Episode 34 - More Than Movement: A Conversation on Purpose & Service with Jessie Lee & Jojo Bowman

What happens when movement becomes more than exercise and turns into service?

In this episode of Three Questions with Meghann Koppele Duffy, I sit down with Jessie Lee and Jojo Bowman, two women who went from the ballet studio to working with wounded veterans in Denmark. Together, we explore how curiosity, compassion, and a refusal to take “no” for an answer built a program that helps people rediscover movement, meaning, and hope.

In This Episode You’ll Hear:

• How creating safety starts long before movement begins

• How “small goals” can rebuild hope and identity after trauma

• Why purpose and sustainability matter as much as passion in service work

• The unlikely connection between ballet discipline and military resilience

Whether you’re a movement teacher, a healthcare professional, or someone searching for a deeper connection to your work, this episode will inspire you to see movement as a vehicle for service, healing, and human connection.

More Info About Jessie Lee
Jessie Lee, NCPT, is the founder of Copenhagen Pilates Studio and co-founder of the medically endorsed Danish Wounded Warriors Project (DWWP), established in 2010 to support veterans and civilians recovering from severe trauma and limb loss. A former professional ballet dancer, she began her Pilates training in 1987 at Alan Herdman Studios in London and is also certified in Gyrotonic®, Gyrokinesis®, and CoreAlign®.

Her humanitarian work with DWWP earned her the Medal of the Danish Society of Military Medicine and the Anders Lassen Award from the Danish government. Jessie later co-founded Being Able, an education and research initiative developing programs for individuals with complex injuries.

Known for her curiosity and clinical rigor, Jessie lectures internationally on trauma-informed rehabilitation and has contributed to Pilates Applications for Health Conditions (Handspring). She continues to teach globally, integrating science, artistry, and compassion in her approach to movement.

More Info About Jojo Bowman
Jojo Bowman, NCPT, AMRSPH, is a former professional ballet dancer with English National Ballet, Berlin Ballet, and The Royal Danish Ballet. She co-founded the Danish Wounded Warriors Project (DWWP) and helped develop the Being Able Method, a research-based approach to trauma and limb-loss rehabilitation.

Certified by Alan Herdman in 2006, Jojo has pursued advanced studies with Elizabeth Larkam, Madeline Black, and John Sharkey, focusing on movement strategies for complex injuries. Her work has been recognized with the Medal of the Danish Society of Military Medicine, the Anders Lassen Award from HRH King Frederik, and a commendation from the Royal Society for Public Health.

A contributing author to Pilates Applications for Health Conditions and Arts and Health – An International Journal of Research, Policy and Practice, Jojo lectures internationally and teaches workshops for movement professionals and Paralympic athletes.

Links & Resources For This Episode:
Get the book, Pilates Applications for Health Conditions, HERE! (use code - PAHC15 for a discount!)
Find a Neuro Studio Teacher Near You
Connect with me on Instagram
Connect with me on Threads

Transcript

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Welcome to Three Questions where critical thinking is king, and my opinions and research are only here to support your learning and hopefully deeper understanding. Hey, I'm your host Meghann, and I am so honored you clicked on Three Questions today so we can talk about trauma and stress with two women I am so excited to meet for the first time and to introduce you all to the wonderful Jessie and Jojo. I'm gonna call them j and j because I love a nickname. So now you have a nickname from me, even though we've only met five minutes ago. So welcome Jessie and Jojo. Thank you. Thanks for having us. And just so you guys know, these lovely ladies are coming all the way from Denmark.

So if we have some internet glitches or delays, we're gonna work through that because Denmark is a little far away from New Jersey, um, and, you know, internet, it happens. So these two women have done so much in their career. So what I always like to do, guys, is I'm putting their full bio in the show notes because an introduction doesn't do them justice.

Some things that I found very interesting and wanted to point out. They've both worked in ballet and with the military as both movement educators helping both dancers and people military who have had some trauma or limb loss regain movement, find movement solutions, and it just kind of sit really well with kind of the work I do with neurological conditions.

So I'm just so honored to have you guys here today. Thank you so much. Thank you. We are really happy here, and this is, this is their first podcast, so they're a little nervous, but we'll break you in gently. Woo. All right. 

Jojo Bowman: Hey. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Yes. So another really important thing is Jessie and jojo were contributors in the Pilates Applications for Health Conditions book.

I always have to look at the title because I flub it up. Okay, and their chapter was Pilates for trauma related to stress and anxiety. So I'm also gonna put the link to the book with a 15% off coupon so you can check out their chapter and the other chapters. So I'm yapping enough. Let's get right into question one, guys, in your chapter and in your work.

