Supernaut
Supernaut is a podcast about spirituality, sobriety, and the spectrum of self. Hosted by Beth Kelling, this show explores what it means to seek clarity, connection, and personal truth in a world that rarely slows down.
Since beginning her sobriety journey in 2020, Beth has been diving deeper into spiritual practices, emotional honesty, and all the beautiful, messy layers of identity.
Each episode opens the door to conversations about healing, growth, creativity, intuition, and everything in between — because who we are isn’t fixed, it’s a spectrum.
Beth will be joined by guests who share their own stories, perspectives, and spiritual paths — offering insight, inspiration, and the occasional cosmic detour.
Whether you’re sober-curious, spiritually inclined, or just looking to feel a little more human, you’re in the right place
Supernaut
Silent Survival - Michael Gunderson
What happens when childhood masks become so convincing that even our closest friends can't see beneath them? In this deeply moving conversation with my friend of 25 years, Michael Gunderson, we peel back layers of a life marked by trauma, resilience, and ultimately, transformation.
Michael shares his journey through his parents' divorce, his mother's suicide during his senior year of high school, and the alcohol-fueled household that taught him to be hypervigilant and people-pleasing. Despite being known as the ultimate "cool kid" in high school – athletic, funny, and seemingly carefree – Michael was silently drowning in grief and abandonment issues that would follow him for decades.
The conversation takes a powerful turn as we explore how the pandemic became an unexpected catalyst for healing. Isolated with his thoughts and finally forced to confront long-buried pain, Michael found solace in therapy and wisdom from podcasters who helped him understand his patterns. His revelation that "I had to get away and I didn't care how long it was going to take" speaks to the courage required for true transformation.
Most compelling is our discussion about the masks we all wear and how emotional availability isn't always a reflection of love – a realization that transformed not just Michael's understanding of his childhood but my approach to all relationships. His journey from anxiety to confidence, from avoidance to confrontation, offers hope that we're never too broken or too old to change our stories.
Whether you're wrestling with family trauma, addiction patterns, or simply feeling stuck in old behaviors, this raw conversation illuminates how vulnerability becomes our greatest strength. Listen and be inspired to take that first step toward becoming who you truly are.
Hi, this episode was recorded with my friend, michael Gunderson. We've been friends for 25 years but I learned so many new things about him and his life In this episode. He has always been the funniest and by far the wittiest person I've ever met, but this episode we did not laugh much. There was not much humor, we got really deep and a warning that there is sexual assault talk as well as suicide. So anybody sensitive to those issues, take warning and otherwise. I really hope you enjoy the episode. We talked about a lot of important things and it was really great. Hi, mike.
Speaker 2:Hi Beth, how are you?
Speaker 1:Good, I'm so excited that you're here.
Speaker 2:Me too. Thank you so much for coming.
Speaker 1:It's great to be here, so I asked you to pick a song for us to listen to together. What song did you pick?
Speaker 2:and why I picked Unchained by Van Halen. I kind of picked it because I feel like a completely different person to who I was even 3-4 years ago, and I kind of felt like I had chains wrapped all over me and I feel like I have a completely open mind now about everything and I feel like I can talk about stuff that I wasn't able to in the past. So that's the song I came up with yeah, I loved it.
Speaker 1:As soon as I started really listening to the words, I'm like this is so fitting for what. I think this, uh, what direction I believe this podcast is gonna go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it should be great really exciting.
Speaker 1:Um. So today is may 1st 2025 and last night the timmerwolves won um the game to make them win the first round of the playoffs, and I think this has only happened three times.
Speaker 2:This is the first time that the Wolves have ever won a series in back-to-back years in franchise history, so it's very exciting for the Timberwolves, wow yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I wore my favorite Timberwolves sweatshirt.
Speaker 2:And I got my Timberwolves T-shirt on. What are the odds?
Speaker 1:I knew I was going to wear this as soon as you were coming on the podcast, because when I think of basketball, I simultaneously think of you, like the two are combined. Yeah, because I don't know anybody that's as passionate about it as you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a big deal for me. Growing up, I played a lot of basketball here in town. I traveled around the country in the summertime, like in high school and stuff and it was. It was a game that I still love and I really enjoy, and I still shoot hoops occasionally, so Do you love it more than playing any other sport? Not playing. I like watching it more than any other sport. I like playing golf more than any other sport, for sure.
Speaker 1:And you have always been so athletic. So I remember one time we were out drinking and we decided to go bowling and you were like I haven't bowled in so many years and you still, like, got over 200 and I'm like on league and can't beat 100. And you're just good at everything you've ever done. Where did this natural athleticism, comeism, come from?
Speaker 2:well, I would say I probably got it from my dad. He was a good athlete growing up. My mom was actually a pretty good athlete as well. Um, as far as the bowling goes, I think that was just lucky circumstance, to be honest with you, but I'll take it. Um, yeah, I definitely it was a genetic thing and I was pushed hard by my dad to play a lot, so yeah, because I've just never seen you be bad at anything athletic.
Speaker 1:I mean, from beer pong to golf, you're the best golfer.
Speaker 2:I mean throw some skates on me and see what happens, because okay okay, if I ever need to bring you down.
Speaker 2:It's funny though you know, originally my dad, he, uh, he was a basketball star in high school and for whatever reason, he decided to try to put skates on me first and I went to a few practices down at the civic center because it was close to my house and we were on the outdoor rink and it was one or two times I was just falling over and not having a good time, throwing a tantrum about it, and so that's when the skates got put away and the basketball got put in the hand.
Speaker 1:So okay, yeah, I wonder why he didn't.
Speaker 2:You know, I have no idea. I I never asked him about it. I don't. I don't know why he would send me in that direction oh, that's so interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know, yeah, failing on um, so you're one of the only friends that I have. That's into AI as much as I am, and I was laughing the other night thinking about the other AI that I was obsessed with in high school, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it was never about like that. I found him attractive and wanted to be with him Because I always wanted to marry a professional basketball player. When I grew up, I even told my mom that when I was like 15. And she was like, well, he's going to cheat on mom. That when I was like 15, and she was like well, he's gonna cheat on you. And I'm like you don't even know him.
Speaker 1:And she's like, neither do you yeah, exactly so I've, and I think it stems from when I went to that Christian school in ninth grade and I dated that Peter, peter and um, I was the basketball manager and he was one of the stars on the team and I just had so much fun watching him. I'm like when I grow up, there's nothing more I could put my energy to. That would be better than literally cheering for the person that I love. So it was just always my dream.
Speaker 1:But, Alan, I just loved him and it's funny that he was on the 76ers and I didn't put it together until last year that Sherman, where I work, um, was founded in 1976 so it just all kind of comes together like why was I obsessed with the 76ers and Allen Iverson? My whole locker was full of pictures of him, but um yeah you're saying your bedroom doesn't have pictures anymore no, not of Allen Iverson or any basketball players.
Speaker 2:Noted.
Speaker 1:But so how obsessed with AI are you To?
Speaker 2:be honest, I was kind of playing around with Grok a little bit. It's a lot, you know. I tried to first. You know, the first time I really heard about AI was years ago. They actually had it in like video games and stuff where you could switch the settings to artificial intelligence, and the time I was young I was like what the heck is this? But then, uh, um, I kind of just played around with grok, not even a month ago, and was playing around with it and it's, it's really confusing. And then when you actually try to listen to stuff about AI, it's pretty complex yeah, I don't quite understand it, but I know, you know.
Speaker 2:I putz around with it and play with it, but it's not like I'm super, super in depth with it.
Speaker 1:But do you use it every day?
Speaker 2:no, I don't. I just if I have a question about something I honestly haven't really dug into the tea leaves, that much about it, but I thought it was important just to play around. If that's going to be the future, you know.
