Supernaut
Supernaut is a podcast about spirituality, sobriety, and the spectrum of self. Hosted by Beth Kelling, this show explores what it means to seek clarity, connection, and personal truth in a world that rarely slows down.
Since beginning her sobriety journey in 2020, Beth has been diving deeper into spiritual practices, emotional honesty, and all the beautiful, messy layers of identity.
Each episode opens the door to conversations about healing, growth, creativity, intuition, and everything in between — because who we are isn’t fixed, it’s a spectrum.
Beth will be joined by guests who share their own stories, perspectives, and spiritual paths — offering insight, inspiration, and the occasional cosmic detour.
Whether you’re sober-curious, spiritually inclined, or just looking to feel a little more human, you’re in the right place
Supernaut
Softer Not Harder Jen P - 2
What happens when you stop trying to solve yourself as a problem? This candid conversation explores how physical movement—specifically running—can transform your mental landscape in ways medication and talk therapy alone often can't.
Jen shares her journey of reconnecting with running after years away from it, discovering that the mental benefits far outweigh the physical ones. We discuss how consistent exercise strengthens willpower, improves decision-making, and creates a natural "brain sweep" that clears mental clutter. For anyone struggling with anxiety, rumination, or ADHD symptoms, running offers a powerful tool for mental regulation without side effects.
The episode dives deep into the counterintuitive wisdom of "trying softer instead of harder." When we release our vice grip on perfectionism and stop making ourselves into problems that need solving, we often find the peace we've been seeking all along. This approach extends beyond exercise into how we communicate with loved ones, process grief, and navigate life's challenges. We explore how awareness of our thoughts and emotional patterns accelerates personal growth, while acknowledging that sometimes less awareness means less suffering.
Our conversation takes an honest turn toward mortality and the ways our culture struggles with death conversations. We discuss the importance of autonomous choices at end of life and how loneliness often accompanies grief even when surrounded by others. The episode wraps with insights about supporting others effectively—asking what they need rather than jumping to solutions, and finding the balance between direct communication and empathy.
Have you been trying too hard instead of trying differently? Listen now and discover how movement might be the missing piece in your mental health puzzle. Share your experiences with us on social media—we'd love to hear what resonated with you!
0:00 Finding Comfort in Music and Friendship
3:46 Rediscovering the Joy of Running
12:03 Exercise and Mental Health Benefits
21:43 Awareness and Healing Journeys
29:04 Discussing Death and Mortality
42:41 Supporting Others and Communication Styles
Jen, thank you for being here again. I know it's so fun. Thank you for having me. What song did you just have us?
Speaker 2:listen to. We just listened to. Let it All Work Out by Lil Wayne.
Speaker 1:I literally had never heard it before and it was so good. I want to listen to it all day, every day.
Speaker 2:I have been, I think, since, like April, I'm pretty sure it's been on my. It's the first thing I listen to every time I work out, every time I run, then in the car, then all the time, because that's how I listen, you know. Yeah, last time you were on.
Speaker 1:We were talking about how important friendships are. I think, weren't we? And like, yeah, when that song came on and I was listening, I was thinking about when I'm in those moments where I don't feel like anything's going to work out and somebody you just need a friend to take you out. The last was fair board meeting. I was like texting our friend Shannon, like freaking out because the band guy hadn't gotten back to me and we had to vote on it and she literally had had enough of me. She's like usually when I stop thinking about things, they just work out, beth, and I'm like, okay, you're right. 10 minutes later he messaged me it had been like a week. So I's so funny. So I'm like it happens like that sometimes too.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:For sure, and so, yeah, it's just like I know I bring people out sometimes, yeah, and I need those people to bring me out.
Speaker 2:I think that's the whole like idea Like I love that idea that sometimes the answer is to pull back. Yes, and it to pull back, and it's not to try to like force everything.
Speaker 1:Veda, what does it say on my phone right now? Sometimes you have to try softer, not try harder, try softer.
Speaker 2:Instead of trying harder, try softer.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, that is. That's a mantra that I need so hard right now.
Speaker 2:So then you have to listen to this Lil Wayne song every day. I will listen every day Because I mean, obviously me and Lil Wayne have not had the same struggles. But let's just say, okay, get it like. You probably didn't write that song for me, but he's my boyfriend, so obviously he did so many people obviously love his music because he's so relatable. Plus, how can you not love like the, just wordsmithing? I just just love his, like you know.
Speaker 2:So flowy, like his little T-boss and left eye and chili, my favorite TLC, like when I was in I don't know eighth grade, but I must be. Must be like similar age because a lot of times he'll have like throwback references that remind me of being young.
Speaker 1:I feel like he's 20. I feel like I'll always think of him as 20 years old. Why is that?
Speaker 2:I don't know, because I think he's probably like 5'3 tall and maybe like how old. Let's figure out how old Lil Wayne is. I'll look at his penis on it yeah, 42. Oh, I knew it 42.
Speaker 1:He's close.
Speaker 2:Closer to your age than mine because I'm an old lady he's 5'5". Is he 5'5"?
Speaker 1:5'3 was rude, that was just mean. How old were you when you first heard his music?
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, I don't. My kids were little, so like early 2000s, maybe I don't even know when he started making music. I was probably late to the party. Let's be honest or not? Sometimes I'll find a song on YouTube and I'll be like you guys this is such a good song and Sophie will be like mom. That literally came out seven years ago. I'm like what? 2005? Yeah, that's when Sophie was born.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that was the year after I graduated.
Speaker 2:Like a milli and just millions of many good songs. And he does this collab with Jay-Z, my other favorite rap artist, who I hope Diddy's not going to take down, but I'm pretty sure he's in trouble. Let's just be honest. He was definitely partaking in the trouble, so that's okay, I guess. Yeah, let's hope the cookie crumbles.
Speaker 1:So you've been listening when you've been running You've been running a lot.
Speaker 2:I have been running a lot. So, just backing it up, I used to run a lot, a lot like marathons, half marathons, Always. There wasn't a lot of weeks that I didn't run. And then I don't know, COVID, some just life circumstances. I just kind of fell out of love with it or I wasn't taking the time for myself to like do the things that made me good, and so I gained some weight and I was really frustrated.