You guys use movement as a tool, and the three of us could discuss movement as a tool for trauma and stress for probably seven days, maybe longer. But I want the audience to critically think a little bit. So question one is, do you have a question that you like to ask in your sessions to establish safety or trust with people you're working with?

Hmm. Jessie, you wanna start us off? 

Jessie Lee: Yeah, I'm just thinking. Um, I think definitely, and I'm not answering directly the question right now, but for me, 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: oh, I don't love a direct answer. Get in the gray area. I love it, 

Jessie Lee: but work around it. So Brett, I mean, gen generally. Safety first, right? So when you have a client that comes with, with, uh, high stress and anxiety, um, and it can be related to, uh, a trauma that they've had, but it could also be, uh, an illness or it could be a psychological or physical trauma, right?

It could have, um, it could be grounded in many things. Um, they're going to need to feel. Safe, right? So, so we really, uh, take great care to create a good environment, first of all, right? How is the lighting, how is our tone of voice? How is um, is there too much sound? Do we have music? Is it nice to have music or not?

So, so we kind of lay the foundation first of all, and then comes a conversation, right? If we see that client for the first time, right? Then, um. I mean, it's an interesting question. I dunno if it, if it's big, it's a big question. If there's, if there is one things, well, maybe lemme, I'll 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: clarify a little. So I love what you talked about, the environment and setting up the environment, and I think a lot of us assume the environment that determines safety.

And I love how you pointed out. Well, we could have music or not music, so maybe it's not a question you ask, an observation you take, and some of this is really intuitive us, of us as teachers, and maybe you can share your intuition so the listeners can be like, oh my God, I do that too. Or maybe I can tap in.

So maybe it's not a direct verbal question. How do you know how to set up that environment? 

Jojo Bowman: I think it's also a, a question of. Tapping into people's resources. So it's kind of, it's a conversation. It's a dance, it's a meeting someone where they are, having them being seen and being heard and being met exactly where they are on the day and trying to tune in to what their resources are.

I mean, obviously we are working with, we, we began this work, uh, 15 years ago, uh, working with Danish veterans coming home from Afghanistan, and we plowed in. Uh, as a, a general sort of national effort to help rehabilitate these soldiers. And we came from ballet backgrounds, from movement teacher backgrounds.

So we came in with the physical, that was what we wanted to where we planned to meet them. And suddenly here's these young soldiers who have been blown up. They're missing limbs, they have life changing injuries and coming at them with the physical, um. We quite quickly realized you can't get blown up and not have some kind of psychological repercussions.

So we could have all the fancy pants exercises in the world that could help 'em walk better, but are they gonna fulfill their potential just with a a movement approach? And we were met with people. The first thing you're gonna see when you meet someone is their demeanor. And we were being met with these, these incredible young men who.

We're either very much stuck in a high alert, this rigidity, this, uh, you know, their training is about switching off their emotions. And, and, and here they are post-war, post uh, injury, and they're on very high alert. And then you can meet someone else that's completely dissociated and in freeze and collapse mode.

And we started just to get curious of, is there another way to. Hack into their nervous system somehow as there's something else we can be doing to meet them where they are. And this was really the, the journey of starting to look into resources, starting to look into other ways, another layer of, of learning.

And I think that that began with us coming across, uh, actually, Marie, Jose Bloom's smart spine system. The heat system, right? That was when we were in, in the states and suddenly we were working with a young soldier who was in this very high alert. His fascia was sticky and he was having trouble breathing.

Everything was tight, everything was restricted, and that just sends those signals to the central nervous system of just something's, something's not right. It's creating stress, it's creating anxiety, and we started to play around with this. Heat system that was staying true to our scope of practice. We were still moving somatic approach, but suddenly we saw a softening and suddenly we saw some changes in the glide of his movement, the freedom, the safety, the relaxation, and suddenly we were like, aha, there's something here that we've just created a tool for this guy.

It's like a reset button. And we started to use heat as a kind of a grounding kit for him. And I think when you start to play around with, back to this sort of original question, when you're meeting someone, it starts when they walk through the door, what, how are they holding themselves? What is their, and, and starting that conversation, you, you commented about music sound.

We had a, a soldier who found Metallica the most relaxing music to listen to, which was. Quiet. And I 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: love that because that wouldn't be the assumption. People would say, oh, don't have heavy metal. Have quiet and peaceful. And for someone like myself and probably this soldier, that annoys me more whenever I'm at a spa.

Exactly. I say, can you please turn off that music in this room? That doesn't relax me. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So going back to circle back to the question, the words I'm hearing is, is. Setting up the environment, but changing the environment. So guys, what we talk about from sensory perspective is mm-hmm. Now don't go and just put heat on everybody, right?

