Microcredentials at an R1 Institution

Another episode recorded at the Convergence conference co-hosted by UPCEA and AACRAO focusing on credential innovation. Microcredentials have popped up in many places, but what about at a research-intensive institution? This episode explores the ways that Rutgers University went about discerning the best path forward with microcredentials. Chris Retzko, Director of Academic Assessment and Accreditation shares his experiences working with the implementation and roll out of microcredentials from the beginning. 

Key Takeaways:

• There was a significant amount of collaboration and involvement from stakeholders to push a report with recommendations on microcredentials forward. Reach out to others across your institution to study, explore, and identify ways that microcredentials will work for your institution. Institutional culture will dictate a lot! 
• Incorporating the microcredential review and approval process into existing administrative systems makes things easier for everyone involved. And don’t forget the assessment piece!
• Microcredentials can be a way to make concrete abstract concepts that students are learning as part of their degree programs. Look to your curriculum’s learning objectives for opportunities!

Host:

Doug McKenna, University Registrar
George Mason University
cmckenn@gmu.edu 

Guests:

Christopher Retzko
Director of Academic Assessment and Accreditation
Rutgers University
retzko@oq.rutgers.edu    

References and Additional Information:

https://conferences.upcea.edu/convergence2023/ 

https://www.aacrao.org/signature-initiatives/learning-mobility/digital-credentials 

https://academicaffairs.rutgers.edu/microcredentialing-and-digital-badging 

Transcript

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You're listening to for the record, a registrar podcast sponsored by Acro. I'm Sarah Reed, the University registrar at UC Berkeley in Berkeley, California. And this is reflections from a semi-retired registrar. Hey, friends. It's Sarah and I'm thrilled to be your host today. Thanks so much for tuning in as we kick things off. I'll share that I've always had a deep interest in the journey and experiences of individuals as they navigate their life and their personal growth in today's topic, we delve into the life of a semi-retired registrar and we learn about his reflections on navigating his personal and professional lives through a reverse review perspective. Beyond talking about the usual career shifts. The goal today is to uncover the influences behind these changes and how they've shaped our guests, personal and professional work, life story. Joining us today is Scott Dittman who has an impressive 47 year career in higher education. Scott's wealth of experience spans admissions, financial aid records and registration and institutional research. Many of you may already be familiar with Scott, given his active involvement in Acro and regional memberships. He's been a presenter at technology sessions for early adopters for over three decades, with his most recent presentations focusing on fostering constructive work relationships and modernizing business procedures. Scott holds the prestigious title of an honorary member of Acro which is the organization's most esteemed recognition. Honorary membership is bestowed upon retiring or retired members in acknowledgment of their lifelong dedication and valuable contributions to Acro and in Scott's own work when he's not engaged in his professional endeavors, he likes to spend time with his wife of 45 years, Susan, including recent travel to the Netherlands. He likes to be with his three kids and nine grandchildren to walk, ride e bikes and volunteer at the Red Cross Blood Drives, which is coming up on 23 gallons donated, which is quite impressive and he plays trombone, although he humorously advises us, don't look at the trombones, it only encourages them. Scott. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate you joining the show today for several reasons. I've been looking forward to the chance to get to know you and talk to you about your lived experience. And this is especially so because I feel like at so many times in my life, especially in my professional career, you know, I've had thoughts of like, what should I do here? How may I do this there? And didn't always have to somebody to ask those kind of questions, those transition questions. So this is, this is a really valuable conversation. Well, It's my pleasure to join you. II, I really appreciate the invitation. There are lots of other people who have taught me and I'm happy to share what I've learned and there's lots of other people with more experience than I. So I, I hope folks will take it with a grain of salt. Of course, it's great. Let's start off by talking a little bit about you. And what makes you you, what are some of your deepest values? What do you enjoy and what are your passions in terms of deepest values? I, I think especially in the working world, as I was thinking about the working world, the idea that work is a real blessing and that it's a lot of my attitude as to whether or not it's a job. I, I always try to find a way to think about the people I work with the people I work for and to make work very personal that certainly applies to my home life as well. I'm always trying to be a better listener and value the people that I, who I love and the people who I work with in new ways in terms of, uh, passions. I, I think it, it has to do with family, with faith, with music, but I'm a pretty easygoing guy and I enjoy movies and I enjoy reading and nothing that takes up all of my time. Yeah, I'm hearing that you're very relationship based. My wife would say people pleaser. But there is something about the relationships there. What is it about, you know, the connection with people that moves you so much, you know, other, other folks might have said whatever, some