SHE Asked Podcast

Why Women Shrink (and How to Stop) | Dani Davis on Intuition, Patriarchy & Self-Trust

• Anna McBride

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In this episode of SHE Asked: Tools for Practical Hope, host Anna McBride sits down with Dani Davis—an award-winning director, writer, producer, and creative leader—for a powerful conversation about women’s voices, intuition, presence, and reclaiming personal sovereignty.

Dani shares her honest origin story, reflecting on a 25-year journey toward confidence, clarity, and self-trust. From becoming one of the youngest lead producers on Broadway to moments of profound self-betrayal, Dani explores what happens when women make themselves small—and what becomes possible when they stop.

Together, Anna and Dani unpack how healing requires radical honesty, why presence is a revolutionary act for women, and how intuition shows up in the body when we are listening to ourselves. They also explore the cultural and internal forces that pressure women to stay contained, tolerated, or quiet—and how reclaiming one’s voice can transform not only a life, but an entire community.

Dani shares practical insights on slowing down, listening to the body, setting boundaries, and surrounding yourself with people who truly see you—especially when standing on the edge of greater visibility.

🎧 Listen in and be reminded: your presence matters, your voice is not too much, and it’s never too late to come home to yourself.

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Meet Danny Davis And Her Rise

SPEAKER_02

Okay, here we go. Welcome back to She Asked: Tools for Practical Hope. I'm your host, Anna McBride, and I'm so excited that you're here. Today I'm joined by Danny Davis, an award-winning artist, director, writer, producer of touring musicals, whose work draws from artistry, leadership, and mentorship. Danny builds shows and builds people. She creates viable, sustainable models for bringing musicals across the country while also directing meaningful work that invites audiences into their intelligence, joy, and capacity to love. She is a collaborator, a leader, and a mentor to young artists and teams and someone who understands both the business of art and the soul of it. Danny, I'm so grateful that you're here. Welcome to She Az. Thanks, Anna.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you so much. Thank you for being here. It really is. I loved listening to the podcast. I listened to several episodes and just loved everything. I have lots of questions for you. Okay, great. We'll do that some other time. Of course.

SPEAKER_02

Of course. We like to start our podcast with a story. Okay. And so I want to invite you to share your story. You've said it took nearly 25 years to feel yourself in the world with confidence and clarity.

Success, Pushback, And Shrinking

SPEAKER_01

Can you tell us about that journey? I really, you know, it's fascinating. In my 20s, I was a performer, a dancer on Broadway, and other things. I did a lot of commercials, things like that. But I aspired all the time to move into producing and directing. That was really where I wanted to go with my life. And so in my early 30s, I was a young mom. I was a single mom. And I just decided to go for it. What was fascinating was by the time I was 35 years old, I was the youngest lead producer on Broadway, and I was also just about the only woman in that story. Wow. And I had this incredible time of expansion, I would say from age 30 until about 36 or 37. Somewhere in there, when I got too big for my britches for the men in my world, there started to be this pushback against all of these things that I was doing. And it was fascinating to me because I had not encountered that having been a performer, there was certainly that sort of misogyny and all of that around performers, which is why I really didn't love doing it. I also didn't love doing it because I loved the making of art, not necessarily the presentation of art. That's just a thing that's in me. I didn't occur to me that as I graduated from being a performer to moving into making the art, that I would continue to be met with that kind of prejudice, if you will. And for a little while, maybe people were just really surprised that I was this dancer going for it and founding my own production company, and they were just watching me move through the space. When I started to gain some success, I really got pushback and it was startling to me. Wow. I thought, why am I why is that happening? Why is that happening? Why are people trying to make me small? And I didn't have the life experience at that time to say this would happen on repeat, and has happened on repeat for so many women who move into leadership positions at a time that's inconvenient for the men in their lives. That's an interesting note. And that's what was happening. So I would say I pushed back against it for another couple of years and really dove in. I had two Tony nominations by the time I was 37. I had three Emmy Awards by the time I was 40. I really worked at it and stayed in, even as it was tough and there was a lot of pushback. Men would say things like, This is not about you. And I was like, I know. I do know that. Yeah. But there's something powerful about a woman expanding into space and not holding that space of mothering and nurturing and leading and more importantly, not fitting into the box that they want you to. And they want you in that box. That box is so comfortable for them. But what that did, and the reason I say it took 25 years, is because there was a point at which I let it affect me. Okay. So tell us about that. So what was interesting about that was I was a business partner with my now ex-husband. And at a certain point, and he's a very successful composer, at a certain point, I started believing all of the chatter around me. And I started receding and getting behind my ex-husband and saying to myself, he's really the one with the gift. Okay. Okay. Okay. So really put your energy into his career. And while now, as I reflect back on it, I was just adjusting to being in the box that everybody wanted me to be in. And it was going to be difficult for the rest of the world for the two of us to walk side by side.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

