Divorce, Identity, and Co-Parenting: The Mental Health Impact | Therapists Unhinged Ep. 15

For today’s episode, TJ, Nella, and Dr. Robin dive deep into one of the most emotionally charged life transitions: divorce. But this isn’t just about paperwork or custody. It’s about identity, healing, and the children caught in between.

The hosts share hard-earned insights from personal experience and years of therapy practice, guiding listeners through what happens to your sense of self when a marriage ends, why co-parenting often starts with parallel parenting, and how to protect your child’s emotional world, even when yours is falling apart.

Whether you’re in the thick of divorce, navigating custody, or supporting someone else, this episode offers honest, unfiltered wisdom to help you find clarity, calm, and confidence again.

IN THIS EPISODE

• Divorce is not just a breakup. It often brings an identity crisis.
• Many people lose themselves in the role of spouse or parent and don’t know who they are outside of it.
• Letting go of anger is essential for healing and personal growth.
• Divorce is grief. It’s normal to cycle through anger, sadness, confusion, and numbness.
• Just because someone was a bad partner doesn’t mean they’re a bad parent.
• Children should never be used as emotional crutches or messengers during divorce.
• Parallel parenting is a powerful tool when cooperative co-parenting isn’t possible.
• Kids feel the energy. Protecting their nervous system should come before “winning.”
• Don’t compare your children’s reactions. Every child processes divorce differently.
• Boundaries are essential, especially when toxic communication happens through phones or text.
• Support your kids’ autonomy. One day they’ll reflect on how you handled this.

BEST MOMENTS

1.05 “You can actually lose your own identity during divorce.”
7.18 “Divorce is grief… It’s going to be an emotional roller coaster.”
10.59 “When I stopped being angry at my husband, I swear my healing was so much faster.”
15.26 “Just because you’re divorced doesn’t mean that person suddenly became a bad parent.”
21.28 “You are playing Russian roulette with your child when you talk bad about their other parent.”
22.54 “Your primary goal should be to protect your child’s nervous system.”
26.47 “Co-parenting takes two. Parallel parenting works when one of you is still stuck in conflict.”
42.23 “This will be a drop of sand in your life. What matters is the relationship your child will have with you later.”
48.40 “I never wanted my child to say, ‘Why didn’t you stand up for me?’”

Transcript

0:00

Let's say your husband wins everything in court because he has, you know, the 50 something thousand dollars lawyer. Okay, let him take everything. If he took everything from you. He could never take you as a parent and take your identity. If you're going through it and you're starting to have all that anger and resentment. Try your best to let it go, because that's not going to help you heal. And if your journey is to heal and find yourself, letting go of the anger is the biggest thing. And for me, and from what I see, is when they let go of the anger, they. So welcome everyone to episode 15 of Therapist's Unhinged welcome. So today we're talking about a pretty important topic, and that's about divorce and co-parent. Teen and the kids. Because let's get real, divorce isn't just about okay, I'm breaking up the family, right? You can actually lose your own identity during divorce. So we're going to get into that a little bit. And, you know, definitely talk about the mental health piece, but you kind of focus on, you know, the children involved and how, you know, kind of just going through your identity. So obviously, I mean, just to start. What does it do to people like what we have, like with clients, going through initially, like, who are they? Especially when they've been with this person for ten, 20, 30 years. Sometimes I frequently hear that people don't know who they are anymore because they were the wife, they were the mom. They were involved in this family. And now they're like, lost. Absolutely. So I know that. I see that as a big, you know, thing. People coming in here for, you know, women, man, they don't know how to process and figure out who they are. So and I think it's a lot of it is to like it depends on your age. Yes, definitely. Because I mean, in our age, we've seen a lot of people that they went to school, got married. So they've been married. That's been their whole adult life. And then a lot of times what I see is it's when the empty nest happens and now they're going, everything's changed. Roles have changed who they are, like you said. And they don't they don't have any idea who they are and they don't have, you know, so everything is just, a mess. But I also, unfortunately, think it brings out the worst in people. You're right. And that's where I hear a lot of, like, oh, I don't even know who that person was or this, you know, this is someone different that I'm divorcing and and things like that. Absolutely. That is so true. And, you know, I see a lot of that too, especially in our age range where they lose their identity because they placed it in the spouse, they placed it in the kids, you know, you know, attending all the kids activities and different things like that. And then when the kids go off to college, there's nothing in between the two spouses but space. The kids aren't there to distract, the kids aren't there to go to the basketball game, the cheerleading, you know, games and all those different things. And they don't know how to navigate as to empty nesters. So a lot of, you know, things that they didn't have to focus on. Now it's in the room and they have to focus on it and they don't know how. Yeah. How do you normally begin like with a client like that. Like saying like let's say they've been married 20 years. I've had a lot of clients recently. It's very strange. It's kind of all at once when they got married young, got married, you know, very young, in their late teens or early 20s, and now they're 40s and 50s and they're like, I don't I don't even know what to do. Like, I don't know what to do. What do you usually say? Like, how do you start that or what do you suggest? I suggest we do, a lot of self-development, like because it's almost like a rebuilding, right? A rebuilding or, you know, a re manifesting or re resurfacing. Right? Because you get lost in a whole bunch of stuff. So if your identity is, it's in there, but it's like pared down because of everything else that's been on it. So it's like digging deep. So we unpack the suitcase in the room. Okay. You got your suitcase in here. Let's unpack it. You know, what are some things that you've always wanted to do? That maybe because you got married and had kids. You couldn't do. And sometimes they'll go, oh, I don't know. Because, you know, my, my husband was or my wife, was my whole life. And so when you break that apart for them and say, okay, no, no, no, let's just start here. Let's start with one, two, three or ABCd and then let's start putting it back together. So we talk we talk about interest. What things? Interesting. Well, before you got married, what were your interests? Did you, you know, actually meet the did you do those things that you were interested in or did you put them on the backburner? And it doesn't matter if you