Supernaut
Supernaut is a podcast about spirituality, sobriety, and the spectrum of self. Hosted by Beth Kelling, this show explores what it means to seek clarity, connection, and personal truth in a world that rarely slows down.
Since beginning her sobriety journey in 2020, Beth has been diving deeper into spiritual practices, emotional honesty, and all the beautiful, messy layers of identity.
Each episode opens the door to conversations about healing, growth, creativity, intuition, and everything in between — because who we are isn’t fixed, it’s a spectrum.
Beth will be joined by guests who share their own stories, perspectives, and spiritual paths — offering insight, inspiration, and the occasional cosmic detour.
Whether you’re sober-curious, spiritually inclined, or just looking to feel a little more human, you’re in the right place
Supernaut
Still Here: Surviving Between Songs
A single song can change the way you see yourself. Matt joins us to trace how a 90s anthem cracked open years of numbing, pushed him into detox, and ultimately set him on a path toward sober structure, honest self-talk, and a new kind of purpose. This isn’t a glossy redemption arc; it’s a grounded look at relapse, the shock of bloodwork, and the quiet rituals—movement, meditation, reading, nature—that rebuild a life one day at a time.
We dig into what it means to drink to not feel, and how divorce, shame, and old wounds can turn into fuel for avoidance. Matt walks us through the moment he realized he had to take it seriously, plus the role music and silence both play as medicine. Service becomes a turning point: working at a treatment center, learning to accept help as well as give it, and building boundaries that let him care for others without abandoning himself. He shares the mirror ritual that reshaped his inner voice and the “three good things” practice he uses with clients to interrupt self-criticism.
We also go straight at life and death. Matt talks about two suicide attempts, the isolating logic that convinced him others would be better off, and the unexpected phone call that kept him here. We unpack the statistics that changed his mind as a father, the myth of perfection, and the strength that comes from being simply good and human. A phoenix tattoo—born from a drawing by someone he supported in treatment—becomes a living symbol: let the old skull burn, rise again, and keep going. If you’re curious about sobriety tools that work, how therapy actually helps, or how music can hold you when words fail, this conversation is a steady hand.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs hope, and leave a review to help others find the conversation.
0:00 Setting The Table: Music And Meaning
2:30 Why “Nutshell” Became A Lifeline
5:10 Sobriety Timeline And Relapse Honesty
8:30 Hitting Bottom: Detox And Shock
12:00 Drinking To Numb Divorce And Loss
16:00 Tools, Therapy, And Cravings Reframed
19:20 Service Work And Finding Purpose
23:00 Rebuilding With Structure And Routine
26:00 Non‑Attachment And Identity Beyond Music
29:00 Training To Counsel And Give Back
31:00 Mental Health And Better Self-Talk
34:00 Parenting Through Divorce With Care
36:00 Life, Death, And Suicidal Ideation
40:00 Being Heard, Supported, And Safe
43:00 Divine Interruption And Staying
46:00 Regret, Growth, And Imperfection
49:00 Religion, Control, And Compassion
51:30 Phoenix Signs And A Tattoo Story
55:00 Pain, Choice, And Generational Weight
58:00 Therapy Fit, Insight, And Agency
1:02:00 Reflections, Compliments, And Identity
1:05:30 Hopes For Kids And Habits To Quit
1:08:00 Closing And Future Topics
Welcome to SuperNot, where we explore the inner and outer dimensions of the self. Today I'm talking to Matt Berry. We're going to talk about the importance of our mental health and self-talk, life and death. The conversations we've had leading up to this have been so fascinating, so I'm sure it's gonna be super fun. Um, what song did you pick for us to listen to before we started?
SPEAKER_02:I chose Nutshell by Ellison Chains. Um I just feel that whole song. Um I always did. Um as with a lot of music from the 90s, like it's kind of I mean, I I didn't grow up, grew up in the 70s and 80s, but that's when I was really kind of hitting my stride. Um so many of those songs like hit me then in a certain way, but I don't think I really understood them fully until years later and I got sober. Um and especially that one. I just feel every word. Um and I don't know. It it's helped me out in many times of darkness, which for some people songs like that can keep them down, um which certain songs can, um, but ones like that can really make me stop and think in like as far as how far I've come and how far I've grown. Um in even that line of you know uh if I can't be if I can't be my own, I'd feel better, Dad. Um that helped me in the sobriety aspect of things, um, as far as I have to be my own my own self, and that's when I'm happiest. If I'm trying to be someone else for something, or something else for someone else is when I that may work for a while, but it just I have to be true to myself. And that song helps.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the word nutshell in itself implies being contained, controlled, reduced, like a soul trapped in a small space, yearning for something, more spaceships, being unable to break out, the loneliness of self-awareness, the ache of being seen but not known, the exhaustion of carrying your truth and silence. So, did it help to know that obviously if somebody's writing this song, they're feeling that way too? Did it help to just is that why you like listening to it? Because it's uh it speaks to you so much and you know that you're not alone in that feeling?
SPEAKER_02:Um, in a way, yes. Uh actually a time like in 2001 when I was going through a hard time, and then actually after like something in 2004, um it was a song like that, but then also an album from Wilco that was like a very a lot of it had depressing like tones to it. And at that moment I was like, oh my god, someone understands me. Uh this is my friend. Um there's so many things I I've had great friends, or I have great friends, you know. Um, but the thing is I've never opened up like with things that have happened or shared certain things that I that I should have, and maybe who knows how it would have turned out. Um but this way it was an easy way for me to get help without having to say anything. Because here this person was just talking back to me and understood.
SPEAKER_00:Amazing, you know, because you're such a music person, like I think you love music more than most people that I know. So uh was it hard to narrow it down to this one?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, definitely. I mean, you know, I I it it can always depend on kind of what type of mood I'm in or whatever. Um, so when I was thinking about this one, it was uh kind of knew what we were gonna be talking about, and I wanted to get specific with one and not just, but yeah, there's many. Um and the whole thing is there's many songs that I love and can listen to at any point. Um, unless I'm maybe in a certain mood, like if I'm super down, like I don't want to hear it. I want to hear something else, or maybe I just want to hear nature. I don't know. That's the whole thing. I mean, music can be found for me, not just through your phone or your iPad, you're you know, through CDs or or whatever. Um there's so many times you can just step outside and hear the quietness, but then hear the sounds, if that makes sense. Um, so I I don't know. I think music can be everywhere. And yes, it is kind of a religion for me, if you want to look at it that way. Um because it does mean a lot to me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and so this one related to your sobriety, how long have you been sober from alcohol for?
