Can Women Really Have It All With Nicole Capper

What does it really take to be a woman balancing motherhood, ambition, and identity?

In this powerful conversation, Nicole Capper opens up about the realities behind the scenes, the pressure to hold everything together, the guilt that comes with it, and the strength it takes to keep showing up.

This episode goes beyond the surface. It’s raw, honest, and unfiltered.

We talk about:
• The truth about “having it all”
• Losing and rediscovering your identity
• The emotional weight mothers carry
• Strength, resilience, and what power really means

If you’ve ever questioned how to juggle it all without losing yourself… this one is for you.

Subscribe for more real conversations.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We're still number one within Jurge Podcast. And today we're celebrating woman. Woman's strength. And we don't really talk about what it takes for woman's strength. And we have Nicole Kappa. How are you?

SPEAKER_03 0:15

Yeah, I'm good, John.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Good. Nicole has got two kids, and I wanted to do a thing on woman's strength and motherhood. And I started searching Instagram and I found you. So I'm very excited to have you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Before motherhood, who were you?

SPEAKER_03 0:33

Wow. I mean, that's like the crux of the whole conversation there. I was a shell of a human being. I was shy, apathetic, lazy, hiding. Um, I really didn't take any risks or chances. And I hid behind what I imagined the life that I would create for them would be. I hid behind their dreams. And in the process of the early years of motherhood with my kids, and especially with what happened and the challenges they faced, it it unearthed in me a little bit of self-discovery, which I'm so grateful for. You wouldn't recognize me 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

So she doesn't exist anymore.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

She doesn't. She died.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Was motherhood something you've always wanted?

SPEAKER_03 1:17

Yes. Yeah. And I always say if if you want to have kids, uh first ask yourself, would you still want to have kids if you would want to have sick kids or struggling kids? If the answer is still yes, then have kids. And I did. I've always wanted to be a mom. It's been part of my DNA since I was little.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Give us a little bit about your history. So listeners who don't know you, and I'm sure they all do, but just in case there's one or two, your past.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Dark check your past.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

How dark do you want to go? No, um, it's been a really cool journey. I uh I guess I'll give you the story from a motherhood lens because uh that really is what's shaped me and my journey is I had a son, like I said, I uh he's 14 now. Yeah, us millennials are getting old. Um he was what I hid behind. And you have a, I don't know, my first kid it was like a delight. He enjoyed every little moment and everything was about them. And it was took my daughter coming along and um falling sick, falling ill at three weeks old. Uh never forget rushing her to the hospital at um three weeks old in the back of my car, one hand on the steering wheel, one hand in the back on her head just to make sure she was still breathing. Because she literally stopped breathing in my lounge. I was home alone three weeks post-Caesar, rushing in, literally throwing my baby into the pediatrician's arms, and spent the next six weeks with her in ICU to discover that they had cystic fibrosis. And in that moment, I'll never forget this crushing weight on me of okay, well, you're not just a new mom. Now you also need to be her doctor, physiotherapist, psychologist, nutritionist. There's so many new roles I need to fill. And that overwhelming moment, I think it just broke me. Like I actually think I I broke in that moment into, I can't be that. All I really can be is an example to my kids. And I looked internally in that moment, like I had an out-of-body experience, and I said, Am I somebody they could look at and say, Well, you're fighting, I could fight too? No, I wasn't. Not at all. I couldn't say yes to that. I had no personal dreams of my own. I was doing a job, I was working as a pharmacist in a warehouse, and I hated it. I really did. And I was shy, I wouldn't speak in front of anybody. And I thought, okay, cool. This is the journey. What could I do that is so terrifying that gets me out of my comfort zone? And like, there's a world of opportunity here. Okay. Blank state. Let me ask you, what would you choose?

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Right now. Probably go run in the desert.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Something cool, like something totally adventurous and wild. Anyway, because I was, I suppose, where I was, and maybe not taking anything away from the journey. I don't want to mock it in any way because it was a fundamental part of my growth and change. Was I was scrolling through social media, like in ICU with this kid covered in tubes, and I saw one of somebody I knew, an acquaintance, doing Mrs. South Africa. And I went cold. I thought that has got to be the most terrifying thing I could ever imagine. Like, could you imagine having to go and like find sponsorships and uh get all dressed up and stand on stage and talk in a boardroom full of judges? That's there's no waste. And then in the moments, I was almost held account accountable to myself to say, cool, let's do this. Let's do this crazy adventure of Mrs. South Africa. And that was the first step. And I'm very grateful I took it. I learned a lot of business skills, uh, personal skills, communication skills in the process. But it also showed me who I don't want to be. And I'll never forget being crowned, standing there on stage, feeling, okay, well, is this the example that I want to be? A beauty queen. Like essentially, there's a lot more than that. That's what it is. But it is that what an answer was no. And so then I went to the other end of the spectrum and started going on mountain climbs and almost dying on a few mountaintops. That was great.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

I saw you into Everest Base Camp. I'm so jealous.

SPEAKER_03 5:19

Amazing. Um, survivor, all the rest, they came from that. And I learned to fall in love with hard things. And now, maybe to my detriment, I really indulge in very difficult things.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Do you think women lose themselves in motherhood or involve?

unknown 5:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Uh, for so many reasons. Hey, um I actually read a quote recently that said, Your greatest precursor for success as an adult is the partner that you choose.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

I agree with that.