But that change in the sensory environment through the skin, the muscles can really change the environment. And I'm, I'm tapping, I'm poking you a little further because what you might think isn't groundbreaking to you is. So it's, what's that first thing when somebody comes in? What's the question you ask?

Do you look at their eyes, their their feet? Um, is it the temperature they're giving off? It's probably different for each person, but what's your intuition? Give the audience something so they don't feel silly with their things. You got any weird things? 

Jojo Bowman: I think the number one thing we do is we watch them walk.

Great. That's the, the first way. Great to gather information from people, would you say? 

Jessie Lee: Yeah. Um, I get, I watch how they move and then I, I ask how they are today. Um, you know, because I love that today, tomorrow, right? So how are you today? And then they might say, you know, that, that they're not having a great day.

Right? Or maybe they were like, well, it's okay. But then I sort of prodded a little bit in what is. What does okay mean? Right? So, um, and that could also be a big question, right? Um, it also depends if they are, uh, pain, pain, uh, whether they're in pain or, um, uh, because then often we will have like a, a pain scale, right?

We will also sort of grade their pain and ask, well, in what way? Or on, on the scale of zero to 10, how is your pain today? Um. We don't always do that. Again, it's a real individual evaluation because we don't want everybody to focus on their pain. So, um, yeah.

Meghann Koppele Duffy: And do you guys have an intake you give prior to sessions?

Jessie Lee: Yes, we do. We have, um, we do have intake. We don't, uh, we've had research with the Danish Wounded Warrior Project all along with the 15 years where we have had intake forms where we fill in pain and fatigue. Um, and we do testing, uh, before and, uh, at baseline. And mid mid, uh, through the, through the, um, program.

Yeah. Program. And then at the end. Um, and we do both, uh, physical testing, which will be gait, and then we also do, uh, different, uh, qualit 

Jojo Bowman: qualitative testing and quantitative testing. And, um, it's just a really nice, a really nice way, not only for us to, because of course as, as we said, we dis we did dive into this in the deep water when we first started doing this work.

So we really wanted to learn by doing, uh, and we were. So lucky that somebody prompted us to put an intervention protocol study alongside this 15 years of work. So it was, so, it was tried and tested. We could measure along the way what was working, what wasn't. Um, and this, these initial conversations we have with them, the, the watching them walk and to have these discussions of, of where, what are your biggest challenges?

We work a lot with goal setting because of course, if somebody after a, a life changing accident. Feels lost in the world. The first thing they need is purpose. The first thing they need is hope. And how do you help someone create purpose? Okay, I'm gonna 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: stop you right there. So that kind of answered question one.

So why, um, why I am prying even further guys is there's so much that goes into trauma and stress, right? I mean, uh, I'm asking you what's the first thing you see and look at? And you're probably thinking, Meg, it depends on the client, right? And I, I get that. But what you just said there was so important is, well, maybe we're figuring out if this person has goals, has hopes, you know, if we go back to behavioral theories, if someone doesn't even think that feeling better is possible, how are they gonna commit?

I also have to pause and point out something that I'm hearing, which I want everybody else to hear, is research is done not to prove yourself. Right. It's to learn. And I love that you two are doing that. That's, I, I joke, my research is to put, I make my work Swiss cheese. I'm trying to poke holes in, I'm always trying to learn more.

So thank you for being part of that learning process and I'm, I'm excited to hear, you know, probably not in this discussion, but in more discussions to hear more about what you've learned and the research. So say, before I go to question two, say more about that building hope and goals, uh, whether it be a big goal or a small goal.

I, I feel like, I feel like this is important. Would you agree? 

Jojo Bowman: Absolutely. We were actually just, uh, yesterday commenting, we were reading the Diane Lee, um, forward of the book, and she's talking very much about these, um, this goal setting, these very specific goals and. This is really the way forward for many people if they don't find that purpose.

So we really sit down and it can be the most mundane goals to begin with. Maybe somebody who's lost a leg wants to be able to go down the stairs and do the laundry. And that's where we're starting on stairs. It's huge and huge. Yeah. It and, 

Jessie Lee: and it's, um, it could even be a even. A, a goal that you would never think of, uh, where we had a soldier who'd lost both his legs and used crutches.

And he said, well, I'd like to learn to zip up my jacket outside when I'm cold, uh, without losing my crutches. So he had to find a way to balance and, and to be able to put the crutches somewhere and zip up the jacket. And I thought, how, how simple is that? I, I would never have thought that as a goal. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Yeah, you just made me think of.