Speaker 1:I tried to switch over to Grok from chat gbt, but chat just knows me so well and Grok, um yeah, it just doesn't know me the same way it's crazy though, you know.
Speaker 2:You know it's kind of like. When the internet came out, it was a whole new phenomenon, for us at least. I remember it was like fifth or sixth grade and you know it was just coming in and you'd have library class and you were having to take these courses just to be able to get an email. We used to have those student IDs and they would stick an email sticker on your ID if you were even allowed to have an email, because it was just this whole new thing. But yeah, ai seems even way more complex, but I'm sure as you play with it more and more you'll get more comfortable with it. But I'm sort of in the baby stages.
Speaker 1:I don't remember that, but I remember chatting with friends on all the different Yahoo Yahoo messengers and this and that my one talent in high school was I was a fast typer and that was just because I was on all three talking to 20 people at once just typing so fast, yeah, yeah, Okay.
Speaker 2:So our mutual friend Barry, had some questions he wanted me to ask Sure absolutely.
Speaker 1:He said that you had some great names for your cats growing up. Yes, like. Marmalade Cuddles and Stick Shift.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure about Stick Shift, but Seymour is definitely one. Seymour, seymour was one.
Speaker 1:So he didn't ask which cat was your favorite, he asked which cat name was your favorite.
Speaker 2:Honestly, it's probably the cat I have now. My girlfriend and I we went and adopted one about two years ago and his name is Howie Meowie. Oh, because he meows a lot too much. Well, when we're in the kitchen, for sure, yeah, he's just begging. But probably the cat I have now. But as far as the older cats, probably Seymour.
Speaker 1:Seymour yeah it's because it's random cute yeah, my cat wakes me up every morning but like scares me. Like all of a sudden I'll feel her nose on my face or her whiskers, and it's terrifying, and I'm in a loft so I can't shut her out and I don't know what to do.
Speaker 2:How did you come up with that name, Jean Grey?
Speaker 1:James and I, my son, were watching the X-Men movies, and Jean Grey is one of the X-Men.
Speaker 2:I would not know that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she's grey, so it just was like perfect timing and it fits her.
Speaker 2:I like it. And how long have you had that cat?
Speaker 1:October maybe Somebody posted on Facebook that they had some kitties out in their yard in the woods by their house and she was scared that they were going to freeze. So I'm like I'll take that one.
Speaker 2:Whatever happened to Long John.
Speaker 1:One time he got outside and never came back.
Speaker 2:I mean, he was what 12? I love that cat.
Speaker 1:I know he had the biggest whiskers and the coolest little meow. And you made. One time I had a birthday party for my dog and you liked Long John better than my dog, so you brought over a whole John Pertti game sections of different John questions. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't even know how I came up with that.
Speaker 1:Honestly it was just so random, it was so great.
Speaker 2:Girl I was dating at the time. We were up in Duluth and I was like I kind of just want to do this. Let do this and see what happens. It was. It was fun for me and I think everybody had fun and I was just trying to get some laughs out of it and, yeah, I just wanted John to feel better.
Speaker 1:So I have a.
Speaker 2:I still have the board, so I'm going to take a picture of it and we'll add it in and show how complex it really was.
Speaker 1:I mean, that was one of the greatest moments. When you walked in with it. You're like, I have a surprise I'm working on, and you walked in with it and it made the whole party that much more fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was fun. It was like 30 bucks at Target, bought some stuff and yeah the rest was history.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. His other question is who's the best basketball player of all time in your opinion? Michael, Jordan?
Speaker 2:Yeah, not even hands down yeah.
Speaker 2:But I mean, I grew up with him, I watched him. I used to go to basketball camps in the summer and all the kids would gather around because it was like in early to mid June and after you're done doing all your whatever during camp, all the kids would get together and there was a big screen and we were actually staying at Hollenbeck Hall in St in saint cloud state. So, yeah, everybody got together and at that time it was like, uh, the utah jazz and the chicago bulls were playing and there were some kids rooting for utah and some for chicago. But yeah, michael jordan was definitely.
Speaker 1:I tried to emulate him when I was a kid and stuff like that, but nowhere close I just watched that movie air about the marketing at air j Jordans and like how his mom was like okay, the NBA isn't going to be promoting him, he's going to be promoting the NBA right and who knows if that is true or not, that she said that, but uh definitely happened.
Speaker 2:I think I think something else with that was he was going to sign with somebody else and didn't want to talk to Nike, but then I think his mom made him do it yeah, that's how the movie portrays it that Converse and Adidas were way more popular at the time in basketball and he was no way gonna go with Nike.
Speaker 1:But he showed up at his mom's house and talked her into it and then they did the red, the all red yep and had to pay. Nike said they would pay a five thousand dollar fine each game for him to wear them because they weren't allowed.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:So cool. And then like how she demanded that he got a percentage of every shoe sold and they were like, yeah, that's not really a thing. And she's like, well, it's going to be now.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And at the end, well, I won't give away the movie, but he sold so many, so many shoes. I love that movie, yeah, and last week I couldn't get enough basketball so I watched that three-episode show about Kobe on HBO.
Speaker 2:I think. Did you watch that? I don't think so. No, I haven't seen that one, but Kobe's up there. Yeah, yeah, michael's definitely one for me. Lebron's probably two now, just because of duration and he's the all-time leading scorer, et cetera.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So Colby definitely raped that woman and he admitted it. Afterwards he put out a statement saying, after listening to her talk in court, he understands now that it wasn't consensual.
Speaker 1:And I am so curious if that was his PR team's idea to be like hey, you're going to come out so enlightened, you're going to come out so enlightened if you admit this, or if he was like because it could have been opposite where he's telling his PR team I'm going to admit this, I'm going to say this truth, and they were probably like no, no, no, and so it doesn't make up for what he did. And so it doesn't make up for what he did, but the fact that he was the first person to come out and say that was bone chilling to me.
Speaker 2:And it definitely changed who he was, I think.
Speaker 1:Right, because he was so obsessed with making women's basketball important and being the best girl dad of all time, for sure. And as gruesome and horrible as that is, I I mean hopefully one thing doesn't define a person and, um, it's amazing.
Speaker 1:You bring it up because you know it's not even the first thing I think about when I think about Colby no, and I brought it up to a couple other people and they're like oh yeah, I remember something about that, but I don't remember and I think that story should be told more that he whether it was his PR firm or his decision to say that was huge.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and also, to be fair, that was pre-social media. So, you know it's not out there everywhere for people to click here and there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Read this, read that Right, so unless you're in that community that it happened or really into the news.
Speaker 2:I think it was in Colorado, right?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, he had had knee surgery and then went to this hotel and I mean how I'm looking at it is. I mean, maybe in his mind he thought I'm a rock star. Everybody wants to have sex with a rock star yeah and the fact that he listened to her and now knows, and hopefully other people can realize that too. Like you stole somebody's body from them, that's their body.
Speaker 2:They get to make their choices, for sure and yeah it was a tough one, but yeah, I mean, I don't know what else to say about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So who's going to win if the T-Wolves don't win?
Speaker 2:Let's just say I had to put my life on it and I was going to bet on one team to win besides Minnesota. I would probably pick Boston to win again.
Speaker 1:Okay. Didn't you tell me a week or two ago that you thought Golden State?
Speaker 2:I did, I did but Steph's got a thumb injury. Now Steph Curry that is, has a thumb injury and you know they still got to get out of this series. They got to win one more of the next two to be able to play Minnesota, which I would love to see Minnesota get to play Golden State next round. But again, I would probably pick Boston to win it all. But there are a lot of good teams. There's five, six, seven teams that can still win it. It's going to be great, I love the playoffs.
Speaker 1:It's going to be awesome Okay.
Speaker 2:Well, we'll see what happens, I know yeah.