SPEAKER_03 5:54

And so many women don't make that decision consciously because we fall in love. And you should actually be a lot more deliberate about putting yourself with somebody who's going to support you for the next rest of your life if that's what your goal is in a partnership. Maybe it's not, but does that person have your goals, interests, and success at heart? Because they're going to be your cheerleader in your success. And a lot of women are not just falling into the trap because that's what sucks society expects of them or that's what they expect of themselves, that self-projected idea of motherhood, but they also fall into the trap of what they think their spouse expects them to be in that role. And they're often lost in that role.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Yeah, that's true. Especially as a mama as well. Yeah. Because I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

I mean, I posted something recently on my Instagram where I said, uh, I posted a video of my daughter who said, Oh, hi mommy, when are you coming home? Hope you're okay, at four years old, like this little curly haired wonder delight. Like, where's my mother? And at that stage, I was on Survivor on a beach, on the exact opposite side of the world in Samoa, with zero cell phone signal for 48 days. They did not hear from me. And the amount of criticism I faced for that as a mother. Whereas a dad never gets asked that question. Never.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

And the kids are fine, they're with their dad. Who you trust them with, who you married, or whatever it is. You know what I mean? Like.

SPEAKER_03 7:30

Well, this is the thing is a woman will never leave their kids without a plan. It was a plan. Well, over and above that.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

I mean, there's a capable dad looking after them. Like.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

In my case, maybe at the time, not so much. I think it was a more complicated scenario, and one that a lot of women face is single parenting. And it changes the ante. It ups it because now the pressure is so much more intense to put them first. Whereas in single parenting, putting yourself first is a better example to them and will set them up better for success than thinking that they have you as their always fallback. And the video that I talk about in reference in its purpose was to show a video now of my kids. And I'm I revel in it now. And yes, the proof is still in the pudding in another 10 years' time. We'll check in and see if we were right. I mean, maybe we're still wrong about all of this. We're all just figuring it out. I remind my kids often, this is the first time I've parented. Guys, I am still figuring this out. But the moral of the story is they're great. And because of it, not despite it.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

I'd love to ask your daughter if she's or your son even. This is my moment showing the survivor pictures. Like that must be amazing as a kid.

SPEAKER_03 8:46

Yeah, so cool. They're so proud. And they're not just proud of me. This is the kicker, they're proud of themselves because they looked after themselves. They were like supporting me. They feel responsible. I promise you, I have I haven't washed a dish in years.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

My son's 14, my daughter's 10. They have chores and they come teach my kids something, please.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Reese Lagan, Kyron, listen. Have you ever felt torn between being a good mother and being yourself?

unknown 9:17

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

Um less and less. Uh if you had asked me that question five years ago, the answer would have been every single day. But I wish uh someone had taught me sooner to be more honest with my kids. To be less precious with things with my kids. They want vulnerable, they want real. And as long as it's within an a context of is this a subject that they can emotionally handle at their level of maturity? How can we package it in a level of maturity that they'll understand? They feel responsible, they feel valued when you trust them with information. I chat to my kids about everything. I asked them for life advice. What would you do in this situation? Because I mean, we know what we were raised like, and when I say we, I know I'm generalizing because they they were not all like this, but it was a generation of fake it till you make it parenting, and they had it all figured out, and you just assumed that everything was good, and then 10 years later you find it was all falling apart behind the scenes, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yeah. I'd fresh on two episodes ago, and he said the same thing. It's like uh exactly what you just said now, in different words, but same context, and he said the same thing. Identity, do you think it became stronger after having children?

SPEAKER_03 10:49

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

And were there parts that maybe faded?

SPEAKER_03 10:53

Yeah, well, you first lose your identity, and that's the part that rebuilds it. I'll never forget somebody actually at the time, quite pivotal in my life, said to me, When I got divorced, my start of marriage, we'll talk about that later. I can joke about it now, it's been a while.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Um, we could joke about marriages, don't worry. That's a podcast on its own.

SPEAKER_03 11:15

Um when you are um in that moment of failure, perceived failure, in front of your friends, your family, and your community and going through divorce, someone said to me, Don't let this moment define you. And that was the worst advice I ever got. Because I hope those moments do define you. I hope that they shake you and change you and break you in ways that you cannot imagine because they are gifts. Because those moments don't come every day and you don't ever want them. No one wakes up in the morning and prays for a divorce. Nobody wakes up and hopes that today their child will be diagnosed with something disastrous. But those are the hidden gifts in life that hopefully, if you let them, will tear you apart, make you question everything you believe, everyone you let into your circle, everything you value and hold there, and reform it deliberately instead of what we do is all of our context from how we grew up, all of our pre-existing stereotypes and beliefs that were instilled in us by somebody else external. We hold on to those because it's a safe little circle of serenity. If I don't ask the questions, then I don't need to be unsafe. Whereas the minute you have to ask those questions, you're forced, you design your own life.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

And it's those labels again that we put on things.

