madeline Black: No, I know. Yeah. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: What about you, Elizabeth? Yes. Sleep. Um, just 'cause you said it, I was thinking sleep. 

Elizabeth Larkam: Well actually, um, I would rather, I would rather move than sleep, which is, uh, maybe a, a can be a problem. Um, but, uh, but continually fine tuning, um.

Uh, what, uh, my organism needs, what I need, um, during the, during the aging process, which I don't feel old, but I, the necessity of fine tuning is, um, even a greater responsibility now. And that, uh, includes, um, movements, certainly fine tuning the movements. So my. Proprioceptive sense is fed and therefore I can have a, um, it may be delusional, but I can have the sense of being cohesive.

And then when I have the, the, uh, the sense, the foundation of being cohesive, which comes to me through movement, through the proprioceptive. Sensory elements, um, then I feel I can express better, use language, better, uh, teach with more compassion, be more present with my family. And in order to do that, I have to have creatine, creatine for the muscles and creatine for the brain.

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Uh, I love that. I love that. And I, I feel the same about movement. I'm a little different 'cause I, I'm not, I wasn't. I was an athlete, but an average athlete at best, I wasn't an exceptional athlete. Movement doesn't come naturally to me, so for me, smaller movement balances, I call them DMAs, daily movement, activators to activate proprioceptions.

Just like what you said, if I don't do that, I am the worst version of myself, I think. It's crazy. It's, it's, but I think in my twenties, I think I was treating my body like it was like yours. Both of you who are naturally good movers. So over exercising, trying to find those proprioceptive shifts, but that's not what my body needed.

So I hope if you guys listen to this, if you are movers like Elizabeth and Madeline or a non mover who needs to move, uh, finding the ways to do it for you and think about what these things are that. Are your deal breakers, and I love that you were like, oh, what I'm doing is so boring. I mean, I feel like when people are like, oh, what do you do all day?

I am like, I think about movement. I study movement, I move, I talk about it. But that's what I love to do. Mm-hmm. So I guess I'm pretty boring too. Okay. I do love to spend time with my family. That's my, my favorite, uh, because, um. Anytime my head even gets a little big, even a little big, they bring me right back down in, in a, in a very loving way.

So, um, thank you guys so much for being here, for your contributions to not only the Pilates community, to the movement community to supporting other women. Sorry, you support other men too, but supporting women specifically because unfortunately in this industry. I'll say it. Sometimes the men rise higher and faster when they have less experience, less knowledge, and got it from some of the women sitting in this room.

So I'm just gonna be so bold to say that. So I will, on behalf of all of the movement community, thank you. Thank you for continuing to learn to open the conversation to other teachers and to be, uh, I don't know. Good role models on how to age and how to include people in the process of learning. 

Madeline Black: Thank you.

Elizabeth Larkam: Thank you Meghann.. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: And thank you guys for listening to this episode. I am going to put a ton in the show notes. If you have any questions, I will make sure Madeline and Elizabeth's emails are there so you can reach out to them and ask them questions directly. Please check out the book. Please check out their work.

Please check out their work if you're going to teach a course. I know I'm excited to read the new book. I want to be more educated on your work as well in the Pilates community. I always felt a little isolated because I wasn't from the dance background, so, uh, I just look forward to getting to know you guys more and your work, even more.

So, I will see you all next time. Thank you. Thank you. 

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