Supernaut
Supernaut is a podcast about spirituality, sobriety, and the spectrum of self. Hosted by Beth Kelling, this show explores what it means to seek clarity, connection, and personal truth in a world that rarely slows down.
Since beginning her sobriety journey in 2020, Beth has been diving deeper into spiritual practices, emotional honesty, and all the beautiful, messy layers of identity.
Each episode opens the door to conversations about healing, growth, creativity, intuition, and everything in between — because who we are isn’t fixed, it’s a spectrum.
Beth will be joined by guests who share their own stories, perspectives, and spiritual paths — offering insight, inspiration, and the occasional cosmic detour.
Whether you’re sober-curious, spiritually inclined, or just looking to feel a little more human, you’re in the right place
Supernaut
Scent of Memory
What happens when your childhood trauma becomes the foundation of your life's purpose? For Kristie, growing up with a mother battling alcoholism and opioid addiction could have become a story of perpetual damage. Instead, it transformed into a powerful journey of healing, purpose, and compassion.
In this deeply moving conversation, Kristie reveals how her chaotic upbringing led her to become a care coordinator in addiction medicine—a role where she helps others while continuing to heal herself. "I grew up my whole life thinking why was I and my brother not enough to overcome this?" she shares with raw honesty. "Working with these patients has shown me it was never about that." This revelation marks just one milestone in her ongoing path toward understanding and forgiveness.
Music weaves throughout Kristie's life as both escape and connection—from childhood memories of her mother singing along to records to her current role in a worship band. Her approach to healing extends beyond conventional therapy into adventure and intentional living. From her "travel challenge" (visiting one new state monthly for a year) to creating a "100 dreams list" that includes forgiving six people (herself included), Kristie demonstrates how deliberate experience-seeking becomes medicine for the soul.
The conversation explores the delicate balance of faith through trauma, the concept of being an "adult orphan," and the practical wisdom she's gained about addiction recovery through her professional work. "Nobody grows up wanting to be an addict," she reminds us, offering a perspective that bridges clinical understanding with profound empathy.
Whether you've been touched by addiction, struggle with childhood wounds, or simply seek inspiration for living more intentionally, this episode offers a roadmap for turning pain into purpose. Listen now to discover how contrast helps us know what we truly value, and why forgiveness—even when impossible to complete—remains worth pursuing.
0:00 Music as a Lifeline
6:45 The Adventure Begins
15:42 Creating a Life of Adventures
32:37 Growing Up with Addiction
52:54 Working in Addiction Medicine
1:07:18 Faith, Forgiveness, and Healing
1:19:11 Building a Grounded Life
1:34:50 Coping with Loss and Moving Forward
Hi, christy, hello, thanks for being here.
Speaker 2:Yes, you're welcome.
Speaker 1:I asked you to pick a song for us to listen to before we started. What song did you pick?
Speaker 2:It is called. It Won't Be Long by George.
Speaker 1:Birch, and why did you pick that song?
Speaker 2:That was a terribly hard question that you asked. I love music. I went in a lot of different directions, directions I dang near brought in just a super fun song, like a walkout song, just high energy, um, but I decided to go with something more serious. Um, I really love that song. I love the words, I love the concept behind it. It's really about yoloing, which is something I've been all about, especially in recent years, but, um, always. And then I really love that artist too.
Speaker 2:I'm actually gonna be seeing him tomorrow at Lake Strand, um, but I have a big joke about him. So he opened for someone else I was seeing a few years ago and I didn't know it, but I had COVID, um, and he was one of those artists who's like he's still, I don't think, overly well known, but, um, even less so at the time. He was one of those artists. That was like anyone who wants to meet me, come meet me, I'll meet you all, and I'm a big. If I like your music, like I want to meet you, I want to tell you I want a fangirl all over you. So I went and met him, not knowing I had COVID. And so I always joke, remember when I gave George Bridge COVID. That's my joke.
Speaker 1:So did you ever hear that he got sick?
Speaker 2:after that or anything, oh my gosh, that's funny.
Speaker 1:I mean he could have, but I didn't.
Speaker 2:Well, maybe you'll meet him tomorrow and we can only hope and I can apologize for potentially giving it. Was it in Minnesota?
Speaker 1:You can be like last time you were in Minnesota did you get COVID. Oh my gosh, so was that in 2020?
Speaker 2:Um, no, I think that was actually in probably 2021 or even 2022. I've only known we had COVID one time, um, and yeah, it wasn't. It was a while after. It was kind of all the rave, um, because because of how, where I work, we had to test anytime we had any illness, and it was quite a while before I actually got it, at least that I know of but yeah, the lyrics to that song.
Speaker 1:life is a lot of things, but it's not long, that's intense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:And yeah, you're really into music and you're in a band, even.
Speaker 2:Yeah, kind of a worship band. Yeah, my church.
Speaker 1:Are you still actively doing that?
Speaker 2:Yep, we play just once a month, but it's enough to kind of I think it's all that everyone involved can really handle between just all their other commitments. We're kind of all around our age and so just have a lot of other things going on, but it's enough to make sure I'm always keeping up on my skills. So and guitar guitar and vocals yep nice, yeah, awesome.
Speaker 1:When did you learn guitar?
Speaker 2:I learned originally late high school. I started teaching myself because I had just been a band choir nerd all throughout high school and then in college I even took a course or two just when we had to do all the general courses and whatnot. And then I would say, once I got into my major kind of put it down up until COVID actually, and then I started taking lessons again. Well, not really again. For the first time I really took organized lessons virtually during COVID, and so since then I've been playing very regularly.
Speaker 1:That was a smart thing to keep busy during COVID.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. Yep, and I was kind of done with school, at least for the time. For the first time in a while I took way longer than necessary to finish school, so it kind of freed up some time too.
Speaker 1:Why do you think music is so important to you?
Speaker 2:I think it was always important growing up and so it has some very deep roots. In that way I don't want to make it sound like I'm just naturally this amazing musician, but I do have some natural talent for it and I just never really did with sports or anything else growing up, so that was a part of it too. Was that came easier to me, so I really stuck with it. I think it's also just it's a way to feel your emotions, it's a way to escape. Sometimes it's a way to get you happy or sad, and I just think there's a lot of bonding you can do with people over music too. Clearly you must agree you keep having people pick songs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I say music is my drug now. I didn't always let myself feel it fully sure until I let go of other addictions and now I take music in completely.
Speaker 2:I feel like yeah, I think there's a lot of people that like songs and really don't pay a lot of attention to the lyrics, which is fine, until you really point it out, and then they're're like oh yeah, that is really deep, or I didn't think of it like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm much more of a like beat person and rhythm. But when I listen to the words obviously you get even closer and deeper to a song. But like, I've just always kind of like I've always loved music, I've always been obsessed with it, but not at the level of some people. Until recently, like now, I just fully immerse myself. Every morning I just play music as loud as I can to get out of bed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a fun way to get up.
Speaker 1:I love that. Yeah, so I remodeled my basement and want to find renters but I'm like, but then I can't listen to my music that's loud at 5am, so what, what do?
Speaker 2:I do. Maybe you just have to put in the lease agreement.
Speaker 1:I guess. So like get ready 5 am yeah makes sense to me. So I feel like you and I have probably known who each other are for 15, 20 years, and I've known your husband forever, but, um, it wasn't until about a year and a half ago that we actually, like, spoke to each other for the first time.
Speaker 2:I was trying to think about that too, because Kelsey, who we'll talk about in this story, I'm sure I feel similarly, but before that trip I know I had spoken to her and with you I'm like I don't think we had ever sent even a sentence to each other, even though we were probably in a lot of the same places at the same time yeah, exactly and then it happened to be a random trip to Canada. That was the first time we talked.
Speaker 1:Yes, fake Iceland because you, greg and Kelsey, were supposed to go to Iceland and then a volcano erupted yes, yep.
Speaker 2:So yeah, we had been planning this. Well, we'd been talking about this trip for nine months before and it was their trip, um, the two of them and another girl, another friend of Kelsey's, uh, who didn't obviously end up coming, but they wanted to go and I kind of invited myself, um, and they were happy to include me, so that was was very nice, uh, and we've been talking about it. But Kelsey really wanted to see the Northern Lights. That was her goal. That was kind of why the trip was happening. So we planned nothing. She wanted to wait until we could kind of see somewhat of a forecast.
Speaker 2:For me that was insane because I am a huge planner, um, but I'm like it's their trip, I'm not gonna. You know, I'm not going to push this, aside from the fact that in my job in healthcare I do need to request time off in advance. So we kind of got down to the wire of I need to get some days off. So we picked a date range and I took all the days off with the plan of I'll give some back or whatever. It's easier to give them back than to not give them off. So we picked our date range and then, yes, a very large volcano erupted. I believe it was in December of 2023. And we were planning to go in February. So, even still, we were like we'll still go, it'll be fine, I'm sure it's fine, I'm sure it's fine, I'm sure it's fine. Um, until it was not fine, until it got down to a couple weeks before and we kind of looked and some of the things we wanted to do we wouldn't have been able to do and we just kind of were like it's a big trip to not really have the experience we're hoping. So we decided not to do it. I already had the time off. Kelsey obviously loves to travel. She had the time off.