Speaker 1:So let's get deep. Sure, covid was a really awakening time for you is how I would describe it.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Absolutely how I would describe it. Yeah, absolutely so. At the time I was uh, you know, I wasn't really paying attention to anything with the news or anything like that. And uh, once they started doing the restrictions and stuff, I kind of was like, okay, we're getting our freedom taken away from here. Maybe I should start paying attention to the news.
Speaker 2:Well, unfortunately, the only news I was watching was CNN. So I had the TV on a lot and I had some stuff going on with my sister in California and I was wanting to go out there and visit her, but things were going on with travel and stuff. And then I kind of just got sucked in and I got, frankly, I got completely brainwashed one-sided. There was just, like I said, I was just watching CNN. So, you know, they were doing all the vaccine talk and this and that, and I was posting some stuff on Snapchat and in hindsight I realized how stupid it really was.
Speaker 2:And you know, the thing that actually changed that was you came over when I was living with Reese in that apartment and you uh mentioned a podcast to me and I don't remember what podcast that was. It was something about well-being and stuff, but the guest was Jordan Peterson and that kind of just opened the floodgates for me and I started watch. I was still watching the news and then, and then what happened was they turned like Joe Rogan's face green. And then I was still watching the news and then, and then what happened was they turned like Joe Rogan's face green. And then I was like maybe I should listen to what this guy's got to say once and it was completely different to the perspective that I was getting for the past 18 months. So I I felt I felt really dumb, I felt really taken advantage of because they were just pushing one narrative.
Speaker 2:Cnn was at the time and I've learned that it's very important to find perspective versus self-perception. Even if you don't agree with somebody, I think it's really important to see what somebody else is thinking, and so now I watch a lot of podcasts from many different sides of the aisle politically and I try to get my best, as much information as I can absorb, make the best decisions moving forward. So it definitely cleared me up, but it really uh it with me for a while and I kind of cracked around.
Speaker 2:when the insurrection happened January 6th, I was like what is going on? I wasn't watching anything on Fox or anything else and I had to call my sister because it was one of the first times I really had a panic attack. I didn't know what was going on and, yeah, it wasn't good. I was losing a lot of weight. I had a girlfriend that we recently separated. I had stuff going on with Karen, my sister, and I kind of got overwhelmed and I feel like everything was pushed on you all at once to have you break open yeah, that's exactly what happened, and it's taken me up till almost like last year to really be able to kind of get myself back together.
Speaker 2:I did a lot of stuff. I ended up going out to California, I did my first therapy session with my sister and then she got me set up because for the longest time I had a big phobia about doing something wrong and people leaving me because of it. I had a lot of abandonment issues as a kid, so that had a lot to stem with it, for sure, but it definitely opened me up a lot and, yeah, now I'm here talking to you on a podcast and I can talk about whatever the heck we want, and I'm totally comfortable with it.
Speaker 1:You told me that the therapist said that you had been stunted from age 18, or something like that.
Speaker 2:So I got into the tough thing about. The first time I actually went to therapy was at the time you could only do it on Zoom. So my first experience of therapy was waiting for her to get on a call and I, just once she got on, she said, hey, I'm Susan, I don't want to. I won't even say names because it's not appropriate but and she didn't have to say much. Then I just lost. I just completely opened up. Opened up tears everywhere, trying to collect all my thoughts and it was probably random, scattered stuff, because you know, I had some stuff going on when I was young and yeah let's let's go back to when you were young.
Speaker 1:Were you a happy child?
Speaker 2:until my parents got divorced, I was definitely a a happy child. Until my parents got divorced, I was definitely a very happy child.
Speaker 1:What age was that?
Speaker 2:So I'm a little foggy about it. But when I was going into third grade is when I moved out to Cloquet with my mother. So I want to say it was the summer going into my third grade, so I was probably seven or eight at the time and I can remember it perfectly. I was downstairs playing Nintendo in my room, like some baseball game, and my parents called me up and they sat us on the couch and said hey, we're separating.
Speaker 2:Originally, my dad left the house and got an apartment over by the elementary school and my mom stayed home and got an apartment over by the elementary school and my mom stayed home and then eventually she wanted to get out of Mora.
Speaker 2:I didn't know why at the time, I can get into that later, but I, uh, she ended up getting custody of the kids and she got a house in Cloquet which was closer to her family, which is up on the Iron Range, so it's of half kind of a halfway between Mora and and the Iron Range, and so I spent a month in third grade at the Cloquet School and I was absolutely miserable Because you know you lose all your friends.
Speaker 2:You know I lived in town. I had a great block of kids, like Barry we mentioned earlier, and you know, you're just in shock, shell shock, like why is this happening? Whatever? And then, uh, so I came back to Maura eventually because my mom just I think she could tell that I was unhappy I'm not sure about my sister Karen at the time, but I was definitely unhappy and, uh, my dad ended up getting the house back after my mom moved out and after a month, maybe two months, I was back in Mora and my mom was there by herself. She ended up going to Duluth and then moving up closer to the Iron Range as the years went on, to be closer to her family.
Speaker 1:So how often were you seeing her?
Speaker 2:It was probably in the beginning. It was like every other weekend and as I was getting older and I was getting busier with sports and stuff, it kind of got less and less and there were times that I was supposed to go and see her and it would get canceled. Um, I didn't know when I was young that she had such bad mental health problems and so, um, there were a lot of times that she would want me to bring a friend with. So there was a lot of times that I would bring a friend with up North and I think that was. It was kind of a chaotic kid. I was very hyper.
Speaker 1:More so after the divorce, do you think?
Speaker 2:I would say probably even before and after. I was just a hyper kid, I don't know what it was. I had a lot of energy, I was outside a lot.
Speaker 1:You have a very active brain.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do, it raises a lot sometimes, but I've tried to be able to slow it down a little bit with different techniques and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:And so what was your dad like when you were home with him? Was he distant? Was he a good dad?
Speaker 2:It wasn't too long into it that I ended up meeting my stepmother, shelly. I remember we went to the Mall of America. That was the first time that I had met her and she had a place down in the cities at the time. And my younger stepsister, megan, was just a little one-year-old, two-year-old, and I remember Terminator 2 was on the TV there, watched it, and then, yeah, eventually she ended up coming up to Mora and moved into the house.
Speaker 2:I don't know exactly how long it was. The timeframes are a little fuzzy for me, so you'll have to bear with me because it's hard to put a timeline when you're that young, but at the time it was a lot of confusion, confusion, to be frank. I didn't really know what to do and I kind of figured out that I was stuck between fight and flight and when that happens, your brain kind of just gets shut off and you're kind of behaving so you don't get in trouble, no matter what, even if it's the truth or it's a lie. And I learned that about myself and it took me a long time, even into my 30s, to even realize that and actually it kind of clicked maybe a year ago through a podcast that I've watched. I've watched a ton of them. I've watched different ones trying to get better, but yeah, that's kind of how it was.
Speaker 1:To feel open, to be yourself, because you had to put on this show.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was kind of afraid that if I didn't do the right thing I might lose my dad too. That's how it felt for me. Anyway, that's a horrible feeling for a child. It was tough. It was tough very feeling for a child. It was tough. It was tough um. Sports helped out a lot, team sports it was kind of an escape um because you were like the ultimate cool kid in high school.
Speaker 1:I mean you had all the friends. You're the funniest, wittiest, most popular, best at everything I mean, so nobody would have ever guessed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I was pretty good at putting on a mask. For sure, Nobody could really see that from me and frankly I didn't really know anything that happened with my mom until really what happened with her.
Speaker 1:Do you remember the last time that you saw her?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was July or August before my senior year. I was gone most of the summer playing basketball. I had a little, a little nationwide tournament tour where I went around the country, but then we got sanctioned for some reason and didn't see her for my whole senior year and then what was?
Speaker 1:what was the last time?