other, other answer. But the connection and the support of people is something that rings loud and through uh here, what is it about, about that? That's the grounding element for you. I think part of it goes back to the idea of being a people pleaser. But also that I've, I've watched my dad who was a higher ed administrator and his enjoyment of working with people of getting them excited about the educational enterprise of um living a life of, you know, that was social but also focused. And I've always thought of myself as being part of a college community. Um It's a very interesting place to be. I'm always challenged, intellectually challenged professionally, but you just come in contact with so many people who have such broad experience and very different intellectual gifts and interests. And I, I think the relationship, part of it is valuing the people around you and trying to bring that knowledge and that experience into your own life. But then also giving back to it. I, I wish I was a better listener, but I do have a few gifts, at least administratively of listening to many different perspectives and then finding solutions that meet most people's needs. There's certainly a sense of compromise in all of that, but dealing with people where they are and trying to make your, all of your situations better together and that's not easy to do. That's a skill set. You spent your entire career in higher ed and, and wow, what a, what a career, what attracted you to higher education and what has kept you in this field? My mother said that working at a university, you would make a lot of money, but it was a good life and I saw that in terms of the opportunities. Uh I grew up near the Saint Lawrence University campus in Northern New York. And, you know, you'd go over for films or you'd go for bowling or you'd go for chapel services or you'd go to work. It was a small town and the university was a very important part of that town. So I got a real sense of that. I've only recently left small town life. I've never lived in a town larger than 7000 people until the last two years. And where do you live now? We're in Fort Worth now and we're here because of family. You know, we just, I'm able to work from anywhere if I want to. And family here in Texas needed grandparents, especially with the five year old and 12 year old. But we have, so we have four grandkids here and we've got five in North Carolina and we're now at a distance from them in North Carolina. So we'll be spending the summer back on the east coast as well. But I, I think, I think just growing up in the higher ed area watching it happen and then having opportunities starting off as a tour guide as an undergrad and then finding a job in admissions that gave me some financial aid experience. I was actually thinking of leaving that admissions work. But because we wanted to start a family, I was thinking about grad school. We were helping to start a church and, um, they came to me and said, hey, Scott, um, the registrar is retiring. Would you please be an acting registrar for six months until we can find a real registrar? And I'm, I guess I'm still trying to be a real registrar. Wait, so is that recently or way back when that happened? I got into the registry. But, um, and, and then found a place, a different school but found a place where we could live and I worked for Washington and Lee for 35 years before. Then. I have done this semiretirement gig for the last couple of years. Ok. And so let's talk about that transition, right? You've been doing stuff in higher education, very foundational expansive stuff, admissions and others. But then switching over into the registrar career as interim, but still, that's an adjustment. What was that adjustment like for you? One of the reasons that they wanted me to do that was because I had already invested myself in the institution where I was Muskingham College at the time, I'm in Ohio and um I was active with student coc curriculars. I was an advisor in addition to my professional work. So I really knew what was going on on campus. And I think that investment plus I had some technology background and I wasn't afraid of technology. So using that tool to help other folks gain a different perspective. But also already knowing what the institution needed and wanted from me, it was a fairly smooth transition other than learning all of the registrar things, you know, I've never had to worry about drops and ads and transcripts and faculty curricular development and all of those other things. So just walking into with open eyes trying to learn something knew about the institution, I already knew so well when I made the change from one institution to another, it was OK. Now I know the registrar work. OK, I'm not an expert yet, but I can take those tools and now apply them to a new institution and invest myself in that institution and learn more about what their needs are, which were very different. Washington and Lee had a law school and was just going coed at the time, I walked in the door with the first class of undergraduate women the same week I started. So there were lots of new things, exciting challenges and that keeps the energy up Yeah, it really does. Can I, can I pause you for a second? Let me, I would just love to delve deeper here. So, when you were becoming interim registrar, how big was your team? And how did you go about learning that work? There were two of us, there were two of us, the registrar and the assistant to the registrar and both of the previous ones had retired. Oh, my goodness. Vacuum in institutional knowledge and familiarity in from the registrar's perspective. Now they stayed in the area. So I was still able to use their knowledge and, and willingness as, as a mentor. But it was very much uh one of the forgive me old timey registrars who had either worked their way up clerical or had been a faculty member for a long time and was looking for