The Science of Endurance, Mark Wolff (Founder of 32Gi)

Marathon Training, Nutrition & Recovery starts long before race day. In this episode of  The Endure Edge Podcast, endurance expert and 32Gi Founder, Mark Wolff, shares decades of experience helping athletes optimize performance through smarter training, proper nutrition, effective recovery, and science-backed endurance strategies.

Whether you're preparing for your first marathon or chasing a personal best, this conversation dives into the principles that separate successful endurance athletes from the rest. We discuss marathon training, fueling strategies, hydration, recovery, overtraining, race preparation, sports nutrition, and the growing conversation around peptides in endurance sports.

If you're interested in marathon training, running performance, sports nutrition, endurance training, or recovery science, this episode is packed with practical insights that every runner can apply.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

We're back on Ingrid Age, still number one health and wellness podcast. And today we've got the number one the number one brand supplement founder, co-founder from 32G. I'm Mark Wolf. Hey Dick. Hey, mate. See you again. And I'm excited to do this and pick your brain with no interruptions. Um, but before we start, who is Mark Wolf?

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Uh it's a good question. Um I'm just a normal human being. Uh I guess uh that you know I came from an engineering background, and uh in my 20s I fell very ill. And uh I think that a lot of people take health for granted. I certainly did at that young age. And um it took me a long time to regain my health. And I think when you lose your health, you start to really value it a lot more. Uh, you'll do anything in your power to get it back. And that was life-changing for me. That changed my life completely. That's when I moved into a completely different uh, I would say, industry, different market. Uh, landed up studying physiology, anatomy, moved into nutrition, uh, moved into sports science, and then even into blood chemistry. And uh my focus has always been um that health should be the foundation, the platform of everything on which you should be able to build um endurance, strength, etc. But without the foundation of health, um there's no ways you can do that. So my goal is uh, and I tell this to everybody, is to live to 100 like a 20-year-old, at least with the functionality and maybe the cognitive function of a 20-year-old. Uh, that's my wish for everybody actually on the planet. Um, and the idea is to figure out this journey uh which involves a lot of different aspects.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

On the uh on the the question of living to a hundred, are we getting to the stage where we're actually going to pass a hundred?

SPEAKER_00 2:15

I think that the generation that we that we are at the moment, uh I I think hundred is not going to be a difficult number to reach uh based on where medical technology and science has taken us. Uh but as as we've spoken about before, I think you've there's a fork in the road. And um I think either farmers gonna keep you alive to 100, like 100 or 110-year-old, which is lack of quality of life. And then I think that the other fork that you could take is make the correct choices where you may be a little bit of a bankruptcy case for farmer, you're not their billion-dollar customer that they want to hang on to, uh, but you can live to 100 with a lot better functionality, uh, better quality of life, and and really, really preserve that health span as you age.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Before we get into the technical stuff, I want to dive a little bit into what got you into endurance sports. Was it curiosity, the performance side of things?

SPEAKER_00 3:22

I think to be honest, endurance athletes are addicts. We can we all got I think I think one of the biggest common denominators amongst us is that we do have these addictive personalities, and I think how you channel that addiction is very important. You can channel it into something that's negative energy or positive energy. In my case, I've channeled it into health and wellness, and obviously, exercise is definitely um an addiction for most people. It does stimulate endorphins. We know that it makes you feel good, and people crave this. Um, people crave the start, the finish line, the medals, and they're goaded over and over again. Look, I came from a background where at school I did a lot of sport. Um, I played all the sports, it was compulsory. Uh I wasn't like a top athlete at school, but I used to really enjoy it and I delved in a lot of different disciplines uh from rugby to cricket to squash to athletics to swimming. And yeah, so I was like this jack of all trades, but never an expert of each one. And uh I loved squash actually, to be quite honest. Uh there I played at quite a nice level and I really enjoyed it. And then when I left school and I went to university, I was introduced to the gym. And uh I couldn't even bench press a bar, it was terrible. I suffered. And there was this friend of mine bench pressing plates, and I'm thinking, no ways. And that's when, you know, I've got a competitive uh personality, uh, definitely competitive. Uh, whether it was academic or whether it was sport, uh definitely I used to I used to enjoy competing. It was a challenge. And I decided, no, if I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna channel the focus. And so I got really good at strength. I became a very heavy lifter, and for many years I lifted extremely heavy weights. I got involved with uh people from the powerlifting community uh that used to do quite a bit of weightlifting. I had uh training partners, we used to push very heavy weights, and and and and I grew from like a 6 maybe 3 or 62 kilogram uh matriculant to like a 112 kilogram gorilla. And then I fell ill in my 20s and I realized, okay, too much. Um also I I didn't feel fit, I didn't feel healthy walking up flights of stairs. Obviously, it was, you know, used to exert more, uh needed more force, and I realized, okay, you need to, you need to calm down. And that's when I moved back to endurance sports. Uh started with mountain biking, used to even teach spinning classes in the gym, started combining uh sort of endurance exercise with uh strength and trying to find a balance. And I've tended to do that, I guess, for the last 35 years, trying to find that balance. But there were stages where endurance went to the forefront, you know, moving into things like marathon running, triathlons, iron man, etc. Um, eventually, you know, you do if you're gonna do events like that, you need to dedicate a lot of time and effort to it. Um, it is time consuming. But now at my old age, well, not too old, but hopefully, actually, if you live to 100 like a 20-old, I'm just over halfway. So um I I I think strength work at this age is so much more important than actually endurance from a longevity point of view or from a health span point of view. And so cardiorespiratory fitness is still very important, but including incorporating strength uh as a foundation, you know, discipline is is actually very important.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

So is there actually a balance between endurance and strength? Can you can can an athlete find that balance?

SPEAKER_00 7:13

I think you can, but again, what is your focus? What is your goal? You you can't overdo strength if you want to run. I I guess you can maybe today we're seeing it. We're seeing strength athletes easily running 245 marathons. They're muscle monsters running 245 marathons, but they've also got excellent engines. Uh physiologically, they they they've got amazing, you know, uh performance markers. So I think there is definitely a balance between the two that you can find. Um, not going to be a you know a close to two-hour marathon runner, but if you can run a sub-three hour marathon and you can combine that with a lot of strength, I think that is very impressive, to be quite honest.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Yeah, in my dreams. Right there. Um okay, so take us through, let's talk running. Take us through a week on how it should be broken up for a marathon. Someone training for a marathon, it's an amateur athlete, not an elite athlete. How should he be training for a marathon and include strength into that?

