HOW To Respond To Suicide Disclosures | Therapists Unhinged Ep. 20

How To Respond When Someone Discloses Suicidal Thoughts

In this deeply resonant episode of Therapists Unhinged, Tiffanie Trudeau, LMHC from Connected Thriving Counseling and Wellness joins the show during Suicide Prevention Month to discuss one of the most misunderstood and important topics in mental health. Tiffanie shares her expertise and lived experience around how to hold space when someone discloses suicidal thoughts. This is not about fixing or saving. It’s about listening with compassion, dropping the performance, and showing up in truth. Raw, wise, and totally unfiltered, this conversation is for anyone who wants to be a safe place for someone in pain.

KEY TAKEAWAYS
• Silence is not neutrality, it’s danger
• People disclosing suicidal thoughts do not expect you to fix it
• Listening and presence are more powerful than solutions
• Nonverbal empathy is a core part of holding space
• Not all signs of suicidality look like the checklist
• “I’m tired” or “I wish I could sleep forever” are often flags
• Asking directly about suicidal thoughts does not plant the idea
• Loved ones must resist the urge to personalize or panic
• Faith communities can sometimes shut down emotional honesty
• Safe spaces are built through consistent, authentic connection

BEST MOMENTS
00:00:03. “They’re not coming to you for a solution.”
00:00:58. “Silence is the real killer here and we need to talk about it.”
00:05:11. “I’m just so tired. I’m tired of doing this.”
00:09:31. “Thank you for trusting me with that part of your heart.”
00:14:47. “Secrets keep you sick. So we don’t keep anybody’s secrets.”
00:21:36. “Emotions are messengers. And even though they’re messy, they’re coming with a message.”
00:26:48. “Your siblings had a different experience in the same family.”
00:35:11. “They don’t feel like the world can withstand the messy wall behind the mask.”
00:40:05. “Silence increases the chances it will happen, not talking about it.”
00:50:14. “We don’t fear it so much that we push it away. We welcome it into the room.”

Transcript

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And somebody comes to you with that experience that they're sharing with you, that they're not coming to you for a solution. So I think that that tips people up, that if somebody does say that they're feeling suicidal or that they want to take their life or they don't want to be here anymore, that then the hearer is supposed to do something to change that with them, and that's not the case. If somebody comes to you with that very sensitive and personal struggle to hold space and to listen, to let them talk, to just give them the floor, to say what they need to say and that you be attentively present with them while they are sharing it. Try to like, demonstrate that empathy through your nonverbals you know, meaning, you know, kind of maybe a head tilt and like be very present with them as they're sharing so that they can keep sharing. Welcome, everybody. So we have a very special guest, Tiffany Trudel from connected, Thriving and Wellness. And we are so happy to have her here. So we brought her here. And it's a very special month. It is suicide prevention month. So we have to be realistic and thinking that, you know, silence is the real killer here and we need to talk about it. So that's why we think it's a very important topic. And Tiffany has a lot of experience with this as well. She's a well known counselor in Brevard County here. She works collaboratively with us. And other professionals in the community. And we all know that there is not enough great therapists and professionals out there. And Tiffany is definitely one of the best. She's a real dog. Real y'all. So we have to talk about this. So, Tiffany, what has been your thoughts like when this time of year comes around where we're talking about more about suicide prevention? What what posting remind. Thank you for having me, ladies, to be a part of this chat and to be a part of Jesse Guys's warm group and community. I still it just being here. So thank you so much for letting me kind of hop in as support will. And so yeah, it is suicide Prevention and awareness month in September and it is during a time when there's a lot more conversations that are intentionally being had around the topic of suicide. And that's important because it is an issue that a lot of people struggle with, and a lot more people struggle with it than like the average person may realize. And in this month, the focus is usually on what resources are available to people who are struggling, and then what are some signs to be looking for. If you might have concerns for someone who might be struggling, and that's really helpful. But I also think there's only like a sliver of like the conversation, because what happens when you identify someone or you see someone struggling like then what? Like what do you do if you're not a mental health professional or you're not clinically trained and you find out that it's a friend or it's a family member, it's a child, it's a neighbor, it's a coworker, what do you do then? And sometimes there's not a lot of conversation or resources that are getting into that part of it, as well as there can be confusion when somebody does make that decision for themselves and take their own life by suicide, but they didn't have the signs. They didn't follow this sort of prescriptive list that sometimes is given in good faith and with good intentions, but then they don't follow that sign. So. So then people are confused. And so in this month, I like being able to expand out of just like, here are the top ten signs that somebody might be suicidal. But how do you respond to people, even if they don't appear suicidal? So that is that keep saying to them that they know that you're a safe place for them to go to. That's really true. That that's one thing that kind of hits home. I know for me is I've heard, you know, of either friends of friends, you know, I have adult kids now, and they've had friends who have, died by suicide as well. And some of them just did not have any of the signs like, they're talking about, like, we, you know, they're confused because it was so sudden and and then they start to think back now like, well, wait a second. Did they actually have signs? And then, you know, that's a rabbit hole from there. What do you do in your practice when you see