SPEAKER_03 12:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

You know, that's all right. Everything starts off neutral. You can either label it good or you can label it bad.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

I'm actually going through a business coaching process at the moment, which is really valuable. And part of it is have you sat down with yourself and asked yourself, who am I? So identity.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:55

And I hope that people can do that on an annual basis, not just once. Because you change so much in a year, so much changes in the world around us. Can we position for ourselves, who am I? And the answer is not a mom. The answer is not CMO of cars.coza. The answer is not a wife. It's a lot more laid and complex. And every time you come up with a label, can you then re-ask yourself the same question? Okay, okay, that label is signed. Who am I? And it gets deep.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

And it's hard to have those conversations alone. Yeah. To be with yourself.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

So one of the best gifts, and I'm probably not allowed to talk about this on camera, but it's been years. We'll switch it on. I'm joking. Like living dangerously. One of the greatest gifts was pre-survivor. They take you to Samoa, in my case, and you're checked into a really dodgy little motel somewhere you don't know where you are, you've been blindfolded and arrived. And you spend one week at this stage, when they check you in, you don't know how long you're going to be there. Nobody tells you how long. You're just waiting to go to the island. Can you imagine? No communication with anybody. You're given a box of food in a polystyrene box three times a day by a Samoan who does not speak English. And it is you alone with your thoughts for in my case, it was seven days. On the seventh day, they came and collected me for the island. I journaled. There's nothing to do. There's no TV, there's no phone, there's no radio. Literally, you sit in a room. I did little gym workouts. I trained myself to sleep without blankets at night with the windows open so I get more comfortable on the island. Um, I did uh read a lot of books, uh, took a couple books with me that I was allowed to read there. But I journaled. I wrote and I wrote and I wrote alone in silence. And it was one of the most valuable times of my life. And it's the one promise I made to myself that I've broken, and I've broken it every year because we get busy. I promised myself in that room that I would do that every year, even if it's for two days I'd go away by myself every year and do that.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

And I don't think we break those promises because we get busier. I think because we get comfortable. You were in an uncomfortable situation and it forced you to do those things. Yes. And we get comfortable and then we it's almost self-sapote sabotage. We wait for the uncomfortableness to come back.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

I wish. Well, that's why we're here, right? Is to try and encourage people to chase discomfort intentions.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Exactly it. And that's why rather go find it before it comes to you. I believe in that.

SPEAKER_03 15:30

Correct. Endurance sports, extreme hobbies, mountains, tough conversations with your kids.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Yeah. Society, you're an ambitious woman. Okay. All these titles and everything. Do you think society punishes ambitious women or rewards them?

SPEAKER_03 15:52

This is one of the reasons why I'm so grateful for Mrs. South Africa as a journey. Because it it forced me to go on a journey of not caring what people think, but really on a deep level. And then Survivor did the same. Uh, there were points where there were death threats in my inbox on social media because I'd voted somebody that they loved out. Literally. They were signing petitions to bring them back, even though it was aired afterwards. I don't you're you're in Mrs. South Africa, you're posting about your like tanning lotion and you're is that me? Like that was never me. But I did it because it was my job. That was my job, and I want to do it to the best of my ability, and I don't care what anyone thinks. I wished I'd learned that early on in life because I that's a skill I never, it's a muscle you have to train. And society doesn't matter. Society is uh a reflection of their own insecurities and projecting them onto you. And the more successful you are, the more outspoken you are, the more of that resistance you're gonna face. And I I do wish it. And I embrace a lot of those conversations with my kids when they get society feedback at school, and I have to sit down and unpack it with them and say, why does this matter to you? You should only really take valued counsel from the people that you respect in your life, and that's not even always blood.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Yeah, especially as an adult. What guilt do you carry that no one sees on that?

SPEAKER_03 17:35

I've also learned recently that you cannot be in perfect balance and harmony all the time. And to achieve anything significant in life, you need to be out of balance for certain periods of time. And if you have your your core pillars and things that you hold together, like your family and your career and your friendships and your health, if you want one of them to really absolutely take over, you're likely going to sacrifice one or two of the others. And so the guilt that I suppose I hold is I wish that I had deliberately invested more in friendship and woman in my lives in my life. Because at the end of the day, your legacy really is the six to twelve people who really sob their heart out at your funeral. That's that's the only thing that matters. No Instagram post matters. No one's gonna remember some mountain you climbed, they really don't care. It's those people that you actually made a difference in their lives on a personal level, and to have this level of ambition comes at the price of quality intentional time with people.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

What has happened though with women and friends? Because this podcast started a year ago as a men's mental health podcast. Okay, we were into episode three, and I started getting DMs from women going, What about us? What about us? What about us? What about us? I then got Danny Painter from Jack Rand FM on.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

She's amazing. Iconic.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Um, I got her on, and she spoke about her journey and her husband um or partner dying and almost taking pills and committing suicide, etc. And it just blew up with the woman. And then Felicity came on, Felicity Regan came on, and we spoke, and we realize we came to the conclusion that women also don't have friends anymore. Women are now keeping things bottled up. Where did that change? Because women used to go sit, and if it's drink coffee or wine or whatever it might be and talk and not now, like that has all changed. It's not happening anymore.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

I'm gonna challenge that. And maybe be a bit controversial because of my bias. I am not a girly girl. I am not a seven-minute voice note kind of girl. I am not a let's sit down and drink wine for three hours and talk about our spouse's mistakes kind of girl. And I don't think a lot of women are that kind of girl.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

I think it's changed.