a way to kind of phase down toward retirement administratively. It was not what I had been learning from my work in admissions and financial aid that there's a profession with best practices and formal mentoring and people who are willing to tell you how to do your work. So immediately there was, it seemed obvious to me and I, I made the case with the higher ups that there were lots of changes that we could make that would be better for service, better for efficiency. And again, working for small colleges, my, during my life, it, it's fairly easy to walk into a situation where somebody says we need you to think about this and, and suggest changes I certainly recognize with my relationships with folks who worked at much, much larger institutions that it's harder to make those kinds of changes, but no less valued by your team when you take the work seriously and creatively. Yeah. And then thank you. And then when you went to Washington and Lee, how big is that institution?-- And what was that transition like for-- you? You know, Washington and Lee now is about 1850 undergrads and 400 law students. So it's still on, on the very small side, about 2300 total. When I got there, it was even smaller. But again, they had this big institutional challenge going on of coeducation of a predecessor who really wasn't familiar and wasn't interested necessarily in technology as, as a, a regular tool. And um so I had a couple of very positive opportunities to contribute immediately. I made terrible mistakes early on, you know, they used to have a little computer sized card that students would write in pencil, what their registration was and all these courses that required instructor consent and there was no instructor consent on this little tiny card. So I dismantled it and I said, you know, instructor consent required. Where's the signature? Well, what signature? It's always been in the honor system. We don't have to, I just tell you that I have permission to do it. Well, in the trust but verify e that the mid eighties was um I made the change without asking for advice and got in trouble with a few faculty and a few administrators and saying you can't just walk in and change stuff without talking to people about the culture and what's going on. And I love that you shared that because, you know, we do make mistakes. It's a learning, it's a trial and error and we always try with the best intentions but you know, it's to live is to learn. And uh and I appreciate you sharing that when you have had situations like that. How, how have you gone about rebuilding trust and especially when it's so early in your career and it's at a different institution. I think this is a situation that people can sometimes find themselves in what would be your recommendation in a situation like that from your experience. Well, immediately, I mean, I, I hope that I'm known as an honest person and, and that I can be self critical. I think my wife might disagree. But the idea that I know I'm not perfect that I don't know everything. And again, caring about the relationship, I relate another story. I had a faculty member who was notorious for turning grades in late and my efforts to get all faculty on board with a deadline had to go. So in some cases, person by person and one time he came in and just threw his paper roster of grades on the counter and stormed out and I didn't know what was going on. We hadn't had a conversation but instead of just shrugging and saying, oh, well, that's Harry. I went after him and I stopped him. I said, tell me what's going on. And that led to a really great conversation and we still have a good relationship. He retired ages ago. He's in his eighties, but he's earned another degree in geography. And, you know, he's an interesting guy. If I had just let him go, I might not have solved that problem. He might not have understood my perspective. And especially early in a career, you wanna make sure that you're treasuring those relationships and doing what you can to make sure that if there's bumps in the road as there are always, are that you identify them and do what you can, uh, doesn't always solve everything. There's always difficult people to work with in your office and out of your office. But I, if I had an opportunity to try to smooth the water, build the relationship, I think that's, that, that was always the solution that I had. Yeah, the effort was there. Yeah. Great story. Thank you. Thinking through, I, I was going to ask you something else, but I just can't help myself. So, Washington and Lee, when you were there, first time they had women enrolled in the school, was there anything about that? Transition that process because I imagine that would be a time of, of great change for the institution. Perhaps. Excitement. I don't know, maybe resentment. I'm not sure what was it like to work there at that time of transition? And what was your role if anything in advancing that change? Um I had some personal experience which I think was one of the attractive things about me as a candidate. I was in the second Co ed class at Colgate from my own undergraduate experience and watching Colgate's failures in terms of welcoming women into that environment. And it was a time late sixties, early seventies where lots and lots and lots of all male institutions were were becoming co-educational and having to deal with the problem of um bathroom facilities that had been recently converted from all male facilities or having this close single sex relationship across campus and women were valued as weakened dates. But you know, there was a sign posted on the center uh uh colonnade that said no, Martha's at Washington and Lake. So there were people actively opposed to it. There was a trustee who resigned from the trustees after the decision was made but came back 10 years later with a significant gift saying I was wrong, I was wrong. So, you know, the women have obviously been