maybe some, you know, signs, red flags that there this is kind of starting to be a dangerous situation. And listen for what's being said behind the words that are in the room and in the space, because people who might be experiencing suicidality or having suicidal ideations may not come straight out and say, I am feeling suicidal. They might say other things that kind of pique my ears at when they're like, I'm just so tired. Like, I'm just so tired. I'm tired of doing this. I'm like, been wrong. Okay, say more like, say more about like, what did that mean? What does that feel like? You know, what would give you some rest of the rest? Because that could be a subtle way. But somebody was thinking about and wishing and hoping to go to sleep in that week. That or when somebody does say that, like, I wish I could just snap forever. And yeah, sometimes we all get really tired and we wish, like I could just sleep for a million years right now. But sharing sort of what's not being said behind what is being said and not being afraid as a clinician to ask that question, because there is still a little bit of this misconception that if you ask somebody if they are thinking about suicide or they're feeling suicidal, that that will plant a seed in their head that wasn't already there. And I think that that is a fallacy. So in my practice, when I hear some of these subtle statements or indicators not being afraid to say, yeah, so do you think about not being you or have you thought about, you know, ending your life or taking your life or feeling like life would be easier for everybody else if you weren't here in it and and not shying away from that, even though it's uncomfortable. Right. And sometimes people hear that and they're like, no, no, no. Like I just, I just need something to change. And then you're like, okay, right. But even saying that, I think creates a bridge so that if that person ever does get there, they might be like, oh, I think if I brought it to Tiffany, guess I'm a therapist so I can help the space, but that she can take it and she's not going to hear it and immediately say, Bong, we need to get her in the, you know, inpatient because you can have Doms and that doesn't mean you immediately have to get, you know, hospitalized. So that's the other part of it, like hearing what's not being said, but creating that environment that you have that comes up that people are safe and comfortable to come talk to me about because yes, I'm a therapist. So you think that the people who I work with already feel that, but that's not always the case when it comes to something as sensitive as suicidal. And that is so true because sometimes they look at us as, you know, the person who is the expert in those things. And, and sometimes it creates in their mind that, oh, Tiffany or my therapist will be mad or said at me if I, you know, post them or come in these feelings. So yeah, that's true. What do you say to if it's a loved one, like if you have a logo on em and you know, they are, showing signs or, you know, hopelessness or, do they even come to you and say some of the things that you just shared? What would you say to how do people who have loved ones that are in that position, what would you how would you go about them helping them to really knowing or understanding that if somebody comes to you with that experience that they're sharing with you, that they're not coming to you for a solution. So I think that that tips people up, that if somebody does say that they're feeling suicidal or that they want to take their life or they don't want to be here anymore, that then the hearer is supposed to do something to change that with them. And, and that's not the case if somebody comes to you with that very sensitive and personal struggle to hold space and to listen, to let them talk, to just give them the floor, to say what they need to say and that you be attentively present with them while they are sharing it, and that as much as you can. I'm kind of a phase talker. Can't yet. But try to like, fix your face like and not be like, oh, but be like all. Guilty of that. I'm like, actually try to like, demonstrate that empathy through your nonverbals, you know, mean in, you know, kind of maybe a head tilt and like be very present with them as they're sharing so that they can keep sharing. And then when there is a kind of organic pausing, whatever they said, being able to then express that gratitude, I'm like, thank you for sharing that with me. Thank you for trusting me with that part of your heart. And I, I can imagine that that takes a lot of courage from you to even just say that out loud. Like, that's like the blanket thing to say. And then you can move into asking more questions that are curiosity based, that are leaning in to know and understand and to empathize. Are there times when you feel more like that, or are there things that make that harder? Or when these thoughts come like what has helped you in the past, and have you dealt with this before and how did you take care of yourself in that? That again, the hearer is not here to solve, but just to hear and to hold space and to kind of give the here some coaching, I guess, some encouragement that it's not your responsibility to fix because it's not something that's going to be fixed by an outsider. It is a inside job. The person who is experiencing that. And yes, there's external support that they can get, but it is still an inside job. There's there's not a thing that a person outside is going to say that's going to immediately what that switch from on to offer, opt on wherever the switch is. So my advice and my encouragement would be to send home space, be compassionate, be present with the person, and don't feel compelled or obligated to fix it, or give them a solution, or even give them a superficial platitude of like, you got so much to be grateful for, or you have so much to live for, or you're so much. Yeah, but, you know, I think parents, I think that's something that parents will, you know, generally say to their child if they're experiencing any of, you know, suicidal thoughts or ideations or whatever they do. Well, we love you so much. You know, so it's good. To hear like the, like why you have everything right. And I know that that's a mistake. And of course, it's no malicious, you know, intent or anything like, of course, with their children. But I mean, that's one thing that I found too