SPEAKER_03 20:25

Yeah, it has changed, but I think it's always been different. And women have been trying to fit into an idea of motherhood, fit into an idea of what a girly girly friendship looks like. We also sometimes want to just punch someone on the arm and then get over it or go and play paddle together, not even talk about the kids. And then that's a friendship. Like send each other 17 memes one night and then not speak for three months. And that's also okay. Because now suddenly we're as ambitious as the guys, we're as busy as the guys. And sometimes we just want a playful, low pressure friendship that is sporadically has these touch points of depth where you need them without that stereotype and that label.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

No, I agree with you. And I think it's also the whole the where the changes come is like you say, we we're as strong as the guys now. There's no other women's, yeah, the guys, yeah, the woman's, yeah, type of vibe. Um, it's an equal playing field now.

unknown 21:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:25

Um and also like breaking down these labels of gender and breaking down the labels of sexuality, even. I mean, we used to have huge issues as a a tomboy trying to relate to and have fun and relationship with.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

You would be judged.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

Ah, 100%. I mean, no one's wife loves it when you're in mates with their husband. And yet, there needs to be a breakdown of what that means and looks like and a responsibility more on do you know somebody and trust somebody and let them into your circle? Without placing a label of judgment from your own insecurity. In your own past. I come from a relationship where I've been cheated on with my best friend for a year without me having any idea. Do you know how many insecurities that's created? Do you know how much work I've had to do to be okay with my husband having a really healthy relationship with other strong women? It's important. Do you know and trust somebody enough? Your trust is in that person, not in your own insecure context.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Yeah. That must have been hard work too, eh? Alone. Like I can't even comment on that. I wouldn't be able to deal with that. So talking about judging.

unknown 22:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

People say you can have it all. Social media portrays that for a lot of people. Do you believe that?

SPEAKER_03 22:46

I think we need to. What is have it all? Who made that up? Because I see, especially in Johannesburg, but especially in South Africa, this disease of more. I even fall into it sometimes. I have to be honest, like business-wise, me personally and ambition, I've always wanted leadership. I've always aspired to be a great leader that people want to work with and go to war with. But I also just love some days being a creative. I love just making cool, crazy chaos. It's so fun. And to think that I don't have to have a label or a title of success to now be having it all. Like just to make crazy, cool, creative chaos in my garage is success. There's a different label. And I suppose one of the advantages I have is I lived in Clarence for a year with my family on a farm. And you really do have to stop and think, what is having it all mean? Because everything comes at a price.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

To me, living in Clarence on a farm sounds like having it all. I'm not gonna hide you.

SPEAKER_03 23:53

It was. I my family makes fun of me. I often, every time I'm having fun and exuberance, I'm very expressive and I will just shout like best day ever. It's like it's like my thing, best day ever. And every day is the best day ever. And yeah, there's some dark days. But how about just embracing like, and it's I know it's toxic positivity 101. Or is it just accepting that there's things that I can and can't change? And I'm gonna do my best today and actually love what I've got instead of complain, complaining and moaning about things I can't change. That's having it all.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Delusional optimist. That's my favorite two words. What's something you had to sacrifice? That's those things.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

My kids' innocence. It was hard. Um I hear it in podcasts all the time about these successful people who uh had a really dark childhood and they attribute their success to their dark childhood. But when asked, Are you raising your kids with hardship? They say no. I I can't. I hope to give them the best life I know how. And our journey as a family has come at the expense of my kids and their innocence. They've had to go through divorce, removing, getting uh disappointment in people, hard conversations. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. Their innocence was sacrificed for their growth and for our honesty. So there's always a trade-off, and I wouldn't change it, I don't regret it, but I hated it for them. I hate that my kids had to go through something hard. And I think anybody who's been through divorce or disease or hardship as a family feels the same. You don't want that for your kids.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

No, you don't. And I've gone through a divorce, and I always look at my two kids and I think, like, is this trauma or is this growth? And I'm hoping that there's growth and not the trauma. It's always growth. To be honest.

SPEAKER_03 26:00

It's always growth.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

And I've had these conversations with them. Like you say, you've got to have those hard conversations.

unknown 26:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

Do you think men and women experience parenting differently? The pressure of it?