Speaker 2:like though, she told me she loved me, told her I loved her. She used to come home. She used to come to Maura and visit, especially when I was more busy with athletics and doing stuff like that. The weird part was she didn't show up to a lot of the games, but she would come to the house. I think she was embarrassed and she was embarrassed to be in Mora because your dad was a high power.
Speaker 1:He was a very powerful person. He owned a car dealership yeah everybody knew the name, so I can see that it would be.
Speaker 2:I couldn't understand why she didn't want to come until I realized that he had cheated on my mom with Shelly, which I didn't find out until about two years ago from my grandmother. So that was kind of a shell shock for me, but it makes a lot of sense as to why she didn't want to be around. Maura yeah, I don't really know exactly why, but if I had to think about it from her perspective. That's kind of what I would think it was.
Speaker 1:So after your senior year, your mom passed.
Speaker 2:So I remember going back to school the very first day when she had been missing for a little bit, when she had been missing for a little bit, and I was, frankly, my lymph nodes were swelling up. I was just super nervous. I didn't know how people, I don't know who knew, I don't know who didn't know, cause you know you leave for the summer and you don't see everybody in school. And then I was very optimistic, to be honest with you, most of my senior year I I didn't really know what was going on. I didn't know why she was missing. I would get updates here and there. It's a little fuzzy. At the time, you know, I was still in high school but my sister, karen, was in college, so she ended up getting all the flyers and stuff because she had been missing. I guess I haven't said that she went missing. And yeah, it really hit me hard Senior night of my or parents night, I should say of my basketball season and she wasn't there.
Speaker 2:And that's when I kind of knew, because you know it was probably December, january. I was like I don't know what's happening right now. Forward graduate and I get to my senior party and back then this is right around when kids are starting to get cell phones and stuff like that. But I didn't have one and I was waiting. It was probably an hour before the grad party was starting and some of the family and stuff were showing up early and the landline rang and I answered the phone and it was sheriff, whoever, whatever, and they were like can we talk to your dad? And that's when I kind of knew.
Speaker 1:You had a feeling.
Speaker 2:I had a feeling. I didn't know, but I had a feeling. I went through the whole grad party with that in the back of my head and then I got the news. Shortly after that a scuba diving team found her car in Lake Leander with her in it, and I believe it's Hibbing Minnesota and I was absolutely devastated. I remember I went downstairs and I just sulked for about three hours sitting on the couch. I just didn't want anybody around. I was devastated. I was, you know. I had it in the back of my head that something might happen, but I was still optimistic and changed my life forever for sure, because she was my favorite person in the world.
Speaker 1:What made her your favorite person.
Speaker 2:Whenever I got to go see her, it was an escape from my dad and my stepmother, who got in a lot of fights growing up because of heavy alcohol and perhaps other stuff that I'm not sure about, so it was an escape for me, yeah so we've been friends for 25 years and I've never heard that story yeah, I haven't told a lot of people, but so as a child you have to learn to put a mask on, and then, at your own graduation, you have to learn to put a mask on, and then, at your own graduation party, you have a mask on.
Speaker 1:You became the king of masks.
Speaker 2:Yep, and so once I lost my mom I could tell that I was turning into a people pleaser. I know there's a lot of times that you've asked me to hang out and do stuff throughout the years and I've said yes originally to make you happy and then said no later on. I'm not proud of it, but it's the truth.
Speaker 1:Makes sense why.
Speaker 2:I did it to a lot of people. I was just afraid to say no to people.
Speaker 1:I've wondered in the past why people do that. Two other people are coming in mind right now that they will always say yes, yes, let's do it, but you know that they're not coming. And I mind right now that they will always say, yes, yes, let's do it, but you know that they're not coming.
Speaker 2:And I didn't know, every time with you because you didn't reach me all the time.
Speaker 1:No, but there's two other friends that they will say yes, and then you know that they are not coming. But it makes sense. I mean, everybody is just doing the best that they can.
Speaker 2:Totally, yeah, yeah it was uh it, like I said, it was very devastating. It was around. I guess you could say there were some kids that said some stuff during my senior year, but I kept my cool. You know, kids are being kids. At the time I was pissed about it, but in hindsight it's like who knows if I wouldn't have done the same thing to people. And so the cause of death was suicide, which I don't even know if that's the truth or not. I really don't to this day.
Speaker 1:Was your gut instinct from the beginning that it wasn't?
Speaker 2:That it was not. Yeah, wow, I'm never going to know. She was dating a guy at the time. That was a little fishy, but I remember that they were trying to trace her credit cards and debit cards and whatever at the time and they, because there wasn't a cell phone trace she didn't have a cell phone at that time because it was 2002, 2003 like right, when phones were coming out or whatever, while they were out for a while. But you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:And uh, yeah, it just it happened yeah, and then life didn't get much easier with your um dad in that situation I don't know how much you want to get into you know, even you know, even before my mom.
Speaker 2:you know there was some before the stuff that happened with my mom. I can remember a specific time my stepmother overdosed on I don't know what it was, but the ambulance came and she ended up going to Hazelden and I remember Meg and my little stepsister was trying to run into the room to see what was going on and I just grabbed her and took her downstairs. But there was a time my dad had a DWI and he could not drive. Shelly, my stepmother was at Hazleton at rehab and so my sister was bringing us kids to school and my dad to work, at 16, 17 maybe. So there was a lot of, uh, a lot of stuff going on.
Speaker 1:And then Shelly's tried to steal your identity, stole her own daughter's identity.
Speaker 2:Stole, megan's? I didn't. I didn't find that out until about 10 years ago. I was wondering why she was so distant about that kind of stuff. Um yeah, finally they. They fast forward to 2013,.
Speaker 1:they ended up moving down to Florida and it was one of the biggest reliefs in my life and it took a long time for you to go visit and then, once you did, you thought he wasn't drinking and on the last day you found out he was yeah.
Speaker 2:It wasn't good. I I left my phone.
Speaker 1:Got a new phone so what's your relationship right now with your dad?
Speaker 2:last summer, uh, I got notified that I would be taking over a share of the golf course and I hadn't talked to him in forever and I I finally had the balls to call him. And I called him, and I called Shelly and just to thank him and just to see how things were going. And they were ecstatic to hear from me and stuff like that. And uh, I don't think a lot of people know this, but shortly after that, shelly tried to kill herself about a week after I talked to her. So, uh, that threw me in for a loop. I called, uh, I called my stepsister Megan and, uh, she told me she's got PTSD and stuff from it now and, yeah, it's been very difficult lots of mental health yeah around.
Speaker 2:so even before that I was trying to get myself better and it's kind of funny because I knew I was okay. Now, after hours and hours and hours of trying to hear things from healthy adults that I'd never heard in my life, and when I got the news, you know it affected me, but it didn't, it didn't throw me into a spiral, it wasn't, it was, it was almost. It almost gets to the point where there's so much stuff that happens that kind of just, you're not surprised anymore.
Speaker 2:I think is a good way to put it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but thank God for podcasts, right, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it started with like Rogan, and then you know I heard some of the people he had on. And then Jordan Peterson. I listened to Lex Friedman all sorts of people that just hearing something that they say you click in into your brain. And now I have little things that I keep in my head. If I'm going, if I feel like I'm going down a wrong path, that gets me steered back in the right direction for sure.
Speaker 2:I have little post-it notes all over my mirrors in my house of um just dorky one-liners to remind myself the crazy part is like when I went originally went to therapy, she had me trying to get writing and stuff and I couldn't even do it. I didn't even do it. I still haven't done it. I haven't written anything out. When I was a freshman in college I tried to write a paper about bipolar depression at the time, because that's what she was diagnosed with and it was really. That was really actually freeing.