did put it on the backburner, of course, because when you have family, sometimes you do have to put, you know, your things on the backburner. So we talk about the goals, talk about what their interests are, what what would you like to do? You know, what do you look forward to doing it. And you start there and develop, you know, in that area. And then we start to build on that so that we they could discover who they really are outside of or after the divorce. I like that. I was going to say I actually am working with, a wonderful family. And, and it's funny because a lot of times because, you know, I do I like to do the individuals and the couples and sometimes it doesn't always happen. It always happens. It's strange. And it's like I'll have one that presents and things. It's this. But then, oh no, it's the marriage. And then this is and actually we're finally on the other side of it. And what I have seen, kind of like what you said is that I'm now having to go, wait a minute, wait a minute. You were different people over here like and to say like, oh, this never happened or oh, this in here because they start to discover, oh, but I wanted this and I wanted this, and he's not given me or she's not. I go, oh, I've got to slow down. I said, because the roles that you played, you did get all of that. And, and like you said, and then I do a lot of like and you were raising your kids and that's, that's what you were doing. And nothing is better than that. But this is for you now. And so even when I get them in and we do some of the, relational stuff, you can see how again, we talked before about, you know, patterns. And I said in their patterns of behaviors, no. And communication styles no longer fits where they are and they even and that they're not realizing how nothing works at this point in time. And so even with that, it's like and I do a lot of reframing redirect and I'm going, yes, but this did happen and that did happen. And you guys are still together and, you know, and it's almost like when it gets quiet, they're like because they've been like, you know, we can handle the turmoil or distractions. You know, they don't even realize that's what it is. And, you know, now it's just quiet and you get to just be. And they go, but be what it's like, what what are we being? Or if they are retired or what. Now what the heck is that? Like they don't have to live. I know that transition is so hard. And, you know, for me, like usually if they come in at that point of, you know, divorce or something, it's it's like I noticed that, you know, divorce seems like it's an emotional rollercoaster and you don't know where that person is on that roller coaster when they're coming into the office. Are they on that, like super angry and that side of the grief site? Because really, divorce is grief. And I tell people, I tell people that it's like, okay, you're going to go, you're going to grieve. So you're going to have those stages of anger, you know, resentment, sadness, all of those things. So I just try to see, okay, hey, this is going to be an emotional roller coaster. Like there's no way around that. I mean, what percentage of peaceful divorce do you see out there? Like very small to where it doesn't, you know, affect you emotionally. So I just tell them, yep, you're on the roller coaster. Here we go. Hold on tight. Let's see. You know how you're going to go through all those things. You know highs highs highs. You're going to feel start feeling great. And then something's going to happen. You're going to go low. So I just meet them where they are and see okay we're right here. You're on a high right now okay. You're going out dating. You're liking to see who you are identity wise. Okay, good. I'm glad you're at that space. Have you processed though, where you have you gone back? Like where? Where did you start in this, you know. Right. So it really just depends. But I mean, like overall you're it doesn't matter if you were married really five years or 20 years, you're having to redevelop who you are. Absolutely. And I know one thing you said is kind of like, what did they do beforehand before? Like what was their behaviors and stuff before? But it doesn't really matter because this is going to be a whole new discovery of who you are without your spouse, you know, without being an intact family anymore. What about your dreams? Maybe your dream dreams was the white picket fence and you thought you guys were gonna be together forever, right? Because that's why people get married normally. And that didn't happen. So it's like your dreams and every reality is crossed, you know? So. Absolutely. That's one thing that I see a lot. Yeah. And as I say, like, even like what you said about the identity is that somebody said to me, well, he goes, well, I'm starting over. Okay. Like, but why are we upset? I mean, this clearly and a lot of times that too. And I think there's a lot of blame and shame and really trying to see. And I said, listen, I said everybody had a part in this. And I said, you can continue to point out, but if you don't point in, you're going to repeat the process. I said, useful change, little figureheads and everything. And so even with that, I mean, there is so much self-reflection and sometimes not and sometimes not, you know. The ones that heal the best and the fastest are the ones that do have self-reflection. Absolutely. You know, and and, you know, even personally speaking, you know, I've gone through divorce. I'm pretty transparent about it. And married like 15 years. And it's one of those things to where it took my journey was it took maybe some time to start instead of pointing the finger at everything he did wrong, it was pointing inward and having to do that. But I realized that once I was able to see my take on it and you know, my part in it, you know, things I was responsible and not responsible for, right? And it was able to just like, it's almost like clarity, like you start to feel like, like, okay, I made these choices because of x, y, z. These were my choices even though I was young. Yeah. I was, you know, 17 when I met them. I was very young, very naive. But it's just it brings so much clarity. So if I can encourage any, you know, client out there, babies listeners out there is that, you know, if you're going through it and you're starting to like, have all that anger and resentment try your best to let it go, because that's not going to help you heal. And if your journey is to heal and find yourself, letting go of the anger is the biggest thing. And for me, and from what I see, is when they let go of the anger. Yeah, it's like dang. Like I'm good when I start. Stopped being angry at my husband. Like, I swear by healing, like way faster. Yeah, yeah. And healing looks different for every person. And then sometimes I know that you get, you know, you get stuck in a cycle because you if you have smaller children. And I'm not saying that if the kids are grown or off to college, you see, it's any easier. But with with the smaller kids, it can be a lot harder to because you're in, you know, a custody battle, you may be in a custody battle or, you know, you have to decide, well, who gets the kids on these holidays. And they're and it can be a never ending cycle. But you're right. If you start to, you know, do the inner healing, you know, especially for yourself, then it