was, like, I don't get it. Why are they always in the impatient. Why do I always have why do they have to be back reacted? I give them everything. They have a car, they have this or you know, especially with teens, they just don't understand. So then they're like telling them that you have a great life. You're fine. We we're here for you. You know, there's people worse off than you. And then that's the big thing that I've noticed too, that parents don't understand. And again, I know that that they're doing the best that they can. But, like you said, sometimes that makes it work. Well, yeah. Because even right there, that's when you want to look at and say, but it's not about you. It's not about you. This is your child. And again, I go right into development. I'm like, yeah, because their frontal lobes in the toilet, because they're not operating with any type of logic and everything they're feeling is bigger and stronger, and they are terrified. And now you're they're people that are coming to, like you said, just don't make it about, you know, what I'm doing there is not about this is not a parenting thing. And I know we use that all the time, but you gotta sit with that, I mean, and just say, okay, what do we. Because here's the thing. So if somebody is talking about it, that is still good. That is still good. They're still trying to unburden it. They're talking about it. They want somebody to they don't know how you know. And so that's the thing. But I was going to go back with you on one thing that you said about, and I love that you said just being like a loved one or a friend or something, because, again, we're versed in this. We understand this. And you work on a new clinicians and stuff. And that's one of the things I tell them. I said, you know, you have to be okay asking that because it's not like you're going to cause it and you're not. And I think that's the thing so many people feel like, I can't say that because I don't want to take on that responsibility. I'm like, again, it's not about you, but people are scared. But my question is, is that kind of piggybacking off of what TJ's and what you answered young people. So like a lot of our teenagers, a lot of our, you know, I teach at the college, I got a lot of dual enrollment and so you have, let's say, a friend that comes to you and then you're you're being a good friend and you whatever. But then that friend keeps coming to you and now it's starting to affect you. So and and I've had that too. And I was like, whoa, wait a minute. This is bigger than you. Like this is not well, if I, if they don't come to me, I'm afraid now they're like vested with this person or they're attached now they're. So then you know, how do you navigate that part now it's now you that two people involved. And I really maladaptive type in perfectly is how we're going to make that perfect. And coaching the the friend who is now the holder. Because again it can go back to it's not your responsibility as the share to sob or find a solution for a person who is experiencing suicidality. And if they're coming to you and they've identified you as a safe person, maybe they will see you as a reliable resource and you can actually try to, encourage that person who's struggling to bring somebody else into the conversation and somebody else who might be able to also be a resource that can also help them so that you, as a hearer, don't feel like, again, it's all on you and you're the on the ride sharing the story. Or then it feels like a secret because you don't want the person, maybe not want everybody else to know because they don't want to get or Baker acted or whatever. And so the hear needs to know that secrets keep you sick so we don't keep anybody's secrets. So even if the person who is struggling is saying, like, don't tell anybody, being transparent and saying, like, I care about you enough, that this is not something that I think needs to stay just between us. And how can I'll be with you when you want to tell who's the next person that cannot be with you as like your, your wingman to, to get you to tell somebody. But we're not keeping this just in-house like between the two of us, because we need more. We need more. Suicidality is map this little teeny tiny thing, like we need a community to come and support a person who is experiencing that is not just said, well, no. And one thing. And so I'd be encouraging that young person to be honest, be present, but also get the support that they need because otherwise not they're going to start carrying that and they're going to feel responsible. And that can create an unhealthy dynamic of the measurement. And that gets us into like a whole nother situation. But absolutely. And locally in these here, some of the schools have like peer support that isn't necessarily specifically for suicidality, but for mental health challenges and mental health struggles that there is a group I know of, they call it a club, but it's called Sources of Strength, and it's at some of the bigger schools like the Sierra has. A source said that Sources of strength group, Edgewood, West Shore, like some of the and I cities that are all been but, some of the schools here in the community have a club, so to speak, within the school that is here supported. Where do you need to to get that support, like there are other students that can support you in addressing? Yeah, I think that we we probably need more of that even in other states and counties. And stuff too. One thing I thought about too, since we're talking a lot about teens in the young people, I don't know and correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been seeing patterns of, you know, those that have unfortunately taken their lives. I've had a couple of friends of friends, young kids that have and it has a lot to do with impulsiveness, too, because some of them, from what I, from what I hear, you know, from the families, is there wasn't a whole lot of red flags, right? They were kind of quiet, but they had impulsive personality traits. And let's say, hey, teens and young adults, they're already impulsive because again, their frontal lobe is not something makes them tick quite different literally. And yeah, they make some quick decisions and they don't think things rationally. Right. And that's just something that is for that age range. But I've noticed a lot of times it's impulsive. So they have one bad breakup, one