SPEAKER_03 26:18

That's a very good question, because you know me, I don't like these labels, right? I have a 10-year-old daughter who, without any influence of social media, without watching a YouTube channel, without um having any connectivity at all, decided they didn't like being referred to as a girl or princess or um uh little girl, um what are some of the others? Honey, darling, um, sweet pea, um all those nicknames. Yeah, anything that refers to you in a gender stereotypical way. And then started deciding. Like almost belittles you've got to be air, yeah. Deciding on their own that they're a human. Like I have just as much right to be here and express myself in any way I choose, regardless of whether I like pink or blue, wear dresses or pants. And so they like to be referred to as they and little human. And it makes them like swell with pride. So in my own home confronting gender stereotypes, men and women, I think the uh differences are the ones that society places on them and how they are expected to behave. And so parenting, uh responses to trauma, uh, marriage, divorce, all of these things are handled because this is how we think we should be expressing them as a man or a woman in our current society. So as a man, you're expected to be brave, you're expected to do certain things and behave certain ways. And the same for a woman as well. I'll never forget going through the the process of separation. The immediate feeling is guilt and it was my fault, and I have to show some kind of accountability here, because that's the label. You have to take that label. And we have a responsibility to stop judging each other and allow one another the space to express each other as you really feel. Because I watched my 14-year-old son grow up with freedom to say, okay, without this like toxic masculinity that's expected of you by the outside world, how do you really feel? And he breaks down and he cries and he talks about it and he does like healthy human things.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

If more men did that, they will there wouldn't be so uh the suicide rate wouldn't look the way it looks. They can learn from 14-year-old boys. Well, your son in those case. What is on that note? What is motherhood taught you about your own strength?

SPEAKER_03 29:12

Strength is in making mistakes, that's a bit because you actually just can't get it all right. And my husband says to me all the time, he says they actually grow up despite you, not because of you. And one day they will be sitting on someone's couch talking about their issues, and some of their issues will reference you, no matter how hard you try. And it's a healthy awakening that we are all figuring this out together. And even my kids when they do homework and they are struggling with new concepts at school, they have their homework and then they have this blank page next to them, and we call it a stuff up sheet. And the fuller their stuff up sheet is at the end of the homework session, the more we celebrate. And it's a small subconscious thing, but to start just celebrating, making mistakes.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

I love that actually. I'm gonna start doing that.

SPEAKER_03 30:07

I mean, I'm the earliest divorced Mrs. South Africa of all time.

unknown 30:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:11

My first big mountain climb, I was I made it. Let's just go I made it, but I was helicopter evacued from like 4,800 meters. It was a killy or at uh Everest Base Camp. Oh, okay. And suffered like massive health consequences after.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

I missed that when I stalked you.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

Failure is a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Yeah, and uh failure. Well, I don't even like that word failure.

unknown 30:36

Facts.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

And we never we're never gonna be perfect parents, are there? It's impossible. Our kids aren't gonna be perfect parents. There's gonna you you've gotta make those mistakes, like you say. You've got me thinking, you know.

SPEAKER_03 30:50

You've turned this podcast about tell me about me.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

So when you actually start realizing I'm stronger than what I thought, sure.

SPEAKER_03 31:08

That's why I'm so passionate about, especially women who've come from repressed backgrounds, to start doing adventurous things, because it was in the adventures that I learned my capacity. Um, mountain climbing is a silly example, and I love climbing in South Africa along the Drockensburg and in the cave, and there's some beautiful spots because you can actually summit in a day the entire escarpment. It is a kilometer vertical wall that when you've walked up and you camped and you walked back down and you turn around and you have that moment of realization that really like I did that, like me, and I'm not super a fit, I'm average at most things. This is one of my greatest skills is just being average and honest about it, is that all we did was walk. We just kept walking. And you grow that mental capacity that I can keep going, there's more in the tank, there's a little 10% less left. If I pause and like rest for a bit, I can pick it up and keep going just now. And that mental toughness is something that is parallel in business, parallel in relationships, parallel in family. And I learned that okay, I actually do have a little bit more in the tank.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

So, guys, she lies. She's very fit. There's Hyrux photos on Instagram. And if anyone's done the Hyrux, it's even hard.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

It's hard. It's just reality. I keep having this conversation with all my Hyrux mates. Guys, it's basically a participation badge for a fun run. Like you nobody, you don't have to tell anyone your time. One hour 19, by the way. But no, I I joke about it, but you could take six hours if you wanted to. Just go and do something hard.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Yeah, and it's actually such an awesome event. I was to tease the my Harak's friends, and I've done it twice, but I tease them too. Um, but it's actually an awesome event.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

What's your favorite sport?

SPEAKER_00 33:06

I'm American, I'm an endurance runner. Okay, so I'm getting comrades now for my fourth time. Wow, I think I've got 300 kilometers for the year, but I'm being a man the next week. I haven't tried actually got a substitution for comrades. That's all it is. It's muscle memory. Hopefully it kicks in. It will. Hopefully it kicks in. Motherhood. Do you think it unlocks a different power in women?

unknown 33:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Yeah, it does. I mean, you've said it, you went on all these adventures after having kids. So it's got to unlock that power.