SPEAKER_00 8:24

So actually, Jesse and I were chatting about that a little bit earlier. Uh the difficult thing is strength work obviously loads the muscles and can fatigue them. So, how how you you can't really do a heavy leg strength session, say on a Friday, and then expect to do a long or hard run on a Saturday or a Sunday. So you've got to obviously, you know, sort of pick those goal sessions and try and work the strength in and around it. So, just as a simple example, um, you know, my longer endurance sessions would be on a Saturday or a Sunday. And Saturday is definitely like I would do maybe long rides or longer runs. Uh, and this weekend was a simple example where Saturday I did a nice long ride. And Sunday, instead of doing a long run, I did like a 6K warm-up run and then into some very heavy left leg strength. Okay. And the reason I did that was because I know that my legs need to recover because I am going to put in some focused endurance sessions maybe Tuesday or Thursday this week. So I'll put the leg strength session at the beginning of the week so that they recover, which obviously allows me to be able to achieve the other session goals. So it is about finding the balance. I think a lot of people also don't realize that you know you can let your legs recover and you can still work upper body. You know, you've got back biceps, triceps, core, all these kinds of uh different areas of the body that you can work quite nice and hard and the legs can always be fresh. So it's a matter of trying to, you know, figure out that that balance and and and work the sessions and around it. It's also very easy to do a very heavy leg strength session, and then the next day you could do a recovery ride to try and flush the legs, etc., and and allow them to recover and then you know carry on working. But obviously, it also depends on the age of an individual. How long does it take you to recover from a session? You know, with me nearly 55, it takes me a lot longer to recover. I'm not it's not like when I was in my twenties or thirties. Uh you've got to respect the the rate of recovery.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

What did your younger self believe about training that you completely disagree with today?

SPEAKER_00 10:41

So when I was younger, I think that we were very much high volume training individuals. We would do a lot of volume. Uh it was always about how many kilometers did you run this week, how many kilometers did you cycle this week. Uh when it came to strength, it's like, you know, how how many reps and how many how much weight did you lift? Uh obviously with strength athletes, I mean, it's all about, you know, the amount of weight that they're lifting. And I I think that I've realized one thing as I've gotten older is that less is actually more. In other words, when you hit a particular discipline and you hit it hard and you allow for that recovery process to truly take place, that's when you really start to adapt and progress over time. And you know, some of my best marathons that I ever ran were three days of running a week. Some of the fastest run. And and and to be quite honest, it was and I was being guided by a coach at the time, and it was a matter of cross-training. He understood that I did strength, he understood that I did uh cycling as well. And if the goal was a run, it was like, how do we keep the running focus but lend the cross-training in and around it? And it worked extremely well. So I I I realized then, um you know, am I doing enough to be able to achieve what I want to do? And in the end, you realize actually it worked out quite well. So yes, you can do that, you can achieve it.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

You spoke about having a coach. How important is it for an amateur athlete to have a coach and be guided?

SPEAKER_00 12:27

So even me being a coach. If if if I'm if I'm if I'm gonna do an event, I always okay, so let me put it this way. When you are training, it's a little bit biased because you're in the situation. But if you've got somebody looking at the situation from the outside and really analyzing where you are at any moment in time, what's working, what's not working, and guiding you, um, I think that you're getting an outside perspective which will definitely play a huge benefit in you know, where you know, in in in sort of the journey that you're navigating on and in achieving that goal. And I've realized that it does work very, very well. Uh many years ago, I had a goal where I was a very strong cyclist, I was a strong swimmer, my running was very poor, and if I was doing triathlon, I realized I had to up my running game. And so I got hold of a coach at the time that was introduced to me. Uh a coach that was international overseas, and very well known actually, and uh actually dealt with uh Olympian triathletes at the time. And I just said to him, This is my goal. And he said, Okay, perfect. We we stopped focusing on cycling, but you're not gonna stop cycling, we stopped focusing on swimming, we put the focus into the running, and this is what we're gonna do. And he says, You we're gonna do this for two years, and for two years there was just running focus, uh, but still doing the other disciplines. And I came back to triathlon where I was a strong swimmer and a cyclist, and I was a very weak runner. It used to bug me because like everybody would pat me on the back and say, Oh, I'll see if the finish line mark. And I'd be struggling to get to the finish line. And all of a sudden, you know, if you think about triathlon, uh you can be a hunter, you know, or you can or you can be hunted. Yeah. And um, if you're a strong swimmer and a cyclist and a weak runner, you're gonna be hunted. If you're uh if you're a if you're a a decent swimmer and a decent biker, and you're a very strong runner, you are the hunter. You know, you're gonna you're gonna hunt people down. And all of a sudden, like it had changed for me completely. I I I fell in love with running, I enjoyed the running, and I became a very, very strong runner. Um, you know, my he took me to my first marathon, and my first marathon was two hours 55 minutes. And that for me was like an incredible achievement. It was like, wow, I didn't even realize you could run sub three. If you've never done a marathon before, how do you run sub three? He showed me it can be done with the correct focus, the correct discipline, and also not even overrunning, just running to the you know, to to the right amount of volume and quality that's needed on a weekly basis and and doing all the other disciplines around that.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

What's the biggest misconception in endurance training when it comes to coaching?