I, I still laugh at it because she's still a client of mine today. A young woman who has cerebral palsy. Um, she another, um, British, uh, export, uh, in the States. Uh, she's one of my clients, works at the un, she's fabulously interesting. Uh, CP is the least interesting thing about her, but I used to see her on Tuesdays and it was always raining in New York City.

And I looked at her because she walks with the two crutches, and I said to her, I go, Hey. What do you do in the rain? Like half kidding. But like I was really curious. And you know what she said to me? I get wet, Megan. And I said, okay, that's a problem. Is that something you wanna work on? And she's like, yeah, it would be nice.

My hair looks a mess. And it was just something I never thought of. She can't hold an umbrella and thank you for bringing that to my attention and everybody's attention. 'cause sometimes we think we have these to have these big extravagant goals. And sometimes I have goals is just getting one thing accomplished today.

Jojo Bowman: Exactly. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: I think we all have bad days, don't we? I joke. My goal is when I'm having a bad day, little depressed, little anxious little all things is just do one load of laundry. You did one thing today, right? 

Jojo Bowman: Yeah. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: So 

Jojo Bowman: absolutely. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Let's all, how about we all commit to making the smallest goal possible for ourselves?

Everybody right now who's listening, se we'll all take a pause, set a goal up for yourself today and make it small. Exactly. I love it. It's those, 

Jojo Bowman: those, so I'm gonna go ahead. Yeah, I was just gonna say, it's just, it is those small successes that build the confidence back to being a whole person again, never underestimate what one per, there isn't.

You know, everyone has their own wishes, their own hopes, and all we can do is support. That journey. That's kind of our job to support that journey and to help 'em see the successes. I mean the, I love that supporting the 

Jessie Lee: journey. And, go ahead. Yeah, sorry. Most of the people, uh, that we see, uh, come from, um, their, their, their primary rehab and at the hospital.

And, um, at that point they've kind of been declared stationary, which is, um, a word that's often used here as the patient can no longer progress. And so at that point, limiting beliefs. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: That's my biggest pet peeve. 

Jessie Lee: Yeah, so they've, they've lost their, their hope in a way. And, and we're the sort of the next step, right?

Is there, is there something that we perhaps could do? And um, and often, you know, if, if it comes to like a, a prosthetic it, they can walk, but it's not, can they walk better? Right? Can you improve that gait? Can you improve their, their daily function? Can you improve their whole wellbeing and their quality of life?

And so I really think it is a big task because they come from that, that they feel like there is no more hope. And and that's a big task to lift that slowly. Yeah. And what's interesting 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: that, that's a problem I see in US healthcare. Um, I'm sorry. It's also a problem in Danish healthcare. I think it's, I say this constantly stop setting limiting belief for people.

I don't want my clients just walking again. I want them walking. I want this to be a chapter in their story, not the whole story. So, um, I am just, um, on behalf of the Danish people, of the American people, I'm gonna talk about resources for other countries to help their military. But, um, thank you for your work.

So I'm gonna jump to question two, which is gonna combine both of your worlds. Now. Um, I'm not a dancer. I did dance as a kid. But if you watched me move, you would never confuse me with a ballerina, just to be clear. But I do know a little bit about the dance world 'cause of working in Pilates. And what's interesting to me is Pilates and military team verse individual, the military, it's all about the greater good and working as a team.

There's not one hero. Where sometimes in ballet and other sports, like tennis, individual, it can be very individualized. So what lessons do you think your work in the military can better inform the ballet, the Pilates, the tennis world, the individualized sports?

Jessie Lee: I, I would sort of to begin with, turn it around because. When we, uh, initially began with the soldiers, I think many thought, well, what can you as ballet dancers bring to the soldiers? Right. Love it. And, and yeah, that was sort of, and, and I mean, it did begin with that. We, we went into the hospital and offered our services.

Right. It was voluntary work and, and, uh. I think they were a little skeptical. They like looked at us a little skeptical. Yeah. And they were like very skeptical. They thought Pilates was, was something like, uh, ladies and a ball, right? Mm-hmm. And so fair. That's fair. Right? Two, yeah. Two soldiers decided to join.

Um, and because they had nothing to lose was what they said. And, um, I think that, uh, I think it, it soon changed that actually the worlds are quite similar. Yeah. Um, the ballet world and the military world, we're both used to working hard. Having discipline is a, is a big thing in the ballet world, the classical ballet world, and also in the military world.

And we like to to work, we like to use our bodies. And, um, and it's sort of also very closed world. The ballet world's very closed. Um, and, and sometimes I find even a little bit out of touch with reality and in a way. Military is also very closed, right? Um, yeah. And it's its very own sphere. And so I think we actually connected very well.