Losing Voice And Rebuilding Identity

SPEAKER_01

So it was so much more comfortable for everyone else, but it became very uncomfortable for me. And if again, if I'm very honest about that, it started to create a real breakdown in our relationship. Because I wasn't being honestly myself. And I became smaller and it made me feel bad. Yeah. As a person. I'm sure. How could it not? Yeah. And I it's just fascinating to me, though, that I started with a lot of great intention. And I started out thinking, I can totally do this. I can figure this out. Right. I can make this happen. And with a great work ethic, a great sense of enthusiasm, a great degree of hope, a lot of naivety, which I think is always good when you're starting to hang out. But then over time, that got eroded away. My husband, my ex-husband suffered a very difficult midlife thing. Our whole world blew up when topsy turvy. It was really crazy. And we've survived it. I always say all the wheels came off of our wagon and then all the wheels got back on. Have this new sort of rickety but really sturdy wagon family. But at that time, when that happened, my focus turned toward my kids and to getting us to safety and to building a degree of security. It was at that time that I started to reconnect with that person who was capable of doing and making things happen and caring for things and really being strong and confident. It did take me several years to get back to feeling like I had a very robust career, but I started to reconnect with myself at that time. And when that started to happen, when I knew it was about our family's survival, and there was an imperative to my being strong, I realized then I it was gonna take a while to build it back, but I wasn't gonna let it go ever again. Not for anything. And that was profound for me. Yeah, I mean so there's time, there's career stuff, career years perhaps that I lost. There's a big gap between my early career achievement and now. And as a woman, I could say, Oh, I stepped away to raise the kids. I can tell a story. I could go ahead and tell a story that's acceptable to everybody else. So I turned my focus to the children, and then of course the marriage broke up, and of course, then I really focused on the kids.

SPEAKER_02

Right, one that fits into the narrative of society. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

And it does, it except that's not the truth. So the truth is I lost my voice. Right. And then it took me a while to get it back. There you go. That's the truth.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Yeah. Yeah. We're gonna get into that because that is really what we're talking about is how to come back from or get through the process. First with awareness. Yeah. And then what do you do? Because that's the thing about awarenesses. And I've had them. Your story, girl, we'll talk. I mean, you're I had it something somewhat similar. However, what I want to get to is the fact that I was aware very early on that the marriage wasn't working for me. And what it was costing me, I was aware of that. I didn't know what to do about it. And I think that's the crossroads that a lot of women come to at some point in their life. It doesn't have to necessarily be their relationship, it could be their career, it could be a lot of things in life. And yet, unless we get to some of the practical ways to break through and rebuild and reconnect, as you said, with that truer version of ourselves, we can be stuck for a long time. I was. Yeah. Wow, what a great story. What a great story. Because I think it like teetered between so many people's experiences, which is really what we're talking talking about, this universal idea of where women can get stuck. And I certainly can't wait to hear more about how you became unstuck. So let's jump right into some questions. Okay. I want to talk about instinct, intuition, and making yourself small. You've been very clear that success came when you trusted your instincts, and struggle came when you put your intuition aside. What does intuition feel like in your body when you're listening to it?

SPEAKER_01

When I'm listening to it, there's an ease and a flow in me. I'm clear-headed, I'm breathing, I'm present. Lots of ideas will come into my head that feel very productive and feel useful. And if I am not listening to myself, there's a grip in my chest. I'm struggling with focus. I'm having trouble putting a sentence together.

SPEAKER_02

So you go from clarity to confusion.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. Yeah. That's really what happens. You feel that in your chest. I do. I feel it in the center of my body. Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Because I have this theory about what's known as or what's been described as emotional tells that our body is working with feelings or emotions to get our attention. And so where we feel it is almost as important as what we feel. And that's a great way to get to know and connect with yourself. So how do you cultivate your intuition?

SPEAKER_01

I work very hard to slow myself down and listen to myself. I work less hard now. But in order to get back to that place of really listening to myself, I really had to slow myself down.

SPEAKER_02

So give me some examples of ways in which you slow down.

Intuition: Signals, Scripts, And Saying No

SPEAKER_01

Rather than being reactive and thinking about if someone said, Danny, can you do this thing? Certainly I could do the thing, right? Rather than thinking about, do I want to do this thing? Am I going to be able to give the best of myself to this thing? Okay. Does this thing fit into the space of my world? Will I really be a great contributor? Will I be proud of this thing? I would often say, sure I can do that. Yes, I can do that. Sure, I can do that.

SPEAKER_02

So instead of being reactive, right? Which can be misunderstood versus responsive. Responsive requires us to slow down, pause, consider, like you said, does this really work for me? Does it fit into my realm of what I want to do, much less what I can do? That's right. And so much in society kind of pushes people to quickly jump in. Yes. Say yes.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I had to work early on as I was getting myself back on my feet to say, thank you so much for reaching out. I'd love to take a couple of days to think about this and ensure that I could be useful to this. That is such a powerful response. And I would have it written down on my desk so I would remember that was my response, not sure I can do that for you.

SPEAKER_02

I'm a big believer in scripts when we're trying to break a pattern. Absolutely. Because people can get stuck with what do I say versus I know what I want to say. More people worry about what the other person wants him to say. That was me all to please them. Yeah. Just want everybody to be happy.