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Um there's so many aspects to it. I think that um you know, working with working with people, you realise that it's not so much always about the training because most people that we work with have got daily lives, they've got families, they've got jobs uh which are basically definitely nine to five or eight to six or whatever it is. And uh everybody's also got a lot of life stresses, they've possibly also got children, and you start to realize that the human factor plays a massive role when it comes to any kind of endurance sport or any form of other training. A lot of amateur athletes like myself start to train like pro-athletes, um, but you've still got to be a working professional, you've got to be a family professional, and it's very hard to juggle all of this because it's it's it demands time, it's very time consuming. So I I think one of the biggest things that I've learned over the years is like somebody will come to me and say, I want to do an Iron Man, and I'm like, yeah, it's it's nice to do that, but you need permission from the other half because it could be a divorce degree. No, for sure. It demands a lot of time, it demands a lot of effort, and you've also got to be very realistic with yourself as if you've got the time and the opportunity to be able to give the focus to this if it's needed. A lot of people want to just do it because, hey, I want the medal, but sometimes they don't realize what they're getting into. I had an athlete uh last year um who entered Cape Epic, and he's just phoned me out of the blue and says, I'm Mark, I'm doing Cape Epic, and yeah, you're just gonna help me get through it. I said to him, but aren't you moving from Johannesburg to Cape Town? And he and he says, Yes, yes, but we'll get through it. And and this was like probably 10, 11 months out, so it's still a long time. And he and he and he he's pretty much a solid athlete. So he had a good foundation on which you would be able to build. And I said to him, and his family had moved to Cape Town and his business was still in Joburg, and it was backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards. And I just said to him, like, you really need to be realistic. It's like immigrating, it's one of the biggest stresses you can have. It's like moving, you're moving still cities, it is like moving countries, and I really think you should put it off. Anyway, though, the the answer was no, no, no, we're gonna do it, we're gonna do it. And yeah, I think it was about four or five months before the event, he touched base with me and he said, You were 100% spot. And he says, There's there's just he says, I just can't put in the consistency and the training that's required to get through an event like this. So I think when it comes to endurance sport, the the biggest, one of the biggest misconceptions is, oh, I'm just gonna do that event, or I'm gonna do that event, or you know, uh I've got two months or three months. You've got to be extremely realistic about what the goal is, and you've got to understand the time that you can dedicate to the training for that particular goal. And you've really got to also give yourself a sufficient amount of time to build to that particular goal. You can't rush anything because we know that with any kind of sports discipline, it's all about consistency over time that's going to get you to where you need to go. And the biggest problem is if you do rush the process, you will end up hurting yourself. Maybe from a health point of view, it can land up with injury or illness, uh, emotional point of view, stress point of view. I mean, there's so many things that can happen, and and I think that that's something that really doesn't get addressed enough.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

So on that note, running has taken South Africa by storm.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Well, it's taken it's taken the whole world by storm. Everyone wants to run.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Every Tom Decanary out there wants to run. How much time do you need to give yourself for a half marathon? How much time do you need to give yourself to train for a full marathon?

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Look, I think it depends on the individual. It depends on what they're you know, what is their level of fitness at any particular time when they enter into a discipline. Are they ready runners? How long have they been running for? Uh maybe they're cyclists that have entered running. Uh I always say to people, a cyclist entering running, very hard. A runner going into cycling, it's also hard, but it's a lower impact sport than running. So maybe they would probably cope with it a little bit better. But I think with any event, you know, it depends on the level of ability that an individual has. If somebody has never ever done a 5 or a 10K and suddenly wants to do a half marathon, well, you've got to be realistic. Like baby steps, first build to 5K, build to 10K, maybe build to 50, then to 20, you know, and and and take it like that. So I I always say to people, you know, little baby steps and stepping stones along the way, you don't just jump into the big guns and you know, say, I'm just gonna do it. It's like I I there was somebody that I met a few years ago who said he started running in October and he's gonna he's gonna do comrades in June. And I'm like, you've never run before. And he said no. And I said, and you're gonna do comrades in June. And he goes, Yes. And I said, just good luck. Or the best. All the best. You know, I because it I just don't think it's wise. Because I'm not looking at, you know, mental toughness and tenacity can can override physiological limitations. I've seen people do crazy things because their mind is so strong that they've got the ability, and that can come sometimes come from trauma, experience trauma. A lot of people that have experienced trauma in their lives, they they they tend to be able to cope better with physical pain, and that tends to override those physiological limitations, but they're still gonna do damage. So I always look at in in my mind, it's not about you can't ever do comrades, or you can't do this, or you can't do that, because you haven't given yourself enough time. I'm saying to you, you're gonna damage your body. You've got one body in which to live. Why do you want to put it under significant risk, significant stress, and possibly really hurt yourself just to get to the finish line and get a medal? Or to tell people I've done this or I've done that. Take your time to build up to it. Every single year there are races. Comrades is there every year. Oceans is there every year. There's triathlons that are there every single year. There's mountain bike races, there's road cycling races, gravel races, whatever it is. There's no shortage of starts and finishes in, I think, in most countries in the world. So why rush the process? Why don't you do things properly by looking after your health first and slowly building up and getting ready for it? So when it comes to time to build into, say, a marathon or whatever, I mean, I like this 24-week thing. You know, you're coming off a nice base and you you're already running and you're quite solid. I'll say, like, if you really want to know your goal, then you know, give yourself 24 weeks to build up to it. You know, you can periodise the training nicely, you can build the different blocks, and you can really focus on that goal. But there are a lot of people who wake up at the last minute and say, now I'm just going to do this, I'm going to do that. And I see it happen all the time. And yeah, I'm not interested in getting involved in those kind of stories because for me, health preservation is more important than the metal letter finish line.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Yeah. And I think if you do it properly, you will you will get better times as well.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Well, you know, you speak about that. Like I said, my first marathon was a sub-three hour. Uh I trained for that sub-three hour, but I didn't do it in six months. And I didn't even do it in a year. Uh I I it I took one and a half, it was actually more than one and a half years of complete focus on that particular goal. And I never thought I'd ever get there. Because I thought to myself, it's crazy. But it just shows you that if you do something slowly and properly, you can build towards it. Not everybody's going to hit their exact target or their goal, but if you really, like a sniper, you give it complete focus for that particular bullseye. And you really focus around it. And you might not get it, you might not hit that target at this particular time frame, but you can always then just extend it or you know, push the goalpost out a little bit longer and then aim to hit it.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Yeah, sometimes we do stupid things as humans.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

People look for the quick fix or the rush or whatever it is. Definitely the rush. And I think it's just different personalities thinking about different things. And I'm very different, I'm more I'm very structured. Like I I like a more structured approach. I I don't like this emotional approach to things. Emotion when you start to think emotionally, um that's that's when you start to make the mistakes.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

And that's in anything in life. So all this data that's available to us, these things on our arms that are called garments or suntos or whatever make it is Strava. Are we overcomplicating this data thing with all these numbers and stuff that we see?