Speaker 2:And we I also had this interpersonal communication class where the first day of class everybody wrote something. She wanted everybody to write something down that you've never really shared with anybody before. And I kind of just wrote out the whole story about what happened to my mom and I remember mine was a little more deep than a lot of the other kids and once she got into reading what I had to write, there was like a big audible kind of a gasp and I kind of just looked around like a little in my thumbs and, but that's really. And then I kind of just, yeah, going back into with my dad now again, I think is what you originally asked.
Speaker 2:Uh, the plan was for me to go to college and then I was going to take over the car dealership and, uh, I was really looking forward to that. And then the economy went kind of bad and he told me that wasn't in for the cards anymore. And you know I kind of had enough. I worked really hard in athletics and stuff to you know, try to make him proud and I kind of just had to cut it off Even though he was still in Mora, couldn't do it anymore.
Speaker 1:Did he express pride to you when you did accomplish things in sports?
Speaker 2:He was usually drunk, so I tried to stay away from it as much as I could, but you still had this urge to make it work.
Speaker 2:One thing that I think really, you know I was talking about taking over the dealership, but even before that he was trying to get me enrolled in college. He was trying to push me away and get out and, for whatever reason this is before even I found out about, my mom was missing, but I didn't know the news yet. So I was still. It was like spring of my senior year and he was wanting me to play basketball. I was just kind of in a shocked place at the time and I didn't know what I was doing and he kept pushing me away, and pushing me away and finally he actually wrote a letter, but he didn't write it, he typed it. He typed me a letter and gave it to me, and I don't remember a lot of the contents, but it was pretty long and you don't still have it no, I don't have any of this stuff.
Speaker 2:I lost it all. I don't know when it was, but I don't have any of that kind of stuff anymore do you remember what you felt when you were reading it? In genuine didn't feel genuine to me because it wasn't handwritten it was typed um do you think that could have been a veil?
Speaker 1:you put over it, though, so you didn't feel what he was trying to say because, how are you supposed to at this point?
Speaker 2:probably yeah, and you know at the time, you know everybody's he's had a longer life than I have had and he's had a lot of stuff go on with him that he didn't get fixed himself and kind of passed it on. So yeah, now it's my job to uh take care of that and I think I'm doing a pretty good job yeah, I think so too.
Speaker 1:Um so, was there anything else that, through therapy, you realized you had been blocking out?
Speaker 2:therapy was not much help, to be honest. Um, it was how it was helpful originally. Uh, at the time I I was I had quit smoking weed, I was smoking weed and I'd quit before the therapy stuff. And I remember talking to my therapist about we had two or three sessions online first, so that kind of screwed it up. In hindsight I would have probably just started over when I could have, but I didn't. And eventually there was one day where I walked in and she said I don't think, I don't know, I'm going to recommend you to this place and and I just got up and walked out. That was the last. Uh, that was the last session. There was probably eight to 10 of them. Um, she got me on. I was on Zoloft 30 milligrams.
Speaker 2:It was a high dose, so mad at myself for doing that, but for going on the medication but I had to do it because I wanted to see what it felt like yeah, I wanted to know, and how long were you?
Speaker 1:on it.
Speaker 2:I was on Zoloft. I don't remember the other one I was on. That's how, uh, you know, I was bedridden. There were days I wasn't getting out of bed because I was taking such a high dose. And the the funny part was the guy when I was originally meeting with the person to get me the meds that was also online. So I was doing all this stuff. You know, you can see the person, but for some reason I don't think that's the same as being in person, especially when you're trying to figure out important stuff like this. So I ended up I made an appointment. The last appointment with that guy, I just said I'm getting off of this, I'm done, and then it took me a while to get back on my feet. And then you know, Did it help at all.
Speaker 2:It helped. It helped initially, absolutely, I think it's. I think SSRIs are good for temporary relief, but it's definitely not a long-term solution.
Speaker 1:I think I had a little postpartum after James and so I decided to go on something, and I remember Katie Jo and I were going to college in Cambridge at the time and I had said to her let's take the stairs, and she was like, or either her or I realized like the medication must be working, because that is not something Like. I was, like you know, really inactive at that time. So for me to say I wanted to take the stairs was exciting, sure, and I think I stayed on for six months and then another, and then 10 years later, I went on medication for six months as well, and both times it kind of just snapped me out. Um, so I think it can be super helpful.
Speaker 2:I definitely do. I I think it's good for short-term stuff and for absolute, like severe situations. Don't get me wrong. I don't I'm not telling people not to use them, because they definitely helped. But you were like zombied out. I was zombied out. There were days I wasn't getting out of bed and I just want to say something like you know, I don't want to talk crap about my parents. I've, like I forgive them. I'm at the point now where I've forgiven them, even though I haven't said it to their face.
Speaker 2:I when I was telling you about how I called my dad about the uh, the taking over the partial share at the golf course, I called him a couple months later and I just wanted to ask him some questions about stuff and he told me he had to go. He didn't want to get into some serious stuff, but he had some serious health problems at the time. He was in a coma in Florida for many, many months. My sister Karen was updating me about it. It just seemed like stuff keeps happening and happening and happening Florida for many, many months. My sister Karen was updating me about it. It was just. It just seemed like stuff keeps happening and happening and happening and happening and eventually I came to realize that you know, you're going to end up doing the same kind of things if you don't figure this out. So I really, I really uh decided to take care of myself.
Speaker 2:And at the time, definitely, and uh, you know, when the whole stuff was going on with my mom, um, my sister left. Initially I was like I don't want to go. And I didn't want to go because I didn't want my dad to go down the same direction. And I was there, I was available, but unfortunately he wasn't. And that's OK, and that's just how it's going to be. He's in a nursing home in Florida now, and I'm not sure where Shelly is his wife.
Speaker 2:I got to see my stepsister a couple years ago at Thanksgiving. She invited me over for a little party, so that was really cool. But yeah, as far as immediate family stuff, I don't think we've been together. All of us think we've been together all of us probably since my stepsister got married, which was probably 2010, 11. So it's been a good 15 years, but things happen for a reason and now I'm going on the right track and I feel great and this is awesome. You know, this is a nice place to talk about stuff like this, cause, you know, I really wanted to be here, cause I feel like a lot of men don't want to be vulnerable, and if I can, if I can be a help maybe yeah, somebody maybe it'll help somebody else.
Speaker 1:I love that. So the beginning of COVID and before COVID you and I were talking every day.
Speaker 1:We were really close and then you disappeared and I was very sad for a long time and I took it completely personal for a long time and I was hurt. And then I had an epiphany. I can't remember what I was watching. I was searching for the video because I know I recorded it and someday I'll find it and watch it too. That gave me one of the best epiphanies of my life, because I realized it was something about people are just doing what they're capable of.
Speaker 2:I took a big chance. If you want me to respond to why I left, or do you want to do your thing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to finish this. So I realized it wasn't about how much you cared or didn't care about me. It was about what you were capable of. Emotional availability isn't always a reflection of love, and I think this is full circle with your mom. Her emotional availability does not measure how much she loved you, her mental health, her situations. She obviously loved you so much and I hope that you know that yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm so thankful for this epiphany that you gave me because I've that. You know that. Yeah, and I'm so thankful for this epiphany that you gave me because I've done that with a lot of friends in life where I've taken it personally and you helped open my eyes to every relationship that I have. That it's not about me.
Speaker 2:Well, it makes me feel good, but I it was really hard. You know, I I left. There was a lot of people that picked me up during those early struggling years and, yeah, I just had a lot of bad things going on.
Speaker 1:And I just I had to get out.
Speaker 2:Because I wouldn't have changed if I didn't get away and I hope nobody in Maura takes that personally Because I just I had to go and I didn't care how long it was going to take.
Speaker 1:It was probably a year and a half or so of me feeling sad about it, and then, after I let it go, it was only a couple months before we saw each other again and everything's been fine and in great sense yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wouldn't change. I mean, Same.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't either.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was tough. You know, could I have done things better, of course, but that's just the way it went, but then I wouldn't have gotten my big epiphany.