SPEAKER_01

And that I wasn't happy. And but I think what was funny was I have a friend, a colleague, another woman director, and she's tough as nails. And she would say, No is a complete sentence. And I'd say, It is. I just can't use that sentence. I'm not good at that sentence. I have to come up with another sentence. So I also think it's about recognizing what feels right for you in terms of your own responsiveness. Like where do you originate? My intuition is so heart-centered. It is not in my head, it is not in my stomach. Yeah. It's right at the center.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think that's where it's it's supposed to be, hopefully guided by, anyways, if it feels somewhere else. You had it made me think about something else in terms of when we don't know what to say, often we'll say what we think the other person wants us to say, as you said, because you want everyone to be happy.

SPEAKER_01

I just know there are all kinds of ways that women can feel victimized. Or like we were talking about earlier, we can tell the story that works for everybody else. So I could tell the story of my husband left me, the whole world blew up, I was a victim. I could tell, I can totally tell that story, and everybody's gonna buy that story. Everybody, oh my god, isn't that awful? And I can tell that story, and for a while I did tell that story to myself. Yeah, and then I had to stop telling myself that story. Right. It's like, let's go look at this, let's get uncomfortable here, and let's see what you didn't see, and let's go look at what you decided not to deal with, and let's talk about how you set yourself by the side of the road several years back, girl, and you gotta go back and get yourself and pull yourself together.

SPEAKER_02

That's right. That level of honesty is so important in order to really heal. Because I think like we we have these opportunities. I think that's how I like to look at it. Opportunities in life where something happens, right? And you have to pivot, and you can pivot and probably continue on a path that is performative and socially acceptable. And like you said, a lot of people will support that story. Makes sense to them. It's the box that they think you ought to be in. Now, because I'm learning from you just how expansive you were and wanted to return to, you can't stay in the box. You can't break free. Yes. And that requires honesty. I think that's one of the main ingredients, as well as a willingness, like you said, to get uncomfortable and look at everything, what your part was in it. What your part is, what my part was. Wow. Wow, what a great reckoning that you came to. What did making yourself small look like for you?

Stories We Tell Ourselves

SPEAKER_01

I wish I could say it made me into this demure, sweet, quiet, kind person. It actually made me really angry. Oh. Internally really angry. So then how did that show up professionally or creatively? I didn't. I just would say, no, that's not true. It did. I would rather than go for the gusto and do the big job that I was totally capable of, I would say, oh, okay, I'll just do this lesser piece. I won't do the making of the thing. I'll do the, I can execute on the making of the thing for you. You're the person with the great ideas. I can run the bases for you. So what would happen was I knew I could do that job, all the jobs, but I would go, oh, I'll go take this smaller job. Oh, okay. And then inside of myself, I would be frustrated by the outcomes, by the processes. I was not in a position to influence processes in such a way that there was mentorship, that there was collaboration, that there was opportunity for growth for everyone, which matters a lot to me as a human being. But I would continually do that to myself. I would take the lesser position. And I had to decide to stop doing that. So again, back to responsiveness. Thank you so much for reaching out to me. I'm gonna take a few days and give this some thought and see if it can fit into the schedule that I've got going on right now. And then I would have a talk with myself. And I would say, You do this again, yep, the money will be there. Yep. And will you be there? I would ask myself that question.

SPEAKER_02

That's an interesting question.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so it was costing a lot. Costing so much about that anger with myself, just that disappointment in myself.

SPEAKER_02

I always say the worst betrayals are the ones we do to ourselves. Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_01

Rough. Yeah, I know. It is rough. And then what would happen is everything would go okay. Things would be okay, but they wouldn't be great. It wouldn't be great. Because my greatness was missing. And I know that can even as I say that, and I go, geez, Danny, that's quite boastful of you to say that. But it's true. If my greatness was present, the thing would be great. Right.

SPEAKER_02

Because that's because you weren't shining. Right. When you dim your light, the light goes down. It does. For everyone. For everyone. That's right. For everyone. That's right. Yeah, I can understand that. Oh, it's big. Because I live like that for me. And I think many women do. I agree. I agree. This is why it's such a pleasure to talk to you about this because I don't really find many women having conversations about this, about how we contributed, maybe. Not consciously to our own imprisonment, our own shrinking. When we really are such bright lights, and that's the way we're gonna be from now on.

SPEAKER_01

That's right.

SPEAKER_02

So tell me a practice or a couple of practices that helped you break free of that.

SPEAKER_01

One thing that was significant for me was to see the progress of the children and to understand that if I were giving them certain words about what their capacity was, then I had to actually be in the world in that way myself. There was a part of me that just kept saying Wanted to be authentic. I you need to do the things you're talking about. Okay. Okay, so that was important. Do you have daughters? I have a son and a daughter. They're five years apart. My son is my eldest, and my daughter is my youngest. Okay. Yeah. And they're just big bright lights. They were both really big.

SPEAKER_02

I'm sure it's awesome. I'm sure. And so as they began growing and expanding, you were calling upon yourself to do the same. I was.