Speaker 2:And this fall or this spring, I, or last fall, I signed up for grandma's half and it finally just became time to start some training. And I was like half and it finally just became time to start some training and I was like half-assing it at the beginning, Like I'm going to do like two gym days and like an arm day and a leg day and like I really felt good just getting back into the gym. And then I was like kind of half-assing the running part and finally one day I was on the treadmill and I was like listen, bitch, you, you're in this bitch and you cannot make yourself. This is not going to feel good until you just run Nobody's coming to save you.
Speaker 1:You just have to do it, you just you have to, you can't walk Like.
Speaker 2:I didn't want to be hard on myself, cause I have had a mindset of like a very black and white mindset about exercise in the past, and that is because of other circumstances, like something that I've had to really work on and um and I will talk about that at some point, but not right now and anyways, I decided that I just had to like get more miles in and not post around anymore. So once I started doing that, then running got easier again again and then I remembered why I love it. I was like, oh, I can run, not fast, so much slower than I used to be, painfully much slower, but I'm at least seven years older than the last time I really ran and like ran for like actual, like length and yeah.
Speaker 1:So I'm just trying to be nice to myself, but and did you start off like lifting more, because I remember you were lifting for a while. Did that like help you get in the? Yeah?
Speaker 2:I think just like not skipping any workouts and like making sure I was working out like an hour a day at least, like six days a week, because I really my mental health greatly improves and the interesting part about running the other cool stuff that it does because I like six days a week, because I really my mental health greatly improves and the interesting part about running the other cool stuff that it does because I probably have ADHD. Let's just not let the therapist diagnose herself, but I think it could be a consensus. It strengthens my mental game for like concentration and also willpower 100%.
Speaker 2:It's wild. So every time, I don't, you know, every time I go, I just want to walk and then I just keep running. It's the same way. I go like I would like another drink and I'm like, no, you don't, you need to go to bed. Or like maybe I'll just smell my smoke. Okay, I've been failing on that lately, but also I'm not working down packs of cigarettes, so but I could be. But I think it like whatever that muscle is, like willpower slash, self-control is very helpful for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I'm so obsessed with the idea of getting the hardest thing out of the way in the morning, but then that stops me from running later, Like then I'm like.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to run out after work.
Speaker 2:I'm just going to run tomorrow morning and then like you know it's crazy, so same, so I have the same thing. So I was always planning to do all my runs after work. Well, it's just too late because my brain starts obsessing about it. So I always used to run first thing in the morning when I was like in my old running days, I'm not so attuned to getting up in the morning. I think it's going to come. I've done it like twice, but so then I started like going on any no-shows that I have or like my lunch breaks, and just like making myself do it when I don't know what I was doing with all that time before, because my charts are caught up and can you run at the hospital, I do, and all that time before because my charts are caught up and you run at the hospital.
Speaker 2:I do it's just change clothes there, yeah, I've closed, and then I just go sweat it out and they're like everyone's like, aren't you sweaty? When you get back, I'm like I don't care, like really, I just change and it's fine.
Speaker 1:Nothing else mattered, nothing is more important.
Speaker 2:The run-in and the earlier in the day I can do it you're right is better, so I've just kind of made friends with the midday workout. It's weird.
Speaker 1:But like I should tell myself like yes, it's okay to run in the evenings until you are feeling better and can start waking up.
Speaker 2:Because, like I know, once I get in a routine then like waking up is going to be so much easier I can tell you right now that one of the keys to like being able to get back into this has been being kinder to myself than I ever was, because I can get really rigid, like I hear you saying, like I have this kind of rigid belief.
Speaker 2:I need to go in the morning. So, yes, just give yourself a bunch of grace, and if it works at night, do it at night, and if it doesn't work, to just make sure you tell yourself you're going to. I don't know when it flipped, but I'm just not missing runs. I'm not doing doing that. And if I feel like unmotivated to run, then I'll just throw my weighted vest on and go like, okay, I'm at least gonna go walk two miles and by then I'll usually throw my vest off and go for a run yeah, I have weighted um arm and leggy things and I always forget I gotta just like put them in the middle.
Speaker 2:I just leave them in my car.
Speaker 1:I can just remember to put them on, because then walking feels like way more productive, I know.
Speaker 2:It actually feels like it matters. Yeah, so I just, ultimately, it's been really fun to re-excavate something that I kind of had put to bed and remember really why I loved it so much. I sleep so much better. I'm so tired at night.
Speaker 1:Today was my first day running in like five days and my goal was to run so hard that I made myself cry, which I'm usually not that horrible to myself. Did you cry? I don't think any tears came out, but like a little watery, like where I'm like. Okay, I feel like this was the release that I needed. It's just been a rough week because I think I was like overdosing on magnesium, Like just kidding. But I was taking it like overdosing on magnesium, Like just kidding.
Speaker 2:But I was taking it. Actually that could be. Yeah, I was taking it. Wait, your tummy's not right. Oh, do you know that? Oh, okay, good to know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so I was taking it with breakfast and I was so deadly tired every day this week. So finally I was like, looked it up, I'm like, oh yeah, this was supposed to be taken at night. I just haven't been eating. I've been fasting at night a lot.
Speaker 2:So, I.
Speaker 1:That's why I switched to taking it during the day and just wasn't thinking but so, like now, no, if I take it, it has to be at night, because it was making me like it was hard to walk, it was hard to breathe. So anyways, this is. That's why it's just been a rough week week and so just like getting this run out this morning. Then then I had a great day and now I think I can get back into routines you can this routine.
Speaker 2:I just and I think in the beginning I just seriously questioned that I could really do it. I really didn't even believe that I could do it. And then one day it just snapped. I was like you have to run, that's all you have to do, just shut up, put your clothes on and go what do you think made that snap, that awareness? Um, I think I was having another one of those like kind of half-assed runs where I was like looking and running.