Speaker 1:That helps me with all my relationships.
Speaker 2:Perhaps yeah, I am thankful for it.
Speaker 1:You're welcome. Yeah, everybody is just literally doing the best that they can, like I said.
Speaker 2:Totally, totally. And once I realized, oh my gosh, I got to take care of myself. Now, like I was, here we go, let's go, let's do this, and I'm still doing it. The thing is, you got to keep going. You don't want to stop. Keep trying to improve, mm-hmm yeah.
Speaker 1:And this big theme. Yeah, just put it up a bit. Okay, I think it is it falling down again? No, okay, maybe take the middle.
Speaker 2:Is that good? Okay, all right, hey, no worries, no worries.
Speaker 1:A big theme I've been thinking about for a couple of weeks is how progression is not like this for listeners. It's not like a steady hill, it is a. It is flat ground and then it peaks at one point. So you just got to keep going Totally and it's okay to descend.
Speaker 2:I think it's okay. I think you're human. I think you make mistakes. I think you try to learn from the mistakes, try not to make them again. But we're all humans. It's funny. You had to say mistakes. There was one time, uh I was at my cabin over in Hayward and I rolled one of my dad's snowmobiles and he didn't have uh insurance on it and he came up to me and looked at me in the eye and said mistakes happen once.
Speaker 1:What's that mean?
Speaker 2:I don't I. It stuck with me forever.
Speaker 1:Were you terrified to ever make a mistake again? Then yeah. I was terrified I was terrified before that, Beth. Your dad is a scary person. I mean he's very intimidating towers over people. He got it from his dad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my grandpa was a military guy.
Speaker 1:Very distressed.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm just going to say it. He was disrespectful to the women in our family, and if they hear it, so be it.
Speaker 1:And I feel like you've always been great to women, since high school. I try.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't say my relationships have been the best, you know. Looking back at stuff, I can say, oh my gosh, what was I doing here, what was I doing there? But now, you know, I'm pretty much in the longest relationship I've ever been in, so I gotta be doing something right?
Speaker 1:yeah, you're doing so much right. I hope you give yourself enough credit because, I mean, I don't know if this is true for you, but so many of us me, like, I'm always like thinking how horrible I'm doing and then I'm like, wait, a year ago I was doing this, this. So all these bad habits, and like I just keep raising the bar, yeah, and don't realize how far I've came. So I hope that, um, with all of that masking that you were forced to do, yeah, I'm just trying to.
Speaker 2:You know it's only been a couple years, but I'm just kind of trying to figure out, uh, who I really am, and, uh, trying to keep the sense of humor too yeah, I don't want to just erase it all, because I did have some good qualities and you want to take those along with you as best as you can yeah, 100 you don't got to completely get rid of everything. There's some good things too, kind of like anybody did some good things and some bad things. But you learn from them, and yeah.
Speaker 1:Is there anything else you want to say about that, about your childhood family?
Speaker 2:so much, you know. I don't know. I think I'm good right now, unless there's anything that comes up later that clicks. Maybe I'll come back to it.
Speaker 1:But yeah so now you can move on okay, yeah, I just wanted to talk about myself and my past drinking a little bit, because you were there for a lot of it, um, so I already knew that I shouldn't drink wine in public. At this time this was like 2018, 19 I think um, you'll know where it's going soon, but I, at this point, already knew that I cannot drink wine in public because I get whiny. And my nephew and I, isaac, were on our way to go have prime rev and I remember being excited, like I'm going to drink some wine, some red wine, with my meat, you know, with the prime rev. Um, cause I know I'm going home after this. I'm not going back out so I can just have one or two glasses of wine and go home.
Speaker 1:He was driving, so I knew he was just going to drop me back off at home and that was going to be the end, um, but when we were getting closer to home, he was talking to his parents, who ended up saying that a very close family friend, jody Oakers, was celebrating five years cancer free, and I was like that is something I really really want to go out and celebrate, like I really want to be there for that. So I really really want to go out and celebrate, like I really want to be there for that. So I'm not going to switch from wine to something else. So, of course, go to the crystal, have another glass of wine. We move over to the bar across the street, to Kev's where.
Speaker 1:I worked and Jody was buying a round of tequila for the whole bar, okay, and Haley was bartending and I remember her saying, oh, I just really don't want to be here tonight, like I kind of just wish you know it was dead so I could close. And I remember thinking the thought I don't even have a buzz right now. I've had three glasses of wine. I could stop drinking and take over for her and let her go home. But then I was like, well, I just really don't want to. I have to wake up tomorrow morning. I'm tired, I feel like having fun. So could have helped Haley out, but I made the choice not to. So again, this is three glasses of wine. I take one shot of tequila. I don't remember setting the glass of tequila down. I blacked out so hard. When I say I blacked out, I mean I don't remember setting the glass down. I don't remember two minutes, ten minutes any more of the night, and that's three glasses of wine and one shot in about three to four hours.
Speaker 1:I mean we had to drive back from Prime Rib.
Speaker 2:It was spaced out.
Speaker 1:The very next thing that I remember is the next morning, laying in bed, wake up fully clothed, the whole left side of my body, everything hurt so bad, from my head down my legs down to my feet, and I had my phone in my hand and I opened my eyes and looked at my phone and had a text message from you saying hey, I found you outside Emma's pizza in the grass and I got you home safe, yep, and uh, well, you know, huge wake up call for me. So how did you find me? I've never even asked you. Asked you, I mean, thank god I didn't go to detox because the police found me or I um a rapist.
Speaker 2:I think I was at the crystal and I was walking home when I was living with Lucas Smith and I was no, you were living with Reese at all was I living with Reese, yeah, so you were living right near there.
Speaker 1:well, if, oh was I living with Reese.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you were living right near there. Well, if it was cause I didn't live with Reese until I was until it was 2020, it couldn't have been 2018 or 19 then, Okay.
Speaker 1:Well, I think.
Speaker 2:I would. It must, because I think or maybe you know what it might've been was I was getting a ride somewhere and I think I just saw you and told whoever was giving me a ride to pull over, and then I believe I brought you back to your house and put you in your room, right, yeah, yeah, I think that's what happened. Might have been Gabe Bartle that gave me a ride. Oh, maybe I think it was yeah, well, okay.
Speaker 1:So that's just like an example for all the people who still don't understand why I don't drink anymore. Like my, my brain, I think it was like the switching of the alcohol. I think my brain was like, oh, I know where this is going. Tonight we're going to stop recording because I've heard that's what your brain does with um drinking the way that I did. So um another story um want to show you this video and we're going to post it.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you remember this video very well and we'll play it for the watchers, for the listeners. It is what year do you think this was? 2017, 18, 19?
Speaker 2:It was one of the first years they probably owned the bar. Yeah, I would say it was probably 16 or 17, if I had to guess yeah, so it's me falling off the bar and you were standing there it's funny you show me that video because I thought that's what you were originally going to talk about before the me finding you by Emma's.
Speaker 1:But go ahead yeah, so I fall off the bar. Yep, two in the morning and you're standing there. And what did you say?
Speaker 2:I forgot do you remember?
Speaker 1:they said that you were like get up Beth. And then everybody's like why would he say so? I'm like, because he's so used to my shit. She's like get up Beth.
Speaker 2:I'd say it probably wasn't the best thing to say, but what are you going to do?
Speaker 1:And then Kylie said you guys were asking questions like well, you know, does she have a concussion? Ask her who the president is? And Kylie's like ask her a president or ask her a question. She actually knows, because that's how much I dislike politics. Um, but yeah, that's just. I don't know, I mean.
Speaker 2:I can laugh at that video. It's been one of my favorite videos ever. But again, just another, yeah.