helps your kids as well. Because sometimes that anger and you know, all of those emotions spill over into the kids. And now they have to struggle with those same issues. And remembering that even though it is a very hard time, you know, it's not just about you or your spouse, but if you have those kids, it's about those kids too, and how they. Feel, because that's a really good point is, you know, if you do have children in it, whether they're young or whether they're teenagers, they're going to go through their own grief. They're going to have to heal as well, because their reality just changed. And the thing that I see the the hardest is that it's out of their control, right? It's the adults that are making these decisions that children don't get to have a voice in it. So one thing that I see that hurts the children hurts relationships between mom and children and dad and children is when you're not giving them any voice in anything. So now they have to choose because you're angry at your ex and now you're like, well, you're your mom is it's not her day. I don't care if you have this in this in this going on. It's my day, it's my time. And it's like, what about what your child wants, right? This is where I say, let go of the anger. Because if you let go of the anger and focus on your child, to me that's the number one. Absolutely, absolutely. And so I actually am doing this now because of my divorce. And Reagan was three. And so I, girl, you were saying and I, I know it was devastating because there was such a lack of control, even when and you're trying to do the right thing. And a lot of times you don't know what the right thing is, and especially if you've had, you know, someone that wasn't really there, but then you feel like and you're trying to and you're trying to navigate and you know, doing this, I do a lot of research and all of it, you know, I know you do a lot of reading of your application. Where do family mediations and stuff. And so first thing I tell my parents or whoever it is, is do your research, do your research, understand the law. You know, I say again, I said, there's there's no room for emotions and a court of law. I said, law is law. Does family law belong in a court system? Not really, because it's all emotional. But you know, I had a wonderful attorney and, you know, he really walked me through it. But, I mean, I let them come and they give me the emotions and we can talk them through. I said, because, you know, you got to go in there and remember what it's about. I said, but even with that, I said, this is not your children's fault. And I said, it is not their place to carry, you know, your burden. And I said, but you got to remember, they're also half of that person. So if you're speaking ill of your husband or your wife, your child's taking that on because they are half of the husband or the. Wife, and then they feel like that tug, like they're in the middle. Absolutely. It's not fair. It's just not fair at all. And I see it so much, you know, especially I mean, that is what I specialize in is I love doing child custody stuff and, and reunification and things like that. And, you know, partly because of my passion, because of my own experience, you know, kind of brought me into that field, but also because I know what it can do to these kids. I've seen it happen. And so, like, if I tell any parents going through this is, you know, don't use your child as an emotional crutch, not, do not, you know, tell your child what's going on, you know, adult conversation, stay adult conversations, even if you're angry. That's when you go and vent to your therapist or you go into your girlfriend. That is who you meant to, you know? And I get it. It's hard. It's not easy. Been there. See it. It's not easy to hold. Hold. Poker face, you know? But you have to put those kids feelings and and desires first and what is best for them. And and just remember, I like to tell people this too is if, if they were in an intact family and let's say both parents were involved in the child's life, like going to football games. Go in here, go in there. So just because you're divorced, how does you get in divorce all of a sudden? Make that person a bad father or a bad mother? It doesn't make them a bad maybe make them about wife or husband and that's fine. Have them be a terrible wife or husband. But did that was that parent a bad parent? You have to think about that and separate it or you may not like them. They need be a narcissist and maybe this and that. But at the end of the day, do they love those kids? They want to be in their life? Okay then. So they can still be a shitty person or shitty husband or wife and be in those. Kids, right? Because if they've never put the kids in harm's way or do things that you know, that the kids, that is risky, you know, for the kids, then I agree with it. And sometimes because you're holding on anger so you don't see that, but you know, because I was gonna say cooperative co-parenting is the thing and it can work, you know, because I do have, you know, just even personally, like, I, I've never been through a divorce, but my daughter, she went through a divorce and out of the marriage, you know, my granddaughter, my middle granddaughter. Is that, like, stuck in the middle. And I've always told them, look, I don't care what y'all got going on, and I don't care how you handle it, I honestly don't. But when it starts to affect her, that I have a problem with it because she should be able to love you out loud and love him out loud and there should be no cross-contamination on it. And that's how it should be, because sometimes we, you know, you get caught up in the will, you know, you love him. And I had a client or family and the mom saying, well, he loves her. He loves him more than he loves me. And it's like, it's not about that. It's about both of both of you being loved by the child who you all created, who has nothing to do with what's going on between the two of you and that's where it needs to stay between the two of you, you know? Yeah, because that's what I tell them. I said marriage is a choice. Parenting is forever. Yeah. You chose this person. Hey, don't say that. You know, whatever. And a lot of times you, you said something earlier about like you know holding on to that anger. One thing I do hear myself working with them is that they get. So I wasted this or I did what I go. But did you know, I said, think about it. Did you go into this marriage thinking about being divorced? No, you. But you can't put this over there. You did what you did because you wanted to, you know, or sometimes. Or maybe because you want to. Do or it was the right thing to do. That's what I'm saying. So. But but holding on to that and then shaming yourself for that. Because if I go but again, that's not going to help anything because that's going to keep you stuck over here is part of your healing. Learn from it, learn from it. But again, it goes back to that, you know, now, let me ask you all this. How would you handle this coming to you? Because you're you're a court lady. So let's say that, we have a situation with a custody issue and, and which we've seen to where parents are now trying to use the therapist or. Yeah. Like, you know. Yeah. How do you. Yeah. You know, and that's the thing too, is that, you know, I love that parents choose to put their kids