the best thing for this place. So, I mean, there was some great planning at Washington and Lee in terms of trying to make things as comfortable as possible. For the 1st 100 women coming in, there were some transfers that came in and we also were in Lexington at the same time that VM I was forced to go co ed and watching their adjustment was very different. Not that wo did it perfectly or even didn't have, still work to do, especially when it comes to faculty and staff equity. Uh, the way women are valued or represented within the faculty, there's still work to be done. But that's true. At any institution, we can always get better. Mhm. Yeah, I was reminded of, you know, we're still, you know, we're still making advancements in so many ways. Um You know, you mentioned, you know, like having segregated restrooms and that's still a thing, right? We're still now, you know, I would say fairly recently, right? Institutions have made a great effort to have, you know, gender neutral bathrooms like these are still things that we're, we're working on in higher ed. So it's very relatable and sadly, we're, we're still moving the needle, right? It's still, it's still, you know, still an uphill climb. But thankfully, there's a lot of effort and, and conversation about this.-- Um-- and again, it's, I think valuing the people listening to what people think that they need. It's not always within our power to make changes. I mean, we've learned that from ad a accommodations that sometimes an accommodation that's necessary is not really within the power of the institution to provide. So, um and, and ad a recognizes that and that's true. That's true in dealing with the individualized desire for attention from students, faculty and staff. We can't do, we can't do an individualized solution for every student. And I was going to ask you about failures, but you've mentioned so many, not so many as in you made failures, but just you, you've been very wise that I've ever had so I've ever had. And I feel like folks talk about their glory days and their careers, but, you know, some are easier to talk about than others. But, you know, I think from an audience perspective, there's so much to learn from the rough patches. You know, looking back on your career, are there hard lessons and failures that you learn from? And, and what made them hard? The hardest things are where I have not done a good job of valuing, especially my family and the pressure that, that put on work and family and just overall trying to be all things to all people and not recognizing where the lines needed to be drawn. I think there have been times when I took on a responsibility, for example, Washington and Lee had no centralized institutional research or assessment going on. And the accreditors pointed that out a number of cycles in a row and finally they threw up their hands and said, you gotta do something or we're gonna ding you. So they asked me to take on institutional research. I was already doing some descriptive statistics as registrar, right? How many people are male, female of this religion in this sport, those kinds of things. But I needed more help to do that. So when I agreed to take on institutional research, I hadn't really no idea that it was going to almost double the kind of time that was going to be necessary to do both jobs, both the university registrar and start an institutional research operation. Thankfully, they did give me some support, an associate director on either side who could begin learning and picking up the slack and, and helping us out and, and I did it for five years doing both jobs and that was plenty before we turned it over to an official full time director of institutional research. But I think my not being more thoughtful before saying yes, has probably been the biggest underlying problem maker in my own career. My own life, II, I don't wanna box in or box out career and life. You know, I think that's where we get into this, a discussion about work life balance, that it's not something that you achieve, right? It's a, it's a cyclical process, uh something you have to make decisions on all the time. And I would say I probably have been, I've erred on the side of work as life rather than having a work of life. Working on life, which is, I think harder in some ways than working all the time. I'm not a workaholic, I don't think. But certainly there have been costs of trying to find that work life balance and going more toward the work. But if you put them in boxes, you somehow I, I somehow feel like you'll cause a problem on both sides of that equation. I this idea of work life integration is something I've been reading about. I read a really good article by Chris Porteous recently and he was talking about work-life integration. It's impossible to balance work and life. You'll have interruptions, you'll have that, you know, over the weekend email exchange or somebody that you've got to work late hours. So on a day to day basis, finding that balance or even over a career, finding that balance I think is maybe a misnomer. I don't wanna fit those daily responsibilities into compartments, whether it's family or recreation or work that I get paid for. Uh volunteerism and, and, and it seems to build walls, I think between my own thinking, but also the people in my life, you know, the aspects of life. So I wanna take care, I wanna take care of the people. I wanna take care of the work. I want to uh work out of a sense of mission out of a sense of balance. But it, it, it's not, it's not a competition between work and life. It, it's got to be integrated, I think. And did you always have this integration mindset or is that then? Ok. I mean, ask, ask my wife Susan, I mean, I would, she tells a story of one particular day where I would walk in from work and start bossing the kids around like I was working in an office or something and she said, turn around, go out, leave the registrar