SPEAKER_02:Fully sober for over two years, uh, two years on August 14th of 23. Um started the journey June 22nd of 22, went back in August of 22, and that's when I felt I really started taking it serious. But then that next year there were still some ups and downs and some lapses in there, um, or even relapse. Um, so that wasn't a perfect year, but then from August 14th of 23, or yes, of 23, I've been sober.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I recently apologized to you because you had reached out to me in maybe 2022.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I think it was even before that.
SPEAKER_00:Maybe even before that, because I think I want my year, yeah, in 2022, but I had been slowing down a lot before that. So you reached out and I responded, but not um super helpful. And so I apologized and said, you know, I just wasn't healthy enough myself to know who I could help because I had tried helping people before, but they like, you know, weren't serious, or maybe you know, dragged me down a little bit, and you were like, No, don't be sorry, like some events that would have happened that crushingly hurt you is your words. You said, but you wouldn't have the life you have right now if those experiences hadn't happened. I mean, again, just everything happens in the right timing.
SPEAKER_02:That is true. And no, and that I don't even know if I was ready.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Then I had a lot of things going on too, and it was like I, you know, um, and that's where I think when I responded back to it, I was like, no, no, no. Like, because I don't even know if I was really ready. I I don't know what I was searching for, if I was going the correct ways. Um, and it, you know, I I had that thought of going, um, and it was getting really bad after like I moved out of the house. Like Lee and I knew we were gonna be separated, but we tried living together for a while, and I think I started getting pretty snarky and shit. Um, and it was like, okay, time for you to move out. Um, and in that time, I could see the girls by going to the house. Um, and there was a weekend she was gone, and her dad Mark was gonna come and stay with the girls. So I was with him until he came over, and we talked probably an hour and a half. Like I was just gonna leave, and he kind of walked out with me and just asked how it was going, and then next thing I knew, you know, it was dark out, and I was very convinced. Actually, I knew at that moment I was gonna be going to treatment Monday morning. That was on Friday night, and I worked and spoke to the social workers throughout the weekend, and then come Monday I was told to go to the ER and detox all that stuff, and which was a huge shock when I did that. Because I didn't realize how bad I was I had gotten.
SPEAKER_00:But that was the moment that you realized how bad it was.
SPEAKER_02:Um, when I stopped and I was in the hospital when they like I went to work and like I said, you know, talked to them right away and went down, and I felt completely normal. And when they did all the blood work and all this stuff, you know, um, I was shocked at my blood alcohol content. Um and that's when I knew, like, holy shit, I was I am a professional drinker that I had not drank for at that point 14, 16 hours, and yet that much was still in there. And then over the course of the next couple days, realizing you know I couldn't walk, I didn't have function, I couldn't write. Um and then it was like about a week and I was in treatment, and slowly but surely things started coming back. Um being able to walk without feeling like you're gonna fall down or all that stuff. I don't know, it was scary to realize that it had gotten that bad, and that's you know, it was like, okay, I gotta take this serious.
SPEAKER_00:Had you been contemplating quitting drinking for on and off, I'd say for probably at that point decades.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, at point certain points, you know, I think I've always known I had a problem because but I'd always associate it to if I got in trouble or if I was missing work. Well, I'm going to work, I'm not getting in trouble, I'm doing this, I I'm functioning, I I'm totally fine. Um, but the thing was looking back, and it wasn't maybe like an everyday thing or every you know, whatever, but 90% at least of the time I was drinking, it was to get fucked up. That was it. There's no point in having a beer.
SPEAKER_00:You know, yeah, I've said that this before in here, but like when I bartended and people would come in for like a drink or two, like I would watch them, like, I just don't understand how they can have one drink an hour. Who are these people?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, it I uh with if I'd have a night like that, where it would be have two drinks the whole night, whatever, and it was fun, and you'd wake up the next day, you'd be like, Oh my god, see, that's all I have to do. That's it, and everything's good. But while that's not gonna stay. I mean, that that's a you know, that would happen once every how often, six months, a year, you know. Otherwise, yeah, you're drinking pretty much just until you weren't keeping your eyes open.
SPEAKER_00:To not feel, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, and that's what it definitely got up to one point. It was did not want to feel anything, and that's in my drinking when it like last two years, last year for sure of drinking. I didn't don't think I had a beer, you know. I mean it was all vodka, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um what were you trying? What were you running from? What were you numbing?
SPEAKER_02:At the end, I think my whole life I've been numbing something, and we've kind of touched on that a little bit. Um, where I've just felt that I've always been running from who I really am or who I've wanted to be um for various reasons, but at the end it was divorce, uh marriage coming to an end, um and all those feelings, and then remember when my parents got divorced and what we went through as children and what I went through. Um and then here my daughters are going through that, and here I disappointed, you know, my wife, my you know, my partner, uh and failed that. So that brought back just so many like things of failing the people you love. Um and that was really hard to deal with. I didn't want to deal with it, I didn't want to think about it because that's how well that's how you get over things. Um so I would just drink until it passed out. Um, and then like a week after I moved out, I almost lost two parts of my fingers, so I was out of work for three months. So that coincided very much with my alcoholism, because then being out for three months, not at home, I was staying out of friends, but basically in a bedroom that was like eight by eight, and shit, I was passing on three times a day, you know. I because I didn't I didn't want to deal with what my life was going. And I did think at that moment this I I don't know the point of living at this point. I don't know why, and that's unfortunately a prevailing thought I've had for a very long time. Um you still have um no, I I mean now, you know, therapy, um, being sober for my addictions. Um I'm not gonna say I never have or never do. I mean, I have bad days and everything, but at least now I have the tools to help myself kind of stop and and be like, hey, you know, kind of let let's reframe this whole thought process here. Like, okay, it's bad today, you know, but today is today. But so good to positives, you know, I'm sober, I'm you know, I have a house still. Um in here going to bed, you know, with a clear head. Um, and just being able to do that helps. No, I'm not. I also will be in have depressive episodes that will last a while. Um those can be difficult.