huge failure in school or one thing, and then they have, you know, die by suicide. And so it makes me wonder, like, how can we help those parents of these kids who are thriving? They weren't doing well. They just happened to have one bad breakup. And and that that was their one time they never showed any other signs. How can we even educate parents about their children that are already showing, like the impulsive nature? Right. Because I have a son like that. My son who is 20, he is an impulsive kid. He always was more than my daughter. So I see those things with him. So I'm always like, anytime he's going to relationship issues or he failed a test or something, I'm always checking in on him more because in my head, more sober in the field, were more a little bit neurotic when it comes to that. But like checking in, you know, because I know that I want him to make a stupid decision, you know, or a decision you can't take back. So, I was going to say if you want. I touch on that a lot. And what I'm finding is that, again, because I do so much education in the psychology field, is that it's the lack of connection. And so that's what's happening is that, again, like your kids and again, you know, your children, aren't you. But they're foundationally connected. So they know that they are loved and they understand love. And they know that even a mom and dad or tough or a girlfriend or they have a foundational value within themselves, like you said, is a very internal thing. And what we're seeing is that because, again, our, younger generation, because everything is so third person, they don't even understand connection. And so there is so much of an if then thinking like, if this, then I'll be happy if this then or if this happens then, and if it doesn't happen, I'm not and I can't be because again, they don't have any like of the gray and the middle and they're, they're, it's, it's so black and white to them that it's like they literally don't even have the capacity to ever see that struggle is part of like but how do you make that connection? You know, communicate, connect. But go back to the family foundation of again, it's not about you giving them a car and everything else. They are not, for whatever reason, feeling connected to mom and dad. They're safe place or their brother, their sister or whatever. And that's why I'm saying even people that talk about it is still they still have this like I do have value. I do have worth. I'm going to entrust somebody else. And that's what I'm saying. So it's to me, it would be. And we talked about in relationships a lot of times if they're going and seeking and I'll share I that's such an yesterday with someone I work with a young man and little I had to ask the question and I've been working with them for a while and I heard I'm done. And I sat there for my next logical, okay, I gotta handle this, even though I know him, even though but I mean, I had seen some things and you know, and I did say, okay, what does that mean? And then I did it. I said, so, you know, do you want to hurt yourself? And then he kind of looked me like, no, okay. But hey, I mean, listen, I'm going to go there, you know, because again, he matters to me. I heard him and but I think that still I knew we have that connection and even sometimes. But I know that he struggles with that just in a personality type thing or lot. You see the little introverts and especially with our gentlemen, our guys, they don't know how to talk. Nobody. And so I think that may be, you know, and then of course, with the impulsivity that's that, you know, nothing's going to happen. And then, you know, you're jumping off a cliff before you even realize that you jumped. And so in addition to like that foundation that you're talking about, of of connectedness and that belief of love ability, I think is also creating emotional intelligence, even in the impulsivity piece. Just developmentally appropriate responses. Right. The the things that you can do when a young person is disappointed because they got a poor score, on an exam, being there to give them some perspective to validate their disappointment in themselves, also to help them to seeing that they're able to get through it like this is hard and and you can I believe in like I believe I'm here with you in this. And this is a hard lesson to learn. And as you kind of feel, these feelings will come back and we'll figure out what we need to do next time, whether it's we need to get a tutor or you do some studying or whatever, specifically around the example of an exam, but it's building in some of that emotional resilience and other like low stakes situations, like whether it's an exam or is I didn't get enough playing time on my sporting team. That's where, I got into a spat with my friend or even you got into an issue with your parent, building that in kind of helping them see the GRE, helping them to see their ability to, like, navigate the emotional waves that are going to come help them to see that that is normal and natural, to have emotions and that you're not supposed to just be like, happy and good and surprised and excited, like all the time that sometimes you do feel sad or you do feel down or you do get a little nervous. We do to a little embarrassed, this a little annoyed, and all of that is okay. You know, emotions are messengers. And so even though they're messy, they're coming with a message. So let's weather the mess to get the message. And then we can like, move forward. But it's building in that emotional resilience so that when they have a real hard thing, they already have some tools that they can kind of set off from or some experience of like, oh, I had done hard things and I've been able to survive it. I've been able to come out on the other side of whatever the hard thing was, even if it wasn't this hard thing I've done, partner, I. Love that, I love, I like pretty much normalize you feeling that down normalize. Another thing too, is normalizing as professionals, even not just therapists, but like doctors, because I notice that there are people that are quick to say, oh, they said that, you know, I don't want to be here anymore. Okay. Immediate. You know, Baker, immediate. You need to go to the hospital. Or parents say they get paranoid. They'll call the cops right away because they're, you know, the children are acting out and said something like that. And I encourage people to