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SELF | Deep Dives
Why Dexterity Trumps Strength, Speed, and Endurance in Almost Every Situation | Ep. 01
We explore Nikolai Bernstein's groundbreaking work on dexterity, revealing how it represents far more than physical coordination—it's a form of motor intelligence that trumps strength, speed, and endurance in solving movement challenges.
• Bernstein frames dexterity as "a currency for which all other currencies are readily traded" and "a trump suit that beats all other cards"
• Dexterity differs from pure physical attributes like strength, speed, and endurance by being primarily a function of control
• A Chinese-Tibetan fable about a monkey outsmarting larger animals illustrates how cleverness beats brute force, speed, and endurance
• Real-world examples show dexterity's superiority: a goldsmith's apprentice cutting a coin that a strong wrestler couldn't, and a fencer deflecting raindrops with a sword
• Bernstein defines dexterity as "a quick and successful solution to a complex motor problem" that emerges when facing unexpected complications
• The concept of "motor wits" connects physical skill with intellectual engagement, explaining why dexterity often improves with age unlike other abilities
• Dexterity ranges from "cold" (walking on a sidewalk) to "hot" (walking with hot coffee through traffic) depending on the complexity of the motor challenge
Check out Bernstein's book "Dexterity and Its Development" to dive deeper into this fascinating topic that changes our entire understanding of human movement and skill.
Welcome to the Deep Dive, your shortcut to understanding, well, pretty much anything we find interesting. We like to think we cut through all the noise so you can get right to the good stuff. Today we are going to be diving into the world of dexterity.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, dexterity.
Speaker 1:So leading our Deep Dive today is the work of Nikolai A Bernstein and his well, very dense book Dexterity and Its Development.
Speaker 2:That's a good word for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now, when we think about dexterity, we think about, you know, quick hands or fancy footwork, right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But Bernstein, he kind of shifts our perspective. He shows us it's not just, you know, physical skill.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:He's talking about this almost like a motor intelligence, a way that we cleverly solve movement challenges, and it makes you think about dexterity in a whole different way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's something we often take for granted, right, like we just assume some people are good at things with their hands and that's just how it is. But Bernstein provides this framework for really understanding it, and what's fascinating to me is how he draws on such a diverse range of examples, like he uses ancient fables oh yeah, alongside, like wartime observations to really bring these concepts to life. It's a wild ride.
Speaker 1:So our mission, if you choose to accept it, is to unpack Bernstein's initial thoughts on what dexterity really is, why it's so compelling and how we can even begin to kind of wrap our heads around it scientifically.
Speaker 2:Right, because it's a tough one to define, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. Okay. So to kick things off, Bernstein starts by giving us his perspective on science itself, and I thought this was really interesting.
Speaker 2:He's got a strong opinion on how science should be done. Oh, yeah, yeah, and he lays it out right up front yeah. So he uses this really powerful analogy and he describes science as a persistent, victorious offense against well, the unknown.
Speaker 1:Right, it's like this constant battle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it kind of reframes how we think about the process. Right, it's not just about, you know, a collection of facts that we figured out, it's this active, ongoing struggle to understand more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I like how he takes that analogy even further and compares the actual progress of science, like actual scientific discoveries, to battles.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, he loves that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which I thought was such a vivid way to think about it it is. He talks about the kind of slow and steady advancements like the, you know, just the methodical progress of an army.
Speaker 2:Right Inching forward, gaining ground bit by bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:But then you've also got these moments of like these brave assaults. He calls them clever breakthroughs.
Speaker 1:Right Any names like Lobachevsky, Pasteur, Mendeleev, Einstein.
Speaker 2:The big names, the geniuses.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:These are the moments that, like, suddenly overcome years, maybe even decades of resistance and it completely changes the landscape.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And within this whole battlefield analogy, this is where he positions, his work on dexterity. This is where it gets really interesting, because he describes his essays as like a reconnaissance assignment, a short sally deep into the enemy's rear, because he points out that there is very little.
Speaker 1:Like actual scientific research on this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, surprisingly little, that had been firmly established you know, especially for something that seems so fundamental to to being human.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So he saw his work, as you know, not presenting these definitive answers, he wasn't trying to solve everything about dexterity in one go, but it was like this vital first step. He was mapping the terrain, solve everything about dexterity in one go Right, but it was like this vital first step. He was mapping the terrain.
Speaker 1:Right Gathering information.
Speaker 2:Exactly To prepare for a larger offensive, and it really emphasizes how much he saw this as unexplored territory.