SPEAKER_00:Do you consider drinking again in those moments?
SPEAKER_02:Uh honestly not drinking. Um if I, you know, I I think honestly, I can say like twice I've thought of like, oh my god, I think I need a drink, and I think about vodka, because that's all I'd want. And like I'm just thinking about it now, and I've like getting a sick feeling, you know. Um, other no, it'll go to you know, other drugs um that are heavy and not good for you.
SPEAKER_00:Um did you have addictions to other drugs or just had fun?
SPEAKER_02:Well, pills um on and off in the last time was like in 2023. Um exiles had neck surgery and uh in early 2023, and that's when pills kind of came a factor, and then I know I was drinking some, then I had a stroke. That helps with being able to not have that thought process of drinking. Um so I don't know, I had a lot just going on. Um I kind of forgot where I was going with that though.
SPEAKER_00:Somebody asked me last night if I am not drinking right now because I don't want to or because I feel like I shouldn't. And I'm like, I don't want to, you know, I I don't have any urges to. But when I do have an urge to, it's not because I miss the actual act of drinking, it's because I miss who I was when I drank. Um after one drink, I mean I'm instantly more fun and I'm so funny, and I try now. I'm like, just pretend like you're drinking and just be funny, but like nothing comes in my head, you know, and I'm like, I just feel like I don't have as much of a personality. Do you do that?
SPEAKER_02:No, I mean I get that. I struggle with that in all my talks that I have with myself. Um, but then it's like I think that's one thing that I'm so glad that I went to treatment, and I'm glad I went three times um for when I needed it. Um, I don't know what if someone can cure themselves in 28 days. I I more power to you if you can. Um I don't want to sound like an asshole, but I'd questioned if that was a real addiction or if it was a problem for that time. Unless I mean, not to say people can't do it, because people can, but you have to work and you have to be willing to put that work in. And there are people that do get that right away, so I should probably strike half of what I said there. Um, and but for me it did, but then I also because like I I work at Recovering Hope, and that can be a treatment center for women, inpatient and outpatient. Outpatient is both men and women, um, but the inpatient is women, and that can be like a three-month-long program. And right away I was like, oh my gosh, how could that be? But thinking of it, I mean, it took me three months, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um and what's your role there?
SPEAKER_02:Right now, I'm a residential advocate, so I kind of work at the front desk and I'm there for support or transportation or uh just making sure everyone's there, you know.
SPEAKER_00:And you purposely seeked out this place because you wanted to be a part of helping other people recover, or I did.
SPEAKER_02:Uh, one thing in treatment that I really found I've always felt I wanted to be some sort of a counselor or therapist.
SPEAKER_00:Um I'm sure service is a big thing.
SPEAKER_02:Services, um treatment, yeah. Oh, huge. You know, that's one of the things that they really push for you to get get involved with something, you know, and service to people is one. Um a huge one. Um, but like for me, I didn't know what to do, and I didn't think I could help people if I'm walking around a piece of shit, you know, kind of a thing. Um, and then in treatment, I I was I noticed how much I was helping other people, and it felt so good, you know. And in one of my stays, I think it was my second time, my counselor pointed out, it's like, you know, you you're awesome with other people. Have you ever thought about therapy? And I kind of said I have, but I just didn't know what. And and he was like, Well, I'd obviously look into this field, but in the meantime, take care of yourself. I'm like, what do you mean? You know. Um, he posed a question to me that made me think really uh a lot about how we can deny other people from helping, you know. He was like, I see you or we see you helping all these people, you're like talking with them, and they they say, you know, you're helping them, this and that, you're very graceful or whatever, you know. And um, but do they help you? And I said, No, I don't open up to them. You know, like that, I'm there for I'm here for them, you know. And he posed it like, well, why are you denying them the satisfaction of helping others? Right. I'm like, holy shit.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Uh because I was gonna say it's almost selfish service because of how much you get out of it. But but you have to, yeah, it has to go both ways.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it does. And then after that, I was like, wow, okay. And that's when a lot of it changed, where I was there for anyone who felt like they needed to talk or you know, open up or whatever, but not sound cold or anything. As soon as that conversation was done and they walked away, or I did, that was done. It was back on me because that's what I needed. Um, and that helped me tremendously in the and then getting out the last time I made a decision. I'm like, I am, you know, a huge thing is that uh helping others to service the connection with others, and I tried all that my first two times out, and then there was a year break, and then I went back and I I said, I I'm kind of doing the opposite. Um instead of connection, I'm gonna deconnect. Now, with that, it wasn't just I'm gonna sit at home and not do anything. Um well, the first thing that I was totally unhappy with in my life that I had to get rid of was my job. Think about my job, it financially kept me going very well. Um, and I knew that was gonna cause that issue, but I had to, for my physical, mental, emotional well-being, had to leave. And then I said, Okay, I have enough money to last a few months. I I'm not gonna do anything, I'm not gonna look for a job, I'm gonna concentrate on myself. And that was the thing. I wasn't gonna sit around and do nothing. I was gonna plan my day out, maybe even the whole week out, and kind of treated like I was in treatment. You know, at this time I'm getting up, I'm gonna do this, you know, meditate here, do a little workout, do some reading, watch this TED talk, or watch this video, and then kind of just kept that realm. I'd leave the house to do stuff with the girls, or if I'm gonna go for a walk or do something, you know, get some sort of exercise or movement in. And that's what I did. Um, and I felt I grew quite a bit, but then it was also like I should probably talk with other people eventually, you know. Um, and then that's when I got a I saw that opening at Recovering Hope, and I applied there and got a job out there. Um, but then for a long time I was using that as my social uh time to um, you know, go to work and come home and be like, hey, I I got human connection for eight, ten hours, you know, that's cool. Um, but then you know, you kind of come to realize too, if that's all you're doing too, then that also becomes kind of your life. And I don't want work to be my life, you know. I need that whole balance of personality. What if the place closes?
SPEAKER_00:What if exactly it burns down, and then okay, you don't have a job or a social life.
SPEAKER_02:It's funny. Can I say that because uh that's the whole thing, you know? How many times are we always looking toward the future? It's like when I become this, it's gonna be this, it's gonna be that. I'm gonna what's gonna fulfill you though? That extra five dollars, or what you know, shouldn't we gotta charge for ourselves right now? Kind of a thing. That way when we get there, it's how much better.