Speaker 2:So we threw out a lot of different ideas. We went in a lot of different directions. At one point we wanted to go to Norway, found this cruise, but then there was no tickets to the cruise and the dates I had already taken off, so then that was out. We talked about a couple different options in the US, maybe even a couple different options in Canada. Greg threw out Banff. I never heard of it. We kind of looked kind of skirted over it, whatever, and we had gotten to the point I remember at least, being like okay, this is just we're just not going to be able to go anywhere. That's how I was feeling.
Speaker 2:Um, and then I think it was me that just said well, you know, this BAMF place does look pretty fun. And so we all kind of looked more into what he had sent and before I knew it we were going to BAMF and we had at that point already figured out that Kelsey's other friend was not going to come. I had a friend who was kind of the backup because we kind of didn't want to include a fifth person. And then you know, then you need a bigger vehicle, bigger like all the stuff. But he was kind of a backup, except between the time he agreed to that and the time we actually planned it, he had decided to move to Alaska a couple months after that. So he's like, yeah, I just really can't go on this big trip right now. And then it was after we'd even booked everything that you were coming along, and that was pretty exciting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it was just two weeks, a week and a half. Two weeks. Kelsey had asked me a couple times and I kept saying no, but then I was going through a breakup and I needed him to get out of the house and I was sick of waiting around. I'm like I'm just going to leave and then he'll have a couple of days just to get everything out. And I was even to the point where I'm like I don't even care if he takes all my stuff.
Speaker 2:I don't care if.
Speaker 1:I get home and my house is empty. I was such a great trip and you and I bonded so much and we'll have to throw some pictures on here of the mountains I mean it was.
Speaker 2:So I've done quite kind of a lot of traveling at this point and it was the most beautiful place I've been so far. Um, there's a few places I want to travel twice just cause I want to do so much traveling. Hands down, I will go back. Lord willing, I will go back, probably a couple times. Yeah, just one of the best trips for a lot of reasons, but the beauty of the area was just amazing and I don't know if I told you, but I really think it was where we were all meant to be.
Speaker 2:I remember standing in a coffee shop because I'm an early bird, you and Kelsey not so much so I'd like ducked out to get coffee, because I was just too excited to sit and wait for anyone else to get up, ducked out to get coffee, and we didn't even know there was this big ski race in the town we were staying in that weekend and when I walked in they had all the um like banners for the teams and there was, the coffee shop was just decorated and all these people, for whatever reason, rooting for the Czech team. And I'm like 50% Czech. So I just instantly kind of felt like, oh, that was kind of really cool whatever, and it was at that moment that someone from home had texted me and said the volcano erupted again in Iceland within those 24 hours, like we would have been on our way there. So it was just kind of a moment of wow, we were meant to be here.
Speaker 1:It was crazy no kidding, and you're going to check this fall or next fall.
Speaker 2:Yep, this fall yeah. What are you most excited for? You know, I'm not really sure yet.
Speaker 1:Definitely not the food, because you're not a foodie.
Speaker 2:It's not the food. We'll be in Prague for four days and Italy for four days, so I'm excited to be able to visit both of those places.
Speaker 1:Are you at least excited for pizza and pasta in Italy?
Speaker 2:I'm excited for pizza and pasta in Italy. I'm excited for pasta. Yeah, I'm really excited for pasta. I did find kind of we've all talked, so I'm going with a group of my family and we're all talking about like maybe doing different day trips not all together, but there's one I found that involves a hike, and so if I actually get to do that, that's probably what I'm most excited about. Sounds like it's just also very beautiful.
Speaker 1:So we got tattoos in Banff and I told you before we started that, yeah, I wish you had worn shorts, but obviously I understand why you didn't. It's freezing and raining out and it's July next week, so for people watching, it's July and this is how we're dressed, but we'll show a picture of your tattoo. I know which picture I want to show to you. Sent me a picture of you at a concert.
Speaker 2:oh, um, after we had gotten back, yeah.
Speaker 1:I love it so much. It's of the mountains. I love my tattoo, yep, and yeah, so you're a huge adventure person in general. Um, tell me about your blog and some of the adventures that you've done in the last year, two years yeah, the last few years, um, it really started as a travel challenge, is what I dubbed it.
Speaker 2:I started that in the summer of 2021, um, and it what kicked that off was really COVID. Um, everyone, I think, has their own experience. Uh, working in health care, you know, I think I have a little own experience. Uh, working in healthcare. You know, I think I have a little different experience than a lot of people. Um, it was just hard, and especially for people who are out and about a lot in general, um, only going to work where things were really hard, and then being at home was really tough. Being at home was really tough. So I started a travel challenge in July of 2021. Um, and it was to go one new place out of state a month for a year, and I did it, except for one month I missed, but, um, it was one of the best things I've ever done. Like, when people ask you about your accomplishments, it's up there with, uh, with job and you know all the normal things. It's up there for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because people are going to say, oh, that's fun. Or like, oh, that's just fun and easy. Oh you got to travel, but it's a lot of work. I'm sure to plan a different state, 12 different states, Because there's only one, two, three, four states touching us.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it was a lot of fun. Um, yes, definitely some work, but it was just what I needed at the time. Um, so I kept a journal at the recommendation of a friend and so I had all these stories about it. So I did that. People thought it was pretty cool and then, um, it must have been 2022 sometime.
Speaker 2:Uh, that I started realizing my dog was getting old. My dog was getting old. I made the mistake of going on google finding out the average lifespan of a lab and seeing that he had outlived it. At that point, like, basically just distraught about this blah blah, uh, and one of my co-workers at the time she said you know what you should do? You should have a bucket list with your dog. So I really made it like the travel challenge, not going out of state, but just taking him one new place or doing one dedicated thing with him a month for a year. So I did that. We made it all 12 months for that. Um, and then it was last year no, excuse me, yeah, um, no, sorry, two years ago. My time frame is just getting all mixed up.
Speaker 2:So it was in 2023 that I read a book with my friend Erin, our mutual friend Erin. We have a book club I use that term very loosely because it's her and I and we are basically just reading the same book around the same time and then briefly discussing it. But we had read a book and we were into self-help for a while there, and one of the books we read recommended making a hundred dreams list is what they called it, um, basically a bucket list, but with a hundred items on it. She is a completist. She had it done probably within weeks of reading this book.
Speaker 2:It took me a year, uh, because I just really didn't know what I wanted, aside from knowing I had known I wanted to visit every state once.
Speaker 2:So that was that was my only thing on my bucket list before that.
Speaker 2:So I did list out every state that took up I don't know a quarter of the list, uh. So then it just kind of forced me to identify some other things, and one of the things I put on there was to start a blog, and I don't really even know why, necessarily, I know part of it is I'm really not on social media, and some people in my life are like, oh, we never get to hear about life. I especially think about my dad's family. They live a couple hours away, so you know they don't always see the pictures that people are normally posting on social media, that kind of thing. And then people just act like they heard about the travel challenge, they heard about the dog thing, and they just kept asking and just wanted to hear about it, and so that's kind of how I started. The blog was talking about those two things and then just it's continued into the other items on the hundred dreams list among a couple other categories that I have going on there.
Speaker 2:But so a hundred dreams that is a lot that would take me a while too, was there any prompts to help you figure out? If I recall right, it was kind of just even simple things, write them down. So for the states, it was like if you want to visit every state, that's not one thing. That's, every state is a different thing.
Speaker 2:Okay so I maybe knocked out 52 items right there well, no, because I'd already done about half, so that probably qualified for, let's say, 25, 30 of the items, um, and then, yeah, the rest was just kind of really over that year trying to figure out and slowly adding. I think at the end I got a little, a little desperate where I wasn't putting as much time into thinking about it. I was mostly just like googling other people's bucket lists and my friend Brianne, she's got a couple bucket list type things going on, so reading other people's and be like, oh, that sounds fun and adding it to mine, um, but for the most part it was pretty thought out and then how long do you have to complete it, or?
Speaker 2:your whole life, yeah, just having it written out.
Speaker 1:I can see how that's super important to have written out yeah, for sure, it always gives you something to work on cool. So Prague, um and Czech. What other adventures are coming up?
Speaker 2:so that is coming up? Yep, um, I'm trying to think so. On my 100 dreams list I have kind of a little bit of a side list because my friend gave me for my birthday not this last birthday but the year before the Minnesota adventure bucket list. So it's this box of 50 scratch off cards and at the top of the card it says a city in Minnesota. At the bottom it kind of gives you some ideas like does it cost money? Is it relaxing? What type? What? What um time of year should you do it? Like that kind of thing. But then you don't know what is on the card until you scratch it off.
Speaker 1:Um, so there's 50 of those so you can look through, be like okay, this is the right time of year, this doesn't cost any money. I'm gonna scratch this one, this one, off. But once you scratch it off. You got to do it.
Speaker 2:You got to go do it, yeah, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:So I have on my hundred dreams list to do that. So I've been doing a lot of those um over the past. Well, really since the start of this year, um, I had an injury that kind of laid me up for a couple months so I wasn't able to do as many things I would have maybe normally done. And then same with just my dog. He's, he is really old, he's 15 now. He's still here, but he does not like when we leave really very much so over the past year we've hardly left him. So I'm just really kind of trying to keep within the state and a lot of my especially travel goals were not so. So I'm really making a lot of headway on that Minnesota adventure bucket list, which has been a lot of fun too what's the scariest thing on your 100 dreams list?