in therapy during divorce, even if they don't look like they're having a hard time. They probably are in some way. Maybe they're suppressing it. And I see that. And then it comes out five years later and then you're like, oh my God, what happened? And he never processed his feelings and emotions. So put your kids in therapy. If you're going through a divorce, just to say like just to kind of test it out and let that be an outlet for them. But another thing is, is don't use the therapy as a tool, as a weapon, so that you can use it against your spouse in court. First of all, in our practice, we do not have we have a zero tolerance for that zero tolerance of saying, okay, well, I want the records for the last, you know, five sessions because I want to show my attorney, but no, these children's rights need to be protected and this needs to be a safe place for them. And if your agenda is to use your child's emotions and feelings and outlet as a tool, as a weapon, you need some self-reflection. You need to look in the mirror because I will call you out and I instruct people to call them out. Like that is a zero tolerance thing. Now, if your child is in danger or having, you know, thoughts of harm, self-harm, anything dangerous, let's say they said, oh, you know, mom's burning me with a cigaret or something like that. Of course we're going to notify you, but if it's just their outlet and letting them express themselves, I mean, maybe they hate mom one day and maybe they hate dad the other. You don't need to know that. They're good. They can. They're ready to share with that with you when they feel like it. Or when we feel as a therapist, it's the right time to share that. But yeah, that's one thing that I see. We see it all the time in our practice therapists, and we just immediately say, no, it's not happening because it is about that child. And if you want that time to go to therapy, then let them go to therapy. Let that be with the therapist. And and see and I of course we know it, but I think that that is because we do. We have a lot of people that come in and they don't know. They really don't know. And I know they're hurt and everything. And I know when we onboard some of our new clinicians and stuff, we say, you know, if there's ever anything I said, we got to really, you know, protect these kids and pretend they're all hurting, you know. And I said, but and that is one thing I know. I say, I call this first and foremost. I said, I will always advocate for your child. I said, you all are adults. You all are grown. They don't really, I said, but they have me. I said, you know what? And this is what we're going to do. So but you know, and that's why I said, I mean, of course we know what we do. But, you know, I think that that was important because I think a lot of people, they don't understand, they don't. You know, and I think to also that's important when you do have a, you know, a client who they're a minor client and their parents are going through a divorce. You know, I bring both the parents in also and I don't share with them what we talk about in session. But like you said, and all of the things that they need to know, I share with them, such as if one parent is bashing another parent in front of the child and they're having, you know, their emotions are all over the place and they're like a mess in my room. And I'll tell them, I go, look, you guys, I use this example for many of my, clients. I go, okay, that's a busy, dangerous highway out there. Like right there opening up at level planning. The causeway is very busy. It's almost like one parent is standing where the Wawa is, and the other parent is standing on the other side, and you have your kid blindfolded and one parent has their child here, and you push that kid out enough, and they run expecting not to get hit, trying to make it over to dad and vice versa. I said, that is what you guys are doing to your kid. You're playing Russian roulette, expecting the bullet not to hit them. And it does every time. I, you know, like that. Analogy because. They don't realize it. And one parent, she actually sat in my room and she was like, I never thought about it like that. I go, that's what happens when you talk about dad in front of him, and when dad talks about him in front of you and he's in here trying to figure out what to do with all of that that you guys have in him. And it's not fair. No, I like that. That's very true. You are playing Russian roulette with your child doing that. And even as those even those bullets don't hit him, it's freezing them. Absolutely. He's getting away from it. Every time you have that curse word about your dad or your mom, they're feeling it. And one thing I want to, you know, reiterate with parents out there is that it's not your job. You're not your primary goal is to win an argument with your ex. Your primary goal should be to protect your child's nervous system and to protect your child. Absolutely. And and that's the thing is, if you stay focused on that and focus on your own healing, things will pan out. Things will settle out, right? Things will eventually be okay. And even if you're dodging the bullets, let yourself dodge the bullets. Okay? If you're dodging these bad things in this and you're trying to stay calm and you're like, okay, I'm going to go visit my therapist every week, then about it, go, go do that. But if you're trying to protect your child and putting that child first, everything else will eventually settle down. And you know what? It's if it looks like, okay, let's say that other person has the money. I know that's a big thing. One person is worth, one person has, or one person has all the money. Okay, but let's say your husband wins everything in court because he has, you know, the 50 something thousand dollar lawyer. Okay? Let him take everything. If he took everything from you, he could never take you as a parent and take your identity if he can't take you. And if someone is that controlling, let's say you are married to someone that's like a narcissist or controlling, has controlling traits. Okay, then they will never be able to take who you are and who you are as a mom. They won't be able to take that from me. So just remember, what is most important to you is it to win an argument is to win in the courtroom, or is it to win for your child and your child financially? Well, and we even know that's what I say, because I have that situation and they're almost on the other side of it. And I've got the, not money side. And and, you know, that side is she goes, I've learned so much, you know, and that's what she said. She goes and I said, do your research, understand? I said, because there are laws, no state of Florida's. Everybody talks about like state of Florida has always been one of the greatest states for child advocacy. And they have changed everything. And there's a lot of things that happen. You know, when you started the 8020, then it was the 40 and then it was, you know, going for the 5050. Now that's where they start from the 5050, like so I'm like, okay, what are we really? But I know you do. You get so terrified of, you know, is going to take my children because I was there, you know, I was there because it was a not a great situation. And I was a lot of fear. And that's what I was told. And isn't that I didn't understand, you know. And so that's what