SPEAKER_00:But well, and we've talked about it a couple of times about non-attachment to things. Um, because like I've said, music is my dog, but like what if music gets taken away? What then is going to fulfill me? And you talked about how playing guitar is one of your things that keeps you grounded, um, makes you feel alive, has kept you sober. But what if you lost your fingers and you couldn't play guitar anymore? So like you can't even be attached to that because what happens?
SPEAKER_02:Well, that that's what I kind of went through there at the beginning of 22. Um, and that's when I noticed that so the only time I haven't been able to, once I've learned to play guitar, not that I play well, but it does help. Um so the only time I wasn't able to, I turned to drinking heavily. That was my only coping skill that I knew. So I have thought about that though, since I've been out of treatment, because I have to look at that for everything. It's like so many relationships I've had have just torn me apart because that I did the whole old way of thinking, the Jerry Maguire, you complete me. Um I almost puked a little. Um, where that's how I grew up thinking that's what you needed, you know. Um so when I would lose girlfriend, or when I lost, you know, our marriage. Holy shit, was that devastating? I was the worst human being. How could I ever be loved? How could this or that? Well, I'm gonna turn a guitar, you know, help me a little bit. Uh no, now I can't. Don't have fingers. Um, just drank and drank and drank. Um, so now I would hope I have the skills to like be able to help um navigate that. Because I I did actually just think recently, I'm like, what would that what would I do if that happened again, but it was permanent? I'm like, well, I still like playing the drums kind of thing, percussion, you know, and maybe something like that. And you know, if I've lost the ability to do any sort of music or whatever, then I guess I'll cross average then I because I don't know what I would do.
SPEAKER_00:What if you lost your hearing completely?
SPEAKER_02:Lost hearing, um, that would be terrible. Um just for any aspect, but I mean, I think I do use vibrations or sounds or music so much um to now sometimes ground me. Um a lot of times I don't think I really make it to make me feel better or worse or anything. It's just uh um I don't know. I just like having it played, and now like I said earlier, I think um there are certain songs that I will have turned off at times, or I mean, even if it's too poppy, and I'm like, I don't want to hear this right now, you know. Um but if I lost all hearing, I don't know. I don't know what I would do. Uh probably at this point, maybe I could hear music and then learn sign language and have people sign me the words.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, okay. Well, back to your job now in the treatment center. So you are going back to school to be a counselor?
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:How's that going?
SPEAKER_02:Uh it's going good, it's hectic. Um, it'll get really hectic in the spring, which I feel bad about because it's Layla's senior year. But she's been awesome and very understanding. Um, so that helps. Um, but yeah, uh springtime week classes, and then in the summer I can start my like internship at recovering help. Hopefully, yes. Uh, I do gotta let them know. I was just told that the other night. Well, you gotta tell like the right people before all the spots get filled up, and I'm like, yes, I'll get it on the radar. So that is the hope though. And then after all that's done and I become a counselor, I don't know. I mean, if there's something open there, um, obviously, I I would like to try to stay there. Um, at least to start my career, because I don't know what demographic or whatever I really want to work with. Um so it might be one of those things too. Who knows what the landscape will look like, you know, where once I have the hours and I'm a licensed counselor, who knows?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean let the universe guide you into where you've fed. Um, what happened to make you understand the importance of mental health specifically?
SPEAKER_02:I mean my well-being, just noticing the difference and working on it and dealing with things that come to you instead of just pushing aside. Um I just feel it's made me a better person. Uh more aware, maybe more empathy, um better listener.
SPEAKER_00:You brought up self talk. How do you touch yourself differently now?
SPEAKER_02:I still at times will be negative at times. I mean, that that's where I struggled the most with. I was always a piece shit. I always deserve bad things. This is, you know, some bad that's you deserved it, you know, no matter what it was. I always made that excuse it was my fault, or I did something to deserve it, uh, which isn't obviously true. Um, and it started in treatment my first time, where they it was kind of brought up, you know. And one of the counselors she said, it can be as silly as telling yourself you love yourself, you know, and a bunch of us kind of laughed, and she was like, No, seriously, like, but look yourself in the mirror and tell yourself, you know. And it's that I remember hearing that years ago, you know. I mean, everyone just kind of laughed about it, and all of a sudden it's like, Well, I'm here, whatever, you know, let's try things. So every morning I'd wake up and be going to the bathroom, whether it's before, shower, after, be like, Hey, good morning, Matthew. I love you, and uh, you know, and for a while it is a joke, or it's like, yeah, whatever, fucker, or something, you know, and then all of a sudden, like one day I said it and I was like looking into my eyes, and I'm like, Yeah, no, I do. You know, you are something, and you have something, you know, fucking let it go, you know. And from then it be it was a daily thing for quite a while, you know, because it's not something we can do, we can't be kind to ourselves or talk to ourselves nice for a week or a month and just be like, we're good for the rest of life. Um, so many things are like that. It's not a quick fix, it's something where there's many things where I haven't thought I've grown, or I I just don't understand this or that, this or that. And then it's pointed out to me a time later, like, no, that's but you can't explain it, but you're living it, and it's like, okay, that's cool. Now that I'm living it, now with time will come that chance to be able to explain it or you know, come up with better words to use. Um, but the whole thing, and that's one huge thing, though. It's self-talk, it's the thing I I talk about even with clients out there. Um, if you hear them say something about themselves, you know, I mean you try to stop them and just be like, hey, no, say three nice things about yourself. That was another huge thing um in treatment where it would kind of start a joke, but then it became really serious, you know. I mean, people would I'm such a piece of shit, you know. I do what no, no, no, no. Oh, stop right now, Beth. What are you? What no, three good things right now, and it could be whatever that can start out silly. Oh, I have nice shoelaces, I have whatever this or that. Yep, okay, you got three things, but at least it's three good things you said about yourself. That's a start.