Speaker 2:um, physically, there's a couple things some people would probably think is scary. I have ice climbing on there. I was planning to do that this winter but fracture double you couldn't really do it. I have kite surfing on there as well. I think some people would. On, malax is where I want to do that. Um, I think some people would think that's a little intimidating emotionally. I have forgive everyone, so some people would probably think that is kind of emotionally scary.
Speaker 1:So is there still people from your past you have to forgive, or are you thinking like for the rest of your life? Just make sure you forgive people as you get mad at them.
Speaker 2:Well, I would like to do that as well, but I think I so I actually have been working on that one I identified kind of six people, myself being one of them that I really felt like feel like, felt like I've been just holding on to unresolved hurts or pains or anger. So I'm slowly making my way through that by just writing letters that I'm not going to give these people, but just kind of writing letters that I'm going to, that I have or I'm going to then get rid of in kind of a little bit of a ceremonious way. Um, the first one, I actually let it go in a lake, like I was on the boat, and put in the water and let it go um. The other there's two others. I've written that I'm planning to burn, so yeah, so that's kind of emotionally deep.
Speaker 1:One of the items on there that's something I have to remember is like you can write a letter and then not give it to the person, and when I have done that, it feels really good yeah, sometimes I think just writing it out for sure that it stops like floating around your brain there's something healing about it, for sure so, our mutual friend. I asked her what question I should ask you and she said to ask you who your best favorite boss ever was. Oh my, gosh.
Speaker 2:Okay, trying to think of a really clever answer for that.
Speaker 2:I probably will think of something really clever around like 10, 11 pm tonight, but I think I know what she's getting at. Jen was an awesome boss, um, just so laid back, and when I worked in her department I wasn't used to that only because she had a small department of just really high performing individuals kind of working at the top of their scope, and she would even tell you she probably didn't even really feel like the manager. I mean, she was the manager but she didn't have to do a whole lot of actual managing. You know these, it was a group of people that really just were very professional. To sum up, um, and then she's just so approachable, so non-judgmental I can't tell you how many times we were talking about things that she did not need to talk to me about being my boss, but she's awesome Natural therapist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so now she's working in therapy. She's not my boss anymore, but her clients are really lucky to have her.
Speaker 1:So let's get into your job. What is your job title?
Speaker 2:So I'm an RN. I work as a care coordinator in an addiction medicine clinic. So I've been working in this role for about seven years now. Before that I did some other. I kind of worked my way up. I didn't do the four-year school, I kind of did nursing. You can start as a nursing assistant and then get your LPN and then your RN. You can go on to be a nurse practitioner if you want. So I kind of did that route for a variety of reasons. But so I've been working in healthcare since 2008, starting just kind of at the bottom and doing school through a lot of it while I was just working.
Speaker 1:So what's your day-to-day like? Are you working one-on-one with people struggling with addictions? Yep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just kind of help them navigate the healthcare system. I feel like a therapist some days, which I don't mind. I like getting to know the clients. I work a lot with them, especially in the beginning when they're entering our program, just kind of helping them with whatever they need really, um, we prescribe medication, so a lot of it's teaching about that and making sure that's going okay. But then it's also navigating referrals, whether it be to chemical dependency treatment or therapy, or meetings, rides, that kind of thing. So it's been a really tough but rewarding position.
Speaker 1:What led you into this role?
Speaker 2:So I grew up in a house that included someone who struggled with addiction, and I'm certain that's why, I'm in this role. I'm positive of it. Um, I'm actually pretty sure that's why I'm a nurse in general. I think it was just kind of a. It was an easy to come by career path for someone who was raised how I was but it wasn't a conscious decision, it was just.
Speaker 2:This is where you found yourself yeah, yeah, like I didn't grow up wanting to be a nurse, um, but when I was in college it was just kind of the path that seemed right and I think it was an easy role for me to take on. I think I can be really good at it.
Speaker 1:Um, I have a lot of natural caretaking ability, I would say um, so yeah, and you yourself don't seem to have any vices, like you don't have social media, you don't scroll, you don't overeat you I've never seen you over drink, I mean, I'm sure you probably would say yeah, I've drank so much sometimes, but I've never seen you like out of control. So what is your vice?
Speaker 2:Um, well, I am pretty bad about sugar and I know I'm, so I'm like a fangirl of your podcast. I guess I think I'm all caught up on all the episodes. So I know you talked about that a lot. Um, I definitely overindulge in sugar and I definitely will use it if I'm stressed or sad, that kind of thing. Um, coffee, I think would be the saddest thing for me. To give up, and I don't know that I even use it as advice. I for me to give up and I don't know that I even use it as advice. I really don't think I do, because I'm not someone who caffeine wakes up like I can drink this, go to bed. Um, I don't get caffeine headaches. I don't drink a pot of coffee. I drink two cups of coffee a day. If I'm just like on a rare day, I'll drink a third.
Speaker 1:But but it's not something that you're like I should give this up.
Speaker 2:Like it doesn't seem to be any reason to no, but I think it'd be the saddest thing, because it is like every day I that is how I start my day every day. I love mornings, I love drinking my coffee, um, and I think it would just be so sad to give up like physically. I hope I never have to give it up for any reason like me and blankets I talked about in my first episode.
Speaker 1:I don't need to. It's not like I'm addicted to them and it's a problem, but it was just like if I wanted to be that strong and give up the thing that would make me the saddest but we'll see if it ever happens. Do you see any patterns in the people who are able to quit their addictions, the people that you're helping?
Speaker 2:I would say a huge piece of it is that they want it to some degree at least. There's a lot of different thoughts out there about the laws around drugs and alcohol. I don't have. I can see both sides of the talk. I can see both sides of people who say, nope, they're breaking the law, they need to go to jail, blah, blah, blah. And I can see the other side of that's not going to help the problem.
Speaker 2:Um, so I think the people have been most successful. There's a piece of them in there that wants it Like they're not forced by either friends, family or the law to do it. Um, I also think especially for opioid addiction. But there's medications out there for alcohol addiction too. Unfortunately, there's not meds out there for meth addiction yet really some off-label options.
Speaker 2:But I think the combination of medication but then also some other kind of treatment is the combo that gives people the chance of the best success we have some people come in and they just want to be on medication. We will do that because we're trying to meet people where they are, at least within our program. But I think the chance of success is better if they're participating in something else as well, and that doesn't necessarily always have to be treatment. It could be counseling, it could be support groups, it could be online support groups, it could be online support groups. But just having that other piece where you're learning coping skills, where you're excuse me, learning or not learning, but meeting a new network of people, because a lot of times that's what causes people to relapse is they come in, they do treatment for a while, they're away from the situations and the people that they were using with and if they go back into the same environment, it can be really difficult.
Speaker 1:Is that the same as replacing it with something like, um, like if you're replacing it with exercise or religion or something, or do you think the people factor that you brought up is the most important?
Speaker 2:Um, I think if you can find something healthy to replace it in, I think that can be or replace it with, excuse me, I think that can help for sure. Um, because a lot of the patients I work with, they come in and they don't. I mean, they've spiraled so far out of the control like they don't have a job, they don't have, um, really anything in their life. That's like going for them, that's giving them a lot of purpose so they could be sober. But then again, if you're let's say you're sober for three months in treatment, you go back but now you don't have work. Then you have all this idle time and you're not really feeling fulfilled. Um, and it doesn't have to be work, it could be running, it could be a lot of different things, but just finding something else to kind of help you stay somewhat busy. I'm not really a believer in like busying everything away, because I think that can be unhealthy, but filling up some of that time so you're not just sitting there bored and then also just feeling fulfilled.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, um, my brain is going to. Did you ever watch that movie? Are you a movie person? What's that movie called um um, everywhere, somewhere, all the time everywhere, everything all at once everywhere, everything, what?
Speaker 2:is it no?
Speaker 1:What is that? No, so the concept that I got out of that movie is basically, if you do something different than your brain is used to doing like if you brush your teeth with the other hand or standing on one foot and you do something that different, your brain is kind of rewired. That different your brain is kind of rewired. And so I think, like at an extreme level, with addicts that get to you, you know they have to change something bigger. And for people struggling with smaller things, that's where it's like oh, stand on one foot when you brush your teeth, but I think maybe it's something big has to change. So you can't go back to the same environment. You can't just be around the same people and make no new changes and just go off of what you learned in the last three months. You have to do something extreme.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, and that's easier said than done, right? If? You have your whole life in one spot, or even I mean to cut people out of your life. I mean it's hard.
Speaker 1:Definitely Um. So how has how you see addiction changed since you got this job?
Speaker 2:Um, so to go to answer that we have to go way back. I would say so if you're good with that, I will. Yes, okay. So I grew up in a home. My dad, my parents, separated. When I was very young I don't know exactly what age, but I would guess kindergarten, first grade, somewhere around there my dad was still is an over-the-road trucker. He's more localized in recent years, but most of my life he was over the road, so between my parents being split and then his job, he was just very absent.
Speaker 2:My mom struggled with alcoholism and opioid addiction, along with just several mental health diagnoses and some physical health diagnoses that were related to her alcohol use. So I grew up in a chaotic, in a very chaotic um, very neglectful not on purpose, but that's just how it was. Um home thinking I knew a lot about alcohol and drug use. Um, and I did. I mean, I lived it, not personally, but um was affected by it. My whole life still am Uh. So I kind of had a lot of thoughts about it, a lot of hard thoughts um anger, sadness, fear of it.