SPEAKER_00 25:21

For some people it might be complicated, but I love numbers. I love data. Uh, it's forever changing. You know, even as you as you age, you're gonna see changes in maximum heart rate levels, your threshold heart rates, things are gonna change. And and data for me speaks volumes. I like to monitor things like sleep because in in times where you haven't slept well, it definitely impacts performance. And it's not just physical performance, even cognitive performance. So sleep is important. Nutrition, I'm a numbers guy. I want targets, macronutrient targets. I know that with me, I've got to hit a certain protein target on a daily basis. I need to eat a certain I need to eat a certain amount of fiber on a daily basis from a health perspective. I need to eat a certain amount of percentage of fat in my diet, the kind of fat that I eat, the kind of carbohydrates that I'm eating, and and those numbers speak to me. So I I log that data and I analyze it and I run reports every week and I see am I am I am I in line? But I'm maybe a bit freakish that way, you know. Um obviously, you know, things like rest heart rate I monitor as well. Uh heart rate variability uh is is quite important to me. Uh, I do like to monitor HRV as well. Um, and it and and all these things do correlate to when I'm feeling good with my training, when I'm feeling bad with my training, when I have a good night's sleep, a bad night's sleep, you start to realize that there's a pattern. And if you can control some of these factors, you're actually putting yourself into a much better, a much better place.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

How accurate though is the data coming from a watch that's around your wrist?

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Well, I don't use a wrist as heart rate monitor. I mean, yes, while I'm sleeping for sure. Um, but you do get straps like, for example, Whoop, which are maybe a little bit more accurate at reading and maybe a bit more comfortable to sleep with because they they're light. But if I'm doing any exercise session, whether it's strength or endurance, a chest strap is what I'm wearing because you wear your heart on your chest, not on your sleeve. And so that to me is the most accurate measure of heart rate.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

Have you checked how how much a watch is out compared to the strap?

SPEAKER_00 27:36

You get sparks. Is it? You do definitely, I've seen it. You heat, temperature, sweat, all of these things, you get misreads all the time. Uh, I've I've never really had any instability with a chest heart rate strap.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

So I want to get into a bit of 32GR. Um, this product is to has been around for a while. It's an amazing product, people love it. But the nutrition industry, there's a lot of lies that are getting told to us athletes. And it's going to this game or going to this chemist or whatever, and buy, buy, buy, buy this. This is the new thing, this is the the latest. What's the biggest lie that are that we're being told in the nutrition industry at the moment?

SPEAKER_00 28:20

I I wouldn't say that there's I wouldn't say maybe the biggest lie, but I think that when it comes to sports nutrition, there's what works for one individual is not going to work for another individual. And every single product or brand in the market, you know, a lot of people think that they they differ quite a bit from one to the other. But we most of us follow standard scientific principles. And and that and that will come down to the kind of composition of what the products are. Because, you know, if you're looking at our range, for example, the biggest thing that our focus on is actually digestive comfort and also health. Uh, that's I mean, functionality is important, and everything is designed around a specific purpose from a science perspective. But for me, digestive comfort is so important because we're dealing with endurance athletes and ultra-endurance athletes, and one of the things that set people back is they take on a product and then they land up with stomach issues. And that can be the worst thing to experience during an exercise session. So gut health is is important. And so we try and make the products as easy on the gut as possible. I think when it comes to the sports nutrition industry, one of the biggest misconceptions is that people think, oh, I'm gonna take this product and it's just gonna boost me and get me to the finish line, and I'm gonna have the most amazing event. And this is this, you could say this is one of the biggest lies that gets told to people. You know, take this product, this is gonna work for you, that's gonna work for you. Because of the way it's marketed. Because of how they're marketed. But that's not true, because behind every product there's science, and behind the science, there still needs to be a lot of other things that need to be taken into account. Every single individual is unique. We've all got different digestive systems, different flora that's in our uh intestinal tracts, and so what works for one person is not going to work for another. The other thing that's also quite important is that you can't just get given a product and it's just gonna boost you and take you to the finish line. You need to train on a product, you need to experience the product. It's there's definitely no boosting. There's stability that we're looking for. Um, uh energy conservation, you know, sparing your glycogen stores, um, you know, transporting that glucose to the working muscles when it's when it's needed, and trying to find that that element of stability and balance. And when it comes to sports nutrition, also there's certain volumes that you've got to consume on a regular basis to be able to have that positive impact of it supporting your level of effort uh over a duration. And a lot of people think that it's just so simple. I'm gonna take this, it's gonna help. It doesn't work that way. And then there's other things that need to be taken into account, like uh, you know, obviously the composition, the taste, the texture, all these things need to work for an individual in order for it to work properly, but you do need to train on a particular product in order to be able to see if it works for you, train your gut to be able to also take on a specific volume uh of carbohydrates over a period of time. It's there's just no there's no quick fix like that.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Mark, when you built 32GR, was there a problem you were trying to fix that no one else was addressing?