I said. I said, you know, I will I never want anybody to ever go through what I did, you know, ever. Because it was it was awful, you know, a year and a half and not knowing anything. And it was just, you know, so terrifying because you're living in this state of confusion, you know, so even with that, trying to make decisions and so even one that I kind of even tell my I go, but we don't need to make all of these decisions right now. Let's just go back to simple. What are the basic things that we need right now? Just like, let's just go there, you know? Because even with that, sometimes it's, you know. Yeah. And then and then another thing too, about, you know, parenting and, you know, collaborative parenting and co-parenting and then, you know, everyone kind of knows what that means. Like, you're you're kind of you're co-parenting your you may not like the person, but you're doing what's right for the kids. Both of you were on the same page. Well, then there's the parallel parenting. A lot of people are starting to come around of what that means, which is basically if you're dealing with somebody a, an ex and the father, the mother, and they are just you can't deal with them. You like every time everything's a fight and you are done fighting, let's say you've accepted it and you're done fighting, but that other person is not done fighting. That is when you switch from, okay, you're not going to be able to co-parent with this person, right? Because co-parenting takes two people. Parallel parenting though, that is when you're going to go, this way and you're going to do what your part is. You're not going to have expectations that this parent is going to work with you. So what you do is you let them go in their own direction. Yep. And you just keep going your way and you're and they're going to go their way and use this. That's the expectation now being the bigger person and being the bigger parent, if that's which is let's say they do want to now start to co-parent once they've healed, maybe they've gone to therapy. Years go by, time heals, right? You've let go of some of that anger. Then you can read. Maybe you can't co-parent again. But in the meantime, if you can just parallel parent, you're not attacking the other person. You're not having expectations. You're just allowing yourself to be at peace. Absolutely doing because that is key. And I got there. I was able to finally parallel parent as I went through horrible. I can be in the same room as my ex-husband. We can be at the same place. I could talk to him about the kids needs no problem, like I said. Well, how would I think of him as a person is different than who he is in my kids lives, and he is a part of them, and it is what it is. And now we can have total conversation and we're okay. And it is what it is. Now we can co-parent, but the parallel parenting is so good for people who are still in that high emotional state. I agree with it. I like you, I just want to. Say parallel parking. But but yeah, and I've heard of, you know, of course the. Parents even heard that. You know, I go to the park. Perfect. But no, it is because you know what that means, right? Because and especially okay, you are in one household and you know your two household, they may run differently, right? They may run differently. But both households still, you know, keep in mind what is best for the children, right? Because you know, I have parents I like. Okay. So bedtime at your house, you don't mind. Like your kids can stay up till 10:00 at night and maybe at dad's house, they can only stay up to eight. That's his rule. Why is it hurting? Is it hurting the kid? No, because, I mean, the only thing is doing what is absolutely right. So if it's working on both sides, the rules don't have to look the same. They just have to be, you know, the kid just has to have rules. And I want to. And I want to say something to you as, you said like, you know, doing what's best for the kids, you know, there are so many good, good parents out there who look differently as a parent than they do as a person. Right? So just because someone appears to be a shitty person on the outside doesn't mean that they're not going to be a good father or a good mother. To. Their children. Right? So that's one thing too, is like, oh my God, did you see what he did? You know how he acted and all that? Yeah, he was pretty shitty. Like, yeah, I wanted to punch him in the throat. Well, you know what? Here's your kids, like, worse off the ground. His dad walks on that he loves and gets excited to see his dad. And that's the important thing we should. Exactly. So, you know, that's one thing too, is I have like I had and I still have some great parents out there that are in divorces and they're just at each other. And I'm, I see all these, the bad sides of these parents. But I know at the end of the day, they love their kids, even them. And they just the faith that co-parenting. And that's why I try to tell them, do not try to go. You're driving yourself crazy. You are making it worse for yourself and your children because you're going to avenge and saying, oh my God, your dad let you have candy at 10:00, like, that's diculous what kind of parent does that? Yeah. Is that maybe a healthy choice? No. But is there teeth? Right. You don't get to say that. Does everybody. Know? Okay, then, you know, just make sure you go over six months ago. See? What can I say? Like, exactly. Don't sweat the small stuff. Right. Know what I go is like a wait a minute. So if you if he was or she was parenting, you know, y'all still be married. Why all of a sudden do your expectations change when you go? Well, we could go. And I see that all the time. But he shouldn't. She should I go, oh what did they would have already put. Would you all still be together like. But now we have almost like a higher expectation. It's a good point, you know what I mean. And I do and his like with you, sometimes you just listen to him like, oh did you just hear what you did? They don't they don't like what you said. You're like, I never thought about it like that. And then they're like this. Yeah, I guess I just kind of dumb, like know, but it's not. But that's what you're conditioned to. And so but I go, yeah. And he's always been she's why are we surprised. Right. Right. And I think it's really when they start to slip out and stuff about things like this, like that little things that we see as little. But they're taking as big things, you know, as I start to see like, okay, they're coming from a place of anger. Yeah. Then let's dig deep. Where does that anger coming from? Are they fighting you now for finances? Child's for. Is that where you're really so now everything that they do hitting you off and I get it. You know when you don't like somebody, it's hard to have to deal with them. Right? So deal with them less. Don't deal with them as much as possible. Communicate. Get apps. They have my family wizard. Oh girl. I have that on now that. Is. No, no, that's not it. It's all because I have I have a parent. We did. We established a co-parenting plan because at first they were doing the parallel. And I think sometimes they do it. It still just depends. But they were at that point where they were like, okay, we're ready for the co-parenting plan. And they do have the app. They use an app. You they don't really they don't pick up