SPEAKER_00:Um I have a coworker when I started at the job I'm at, who when we first started working together, he would say stuff like, Oh, yeah, I'm dumb. I don't know why I did that. Or, you know, and he said it at least once a day until I finally said, I think I had to bring it up three different times. I'm like, your kids are gonna hear you say that stuff. Like, there's no way you're just saying that at work. If you're saying it at work, you're saying it at home. And I then finally, after three times, I think I'd said it harshly enough, like, stop talking shit to yourself out loud at least. I mean, it's gonna take a lot longer to stop in our heads. Yep. But the first step is stop out loud. And it's been a couple years since I've heard him say anything negative about himself. Maybe he does when he's not around me, but but you don't hear it.
SPEAKER_02:So like it's a start.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Or he doesn't say it in front of you, you know. Um, but no, that's true. It is a start. And you brought up a good point because, like, especially like when my daughters, when they started getting certain ages, I'd think, wow, back to my childhood, or or when I was going through a divorce. Um, you know, I was thinking of the impact on them. Um, and how I and I know Leah has too, like, try to make it as normal as possible, their lives. Um, but there's still times I think back and I beat myself up for it's like, oh, how did I act in these situations? Or how how is that gonna impact them, you know? Um, but then the thing is too that saves me, I guess, is like, well, that was recognized, and I will say what I do know from the divorce on it, I feel not to say the whole time it was all great or anything, and it took a little bit um probably for me to grow up a lot. Um but they I the girls see that that you know there is no sort of this hatred or this or talk behind, you know, anything. Um and I think that only helps. I mean, it can't hurt, that's all I know. Um, because I know what can't that nasty side of things, how that can hurt. Um so I don't know, we just try to do the best we can. And for me, that's staying free from alcohol. It works for me.
SPEAKER_00:You said you wanted to talk about life and death. Is there anything you want to say about death?
SPEAKER_02:Um Well, nothing is known except that you won't be here. Um there have been times when I did not want to be here. Um And the thing was looking back, you both times uh you know, I think one time it was I I've attempted suicide twice. Then I'll admit to. Um one time it was just kind of like a quick reaction. Um the other time I I but both times I didn't have anyone talk to. Um and it was not like one instance it had been building through time. And if I I feel if I would have just opened up and talked.
SPEAKER_00:Because you said you don't have anybody to talk to, but did you you just couldn't see or feel who that there was people around, you wouldn't let them in?
SPEAKER_02:There were people around me. I could have. I didn't know, but like my friends, I didn't I didn't want to let them into any part of that. Uh they knew me as one way, as as um fun, happy, sometimes moody and difficult to get along with or be around. Um, but that's how they knew me, and that's I didn't I don't know if I felt embarrassed to like talk about it with them or like bring my problems up. Um, but then even just going to talk with someone, whether it was a pastor or a therapist or or mom or someone, I just never did.
SPEAKER_00:Well, clearly we don't know, and you didn't know how to let people help you either. We talked about that just a few minutes ago about um in treatment when they said, Well, you're helping everybody, like, you know, so that's clear.
SPEAKER_02:It is clear. So, and that's just how I felt. And I I don't want people to feel that way. There's always someone, you know. Um, I think sometimes we get caught up in I would get caught up in one person. I want that one person to talk to, and I can't now because I fucked that relationship up, you know, and therefore, since I can't talk to that one person, I have no one. That's what would be going on in my head.
SPEAKER_00:That's how it feels.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and which is so wrong. Because that is when you do it like I'm alone, there's no one for me, there's nothing, no one understands me. Um, and just I just want people to talk. And you don't have to talk about your problems. Sometimes, you know, it just I mean, don't get me wrong, it is very good, especially for me to talk about my problems if I'm going through things, uh, just to get them out and air it out, and in a space of no judgment.
SPEAKER_01:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02:That's huge. You know. Um, there's times when people are talking about what they're going through or, you know, an issue at hand, and all they want is to talk. They don't want advice, they don't want, they just want a listener.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and we're so bad at that because we just want to help and we want to give advice and we want to, but most of the time listening, and we've talked about that a lot is asking people, how do you want to be supported? Although Veda said, you know, then that's decision fatigue because people don't know how they want to be supported.
SPEAKER_02:But that I've struggled with that though, with that question, how can we support you? I don't know how to answer it. Um, the first time in my life I really heard it like out in real life or whatever on a job was at recovering home. And I didn't know how to answer it. And now looking back, I wish I could go back a year and be like, okay, now I get what you're asking for. Um, because even at that time, I mean, I'm still early in my recovery, obviously. Um, but it was like, oh, this issue's happening. How can I support you? Well, you can support me by getting more people to work or what, you know, or so, you know, it'd just be like instead of stopping and thinking, like, hey, this is what's going on, I don't know, you know, just explaining like what I just said. Well, this is what's going on, and I don't really know how to ask for what kind of support, but this is how I'm feeling, and this is what's going on. And even through that, you could probably come up with a conversation where they're like, Well, how about if we try this or that? Be like, oh, yes, thank you. That'd be great. But I wouldn't even wasn't willing to get that, you know, because you'd be like, I don't know, I don't, I don't know. Sometimes my brain just shuts down, too. It goes into that fight or flight kind of kind of thing, and it just wants to hide and curl up in a corner, and there I am standing in front of whoever.
SPEAKER_00:And you got to the point also where you felt like the people in your life would be better off without you.
SPEAKER_02:Um let's see, when I when when in the 90s or whatever, when I attempted, uh, yes, at that point it would just be like, why? For one, no one's gonna miss me. I'm just kind of a screw up.
SPEAKER_00:Uh because does it start off as I like it's just it's just too painful to be here. I don't want to be here, and then morphs into it'd be better with people would be better off without me.
SPEAKER_02:You know, I think that's probably a thought process leading up to it. Um, you know, that's maybe like the your ideations of it, you know, be like, okay, like for me, it was just I I could not understand what happened. And it was just something again in life that happened that I could not wrap my head around with no good reason in my head like why it happened. Um and I didn't know why I was living, you know. I I was still in that like uh I well, I was in this period of time, time of my life where searching for the purpose of life or the meaning of life. Um and I don't know, sometimes I feel if you're searching for that so hard, you're really missing out on what is right there. Um but no, so that that was just like a very prevalent thing, and it's like if I'm just going to keep screwing up, why am I here? So I don't think like that one was more of they'll be better off. That that was my second attempt, was the thought that everyone will be better off. Um and the first one I think I was just sick of life. I was done. I didn't get it. I I yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And the second time you uh had read a stat about children whose parents had taken their lives. So with your daughters, it was was it still like they'll be better off without me?