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Yeah, there was a huge problem. I came back from overseas, I landed up in South Africa. Um go to the shop and I I look at some products on the shelves, which I was cycling actually quite a bit at the time. I remember I entered a cycle challenge, and uh I was looking for uh uh a carbohydrate or energy product at the time, and I was looking at these products, I'm thinking, man, but I don't know if there's any enforcement here, but there's illegal substances in some of these products, and and I was like quite taken back. Uh some of the products contain methylhexanyamine. Um I also found like a lot of uh synthetic additives in a lot of the products, and because I'd had health issues when I was younger, I wasn't prepared to compromise and take something that I just didn't figure was natural enough for my body, you know, because I didn't want to impact my health in any any way. And everyone says, yeah, but you you you're only going to use the product for a short amount of time. It's not true. You know, like I said, you've got to train on a product to see if it works. So you're actually consuming it on a very regular basis. And over many exercise sessions, over many months and years, it all adds up. And it can have a negative impact on your health. And so I just uh I just didn't like what was going on in the market. So I landed up uh uh meeting a guy in the community, and he had a food facility in Breckband of all places, and um we landed up uh developing a a carbohydrate energy drink. And I used to utilize it. It wasn't in the market. I would go to him, he'd make me up the powders, I would use it, use it, use it, until one day I was introduced to a different carbohydrate, which was another carbohydrate, which was uh palatinose or isomaltulose, which was actually low G iron. I found that it it was very good from a stability point of view, but it was it was uh contradictory to the direction of sports science. Sport science is like spike blood sugar all the time, and it's absolutely fine. Well, keep taking in as much carbs as as you can, and and and that will support you, and and that's what the industry was like. And here I am taking a product that doesn't elevate blood sugar, it sort of stabilizes. And we know during exercise you're not going to cause a spike anyway, but it was very different. And so but I love the feeling of it. And we blended it with uh some quick releasing carbs, and it still provided some nice stability, and uh and and and that eventually you know became our base product. It came into the market. Um, and that only came on the basis of people utilizing the product and experiencing the effects of the product. So it's not like I could go to somebody and say this is going to solve your problem. I was like, try the product and just give me feedback and tell me how you feel, what you think. And once they used it, they were like, wow, okay, can you get more and more? Eventually I was driving around with these buckets of powder like a drug addict in the car setting. And um and then and then we decided to launch it. It went against the grains of sports science, uh, but there was a use case for it. And the use case was simple. Not most athletes are not elite athletes, they're not going at this excessive intensity for a period of time where they need a much higher carbohydrate feed. Um, some people are just out there doing social things, weekend warriors, conversational runs, conversational rides, etc. They didn't need to go and consume carbohydrates excessively. And so what we did was we decided to divide the endurance community into, you know, fuel your time and effort. In other words, there's certain carbohydrates that you can utilize for your sort of low-end zone one, zone two, long-duration efforts. Uh, and when you're performing at a much higher level, so a different kind of maybe a quick or high feeding carbohydrate would be better suited to that. And that's how we started to educate the market. And and what I love is actually educating people. I find that if you give somebody knowledge, then they will make, they've got the power to make the right decision for themselves. I will never sell somebody a product, I will sell them the information. Okay, I will give them the information, impart that, and empower them with the knowledge and say, I don't care what you use, you can use our products if you want, but I'm just going to give you the knowledge so that you make the right decision for yourself.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

How do you choose the product though? What do you look for? Because there are so many products that are on the shelf at the moment. International products, local products. The one that's making the big noise is probably what every or the normal everyday guy is going to.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

Look, some brands can make very big noises because they've got billions to make the noise. But what do I look for in a product? And I'm not talking specifically about our products, any product I look at. I mean, there are a lot of supplements I utilize which we don't manufacture in our range. But the first thing I look at is I I like to look at the quality of a product. So what does quality mean for me? I I definitely like to look at the ingredients of a product to see uh what is the source of, for example, just colours and flavors. Is it a synthetic source? Is it a natural source? I always go towards natural sources, 100%. I look at things like non-nutritive sweeteners. Uh are the non-nutritive sweeteners being utilized something that would impact me from a negative perspective? I don't like it. I look at the composition of the product. So if it's an endurance product, I'll definitely look at what is the glucose to fructose ratio in the product and how does that balance out. In other words, is it going to provide the functionality that I need? Um, in some cases, people might need a lower fructose uh uptake because maybe they're fructose insensitive. In some cases, maybe they would, you know, cope very well with a higher fructose intake. But again, it boils down to the unique needs of an individual. Uh, if I'm looking at a protein, for example, what kind of protein is it? Is it a clean protein? Uh, if I'm going to consume the protein, is it protein only or is it protein mixed with a whole lot of sugar and carbohydrates? And if it is, then what is the purpose? You know, does it is it fit for purpose? What am I trying to get out of it? So I think you've got to understand uh a supplement is not there to fix something. A supplement is there to supplement a particular need that you have, which you couldn't normally get from natural food sources. And in sports nutrition, it's all about uh carry uh convenience and the convenience of consumption as well. And then obviously the impact on the body, what kind of impact it's gonna have. And and for me, it needs to tick all those boxes. So there's a lot of brands out there that do follow science. You know, a lot of brands follow the science. We definitely follow the science, and and that's fine. And then the question is, is then what what once they've taken the science, how do they then go and build that product up in order to be able to make it a final product that somebody's going to consume? And one thing I'll say to somebody is that I would never ever ever advocate a product that I wouldn't consume myself because I value the health of individuals more than anything else.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Uh us as athletes, are we overfueling or underfueling?

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Most athletes underfuel completely. I mean, if you look at sports nutrition guidelines, old sports nutrition guidelines, they were talking 30 to 60 grams of carbs an hour. Uh then it was 30 to 60 to 90 grams of carbs per hour. And and and you can split that into sort of like 30 grams would be like very, very low-level, low-intensity training, maybe shorter duration. Uh, 60 grams per hour would be maybe more moderate uptake and I guess a little bit more intensity and maybe slightly longer duration. And then 90 grams is like you're going three hours over, you're racing, you know, taking 90 grams. Today it's 120 grams. I mean, you'll see athletes that compete on the world stage and they're consuming huge amounts. I mean, I've met athletes that are consuming 140, 150 grams of carbohydrates an hour, and that's a massive intake. I never thought personally I'd be able to get there, uh, but in the end of 2022, I raced uh um uh Iron Man Middle Eastern Champs, uh half Iron Man, actually Middle Eastern Champs uh overseas, and I managed to build my carbohydrate intake up to about 120 grams per hour, and it was a game, it was a it was an absolute game changer. I I just suddenly experienced a whole new world of of performance and recovery, which I didn't even know existed. But what is the limiting factor? The limiting factor is gastrointestinal comfort. You practiced it. Yeah, so it took me it took me 10 months to build my gut to tolerate it. And and only one or two specific products that I could utilize in order to be able to achieve it. And so those products had to be very good as far as gastric emptying went, uh, and couldn't cause discomfort, it shouldn't have caused discomfort. And so it they worked very, very well for me. And interesting enough, when I went to that race, we were the official sponsors, nutrition sponsors, and I still had to bring my own nutrition along. Why? Because the product that I was using, which is one of our products, wasn't on course, but I trained my gut for this particular product, and so I had to use this product on course because this is the product that worked for me.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Yeah, so let's just get it right for everyone listening or watching. You can't just go into a race and try and feel and put in 100 grams of carbs or whatever per hour into your body. You gotta train it, you gotta practice. During your practice runs in the week, you've got to be taking that nutrition or those supplements.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Absolutely. I was fueling three times a week for gut training, and I was incrementally building up every week or two, I would I would build up by five or ten grams on an hourly basis. And sometimes I would hit a problem, I'd have to backtrack and then I'd have to build up again. And I also had to work out the timing of the intake to make sure that the timing was right as well to get to that volume. So you've got to train the gut, there's absolutely no doubt. And once you have trained the gut, you'll realize what a huge benefit it is. I used to finish training sessions before that. I used to finish training sessions where I was ravenous. I was like hungry. I would like did a long session, I want to eat. After these training sessions, I'd finished strong and I didn't have to eat. I was feeling so stable. I could stretch, I could shower, I could take my time to eat my recovery meal. There was no rush because I had fueled amazingly well during that session.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