say, like, normalize. Hey, we're all we've all been there. Even therapists, you know, we're not immune to feeling like we don't want to live here anymore. Sometimes, sometimes that that will come during deep, you know, dark moments in our lives because that is unfortunately a part of life. And you also said something that I'm going to use in the future. You said emotions come as messengers. I love that because it's true. They're messy. They have a message I like. I love that, I love it like you're you're saying that because it's true. All of our emotions are valid and they're coming. So figure out what that message is at that time. So I think that maybe that can be used even for parents out there listening is, you know, if you're seeing your child starting to show different personality types, or maybe suddenly they're showing impulsivity and they're, you know, partying a lot more than normal and, or, you know, or something. That's just a little bit of it's checking in with them. And I've always said that a lot of them in this podcast is I got to check in with your kids, even if they appear on the outside. Okay. Oh, you got to check in with them and ask, you know, have those sit down. And I know we're busy. I know parents are just so overwhelmed right now. And I know that's a big part of it, too. And but, checking in with all those emotions because they are messengers. Yes. And and equipping the parents as well with their own resilience tools, but some self-compassion and to be able to kind of distance themselves a little bit because when a child or a teen comes to the parent and says, I'm having these thoughts or I'm feeling this way, and the parent responds like, what do you have to be suicidal? What do you have to be depressed about? Like, do you have everything? And when parents do that, that tells me, or that at least cues me in of like, oh, that parent is personalizing what they are, personalizing their child struggle as a personal parental failure of like, I didn't prepare you a mess like I did something wrong. I didn't give you enough or like this is my thoughts. And when we feel like something is our fault, naturally we're going to feel some sort of shame. And one of the ways that we sort of regulate shame is by getting defensive. Like we're going to like, go out and try to, like, release the shame out of our body by being defensive, by deflecting, by, like giving it to someone else. And so when our kid comes and says, I'm depressed and I'm feeling suicidal in the parents, like, why do you have to be depressed about, do you know what kind of like I learned as a kid? I didn't have had these these thing. I'm okay now. Let's take a beat. Last up is projected out and I need a pause. Catch my own breath, regulate my own nervous system so that I can actually be a self a safe, regulating space for my child right now. Because you're coming to me with something that's very serious and very heavy and probably certain, very scary. And so, like you said, this is not about me. And that's okay. Like, this doesn't have to be about me. And even though I have a lot of feelings about that, I need to like in the moment statement, these are my feelings I need to like put them in a small container. I'll be back for you and I and then and then be there for their. Absolutely. And then come back to their feelings like that. The parents also have a place to go to unpack and process and release their stuff too, because parents are sometimes first and they have feelings too, especially when it so our content concerns are tiny humans. So for parents, when they respond that way, to me that is shame. That is coming from a personalization of their child struggling when it's not adopted. And I think that's even harder in family systems where there is emotional empowerment or there hasn't been space given for healthy differentiation in the family unit. So then the parent will take it on is theirs, because they don't even like see their child as a separate being. Right? I see that among siblings, like siblings in a family where it's like, well, your sister, she made it through school. She wasn't depressed. She got through it. And the different. And I and a lot of things that parents need to understand too, is that two siblings, three siblings, five siblings, whoever it is in that house, they all have a have had a different experience in that family. Absolutely. Whether it be their, you know, what number they are in the in the up children of their second shoulder and fifth child, five fifth child or whatever the number there as well. And then where their parents were, if you if you gave birth to one child in your sibling and then you as parents were in your 20s and then your next one's that you're in your 30s, you parent different automatically because we we change and evolve. So a lot of parents don't think about that will like again your sister's fine, your sister's been fine. And you guys are only two years apart. You both went to the same schools, you know, were you still have your parents. What's the problem? People don't think about that. Their experience. Same you as parents. Even different. Absolutely, absolutely. Because I know even in my own home, you know, between my three children, I have two millennials. And then whatever comes after that one, I have two generations. So what is it like Gen Z? Right. Because my sons are Gen Z and it's different. Like I had to parent him different. You know, he's 19, my oldest is 32. So it's different. I know y'all heard what I had to say I have you could blooper that out. Sorry. No no no no no no. Put my hand girl. Put that in I'm season. I'm a seasoned therapist. The 35. Oh I stop the show is oh go go on. This whole lady wants chicken wing. So that's how badly I came to my. Yes. Yeah. I'm bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But but I mean that was hard though, because he had more emotions than they did, you know, because when we were raising them I'm the parent that say, oh, get over it, you'll be fine and get over it. And they got over it. They did what? Well, you were right. They surprised it. They put that in for the moment. They got over it. Right. They suppressed it. They did. Because at their ages, I mean, my my middle one, she does struggle with anxiety more. But and then I have my son here and it's like, okay, we're sitting down, I'm doing okay. I'm like, okay, tell me what's going on. So it's