SPEAKER_03 33:40

It only unlocks the power if you allow it to by designing your life deliberately. And that's going to mean upsetting people, going against the grain in society, and your community often judging you and saying things about you. Because all of us come from communities. I came from a very religious community upbringing, and they all had something to say about my choices. If you can ignore that and follow your intuition, we have such strong intuition as a woman. This gut is so powerful. Design your life deliberately to the point now that I have a very intense career. I chose it, I love it. But I've decided that my first amount of income every month is going to somebody who can take and fetch my kids from school, who can treat them, uh teach them and train them and do homework with them in the afternoons, so that I don't have to come home tired, do that with them, tear my hair out, go to sleep stressed. No. I came home last night, like half past five, we played board games all night. We had homemade pizza night and played katan, and I lost to my son. It was devastating. But like that didn't come by accident. It's it's hard choices.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Do me a favor, actually, on that note, talk to moms out there who feel guilty that when they go to gym in the evening, because some parents can only get to gym at six o'clock to the CrossFit class from six to seven or the Hyrux class, whatever it is you do, or go play paddle. And it's only after 4:30 or 5 o'clock that they can get and do this. And they feel guilty. There's so many of them out there.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

A lot of them. And I once read a beautiful book, and the author, a woman, very successful career woman, was on her way actually to attend the Oscars and was running out the door in this massive ball gown. And her kids were sitting on the carpet and they were playing Lego. And they said, twins, Mommy, mommy, please come and play with me, please. And she felt so guilty. And she actually just stopped. She sat down in a pile of Lego in her ball gown and she played Lego. And in about seven and a half minutes, the kids had moved on and they were watching Teletubbies because they didn't want to play Lego anymore. And she left seven and a half minutes late for the Oscars and had the best night of her life. And the lesson there is quality over quantity. And we make this mistake all the time as moms, thinking we always have to be there. And time is so limited, it's running out. You only have limited time. Take soak up every moment with your kids. No, you don't want every moment with your kids. There are traumatic, stressful, tantrum moments, figuring out awful homework that they want to tell you about their victory at the end of the day while you're playing Lego or Catan or Exploding Kittens is really fun.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Exploding kittens.

SPEAKER_03 36:39

Okay, we'll chat after this about exploding.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Okay. No, because yeah, guilt is a big thing, and you need time for yourself. Over and above health and wellness.

SPEAKER_03 36:51

If you're full, you come home with something to give the kids and you feel like you can sit down and have a conversation. If you're absolutely exhausted, and mums will be honest, if you're exhausted and you get home and dads, you've had a stressful day at the office, no outlet, sat in massive traffic to get home, and now you want to sit and play katan with your kids. You're gonna lose your mind. And that's why it doesn't happen. So rather go and take an extra hour for yourself. Go blow paddle, go like canoe around Emmerin Shadam, like whatever fools your soul, walk the dogs in the park by yourself. Take a glass of wine and a book to the patio and say it's mummy time, I need an hour. And then you can play half an hour card game before bed feeling the fullest version of yourself.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

Yeah, I love that. That is powerful. And if anyone takes anything from this podcast, that's the one thing I want you to take. So I know the answer to this, and I'm sure because you mentioned it a few times in the beginning. The hardest moment as a mother that you've because I want to get into relationships and support systems. Yeah. And I think those things are important because you spoke about those six or seven people at your funeral that really care. Um, what was that hardest moment?

SPEAKER_03 38:04

So actually, I described one of the hardest moments earlier when one daughter was diagnosed.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:09

But I'll I'll give you one harder. Imagine that your child's diagnosed with a rare, life-limiting genetic disease that's technically your fault because you gave it to them without knowing, and you can't fix it. There's nothing you can do, you cannot even take it for yourself. Then take it one step further and say, There's a cure, but you can never get it. There's something out there that can fix their life and give them a full life, give them hope, and you can't get it for them. I'll never forget the day that they launched Tricafta as a triple therapy for cystic fibrosis. It's a genetic therapy that costs approximately six million rand a year. And I sat there in a uh all alone by myself and I wept. And I just thought, I could never, like I'm sorry, I I don't know in my I'm good at financial planning and career planning, and I'm ambitious, and I want to be successful, but six million rand over and above your living expenses every year for the rest of their life as long as they live, that I could realistically give that to them? And the answer was no. It's just it's not gonna happen. And there'll be people that it will have their lives saved, and I can't help. And then, well, I've got a social media platform, I could go and ask money, you know, from I could go and ask for money and I could campaign for my child. How do you, with integrity, and I know people do it, how do I fight for my child and not yours? How do I advocate for my sick kid? And mine is more important than yours because I'm famous on social media. That sickens me to my stomach. So, like working with rare diseases, working with cysticibrosis association, those things, it's for a collective group of people that are affected. That that is okay in my mind. But there was no answer, and I had no answer. And for me, A-type, fix everything, there's always a solution. I just fell apart. Uh, and I was I was devastated. And I just maybe want to take the lesson from that for for other parents out there is that in your darkest, darkest moments, like those moments you want to give up, those moments you just what is it all for? Life is so unfair, life is cruel, life is hard on your kids, it's hard on you. There is hope. Like just ride this freaking roller coaster. Hold on as hard as you can, because in those dark moments, I promise you, there will be lighter ones and probably highs that you never expected. One of those was getting called in for a random checkup for my daughter for cystic fibrosis. Every year we do all the blood and sitting in that doctor's chair, and he said, Right, it's time. Between a fund and your medical aid, it's covered.

unknown 41:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 41:07

It arrives in two weeks. I I I actually I sobbed. I was like, no, it's just it can't be. My daughter was sitting with me at the time, was eight and a half, like, just started crying spontaneously in the doctor's rooms. And this is a kid who doesn't even want to talk about marriage and never wants to have kids because they don't know if they'll make it to their 18th birthday. Now gets to live a normal life. Somebody's been swallowing handfuls of capsules and nebulizing four times a day just to look normal, doesn't have to do that anymore. Really?

unknown 41:43

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

That is a I I couldn't have predicted that. No. But I might have given up. And um I'm yeah, if if anybody's listening and wants to give up, like on life as in general, I know what that feels like. I think as a mom, it's even harder because you feel trapped, you can't give up because then they're alone. But there will be better days. You just can never anticipate what they'll be. Did you ever read those books called Choose Your Own Adventure?