So I want to get on to the magic word that's going around all these performance circles lately called peptides. There it comes. Um what is a peptide? Let's start there.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

A string of amino acids that are put together, and uh yeah, it uh they produce some signaling in the body, and um and look, they they're they've been around for decades to be quite honest. They have been around for decades. Um I think peptides are definitely going to change the future of medicine as we know it. I think there's a lot of um there's definitely a lot of uh clamping down that needs to be done as well because the quality and the chain of uh peptides needs to be managed very, very well. I mean just a couple of weeks ago I saw a guy in the gym walking around with a peptide pen and he was selling this thing, and I was like, Why are you walking around with this peptide pen? It should be refrigerated. You know, you've got to maintain cold chain for that. Particular peptide. And he was like, No, it's fine. And I'm saying, No, it's actually not fine. It is absolutely not fine. Because whoever you're going to give this to, you don't know what the impact's going to be on them because the compound in there is breaking down under this temperature. And so, you know, this is a big problem. I think that there's a definite major benefit to certain peptides out there. Uh but you know, I had a guy contact me a couple of weeks ago asking if I knew somebody who could source a sleep, a particular sleep peptide, uh, which is very well known. And I said to the guy, the peptide is going to fix the symptom. But what is the cause? And I asked I asked the age, sort of lifestyle, and I sent this guy to have bloods done because I said, It sounds to me like you've actually got hormone imbalance, possibly very low testosterone levels, and that could very, very well be impacting your sleep negatively. And if you fix that, then you don't need the peptide to fix your sleep. Rather fix the cause and not the symptom. And lo and behold, very low testosterone levels onto testosterone replacement therapy, game changer. Felt the difference within two weeks. So, so I think there's a lot of things out there that can help people. I think the biggest thing we're seeing in peptides is definitely the weight loss peptides. So we're looking at the GLP1s, GRPs, and now obviously uh with uh Eli Liddy going through phase four clinical trials with red atrutite, uh, you're looking at glucagon agonists as well. And I think that um these have definitely got a major benefit for people that struggle with weight loss, but you have to respect the peptide because it's a tool which is going to aid you, and you need to learn proper nutritional strategies around utilizing a tool like that, which will allow you to cope and learn how to properly eat so that when you do wean off that peptide, you don't just explode and bounce back and gain more weight than you know lost in the phone. And which is what's happening to people at the moment. Yeah. So look, I'm I'm not a fan of a Zempic at all because I've seen too much muscle muscle mass loss with a Zempic, and I've seen it with people that I've worked with as well. Tazepatite, which is Mondjaro Wagovi, a bit different because obviously it it helps also with insulin sensitivity as well as slowing down gastric emptying. So, you know, that's the GLP1 and GRP effects. And I think that there is a benefit to that. But I've also seen a lot of people that have used Retta, even though it's a gray market, but it seems to be very prevalent. I think you, though, really need to understand where you're sourcing it from and make sure that it is really above board because I've heard there are fake things on the market. There's a lot of rubbish out there, and you don't want to impact your health negatively. So it's all very well that somebody's selling you a pen for whatever thousands, but you've got to make sure that that's above board. And I have seen some labs where they actually have given you proper certificates of analysis with impurity testing, etc. Um, I know some of them personally, and and I've seen that those uh labs are are very much above board, but there are very little controls in place at the moment, and I think that it's like a free-for-all, and you've got to be very careful.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

Do you think the space is already far ahead far ahead for regulation?

SPEAKER_00 48:08

There has to be some form of regulation. Um pure to stop all the nonsense there because that can impact people's health. Um, but at the same time, sometimes when things are over-regulated and we see the costs going up excessively, uh the person who really needs it the most can't afford it. And that's something that really does bug me. Because healthcare can be very, very expensive. We know it can be expensive. I've I mean, I've seen the benefits of people utilizing peptides for you know for weight loss at very inexpensive. I mean, what they were doing previously. I know people who have been for gastric bypass, and the peptides weren't available to them at the time that they went for gastric bypass after very expensive gastric bypass putting on the weight again, and then I've seen how the peptides actually came in and you know shredded that weight, changed the person into a very, very happy space, all of a sudden very happy.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Mentally.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Mentally, you know, uh I guess body conscious-wise, it makes a huge difference. But not only that, from a health perspective, you're talking about reduction of cardiovascular risk. Uh, you know, some of the peptides uh obviously also they improve lipid profile, lower cholesterol, and so that's a huge benefit from a health perspective, which previously was very, very difficult for them to manage.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

Where do you draw the line though between optimization and enhancement?