different. But you know, that's what I want to say. It is different. And that forces us as parents to learn and evolve, because always I know my mom wasn't asking me how I felt because she was never in my mind telling me, what am I like, are you bleeding? Then you're okay, I got it. Yes. Even though, like, you know, I've been to, I don't know, till the early 2000, but when I was in the 80, there were no emotion, right. They didn't. We had not discovered those yet. Right. Broken bones are bleeding. If you ain't got one of those, go say that. My mom said go drink some water. Go on, go on, go read some water, honey. Go lay down. Go like that was your fix for everything. And if they did a big toe on that, then I don't get it. I don't know how you did it work like that, right? But that's why we are so resilient. It is only one thing. Two, that I actually said to a doctor, locally here the other day, and he's a psychologist, very well known. He's awesome. He says that sometimes what you do is like, we go through this healing process as adults, like let's say it's like, you know, all a little bit older. I'm the youngest. Or is Tiffany the youngest? I don't know. I'm 84, baby. And nobody wants this. You're not that much older or something. I want to just tell me what she said. I just don't get all reviews. So one thing he said was that throughout our adulthood, sometimes we we feel healed. We're we're growing. We're doing great things in life. We're raising children's and families and kind of like what you said, you put it away or compartmentalize things, but then something will trigger an emotion from your childhood and it's like, wait a second, I'm good. I had a I moved on from that. Why is it coming out now? Well, the memories not gone. The feeling is not gone. It's somewhere else and it lay dormant and then it can come back out. So being self-aware of that too, even as all of us, we've all grown up in different types of households. Right. So thinking about that with even kids now, like, okay, your your child grew up, and let's say an intact family, then all of a sudden they're in a divorce situation. Their their parents are divorcing in their teens. And they appear to be okay. Right. And you're looking at the chart. Okay? The child's moving. All the child's in college now. The child's good. So maybe that child compartmentalize those feelings of that. They don't have that family unit anymore, or they know that there's stress going on back at home. All they're often college. And all of a sudden something triggers that, like, let's say a breakup or something. And then they like I said, sometimes these decisions are made and you can't take them back. And I seen that happen as well. So being aware and checking in with your kids, even as they're adults, technically, maybe away in college and stuff and they're like getting straight A's and they call you to tell you how they're doing. Great. But that's not always the case because those feelings come out and they will get triggered. And when people. Act, the pair that's going to come out or they don't feel like they have a safe space for them to come out that keeps them in, like even even more tightly. But that also means like, you know, something is you holding a really tight and then something bumps, hits and it's like all over the place and then it feels, too messy to grab, like, you don't know what to do with it. And and that can be scary when you're on the outside of it. But imagine what it feels like when when you're inside of it, when it's you and you're just, like, holding on. I think we also live in a society where the message sometimes still is like, doc, like, look, okay, and don't let you're not okay. Make other people not be feeling okay. Like there's still a bit of this message that everybody is entitled to comfort. And so you're addicted to your. Yeah, that all of your mess can't make me uncomfortable. Right. And then because that is a message that kind of flows around in our in our society, we start to wear masks. We start to perform in the personality that the world wants us to have before in. And at some point that mask can get really, really badly. And that's where, you know, we started in talking about that, there are these signs that indicate that somebody might be having some some suicidality or they might be coming close to that line. But then when you have those people that they aren't signs, those are people who are probably wearing a mask because they don't feel like the world around them, their support system, their family, their friends, their community can withstand the messy wall that's behind the mask. And that's, I think, where you get the, that was that like Robin Williams who was like, famous actor, so funny comedian. And it was like shocking when when he ended his life or there was this switch social that's Twitch. I was trying to because also Twitch was always dancing. He was like a social media influencer. He was on The Ellen Show, you know, a family young man. And that happened, and that actually touched me personally this year in that I was off, out of town and got a call from my husband that a good friend of mine had died by suicide. And I was like, shocked. Not because, like, intellectually, clinically, I don't think that that's something a person could do, but in that moment, not that I think about all of my circle, like commit suicide, like it's not on. Right. But she was not even been on the side of the galaxy of who could do this. And I was devastated. I was devastated to hear this. And this was a woman who was like the brightest light, like, walked in the room. Everyone felt like her best friend, but in like a genuine way, not like she just openly, but to take like it felt like so genuine. You felt so seen and so known by her that when I heard this, not only was I devastated, but I was like, she was hurting. Like she was hurting so much to make this decision. And I went in my mind of like, how did I tell her? How was I not there for her? How did I not create a safe enough space for her to come to me with her struggles? And I had to, like, work through that and give myself space to validate that and feel that, and then kind of comes to me that. But it was a reminder that it doesn't always look a certain way. And this particular friend was very involved in the faith community. And so I believe that there was so much hush hush around it. There was so much, spiritual