Speaker 2:It was like taking forever and I was annoyed with myself and I was like just run yeah so then, yeah, yeah, it just kind of clicked like duh, you're running is going to get easier if you just run.
Speaker 2:Um, I'm much more sore than I was when I was young. It stings a little, like my recovery takes longer, but yeah, that's really. I think the brain craves like that kind of release. And then when you think about, like in relationship to sobriety, the more tools you have in your tool bag that aren't any kind of use, the more that becomes like your fallback, like I look forward to my run, just like I would look forward to a glass of wine, because it truly gives me like I'm remembering that it gives me the same kind of peace. So, and not like wine really gives gives me peace, it gives me a hangover that makes me want to die.
Speaker 1:So but when you're consistently running, do you think you drink less?
Speaker 2:wine, like when you don't drink.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah and you're. And less cigarettes, yes, less sneaky smoking, all of it. It's just like it's the one thing that should be.
Speaker 2:Um, no matter what, the non-negotiable thing is just working out, oh and it's yeah, and for years it was, and I just let it go, it was done.
Speaker 1:The endorphins, the dopamine hits everything that you get from it.
Speaker 2:I have a Plinko that happens in my brain, where everything gets ordered. I make lists and I think about what I'm going to do. It's very much yes, and guess what?
Speaker 1:Then I listened to Bach this lists and I think about what I'm going to do. It's very much yes. And guess what? Then I listened to Bach this morning, cause I think the run made me think clearer already.
Speaker 1:So then I put Bach on my whole house as loud as I could, because that helps you organize your thoughts and I'm like I did have a really good day I mean, I was more productive than any other day this week, for sure and I feel like, yeah, even before I'm like I'm gonna go home and just like shut my eyes for 10-15 minutes, and then I just didn't, because like something else came up and I felt like doing that more so yeah, that energy boost is really real.
Speaker 1:I just so it's like one good decision at a time, like running made me think of the good decision of listening to classical music, which is like proven scientifically to organize your thoughts, and yeah, I mean I just did have a really good day. It is kind of like a building self-care routine, like then I bought new workout clothes and that was really fun and now I have which makes a difference to like, if you have fun workout clothes, it just you want to work out more, you want to put them on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're like this is really cute and I put them on. Yeah, you're like this is really cute and I am just the queen of what am I gonna say, like not being very self-indulgent, that way like.
Speaker 2:I'm not like I'm gonna buy myself a new running out no, that is not. I'm like I'm gonna wear these shorts that I've had for 27 years, like and I've passed it on to some of my children not all of my kids, uh and I just feel a little bad about it. Like it's okay, like we can buy new things for ourselves and enjoy them. So I know that sounds like an opposite lesson of like growth, except for for me, it's different, because I've always been like a super minimalist when it comes to like. I will wear these sandals right here, truly, honestly, deeply, through the whole entire summer.
Speaker 1:These will be the only shoes I wear one pair, that's all so you're proud of yourself when you spend money and yeah, a little, yeah, like I actually like on the last episode, when I was proud that I missed that mating, like you know right yeah, other b and I.
Speaker 2:For me is this like into, I'll get into, like indecision freeze, you know, like I don't want to oh, I can't go buy new shoes, because what if I didn't get the best shoe that I should have got? Or, like I have bought, this is my third pair of these sandals, because they're the same.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but then you know every outfit that they're going to go with which is every, by the way, every single outfit, yeah. Cause I was like freaking out yesterday like overly tired and the like decisions. I'm so sick of making decisions. Like I can't make it easy, like what I'm going to have for lunch.
Speaker 2:Decision fatigue is real. When you're boss lady and like you do right and do you just get like, do you find yourself like drilling into the details too far and just overthinking. That's when you have to let it all work out.
Speaker 1:But yes, and that's what running does. I had some quote that I read this morning too. That was like running will make you stop overthinking, and if that's all it did, sign me up.
Speaker 2:For years. Jake would say you're like a dog off a leash. You really are much easier to be around when you've run in the morning. I've always been a little pent up like how about, like you know, busy energy that doesn't really go anywhere, and so running just seems to like order that I really missed it and I was really scared that I couldn't, truly couldn't, do it, like I was really afraid I couldn't just go back to it so, yeah, and now, next time that you have to do something hard, even if you don't consciously remember it, hopefully your brain will be like hey, I know I can do hard things.
Speaker 2:I did this super hard thing because running is hard, it is hard and everyone's just a little bit different, and sometimes I'm like, oh, I have this decked and the next time I'm like this is horrible, why am I dying?
Speaker 1:yeah, like I had a really really good run today and I ran really fast, but I should prepare myself for next time. It might not be.
Speaker 2:I've always had a theory, but like if a run starts out easy, it's gonna end hard, and like if it starts out hard, it's gonna end easier and then it's just like telling myself, like I haven't had to do this lately because I've been craving running, but just put on your shoes and walk. And then you'll want to run, you will, that's what I had to do for years.
Speaker 1:It was just like just tell yourself you're going for a walk, and it will turn into a run Trick, yours.
Speaker 2:Don't tell us we're actually going for a run. Yeah, yeah, I actually did that today. It was getting hot out and I was tired and I have a little Achilles hang-up after my long run this weekend which I had hurt in the past, and I do not want to hurt again. So I told myself it was okay to just go do a weighted walk Then, like halfway through, it, I'm like I'm going to go drop this off and go for a run.
Speaker 2:But then Lily called, and so then I chatted with her instead. Oh, and I talked to your mom. That's great that you had the urge I did. I was really walking back to my car to throw my vest in and go for a run when I first talked to Shannon and then Lily.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. And also I've been feeling like, oh, it's nice outside, I should run outside. But I felt like running on my treadmill and then, with the fires the Canada fires this morning I was like, oh, now I have an excuse to run inside and I should always let myself. If that's what's going to get me running, it doesn't matter If you like to run inside.
Speaker 2:run inside, if you prefer, like a run wherever, just whatever it takes. But like as we talk, I'm just sitting here thinking how many mental tricks it really takes to get yourself motivated.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know that you have 7,000 thoughts a day. Really, isn't that a lot, do you?