SPEAKER_00 49:42

You know what I say to people, and I do this all the time. What is the goal? What do you what are you trying to achieve? I know people that are stacking six, seven, eight, nine peptides on one on top. I'm like, like what? Uh you know, just as an example, like uh there was somebody taking uh uh CJC epimeralin and testameralin, and I'm like, you do realize that two of those peptides actually conflict on the exact same pathway.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

That was where I was going. That was my next question.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

So like why would you do that? You you clearly don't understand the pathway that it's utilizing, and you're just stacking. So you you're looking at create that creates risk. That's crazy. So I think that first of all, you need to work with a medical professional if you are going to do something, or somebody that really understands the science behind it, and not just jump in and start to stack everything. So, you know, just like I mentioned on the you know, it's a DSIP, this the sleep peptide. I mean, why don't you try and solve the cause, the root cause? Uh when it comes to um testameredin, for example, is an FDA-approved peptide, just as a uh it's been FDA-approved uh for so eight HIV pay patients. It was to prevent uh sort of muscle wastage and to maintain lean muscle mass. And then it's also been shown to uh obliterate visceral fat after a period of time. So that that is an FDA-approved peptide. Uh again, the peptide has been clinically trialed and researched for those two particular areas, and something like that that you know that has been utilized in clinical trials, human clinical trials, that does work and have a s has a specific function might be something that would be maybe a better option than just taking something that hasn't been tested or clinically trialed in another area.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

How long do peptides stay in your body for? You you talk about go fix this and they go go and find out the root of the problem.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

They they last they last they can last days.

SPEAKER_01 51:52

I mean So the lifespan is not long.

SPEAKER_00 51:55

No. I mean it's you know, if you're talking about uh if you're looking at peptides like we we're looking at the GLP or GLP1s, I mean they're they're injecting on once a week. So you're talking about five, six days and they're already exiting the system.

SPEAKER_01 52:08

So you've got to find that root of the problem, otherwise it's never gonna be fixed.

SPEAKER_00 52:11

Yeah, so you you can't I I unfortunately I've come across people that have been sitting on like GLP1 GRPs for 24 months. And yes, the weight loss was very good in the beginning, and they did lose a lot of weight. Another thing I say to people is if they go onto a peptide like that, if you don't do strength work three times a week, it's dangerous. You've got to do strength work. You cannot afford to lose muscle mass. Muscle is if you want to live to 100 like a 20-year-old, you need to preserve muscle with every single ounce of energy you possibly can. When you take a peptide and you're losing weight, you're not just losing fat weight. You can lose muscle weight. Lose muscle weight, you can shorten your life. And the reason being is that muscle really does help protect our skeletal frame. It is the source of mobility, of being able to do work, of being able to move, of being able to be mobile all the time. And you can't afford to lose it. And a lot of the time I've seen athletes that have taken peptides for weight loss. One thing that I've noticed is very common amongst them if they don't do the strength work: severe injury. I start to see severe injury. I start to see knee knee issues, hip issues, back issues, you name it. Lose muscle, more stress on the joints, you're gonna damage the joints.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

So peptides in sport, at what point does the sport stop being a sport?

SPEAKER_00 53:45

Well, first of all, some peptides are banned in sport.

SPEAKER_01 53:49

Oh, aren't they all? I thought peptides in general were banned.

SPEAKER_00 53:53

Yeah, so I mean, obviously, you get your experimental peptides. Uh, some peptides are uh are obviously FDA approved. I haven't gone and verified every single peptide against you know waiter regulations. I've I've definitely gone and checked the the most regular ones. Um of those peptides can't even be tested for uh at this moment in time. In the future, definitely they will be able to. Uh testing is always playing catch-up. Uh, for example, at one stage there wasn't a test for TB500. We work with some labs. Now they can test for TB500. Um the tests for peptides are very, very expensive as well. Uh, to be blood testing generally. I think it's uh it's harder to pick up in in urine, depending again what the peptide is. But blood testing, uh, and then again, it's very specialized machinery, very expensive. So obviously, for elite athletes or professional athletes, it's gonna become probably a danger. A danger, without a doubt. Um for the normal athlete that's just running and trying to stay healthy. I mean, you have a look at comrades' marathon runners, do they look healthy to you? The the the bulk of the finish is between 10 and 12 hours. Most physi from a you know, just from a visual perspective, are not the healthiest looking. And I'm not saying this in an insulting way, but these are people that can definitely benefit from, you know, I guess specific use cases, especially if they're overweight and running an ultra. And if you're overweight and running an ultra, you really, first of all, I mean, the foundation has to be there. Start with your nutrition and focus on it. Because that's really the key to everything is actually eating healthily. But some people unfortunately have huge food noise and they really battle with eating. And even if they do try and eat healthy, sometimes you can overeat health. And so they really, really battle. And sometimes these tools, and I'll call them tools, can come in and shut off a little bit of that food noise and give somebody a little bit better focus on being able to really structure the eating properly around their day-to-day lives. And that's where I've seen a difference. I mean, I I've had, I mean, there's one particular athlete that I've worked with for many years, and he really does eat healthily. I mean, it's unbelievable healthily he eats. And there's just nothing. But but it's always been a roller coaster ride. And then a peptide supporting his healthy eating habits, and Sunday it was a game changer. Absolute game changer.

SPEAKER_01 56:45

Yeah, so it's how you use these tools. Are they becoming the new steroids though?

SPEAKER_00 56:51

Uh they don't they're definitely not steroids. Okay. So people mustn't mistake it.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

It's not a steroid.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

It's definitely not a steroid, without a doubt. I mean, that's that's a completely different uh ball game. Uh peptides are basically, in a way, optimizing, enhancing a specific functionality within the body. Okay, so that's all it is. And and and and that's what it's and that's what it's really doing. You know, if you're looking at uh if you're looking at at the function of a peptide, that's that's basically what it's doing. I mean, there's a lot more technical stuff that goes on in the in the background, but it's taking what's there and leveling up, basically. And I'll tell you something that you know, I've seen side positive side benefits to taking a peptide. For example, like you know, looking at a zepatite or retta. Some people with irritable bowel syndrome, like Crohn's disease or proctitis, or you know, uh diverticulitis, etc. I've seen in those cases post-utilizing the peptide, their gut health being restored. And there's no clinical trials on that whatsoever. But it's very interesting because of the gastric emptying being slowed down and the food sitting there and fermenting for a lot longer, that the gut flora was able to feed for a lot longer and possibly strengthen the microbiome in the intestinal tracts. And a lot of people have reported very positive effects. So there's something that is not anything to do with the use of the peptide at all.