Jojo Bowman: Um, we actually, when we began our voluntary work, uh, we didn't have any money, so we were borrowing the, the gym at the theater. So we were going to the hospital, picking up the guys wheelchairs in the back off to the theater, uh, up we'd go to the gym and, uh. There would be often dancers still hanging out with their feet in buckets of ice.

'cause they had blisters and in come these guys with no legs. And it was this two worlds kind of meeting with this weird respect for each other of just like suddenly the feet came out, the, or the, the, the ice water. And sort of, should we be, should we go, should we stay? And, and, but quite quickly we were very fascinated by each other.

And that is where we really met on a physical front. 'cause we just got down on the floor and started. Working the hell out of them. And then they were like almost laughing at the beginning and then they get down there and be like, oh my God, this is really hard. And they start sweating and we, so it was so interesting and I love that.

'cause 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: ballet, I think dancers to me, I think. Full on athletes there. Right. It's so hard. And I love how you flipped the question around, I asked the question hoping you would, uh, not flip the question around, uh, not, and I didn't want it. Not that it felt like it needed to defend the palat of the ballet community, but I love how you were like, yeah, well I think there was a great marriage there.

So I love the nuance and also. Imagine those soldiers seeing those feet come out of that ice bucket. Mm-hmm. And seeing how, um, I've seen some professional dancers feet, um, they look very painful. Would that be a good way to describe that?

Yeah. Yeah. And so, but I love how you then kind of brought it together and. Brought that community of military and got, getting the dancers and the military together and finding common ground rather than us versus them. 

Jojo Bowman: Exactly. Yeah. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Right. I feel like we could, we could, we could use a little bit more of that in this world across the board.

Yeah, absolutely. 

Jojo Bowman: Absolutely. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: And did a lot of of the ballet dancers want to get more involved or vice versa? 

Jojo Bowman: Absolutely. Um, I mean, in fact a bit of a sidetrack, but there ended up being a whole performance created at the Royal Danish Ballet that, uh, involved three of the, of our wounded warriors that we were working with.

Actually brought them, um, created a production with us telling their story through movement. Uh, and they were part of the performance as well. So it was, uh, it was quite a. Uh, so many things have come from, have been born from this work. It's quite crazy and it was such a privilege to be part of that performance.

Uh, uh, a very separate, um, thing, obviously on the side, but, but Interesting. No, it's amazing that it, 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: yeah. I'm gonna let this go in a, a different direction. What I love that you pointed out as well is we started out with nothing. We, we kind of had to convince people. Uh, I laugh. Same with the neuro studio in, in the beginning.

Um, uh, people always see the final product and the success and not know how much free sweat equity was put into that. So I'm gonna completely change question three. Based off what we're talking about is your work is very powerful. Your work is helping a lot of people, and I know a lot of people in the movement industry.

Are trying to find a niche that they, they, that lights them up and they really love. Right? And my initial question was gonna be about collaboration versus competition, which we'll talk about. But here's this thing. They might say, well, Jojo and Jessie are already doing this. How can you give some advice on teachers, maybe in, you know, France or in the US who were like, I wanna help our military.

Any advice on how to get started and share the ugly, the hard too, you know, how, how would someone get started? Maybe. 

Jessie Lee: I think it's also very properly different from country to country, um, as I know that. Building that bridge into either the medical world for, as a Pilates teacher or a military world is, is certainly not an easy one.

And uh, I think when we think back it was, uh, it was a little bit by chance and that we met a doctor, uh, at the hospital when we offered our services, who was a little skeptic at first, but still open. Um, and which was your famous line, jojo? Right. What did you say to the doctor? Oh, she gotta 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: share the line now.

What's the line? 

Jojo Bowman: Well, after giving, I gave a whole speech spiel beforehand about the wonders of Pilates and what it can do. But when I felt like I was kind of losing him a bit and he, I remember he turned his screen around and showed me and showed us some very gruesome images of legs being amputated and this, that, and the other.

And we were trying to find some common ground. And then I just said, you know, at the end of the day, even if we get the hos, the guys out of this. Hospital environment and into the theater to see some hot chicks in tight clothing. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: What 

Jojo Bowman: can 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: go wrong? Put a smile on their face at least, and no. Well, you, you met them where they're at.

I love that. It's sometimes guys trying to convince people. What you do is, hold on, what do we have in common? And I always say this to my mentees, is we've, we're solving a problem. Don't give them all the, the background and stuff like that. How am I gonna solve a problem? These guys need guys, men and women need help.