Speaker 1:know what's really crazy, even come from like who puts them in my brain?
Speaker 2:everywhere they come from your senses. Like, the trick with thoughts is to not, because thoughts also come with emotion like a lot of time, then the trick is to, like sort out which ones you're going to pay attention to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, are we thinking beings with emotions or are we emotional beings with thoughts? I think we're emotional beings with thoughts. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because thoughts are just so throwaway and trash sometimes and you can just get yourself stuck on the dumbest things that are not even true. And this week in therapy I have just really become so I don't know sad maybe. Just how mean people are to themselves, truly like internal thought process, how hard people are on themselves, like perfection, like this kind of idea, like sometimes you have to go softer, not harder. Sometimes you just got to let it all work out and like release your vice grip on yourself. Like my favorite thing to say is always there's not a problem to solve. I'm sorry that you're not a problem to solve, but you can make yourself one. You can make your whole life a problem to solve.
Speaker 1:You just got to get out of your own way, freaking miserable.
Speaker 2:And like.
Speaker 1:my invasive thoughts lately have been like when I think somebody is like mad at me or upset with me, and then like for weeks I'll be like yeah, they're mad at me and I'll convince myself and I'll just like feel the sadness in my body. And then like finally talk to them and like no, everything's fine, they're just busy.
Speaker 1:Guess what? Like? The world doesn't revolve around you. They have a life, are you sure? I'm convinced that they hate me and I can't figure out why. And it's like, why does my brain obsessively like to do that? But hopefully I can just keep running and keep not letting those thoughts penetrate. Is Not letting those thoughts penetrate Is it when you're PMSing?
Speaker 2:I don't know when I do it because I don't.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's right, I don't have experience.
Speaker 2:That's right. My three main thoughts when I'm PMSing are why is it so loud, loud? Why is it so loud? Everybody hates me and I hate everybody.
Speaker 1:How many days do you PMS for Like?
Speaker 2:two or three. Yeah, it's just loud and I'm annoyed and I'm sure everybody hates me. So my sister and I used to call it. Everybody went to the cabin without us. It's fine, everybody's just at the cabin. She didn't even say me and then, like, as soon as I catch one of those thoughts, I'm like, oh, check my period tracker. I'm like, oh, check my period tracker. I'm like, oh yeah, that's PMS. Oh, the other one is how ugly I am, like I'll find myself in the mirror. And I'm just like, oh, my gosh, when did I get this ugly?
Speaker 1:This is so ew yeah. I never remember that that can be a PMS thing, because, yeah, that just like spirals into the deepest depression. There's like nothing worse than those couple days in a row where every time you look in the mirror you just feel so hideous and you're like, how do people look at me, how do people even be around me, yeah, and it's literally just hormones.
Speaker 2:And, speaking of not to get super personal, but I saw an integrative medicine doc last like two weeks ago and she medicine doc last like two weeks ago and she was so cool. So she did like all these like deep dive, like I have a thyroid condition anyways, so she's like let's fine tune that bad boy. Then she's like let's look at all your hormones. She's like you're definitely in perimenopause. You probably need some progesterone and some estrogen, like we'll. So she did all these labs and she did like a gut health panel. So that's kind of fun. She told me to drink bone broth, which I think is still sitting in my amazon cart I have.
Speaker 1:I don't know what the brand is that I like, but it's powder packets, yeah, and there's like a chicken flavor, a beef flavor and a ramen flavor and the ramen I'm obsessed with and all of them, and so, yeah, I drink, I try and drink one or two a day put them in hot water and they're delicious.
Speaker 1:That this brand so it's like tastes like soup, bone bear and can you look it up b-a-r-r-e. Bear and something. Okay, um, yeah, and the packets are just easy to bring wherever she's like. Start with bone broth immediately. Okay, like one of the first things in the morning. I either do greens or protein shake or bone broth.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I'm on it. Or electrolytes Bare bones.
Speaker 2:I'm going to put it in my notes so I don't forget. Kettle and fire is really good. I like that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like that one too.
Speaker 2:So another theme this week has really been I just am so fascinated, I like that one. Yeah, I like that one too. So another theme this week has really been.
Speaker 2:I just am so fascinated by people's level of awareness, right, so I always think awareness is like this spectrum and I would say I would put you very in the aware category of the spectrum. So if you walk into therapy offices, I'm sure your therapist or whoever if you've ever done that, is like, oh sweet, like we're starting way over here with this girl, like change will come probably more quickly. And then there's like this side of the awareness spectrum in which this person has like very little actual internal awareness of like what makes them tick, their thoughts, like their actions, like the way they like appear in the world, and that takes a lot longer and it's just been so interesting. You know, I apply this theory a lot, especially when I first meet someone, and sometimes people's awareness is like so cool and so through the roof and everyone gets there in such different ways. But, um, sometimes a lack of awareness like looks really lovely, fun, kind of sweet.
Speaker 2:Seriously, it's kind of nice, I don't hate it seriously. Yeah, just to be just um, but what I was sort of going with is like, a lot of times, though, when you're in this like healing space awareness is you're moving more quickly this way towards awareness than like stuck back here. It's way hard to do healing over here. You do healing if you don't have any awareness. Yeah, so you have to like teach presence and awareness and like paying attention, like some you know, to autonomic thoughts and like the way you speak to yourself, all kinds of rules and lessons and work to do.
Speaker 1:I say that to Katie Jo like once a year. I feel like I'm like why do I have to care so much about healing and growing, like why can't I just not care and just live life and just have fun and just be happy? Why do I always have to be having goals and focusing on getting better? You know? So why do you think I don't know? I have no idea.
Speaker 2:Has it always been that way or did you hit a spot of awareness?
Speaker 1:No, I think it's always like I've always been into spirituality and growing for as long as I can remember.
Speaker 2:Like how lovely, but also exhausting, right. So, maybe like when we go again back to that song, like sometimes you have to go softer, like sometimes you really have to give yourself, figure out how to get a break from all of the.