SPEAKER_02:I don't think I really thought of it then. That came out like kind of after, um, to make me like not want to. Yeah, be like, hey, okay, I you know, if I do this, you know, in my mind right now, they I mean they'd all be better off. I mean, you know, whatever. Um, but it gives them like a 65% more chance of doing it themselves, and it's like, well, that would just lead me, you know, even in death, I'd be blamed for things, you know. Um, and I don't want that. Uh I don't want to put that burden on them because then you know, uh stop and think about it, it's like, no, that's very selfish of me. Like, what my problems are so bad, so big, that I gotta take care of it. My problems will be done with. Well, what about the problems I'm leaving? You know, yeah. Well, I grew up Two children without a dad, two children, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I grew up thinking it was selfish to take your own life, but people in that mind state are literally thinking people are better off without me, and they're believing that it's not just that I realize it's not selfish, but now I realize also that like people who are in that much pain, I mean they you can't think straight.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And to be in that much pain to want to leave this earth, to think that that's selfish is um just mind-blowing to me now. Like I don't find it selfish at all.
SPEAKER_02:Because there is um, I don't know, sometimes there's a lot of thinking in with it and sometimes not. And and I I just feel for the people that have that mindset though, or are in that mindset, um, because I've been there feeling that it would be better a place without you. Um and in your head, yes, you're taking away other people's pain because you've caused them pain. You know? And so yeah, it can be hard. So many things are in cycles that can be hard to bust yourself out of, I guess.
SPEAKER_00:And then there was a kind of divine intervention moment the second time with a friend.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. Um phone was ringing. Uh I wasn't gonna answer it. And but after I attempted, it rang again, and I just kind of answered. Um and didn't say what I did, but I think she could tell what was going on. Um I I had been drinking and uh whatever attempted and she knew someone was off, whatever. And I don't remember if I said anything to her like very bluntly. I I don't think I did, but the police were over like five minutes later after we had hung up, and I tried to kind of play like why are you here, kind of a thing, and they're like, Oh, concerned person called, and tried to play it off. But I knew one of the deputies, and they came in, then I told him what I did, then he saw like the room and was like, Alright, you know, you gotta go in. And I'm like, No, I don't, you know, and they're like, no, you don't, but you should, and even just that like, yeah, you're right, you know. Um, but I don't know if I would have been in that spot without, you know, that uh happened after I'd been to treatment. Um if I hadn't been to treatment, I don't know if I would have. That is a very good point. Who knows, you know. Um that's very true. You know, and that's how, you know, I think uh years ago, a boy was graduating high school and he babysat our children, and he asked us to write him a letter of what we would do differently if we could go back. And and I wrote in that letter, no, this is years before I went to treatment or anything, but you know, I wrote how at this point in my life I I would not change one thing, no matter the good, the bad, this and that, all those things that have shaped me into who I am. And at that moment, I was uh a man with two young children, married, very happy, you know, marriage, everything, and life was going great. And I feel if something had done been done differently 20 years ago, I mean, who knows where my life would have been. So even with the bad things, with all the good, everything, you know, it I wouldn't change it. And even looking back now, it's like, yes, are there regrets? Of course, there's regrets, nothing you can do about them though. Um, so the only way to make up for past regrets is try to live your life the best you can today, learn from them, hopefully learn from them because like even now I can't say even three years ago I would have done something different because I don't know where I'd be right now. I had to go through whatever I did to be where I am, and I like where I am right now. Um I'm not perfect, but I don't try to be perfect. That's always been a huge thing for me. You know, I think almost everyone, you know, wants to be perfect, and we say, no, it's okay, we're not perfect, but for me, deep down, I still uh for myself I had to be. And I still catch myself at times, you know, if I mess up or get called to the like an office or something, do something bad, it's like, oh god, I still beat myself up a little bit. Um, but I try not to so much because holy shit, it's like I'm human. Come on, yeah. Or how would I how what's helped me to is talk to yourself on how you would talk to someone else? How would you give that person advice? Okay, everything how you talked to them and gave that advice, okay. Turn it around to yourself.
SPEAKER_00:You know, last week with Jen, I said um that I had seen the line, now that I don't have to be perfect, or I realize that I don't have to be perfect, I can be good.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and being good is great, it is, you know, yeah. Are you gonna be good? Are you gonna you know fuck up at times or do you know not the right thing? Or the sure because we make mistakes, uh and that's okay though.
SPEAKER_00:Was it religion uh that taught us that we had made us think we had to be perfect?
SPEAKER_02:Or like why do we all feel like we have to be so I mean I don't know religion, childhood, because religion was so much a childhood, you know, it was like Jesus sees everything, God sees you doing that, you know, do this, you know, in a way of trying to, you know, get you to be good, you know, to kind of almost scare you in a way, you know. But the whole thing is if you're not good, you're going to hell, and that gets stuck in your head too.
SPEAKER_00:I'm just I mean Jesus loves you no matter what, but there's still conditions where I believe Jesus loves you no matter what. Yeah, no matter what you do.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. Then that's the way I wish I was taught, you know. Um, mankind has has taken religion and went their own ways with it. Um many ways I don't agree because it's almost like used for power.
SPEAKER_00:In control.
SPEAKER_02:In control. And two things I'm not a fan of.
SPEAKER_00:I want to tell my Phoenix story, so then we can talk about your Phoenix story. Um, so a few weeks ago I had a friend spend the night, a friend from high school, and in the morning he was like, Hey, did you know that the light shining down in your yard and the way your trees are set up, there's a phoenix in your in your yard with the lights? Like, did you do that on purpose? I'm like, oh yeah, I'm totally skilled enough to figure out how to make a phoenix in my yard when the tree is sure. No, but I thought that was so cool, you know. I was like, man, I haven't thought about a phoenix in like nine months or a year. Like, I just thought it was so cool. A couple hours later, I'm listening to a podcast and they bring up a phoenix, like, and it was a sign for them somehow. And I was like blown away. Two phoenixes in the same day. Whoa, a few hours later, I decide to look up. I had been thinking for a while about purchasing a yurt that I could uh like do some meditation in, and I decided to look one up. One of the first ones that it showed up, the style is called a phoenix, and I was just like, oh my gosh, just blown away. I was like, well, this is all assigned to just pick this yurt because I dislike researching so much, and I'm like just the universe is helping me out, so I don't have to keep trying to figure out which one. And I was smart and looked through a couple of other ones, but I went back to this one. I'm like, I think this one is in it, and then you came over the next day to talk about what we're gonna talk about on the podcast. And I told you that story, you're like, I have a phoenix day from like four phoenixes in 24 hours, and then that week I brought it up to a couple other people and a couple of other things that showed up, so it's like what is happening with this Phoenix thing, and I still don't know, but I for me, I mean, like what does it mean for me in my life? Like, there's so many things it could mean, but um, you have a Phoenix tattoo. I do. What's your Phoenix story?