They need hope. Maybe they need to look at a hot chick or man to motivate them. Whatever it takes. You guys did it. Yeah. And keep asking people until they say yes. So, uh, Jessie, I thought you were gonna go and it was a bit of luck and I was gonna say, don't you minimize your hard work. I won't allow it.

Right. But I But it is chance, right? It, it was a lot to do with Charles. There is chance. 

Jojo Bowman: Yeah, but there's also, but not taking no for an answer. If that doctor said no, you would've asked someone else. Right. Exactly. And at the end of the day, that's what it's about. And that was, that would be what I'd say to other movement teachers that want to get into this.

It's about passion. It's about wanting to help people, and it's about daring to dive in. We didn't know what we were doing in the beginning. We, we had a, a, a, a good foundation that we'd learned through our education and working with the everyday clients. We didn't know anything about amputees or about multiple traumatic injuries.

Nothing. I remember our first session on the reformer, one of the soldiers' legs got like caught in the. For springs and we're on our hands and knees looking at each other going, what the fuck? But we, you know, but you figure it out and, uh, and if there's a will, there's a way. Um, and I think as you know, from your work when you're working with, with people, that it's more than just the movement side of things.

It's helping people transform their lives. Assisting them to find these kind of resets, to find these, um, grounding kits to move forward and, and, and, and being part of that journey, investing in that journey. And really everyone we've met through the work that we've done, we all meet. On a level of passion is what I would say is you have to have that drive.

'cause you, you know, if you're doing four years, five years of voluntary work, if, if there's no drive there, you're, you're going to give up after, you know, uh, if it's all about. So, passion number 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: one, a hunger to learn. Yeah. And not taking no for an answer. There you 

Jessie Lee: go. And, and curiosity, being curious. That's it.

You know, we were curious. Do you guys, we were. Go ahead. Sorry. Yeah, we, we were curious about, for, for me, I was really curious about how it would be, um, to use Pilates and bring it back to, um, well its origins for soldiers and, and uh, you know, and I really was curious 'cause it wasn't, it wasn't really at that point, uh, used that much for soldiers.

Um, you know, certainly, um. In, um, in the States it has been used and, and also in Israel. Um, but yeah, we had this ni wonderful collaboration 

Jojo Bowman: through our eagerness to learn our curiosity that we, through Elizabeth Larkin, we start to collaborate with San Diego Navy Hospital and in Tel Aviv with Hadda Schwartz, with, uh, at the Disabled Veteran Organization.

Learning, learning, sharing, sharing. Um, so. Yeah, 

Jessie Lee: it's really about reaching out. You've gotta be curious. You've gotta be, you've gotta reach out. And like you say, if you don't, if that door doesn't open, is there another door? And sometimes that's the way in. And then it's sort of like a bit like a ball that then starts rolling because there's also calmer in it, right?

You are, you're sending out that energy, you're sending out that good karma. You really wanna do that. You wanna help, you wanna, you're curious, you wanna do the work and. I think that also attracts good people in the end, other good people who wanna also help and do the work. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Yeah. So I don't know if you guys know this, I apologize to my audience if they've heard the story 20 times.

'cause it's a question I often get asked in podcasts. But my first MS client, a physical therapist called me, do you work with ms? And at 24 years old, I was like, yeah, of course I work with ms. And then I had a Google. What is Ms. I'm now 43. Again, created protocols, done all the study and the research, but it started out with just being curious.

And I share that with you guys because just because you don't know anything right now doesn't mean you can't continue to learn. And um, I didn't know that about Jojo and Jessie as well. So don't be afraid of trying things and admitting what you don't know and what you do know, because we all know we all.

Don't know a lot more than we do know. Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And have some damn fun along the way. Losing a limb, being through a traumatic accident or situation. Um, and trauma looks different for everybody. You know, sometimes we think big military explosions. Um, sometimes it could be just a diagnosis, which we deal with a lot.

It's very traumatic. Mm-hmm. So, um. The third question was again, to be how to foster collaboration over competition. And I loved it because my business partner is Mariska, so I sometimes say Eminem and now you guys are j and JI love it. And any advice on, listen? Mariska and I have been partners since, uh. I think fully in 2013, 2014.

But we've been working together longer. Um, we agree a lot. We disagree a lot, but we communicate. Um, I love seeing other female groups, male, female, whatever. I just love seeing female collaboration especially. Um, had you guys get together? 

Jojo Bowman: Oh, we have a, a long history going back through, uh, being ballet dancers.

Uh, that's. Started probably when I was 16 or something. I was in the school, she was in the company in England. You went to Hamburg? I was in Berlin with the Berlin Ballet and then we were actually colleagues in the Roy Danish Ballet for many years. Um, only knowing each other in that way. And Jessie went on in into opening the first Pilates and Onic studio in, in Denmark.