and come back in, you know, it just so I relate to that because I think as a registrar in the registrars field, you know, it's there's a mix of people and data and projects and processes and I think it it's very easy for folks with that skill set, right? It's a really wide skill set to, to be end up being problem solvers and solution folks, solution minded folks, right? Because that's your skill set and it's a superpower, not everybody can, can, can do that work. Um It's a, it's a unique skill set. But I do think because folks in this field have that skill set, it's very easy to take on a lot of work or to be put on several committees or to lead a lot of strategic plans and then that just spirals, right? As you had mentioned, how when you were in those situations and I realize it's an evolving and, and I'm asking this because it's just so pertinent to me and to the audience. But when you're in those situations where maybe you, you've taken on too much or you've said yes. And it, like you said, it's doubled your time at work. But you have a commitment. How have you evaluated that process where it's, you know, everything is speaking at the same time and maybe you're not able to manage work and life both as you would wish. What did you do in those moments? How did you evaluate what something had to change? And,-- and when it felt like nothing could give, what did you do?-- I think I would typically get to a point where work took a higher priority than the needs of wife and kids. I'm embarrassed to say that, but I was being paid, part of my work was taking care of my family. And I felt like if I had created a, a box or a situation where I had too much on my plate, I had to first fulfill that responsibility, whether I had created the responsibility or somebody else had, I certainly had very compassionate bosses all through my career and I, I could go to them. I tried not to do it too much, but I could go to them and say I'm overwhelmed where the where does the priority lie right now? I could say that to Susan, but Susan was working as a coach, as a teacher, as a, as a mom and um had her own challenges to deal with. I wanted to be as supportive of that as I could. And there we looked around the college and university and saw people disappearing in the middle of the day to have a golf game or, you know, to take a nap, you know, and I just, I didn't have those kinds of opportunities. So I think difficult conversations, whether they were in the workplace or at home was the way that if there was any evaluation that was taking place, I'm not self thoughtful enough probably to anticipate some of those. And I, and I should have even in my volunteer work when I was on State Regional National Boards of Directors or executive committees, you go into that knowing that you're volunteering, you're not being paid that it's going to have a cost to do that activity. But I don't think I was very good at anticipating how much of a cost each of those had. Right. So, you know, I was in the officer track at the state level, my predecessor as president resigned in the middle of the term to take a job out of state. And so I was suddenly kind of thrust into being president and president elect and running an annual meeting, which the planning of all of that was a lot more than what I expected and no way to really, you know, somebody had to do it. I think I did a good job of drawing other people in and trying to build a team and I could certainly delegate to a certain extent. But when I went to AC O on the board of directors, three new kids on the board suddenly realized here's what we signed up on and nobody told us here's what the responsibilities were gonna be. So, one of the first things the three newbies did was we created a more detailed list of responsibilities and time commitments that if you're considering doing this count, the cost, can you handle this kind of additional work in order to do your work well, to volunteer? Well, so that people who are considering officer ships or committee memberships had a realistic idea of what the work entailed. I, I think that that was a valuable exercise for myself, but it was certainly something that I think has been valued by the associations to say, oh, thanks so much for putting this down in writing where other people can think about it. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's really, that's big and, and I think work life balance is still such a struggle and folks want to move up and want to have more exposure and want to learn. But yes, knowing the cost of what you're signing up for is, is really meaningful.-- Um-- And, and I, and I, I, I'll repeat, I think it's important to try to cultivate this idea of work life integration. It should not be a competition. And I think that what we're seeing with the great resignation, right of the last couple of years, post COVID of people wanting to be valued and wanting their home life more. But I like my work. I, you know, it's challenging, it's intellectually stimulating. Um you get, if you do it, well, you get positive strokes from other folks. You know, it's kind of egocentric in, in that way, in some ways trying to find the integration of, you know, at what point today does this take priority over that? At what point in the longer period of career, I'm not gonna give up a paying job in hopes of a better paying job without actually having it. But, you know, I'm trying to find something that's intellectually stimulating. I know that's difficult. I recently ran AAA job search for my permanent predecessor or successor uh for my current institution and they decided that they would allow somebody to work remotely because I had been fairly successful working remotely. Well, we had 375 applications. It was crazy for this small institution, small staff, but everybody's just desperate to find that thing that they think they want and not have to deal with some of the more difficult