bypassing that existed in the faith community that she was in that she probably didn't feel like she could really come out with that and not be Jesus, or that she wasn't going to get, like, religious platitudes or like, you know, cash or anxieties on the Lord. And, you know, this world is temporary. You're not meant for this. Like your riches are in heaven. And when you're suffering, you're more like Christ. Whatever the platitudes are that might have sat on the surface but gave her the message of like, your real heaviness is not safe here, because if you are struggling, then it is a lack of faith. It is because of some sin in your life. And that I worry so. And obviously she's not here to to tell me, what was going on with her. But I've had a lot of time to sit with, until my dealing, but also say, okay, what how do we learn from this? How do we how do we not let somebody else be struggling alone with this in our circles, whether it's the faith community or it's just like your regular circle? And, you know, first of all, my condolences to you. Let me help your friend. You know, you hit a very, very important point when you talked about faith, about the faith community. And, you know, of course, there's different kinds of faiths nowadays. But, a lot of times people do suffer from silence because they feel that if they come forward with it or if they share it with someone, that that is a, you know, lack in their faith when that's not true. And I've done like many different conferences where I've been to especially black churches and have had to shine light on it because, you know, again, that's the first thing, is your child, if it's a parent, your child is struggling as far as saying, you say, I'll take it to the Lord in prayer. And that's all great, I agree, but what do you do after that when after you've taken it to the Lord in prayer? How does that manifest in a natural setting, right? Because your child or that person still needs help. And so I think there's a big stigma around the black community when it comes to suicide. And you had mentioned earlier, that, you know, sometimes people are saying that if you talk about it, it's going to happen. And I've always shared, no, if you stay silent, silent, there's a, there's, there's a strong, you know, possibility that will because your child is suffering in silence, you know, and you can say, oh, go get the Bible, go pray. But that child needs connection and that child needs to know, like you say it, that safe space has already been prepared and that yeah, we can pray together, but we also need to do other things that, you know, come alongside that. So. So how would you speak to someone, who, if you did have a client, that is struggling, you know, with life, and they're, they're having a struggle with it as well as with their faith and what they believe in. You know, how other people were, perceive them if they did come out of that measure. You know, this is so layered. I like to talk a lot about how we can hold two truths, something like that. Dialectical. Yeah. And be true to. Yes, you, you can have a tremendous amount of say and be something like one does not cancel out the other. And that's how I think we kind of deal with that impulsivity or that black and white thinking is it's not either or is. And I'm a person of faith and I am struggling and and I think that that helps people to like, oh, I don't have to choose. I don't have to like, let go of this thing that is still a resource because your faith, you know, that person's faith may still be a protective factor. You know, we know when we are doing suicide assessments or safety assessments, we identify protective factors and one is having internalized beliefs about suicidality or suicide, which is like religious often and or like perceived connectedness and things like that. So religious connections and affiliations can be a protective factor. But for me, because in my practice, I also work with people who are in various stages of deconstructing their faith, or may are recovering from religious trauma or church hurt. That I'm aware that while religious beliefs and affiliation can absolutely be a resource, they can also be a limiting factor. I'm very demonizing. And so I think of this kind of, you know, yes, that's that's then a lot. Right. And very and very externalize like intelligence. If you're not then you are not. Yes. Right. And the idea of you were talking about having that inner connectedness, that belief that you are worthy and lovable or and how important that is to give, like a foundation or some individuals who have a religious affiliation, especially if it is a higher control religious affiliation, they may be getting a message that like, you are a wretched sinner and you are dirty and you will never be clean and you can never earn anything good. You're only good because of Jesus or because of the grace of God. And again, on one hand, that is it. It reinforces the need for a Savior, right? But on the other side, like a sticky dark part is, then people think that they are inherently worthless, that they are in. Apparently unlovable, that they are inherently bad, a dirty and despicable and sinful, and that and a slippery slope into like this world would be better without me. Yeah, and it may. And it gives them lack of control because it's like it's not in my. Control, right? I'm giving it all to God. So that means I'm in no longer control. So if something happens, then that's just what happens. It's not in my control. This was one. And I think like I said, like that, that is a very slippery slope. And I love that you said the two truths because we can use that in so many things, like if you're to trust, yes, you can be, of faith and be feeling have those dark thoughts right, and be, you know, sinning. We can be therapists and also have our dark moments and, and be, you know, not not making a good decision sometimes. Right. Like we're human first. So like this can you can be a very good parent, but also you could be struggling and need help too. Like there's there's not one or the other. And I think like you said, that helps with that black and white thinking is that you don't need to give up one or you won't be a good parent if you do this or so. There's so many things that you can do with those two terms. I have this t shirt and I would wear it when I do, like when I go to the Faith-Based meetings that it says you can have