SPEAKER_02 42:12

Mm-mm.

SPEAKER_03 42:13

Okay, so that was super cool. You put your, as you turn the page, it'll say, uh, if you choose to go up the hill, go to page 34, or if you choose to go up the hill.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

I'm with you. I'm with you.

SPEAKER_03 42:25

And you choose, like you're actually deciding the storyline based on your choice. It's so cool. I mean, uh, Netflix now does it with bad roles, you can choose which ending you follow. And I used to stick my fingers in all the pages in case I made a mistake in life, and I could just go back and rewind. And life doesn't work like that, but it kind of does if you hold on long enough.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

Yeah, and that's the thing, people don't hold on long enough. You give up the day before, could have been the next day.

SPEAKER_03 42:51

A good friend of mine, she said, these ups and downs, they're like so extreme, and you sometimes find like, what is the point of all of this? Until you realize that this is a heartbeat, and this means you're alive, and that is a gift.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

I love that. I'm gonna remember that. It's so cool. Shout out to that friend. I love that. Becoming a mother changes relationships, spouse, partner, whatever, friends, family. Did it change any of yours?

SPEAKER_03 43:31

Yes, it's a new phase in your life and that attracts different people and you're on different paths. And I think it's important to realize I had a very immature understanding of um friendships, relationships, and especially marriage. I think people are in your life for a season and that that's not a bad thing. Disney lied to us. It really did, and it set us up for a lot of failure. This idea that marriage is forever. It can be. It can be wonderful. Okay. This idea that friendships are forever. Like you have these school friends and you grow old together and you go on road trips your whole life together. It can be. But it is not the be all and end all. And that is not what having it all looks like. I I really I learned that you can have phases in your life with different careers, different people, and you actually have a far richer experience of life with that. As long as you're not deliberately seeking the next high or the next phase.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

And do we ever stop seeking that though?

SPEAKER_03 44:39

Sometimes those phases happen to you. You weren't looking for them. I can attest to that. I would never have changed if somebody hadn't uh taken me on that unwilling journey. Um I'm secretly very grateful on an unsecret podcast uh for other people's mistakes because it set me free, the experience of rich full life. But sometimes it's self-directed. Um I've heard a lot of couples do uh sit down and have regular meetings. Like, where are you in life? Where do you want to go? Where am I, where do I want to go? Do those align? And that's very pragmatic, hey? That's like, cool, are we still on the same path? Still good?

SPEAKER_00 45:19

Like you said, things change very quickly.

SPEAKER_03 45:21

There's a lot more parallel with uh between a relationship and business than we think we'd like to give credit for. You're actually in a business relationship with each other for one another's mutual benefit. And I didn't know that early on. I would I made a lot of mistakes early on, and I've learned them only the second time around.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

That's what counts.

SPEAKER_03 45:41

You're an independent adult, and so is somebody else. You're each on your own independent journey. And how are you supporting that person in your journey? Like all these illusions about showing up as your most authentic self. If I did that in front of my kids and my spouse, they'd hate me. There's moments for transparency, but there's also moments to show up as the best version of yourself for your people. If you do it for your boss, why don't you do it at home?

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Correct. That's the tough question. Why don't you do it at home? Comfort.

SPEAKER_03 46:15

Comfort, because there's nobody threatening you with a uh KPIs this quarter. No one's saying, Oh, let's do your quarterly review. Where's our quarterly marriage review? I'm serious, not in the middle of a fight to say, you this, you that, you didn't know. Like, are we gonna sit down regularly and say, Are you happy? Are there things that I could change to better support you?

unknown 46:34

Really?

SPEAKER_00 46:35

I was once at an event this year of Investic, and we got chatting and uh and he's been married for years, and I said, and she and his wife, I'm gonna lie, and I think she was FD for Old Mutual or something, but also a high-profile job. I said, How do you guys do that? He's like, we go once a month for counseling. If it's good or bad. Sometimes we go there and we don't even know what to say because there's no problems. But we make sure we do that once a month for ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

It's also healthy accountability. Again, you would do it in a business environment because if you don't, you lose your job. What's more important, your job or your marriage, your job or your relationship with your kids? Do you sit down and do an audit with your kids every now and then? How am I doing? Do you feel supported?

SPEAKER_00 47:17

What have I done wrong? Yeah. That's actually very true. Support. What support do mothers need that they don't get?