aspects of the work or the or the demand. Thank you. I was going to ask from your perspective now, you know, over the years, is there anything you think that we as institutions or supervisors managers in our realm? Is there anything that or, you know, even employees with advocation is there are there things that you think that are institutions might or should be considering to help with creating a culture of work life integration. Well, uh one example of what I did and I don't know how easily it's implemented someplace else. WNL had a more well developed professional annual assessment. So just like faculty are assessing their programs, students are being assessed for how well they got what the objectives were. You know, we set goals within the office. And then with, you know, here's, here's what we're going to accomplish in the coming year, you individually, what are you going to accomplish in the coming year toward these goals? But I always insisted that one of their individual goals was something that contributed to the community. So if you're serving your church, you're working for the United Way, you're volunteering over here, you're taking a class to improve, you know, whatever aspect of your life that had to be a goal that was not directly related to the initiatives of the university or the, the plans within the office that calendar is gonna run, run, run on its own. Anyway, you have to make time for doing something else for me. That was some volunteer work that was certainly some of the professional association work that I did. But anything, you know, that people said this is valuable to me and it's valuable to other people. I said, great, that's a great goal. But then we would assess it, you know, how much of this are you going to do? When are you going to do it? What do you hope to get out of it? Just like any other goal that people were doing? So, at least that's one small way. But, you know, I think especially with the, um, low unemployment rate, the difficulty in finding qualified, interested, engaged people these days, that institutions need to be thinking more about that. How do we honor people? How do we reward people? Maybe not necessarily in financial ways but in community ways, you know. Yes, the picnics. That's good. Um My former two of my former employers now run kind of big field days for employees and there was a recent five K run walk and everybody gets all excited and so there's health benefits and, but it's also just camaraderie and, and getting out of your offices and, and finding ways to build community. Yeah, I love that. It's, it's, uh you know, that's Gen Z, right. That's what they say that there's so much more focus in that population on that kind of engagement. Um That, that is a reward and, and I think just as human beings, you know, COVID has taught us, right, how much we need each other and miss each other honestly. So those are really great example. That's a difficulty of working remotely. Uh you know, it's a real benefit to be able to work from home to stop and have a meal with your spouse or to help with grandchild care or, you know, do something for yourself out of the ordinary. So, working remotely certainly has its benefits. But I really do miss that and we have this face to face these tools, but, you know, neck up is not the same as engaging, you know, having sitting down and having lunch together, you know, that sort of thing.-- So-- true. Uh, We are doing that over time. So I'll ask you just a few more questions. What would you say is something you're most proud of looking over at your career. What's given you a lot of pride or joy? Well, that my kids have all gone to college and I'm still married to my wife for 45 years and, but I, I think in terms of professional accomplishment, I'm, I'm very proud of the work I did for the various associations. I've been part of, I've been thrilled with the relationships again, the friendships. It's not just professional relationships. When you spend time with these folks that are engaged in good conversations and um working toward a particular goal, you really develop some wonderful friendships and as much as I don't spend time in person with those people, having the social media aspect, um, being able to touch base easily with folks is wonderful. I, I really count that as an accomplishment. If you know that it's not a resume check off, that's not something to write down. I had somebody recently call me a mensch. And you know, if, if I can make that kind of impression on a person just by treating them respectfully and creatively and, and engaged in a way that maybe they aren't seeing someplace else. Great. You know, I'm glad to do that at Washington. I was very proud of helping a successful implementation of coeducation. Really moving the needle on technology. We started an outreach to a local prison and had faculty teaching incarcerated students along with traditional full time undergraduates in the same classroom and being able to contribute to that effort, you know, working out logistics and agreements and that sort of thing. I'm just thrilled about that. So, wow, that's wonderful. And I was going to say, you know, from a professional standpoint, looking back when you're near or at the point of retirement and this is just you, right? Everyone's different. What are you evaluating when you're looking back to think about your life and how you spent your time? Maybe you could keep this if you want or you can expand it. What is that, you know, what's meaningful to you? I think it just might help those of us still on the journey to, you know, have a moment to reflect before, before we have time to, to build it in.