Speaker 2:I always call it like climbing this mountain. You know, like we can't always climb the mountain. Sometimes you really have to stop and look out and just look at how far you've come and then, sadly, sometimes we just tumble down that bitch and you're just right back where you started and you're like I often hear in therapy like it doesn't feel like I'm any different than I was two years ago. Yeah, like sometimes you don't feel different, but you've made different choices.
Speaker 1:But make a list or something, cause yeah, I do that all the time. It's hard to measure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and healing is not linear. You're not just always going to go in a straight path like you are going to fall back down, sometimes, like there are steps back, otherwise there's no real progress. It's like the idea of yeah, but I also really in that case say like, like you're just not a problem to solve. So when you're going too hard, you know that you tend to get like self-punishing or perfecting.
Speaker 1:That's when you just remind yourself like you know what it's not all a big problem to solve and maybe running could help me with that, because I've never consistently ran. I'll run for like a month once a year and then like a couple of times throughout the year, but like never consistently, you know. So maybe, maybe, maybe that could help.
Speaker 2:It does do kind of like a brain sweep like starts you in a much more clear space, Just like meditating. If you've ever been able to stick with meditating which is so, my goodness, so cliche and so hard, it's just such a practice I've been good at it, though, and my whole personality has changed.
Speaker 1:I feel like I should ask my nephews at work, like I think I'm way nicer to you guys and like calmer, do you guys notice? Because I feel like I'm a different person since I've been really like at least 20 minutes a day. What do you think that it brought to you? What do you think it changed? Um, I think I'm just able to think before I speak. Um, not react so fast, like when something's getting to me. I mean, I even did. I still did today. I sent Isaac four emails before 7am.
Speaker 1:And on the fifth one, I'm like sorry I blew up, like like well, you know, and I don't think that I'm me, I don't think he thinks, oh, that's being mean, but to me, like, for my standards, I think I was just a little too aggressive. And so I still do that, even though I meditate, I'm still, like you know, a little bit crazy person. But compared to like how my body normally would have felt, like my chest would have been tight, I would have been. I have to figure this out ASAP and everything needs to be worked out before I can think about anything else. But now I'm just much more like take a breath, yeah, wait for things to unfold themselves.
Speaker 2:It's not that hard, but my brain doesn't do it. Yeah, I mean honestly a lot of times like neurotypical brains have the ability to grind on things and make them more complicated than they need to be. Mm-hmm. Have you ever met really fast decision makers?
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Like it can be a little scary because you're like ah, but I feel like you're not considering every single thing. You can never worry about it. Yeah, no, I'm super fast decision maker, decision making like I decide super fast and it's usually worked out for me, so foot triggers might drive you a little insane. Like long drawn out decision making, like looking at every option a through z it's super hard for me to be around people doing that.
Speaker 1:I mean I wish I could be more like that, like because, yeah, a lot of times it hasn't been good for me making fast decisions it was like this podcast.
Speaker 2:I was like what?
Speaker 1:are we gonna talk?
Speaker 2:about like I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll probably just figure it out. So you said you wanted to talk about death and oh did I, I lied well, it made me think like I am so lucky, I mean, I haven't had to deal, have too many experiences with death my grandma on my mom's side or on my dad's side died when I was like three or four, and my grandma on my mom's side is still alive.
Speaker 1:She's 96, and both my grandpas died in their 90s. And I've had some friends die but, like you know, I hadn't seen them for a couple years, so like, yeah, I haven't had these horrible you've had like the typical deaths, not not that any death is amazing, or great, but Nothing super close. But I was thinking, yeah, the most traumatic one for me was Matthew from Downton Abbey Shut up Me too, like I literally wore black for two weeks. Um, I stopped Hearing the word.
Speaker 2:Matthew is like a trigger word for me, I literally stopped watching, for, like an, I never finished the season.
Speaker 1:Oh, I finished, but then I rewatched only up until he died. Then I'm like I'm done with this show.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I actually never watched the sixth season because of that, because it was just, I don't know.
Speaker 1:It just broke my heart.
Speaker 2:It's the best. It was terrible. It was the worst choice ever. I don't know how people went on after that. I know my mom yeah, I still think about it.
Speaker 1:It's still one of the most traumatic deaths of my life. Okay. We are definitely trivializing deaths right now, but no, I know. I'm not making a joke, I'm just so lucky. Obviously, nobody is immune to death.
Speaker 2:I think we should always make a death. I mean, we should always make a joke.
Speaker 1:Make a joke about death. Let's not make a death.
Speaker 2:Actually, I think you know I've I. Um, actually I think you know I've. I personally have had a lot of very normal deaths, like not also not dealt with a lot of death. Uh, my dad is in hospice right now, which I mean at 80 you could call like a typical death, but he's my dad, so that's just dumb. No kidding, I'm kind of shitty.
Speaker 2:He's having like a nice typical death, if you can like. His symptom load is really low. He's having like a nice typical death, if you can like. His symptom load is really low. He's a very easy human to like. I don't know. He's a pretty content guy, so he's not. He's not having a lot of symptom burden, he's bored. I think that's probably the worst of it.
Speaker 2:And my mom is tired because she's doing everything, um, and and it's I don't know, I don't know that's like imminent, imminent but it's. I mean I wouldn't be. I don't know that it's like imminent, imminent but it's. I mean I wouldn't be surprised if he died tomorrow, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he lived till next year. So like that's the kind of death we're talking about.
Speaker 2:Um, in my work I deal with a lot of grief and a lot of people who deal with death and it is it's probably the thing I do the most. My hospital side work. I dealt with real live death, a lot like traumas and hard things and not great things. They were not my deaths, but I have been a witness to a lot of death and its effect and it's devastating, mm-hmm. And in the strange sort of thing that I've recently I'm say, work with, like an older population mostly is how our brains protect us from death. Because I have, you know, several older clients and they're starting to have things happen to them that like make you examine your, you know your own mortality.