Speaker 1:At what age did you realize that your mom was an addict?
Speaker 2:So with the alcohol, uh, which the summer between fourth grade and fifth grade, I can distinctly remember being in a doctor's office and him telling her she had to quit drinking or she would die. I can remember the room, I can remember everything about it and, thinking back, I actually think she had gone to treatment once before and my grandma had stayed with us and I don't think I understood what that meant and but exactly what we talked about.
Speaker 1:She came back to the same environment and so it really didn't last long so when you heard that, did it feel like a shock, or did part of you like, oh, I don't think.
Speaker 2:I. I don't think I understood the problem still, because I was so young like I understood it was serious. But I didn't understand what the problem was and I was used to her drinking like drinking so much that I mean she'd be passed out and I'd be making dinner that kind of thing. But for me that was just normal at that age. So I didn't know that everyone's family wasn't like that. That conversation led us to move here. So we moved from south of the city's New Prague up here. Her mom had lived up here at the time on Knife Lake, so my brother and I stayed with her while my mom went back into treatment and had decided at that time that she couldn't go back to the same environments. We had to move and I remember being just devastated about the move.
Speaker 2:I was still I am very social. I had a lot of friends, you know it felt like the end of the world. My mom wasn't with us, so that was obviously hard. My dad's whole family is still around New Prague, so I was leaving all of them as well and it took a while for me to grasp really the true meaning of like the addiction.
Speaker 2:All I really knew was we had to move and my mom is away now for a while. So she went to treatment, came back, we stayed with my grandma for a while and she relapsed sometime in there. My grandma this is not to say it's her fault at all, but I think for a lot of people, you know, once you're an adult, living with your parent can be really hard, and so I think, without trying, she was just kind of a trigger for my mom to end up drinking again and again. Not her fault, I just think, it wasn't the best environment for her either. So she started drinking again, went back to to treatment and when she got out we moved into our own place, a town home right in mora um. And that was when I was around seventh grade and I think I maybe still didn't totally understand, started understand a little how were you explaining it to your friends that you were meeting?
Speaker 2:I didn't have a lot of friends at my house, I would say and I don't know if they knew to ask at that young age either and at that point she had quit drinking and I didn't know this. I didn't recognize this until years later, that that's when her opiate addiction started. Recognized this till years later. That that's when her opiate addiction started. So she was sober from alcohol actually from the time I was in about seventh grade up into my college years. She, as far as I know, had not drank at all, but she was using pills instead. And were they prescribed? So they were prescribed to start with. Yeah, um, at time doctors, I think, were taught to do that. That was what you did for people in pain, and my mom had cirrhosis of her liver. She had just physical symptoms that would warrant that at the time, and so she got prescription pain pills.
Speaker 1:Did you watch that movie about the Sack family, the family who uh created oxy cotton?
Speaker 2:the movie or the? Um. There was an eight episode series on hulu about it dope sick. I did watch that and I read the book um very interesting yeah, that was with actors playing the barstone, what's his name from?
Speaker 1:Ferris Bueller's Day Off Matthew Broderick, that one.
Speaker 2:I don't remember the actors real well, but very powerful Actually. That's one of the rare times I will say that series. I think there was also a movie, so you may be talking about the movie and I might be talking about the series.
Speaker 1:Veda, did you find the one with Matthew Broderick? But I think the series was actually better than the book in my opinion and I know that's very rare- oh, painkiller is the one I'm talking about and it's literally just horrible how many people died and they knew people were dying and they were still pushing the doctors to prescribe yeah. It's so sickening yep, for sure.
Speaker 2:Um, and that's how side note, that's how I have a handful of my patients now, um, they're a little older, they've been on pain pills for a long time and now they're getting to the point where they can't find a doctor to prescribe them anymore, because our younger doctors weren't trained that way.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, it is really sad so then they're going to straight drugs some of them, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So my mom as far as I know she never used heroin and fentanyl was not the big thing it is now, um but she definitely was overusing her painkillers trading buying from people in my neighborhood, um. So she definitely had a problem and my whole high school was high slash out of it, dope, sick, high, dope, sick, high. Somewhere in there would be just like so depressed to really do anything. It was just this never-ending cycle. There was times when I can remember going to see her in the hospital and she'd be hallucinating, didn't know who I was, um, seeing things in the air, kind of picking them out and you said you didn't know it was the pills.
Speaker 1:You didn't know. That's.
Speaker 2:I didn't. I don't think I understood at the time that that's what was going on. She would not have admitted to it and at the time the whole opioid epidemic like wasn't a well-known thing, so I don't think I really knew exactly what was happening. But it wasn't until I was kind of older that I really realized that's what was happening. So, um, yeah, that cycle continued when I left for college. Um, she still was not drinking. Um, the pills were a problem, but it was kind of one of those like out of sight, out of mind things a little bit for me.
Speaker 1:What was your relationship like together? Did you hang out? Did you talk?
Speaker 2:Um, we I wouldn't say we hung out, but I developed a very codependent relationship by my mom. So, hearing all this, I'm sure there's a lot of people who are like I would be wanting to get out of there as soon as possible. I would hate my mom. I you know that sounds terrible, but when I left for college, I mean I called her every day. I did not want to be away, even though I did want to be away. It's kind of a really it's a weird situation because you're always worried. You're always worried something's gonna happen. You don't really know how to function outside of this other human that you've been like, being there and working around your whole life. Um, and it's very common for people who grow up in alcoholic or drug addicted households to develop codependency kind of habits. Um, again, I didn't know that was what was the deal at the time, but I know a lot of it now. Uh, so she was free of alcohol until my. So I moved back to this area not in with her, but back to this area in 2010.
Speaker 2:And it was that around that time that she had started drinking again. So she had moved out of the town home we had been living in into a different kind of apartment. I think she maybe didn't qualify to live there anymore because I had graduated and my brother had graduated, so that was kind of more of a family situation. She met a guy and again, I'm not blaming him, but he drank and I think that just kind of led to her drinking. I can still remember I was going to it would have been Bo's at the time, but Kev's and I was going to some event there because in the back room and I walked in and my mom was just like at the bar with a glass of wine, and that's how I found out she had started drinking again and when I approached her about it she acted like it was just not a big deal and I was so angry and so just floored by the whole situation that I just that's when our relationship, I would say, really deteriorated, deteriorated.
Speaker 2:Um, I was, I remember, still going to whatever event I was going to and leaving and not talking to her, and just that's when we had a lot of arguing, um, from then forward just about the whole drinking and her not only seeing it as an issue and me obviously seeing it as an issue. Um, we kind of went like that for a while where when we did talk, it was really on edge. Um, she got to a point where her so the guy she had been dating they actually got married. Um, he was quite a bit older than her, but I think it was the first real relationship she really had in a lot of years, and so I think it just kind of spiraled really quickly. They got married and they decided to buy an RV and they were going to go travel and they had gone on a couple trips before that and my mom never really I mean none of us we never went on trips growing up, so I was happy for her that she got to do that.
Speaker 2:And when they bought the RV, I remember thinking, good, this will get them out of here, this is what she needs, she needs a change of scenery, it's gonna help the drinking. And they left. I to this day don't know where all they went. Um, we didn't talk a lot during that, but I do remember there was a time when she texted me and asked if I came home, would you see me? And up until that point, yes, we had been arguing, but I was always too scared to really put my foot down about anything. I was too scared that I would do that and then something bad would happen. And I told her only if you're sober. And she, as far as the first, time you said something that struck.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as far as I can remember, she didn't say anything more and I knew she wasn't just based on how she was texting, you know, and it was not too long after that I couldn't tell you exactly how long that I found out she was much sicker than I knew. I found out in the weirdest way. So her husband had a relative who was a classmate of my brother and again, both of us were out of school and everything, but they still were connected on Facebook or whatever and she messaged my brother asking or saying I'm so sorry about your mom. I heard she's on hospice, is there anything you need? And for people who don't know, hospice is usually like end of life care six months or less, usually. Obviously, it goes. It can go a lot quicker and people can outlive the expectancy, but that's what we're being told and neither of us had any idea.
Speaker 2:So my brother was texting me and I can remember this day again like it was yesterday. I can remember most of this day. It was in the morning, it was a Wednesday, I was going to work. I was working as an LPN at the time and I was working with a provider who just worked half days on Wednesdays. So my brother started texting me this and we were both confused. But I was also like, okay, hospice, like six months. I wasn't panicked. I was also like, okay, hospice, like six months, I wasn't panicked. And I'd also been like this my whole life too. Like when you're raised in that environment or if you love someone who is an addict, you worry, but you're also like I've been worried before, like they've overdosed before and they're fine. You never think it's going to be the time when something bad is going to happen, even though you're always worried something bad is going to happen. So it's a weird dynamic.
Speaker 2:But, um, so I I kept working, I called, tried to call my mom, didn't get an answer, you know, I was kind of distracted by it. But also at work, um, we left, or I left work around noon and I still wasn't panicked, but I couldn't get ahold of her. And I went to the gym. I remember even, um, but I remember being on the elliptical and just being like I'm too distracted, like I'm not getting anything out of this, I'm just going to leave. I left, I drove to the library park in Mora because my service at home is crap. So I'm like I'm going to keep trying to call while I'm still in town.