-- You-- know, I'm, I'm not really sure. I i it's presumptive, I think to try to give too much value to your own journey, especially with that resume kind of idea. Hanging in the background. I think there's a level of satisfaction of a job well done. And if, if I hope that includes my family job as well as my work professional job, but there, there's a AAA scripture um kind of benediction if you will of, you know, well done, good and faithful servant that I, I would aspire to. So II, I think I'm close on the professional side.-- I, I hope on the personal side I'm getting there as well.-- Yeah. Well, there's, there's still plenty of time and I, I agree with you. That's the journey, right? It's the journey and the investment and, and the connections. I really think that that makes such a big difference of that. Your life and your work life has had an impact, I must say, I must say, as you approach retirement, whatever that means. I mean, for some people, retirement means, I'm going fishing, I'm sitting on the rocking chair, I'm gonna watch TV, all day, you know, not, not really. Probably, you know, I want to do my own thing, you know, I'm gonna get out on the, a tennis court or, you know, go skiing or travel more. You know, all those things occurred to me as we go along. But the planning for that, Susan and I started talking about, when are you going to retire? When are we going to retire? Really? It's a team effort and we really started about five years out, you know, that the goal ought to be about this age, but retirement didn't automatically mean we're gonna stop working. You still have to live, you still have to take care. You want to have resources to be able to do something else. And, you know, I'm so grateful for the folks that introduced me to this, helping other institutions along the way and doing consulting. I have done various levels of consulting for 30 years and usually it was go to a campus, spend two or three days kind of observe, you know, outsiders um perspective and then write it down and help people along that way. And, and really then you disconnect again, but investing yourself in that institution for a short period of time before and after you visit, you learn from them, hopefully they learn from you and I did it for large public, small, public, large and small private. I even did a couple of international trips to do consulting. And here now I am at the end of a long career and there's people who want me to continue doing this work as an interim. And I must say that the commitment I'm getting better at counting that cost in terms of being a full time interim for 69, 12 months at an institution is, is hard because you're investing all of that time trying to get to know the people, the culture, the problems, the, the strengths and pull all that together and have some kind of an accomplishment before you finish your contract. So I'm definitely at the moment kind of tapering off and doing part time and I like that better, but it's still a burden. But the work of being a consultant with on campus with a finger and so many pies, which is what registrars are anyway. Right. You're an internal consultant. You talk to lots of people solve lots of problems. You're the hub of the wheel, you're the service station, the police station, the Argo, um you know, and, and people want some who's willing to take on that role and that's when you get busier and busier. So, um I've just been so grateful from Jim Bundy, who was the NC State registrar back in the nineties. He pulled me in and said, come with me and do this consulting job and having other people challenge me along the way, you know, come with me and learn more about statistics. Come learn more about reverse transfer, you know, you know, and being able to share out of my own technological background and say, here's what I've learned, you know, I'm no expert, but here's what I've learned about. There's something called gopher, which you probably have never heard of, but it was pre world wide web, you know, and doing Twitter and doing, you know, Facebook for your professional jobs. Very different kinds of things. So, you know, having those conversations has really been uh wonderful and has led me into continuing this work, loving the people, students, faculty staff and, and the work of the intellectual challenge has been a really nice transition into a different kind of retirement and still not winning at retirement. I think, I think I need to stop this kind of work for pay at some point, but I really do like it. So I love that is there. And just as a last question for you with regards to these stretch projects, right? These stretch opportunities, what would you, what kind of tips or advice would you give folks who maybe may have those opportunities or are not sure if they should take those opportunities? Well, as we've already talked about, it's counting the cost that I think is so important for your own health and for your family's health, you need to know what you're getting into and that means asking lots of questions, maybe some hard questions talking to a variety of people, not just the people that an institution might put in front of you and say here's the job. Well, let me talk about this job with somebody else who used to do it or did it for a different institution. Let me get a real sense of what that cost is. My father-in-law talked about a time where he went into a position and he was military and then post military and he was asked to do something and he said, sure. Yeah, I can do that. He didn't have a clue. So he faked it until he made it right. I guess, fake it until you make it is the old, you can only do that a certain amount of time. You know, if you're an autodidact and you're self taught, you can pick things up along the way and you can talk to other people and now you can watch youtube videos and lots of other things to be able to help you do that but really develop, helping the people skills, developing the knowledge, look beyond yourself beyond your institution. I mean, I'm a an inveterate reader of the trade papers. If you will the Chronicle inside Higher Ed um edu cause any of those things where I can learn more about the