Speaker 1:It was about gathering that vital information so the main body of science could prepare for that major offensive.
Speaker 2:He was laying the groundwork.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I thought that was really fascinating and kind of surprising in a way, when you consider you know dexterity is so important to life.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean everything we do almost involves some level of dexterity.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, so Bernstein moves on then to comparing dexterity with these other psychophysical capacities.
Speaker 2:Right Other aspects of our physical and mental abilities.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and these are things that we talk about a lot right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and these are the ones he specifically mentions Force, speed, endurance.
Speaker 1:Right, the classic sort of physical attributes. Exactly, and then of course dexterity. So he really digs into how dexterity is different from these other capacities and he makes a pretty clear distinction, right yeah, I mean, he starts with force, which he says is almost purely physical right, like how strong your muscles are yeah, it depends on, like, muscle size, muscle quality, that kind of thing. Right, then you've got speed which is a little more complex it's more complex and involves not only our physical makeup, but also our mental processing Right.
Speaker 2:Right, how fast our nerves fire, how quickly we can react.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then endurance. Endurance is even more intricate.
Speaker 2:I mean it requires cooperation of all sorts of bodily systems right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, your lungs, your heart.
Speaker 2:Exactly your metabolism.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:All working together. Okay, so then he comes to dexterity and he's like this is something else altogether.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He even questions whether it's primarily physical or mental. He really highlights that it's this function of control.
Speaker 1:And this is where the central nervous system comes into play. Right, exactly Right. It's not just about brute strength or raw speed.
Speaker 2:It's about how we use those things, how we control our movements. Brute strength or raw speed, it's about how we use those things, how we control our movements. And so, having kind of laid out those distinctions, bernstein comes out and says dexterity is a kind of currency for which all other currencies are readily traded.
Speaker 1:Right, that's a, that's a big statement. It's a bold point, like a declaration it is a Trump suit that beats all other cards.
Speaker 2:Right, he's saying that dexterity is the most valuable, the most adaptable skill you can have. Yeah, and he's not messing around here. No, he's really driving this point home and I think the key insight there is that dexterity isn't just another skill. Right, it's the thing that lets you use all your other skills effectively. Right, you think about it. Strength without control can be clumsy and dangerous.
Speaker 1:Right yeah.
Speaker 2:Speed without precision. You're just going to be running into things. Right and even great endurance. I mean, you need to know where you're going.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah.
Speaker 2:So Bernstein is basically saying that dexterity is the master skill.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the conductor of the orchestra.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it leverages and enhances all these other abilities.
Speaker 1:Okay, so to really illustrate this point, Bernstein starts with a pretty cool example.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, he tells this great story, this fable.
Speaker 1:Right this Chinese Tibetan fable.
Speaker 2:I love this fable. It's so simple, but it gets the point across so well.
Speaker 1:Tell us about the monkey, the elephant, the camel and the yellow-eyed bunny.
Speaker 2:OK, so in this fable you have these three large animals Right the elephant strong, the bunny fast. The camel can go forever.
Speaker 1:Right, the classic attributes Exactly Right and they're all trying to outdo the monkey. Right, and the monkey is what clever.
Speaker 2:The monkey's the dexterous one.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right and they're all trying to impress this black chieftain Right.
Speaker 1:Who sets?
Speaker 2:chieftain who sets them these challenges? The first one is to reach this magic spring, but it's blocked by all these obstacles and, of course, the elephant. What does he do?
Speaker 1:Tries to smash his way through.
Speaker 2:Smashes his way through rocks and thorny bushes just brute force.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So what does the monkey do? The monkey, she doesn't even try to compete on those terms.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:She's like I'm not going to try and out-muscle the elephant. She uses her agility, she jumps, she swings, she slips through the obstacles and she gets to the spring quickly and back without spilling a drop. Nice, the black chieftain, is so impressed. He marks the first victory with this symbol, yai, and it really highlights how dexterity, that agility and cleverness can win even against overwhelming strength.
Speaker 1:That's pretty cool. Okay, so challenge number two. This one involves the yellow eyed bunny.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, the bunny.
Speaker 1:It's about gathering rocks.
Speaker 2:Gathering rocks from the mountain of miracles.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Now the bunny, confident in his speed, what does he do?
Speaker 1:Just takes off running.
Speaker 2:Just takes off running, yeah.
Speaker 1:Around the whole mountain, around the whole mountain.
Speaker 2:Just going to outrun everybody.
Speaker 1:OK, so the monkey.
Speaker 2:The monkey's got a different strategy.
Speaker 1:She doesn't try to race him.