Speaker 2:Tried to call her, tried to call her husband. Couldn't get a hold of anyone. Tried to call a family friend who lives around here. She didn't know anything, but she said she'd keep trying to call. So really just couldn't find anything out. And one thing I don't remember is how I finally got a hold of someone. But I did finally talk to her husband and he's like yeah, it's, it's not good. We're in the hospital, we're in Florida. Um, she had signed off for me to be able to talk to the nurses. So a nurse called me and said yeah, she's on hospice. She's too out of it. Like she's not awake enough to talk to you is why you can't get a hold of her. Um, and on hospice, that can be part of it. You know you're giving a lot of pain medication and stuff and trying to keep the patient comfortable.
Speaker 2:So at that point I had never actually traveled anywhere. This was in 2014. I'd never been on a plane, but my, my brother and I we booked tickets to get down there the next morning. He was living in St Cloud. He came to my house, we were leaving like the 6 am flight, but we both thought you know we'll just stay here and get up super early. We're not going to sleep. If we go to a hotel we're probably not going to sleep anyway.
Speaker 2:So we stayed at my house and I had been on the phone just like so much that day because I kept trying to call. Even after that I'm like I got to keep calling. I got to keep calling. I kept trying to call get the nurse. I talked to her husband. It was just like a whole thing. I can remember sitting there and my husband had made dinner. My brother and I we don't really talk about all this Like I love him, he's my brother and obviously we stuck together a lot growing up, but we've never really delved into this kind of thing, we've never had that relationship. So I remember him being in our spare bedroom just kind of off by himself and my mom's husband called and Matt was like I was mid fork like fork in the mouth and I was like I was mid-fork like fork in the mouth and I was like just let it go to voicemail, like it's fine, you can call them back when you're done eating. And that's how I found out my mom passed away was in that voicemail. And so to answer your question in a really long way.
Speaker 2:I had all these ideas around addiction, a lot of experience in it, a lot of emotion around it, and when I started working in the program I work in now, I had a lot of compassion because of how I grew up. I wanted to be that medical person that could help. When I watched medical people try to help my mom for a lot of years I had a lot of patience for it. I still do. But I would say the biggest thing for me that I've gotten out of it, and it's not about that. Obviously it's about the patient that I've gotten out of it and it's not about that. Obviously it's about the patient. But the biggest mindset shift has been I grew up my whole life thinking why was I and my brother not enough to overcome this? And it's been working with these patients that has shown me it was never about that and so that's been the most rewarding part for me not to make it all about me, but well, thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 1:Um, I didn't know any of that and honestly, I thought that your mom had died when you were in grade school. Just because of how well-rounded you are and, um, how much you have your life together, I I didn't know that you were an adult and already married and I'm glad Matt was there for you. Did you open up? I asked you when you were in grade school and moved here if you were letting people in At this point. Were you letting people in?
Speaker 2:So Matt and I weren't married yet when this happened, but we were living together, so he was there. It's not something that I've talked a lot about, um, not that I won't, it's just um partly that's me like I'm kind of more the listener. I like that. Um, partly one of the big things that comes from living in a household like that is just like a deep abandonment fear. It's something I've worked on a lot, especially in the last couple of years, but for that reason I think I'm very social. I feel like I have a lot of friends, but I let very few of them in, so it's really only like really in in.
Speaker 1:It's really only my closest friends that know a lot about this and do you still struggle that your friends and um husband will leave, abandon you?
Speaker 2:um, for sure, for sure, yeah, not even necessarily like in their choosing, but just that it would happen like they will die or they will leave. They'll move, things will change. Um, it's something that. So, over the last two years really since the time we spent in Banff I've been really working on myself a lot, um, I've been going to therapy, I've been doing a lot of self-help, a lot of growth, and a lot of it has to do with addressing these things. That I just never did. It's for exactly the reasons you said, and it's actually funny One of your recent podcasts they put it perfectly.
Speaker 2:They were talking about something else. I think it was Leah she was talking about it's almost better for people who have a drug or alcohol problem to really spiral, because then maybe they'll quit, versus people who can still hold it together. And I think not that my life is terrible by any means. I overall have been able to create, you know, a very happy and successful life, but I have never addressed this stuff from my childhood until the last couple years, and it was affecting, is affecting me a lot internally, but also affecting relationships in my life, not not just romantic relationships, just relationships in general. Um, in not so positive ways, because I'm bringing in these habits and these feelings and these insecurities and unfortunately it's coming out especially at the people I'm closest to, and sometimes it's not a big deal and then other times it can be. So I've been really just addressing that like?
Speaker 1:are you subconsciously pushing them away to see if they'll stay?
Speaker 2:there can be some of that Fondly, fondly, fondly alan on which is like support for people who um care about or love people with addictions, and then there's this kind of subgroup off of it called adult children of alcoholics and it's kind of all about this. Like all these things we kind of carry with that can negatively impact, especially relationships, but like sometimes jobs, sometimes just just other life pieces in general, and then just a lot of eternally internally sorry, not eternally just a lot of unnecessary internal stress. But yeah, sometimes pushing people away I would say lack of boundaries has been a huge thing. That's caused me some interpersonal relationship, again not just romantic um struggles. Lack of boundaries it's a big one, um, and then just kind of like always needing to be in control a little bit, and for me, when that has come out with others, it's coming from a place of caring, but it it's not always the. That doesn't always mean it's the right thing, like the intention might be good but it doesn't always have the intended outcome, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and do you see that in work too, like trying to control any of your patients? Because also, I feel like it wouldn't be odd if at work you were trying to save these people, like you know, like feeling like you could have saved your mom. Do you find yourself doing that at all?
Speaker 2:I think it's a little bit of a different dynamic at work, I would say that. So as a program, we have really tried to be like meeting the patient where they are. So I think I have a little better of a not pushing them. Also, they're not directly in my life outside of work. So I think it's a whole different dynamic. However, I will say I think I take it really hard if I'm like why aren't they doing this or why can't they just see this or that, and again that's just causing like an internal stress. That isn't necessarily because I can't control anyone, not even really myself. When it comes to a lot of things. Kind of the giving up the illusion of control has been a big thing I've been working on in the last couple of years.
Speaker 1:Where are you at? In feeling like you are enough.
Speaker 2:I think that, like I said, I think work has really helped that.
Speaker 1:Like understand addiction and that like it takes over and shuts people's brains off and there's nothing they can do about it correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it has really helped with that. I think that I'm still really hard on myself, which again can be a very common thing with some of these um codependency things, like just judging yourself really harshly, um. But I think as far as there's people in my life where I'm like, okay, I feel like, yeah, I am good enough, maybe just not for myself, and even though I do feel better, um, there's still that like fear of abandonment, like if it's not a choice of theirs, it's just going to happen otherwise. You know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. And you said one of your hundred dreams is forgiving others and yourself. Where are you at with that?
Speaker 2:So I mentioned six people, myself included. I've written four of the letters. So there's two I still have yet to write I feel like I'm just not quite ready and then three I still have yet to do anything with. So they're written but they're not kind of released. So I think that that exercise really helps. There's a couple. I've been reading a ton of self-help books not all so serious like you know, some about just like scheduling and things like that but a lot have been pretty serious and I read a couple just on forgiveness. So I've done some exercises in those as well, kind of on a consistent basis. Um, I heard from a different podcast that forgiveness and acceptance is when you can not wish something would have happened differently, like that's how you all know, um, and so I'm kind of using that a little bit to judge if I really have forgiven these people. Um, it's kind of like the bar to when I'll know, like hey, I really have let that go.
Speaker 1:I really like that. And how about yourself? Can you share what you want to forgive yourself for?
Speaker 2:um, a lot of. It is just like I mentioned, some of the habits that I've brought into my life and into the people I care about or have cared about's lives that unintentionally have impacted them in negative ways. But again, I just judge myself super harshly. So even mistakes I've made that are small, I just have a hard time forgiving myself for being human, really Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:So maybe it's like an ongoing letter for you yeah, yeah, yeah, there's this, um.
Speaker 2:There's something that there's this concept of reparenting have you heard of that? Or inner child healing. It can. Okay, those are the same thing essentially, um. So that's something I've been working on. Since therapy is inner child healing, it's probably the number one treatment for all those codependency, adult children, all that stuff that I talked about. Um, that's going to be an ongoing thing forever. So, ongoingly, continuing to forgive myself when, when I I am human, um will be a part of that.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. Um, you had mentioned liking something we talked about in a different episode, talking about how people do what they're emotional, emotionally capable of, um, with Mike Gunderson. Um, so do you realize that about with your mom that she was doing what she, just what she was capable of?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure I know that, um, I don't know all the details, but I do know that she had some traumatic events happen that probably led to her addiction. I know that genetically she was also very predisposed, um, so she was one of four children in her household. One of them committed suicide when he was pretty young. Uh, the other two also struggled with addiction. So even knowing those things, it's helpful, um, but as the child you still just think you should have been enough. So it's hard to kind of underwrite that.
Speaker 2:And again, it wasn't until I saw it in other people from a little further away perspective that I've really been able to understand that it really wasn't about that. But yes, I did like that. I think that that's also where I'm at. I think that part of why I didn't work on this before. Aside from that, I didn't see how it was impacting me, and even when it was, it wasn't always like in these detrimental ways. But I think that people kind of work on these issues when they are feeling emotionally ready and maybe in a more safe and stable environment.