the phone, they don't communicate in crossing of, you know, dropping off and picking up. They communicate through the app and the app that they use and everything that they need, and they're fine with it. That's why I always recommend it when I as soon as I get like almost like a first session, I'm like, would how are you communicating? Oh well with text it. Nope. Let's let's put that off. No, we're going to do you know, instead we're going to do some my family wizard and, and just do that because then if, if one takes them to the doctor and they have a follow up, you don't have to say Johnny's teeth are, are good. His next appointment is that and then some kind of snarky comment. You're just asking for snarky comments, so don't even do it. Put it in there and then it's their responsibility. Everything's in the grades, report cards, whatever it is. Right. Because that's the biggest thing. Because when you're going through the divorce and that's again, it's and we know people are very conditioned and they allow this. And again, but that's why I say this is documented evidence. Well he's not going to she's not going to. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because the judge can't. All they can do is with what they have. Don't worry about it like you. And it really does. It's like they don't understand. Like, I don't know, it's it almost makes it like, objective. Put it out here. But I do have a question and I don't know who wants to answer it, because this is one thing that also I see now that we didn't have, you know, back is that not just the app, but phones, parents contact and children with lie about the phone and you get that and this is that well, this parent is berating this child over here on this phone. And that phone that's been a big thing that I've. Had that also my whole okay, I've had where I want parents like, well, I don't think they are old enough to have a phone. So I don't agree with them having a phone, but mom or dad lets them have a phone. Okay, so when they come to your house, if you don't agree with it, tell them not to bring the phone, right? If mom's okay with them having it, as long as there's parental supervision over it, you know those things, then that's mom's house when they come to your house, if you don't agree with it, then you and mom have to come to some type of agreement that I don't want it at my house, so it has to stay at yours. So I mean, that was pretty much, you know what I've had to share with like my parents who are one is in agreement was life, you know, but mostly I have mine are they don't really care about the phones, you know, as long as they can contact the children on the phone when they're with the other parent. So maybe. Okay. So maybe okay. So that is one thing. But the other side is like and I guess it happens a lot with my teenage clients. Is that there being there's horrible messages coming from the other side. Through the child's like. So if it's so say I'm the child and it's dad and dad is overbearing or whatever, you know, whatever. And I'm at mom's house, but dad is reaching out to me and telling me these like that. I've had to navigate that a little bit, too. I'm like, you know, how do I? Because again, they're the parent, you know, how do we do? I block. I set boundaries, I still set boundaries. I set up boundaries with the parent. They're part of the they're they're your clients to it. The parent is not involved in the therapy with let's say you have a teenager and let's say the teenager was 14, just for instance. And it's the dad and the dad is not involved in therapy. Then, you know, go ahead and say, put boundaries up with your dad. Let's talk about it. Let's have a conversation. What is a good or a respectful way to put a with dad and say, you know what, dad? You know, I know that you're texting me and you're angry with mom. I would have greatly appreciate it if you didn't put it, because it does damage me emotionally, you know? Makes me very sad. And it hurts me if he's a good parent, which he probably is, is just saying, oh, I'm sorry, I won't do that anymore. Hopefully that's the response, right? But if it's not the response, then it comes to a point. Dad, I've asked you time and time again to please respectfully not text me about mom about this. Am I talking about mom? So and and once again, see, this is how many dynamics we have. But you've got kids going back and forth, right? And of course we know. I mean, sometimes people are not at their best. It's the leave it at that. And I have a lot of kids that are terrified because they're constantly being berated, even when they're not there. And they don't say anything because they have to go back. They're constantly being berated by the parent. Whichever parent does, it's a parent, a parent. And even when they're say they're week on, week off, even when their week off, they're like, I this. Very still set boundaries. But then they have to go back. So that's what I'm saying. This is this is hard. Well, in my when I have issues like that, this is where if I, if the child is my is my client and I pull in a parent, I do I do these sessions and I and I ask the child, I make sure that you know, they're okay. He's not going to share other stuff. But this is what I think needs to be addressed, and I want you to do it in a safe place. So why don't we bring mom in or dad in or both, and so that we can address it? Because that usually helps if they're reasonable parents. Absolutely. You know, that usually does help them, you know, pause on that. And another thing too is that, when I've had done like reunification therapy and they're like younger children, of course, they don't have phones. The name is, I always tell them, get on a little tablet, get them a tablet where you can still message on the Wi-Fi. You can FaceTime your mom or dad when you're not with them. Like there's not a worry about them having a phone, like making like, calls. But you can restrict it. So then have a tablet. Hey, this is your tablet for when you call mom or dad, and it can go to both houses, right? Because no one's really paying for its own Wi-Fi. So here you go. Get on the tablet and agree to that. And that's usually a good medium that I found. It's like, okay, well mom, or even if a same thing of one, if a mom is okay with the phone, the dad doesn't like phone because he wants them to focus on school and stuff. Okay, then have the tablet be a home base of just calls and texts with mom. Yep. And I think it is. And I think with parents, even when we work with this, one of the things I think they get stuck on too, I go, your your kids are going to continue to grow. Things are always going to change. And even with, you know, and again, you know, I love asking the questions because we know what we do here, you know, and we're always like, no, you bring in the parents, you know, of course we do. And, you know, because I even tell the clients, I said, if nothing else, accountability is now held because if nothing else, that they know that I know, you know. And so that's a first step is bring the village in so, so. And set the expectations on the first session. And I do and I tell them if I have to, if I reach out to you then it's because something has been said. I need more clarification on it doesn't really involve the it involves the kid, but it's way above what he or she should be