Speaker 2:No way she climbs.
Speaker 1:Straight up.
Speaker 2:Straight up this golden slope that everybody thinks is unclimbable.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:She uses her claws, her tail incredible skill gets the rocks from all four sides, slides back down the bunny's not even halfway around the mountain. Oh wow, it's another victory for the monkey, and this time it's marked with the symbol row.
Speaker 1:Okay, so two for two.
Speaker 2:Two for two.
Speaker 1:What about the camel?
Speaker 2:Okay, so the camel is all about endurance.
Speaker 1:Right, he's ready for a long one.
Speaker 2:Long, hard journey. The black chieftain says go to the desert, find the magic flower. Okay, the camel's like, no problem, I'm built for this, right, but the monkey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's not going to try and outlast the camel.
Speaker 2:No way. She uses her ingenuity Right. She builds this trap, this loop made of dry grass and branches.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Uses it to launch herself across vast distances like a catapult. Oh wow, Gets to the oasis, finds the flower, no problem, and on the way back she enlists these ghosts of the desert.
Speaker 1:Okay, so now we're getting fantastical.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a fable.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But it really emphasizes this almost magical quality of her dexterity.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:She gets whisked back to the Black Chieftain, leaving the camel in the dust.
Speaker 1:Literally in the dust.
Speaker 2:Literally Final victory symbol.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And a pardon from the Black Chieftain.
Speaker 1:So the monkey wins.
Speaker 2:The monkey wins.
Speaker 1:Three challenges, three very different attributes.
Speaker 2:And every time dexterity wins out.
Speaker 1:And it's not just about being quicker or faster or stronger, it's that cleverness, right.
Speaker 2:Oh, exactly that adaptability. It's about using your skills to overcome obstacles in a creative way.
Speaker 1:Right and the Black Chieftain being surprised every time. That's really telling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like even he didn't expect dexterity to be so effective.
Speaker 1:Right, right, Okay. So after this kind of theoretical comparison with the fable, Bernstein brings in some real world examples.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, he loves his anecdote.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and these are really cool.
Speaker 2:They are.
Speaker 1:So tell me about the story of the wrestler Mikhrichev. Mikhrichev and the goldsmith's apprentice Manka Okay Mikhritchev.
Speaker 2:And the goldsmith's apprentice, manka. Okay, so Mikhritchev was this famous wrestler, like strong man you know, could bend iron bars, break coins with his bare hands. Just absurd strength, right. But there was this one thing he couldn't do. Yeah, to his embarrassment, he couldn't cut a coin With scissors, with these little tiny goldsmith scissors.
Speaker 1:Right and Monka.
Speaker 2:Monka, the apprentice who was, you know, not a big strong guy picks up the scissors, snip, snip, right for the coin.
Speaker 1:Like it was nothing.
Speaker 2:Like it was nothing, and it really shows that you don't always need brute strength.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Sometimes that fine motor control, that skill, that dexterity can do things that force just can't. And motor control that skill, that dexterity can do things that force just can't.
Speaker 1:And it's like a classic Dave and Goliath story.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, right, Bernstein even makes that connection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Skill over might.
Speaker 1:It's a theme that comes up again and again. Right Okay, and he shares another story about a father testing his three sons. Oh yeah, this is a good one. Yeah, what happened there? Three sons.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, this is a good one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what happened there?
Speaker 2:So the father has three sons. Right One's a barber.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:One's a blacksmith and one's a fencer.
Speaker 1:Okay, so three different skills.
Speaker 2:Three very different skills, okay, and he challenges them to demonstrate their skills. Right, so the barber shaves a running hair. Wow, right, that's impressive. Yeah, the blacksmith replaces all the horseshoes on a moving carriage without it stopping.
Speaker 1:That's pretty slick.
Speaker 2:Right. The father is impressed with both of these Right, but then it starts to rain.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:The barber and the blacksmith they run for cover.
Speaker 1:Right Makes sense.
Speaker 2:But the fencer. He stays out in the downpour.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And he uses his sword with such precision that he deflects every raindrop.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:Stays completely dry.
Speaker 1:That's incredible.
Speaker 2:The father can't choose which son is the best.
Speaker 1:They're all so good.
Speaker 2:He divides his estate equally, and I think this one shows how diverse dexterity can be.
Speaker 1:Right, it's not just about speed, it's also that precision.
Speaker 2:Exactly, it's control, it's mastery Right Okay?
Speaker 1:And Bernstein also throws in a couple of wartime examples.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, he loves these. They're so vivid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, tell us about the circus rider and the soldier with the grenade.