Speaker 1:So you have a strong faith in God. How does all this play into that?
Speaker 2:Well, I have been a little all over when it comes to church throughout my life, not really not because of this per se, but because of our move and such.
Speaker 2:I grew up in New Prairie going to a Catholic church because that was like that is still the big church in that town, this beautiful when you think of like a big Catholic church. It's like that when I lived there. That's where everybody went. I don't know if it's changed since then, but, um, that's where everybody went. So I did first communion through there and that's what I thought of as church, right. Um, we moved up here, we did start going to the Catholic church in town for a little bit and there just wasn't the same, you know, feel, I don't think and we, through a, through that family friend I mentioned later, started going to a Baptist church. So I went there for a little bit. Um, somehow and I still to this day do not remember how, but I got connected with a youth group at Pomeroy Chapel, which is just a non-denominational church, and that's where I spent my whole high school, like going to that church, just me, not the rest of my family, somebody else from the youth group would pick me up and I loved that church. I thought it was so great. And then it was right around the time I graduated that the pastor left, and then obviously I left too, and pastors are kind of like teachers or kind of like a lot of things where they can kind of make or break it. Um, I remember they didn't have one for a while, and so that's how I stopped going there and then during college it kind of didn't really go, and then when I came back it was hard to find one that fit.
Speaker 2:Um, I tried going to my now husband's church. At the time that was a Lutheran church. It was not for me. I know I disagreed with a lot of things there and this is not to like crap on anyone's religion by any means, but I knew it was not my thing. And it was actually when we were looking for a pastor to marry us that we went back to the Baptist church that I had gone to a little bit with my mom and there was a different pastor then during that time and we met with him and my husband actually really liked him. So he married us and so we went there for a while and then again it was during COVID that he left the church. So then we kind of again not really had a church home until the last couple years we started going to a church in Iowa.
Speaker 2:That's just a non-denominational church. So, to sum up, I've tried a lot of different things and I know what I absolutely am like. That's not for me. For me, I think one draw I have to the non-denominational churches is they seem more about the relationship and not so much about the traditions and I I think there's a place and a time for traditions. Um, I think that some of my just yearly traditions are like what I look forward to in the year, like I'm not saying that should be out of there, but I look forward to in the year, like I'm not saying that should be out of there. But I've been to churches where I don't think we talked about Jesus, because we were just saying this prayer and standing up here and doing this and I left there just like okay, that's fine, but this is not like meaningful to me.
Speaker 1:This isn't helping me get closer to God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so right now I am probably the most close to feeling close to Jesus or feeling the deepest in my faith that I have in a long time, because I've been more focused on the relationship. Um, because I've been more focused on the relationship and I will say, um, I'm on a I'm on a year long challenge of reading the Bible. I will say, the more I learn, either through reading or through church or through wherever, the more questions I do have, so there's a lot of just like unanswered things for me. However, I think that that's kind of good in a way, um, because it keeps me wanting to learn more.
Speaker 1:Do you ask God? Does he ever tell you the answers eventually?
Speaker 2:um, I think eventually, most of the time, eventually, at least, and this was even before um, I think a lot of times when it comes to big things in our life, we understand eventually why they happened or didn't happen the way that we expected or thought they would. But I just mean kind of in general, when it comes to some of the biblical things like questions, I can only ask when I someday get to heaven, right, so, yeah, that's been really interesting, right, so yeah, that's been really interesting. But I don't I think that like any hard thing, when you have faith in something like God or whatever, you can ask kind of why, why did things happen this way? Why did I have to grow up this way?
Speaker 2:Why Did you ever get mad at God for taking your mom? Oh, um, for sure I have. And that's the one thing when I, when I brought up um that quote before about acceptance and forgiveness. I truly think that that's true. To truly accept accept something you can't you have to like, like, um, not wish it was different, right, I think that that's true, except I don't think I could ever not wish my mom was here well, that would feel like abandoning her and letting her down, wouldn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, it would feel like that for sure, and I think that, no matter how hard it, I will always wish she was here, even if life is maybe better or easier without her here, because there's just always that. Well, I don't have this thing that most other people in my life do. I don't have this adult that is supposed to be there for me and whatnot that is supposed to be there for me and whatnot. So, yeah, I think it can get to a point of being angry. For sure, I think I've kind of moved past it with that, but I do think it's easy, when hard things happen, to get angry at whatever you believe in, whether it be God or the universe or whatever else. I think you can kind of have this step back and trust and that kind of thing, but I think it's how you move forward that is most important what was your favorite thing about your mom?
Speaker 2:gosh, that is a hard question. Um, I would say two things. I do think that she is part of where I got my love for music, both in a happy way and a sad way. I think music was an escape for me a lot of times growing up, but I also think that, or I know that she loved music. I remember her telling me about going and singing karaoke, and I never saw it except at home, and a lot of times she was drunk and I never saw it except at home, and a lot of times she was drunk but it would be the record player and her just singing along and looking so happy.
Speaker 2:So, um, that is uh, that's something that will always make me smile, even if it was during a time of just drunken whatever. Um, and then I can also, even though it's not my favorite smell, I can also just like almost get a whiff of her if I just think hard enough about it. It was a sweet pea, vanilla mixed with cigarette smoke. It's kind of that. But that's kind of a big nostalgic thing for me. I still have one of her shirts and it's amazing how cigarette smoke does not come out of clothing, but it still just kind of makes me smile when I go smell it, even though that's obviously not the best smell in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it's comforting. It's from your childhood. I listen to a podcast about smells, and vanilla is an overall smell that's universally loved because it smells like breast milk. Oh, and the smell that is universally disliked is rotting bodies.
Speaker 2:Well, I guess I would kind of hope so.
Speaker 1:But otherwise, even if you grew up around sulfur or skunks, you're going to like that smell when you get older, because it was the smell of your childhood yeah, I mean, I think they say the scent, the sense of smell, is one of the most powerful things to bring back memory. I think yeah, um, do you have a favorite memory of your mom?
Speaker 2:um, I can't think of one in particular, but I do think being at the lake. So my grandma mentioned she lived on knife lake. So during the time we had moved up here in her early years of alcohol sobriety, we spent a lot of time on the lake and I remember her fishing and I remember her being happy and it's part of why I love going to the lake so much.
Speaker 1:You do love lakes.
Speaker 2:I do love it. It's not the only reason I love it, but it's definitely part of it, and so those were some of my most fond memories, I think my grandma being there too, you know she was able to kind of help out a little more, and it was probably when my life as a child felt the most stable, or would have been in those couple years when she was, before the pills, free from the alcohol, and then there was another kind of stable adult there.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm glad that you went and tried more churches instead of just giving up. A lot of people probably go and see that strict lifestyle and see that they're not getting a relationship with Jesus. They're just reading hymns and super stout about it, and I think that's something to remember. Is the contrast of this planet is what makes us know what we like and what we don't like. So the more you're seeing what you don't like because people will just be like oh, I don't like that, I want nothing to do with it you have to pay attention to the things that you don't like because that helps you know what you do like.
Speaker 2:The contrast is so important?
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. Yeah, good job on that. Back to work, or well, actually, here's something you told me that sometimes you feel like an adult orphan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:So that loneliness yeah, and this is just an example. But my husband, he grew up in a family that no family's perfect right. But when you think of like the family, it was the perfect family, right. Parents are together, um had a happy household and his obviously our relationship is the deepest relationship I have. Um not to discount anyone else in my life, but don't get mad, aaron. Yeah, exactly, but I am so happy he didn't grow up like I did. I would never want that for anyone I care about, but sometimes it is hard.
Speaker 1:Is there a little bit of jealousy there?
Speaker 2:I don't think it's jealousy, I think it's just like you said, the feeling of loneliness, the feeling like it's hard when the closest people in your life don't really understand. And where we live, you know, there's not as much support for that kind of thing or a lot of different things, right, um, just being rural, there's not a lot of, you know, support groups, there's not a lot of people who've experienced this type of thing. Um, they're out there, don't get me wrong, but it just it can. It can be really lonely for sure. Um, it's hard.
Speaker 2:You know, I went through getting my first house without having my mom there at all. I went through my wedding without having her there and that was the hardest moment. The only bad piece of that day was that. Um, and then just now, you know, when big things come up, I don't really have that and this is nothing to discount my dad either, but we've never had that relationship either. So I don't feel like I have that kind of adultier adult I am very much an adult now but that presence or that guide I look to kind of, obviously, other people in my life for that a little bit. But I also feel like I'm kind of on my own when it comes to being the adult.
Speaker 1:I know when I feel lonely and I ask God, like why are you putting me through this lonely stage? And he says so that you get closer to me. So maybe God just wants you really close to him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've heard that a lot. Actually, I've read it a lot. I've heard it a lot, yep.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:Yep Sometimes, um, that's the only way, right, mm-hmm?
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, let me see what else I have. What do you wish people knew about people in recovery?