SPEAKER_01

And I still and even now it feels like a greater imperative now that they're young adults. So it's like you walk the walk instead of just talk the talk. Yeah. Yeah. And also, I didn't like myself very much. I didn't like that I'd let myself be small. I didn't like that I'd let myself become an angry person. I didn't, it just I wasn't myself. And prior to the pandemic, I was in a live-in-partnership with an another man. And during the pandemic, I went to my place on Cape Cod with my kids, and he stayed here in New York with his.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

Presence, Mindfulness, And Removing Noise

SPEAKER_01

And what was great about that, to tell you the truth, was that it gave me an opportunity to be by myself. And I would say that the greatest gift I gave myself was once my daughter went off to college, I just hunkered down with just me and myself. Wow. And it was very uncomfortable. And it I spent about two years just dealing with myself. Great. And talking to myself and learning about myself. They say we spend the most time with ourselves. So we don't like ourselves. I didn't like myself very much then. I will say that. I did not like myself very much.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

I appreciated that I'd gotten everybody to safe harbor. I knew I was capable. I could look at things I'd done and I could say, yep, okay, good on you. But I think I'd betrayed myself so much over the years. I hadn't believed enough in my capacity to really care for myself. Wow. And the others around me. And so I didn't like that part of myself. And I wanted to correct that. I didn't want to move forward in that way anymore. So what did you do in order to address? So I did a lot of journaling. Okay. I did a lot of paying slow attention. Slow attention, I would say. If a if an opportunity would come in, I'd really think about that opportunity.

SPEAKER_03

All right.

SPEAKER_01

And really take time to think about how I might contribute. And I would think about what was meaningful for me. Okay. And that helped a lot. I started to ask myself those bigger questions. And also started to spend time with myself, not partnering, not coupling, not doing those kinds of things, and just hanging out with myself and doing things by myself. Big things, small things, traveling by myself, having dinner with just myself, just and realizing that I'd spent nearly 30 years other, whether it was mothering or partnering or daughtering or whatever it was. Yeah. But I hadn't really spent a good amount of time with myself.

SPEAKER_02

And I was like, an interesting concept to know that in the process of raising a family, we can get so lost or so foreign from who we are. Yeah that we forget who we are. And we can get lost in that process. I know I did. I too had a situation where when I finally, or actually when I got separated from my husband for the first time, because we it took a few repeats to get it really done. We were living in Dallas, Texas at the time, and so I moved back to Philadelphia with my three kids. I told him if we get divorced, I was going to move back there anyway, because that's where family is. And I wanted his permission to let me take the kids and go. And to his credit, he said yes. So we moved back, found a farmhouse, the one that I described, and I was alone there with them. Me, the girls were in high school. I have twin daughters, and they was were in entering ninth grade, and my son was entering fourth grade. It was just the four of us and our cat and our dog. And I spent more time listening to them as to what their grievances were, and there were a lot. There were a lot. And they were right because I stopped listening to them a long time before that because I was so codependent with my ex-husband. And and so during that repairing time, we grew in connection again. And as I did, I started to trust myself more as a mother and as a woman and as someone who was able to find her way. So I really relate to that how important that repairing time is. And then even again, when the kids go, when you have that empty nest, there's another repair of just yourself. Because you're right. When you're left to your own devices, if we're not talking very well to ourselves, it's a really bad conversation.

SPEAKER_01

I realized that I had over and over again throughout my life leveraged my own safety. And as I examined it, I thought that's really that's too bad. Yeah. And that's too bad for you, and that's too bad for the people around you, and you need to fix that. You need to stop doing that.

Patriarchy As A System And Agency

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I think that's so important. So let's talk about patriarchy presence and women's voices. I love that. Yeah, I have so many thoughts and feelings about this. I can't wait to hear your point of view. So you speak so powerfully about the patriarchy. Finding women is too much. How have you learned to recognize when that pressure is external versus internal?

SPEAKER_01

It's a system. I'm the director of this wonderful show called Cindy of Ark, which is basically how the patriarchy has destroyed civilization, going all the way back to God. It's one of my favorite projects, and we're gonna go to the Edinburgh Festival with it this uh summer. But the patriarchy is a system and we're all in it. We all are in it. We all orient ourselves to the world in terms of it. Right. So it's not something that happens to women, it's just a system we're all a part of. Okay. And so I think recognizing that is essential first so that when we ask ourselves a question, if something doesn't feel right intuitively, we ask this question, does this feel right to me? And then if it doesn't, I think the next question is you do recognize that if you decide to make a more authentic choice, you may get some pushback. Okay. And I think that women need to know that.

SPEAKER_00

Like just be authentic, just be yourself, just go out into the world and be yourself.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, and in so doing, recognize that there will be a necessary systemic pushback because it's the system we're in, and that's okay. And we can change the system over time by recognizing that there will be pushback. Yeah. That's just a part of it. Yeah. Not they're pushing me down, this is wrong. What I'm trying to do is wrong. It's not wrong. It's just it's bucking the system.