SPEAKER_02:Honestly, I uh show what I was I was in treatment uh talking with a girl who ended up kind of being uh my treatment daughter. Uh she was 23, I believe, at the time.
SPEAKER_00:Um it's like work wife, but treatment daughter. Treatment daughter, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So well, the I didn't mention it. The first time I went to treatment, I left with a treatment girlfriend, which wasn't good. Treatment daughter is so much better. Okay, but it uh there was just you know, I got there and I had just been there three weeks ago, so I knew some of the people still there, like client-wise. Um, so that was kind of fun. Um, but there was always one girl in my class, uh, very quiet, and that at that point was sometime in COVID. So uh some classes we'd wear masks or you know, and some they didn't care if we did. Uh, she always wore a mask, always had her hair like down, and when she'd speak, you could hardly hear her. Um, and just ended up connecting with her one day, and she was having a hard day. Um, I went just kind of sat and asked, you know, if I could sit, and all of a sudden we talked, and she opened up, and and from that moment on we were really close. Like she told me I was the first male in her life where she felt comfortable being in her own, which like crushed me because she's 23, but every man in her life to that point had tried to either take something from her sexually, physically, whatever. Um so that really got to me, and we did get close, uh, just a lot of talking. Um, and I told her my story of just uh when I was down, my my lowest, um and how I just never felt like I dug out of that until that time in treatment. Like, not that I dug out, but I was digging, and I finally felt it and talked about how I felt about myself up to that point. Um and two days later, she comes to me with this drawing um of the Phoenix holding the a skull that's burning, um, or that's on chains. And the way she explained it to me, it just like she based it off what I told her, and then how she explained it to me, it just it's and I wanted it right here so I could always look down there too. This one and that one I always wanted to really see uh for just reminders of keep doing what I'm doing, um, because I don't want to go back to that burning skull, and I don't know, it just uh it floored me, and then she ended up like making like many other drawings and gave me some, and I have other tattoos of her stuff, but that was the other one that you pointed to this one is uh lyrics from River of Deceit.
SPEAKER_00:Um what does it say?
SPEAKER_02:Uh My Pain is Self-Chosen.
SPEAKER_00:Uh I think we even pick it before we come to this planet.
SPEAKER_02:Uh, you know, well, that's generational kind of the trauma and stuff. I mean, that can go for anything that's that's been built in us through or our ancestors through years, you know, decades.
SPEAKER_00:In our DNA.
SPEAKER_02:It is. Um but yeah, that that came from a song which was taken from a book the prophet, um Khalil Jabron. I can't um I can't remember how to say his name, but that book is kind of my Bible, or that became my Bible when I was in treatment. Um had so many great sayings um and little short stories um that really just hit me. Um and that was one because that's one way I kind of lived. Uh been through some very terrible things, and I let those things dictate my life for a long time. So that's what I was living in that pain. Um in that a terrible place to be uh with that feeling. Um and that was just a reminder to kind of that's what happens if you don't confront that pain, confront that trauma. Um you know, it doesn't have to be all at once. Oh my god, that doesn't work, but just little by little. And sometimes you have many of them. So you start with that smallest one and you kind of start working working through them. Um and that's The hope, I guess, at the end of it all that you're not living, you know, trying to destroy yourself because of any reason.
SPEAKER_00:Well, if we could teach kids at a young age not to suppress feelings, like talk about them right away. I mean, how beautiful would that be?
SPEAKER_02:It would be absolutely wonderful. I mean, I have heard there seems to be a lot more children like going to maybe therapy and stuff, which is good, but the whole thing is too, hopefully it's the right kind. Uh, you know, or is it that can go for anyone?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you can use it as a crutch, you can use it as part of your identity.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. And I'm sorry, you also have bad, you know, counselors or therapists too that really don't want your best interest. Yeah, you know, it's more of that paycheck, or you know, it might care a little, but might care enough to have you keep coming back, or making sure you come back. Um, so it can be that can be a hard cycle um to figure out, but that's the whole thing. Hopefully, you're honest with yourself and honest with that person you're meeting with. And if there is a good connection there, that's awesome. Keep it for as long as you can. Um, there's no shame in that, and there's no shame in going to try 10 different councils out or 20. I mean, there is someone out there for you.
SPEAKER_00:Uh I'm so obsessed with my therapist right now. I keep talking about like, and he's probably the fifth one I've had in my life. And today I talked to him and I told him, I'm like, every session with you is better than any full term that I've had with any other therapist. Like, every time is mind blowing. And I didn't even go in talking about anything. I'm just like, oh, I'm really tired this week because you know, and I think when I'm tired, I'm just a mess. And blah, blah, blah. And by the end, I'm just like, okay, that was mind-blowing.
SPEAKER_02:Right. So yeah, and that's what, and that's what I think once you find that personal, it's not that every time you go there, you have to work really hard on what you know. There, because you're gonna have times like that where it's just, I mean, there's been times where I go and I'm like, I think we gotta work our do these things. Then maybe one question is asked or something, and I start talking about that, and then it leads into these little things that were really bothering me and that I wasn't gonna talk about, or maybe it's just throwing some things out to get off the chest or whatever, and then yes, it's like, holy shit, I feel good. But you know, I also think too, you do need those times when you know it's good, and not that not that we should be seeking therapists' counselors for answers or anything, but hopefully they can what I've come to really appreciate is not getting those answers, like it's frustrating, it's like I want the answer to it now, but then I have liked how they can kind of get you to do things to come up with your own answer, and it may take a month, but that's okay, because then once you realize, like, holy shit, I wow, I did that, and how did I do that? And it's like, well, I kind of threw a couple things out there and you just went, and so good job, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Their master, is that making you think that you came up with it on your own?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, you know, that feels good though, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because if they just tell you, then the wires aren't connecting in your brain for yourself, because you can hear something so many times, but until you hear it in the way that you understand it in a in a different way, then you'll never forget it. In the way you connected those, you weren't told.