dealing with. Right? And and I always get agreements, you know, they're like, oh, no problem or okay, so if you set that expectation the first time, you won't really have that much of a problem throughout the set. And it's made me think about to like having understanding that you may have 2 or 3 kids, let's say, and they're all, let's say even they're all around the same age. Let's say you had like IRAs planned. You know your part two years. Don't expect to see one child's, let's say they're they're functioning fine. They're still excelling in school. They're communicating, have a good relationship with everybody. Don't expect that that other child will have the same response to the divorce and what's going on. I don't hold them both. Well, Johnny's fine. He's dealing with everything's fine. Like, why is it you know, Mary doing, you know, doing as well? Why is she, like, so angry with me? You know, you know, me and Johnny are perfectly fine. Why does Mary hate me and stuff like, like, don't don't look at it as, you know, those two don't. Yeah. Don't compare and think that both kids are going to respond and be healing the same way because maybe Johnny is, you know, just his mindset and his, his development is his different or his response, his emotional response is different. So just that's another thing I want to point out is I have to tell parents, it's like, okay, I get that one kid is very close to you, and then this your other daughter doesn't want anything to do with you. She's having her own experience and her own perspective of and that is her reality. So you need to respect that. And we have to go where she's at, not where your other child's at. Absolutely. And it's funny because the one that I'm working with has something she does. It's so beautiful. She says, you know, I know that there's always going to be some unbalance and emotional, you know, in transition, no matter good, bad or indifferent. And she says, I just, you know, made a point that the first day that we make that transition, it's kind of like no rules. She goes, if they want to be in the room, they're in the room. If they want to cuddle with me, they cuddle with me. They need help with homework. If they want to eat cereal for dinner because I just kind of have said I set the parameters, this is what we can do. And she was and I let them be. And I was like, thank you. I said, because again, so many times we know even as adults that we get it's they're again still trying to process their parents divorce because they weren't allowed. To see them. Right. And you have adults that I shared with some parents before I go, you know, I go because one thing I don't want you guys to do is play, you know, play this child against, you know, I said, because you know what? At the end of the day, when they grow up, they're going to sit on my couch and they're going to talk about you, about you. I go, and it ain't going to be pretty, because I think sometimes the parent tries to like, you know, you say, oh, well, he loves her more than me or whatever. And they try to, like, be the the friend of their child at that point. They try, you know, because I've had kids that come in and go, mom, my mom overshare, you know, so they like you said, they start talking about divorce. So they start talking about adult stuff and, you know, and the parent think that they're doing their child a service by, oh, we're going to get closer. I'm going to pull them closer to me. So they won't like that or they won't like mom. But no, they're going to talk about you two. Yeah. Well and that's a good point too, is, you know, if you could think of hand like so I know if, let's say a listener out there is thinking like they're in survival mode right now. Right? They're not in the healing journey. They're in survival at this point. Right. In the thick of it is if you can just think that in ten years, five years, what a difference you'll place, you'll be in, and this will all be a little drop of sand in your life. And just think of how old your child will be at that point, right? Depending on how old the children are when they are adults, they see and they will remember how you reacted and how you treated them and how you responded to the divorce. And they will remember how dad or mom did vice versa. So if you can remain as the even if you're the only one that is really focused on the kids, let's say you are like the better parent, you know, quote unquote, and your focus on the child and you're the one putting the child first and you're doing everything that you know. You are your child, when they are grown, will know, and they'll be able to see that. And the what relationship will you have with them at that time? You will have a great relationship because they're going to respect you as being that parent. That was like, you know what? My mom and dad went through it. But you know what? My mom, she had you know, she was strength. She showed maturity, sisters. She was consistent. She was focused on us, and she was always there for us versus let's say, dad, you know, unstable, different relationships, always mad at mom, always this. They're going to remember that one day they may be only five now and it may be coming in or out, or maybe they're only ten, however old they are, they're going to remember that feeling. So even though they don't remember the context of situations, they're gonna remember the feeling they had when they were with mom or dad. So try to keep that in mind. A lot of times, too. I say, you know, you got to stay out of that relationship. I said, that is between that child and that parent. I said, and that is a whole I mean, yes, you're there, you're open, you're authentic and, you know, and you just always stay. Of course, you know, he loves you and she loves you. And yes, that is terrible. But you know, you are loved. You are loved. You are loved. The capacity of love. Does it always feel like that? You know, and that's what I say. You always give. I mean, for your child, whether you feel it or not. Of course your father loves you. Of course your mother loves you. And you know, it's she's having a rough time right now and it hurts, but, you know, so it's like the more we can instill that confidence in them, you know, because I've seen a lot of times too, where, you know, I look at the kids and, you know, as these grown, I said, you are going to be the reason that your parents feel, you know, I said, because look at all this. But and I and this just really wise young people and they and I'm like, wow, where did y'all come from? I have some. Of them, you know, and they give their parents way more grace than I do. And I kind of go on them. They did what I'm like in my head going and they just go, you know what? But that's just who they are. And I go, wow, like, I mean, it's great. And you actually just remind me is I have, I have one, young person as well. And in, in their 20s and had that divorce and had one very toxic parent, I would say a toxic parent. I don't know him that well, but that description is like a toxic type of controlling parent. And he says all the time that, you know, there's there's no relationship between him and dad, but we're coming to terms of like, okay, are you going to accept that that's who your dad is now you're in their 20s, you get the choice. Now, you didn't have a choice when you were 12, but now that