SPEAKER_02 58:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:42

And I always said to somebody, uh well, I say I've said it to a few people who who actually work in in the medical environment, it would be amazing if pharma companies would take these peptides and actually clinically research these kinds of different angles. But they won't do it because you can't patent a peptide. And it costs hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars to do massive clinical research trials. And they know that because they can't patent it, once it's done, it's a free-for-all. And so it doesn't justify them to do it.

SPEAKER_01 59:20

Is pharma the reason these peptides aren't going to actually go anywhere?

SPEAKER_00 59:24

I think the peptides are gonna go there whether they like it or not, and I think they realize it. Um, I mean, already in the US we've seen how certain peptides have been approved for uh certain usage, and we're also seeing how the prices of the GLP ones and GRPs have come down significantly because people couldn't afford them, and now all of a sudden they're very affordable. So I think that they are gonna come to the forefront. And I think pharma companies will just probably produce it under their own brands, even though it's not something that's patented, and and and sell it because it's it's gonna become a basket of offering, you know, it it will be. I hope that there is more research into peptide usage. I mean, if you take some of these peptides, they've been around since the 80s. It's decades. They've just been they've never really been brought into sort of human clinical trial and and and usage for particular or potential benefits.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

Before we close up, I just want to touch on something. TRT, testosterone replacement therapy. Also a buzzword going around, especially now in my circles, being at the age of 43, which is very young. Um you know, they say the older men give us your take on TRT. Some say it's steroids, stay away from it, don't do it, don't do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:54

So this is my take. Firstly, I'm not talking from a professional athlete point of view because it's completely banned. Yeah, a normal, everyday person. Let's talk about health, health, and health and aging. Uh if you're young, okay, let me go back even a further step. Why would you need testosterone replacement therapy? There's only one reason. You've got suppressed or low hormone levels. So, what is step number one? You run blood, you test a hormone panel, you test free total testosterone, sex hormone, binding globulin, you test these hormones and you make sure that everything is normal. If your hormones are normal, then you definitely don't need any kind of testosterone replacement therapy. You're a normal human being and your body's functioning optimally, perfect. Okay, now let's talk about suboptimal. So you do go run blood and your hormone levels are low. Is it desirable to have low hormone levels? The answer to that is no, because if they are very low, they are going to impact your quality of life. They can impact your sleep, they can impact libido, they can impact motivation, they can impact cardiovascular function. You can see if your testosterone levels are very low, it can increase lipid profiles, it can raise cholesterol levels. Okay, so that can cause health issues. The question is is testosterone replacement therapy necessary or are there milder forms of treatment that you can look at before you even move in that direction? So, can I bring them up naturally? Well, yes, you can try and bring them up naturally. How do you bring up naturally? You need to look at dietary changes, you need to look at exercise, you know, um, things like strength work are very important. Endurance exercise actually is catabolic. It elevates cortisol for many hours of time, it actually lowers hormone levels. So it can lower testosterone. So people that do excessive volume training can impact their testosterone levels. I'm talking males can impact their testosterone levels uh negatively. So these there's a whole lot of things to look at because the last result would be TRT, to be quite honest. And that would be dependent on the age of an individual, the quality of the life of the individual, also the health of an individual. And then over and above that, never do anything without a physician's input. You know, because the physician, a physician that understands the endocrine system and how all these things work is the kind of person that's going to be your best guide and best advisor to be able to deal with this. So when people come to me, first thing I'll do is I'll I'll run the bloods with a physician. I'll send them to a physician, run the bloods, we check what the markers are, and then the physician will decide what the options are moving forwards. And the other thing is if sometimes they'll put you onto DHEA, for example, before they put you onto testosterone, because that is a precursor to testosterone production, and that can help elevate. But for some people, maybe DHEA just climbs and you know, testosterone is not climbing. And at that stage, they might say, okay, we've tried everything, supplements, food, exercise, whatever, it's been long enough, and we're not seeing, we're not seeing stability, and we're not seeing an increase in the hormone panel. So at that stage, they might decide, okay, let's look at a bit of intervention and start off with some testosterone replacement therapy. And there's many ways to do that. It could be a compound cream, which you rub into the skin, which can be absorbed. It could be obviously uh intramuscular injection. Um, it really depends on the individual. Um, you get some that are long-acting, some that are short-acting. Uh, but what you're aiming for is actually not to increase it significantly, but to increase it to a healthy level, which is stable over a period of time. And I think it's very important to stress that it's not going to, you know, because a lot of people say, oh, you're taking testosterone, it's going to, you know, that's why you've got big muscles or you're growing, whatever. For people that are on testosterone replacement therapy, that it's normalizing or optimizing, you know, their levels, they're still within the range. They're not excessively in the range. If you go excessive, and I've seen, I've seen bloods where I've seen in the thousands, I've seen levels, and that's crazy. And you think to yourself, that's like madness. Why would you be there? You don't have to be in the thousands. The testosterone's got a range of like, let's say, between 10 and 30 if you're sitting there. And and that's okay. And if there's enough, you know, floating testosterone that can be utilized, then that's also okay. But to be in the thousands is ridiculous. And and so my answer to this is always run blood first, work with the physician, make sure that you do the least amount in order to be able to achieve the most, first of all, to stabilize. But once people get into their 50s or whatever, or they're getting a lot older and their testosterone levels are not coming up and they're doing the right things and they're definitely not coming, then I would say intervention is necessary because you don't want to cause cardiovascular risk as you age. You also don't want to lose muscle mass as you age, you want to try and maintain it, you want to try and maintain all these things. And so then it becomes, and I'm saying this, from a health perspective, it becomes a necessity.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:42

Mark, thank you for your time. We will have you again because time just goes by so quickly, and there's so much we can chat about when it comes to this. But thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:50

Uh Jacques, thanks very much. It's a pleasure as always chatting to you. And uh yeah, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:55

Next time we can lay out some pens here and talk about peptides. Maybe they improve.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:01

Yeah, it's a it's an interesting topic. But um, again, it's I think it's in its infant stage. Um, and I I think that it's uh it's gonna be interesting to see how the future pans out. Mark, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:14

We're at