Speaker 2:Okay, so the circus rider. He's in the Great Patriotic War, he's surrounded by enemies, oh, and he fakes his death, oh, oh wow. His horse get this plays along. Oh come on. The Germans think he's dead. Ignore him, he gathers. Intelligence returns unharmed.
Speaker 1:That's amazing.
Speaker 2:Right, and Bernstein emphasizes it was his motor skill and quick wits, his dexterity that saved him Right. Then there's the soldier who's trapped in this house, surrounded by Nazis. He throws a grenade at their machine gun, jumps out the attic window, does a somersault, lands on the German soldier, disarms him, uses the machine gun to hold off the others until help arrives.
Speaker 1:That's. That's so crazy. It's like something out of an action movie.
Speaker 2:It is, and again Bernstein's like. Look, it was his athletic abilities and wits, his dexterity, that made the difference Right. So it's not just about being good at sports. It.
Speaker 1:Right. So these real life accounts. They really show you how dexterity is not just like a nice to have. It can be crucial in really high stakes situations.
Speaker 2:Absolutely life saving.
Speaker 1:So, based on all these examples, all these stories, bernstein starts to lay out the features and really the value of dexterity.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:What are some of the points he makes?
Speaker 2:Well, he talks about its universality and versatility.
Speaker 1:Right, he actually says that a dexterous person does not burn in fire and does not drown in water. Yeah, which is a pretty bold statement. Yeah, but I think what?
Speaker 2:he's saying is that they can handle any situation Right, that they're adaptable, they can thrive in any environment.
Speaker 1:Right, and he emphasizes its accessibility, how it can give someone of average build a chance to outperform someone who is, you know, bigger or stronger.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he uses the example of this pole vaulter, ng Ozilin, who wasn't particularly strong or tall Right, but he excelled through his technique, his dexterity. And Bernstein uses this proverb a golden speck is small but valuable.
Speaker 1:I like that.
Speaker 2:It's about making the most of what you have and, unlike those physical gifts you know, like height, dexterity is something you can develop.
Speaker 1:Right, it's not just something you're born with.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:And he makes a really fascinating connection between dexterity and intellect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he doesn't see them as separate things.
Speaker 1:Right. So what's the core of why he sees dexterity as so fundamentally different?
Speaker 2:Well, he argues that it's not just a physical skill, it's got an intellectual component. He talks about the wisdom and dexterity, this accumulated experience of movement. You know how we learn to move better over time and that's why it often improves with age.
Speaker 1:Right, unlike some of those other abilities.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and it lasts longer, right, and that's why it often improves with age, right, unlike some of those other ability. Exactly, and it lasts longer. Interesting, he also points out that dexterity is uniquely individual. Okay, it's a reflection of the person.
Speaker 1:So everyone's dexterity is a little bit different.
Speaker 2:Exactly Right, and that's why we don't have a real good way to measure it Right? Yeah, I mean you can measure strength in kilograms, but how do you measure pure dexterity? It's this individual way of solving problems with movement okay.
Speaker 1:So it's more than just you know how fast you can move your hands or how high you can jump yeah, it's about the way you use those abilities and he also says it can be a foundation for innovation oh yeah, he talks about how motor dexterity can evolve into motor wits and then into mental inventiveness. Interesting, so it's almost like dexterity can evolve into motor wits and then into mental inventiveness Interesting. So it's almost like dexterity is a starting point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like this base level of skill that can then lead to higher level thinking.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And he uses the example of Uslan, the pole vaulter again.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Who achieved his success not just through practice, but through analyzing the mechanics of movement.
Speaker 1:Right, really thinking about how his body was moving.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's that intellectual engagement with movement that elevates it to something more.
Speaker 1:Right. So after all these examples, bernstein finally gets to the big question what is dexterity? He looks at the etymology, he looks at existing definitions.
Speaker 2:Right, he tries to pin it down.
Speaker 1:Right and he starts with Eabrasion, who observed that the Russian word for dexterity love-cust comes from the root love meaning catch Right, which originally had to do with hunting and trapping Right, being able to quickly grab something, yeah, which I think speaks to that kind of quickness and skill. Right, Right. And then he mentions Dahl's definition from his thesaurus harmonious in movements. What did Bernstein think about that?
Speaker 2:Well, he respectfully disagreed. He said you know, coordination is important, but harmony is too broad.
Speaker 1:Right Could apply to lots of things.
Speaker 2:Exactly. I mean a sprinter has harmony in their movements, A long distance swimmer.