you're in your 20s, you do have a choice. So your relationship with dad is now your choice. That should feel empowered, you know, like and trying to set up boundaries with with them now. Because guess what? No one has control over you now. You are control over you. So that's another thing is like if you are in your 20s and I have a stigma and you know, there's another one there, great relationship with mom. And she still struggles with, you know, mom still pours out now that she's in her 20s. Oh, that's like her emotional support for the boundaries. And she's like, I love my mom. You know, we have I love that, you know, we have a great relationship. But sometimes I don't want to be her therapist. Like it's too much for me to see and hear what she's going through. And I'm like, well, then you got to tell her, because she clearly thinks that because you're older, that you can handle these emotional things, but you're just because you're 25, does that mean that you need to have, you know, your 50 year old mother telling you about her struggles every day? Because it does. It drains this person. So I said, now we're talking about the boundary. So even like I said, this carries with your kids as they're older. So, you know, parents out there and you keep in mind, yeah, you need to keep it in mind that it's going to affect them in one way or another. So divorce is not easy. And divorce can be the best thing for your children too. And I know that's, you know, a big controversial statement is, oh no, everyone needs to stay together for their kids sake. And, you know, people are entitled to their opinion. I don't believe in that because I think there's very much toxic households. And, you know, just because you're married and you sleep in separate rooms and you hate each other and stuff, that's not a healthy environment for your children. It's like, and people do and still happens every day. They're like, well, we don't believe in divorce. Okay. So you're living on different sides of the house and you basically don't speak to each other, and you sit down for dinner and you guys go to your separate ways. That is what that is what now you're instilling in your children of whatever you're. You know, it's okay to be miserable. Yeah. So as long as you're the guest and you have no authority over your life choices. And then I have to. And then I have to check the parents. If I have a parent like that, I'm like, so you're okay with this and you believe in that's totally respects you people's opinions that that's that's what they believe. But now if you're focused on your children, how would you feel if your child was in that type of marriage? What would you say to your own child, when I know you love your kid, I know your kid is a world. So if your kid is a world and you want the best for them, then why would you think that that's okay for you? If you don't want that for your own children? Because that's what they're growing up. They're grown up saying, yeah, this is marriage straight. They're either not going to want to get married. So you're right. I don't want a marriage like that. That is wrong. And they're going to start resenting some one parent or both. I mean. They're getting me one day. So like I don't want that. Yeah. That's crazy. Or they're going to get married and they're going to be miserable and then be like, well, this is my left. Well, and I'm so glad you said that because I mean, again, you know, good co-parenting. I mean, I've been divorced 20 years now, which is crazy, but that was even one thing with me, because I was a child of divorce, and it was very difficult. And I just knew that, you know, I never wanted my child to ever look at me and say, mom, why didn't you stand up for me? Why were you not strong enough to put me first? And I mean, because that was always my question with, you know what? My family and, and everybody, you know, and everything is what it is. And everything was different. Different times. And, you know, as you grow, you start to see people for who they are, you know? And that's why I say even sometimes when they go from parent to person, that's a hard transition to. But, you know, and I love that you said that because, you know, I have had people say, you know, oh, well, you know, are you married? Are you divorced? Are you this or he's out I go one it's not about me. I go into, you know, I'm here for you, I said, but I'm you know, all I can say is that, you know, we were better parents than we were partners. And I said, you know, I am. So that's the case with. Yeah, you know, the fact and we're very appreciative. And, you know, even when my ex, you know, said he goes, hey, you know, you raised I thank you, thank you. He goes because we have a great kid, you know, and a great young man. And he goes, you know. Yeah. So I mean and there is I mean there's a lot of that and that's all and it is what it is, you know. But again, it was like that's the thing we sometimes think we're do it. But are you this here's the thing. These are children looking at you going, hey mom, what do we do? Hey dad, what do we do. Oh, we're not doing anything. We're not we. Okay. Well nobody's happy. This is horrible. You know, like what am I. And then you start and then the kids of course they want to get out of there. They don't want to. And then. Yeah but you didn't do anything. And it's emotionally abusive. It really is. It's neglect and and it's sad. And like I said, and a lot of people don't know. And again, I could see it generationally. Their own emotions. They're in their own feelings and they're not focused on the children at the time. They're just going through it. And that's why I say like survival mode when you're in that survival mode, you know, that is the self reflection. I've been there too, you know, but I think I've shared on like one of the earlier podcast on, my mom had to tell me, nella, what are you doing? Like, you need to get your shit together. And I'm like, oh my God, you're right, you know? And sometimes you need people like that to tell you. So, but yeah, so pretty much overall, I think this is a really good topic. Definitely. And covered a lot. Yes, absolutely. So if you're out there and either you're going through a divorce, just remember that, you know, healing is a journey and is an emotional roller coaster. It's not going to be easy accepting the fact that it's not going to be easy. You're going to have good days if you have bad days and find a support system. If you don't have a support system, then go get an outside like a therapist, because then we can help you process all this stuff. Absolutely. And if you are going through divorce and you have children, focus on those children. And if you can't co-parent with your child right now, then do parallel parenting right now, get an app and, just do that for now. Maybe one day you can co-parent. That's the goal is co-parenting, but it's not reality in the beginning. It's just not. So I think if everyone stays focused on the end game and how happiness will come out of it, if you're focused on that and your own journey, your own responsibility, hold yourself accountable and that's all you are in control of. Absolutely. So yes. And Mike, very, very good, very good, very good. We'll say well. Yeah. So don't forget to like and subscribe. But yet is so. Strong. Yes. All right. See you next time. Bye bye.