Speaker 2:And it's so strange sometimes when, like, they have never done that before but they're like in their eighties, you know, and they're just like, ah, you know, super frustrated by the symptoms or the you know, the diagnosis itself, or just it's kind of like being flabbergasted about something we all know is going to happen.
Speaker 2:You know, and this like the disruption that it causes in your own you know, and this like the disruption that it causes in your own life and what you feel about it, and how frustrating it is to like lose your faculties, and that there's just like a million other kinds of grief and death, like unexpected deaths, all things, and watching people in grief is just a really sacred space because it's such a lonely place. You know, like you you may be grieving like alongside other people, but really grief is very much, I think, like childbirth, like you're the only one pushing that kid out, in the same way as that was the. You were the only person who had that relationship with that person, and whether other people are in that grief with you or not. It's a really lonely place and I think a lot of them feel like you know, they're just walking around and they look normal on the outside and are just completely changed on the inside by the grief.
Speaker 1:I can say the loneliest I've ever been in my entire life is after my dad got diagnosed with cancer and before we knew that it was going to be okay. Yeah, I mean that that the next four days were scary. Lonely would be the feeling.
Speaker 2:Yeah because all of you have a different relationship with your dad and you just don't know like you're. You're really faced with the mortality of someone that you love dearly, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think I told you this, but I spent the night at my grandma's last weekend because she fell. She's in assisted living but, um, there's only one person on staff at night and she needed to to lift her up to go to the bathroom. And I'm on the couch. Her bedroom is right there, with the door open, and in the middle of the night I heard her scream out please, god, just take me. Take me tonight. I can't take it anymore and I mean, that's just horrible to hear.
Speaker 1:I mean, her brain is there. She knows that we're reading Little Women right now. Every time if I'm not there for a week, I'm like do you remember what book we're reading? And she knows, you know. So I mean, she's so there, but her body is failing her and she's been saying she wants to die for years.
Speaker 1:But it's so funny what you said, because maybe three years ago, when she was still living at home, she had a gallbladder burst or something and we went and we brought her to Mercy or somewhere. And my mom and I are there and the doctor before surgery is like so do you want us to resuscitate you or not If the surgery doesn't go well? And she looks at me and my mom and says well, what do you guys think? And we're like you always say you want to die, but obviously we're not going to say that you should say do not resuscitate. So we're like yeah, you, you can say it. She's like okay, I'll say it. And that's happened a couple other times now too, where she says she wants to die, but like the doctors, I guess we're talking about taking her off her heart medication and she doesn't want to.
Speaker 1:So it's like okay, no, no, no, but not that kind of die like yeah yeah, not for real for like the pretend kind right don't really do it right and somebody just told me maybe it was you that, like dialysis patients, once they decide to go off their medicine, it's two days so that would be such a tough decision. But I think about that a lot, like um Kelsey has said a couple times like oh, when we're that age and I'm like when we're that age, I definitely think um assisted suicidal being legal because it is in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm so glad that you just said that, yeah, I mean, why shouldn't you be able to choose your ending without it being like, okay, we all know, like all the caveats around suicide and how hard it is and how traumatic for families, but if you are in a spot where you are just miserable anyways, guess what? That's also miserable for your family. So I really do. I really. I wrote a paper about this in like eighth grade. So I really do. I really I wrote a paper about this in like eighth grade, yeah. And you were like, yeah, I feel very strongly about it. Yeah, why? Because why would you just lay there and fart dust? That's just ridiculous and unfair. And when you're in pain or in pain, Somebody from my grade committed suicide.
Speaker 1:He was in the military and then he had such bad arthritis that he was addicted to painkillers and then he wanted to get sober before he killed himself. Um, and he talked to the pastor every day for a year, Um, but still got to the point where he did. And if there was other rules in place where he could have done it in a healthier way instead of scary? And hard for the family.
Speaker 1:I mean, you know your family might still do nothing but talk you out of it, but if you can, you know, leave a letter say I went and I just went to sleep. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I haven't been in that position, so it's very controversial.
Speaker 2:But I have an aunt who also had like a lot of chronic pain and some mental health issues and like addiction stuff. But I mean, ultimately was not in horrible, horrible, okay the and on to my eyes she, you know like didn't look like she was suffering all the time and miserable, but she was and she drove herself into a semi and that on purpose?
Speaker 2:yeah, just so that sucked because I think in right. You know it's been like 10 years but that's my mom's sister, but the worst part of it is just not knowing how much she suffered it wasn't like, oh my gosh, how did you do this? It's just like how could we miss? How suffering you know how sad you were it makes me. I want to. I just want to go back and be like hold up. What can we do to make this better? Because obviously you're so miserable.
Speaker 1:And then it was just so damn traumatic. Yeah, and so like I will admit that, like until my early 20s, I thought that committing suicide was a cowardly thing, and I don't at all anymore, just because of different brain chemical, like when I have gone through a small burst of depression, and it's like whoa if I felt like this every single day for like for years, and then when I went off and years and years when I went off of brain medication and I had these brain zaps or actually my whole body would zap.
Speaker 2:Is that a thing I think like, yeah, it is when you're coming off, maybe every couple of hours I'd have this zap and it's like people that are dealing with that because they can't get their medication right and like literally if somebody is thinking about killing themselves.
Speaker 1:I can't imagine the suffering.
Speaker 2:They're not just no it's not like, oh, I'm just being selfish and leaving Sure, I'm sure death like that absolutely happens, right, because of terrible things have happened, whatever, but I think a lot of it is just the absolute suffering.
Speaker 1:Because I wouldn't say. I thought it was cowardly, I thought it was selfish.