SPEAKER_02

I think what I love about what you just said is that not only are you asking calling women to be to face reality, the reality of the way the world works, or has, at least till now. It's the way that they tell themselves what the system is doing to them. Yes. And I think a lot of that is where people can get tricked up. Because we can tell ourselves, as you just said, that we're victims of it and that I can't do anything about this. Or we can say this happened, and how am I going to respond to this? Yeah. And what am I going to do about it? Because you're right. I think we have to own our narrative and the way we're our perspective and the way we're experiencing what's going on. Because we can abdicate our agency.

SPEAKER_01

Our agency, our power. I think you used a word in conversation before, sovereignty, which I adore. But I think it's a great word. You can borrow it anything. It's just such a specific word.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it is. It's very specific. Because I think it's important to really own your life. And I've worked so hard for that myself, and that's what I work with women on. But let's talk about how I have this theory that we were talking about the version of us that first faced things because that's when the story gets really imprinted. And so we can formulate these things very young in life. Yes. When we think about that, how old were you when you began believing that first that I had to push against this or that they're gonna push back? Or and when I want you to think about it is in terms of within your family dynamic. Because a lot of what you know I know I had to do was I had to actually go back to when I was that young because so much of what I believed about the world I inherited. What was your experience?

Sovereignty, Mentorship, And Girl Power

SPEAKER_01

I grew up with two extremely supportive parents. They were both teachers, and they had two daughters. And my father was an inner city high school teacher who mentored a lot of young people, particularly young women, and would really encourage so many young people to go to college and help them find scholarships and get them. This explains why you were so powerful from the gate. Yeah. Both parents very committed. And I would say my dad, raising two girls, very strong about the world was our oyster and academia was going to be our way forward. And dad talked a lot about networking, talked a lot about building the world around us, making sure there was a support network there as we moved into the world. He was really quite revolutionary as a father of teenagers in the 80s. Yes. My mom was is, my mom remains very powerful, very smart, both of my parents and very smart people. My mother had a huge volunteer component, women's rights, women's business association, getting women who are really just coming out of high school into and really like getting a GED and finding work opportunities and becoming professional women. So that's the world we grew up in. Yeah. And you were up in New York City? In Massachusetts. In Massachusetts, okay. And but there was a point at which, even in that world, that there was confusion. And so I would say when I was a teenager and I started to date people, there was suddenly this thing that came from my parents, which was surprising to me, which was I was doing something wrong. Or the message I received was that I was doing something wrong by adding the element of a social life to this very direct path towards success. I was a young professional dancer, I had straight A's, I was in student government, I never veered from I was just and somehow adding this. And interestingly, when I was a teenager, I got a lot of attention from boys. In fact, honestly, Anna, throughout my life, I get a lot of attention from men. And that's a thing, too, that we need to work with. And something I've seen in my daughter, and I educate her around that, and she has a much better understanding of that space and the all of that. It's really awesome that I was able to see that start to happen for Nina and say, let's talk about this. We can talk about that. That's great. We could never talk about that in my family. So I started to think that there was something wrong with that. Oh so I would say that it was then I was like, gosh, I'm not really doing anything different than what I normally do in the world. I'm not behaving differently, but somehow this part of life, there's something wrong here. Okay. And I'm doing something wrong. So what that did, to tell you the honest truth, was it made me very insecure about my ability to trust relationships. Okay. Yeah. I thought I must be bad at that then.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, interesting because if you fast forward to when you oh started having your challenges in your work life and in your home life, it can bring up those old stories. That's right. The thing about stories, as you very well described, is they're not ours. Often they're not ours. You inherited those indirectly through the way your parents were responding to your social life.

SPEAKER_01

And I'm certain that they looking back on it, they probably weren't thinking I I'm as a bad person. No. But they were probably coming from a place of, uh-oh, what if this takes Danny off course? Rather, and so rather than having the conversation and just say, we really believe in you and we really want to make sure you stay on track, and all of this other stuff is lovely and fun, but we hope you'll stay on track. It came in in another way. It comes in through fear sometimes, and that's reactive versus responsive.

SPEAKER_02

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So you said that when you are present, you can take care of yourself, your children, and others. And when you shrink, you falter. So why do you think presence is such a radical act for women? Oh boy.

SPEAKER_01

Because you know what it does? When a woman's really present, everybody stops and listens to her. Even if she's not saying anything.

SPEAKER_03

And that's so horrible.

SPEAKER_01

And it's so beautiful. And and I think when we have such presence, we can I can be a really good listener. I can hear what's really happening for someone, and I can offer something meaningful. And when I'm not present, I'm gonna miss an opportunity to make real connections and to create a meaningful, impactful moment. I'm gonna miss it. And I don't want to miss those opportunities anymore. I'm just not interested in that.

Calling Women Forward And Taking Space

SPEAKER_02

That's such a great thing to hear. It's also something that I think women don't understand in terms of how it is that we can work towards becoming more present. So tell me some ways in which you work on that.