And it wasn't until I started to do my education. Um, Pilates education. Pilates education. Yes. Once I retired from the theater or during the, my last years as a dancer, that then this project fell on our lap. And this is really the crossroads moment where we came together because I felt very out of my depth when I was the one, I was originally the one that was approached about going to the hospital and I was like, shitting my pants.

I'm like, this, this is not, I'm terrified. Uh, so I asked Jessie if she would. Be my advisor or would at least come with me to the hospital. 'cause she was very busy, she was writing a book. She had small kids and, oh please, please, will you come with me? And it was that moment standing at the hospital, meeting these young guys where we were like, there is no way we're not doing this.

We are, we are jumping in, we're doing it. So, um, 

Jessie Lee: it was a real pivotal moment. You know how you look back and you know, there's that moment when suddenly your life takes another path. And that was that day. I remember we came out, I remember. Like it was yesterday and it was that moment of like being very hit by seeing these young men who had missing limbs and they were 21, and I have sons.

And it, it was very emotional and I just remember said, Jojo, I don't know what this will, where we're going, what we're gonna do with this, but I'm in and, and we'll do this in whatever way. And I don't think if we had even considered. All the many bumps that we had have had along the road. Right. Which is 15 years now.

Probably good with it. The bumps fun. The 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: bumps make it, the bumps make us better, right? Yeah. Yeah. It, it's so funny, I, I had a student once thinking about joining our neuros studio mentorship, and he said to me, I'm worried. I, I tend to get excited about things, but I, I sometimes have trouble following through.

And I feel like I don't finish things all the time. And I said, I know. Same. I said, the neuro studio is the first project that felt like this is it, where every other project, I don't know about you. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna do this for now, for now. And always looking for the next step and finding your passion in what I call your zone of genius.

Guys don't give up until you find it. Some people never find it in their lifetime. Um, I was lucky to find it at 26. Um, I'm not gonna ask your age 'cause I think that might be rude. I don't know. But uh, when we, when we find it, we find it. And I just wanna encourage all the teachers. If you're not loving what you're doing, but there's something you wanna go do, do it.

Right? 

Jessie Lee: Mm-hmm. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Absolutely. Life is too short. Oh 

Jessie Lee: my God. I think there's so many forces out there. There's so many courses out there, go ahead. That, that, you know, could be, uh, investigated. I mean, whatever that you as a teacher, uh, might find interesting investigated. I, we have also an in-house education here and, and I always say to the students, you know, now you have the basis and if there's anything particular that you really, it could be, uh, you know, Pilates for breast cancer or blind people, or, um, it can be so many, there's so many causes that could really benefit.

From what Pilates has to offer. 

Jojo Bowman: Mm. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: I love that. Uh, we have a group of our level three teachers right now are really embarking on bringing these neuro techniques that provide safety and stuff to the dance community. And, uh, they post some things, um, on social media and it's so beautiful to watch them move 'cause they're such beautiful movers.

But the, the thing that always comes back to me is they say, I wish I knew this when I was a dancer. Hmm. And I remind them, I go, yeah, but look at what you're, the bigger effect you're going to have. So I love that you guys are encouraging your students take this and do what you want. Hmm. Any other cool interests you guys are looking at?

Are you kind of staying with this kind of military amputee or you looking at other things that are getting you excited these days? 

Jessie Lee: It is important to note that, um, through the work, uh, with the, with the, uh, ment Warriors project, we've also, we are using the same, let's say, our experience and our, and the movement vocabulary that we've built up, uh, with civilians.

So it's, it's by no means that we only work with amputees or, or, uh, soldiers. I mean, now actually it's mostly traffic accidents and, um. Uh, fall injuries and, uh, yeah, many different kind of multi traumatic injuries. So we're using our experience now from, from what we've learned through the project. And 

Jojo Bowman: I also, we've, uh, I think through this many years of working, you know, we did fundraising to get the Danish Wind Warriors, uh, project, uh, up and running.

Did that for years. And then we started to kind of, you know, we'll take one more person, one more funding, one more this. And then we got to a point we're like, okay. We need to start to, how can we help more people? So actually I'd say our, our, our new venture is that we've built our, a new company which we've named being able, uh, which is sort of a double legged branch, so that we are continuing to work with, um, people with multiple traumatic injuries.

But we're also starting to build a slowly in education. Uh, so that we can teach other instructors to do this work because one more person, one more person, uh, isn't gonna make big ripples in the ocean. But if we can start to educate other instructors to go out that have a passion that want to do this work to some level and, you know, doesn't have to be exactly the same as what we are doing, but, um, hoping to sort of share the love in that sense of, of.