Speaker 2:Sometimes I wish that they knew what these people had gone through and I only say sometimes, because it's not everybody. So addiction does not discriminate is one of my favorite things to say. Discriminate is one of my favorite things to say. I have patients who were had that perfect childhood and who were popular in high school, captain the football team even, and didn't really necessarily experience like anything horrific that still ended up in addiction. However, I would say that's kind of more the exception than the rule. Most of the people I work with have gone through trauma that is unimaginable, and so I wish that they, I wish people took a step back and thought about that before judging people with addiction and really put tried to put themselves in these people's shoes and thought like, if that happened to me, how would I cope? Because sometimes it's with an addiction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but even the other people, because I'm going to butcher this name. But I read the book Never Enough by Judith Grizzle or Grizzly, something like that, and it's. I barely understood the book because it's all science, it's all about the receptors in our brain and how they're all different sizes and so and different drugs sugar, opiates, alcohol the different drugs fit in the receptors differently, like fill them differently.
Speaker 1:So that's, why we all like different things. That's why some of us like sugar is not a big thing. Um, gambling isn't a big thing for some people. It doesn't have to do with our personality or what we grew up with as much as it does how our receptors in our brains are formed. So some of these people that haven't had trauma full things happen but like try something one time and can't quit. It's just the way that their brains were developed, for sure, and people are so judgy about it and look down on people so much they do.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, for sure. The other thing I wish people would just remember is that nobody grows up wanting to be an addict, even if that first drink, that first pill, that first whatever was a choice it can quickly spiral into no longer being a choice. So that's the other thing I wish people would remember.
Speaker 1:Yeah, honestly, I think the reason I am so passionate about addiction is because when I was like 20, I saw an Oprah episode.
Speaker 1:She always Oprah wanted to get to the bottom of things and find out why people did what they did. And so she had some drug addicts on and had their brains scanned and, like, would show their their brain normal and then show them a street sign that they used to get drugs from and a part of their brain would light up. And they said to get drugs from and a part of their brain would light up. And they said that was the decision making part of their brain and it light lighting up because it would shut off. So like and that's me with sugar like I'll say all day I'm not gonna eat sugar, and then you see something and you end up eating it and you didn't consciously make that choice. It's just that part of your brain shut off, so like. That hit me so hard back then and I think that's why I've always had compassion, um, and that's why I want to talk about it as much as possible to figure out how to stop shutting that piece of our brain off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:How do you stay grounded?
Speaker 2:Um. So I've always been a big proponent of healthy lifestyle not to say that I do everything perfect by any means, um, because I definitely still struggle with sugar, I'm definitely still doing unhealthy things at times, um, but I have always been really big into kind of more natural therapies, even as a medical professional. I'm not at all saying people shouldn't be on medications it is absolutely necessary at times but I like to practice from a very holistic standpoint. So if we use, um, let's use restless leg syndrome for example, I have that, yeah, um.
Speaker 2:So I recently went in for that as well. Um, but the provider I saw she's like, okay, let's test for this, this and this, because I could give you this medication and it probably will help or we could try to figure out why. So, especially in our society where I think a lot of times it's easier to just take a pill, I'm kind of more of the yes, we might need a pill, like we might very well need a medication, but let's also do this, and those are kind of the things that I've built my life around. So exercise overall, healthy eating again not saying I don't indulge, not using substances as a crutch, like you said. So for me, I do drink alcohol and I have had moments that I'm not proud of drinking alcohol, for sure, but I also and this is probably also from how I grew up I monitor very closely. Why am I drinking alcohol? Is it because I'm out with my friends? Is it because I'm celebrating? Is it because I'm on the boat and having a white clown staring at the water Sounds like perfection? Or is it because I'm stressed? And is it because I'm sad? Is it because I want to sleep, like those kind of things? So, making sure I'm not using anything, for that is one piece of how I'm trying to stay grounded.
Speaker 2:I'm a big exerciser. I think I mentioned I was never good at sports. I tried them all. I was never good at them um, terrible. I think I'm not coordinated, but I do really enjoy working out just on my own. I love running I've definitely gotten more passionate about that um over the last couple of years but just any kind of workout on my own, whether it be weightlifting or going to I mean I shouldn't say just always on my own going to classes. I love trying new exercise classes, things like that. I think exercise is huge for both your physical and mental health.
Speaker 2:And then some of the just things you'll hear from every medical provider right, trying to get enough sleep. If you are overtired you're not going to cope with things as well. Trying to eat healthy more than not. And then spiritually, just kind of having some spiritual practices. I should say that really helped me feel fulfilled and grounded. I think that's another aspect. I'm just going to list off all the things. I think having people in your life that are supportive they can be helping, you know, help ground you as well. For me, therapy has been really beneficial. Big proponent, excuse me, I'm a big fan let's say that of therapy, even if you a lot of people, I think think to go to therapy you have to be like in the, you have to somebody died or you're going into an abort, like there has to be a big thing, right? No, not true.
Speaker 1:I go because it's Thursday.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly. So I've learned some grounding techniques there for sure that involve, you know, some meditation. I'm still absolutely awful at meditating, but I'm working on it. It's on my 100 dreams list. I have to learn to meditate. But even just there's like a 5, 4, two, one technique. So like naming five things, you see four things, you hear three things, you smell um two things, you feel one thing, you taste that kind of thing, um. So I incorporate a lot of different things to to answer your question, to stay grounded probably keeps you really good at your job um, I hope so.
Speaker 2:I hope it can help. You know, I I try to encourage a lot of these different things with my patients, and this was even before the current patient population. I work with um because they can be so helpful, especially in a society, like I said, that is so focused on taking a pill. Um, you can do a lot with eating better and exercising. You can do a lot with eating better and exercising.
Speaker 2:You can do a lot with making healthier choices overall. Again, not saying you're never going to need a med or that you don't also need a med, but medication can't fix everything.
Speaker 1:And also think about, like who wants you to take this medication? What are they gaining from you taking this medication?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true. I'm sure there's a lot of that out there.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, because what is something you would change if you were in charge of the mental health in America, the system that you work in? What is something you wish you could?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a tough one. I wish that there was more access would be the biggest thing, especially for pediatric and especially again for therapy and different kinds of therapy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what do?
Speaker 2:you mean access for pediatric. So if you live here and you are a youth and you need a mental health specialist, it is really hard to find without either driving or waiting. With adults it's a little easier. I know we have one psychiatrist at the hospital. I know we have one psychiatrist at the hospital, but I would say the hospital I work at has facilities in Mora or Keneba County and also Pine County and there's very few psychiatry options in Pine County. So even as an adult it can be a wait to get into a place for mental health. And then the other thing is, for example, I was just working with a patient who's super depressed, wants to die, like active thoughts of wanting to die, but no plan on acting on those thoughts. But she does not qualify for an inpatient psychiatric stay because she's not sick enough, even though she's struggling off and on with substances, even though she wants to die, even though she's not taking care of herself physically, even though she's having hallucinations so we keep telling people just talk about it, talk about it.
Speaker 1:But even talking about it now isn't helping, because there's nothing people could, there's nothing that can be done well, things can be done.
Speaker 2:But it's just kind of this fine line of are you sick enough to need to go because we only have so many beds? So it's kind of, uh, it's hard because you, or even I, see people and I'm like they need help, but they're just not quite bad enough to get the help they need.
Speaker 1:So, like twice this week I've talked to people about postpartum depression and how you know, 20 years ago, maybe even 10 years ago, if you were having the crazy thoughts of killing your kids, you didn't know that that was hormones or that there was something that you know it wasn't your fault. You were having those thoughts. So, like, go talk to somebody about it. Back then you didn't know like people thought that they were crazy and so they didn't tell anybody that they were having these thoughts and that's how kids ended up dead. And so what I've said twice this week is well, now people know, you know, talk about it, talk about it. But, like now, I'm super discouraged because it feels like even talking about it isn't going to work.
Speaker 2:Don't be discouraged. So there's definitely help. It's just I shouldn't even tell you not to be discouraged. Sometimes I'm discouraged too, so sorry, you can be discouraged.
Speaker 1:Well, I was the one who asked what would you change?
Speaker 2:I do think you should talk about it A hundred percent. I think you should talk about it 100%. I think you should talk about it. Um, it will hopefully lead to help. It just might not be as fast as you would think. You might have to struggle through insurance stuff. Um, I just wish there was less barriers to getting the help. Less barriers, more access.
Speaker 1:I wish that we were as close with people as we used to be. My grandma talks about my grandparents, their neighbors. They were with seven nights a week, Five nights a week playing cards. One night a week going dancing, the other week just hanging out.
Speaker 1:Or the other night just hanging out and all we do is sit at home on social media Not you, you're really good at peopling and not being on social media but because, yeah, when you can't get help from the doctors, you need help from your friends and family, but we are all just secluding and isolating ourselves these days. A hundred percent agree.
Speaker 2:There's a little bit I'll do, a little bit of a devil's advocate. That will hopefully make you feel better, because I do think there's people out there who would be uncomfortable to say something in person that they will maybe actually say over social media or text or whatever, um, which is not always a good thing when it comes to other situations, but when it comes to this, that might be the only way they would open up.
Speaker 1:So you could think of it like that. So I guess technology is good, that. Yeah, maybe back then they wouldn't tell their neighbors the problems that they were having, but now they can go to BetterHelp or these other online places and talk to strangers and not even have to leave their house if that's too hard. So, yes, there is good too.
Speaker 2:It's both, that's even have to leave their house if that's too hard. So yes, there is good too. It's a really good point. It's both, because then you could also argue is the isolation actually causing a lot of this? So I know it's kind of this whole thing I know.