SPEAKER_01

Again, that slowing myself down piece. Okay. Crucial. Right. Do you meditate? I do. I meditate. Yeah. I do a lot of breathing. I do a lot of yoga. Okay. Yeah. I love yoga. I do a lot of walking. All right. Yeah. And I also don't take in a lot of noise. I don't listen to music. I don't listen to lots of podcasts. I don't have television on. I really, for me to be very present requires my real attention on the moment that I'm in and not distraction and doing two things at once and all that multitasking. That's great. Sounds very mindful. It's mindful, but it's, I would say it's also necessary. Like I'm I don't do that because I think that I'm some kind of fabulous person. I do it again because it is necessary for me to do the best work I can do, whether I'm in my relationship with my kids or in my work or with my friends, it feels essential that I don't bring in that noise.

SPEAKER_02

So then going back to that emotional tell description, where in your body do you feel it when you are present?

SPEAKER_01

When I'm present, I just feel I have this kind of lightness in my head. Like right now, I've got this ease in my head, and my whole body feels really relaxed and there's nothing getting stuck anywhere. Okay. Right.

SPEAKER_02

So it's just a total relaxation, which is almost like a way like alignment. It is a total alignment. Great. Yeah. I do a lot of work in the recovery field, and in the rooms they talk about this expression that you want we want our minds, our bodies to be in the same place at the same time. Yes. And too often I know I was like this before is that I was thinking about tomorrow or worrying about yesterday and cooking dinner at the same time. Or changing diapers or driving, God forbid.

SPEAKER_01

But I think there's a necessary time of life where that's short, that stuff's true. Like we can't just always move through the world in total alignment. There is that time of life where it's all firing at once, especially as women. We're mothers, we have careers, we're volunteering, we're thinking about a million things at one time. If we can have any moments of presence in that time, I think that's a win. Yeah. We really do. I think at this time of life, the opportunity for presence is massive. Yeah. This is where we get to optimize. And it is, it is crucial. I think it's crucial. I agree. I agree. But I think that this time of life affords us that opportunity for real presence. And I just I love it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Good. So let me see what I was gonna say. Oh, all right. What do you see so clearly in women and girls that they often cannot yet see in themselves?

SPEAKER_01

I think that word sovereignty. I was privileged enough to co-found a company called Girl Starter, which we had a reality television show and the Discovery Network empowering young women like teenagers to build businesses and team up with each other to build out new businesses. And we had all these massive corporate sponsors and all of this attention. And we had a great group of young women from all over the country. And I saw in them, in that early, early adulthood space, that power, that sense. Of self before the world starts to intervene, they really felt great about that. And then I would start to see younger women in their late 20s and early 30s, myself included, maybe not at that level, but I could see where they would start to falter in their belief in themselves. Because life starts to happen and maybe it doesn't go according to the plan that one said it never does. And then that ability to say to someone, I see. I see how amazing you are. I see this. When I see women question themselves, I always say, tell me about why this is a question right now. Why does this feel like a question right now?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. I really like that. Because I just I think what it does is it probably catches people off guard.

SPEAKER_01

It does. It does.

Safety, Failure, And Authentic Abundance

SPEAKER_02

Because we don't often know that we're presenting ourselves as a question as opposed to a statement or an out, a knowing.

SPEAKER_01

I also think when some when a young woman tells me or any woman tells me they're doing this thing, I always say, that sounds amazing. Tell me more about that. I want to know more about that. Yeah. I think that's great. Wow, yes, I totally see that in you. Yeah. I think that women need to hear from each other that they're allowed to dream big and do big things. And they can be bold and they can be audacious and they can come up with some wacky, wonderful thing and put it into the world, and that's beautiful. And I just I just believe it, and again, this is pushing back against a system that we even women buy into.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we've participated in.

SPEAKER_01

We participate. So in order to break that, and I I think it's good to break it. I think it's good to break things open and use different language. I'm always fascinated. Instead of also, I don't like to say you're awesome, like all the time, even though I do say you're awesome all the time. But I don't say that first. Always talk about the thing a woman's doing that just feels very affirming and feels right, and how does that feel to them?

SPEAKER_02

Okay. I love the focus on feeling.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Because I feel my opinion is that, and bias is that often we can go right to the performance, the doing, and not enough with the being in it. Who am I in this? How am I experiencing this? And because it's through the experience that we connect, through the experience that we really bring these things forward in the world and affect other people.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think it's great.

SPEAKER_01

I think we should not be afraid. I think one of women's superpowers is we do lead with a sense of heart. We do have nurturing implicit in our bodies, in our orientation to the world. I think that's great. And I think it's okay to let that be present in our engagement with other people. Yeah. I really do. I feel, and I see that in younger women. I see younger women integrating that more than women of our generation. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah, it's really cool.

SPEAKER_02

I know we've had to catch up.

SPEAKER_01

We said that.

SPEAKER_02

Which is okay. All right, so let's pivot a bit to calling women forward. In your work, you actively call women out, and I know you mean this in the best. In the best way. So what does it mean?