Speaker 1:Another example of me just hurting myself. I mean, I have a scar on my head from that Um, um. So I have never seen you obnoxious when you've been drinking. I've never seen you out of control. You've always been level-headed. You've never been like I should drive or I should get in a fight. I mean you're the last person to get in a fight.
Speaker 2:Um, you'll stand up for people, yeah, with no regard to you know most of the time, most of the time, I'm trying to diffuse that kind of yes, 100 because I heard and saw stuff like that when I was young. So yeah.
Speaker 1:So how did you? Why do you think you never were a bad drunk and what's your relationship with alcohol now?
Speaker 2:Uh well, I really don't. I guess I'll start with the second part. Uh, if I do drink, I really don't. I guess I'll start with the second part. Uh, if I do drink, it's only beer.
Speaker 1:It's never hard alcohol anymore Cause we were drinking together a lot before COVID.
Speaker 2:I mean quite a few nights a week, totally Yep. Um, as as far as like keeping tolerance together, I tried to stay away from shots as much as possible. I still did. Um, I guess I don't really have a good explanation. You did have hard boundaries with that. I guess I don't really have a good explanation as to why.
Speaker 1:You did have hard boundaries with that. I remember we'd all get mad because you'd be like nope, nope, it's past midnight, or you'd have some rule for yourself that night and you were really good with self-discipline.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I'm sure there were times where I had way too much and I probably got sick and I said, well, this is stupid, what are you doing? And then this is stupid, what are you doing? And then you know, I used to have this routine where when I was working at the golf course I would work Sunday through Friday and then I would just go get bombed on Friday, like absolutely bombed, and then I wouldn't do usually wouldn't do much on Saturday, and then it was just a rotation all the time. But as far as like drinking a lot, I never had booze and I very, very rarely had booze in the house, like if it was booze it would be beer, it wouldn't be liquor, cause I knew my family had a problem with hard alcohol, like big time. In fact I couldn't even tell you a time when there wasn't alcohol involved for any kind of like a full family function.
Speaker 2:You know that was the forefront all the time. Um, as far as like keeping my tolerance, uh.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't really have a good reason, for it's hard to know how you behave when you've been drinking you know unless and there hadn't been a lot of times that somebody told me you were doing this or that. But of course you're waking up the next day thinking, oh, why the hell did I do this or do that?
Speaker 1:yeah. So you never had some big moment where you're like man, I need to quit drinking, because you went what'd? You go six months or three months and now you only drink every few months yeah.
Speaker 2:So the last time I actually had booze I was at a wedding a couple summers ago and I was sitting at a table and somebody handed me a cocktail and then I was drinking that the rest of the night and I got super sick and that's when I was like, okay, I'm not doing that anymore and I just I don't. I don't drink booze anymore and I also don't mix. So if I am smoking weed, I'm not drinking, and vice versa, if I'm drinking, I'm not smoking weed, for sure yeah, like I don't setting hard boundaries well, I think the thing is is that you know you can take a shot or whatever, and it doesn't hit you right away.
Speaker 2:And then all of a sudden, oh this hasn't hit me, I better take another one.
Speaker 1:And then all of a sudden, nighty night, yeah yeah, and so true, and, but I can't think that way. If I have more than one or two drinks in me, I can't think straight like, yeah, I guess I uh it.
Speaker 2:Maybe it was when I maybe that changed after I got my DUI in 2010. I don't know if that.
Speaker 1:I didn't I forget. We weren't super close at that time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I got a Dewey and yeah, well, I don't do that anymore. Anyway, I got lost. Where were we About tolerance still?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean just. I just think it's really great that you kind of just changed your lifestyle and relationship with alcohol without like a big traumatic thing happening.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I guess if I had to point it down to one thing, it's uh, I've seen it a lot growing up yeah so I've been around it, yeah, so I kind of know how to behave, and it kind of goes back to that thing of trying to do the right thing even if it's not the right decision love it well, we're grown-ups now, almost kind of maybe, I mean we both came a long way no, I still feel 25 ish, 30 maybe yeah, yeah, we'll be saying 40 in 10 years.
Speaker 1:So so this podcast is also about spirituality, and I don't know what you believe at all. Why do you believe we're here on this planet?
Speaker 2:why do I believe we're here on this planet? Uh, I think we're. I think we have souls inside of us that were probably pre-existing. From this is going to sound very extravagant I love extra extravagant.
Speaker 2:I think I don't really know that we're supposed to know what the purpose of it is, and I think that when you get into overthinking it, that's when you go down the rabbit hole of doing it wrong. I watched a podcast that. So let me just. I should probably back up and go back to my childhood a little bit. I was the only one that really went to church and I didn't understand why.
Speaker 2:I got put in the confirmation program and I got confirmed at Grace Lutheran Church and I think that was something that my mom wanted me to do, but it was confusing because my mom was Catholic and my dad was Lutheran, but I was the only one of the kids that was going and doing these things.
Speaker 2:My older sister did not. I did. I don't know the reason why that was, but so I got confirmed when I was 15 and I kind of just I wasn't super religious or whatever, but I was listening to a podcast and I kind of just, I wasn't super religious or whatever, but I was listening to a podcast and I will never forget this because I know what the date was and it was with Cat Williams and he was on with Rogan and it was the last leap day, the last February 29th, was that. That might have been last year, not this 2025, but the last one, and he said something along the line of I'm just trying to be God's friend that's so beautiful and it just like it totally clicked in my head and I was like that makes so much sense.
Speaker 2:I want to be God's friend, so I don't think it's about, at least for me anyway, I don't. For me it's not. I need to go to church to feel validated. I'm just going to try to validate it through my behavior.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:It. Just it really clicked with me and that's like one of the things I was saying earlier that I kind of keep in my in the back of my head when I feel like things are starting to get off kiltered. Yeah, yeah, things like that. Another one I heard on a different podcast was you're not obligated to be the same person you were five minutes ago. I love that one and I think that's super true.
Speaker 1:Yep, I know that one, and that one sticks with me too.
Speaker 2:Those are just a couple, but as far as spirituality I mean, I definitely felt something inside me when I heard him say that. Yeah, it probably sounds very weird, but no. It's hard, you know it's hard to talk it's it's hard to. It's hard to make tangible words out of spiritual stuff for me, Definitely I get that.
Speaker 1:Okay. Last couple of questions what do you do? What's a habit that you have right now that you like, that you have and want to keep?
Speaker 2:definitely exercise.
Speaker 1:I think there's nothing more important, and we were talking about um taking the antidepressants and stuff and you can create the stuff that you need by the right chemicals, the endorphins, the right chemicals naturally by exerting yourself in a way, and it doesn't even and again I like to.
Speaker 2:I've been testing myself with all this stuff and for me it is night and and day. I can have a bad day and I can go for a run and I'm like that and I'm a completely different person and, honestly, sometimes I don't even think about what I was doing. That was making me frustrated earlier and so I run. I like to run, for me it's running. It used to be walking and when I was going through my stuff I was walking around town a ton because I was just I don't even know why. There's just something I was doing.
Speaker 1:It's just movement, it's just forward, progression yeah. And, like I said, with the antidepressants I went on when I was 19 or 20 and I told Kajal, let's take the stairs. I needed them to help me start moving and once I was able to start moving, I didn't need them anymore. And that's not the case for everybody, but that is my story.
Speaker 2:And it makes a lot of sense, cause, like when I even when I was in school and I was playing basketball, you know, I played a lot of minutes, I wasn't sitting on the bench a lot, and those were the times I was the happiest.
Speaker 1:That's probably when I got you through all that and it never clicked, you know you obvious, that's probably one guy who threw all that and it never clicked.
Speaker 2:You know you get done with high school and you know I had some intramurals and stuff and this and that. But then eventually you get older and you know college days are done and it was just the way of how things were going and I just became stagnant. You know I'd play volleyball once a week or whatever, but I think golf, which is great, absolutely golf is totally.