enterprise of education, but without sacrificing in some ways, it actually increases my passion for it. So I mean, I I think we just need to be honest about our weaknesses. We need to go in and say, well, I think I can help in this situation. But here's my, here's the LACUNA and my knowledge about your institution about this issue. What else can I learn? I feel like it's incumbent on anybody who's thinking about registrar work at least to be as widely read about higher education as possible. What are the issues? Do you understand? What the whole thing about reverse transfers or badging or the new Comprehensive Learner record that's being developed. How can you contribute your ideas to that? You know, I think all of that comes into this idea of work life integration that we're expressing a passion that we have in other ways. Sometimes it helps that people want to look at your work. Sometimes it doesn't. But it's, I think always a valuable exercise, especially if we give each other a little grace and understand that we're not perfect grace is such a beautiful thing. When given this has been wonderful, Scott, is there any last thing that we haven't touched on that you want to share with the listeners or talk about?-- No, I think I think I've talked too much-- first. I want to thank you so much for joining. It's been such a pleasure. Um Thank you for sharing your life and your perspective with us. It's been extremely meaningful. Absolutely. You're welcome. Thank you. And as we honor Scott's story, I will share yet another, a small journey to remind us of being present. Once upon a time in a bustling city, there lived a woman named Clarity. She navigated the chaotic rhythm of her life, juggling work family and countless responsibilities. Her days were a whirlwind of meetings, deadlines and unexpected changes. One particularly challenging day as Clarity rushed through the crowded streets, she received a call that added another layer of complexity to her already hectic schedule, frustration and stress threatened to overwhelm her. But in the midst of the chaos, she decided to take a moment for herself. Clarity, found a quiet corner in a nearby park and sat on a bench, taking deep breaths to calm her racing mind. As she looked around, she noticed a vibrant array of flowers blooming in the small garden nearby. Intrigued. She walked over and discovered a sign that read Garden of gratitude amidst the chaos of the city. This hidden oasis reminded clarity of the beauty that could be found even in the midst of life's challenges. She decided to spend a few moments reflecting on the things she was grateful for. No matter how small she thought about the support of colleagues who helped her through tough projects. The laughter shared with her family during simple dinners and the unexpected kindness of a stranger who held the door open for her earlier that day. In that moment of reflection, clarity realized that gratitude was not reserved for perfect serene moments but could be found even in the midst of this chaos. As she left the garden, clarity carried with her, a newfound perspective. The challenges of life were still present, but she chose to focus on the threads of gratitude that ran through them. Each difficulty became an opportunity to learn and grow and every moment, no matter how chaotic held the potential for joy. From that day forward, clarity made it a habit to seek out moments of gratitude in the midst of life's chaos. She discovered that a grateful heart was not only a source of strength but also a beacon of light that could illuminate even the darkest of days. And so in the tapestry of her busy life, gratitude became the thread that added warmth and color to the intricate design of her journey. Let us remember in the chaos of life, find gratitude in the simple moments for they are the threads that weave a tapestry of resilience and joy. Gratitude is not absent of challenges, but the recognition that even amid chaos, there are blessings waiting to be discovered as we step into the holiday season. It's an opportunity to practice and strengthen setting healthy boundaries and infusing mindfulness into our words and intentions for those facing challenges, stress or simply desiring more intentional living. Check out the show notes for a video on creating space within yourself for conscious reactions and understanding, especially when angry or frustrated. There are also links to articles about work-life integration and how taking vacation and time off improves your well being. The show notes also include tips and resources for navigating the holiday and consider this a gentle nudge, especially for those like myself who have used holidays to catch up on work this year. Let's break that cycle. Invest in yourself, take time off, decompress step away. This time is for you to have fun, to nap, to indulge in small joys, to envision what you want to create for yourself and your loved ones in the future. Remember work will always be there but stepping away allows for new thoughts and reflections and space for those new insights which are invaluable in the trajectory of your life's fulfillment. And now as we close, I offer you an affirmation. I honor the balance between my work and personal life. As I engage in meaningful work, I also prioritize time for my self care and cherish memories with loved ones and with myself, my well being is a priority and I create harmony by setting boundaries, by embracing breaks and by nurturing a life that fulfills both my professional and my personal aspirations. Today, I affirm that balance is key and I am deserving of a fulfilling work, life harmony friends. This is Sarah Reed signing off for the record. May you wrap yourself in the warmth of your dreams this holiday season? Let the joy that is you sparkle ever so brightly. May your days be enchanted and until our next mystical encounter take exquisite care of the magical soul that is you.