SPEAKER_01

And how do women name their greatness out loud? So when I first started, I'll go back to when I was producing Little Women on Broadway, which was my first show as a lead producer, and I was really, again, like I say, one of the only women producers, I would be often the only woman in a meeting, in a production meeting, in an advertising meeting, all of those things. And I thought, hmm, it's weird. And so as I would see other women interested in doing it, I'd say, Yeah, why don't you just come along and do this with me and see what, see how it feels to you, to see how it feels. And then they would get an idea, and I'd say, Oh, I think that's a great idea. How are you gonna make that happen? Let's talk about how we're gonna make that happen. So a lot of women started reaching out to me just to talk, just to say, I've got this thought. And I just felt like it was very exciting. And I would often say, You could meet with some resistance here. Don't worry about it. It's just what it is. Keep going, keep doing the beautiful things you're doing. Let me know how I can be of help in that way. Wow, wow. And over time, so there now the Broadway business, the live entertainment business is flooded with women in leadership positions. It's unrecognizable to me and in the best way possible. And it's thrilling to see, and it's thrilling to see young women take projects on and make them happen and feel like they can take up space. And I just love it so much. I am passionate about it. I can tell. I really am. And it so Girl Starter was this incredible opportunity to actually formalize that, put it down on paper, put it on television, get that out there. Um, but I think that in the doing in life in general, for me, I'm always excited when a woman says, I want to do this thing, and I say, Okay, let's go figure out how we're gonna do it. So the calling them out is like calling them forward, right? And saying, Yeah, you have what needs to be. Inviting me to step up for themselves.

Third Act: Time, Intention, And Regret

SPEAKER_02

You can do that. Yeah, you got that. That's great. That's great. Now, what do women most need to hear when they're standing on the edge of their own visibility?

SPEAKER_01

That is a big question. I know what I need to hear. What I need to hear is you are safe. You are safe, you have all you need to take care of yourself. Wow. And you might fail, and you're still going to be safe. Wow. Yeah, you are safe. You might fail. I have I have failed. I have failed. I have succeeded. All of the things have happened. I don't think I imagined life would look the way it has looked. I could never have seen the life I've lived today. I could never have seen the difficulties my children would have endured based on choices that I made. I could not have seen the journey, not the good stuff, not the bad stuff, not the beauty that's come out of both.

SPEAKER_02

So what I'm hearing you said describe is that the women yourself needed permission to fail.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And a reassurance that they'll still be safe, even when they do.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I think it's frightening within the patriarchy for women to make bold choices. I think we are a bit of the backbone of the system. Okay. We hold it in place without knowing that's what we're doing. And when we step away from that space of holding and we put ourselves on the edge of the cliff, it just messes everything up for everyone, including ourselves. And the world says, that's not good. That you you know, you should nope, don't do that. What's gonna happen? What and so in me, what happens is, oh well, I mustn't be safe then. I mustn't know what I'm doing. I guess I I shouldn't do this. I'm not I'm gonna leverage my safety. Yeah, and so for me on the edge of the cliff, you are safe. Okay, you are safe, you can do this, you may fail, and you may succeed.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, and you'll be safe, and you'll be safe, yeah. That's such a like a two different aspects of the same thing. Yeah, yeah. Because it is an and. It's an and it's not an either-or. The only or could be success, failure, but it's always successful if you're learning from it. Yeah. And growing through it. Yes. And I think that's some aspects that people can lose when they're putting themselves out there.

SPEAKER_01

I couldn't agree more. I had an odd thing happen this morning, and my kid's dad sent me a video of my daughter and her friends singing a song last night, a song from Little Women, that he wrote and that I produced, and they were just standing at the piano singing it, and he sent me that video, and then another video of a song from a show that he's written that's on Broadway right now, and it was so beautiful. And just seeing these friends of Nina, they've been friends since they were little, and there they all are at the piano singing these songs, and it was just so glorious. And then I opened a gift from my son, he and his now wife had sent me a beautiful album from their wedding in September, and uh these gorgeous photos of the day, and it was extraordinary, and I was thinking about my what appears to be a broken family, except I suddenly felt this incredible abundance, and I started to cry, and I started to cry at the beauty of this life that I have because I was brave enough to be authentic enough in it and call myself out on it. Wow. And let those relationships be as gorgeous as they are. Yeah. And I was really moved by it. Just I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that after all the things that have happened, that I get to be here.

Fear Dialogues And Practical Courage

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. What I'm hearing about you is that you have an incredible outlook on life. And that outlook affords you still to be amazed when things turn out differently than you expected. It also carries you through when the bumps happen, and it allows you to show up very fiercely when you need to. When I need to. Yeah. And I think that's really what we the only thing we control is our outlook. It's true. And regardless of what's happened. Regardless of what's happened. Yeah, because there are dead bodies back there along that path. I hear you. I have some in my trunk somewhere. Um so you've described that this time in your life is what you call the third act, which you don't sound afraid as much as you sound excited and happy. So what has shifted in you and in order to how will you relate to time, ambition, and desire right now?