Speaker 2:Golf is great because it's a great escape, cause you at least for me, you know I started playing when I was three or four years old and it's it's.
Speaker 1:It's kind of therapeutic in its own way, because it kind of takes your mind off of real life which is why I uh it's obviously such a mental game, but it's not that physical exhaustion that you get from running and things and like doing the hard things I mean golf is hard in a mental way, but I think pushing your body hard just releases the right chemicals.
Speaker 2:That's just all it is. Yeah, and how many times after you go for a run when you say you don't want to go for a run?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you do it anyways.
Speaker 2:Honestly, the hardest part is starting to do it for me.
Speaker 1:I think I heard Andrew Huberman just say because I like cold baths better than cold showers, because I'm like I just want to get it over with. But he was saying if you just turn it cold? I think he said three times, because that's like the third time of doing that hard thing, yep.
Speaker 2:And I do that too. There's a couple of things when you get in the cold shower it helps you to.
Speaker 2:It helps you to breathe deep and it also heightens your awareness ridiculously. I kind of reminds me of like when you jump in the lake for the first time that spring, when it's just warm enough and you go down, I kind of just jump in, you go to the bottom, you come back up and you're like you're just sort of yeah, when you're breathing that heavy, I mean that's got to be doing something to your blood, and all the way down to your toes yeah, I saw gary brocka doing stuff like that too.
Speaker 2:I follow him and you know all these health guys and you know like some things don't work for me, that they recommend, and but I think the point is to try it.
Speaker 1:I think if you're talking about healthy living, yeah, then you're just in that mind state on that frequency and if you're not, then what are you talking about and what frequency are you on? And?
Speaker 2:honestly, I don't have any. After doing all this running and, you know, working out and stuff, I don't I've kind of figured out a way I don't really get anxious anymore. So when you asked me to do this, I initially, my initial thoughts were absolutely I told you right away I was like anytime, let's do this. I didn't think about it when I was driving up today. I didn't think about it when I drove over. I you know, in the past I'd be like, oh my God, I have to go to the bathroom or whatever, and am I really going to do this? Blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:But I know I'm a different person now and I could do this anytime like this is great oh, I just heard on a podcast before we started that, like confidence comes from being from after you've proved to yourself that you are who you think you are. And I think you just proved that you know who you are.
Speaker 2:Yep, and so you don't have any insecurities about doing scary stuff like this no, I really don't, and I'm open to trying to do new things, like there's stuff I've not. I went to a show. I went and saw a comedy show. I've never. It's not like that's super challenging, but I used to not being. I used to not like to be in large crowds, like I don't like talking in front of a bunch of people.
Speaker 1:But I could totally do that now, no problem and it's just from one little hard thing at a time and you don't even realize that you're gonna get that from it. I know, and it just happens it's amazing it is amazing yeah, I love it, it's great.
Speaker 2:I hope other people do it. Yeah for real, for real Me too.
Speaker 1:Let's all do the hard thing.
Speaker 2:Honestly, it's the most important thing I do is exercise. It really is I believe that yeah. I believe that Now if I can get my diet down a little bit better, that'd be great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my hip is not allowing me to run right now for the first time in my life, and all I can think of why this is happening to me, why the universe has this happening, is that I need to control my eating more it's tough and, like I said, I like to smoke pot and sometimes I have an edible and then that just catches your brain and then all of a sudden it's snack central and you're like why the hell? Did I get so creative me too?
Speaker 2:I love it because it's a nice escape and it's you know I used to be a heavy user, I used to yeah when the pandemic was going on, I was 24 7. Wake up, here we go. But now I do it once an evening, that's it. And it's not an edible every night, it's just an occasion, like I. Just it's instinctual for me, like if I feel like I want to do it, i'm'm probably going to do it, and if I'm not feeling it, I'm not.
Speaker 2:That's okay, another thing I'd like to say. It's not about the substance, it's about the relationship. So it's like oh, here's some cocaine. Maybe I probably shouldn't be doing that, but I can have a little bit of weed once in a while, or a couple of beers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and have a little bit of weed once in a while or a couple of beers, yeah, and I need to change my relationship with sugar. That's my thing this year because it's not healthy.
Speaker 2:Correct. It is correct. But yeah, there's a lot of stuff. It kind of feels like we're living in revelations, doesn't it? Like everything is kind of coming up and everybody's starting to learn about a bunch of stuff.
Speaker 1:But I wonder if society always thinks that I think it's different with the internet.
Speaker 2:I think there's so much internet, I think there's so much, uh, instantaneous information. That's true with ai, with that, and you know it wasn't long ago that you couldn't have a facetime conversation with somebody in japan, and you know super sure, who knows?
Speaker 1:what it's going to be like, because yeah keeps getting exponentially more and more technological yeah, and it's like I don't watch tv shows barely anymore because I just want to watch podcasters I just want to hear people talking, and I think of that as such a good thing, but maybe we're not meant to know this many people's inner worlds and perspectives, who knows?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, again, the substance versus the relationship thing. Like I was watching a lot of you know podcasts and this and that, but I've cut back a ton. Part of it has to do with the basketball playoffs being on. But if I'm at, you know I door dash, that's what my job is now and if, if it's a slow time, I kind of just sit at home and I have it on pause and I just throw something on, because for me I like to. The thing that helped me with podcasts is that you can actually watch somebody talk versus. I have trouble reading books because I get so distracted, whereas if I'm looking at somebody saying the words and it can kind of feel like you can kind of decide whether you think something is legitimate or not, whereas if you read a book they might have had that perspective then, but maybe they don't feel that way now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like listening to podcasts when I'm driving, but if I'm at home, I'm watching. I like watching I strictly only watch.
Speaker 2:I won't put it on. I'll have music in my car when I'm delivering or whatever, but yeah, but yeah when I'm at home, it's, except for when you got the device in your hand. That's tough, that's another one. I'm trying to trying to use the phone less. It's so hard though it really is it is because again all artificial dopamine.
Speaker 1:All we are is chemicals and we get addicted to those hits yeah, yeah so okay, well, that was. My other question was what do you do that you want to do less of? And phone then, or yeah?
Speaker 2:definitely phone. I would say that's. There's some times where I uh, I just put it upstairs. Here's a perfect example. I got a membership at the course this year. I do not bring the phone with me, I leave it in the car.
Speaker 1:That's great. One step at a time, yep. So when I, when my nervous system was at a really unhealthy level, work-wise, and I started leaving my phone in the car for even two minutes at a time after an appointment, was helping me grow Just those little, tiny, small hard things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that's what it is. It's like incremental. You kind of just got to keep going yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I hope that you come back in the fall and give me an updated answer on this. But very last question who is going to play in the Super? And give me an updated answer on this. But very last question who is going to play in the super bowl in 2025 season?
Speaker 2:and I feel like you'll change your answer next time you come on, but we'll be able to look back on this and see you know I don't say this very often, but I'm going to say the vikings are going to be in the super bowl and I'm going to say Baltimore.
Speaker 1:Awesome, so it's going to be all purple. Awesome, that's where I'm going. Vikes coming to the.
Speaker 2:Super Bowl. You heard it from me.
Speaker 1:Woo-hoo.
Speaker 2:I hope I'm right. I love it. That'd be great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it. This was so great. You got a lot from me, so anytime lot for me, so anytime I'll do anything for you.
Speaker 1:I mean that thanks, mike love you, love you not, comes from the greek word sailor and means voyager or traveler. Like an astronaut searching the stars, a supernaut is one searching the inner and outer worlds of self, navigating life, consciousness and reality, striving for betterment. The paradox is that seeking and striving can create more unrest and more unhappiness. So, while calm seas may not make great sailors, I plan to explore the idea of light rescuing darkness instead of fighting it.