Speaker 2:But now it's so funny as you get older you're like, and a lot of views can change. Because absolutely not right like a lot of people just feel like such a burden and it's just all right, like the. The survivors left behind are altered innumerably, like in assessment, assessment, in psych assessment. If you have a mom, dad, if you have a first-degree relative who has committed suicide, you're like seven times more likely.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:So it leaves this legacy on top of you know, this pain and grief. However, it also is just. It is born of absolute suffering, mm-hmm. So this is why mental health moving forward and I've been in this field for about 25 years and it has changed a lot and we do talk a lot more about it. I remember being at, I think at my friend Sarah's house, and there was all of our little kiddos were around and all the kids were talking about who their therapist is and how cool it is to go to therapy. They were all these teenagers and I'm like I do not remember one child going to therapy when I was in high school or talking about it or even knowing mental health terms. Um, and so the pendulum is swinging. We're like able to be more open about it and it's not a shame. It's not shameful. It's just not shameful to have anxiety, like it's not shameful to be depressed. Those are just things that you have and also there's ways to help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when I was bartending, I went to an after party with like maybe six or seven kids that were 10 years younger than me and they were all talking about how they when they've struggled with thoughts of suicide and I was like me and my friends have literally never talked about this, um, thoughts of suicide. And I was like me and my friends have literally never talked about this. Yeah, and I don't feel like most of my friends have, or like you know. So is it like, okay, my friends just don't want to talk about it and they're also suicidal at times. Or is it the next generation?
Speaker 2:is it the and I have a weird lens because I sit in a therapy office. But I say all the time, like, when people share, like if they have suicidal thoughts, I'm like it's probably more common to have them than not to you know, like, but they don't have to be scary and the best thing to do with them is to get them out in the air, so that you know this idea that if we say it, people will do it. No, if we don't talk about it, and the isolation, that's when those things happen.
Speaker 1:You feel like you're the only one going through what you're going through. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's one of the contributors anyways. There's a million factors.
Speaker 1:The only feeling is that you're like it's spiraling, Like I'm the only one who feels this way about myself, Like if you can know that other people feel that way too, then you're not isolated, like you said.
Speaker 2:And, honestly, the most effective tool in therapy is just normalizing experiences, because so often we get tunnel vision about what we're experiencing and how we must be the only ones feeling this and it turns out eight million other people in the world are feeling very similar things and that it's completely normal. And just intrusive thoughts is the thing I think of, because you know it's maybe it's not in everybody's like mental health, like for vernacular, but I think most of us probably know what intrusive thought is at this point. But when we first started talking about it, I mean people will just come with such shame about these thoughts that you know are just so like I was afraid you know my baby was going to jump over the banister or whatever, when you know perfectly well that that was just a thought and it can just go, and you're probably not going to pull all your own hair out and you're probably not going to like eat poop out of a toilet or swerve. You know like those are just they're not, they're not happening. You have like a logical brain that will stop you from doing those things.
Speaker 2:What's the difference between SI and suicidal ideation? Yeah, just suicidal thoughts. So ideation means like you probably think about it a lot or it's an escapist kind of thought, but intent means you probably have a plan, you've probably taken steps to like, gather things to like. Really, the thing in assessment that I've always differentiated with is do you have a plan, do you have access to a way to do that? Have you thought about it? Are you actively planning to be not in this world? And ideation is, like you know, like a lot of like. We talked about PMDD earlier like ideation is a really strong part of PMDD. Um, I have not experienced it personally, but I have people who do all the time.
Speaker 1:They just fight that Like like they they make steps and then they fight not to do it.
Speaker 2:It's more like it's just a thought that's there, there's, they're probably not, they don't really want to die and they're not going to take action. It's just this sort of like escapist, like no, I mean, there's always that. It's just like a what, especially people who feel stuck, like it's a way out. Most of them would not act on it and it scares them to have those thoughts and it really scares them to say it out loud. But the best thing is to be like tell somebody, tell somebody you're feeling that way and then you can just be guided for support or help. And this is my other thing I wanted to talk about today.
Speaker 2:Holy moly, we are shitty at supporting people, humans in general. Like, first of all, people don't know how they want to be supported, because that is just not something we do in this independent society of ours. We're like oh no, I'm fine, everything's fine. I'm fine, everything's fine. I'm just over here, like handling this myself and just getting better and like doing all the things Bullshit, right. But the challenge with that is what kind of support do you like? Yeah, how do I support someone else?
Speaker 2:I'm going to just read you this dumb, stupid thing that happened today in a um, in a stupid forum. Okay, I'll actually just so this. It was like a abuse forum and this woman was basically shaming another lady for not leaving a situation and I was just being a troll, yeah Right, and I was just like being a troll about it and I was just like, hey, no-transcript Advice is usually not that helpful. Telling people what to do is usually not that helpful, but asking someone like how can I be here for you? And I feel like just text me sometimes or make sure you call me, but don't fucking tell me what to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Nobody wants to be told what to do. Nobody is in your shoes that do, yeah, nobody wants to be told what to do.
Speaker 1:Nobody is in your shoes. That does not work. It's not helpful. I'm so nice, I'm super passionate about this, but I don't know if I'm even good at doing it yet. But, um, when friends have a problem, like you're supposed to ask them. Like how do you want me to support you? Do you want me to just listen? Do you want me to give advice? Like what do you want?
Speaker 2:because I have a question about that, because I've heard negative things with that too, and that gives someone another thing to have to worry about. Well, there's like oh, that's fair, like then they have to make the decision of how they want support.
Speaker 1:I often Like so many times I've had friends like try and fix things and I'm like I really don't need it.
Speaker 2:maybe if you know, maybe you just have to take responsibility yourself and if you know how you can usually tell otherwise wait and figure out how right.
Speaker 2:And then I think somehow at times, how you're approaching, like sharing your challenge with somebody else, is sort of, if they're intuitive, they can usually catch what you're trying to lay down, but that is not always. This is where we fail, because this is why asking the question, if, okay, this is why, as a person giving support, it is okay to say do you want me to help you solve this problem or do you just want me to listen? Yeah, because most people's bent is to start solving and, like you, I have to pull myself back so hard from solving because even in like, even in therapy, it's not about assault, like no, I'm not there to solve you sent me that podcast that one time.
Speaker 1:This was had to have been last fall. I know I was driving up to floodwood and it was the sisters or who was it, but you, but it was all about that. Um, um, I don't know. We'll get back, we'll try, we'll have to look through text, but um, was it love realized?