Jesus and a therapist to, you know, and it really does, doctor people, they're like, because you can have, you know, a t shirt that says, it says therapy plus prayer equals healing medicine. And it's like, you know, got a little plus sign, a little line under it, and I'll wear that as well. Like if I'm speaking at a religious, you know, organization or group, as a reminder that it doesn't have to be either or. Because if, if your belief system is that God made everything and that he endowed people with certain spiritual gifts, then your God is you. Believe in doubt, a therapist. But there's and they can help you. So guess what? Don't knock out the blessing. Go see that therapist. I see it a million times. I say the same thing absolutely. You know, we believe that, right? Bob sent us to do this, right? So let us let us help you write me that. I actually say that I go, this is my destiny calling. And I know this, you know, and especially and you know it when you just when you didn't just choose it for yourself, like, you know, you were called into it is not it wasn't just a choosing, you know what I mean? And I share that because I do see, clients who are, you know, Christian faith based or, and I let them know the same thing. If you're struggling, that is not a sign that your your faith is weak. You're actually strong enough, you know, to say that you're struggling because you need that help. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I love it. Well. And are you going to make that mistake as tested. And a triad. I mean it's not just something and it's yours and it has to be work because I think keeping up the endurance, the resilience and you know the lessons are learned and you know, struggle is part of the thing and experience. I mean, we fast and struggle because that is how we get on. And so you don't get stronger on a set of weights, execute room all day. And if you look at I wish. It was that easy, I. Do my thing. Are you sure? And when you pick them up, you use them long enough, you're going to build some pain. Yeah, I and that's true. So we're talking about comfort and that's the thing. There's only growth through discomfort. But you have to also recognize and understand your capacity and capability at that time. And what you can handle. Give yourself grace. Be kind to yourself when you're learning. And even with that, I'm using all the time, all the time. Self-acceptance. You got to accept it. Are you? Can I advocate? Because if you don't accept it and you hide it, you keep running from it is going, keep chasing you. And a trigger is something that is just okay, you're not here. It's a reminder of a Ross. It doesn't mean you have to go. You can just go. You know what? I'm not ready for that. But if you do not give yourself grace to even say, I'm just not going there right now, like I know right now that's going to be a lot. And that's what I'm saying. When all this stuff and people have this idea and this expectation of what they think and what they and this and that and and I do that a lot with, with my, you know, I said, isn't it funny? I said, every time we go here, you go there and we go. I said, where are you going? Where are you going? What's it right here? I said, I'm not here. Oh well, they who's angry and they just look at me and I give em what's going on. Where are you going? Because a lot of times they don't know, but that is their default, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. I'm like, oh no no no no no no. You don't even know. I go, well then what are you and our guy Jeremy I still loved he said that if we are what we do, who are we when we're not? And I think about that all the time because I am a human. Do what I love to do. And I'm like, But I'm not just what I do, you know I love. That and I love. That, you know. So to wrap up this episode that could just go on and on. I love my, my suggestion I guess would be to anyone listening is reach out to people like have a connection, be someone's connected source that they feel that they can be safe. And I don't care who this could be a friend. It could be a a family member that, you know, maybe very quiet or reserved, you know, reach out and check on your friends, even if you, you know, think that they they're probably fine or they live this great life because we all know it doesn't matter how much money you have, how many, how much family you have, things happen and you all struggle at some point. So check in, be someone's safe place. Tiffany one, first of all, thank you for joining us. You're a wealth of information. I'm going to be using some of the things that you said because I love it. Thank you for all the work that you do here. If there's one advice that you would say to listeners out there when it comes to this topic, what would you put, you have to say. Without this being like a therapist doorknob thing, you know, when they, like, hit the door and they say like, drop this bomb. And you're like, why the minute, doorknob revelation, the doorknob wrote that revelation at the end is that recognizing that for some people, suicidality is also a reasons right? Like, it also feels like something that they can hold on as as an option, as a, as a pathway, even if they don't take it. And that get comfortable with that uncomfortableness of like, you may not ever release them or release them from that. Like the part of them like from an internal family systems kind of viewpoint, that there may be a part of them that has evolved or developed to protect them in some way. And they that's that suicidal part. That's that probably that firefighter that the goal is not to banish that part. But how can we give that part a different role, a different job, but to bring it back into the system and so that even we're dealing with suicide, which is very scary. It's like the scariest thing that you can deal with as it relates to mental health. It is the scariest thing that we don't fear it in such a way that we push it away, that we welcome it, and not like we want you to be suicidal, but like we we understand that it's in the room. We cannot pretend like it's not in the room. Once we know it's in the room, how do we be aware of it? With compassion and with curiosity, and not let fear drive us from it and force it to go into silence? Thank you so much, Tiffany and stuff. Definitely so. And thank you all for listening. And, I hope everyone enjoyed it. There you. Go.