Speaker 1:But we don't necessarily think of them as being particularly dexterous.
Speaker 2:Right and harmony is kind of subjective, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what one person finds harmonious, another person might not.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. Bernstein wanted something more concrete.
Speaker 1:Right. So how does he go about defining dexterity?
Speaker 2:Well, he says that it's not something to be discovered like a physical organ.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It's something to be built through definition, and he lays out these three requirements for a good definition. It should align with how people normally use the word. It should let us clearly identify dexterity from other abilities.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And it should actually be useful for scientific theory.
Speaker 1:Right, so it can't just be some vague idea. Exactly so, based on all the examples he's given, the fables, the real life stories, what preliminary definition does he propose?
Speaker 2:He says dexterity is a quick and successful solution to a complex motor problem.
Speaker 1:So it's about solving problems with movement.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And not just any problems, but complex ones. Right, and he says that the need for dexterity comes from these unexpected complications and these rapid successions of different motor tasks yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's not about doing the same thing over and over again. It's about having to adapt to new and changing situations and he uses the example of skiing yeah, he contrasts slalom skiing, where you're constantly having to adjust to the gates and the turns, with cross-country skiing, where it's more about endurance right, and he also talks about cross-country skiing on complex it's more about endurance, right, and he also talks about cross-country skiing on complex terrain.
Speaker 1:Where you're having to dodge obstacles. Yeah Right.
Speaker 2:So it's the same basic activity, but the demands on your dexterity are completely different.
Speaker 1:And this also explains why sprinters and long-distance swimmers, even though they're incredible athletes, don't necessarily need dexterity in the same way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, their tasks are very repetitive.
Speaker 1:Right, they don't have to adapt as much.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:And I love the hot and cold game analogy that Bernstein uses.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker 1:It really clarifies things.
Speaker 2:It does.
Speaker 1:Can you remind us of that?
Speaker 2:Sure. So he uses everyday activities like walking and running. Okay, he says that walking on a sidewalk is cold in terms of dexterity.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It's not that demanding, but walking with a cup of hot coffee or across heavy traffic that becomes warmer, or even hot, because you have to be more careful. Exactly. You have to adjust your movements to the situation.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right and similarly. Running on a track is cold, but running across a swamp or under enemy fire is hot.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because those environments demand these constant adjustments, these quick solutions.
Speaker 1:Right, and he ties all of this back to the Russian language, which I thought was really interesting.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, he points out that when a motor test is complicated, the Russian language uses these words like islovchitsya and prelovchitsya. What do you mean? To contrive or to adapt skillfully. Okay, these words like is love chicks, yeah, and pre love chits, yeah, which mean to, to contrive or to adapt skillfully, and when force isn't enough, you need a love guy. What's that? A trick, a clever maneuver? Okay, and even the word for becoming proficient now of Chili's, shares the same root love. As love cost dexterity so it's all connected.
Speaker 2:It is. It's all about that skillful adaptation, that motor initiative.
Speaker 1:So this first essay, it really lays the foundation for Bernstein's whole exploration of dexterity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's just getting started.
Speaker 1:Right, and he even gives us a little roadmap of what's to come in the rest of the book.
Speaker 2:He does. He talks about the basis of motor control, the evolution of movements, how movements are constructed in humans, the different levels of motor control, the physiology of motor skill development.
Speaker 1:Okay, so a lot to cover.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he ends with a more detailed definition of dexterity.
Speaker 1:So we've got a lot to look forward to.
Speaker 2:We do.
Speaker 1:And he makes a point of asking the reader to follow the book in order.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, he's very insistent about that.
Speaker 1:Why is that?
Speaker 2:He says it's like a geometry textbook Each step is necessary for understanding the next.
Speaker 1:Right, so you can't just jump ahead you can't skip ahead. You've got to build that foundation Well this has been a really interesting look at Bernstein's initial thoughts on dexterity. It's clearly so much more than just being physically coordinated.
Speaker 2:It's a whole different way of thinking about movement and skill.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he really introduces us to this idea of dexterity as motor wits.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like intelligence applied to movement, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it makes you think about you know, those times when you've had to use unexpected skill or ingenuity in a physical task.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those moments where you have to figure something out on the fly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and how that connects to this idea of dexterity as motor wits. It changes your whole perspective.
Speaker 2:It really does.
Speaker 1:So we encourage you to reflect on this and maybe even check out Bernstein's book. It's a dense read, but it's worth it.
Speaker 2:It's a challenge, but it's full of insights.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for joining us on this deep dive.