SPEAKER_03 47:31

Support from themselves. They don't um I know I didn't. Have healthy self-talk, have healthy routines and rituals to invest in yourself. There are lots of support groups out there. There are lots of friends who are willing to hold your hand. You have to actually choose to hold them, you have to put your hand up. And we do this self-deprecating, um, selfless act of uh martyrism because we think that's the label we need to wear. However, putting your hand up for help, phoning a friend is all self-initiated. And it just comes down to are you a victim in your life and circumstances or are you taking ownership? And taking ownership means owning, looking after yourself. To use you feed your kids a multivitamin, are you taking one? No. Why not? I have to make choices and say, no, if you're not healthy, your kids are not healthy. And that's a stupid example, but it applies across the board.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Have you ever felt lonely in motherhood, even when there were people around you?

SPEAKER_03 48:37

So lonely. It's one of the loneliest things. But I it's also self-inflicted. And when you said earlier, everything comes at a cost. My career choices and my life choices have come at the price of intimacy with people because our society still takes social media and paints a picture for people that even your closest friends believe. And it's not disingenuous. That's my real life that I share, but it's just a billboard, guys. Like it's for business, it's for self-expression, it's it's not who I am, and it's definitely not how I'm feeling. Like we can still sit down and have a conversation, and you can say to me, How are you, really? Like, what did you do last weekend? Not, oh, there was a cool post uh photo of last weekend. It must have been cool. The assumption that you know somebody because of social media shouldn't strip away intimacy. And I have definitely felt lonely in the profile that I've built deliberately for myself.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

How important is community though for mothers? And why and what like even men, but in this case, women lack it? Why are is this community thing lacking?

SPEAKER_03 49:51

I don't have the answer for that. I wish I knew.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

I think community is we may be afraid of judgment, I'm thinking now. Like, why would I not want to sit in a circle and talk about my problems? Embarrassed judgment, those labels.

unknown 50:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:10

And it's such a definition of success, especially as a woman, is motherhood. And the minute you ask for help, you're failed. So it's a real mark against your character. We I think for the guys to hang out and have a beer after work and say, Oh, I did it again. I tore apart my daughter for not knowing how to tie her shoelaces because I was stressed. And they can have a laugh about it, but do that as a mum, and they'll look at you funny, and you feel like a failure. And I think it's culturally something we need to change, but I don't know how.

SPEAKER_00 50:40

Yeah. Support groups, but uh, does that even work? You go once or twice and you're still getting judged. I'm gonna say something. And this is as a man or woman.

SPEAKER_03 50:50

Really cliched and really cheesy, but just like be the be the solution, like build a community, start a little book club or a a wine club, or uh you know, make I've got really cool friends who actually deliberately take time and energy and resources to do hard things, to deliberately build community. I'm not there yet. Uh I aim to be there.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

What is it though, a society that makes motherhood especially harder for people? Like why why are they doing that to themselves?

SPEAKER_03 51:27

If you think about it, we've been parenting it since the beginning. If you think about it, we have been parenting since the beginning of time. Like it's not a new concept, but the amount of pressure associated with it is new. I think because there's a greater level of awareness and education, we now I didn't even raise my kids early on with AI. You can ask Gemini now for like a guide on parenting or what to do when something goes wrong. Never mind, like we used to say back in our day, like we could Google it. Now we could like ask Gemini, or we could. Yeah, there's a pressure to know everything, to be everything that we didn't have before. Whereas we're all just figuring it out.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Do you think we're raising our kids to be ready for the real world?

SPEAKER_03 52:18

I know I am. I don't think we are in general. And I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I am deliberately raising my kids for the real world.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

And by doing that, you're just being honest with them.

unknown 52:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:29

And that's all it takes, is honesty.

SPEAKER_03 52:31

100%. Just unfiltered, pure honesty. Um, and I've watched people in my kids' lives who have made the mistake of trying to protect them and hide things from them, and they think it's in their best interests, and they've just lost trust over time. They don't want to spend time with them, ask them questions, learn from them. They want the real.

SPEAKER_00 52:54

If you could change one thing about how the world treats mothers, what would it be?

SPEAKER_03 53:06

I wish that the world just didn't see us as mothers. I wish from in my daughter's words, I wish the world saw me as a human. A capable, functional human. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 53:22

What kind of woman do you hope your children see you as?

SPEAKER_03 53:30

I know that they see me as strong, but I hope they see me as kind. That's the combination that I'd like to be. Also a little bit crazy.

SPEAKER_00 53:47

I love that. So this is gonna be on YouTube. And if your child listened to this one day, what would you want them to understand about you?

SPEAKER_03 54:03

Wow, that is so deep. That is so scary. That kind of, I mean, you you think all the time like creating something permanent that your kids might one day discover. Hi, kids.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

I've got goosebumps.

SPEAKER_03 54:20

I hope that you know that everything that I did in my life was because of you. So I owe you everything. But my only hope in doing it was that you felt you were capable to do way greater than I've ever done. And greater is not a title, it's not an amount of money in your bank account. You could be serving drinks in a tiki bar in Greece. It's that you feel the ability to design your life and your own happiness because I did it. Because of you.

SPEAKER_00 55:01

Nicole. Thank you. I think what it I've taken out of this as a dad is there's no perfect way to be a parent. There's no balance, actually. It's always gonna be an up and a down. Never gonna balance. Thank you for your vulnerability.

SPEAKER_03 55:21

Thank you for that cool chat.

SPEAKER_00 55:22

This was awesome.

SPEAKER_03 55:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

We're out.