Speaker 1:Okay, what else did I have? Was there a story? Did you have a good story about spreading your mom's ashes? Oh my gosh, did I tell you that already? Well, I was looking through our messages and I sent you a clip from a video of Tony Hitchcliffe from Kill Tony. He was talking about spreading his ashes in the spreading somebody's ashes in the ocean, and it was a disaster. So I couldn't remember the story, but I sent it to you for a reason, so I thought there was a story there yeah, and it's not.
Speaker 2:Actually, it wasn't my mom's ashes, um, it was my grandma's. So, yeah, um, I had held on to her ashes. I still do have my mom's and I eventually will spread those two, but I was kind of holding on to them. I wanted to spread them both around the island on Knife Lake that my grandma's house looked over. That's where her son who died when he was young, um, that's where his are spread and I knew if I was gonna spread them, that's where they'd both want them for my mom's. I really want my brother to be able to be there if he wants to. So that's what's kind of been waiting there.
Speaker 2:But, um, if you know about knife, like it's great and then it's green in like two or three weeks, I feel like um, so I always just miss the window. So last summer I was like this is happening. I'm spreading my grandma's ashes this year, like let's go, let's get the boat, we're going. So I was just bound and determined to do it. Windy day and, uh, we get on the boat, my husband, my dog and me. We start going and as we're going, I'm like I'm testing the waters a little. I've never dealt with people's ashes, so I don't know what they're like, um. So I kind of like dump a little in there and I I don't know what I was envisioning. I was envisioning they would sink or I don't know, but but they were very clearly there Like it was very discolored water. I'm like, well, I don't want to dump too much of this. And other boaters are like what is happening? Blah, blah, blah. So I stopped putting them in the water. I'm like wait till the island, it's fine. And I don't know if I was so unconsciously nervous or just ready to get over with or what. But we get to the island, I want to spread them. I hop off the boat, my dog hops off the boat, matt's on the boat like probably figuring out something I don't know. I start walking up there and I start just spreading them right away, just without even really like stopping to think or say anything or anything. So I start sprinkling them out. Also, they were not in, they were just in like the most ridiculous tin can, like my mom had them before me when I was what she was thinking when she put them in this tin can. But so I'm like shaking them out of the can and I didn't realize my dog was right behind me. So I turn mid shake and he just walks right into them and I'm talking like covered. My dog is black. His face is white, covered.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you've ever touched human ashes. They are different than like fire pit ashes. Fire pit ashes after a bonfire I feel like you can go kind of, they'll blow away. They're light, whatever. My grandma was like a paste, like literally thick. So I'm trying to brush them off and I'm not I mean, i've've not I've seen dead people at work. I've not like dealt with this side of it, but I'm also not really grossed out about anything like that, probably because of work. So I'm not really overly grossed out at the time of just trying to wipe them off.
Speaker 2:But the wiping is going nowhere. He's covered in ash. I'm like, ah, scream. That's like what my quail is in the ash. He's like what he looks over. He's like you weren't gonna just stop and like say anything about your grandma. I'm like I guess not, I can't get it off of it. Whatever, he's like get him to the water. So I drag him into the lake and again I'm trying to wipe him off, thinking the water would get the ash off. No, it is literally making a thick paste. At this point matt runs over, he gets a bucket. He's basically waterboarding willy. We can't get all of it off. What do dogs do when they're wet? Shake my mouth's open. He shakes it's in my mouth. It's just, it was like a scene from a movie and I can picture it. It was like a scene from a movie. Yeah, it was. I don't even know what to say about it. Everyone I told just was basically like well, I hope your grandma likes dogs.
Speaker 2:I don't know, because that's, that's that oh my gosh so my grandma is a little bit on that island, a little bit in the lake a little bit on Willie forever yep.
Speaker 1:Willie's 15 he's 15 how are you?
Speaker 2:preparing. Oh well, my friends tell me I've been killing him off for a couple years now, which is true because I started that bucket list a couple years ago. Um, I've never had so I've I've lost one pet before this. Growing up, I never had pets. So, um, I lost a cat a few years ago. Uh, she got hit on the road and that was really hard. I mean, it's never gonna be easy. It was really hard in how it happened, just traumatic, feeling really bad, like we let this happen. You know all this stuff and it would have been sad either way. We had that cat for two years.
Speaker 2:Willie's been my baby, since he was eight months old and he's now 15, so it's just a whole different thing. Um, it's teaching me to just appreciate every moment. Um, I want to spend as much time with him as possible, which, thinking about it, sometimes sounds ridiculous, but I've, over the past year, both Matt and I have really like formed our lives around him. We try not to go anywhere more than one night when we can't bring him because he just really seems to want to be with us, which is like so sweet, but then also so hard, because you're like you can know, you can tell it's just because he's anxious.
Speaker 2:Um, I think it's gonna be real rough. I know it's gonna be real rough when he goes. I mean it's gonna be especially. It's not the same. But as someone who doesn't have kids like he's my baby and they say animals can pick their humans that's how I feel. Like he's my soul dog for sure. He 100% found me and, yeah, it's going to be tough. But I think the memories we've made with him that bucket list and then just the past year, like we've done a lot of camping so that we've been with him that bucket list and then just the past year, like we've done a lot of camping so we've been able to take him I haven't done as much traveling as far as out of state or on a plane, that kind of thing but just beautiful memories that we weren't, we weren't doing as often before we did them. But there's just a whole new feel to it now when you're like really appreciating it and living in the moment, like you said.
Speaker 1:I think that's the lesson like. If you can carry on with that after he goes that you're appreciating every day that we have here and slowing down yeah, yep, for sure yeah what is something that you do right now that you hope your God children do when they're your age?
Speaker 2:I hope that they try or do or go to, et cetera, the things that they really want to, even if they have to do it alone.
Speaker 2:I think that's something I've always been good at, um, I think that comes from how I grew up, and then also just my dad too. That is one thing he's really good at. And I think, as women especially, it's pretty uncommon, like I remember, um, being at this at heydays if you know what that is and being mostly with a group of guys and going off and wandering by myself just because I wanted to, and some of them making comments like, geez, my wife won't even go to the grocery store by herself, like that kind of thing. Um, and that's nothing against anyone who's not comfortable doing that, but I do think that it's one of the attributes I have about myself that I really like, because you're not always gonna have someone to do things you want to with and I just I don't want to miss out on anything, whether it's something small or like going to a movie or something like getting on a plane.
Speaker 1:It might not be everybody's journey to do things alone, but it's definitely mine, and I think that might be to understand my mom more because she's so introverted and, um, just understand why she she likes being alone so much. So I went to like 10 concerts last summer and my very last one I went to by myself, my first ever solo concert, and it was the last one I went to.
Speaker 2:I've heard that I have a friend that loves going to concerts by herself too. Yeah, don't have to worry about anybody getting too drunk, and then you have to take care of them either yeah, that's a plus and you can just be on your own time and you can just really listen to the music and what is something that you do right now that you would hope that your godchildren don't do when they're your age?
Speaker 2:I hope that they can live more in the present even though I am getting better at it, I'm in my head a lot instead of just really living in this present moment. Um, I do a lot of ruminating past things, especially negative things, and then also just future things. I hope it comes easier to them to be out of their heads and in the present more.
Speaker 1:I decided to start journaling on Saturdays about the future, because I live too much in the future. I don't really live in the past.
Speaker 1:I don't think Right now, I don't think that I, I don't think that I, I don't know, I might say something different in an hour but, I think about the future too much, and so I'm like, maybe if I just like give myself an hour every Saturday to journal about what I want for the future, then I won't always be thinking about it and I can stay in the now more so we'll see when I start that I don't know if I will this Saturday or not oh, you haven't started it yet.
Speaker 2:Gotcha um. Have you heard of Mel Robbins? Love her yeah, she said something about doing that, making a ritual on Sundays to kind of just brain dump about. She was kind of more focused on just the week ahead, but yeah, to kind of brain dump about all the things you're thinking about about the week, kind of more focused on just the week ahead, but yeah, to kind of brain dump about all the things you're thinking about about the week, kind of just get it out.
Speaker 1:So look at you have you read her book the let them theory?
Speaker 2:no, but I've listened to so many of her podcasts that I almost feel like I know about the book enough without reading it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did the exact same thing. I had listened to like three, four podcasts. I'm like'm like I don't got to get the book. But then I was having a really, really hard time with somebody and I was stuck with them for a few days and I was like like I need to read this book, you know. So I downloaded it and listened to it and there's a lot more information than just getting it drilled in over and over and over again. I mean, I still then just getting it drilled in over and, over and over again.
Speaker 2:I mean, I still would recommend you'd recommend it all right, it's really good.
Speaker 1:A lot of stuff that she hasn't said in her podcast okay, I'll put it on the list. Awesome. Well, anything else that you want to share no, just um.
Speaker 2:I'm glad I could come and be supportive of this. I think what you're doing is really awesome thanks, thanks, thanks, so much for being here.
Speaker 1:Knot comes from the Greek word sailor and means voyager or traveler. Like an astronaut searching the stars, a super knot is one searching the inner and outer worlds of self, navigating life, consciousness and reality, striving for betterment. The paradox is that seeking and striving can create more unrest and more unhappiness. So, while calm seas may not make great sailors, I plan to explore the idea of light rescuing darkness instead of fighting it.