You know, we, we've been so fortunate to have these incredible, that's the the one thing working with non-profit organizations, people want to give, people wanna, we've had Elizabeth Larcom here, we've had Karen Inger, we, Marie, her Broome, we've had, um, Alan Herman. We've had these amazing people come and give their resources and work with our participants through, have this whole bag of, of, of knowledge and experience.

And we, we, we are trying to sort through that bag and start to really. Be able to create a methodology that we could teach to other people, uh, and, and share the work in that way. So that's taking up a quite, quite a lot of our time right now. 

Jessie Lee: And also I'm so glad to hear that. Yeah. Making the voluntary work, um, a sustainable business.

Right. So there, yeah. For you for sure. There's, so one thing with voluntary work, right? You can also get burnout because you're just giving so much time on top of trying to make ends meet, um, as a well instructor or studio or whatever you're doing right? And it's, uh, it, that, that is, um, there's, there's only so much you can do at the end of the day, right?

You also have to take care of yourself. So it feels like a good time to really build a sustainable business place. Now we're in our early fifties. There you go. I said it. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Yeah. There you go. Love it. You look good. Not a day over 35. Um, but that's important, and that's something that I, I, I need the teachers, whether you're a pt, whether you're a person who's living, um, post-traumatic accident or amputation, is you are allowed to help people and have a sustainable business.

You know, it's something that took us for years to develop with the neuro studio, and I still see clients all the time, but our efforts are to educate other teachers because it has a broader reach. I can't help everybody. Right? So I love that you guys are doing that. So there's a lot of resources for you guys.

I didn't want this podcast to be about things to do for trauma and stress because I feel like these ladies can offer so much more information. Obviously they are there to teach you the techniques that they use, number one. But if this is something you want to get off the ground or work with a population or stuff like that, is again, in the show notes will be resources.

How you can connect to Jessie and Jojo to learn more about their work, maybe get some advice on theirs, and I'm going to ask my audience to respect their time and expertise. Pay them for their time and expertise if you want to build what they do. You know, because that's kind of the thing is we can ask questions, we can want to help, but we wanna, um, respect the time and energy you've put into this.

And the second point I just wanna summarize for the audience is we're all humans. We all need safety. We all have little traumatic things. Big traumatic things. So don't just think, well, I only have one client who's had a traumatic accident. Maybe that training's not for me. This training, like I say with the neuro studio, it's like everybody's a neuro client.

We all have a brain. So think about how these strategies can work for everybody. So thank you guys for being here for your work. Um, your con. Contributing to this book, and, uh, teachers reach out to them, tag each other in your posts because again, the other reason why I wanted to have jojo and Jessie on is why question two and three, I've been trying to ask all these teachers, how can we get more collaboration and less competition in the movement industry?

How can we light each other up? Your success doesn't diminish mine. It only. Elevates us all. So I appreciate you guys being part of the solution. Thank you so much. Thank you. And I'll end on, give me your f favorite Danish dessert. What do the Danish notice? Oh, I have to, 

Jessie Lee: I will say it in Danish because it's a tongue twister and every, every non Danish person that comes here has to learn it.

So it's called. Fl. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Okay. And it, it did. I am terrible at pronunciation. So you're gonna have to say that again, fl. Okay. I'm not even gonna try to say that, but say more 

Jessie Lee: It, it's basically a red berry porridge with cream. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Delicious. So that is, that is the Danish dessert. I have a sweet tooth. Yes, 

Jessie Lee: that is the Danish dessert.

All right. So we're all 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: gonna go to Denmark and have that dessert that I will not name.

Jojo Bowman: We'll hold you to that. Yes. Um, like 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Yes. Yes. Have you guys had American Oreos? Do you know the Oreo? Oh yeah. Yes. 

Jojo Bowman: Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. I can eat a, I can eat a good Oreo. Yeah. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: Yes. So, um, the, the Tim Tam is the Australian cookie. Have you had a Tim Tam? 

Jojo Bowman: Yeah. My, my husband's actually from New Zealand, uh, so he and lived in Australia, so he's a Tim Tam King of all girls.

Yes, he loves it. 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: But again, you know, the Oreo's a bit more processed. This Danish dessert sounds a little, um, uh hmm. Has, it sounds like it has less chemicals in it than an Oreo. 

Jojo Bowman: Yeah, it'll put hairs on your chest, like true Viking style. There you go. I love 

Meghann Koppele Duffy: it. Well, thank you guys so much. And again, guys, check the show notes.

Reach out to j and j and I will see you on the next episode of Three Questions.