SPEAKER_01

That's a great question. What has shifted is I feel time, I feel its preciousness. Which doesn't mean I'm afraid that the clock is ticking and there won't be time. I just feel the power and the preciousness of time. Okay. So I'm much more deliberate, I'm much more careful about the choices that I make in general. And that has helped me to slow down and make more intentional and beautiful choices. And I intend to continue in that way. So that's shifted. It's that sense of, oh, and Jane Fonda I saw this wonderful thing where she said about her third act, that the one thing she felt was she didn't want to have any regrets when she got to the end of it. And I love that. I want to feel like I can respect myself, that I like myself, and that I'm proud of my choices. That's great. And that has shifted so that I'm on a daily basis much more intentional in general. And I feel very fortunate to have this opportunity to live this way. I wow.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, quite a life. Quite a life. Let's get towards that quiet voice inside you that kind of sometimes still calls you back, which I would guess is fear. But you tell me, what do you do when that voice pops up to confront it?

SPEAKER_01

So that voice comes in and it squarely hits me in the chest, right? That voice goes, and then I just talk to it now. Okay, I totally hear you. I know this is crazy, right? Oh boy, this is crazy. We have no business doing any of this. And I'll start making fun of it in their way. And and I'll just say, I'm gonna do it anyway. And then it's a little bit a little bit tighter. Oh. And I'll say, and it is really scary. Sometimes I'll have to acknowledge that it's scary. Oh, okay. Yeah, sometimes I'll have to say, I do feel scared. Sometimes I'll go in and look at myself in the mirror, and I'll do that exercise where you look into an eye. Okay. Have you ever done that exercise? Yeah. That's fascinating. That there's a truth that comes forward. Which I need to look into. I look into my left eye. Yeah, that's what they tell us to do. Wow, it's fascinating. And oftentimes that vulnerability will show itself right there in that left eye. And I'll just nod at it and just let it know that you see it. I see it. Because denying it is not, I don't think for me anyway, that's not comfortable either. Because that means I'm lacking presence. Then I'm like swirling and I'm a little bit uh agitated in an odd way. Right. And so now I say, all right, let's find out. Maybe do you really have something? Maybe you're right. Maybe we shouldn't do this thing. I don't know. And sometimes I'll get another message. I'll get this message, and maybe we won't do the whole thing. Or how about it goes like this? How about we go this way with it? We do it in this way versus in this way. Okay. So there's learning in that voice. There is learning. So you're having a conversation with that part of yourself, which is great. But it is a smaller, it's a much smaller voice. Okay. But there's nothing wrong with that voice, right? No. Because that voice is also, I think that's that safety voice. I say, Yeah. Are we safe? Is this safe? Yeah. Because we we need to be safe.

Visibility, Community, And Closing

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I do think I've learned I've grown to understand and appreciate my nervous system. Yes. And how I for so long was bracing myself for the worst case scenario, and that has a lot to do with the way I grew up. However, I am safe. And whenever I feel that intensity come on, I can see it for what it is, which is it could be one of two things. It could be my confusion that it's actually excitement. I might be excited, and then in that excitement, I might be thinking, oh, what if you do this? Then what? And that can be just a confusion about what it is that I'm really feeling about it. And on the verge, talk about earlier, we were talking about the verge of greatness or being seen. There is that exposure that comes from as when you really put yourself out there. And are you ready? Are you ready for that? And that's really what this year has been becoming for me is the idea of more visibility, really being seen. And I can often still have that twinge of who is what is this? Yeah. And I'm safe.

SPEAKER_01

You're safe and you can be excited. That's right. And you can get to do all the things. That's right. But thank goodness. You want to, and you have the capacity for it, for everything that you imagine. That's right. That's the truth. That's the truth. A final question.

SPEAKER_02

For someone listening who feels the same pull towards bigger, brighter, being more themselves, but still feels afraid, right? Like we were just talking about. What would you want them to know?

SPEAKER_01

I would want them to know that they do have the capacity they think they have. A B, I would want them to name the thing they believe they can do and share it with people.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And I would say surround oneself with people who see you, who see that greatness in you. Oh, I love that. I really think that's very important.

SPEAKER_02

So much of what people tend to do, women particularly, is that they'll want to protect their project. And so then they'll isolate themselves. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And you I say share it widely. You have no idea who's out there with whom you could partner and collaborate and make something even more extraordinary. Right. I have a former colleague, she says all the time, all boats rise with the tide. Nice. That is true. That is true.

SPEAKER_02

We love that metaphor.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. It's beautiful. Right. Yeah. But surround yourself with people who nod at you.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And smile at you. Okay. And laugh with you. And believe with you.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. We need the other. There's no time. In the recovery rooms, again, another expression that popped in my head is go where you're celebrated, not where you're tolerated. Oh, that's so. We can take that. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Because so often we go where we're tolerated. That's what we deserve. That's right. That's right. Yeah. And we deserve so much more. I want to thank you for joining me today, Danny. This was a great conversation and sharing your experience, strength, and hope about women's voices and presence in a patriarchal world. How can our listeners find you?

SPEAKER_01

My website is thednydavis.com. I'm on Instagram as DannyDavis425. If you can find me there, I try to be better about being on Instagram. But yeah, and through my projects, I hope, you know, just stay in touch, find me. Great. Be in touch and I'll get back in touch. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you so much, Danny. You've been listening to She Ass, where healing meets practical hope. I'm your host, Anna McBride. And until soon, be well.