SPEAKER_02:Yep, if you can do that in your own head, then yes, and it's you're gonna feel that, and it is gonna it's empowering, you know. No, granted, too, obviously, there are times when yes, you're gonna want some answers, and yes, you'll get them, but for so many things, and I think that's what maybe makes a good therapist, they kind of notice, like, hey, this is something we they can they're right on the verge of noticing this, it might just take another week or two, you know, of little nudging on this or something, but not giving anything away. And and then, like, yeah, like we said, I mean, you come up with it and it's like, oh shit, and yeah, then you feel that much better because you came to that understanding, you know. That's good.
SPEAKER_00:Well, this segment that I do, um, I'm so excited about, and maybe I guess part of why I do it is so that I hope people can connect in their brains hearing compliments this way or hearing how other people see you. Because I asked you to give me a list of people that I could reach out to and I asked them to describe you in six or seven adjectives, and then I threw all the words together, and then I picked out some themes from these words. So that is my hope is that you know, people can hear these and then start to believe these things about themselves if it connects in that different way. Because it's not just one person saying it. I know when I hear, like last week, I had something where I'm like, nobody's ever there for me, and blah blah blah, you know, and I'm like freaking out. And then I remembered, oh, somebody reached out to me yesterday about this, like, but I just couldn't feel it. So we are so bad at feeling compliments and hearing good things about ourselves. So excited because yours, your first word. I have never had anybody have this many a group this big for their for one word. So your first word. Do you have any guesses, first of all, of how people described you? Do you want to guess at all?
SPEAKER_02:Uh boy, one word. Uh no, no. I was gonna say terrible roommate.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's not an adjective. A lot of people don't understand the adjective thing, which I get, it's funny, but they're like, they're like giving me phrases, and I'm like, that's not how it works, but okay. Um your first word is kind. Everybody said you're a couple people said considerate, compassionate, helpful, thoughtful, understanding, tender, sweet, generous, loving, supporting, encouraging, forgiving, humble, patient a couple times, reliable, and loyal, loyal a couple times. So I put those in the kind category. Your second word is charismatic. A couple people said funny, a couple people said hilarious, a couple people said affable, and people said fun, amiable, amicable, friendly, optimistic, and inspirational.
SPEAKER_02:People said all those words?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Your third word, your third word is expressive. Not surprising, a couple of people said creative. They said artistic, evolving, real as fuck.
SPEAKER_02:I take that one. Yeah. Yeah. Creative.
SPEAKER_00:Fourth word is fearless with words like adventurous, brave, courageous, resilient, confident, and honest. Your fifth word is perceptive with words like intelligent, brilliant, logical, and insightful. So AI and I came up with a synopsis for you with all these words. And it it is that you are the warmth that draws people in, the light that they didn't know they needed. A living lyric, steady and true.
SPEAKER_02:I'm gonna say I agree. That's how far I've come.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's beautiful. It starts with speaking to yourself in the mirror.
SPEAKER_02:It does. Um those are holy shit, that's I don't know. I so many like chills, just like thinking of that. Um that's kind of what I strive to be. Many of those things, you know, and I fall short sometimes, but that's okay.
SPEAKER_00:And you reach out to a range of people, some friends that you've been friends with forever, some women that have watched you for decades, and your children. And they all see you in the same themes.
SPEAKER_02:That was makes the guy feel pretty good.
SPEAKER_00:What do you hope that your grandkids do that you do when they're your age?
SPEAKER_02:I just hope that, you know, starting at a younger age, being aware of so many things, of just how life kind of works, how whatever you can get into nitty-gritties and everything, but just you know, even the little books like don't sweat the small stuff, things like that. Like, I totally forgot about that book until someone brought it up recently, but it it's so true. And I remember reading it when I was younger, but not really whatever. I'm being like, yeah, it's true, whatever not, living it. Kind of live the way you see, live the way that you are meant to. Um in just the best way you can, you know. I don't know if people are gonna do drugs or drink and stuff. Um just hopefully smart. You know?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, self-aware.
SPEAKER_02:Self-aware.
SPEAKER_00:Is there anything that you do that you hope your grandkids don't do?
SPEAKER_02:Right now?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, anything that you do in your life that you still should kick.
SPEAKER_02:Uh smoking.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's freaking cigarettes, and they say, you know, they try to get you to stop in treatment, but I was one of those that's like one fucking thing at a time. Um but yeah, that's one thing I hope uh starting with my daughters, never do.
SPEAKER_00:Um I think the younger generation is like But not vape either. But not vape either. Oh no, you're right. You're right, they're vaping so much.
SPEAKER_02:That's what that's where, yes. Uh so because that that's still kind of like, hey, this is a healthier, you know, alternative, but it's it could be uh ten times worse.
SPEAKER_00:It's so much worse. Yesterday was two weeks without vaping for me. Two weeks, it's so tough because it is like you can get fruity, you can get savory, you can get whatever kind you want, you can do it anywhere. And that's so fun and amazing. Because I had quit smoking cigarettes years ago and just started vaping a year ago.
SPEAKER_02:And I have thought of that going back to smoking like camelites because I would get sick if I smoke them right now. Yeah, I'm like, oh, maybe I should do that. Yeah, mine are too good.
SPEAKER_00:Right? Yeah. Well, I always smoked menthols, and I was like, what if I only smoked reds? Then I wouldn't smoke.
SPEAKER_02:But yeah, I know. But then it's probably one of those things where if it's in your head you're gonna do that, you'll fight through that little shit, and then all of a sudden you're smoking reds.
SPEAKER_00:You're always figuring out how to justify it. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I hope that you come on again soon. I want to hear more about coping skills. I want to hear more about your life leading up to this. Um, I think we have a lot more to talk about with spirituality. Um, but yeah, let's save it for next time. Thank you so much for coming on.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you so much for having me. Letting me share a little bit of my life.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Thanks.