Speaker 2:was it like it's called, like love realized? It's sort of this question about.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I'm not sure we'll figure it out, I'm not sure. But yeah, being supportive has been a big theme for me in the last couple weeks too, because, like releasing these first episodes and some of the people like closest to me who haven't said anything, I got like really down on myself and really depressed but then finally, through a million epiphanies, realizing that like okay, well, I'm not good at supporting people through death because I haven't dealt with it and I don't know how to.
Speaker 2:So like I can't be mad at other people for not supporting me how I want to be supported and uh, and maybe you don't know how to be supported Cause there's probably, if you put it like back in your court, like, do you even know what you like? Do you, do you like feedback? Do you, you know? Do you like just to mention, like, how's it going? Do you just want people to check in with you?
Speaker 1:Is like you don't even know. You're right, I don't even know how I want it, and but there's so many ways that I could be bad at it too, and there's so many different levels of how what friendship is, and it's excusable.
Speaker 2:It is an excusable offense because it is a learning process to learn how to support people, but I think just empathy and genuine concern. Being curious is one of the things that constantly drives through my head when I'm trying to listen to someone and I can be a really shitty listener. My ADHD loves to jump in and be like oh, that reminds me of this, oh, I know that and it's gross and I hate it In the same exact way, but it's how you relate to other people too Right, Because I've seen on Facebook don't.
Speaker 2:It's a big girl adult skill. It's really tough.
Speaker 1:There's two sides to it. Don't give. I can't think right now. My brain is the brain is broken.
Speaker 2:Yeah, uh, my friend matt allen. One times he he said this to me as a young social worker he goes make him sit in silence. He's like you will learn more by shutting your mouth than you'll ever learn any other way. I'm like, probably when I was that young in my late twenties, my early mid twenties, I probably couldn't even do it, and now I can do it sometimes.
Speaker 1:I'd love to say I do it all. It's probably been months since I did it, but I remember being really proud of myself when I did. I just didn't say anything.
Speaker 2:People usually share more of themselves, if you just listen.
Speaker 1:That's why I used to make James, when I wanted him to talk when he was a teenager, like if he drives and he can't be on his phone and if I just sat there in silence he would just open up and start talking like crazy. But like so hard for me to not talk for five or ten minutes, right, but if I didn't't, then I got everything.
Speaker 2:I think my girls have done a really good job, too, of helping me with this, because I am definitely a problem-solving advice giver. Right, it's hard not to be. It's a very tasky thing to do, like, oh a problem, let's solve it, yeah, but I think they've been really. My girls are really like forward with me, which is helpful because I only hear things directly, but they'll just be like no advice, please. I don't want to solve this, I just want to share this with you, or I'm just getting this out, I'm just venting. I just find myself shutting my mouth more than telling them anything. I think it's actually has made kids ages disrespectful for me to think that I have some kind of like leg up or that I know how they should be. And let me tell you, as a mom, that's super hard, right, because I'm like duh, I know all the things, but I don't know all the things and I'm not them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that's really self-aware of you to say that you only hear things direct.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, how do you know that about yourself? Because if there's any like nuance, I will batter it to death in my head and wonder what was meant. You know I like and that's a really un-Minnesota thing, right. I mean like if you can be direct with a nice tone of voice, that'll make me happier.
Speaker 2:But also please don't be passive-aggressive Like I will. It's probably the thing I hate more than anything Just indirect communication that's just being put out there to like just say what you mean, please. That would be much more helpful than this creepy dance that's making me have anxiety, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, okay, this reminded me of Veda. Do you remember when I opened the door a couple weeks ago and said hey guys, like when the sign is on, remember like to be quiet? And I came back in and you and Cody are like giggling. I'm like what's so funny?
Speaker 2:You're like we love when like bitchy beth comes out and I'm like, how is that bitchy? I was just so direct like I could not. Yeah, I don't know how else to be.
Speaker 1:You know like it was very admirable.
Speaker 2:Well, that's nice, no, especially right, yeah, veda's a very direct human, shannon's a very direct human. Yeah, it gets me in trouble, I mean and you have to find that place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think it gets me so far in trouble, you do.
Speaker 2:People have said you have to get to that place where you can soften it. I will soften it with most people, but probably sometimes not with the people I love the most. Yeah, it depends on who you're talking to.
Speaker 1:Mm yeah, uh, and my girls are really direct and it's helpful, otherwise I will just keep being kind of a bull in a china shop. Sometimes when a man is direct, it's normal. When a woman direct is direct, it's bitchy for sure 100.
Speaker 1:I know it's bullshit. I was glad my brother steve was even saying that like getting passionate about like oh, on this podcast they're talking about this and it's so true, and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like I'm so glad that you see that, because when I send you a mean text because you didn't show up for a meeting, and then I feel bad about it all day, like okay, I freaked out, a man wouldn't act like that, blah, blah, blah. But I'm like also, my nephews have like broken things. Yeah, you know, everybody's fine with that. Yeah, because if a man does it, it's just passionate. If a woman does it she's aggressive and crazy and bitchy.
Speaker 1:And like oh, she gets so emotional. Oh, but anger and breaking things isn't an emotion. Yeah, sure is.
Speaker 2:Grow up One that's literally just meant to control people. Yeah, yeah, so much to talk about Mm-hmm, control people. So, yeah, yeah, so much to talk about yay, anything else, or should we get to um? We should get to trivia. We got a little text at us that we're late. What time is that?
Speaker 1:uh, six, oh five oh okay, perfect, we can go jump in some teams we'll go oh barry bar Barry texted.
Speaker 2:Shout out.
Speaker 1:Barry. Thanks for doing trivia. We're on our way. We're on our way we're coming All right. Bye, thanks. Not comes from the Greek word sailor and means voyager or traveler. Like an astronaut searching the stars, a supernaut is one searching the inner and outer worlds of self, navigating life, consciousness and reality, striving for betterment. The paradox is that seeking and striving can create more unrest and more unhappiness. So, while calm seas may not make great sailors, I plan to explore the idea of light rescuing darkness instead of fighting it.