Supernaut

Struggles Of The New Normal & Divine Timing

• Supernaut

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Mike returns to share the truth most people don’t see: sobriety flips a family system, and the healing is messy, humbling, and worth it. We get into the fear of becoming a “new person” your partner didn’t sign up for, the awkward beauty of joining hobbies you once mocked, and the challenge of asking for space without taking it all back. Mike talks about depression arriving when alcohol left, how a good therapist and the right meds changed the tone of his days, and why naming small childhood hurts became the key to stopping old patterns with his son.

We explore the practical side of rebuilding: gratitude as a daily practice, simple faith routines that fit real life, and household balance that avoids new resentments. Mike explains how he and his wife renegotiated roles, how teens respond when you stop pushing and start listening, and why letting your kid make the call can lead to wiser choices. He shares the moment his wife named two decades of mental abuse and how staying present for that truth became the turning point for trust. There are stories of divine timing, quiet prayers, and the shock of realizing “normal” isn’t taking kids to bars at 10 p.m.

If you’re navigating recovery, loving someone who is, or wondering why the change you wanted still hurts, this conversation offers tools and hope. Expect candor about antidepressants and AA, gentle guidance on gratitude, and a model for setting boundaries without building new walls. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs it, and leave a review with the one insight you’re taking into your week.

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to Superman, where we explore the inner and outer dimensions of the self. Mike Karnick is our guest today. He's on for the second time. The first time went so good we thought, why not do it again? Get an update and get into some deeper topics like depression and the effects of alcoholism with parents and spouses. So I asked you to pick a song for us to listen to today before we started. What song did you pick?

SPEAKER_02:

I went with Wasteland by the band 10 Years this time.

SPEAKER_01:

What made you pick this song?

SPEAKER_02:

So the guitar player on that in the band, or he's no longer with the band, is uh just about 11 years sober now. And I met him through an acquaintance and spent some time with that band when they were in town and gone out to uh St. Louis and spent time with them. And so him and I had partied pretty hard quite a few times. And when I decided to get sober, I actually reached out to him via Facebook and we had about a three-day conversation, and he never said what was going on in his life at the time, but he had mentioned that I reached out at an unbelievable time and he needed it. So just kind of back and forth with my sobriety, I've kept in touch with him and but he's been sober for 11 years? Yeah, he's not been sober.

SPEAKER_01:

But he was having a hard time when he reached out.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I reached out, he didn't say what it was, he just said he needed it. You know, God has a funny way of reaching out and asked if he could post our conversation on his social media stuff, and I said, Yeah, I don't care.

SPEAKER_01:

So Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so you know, Ryan lives in Nashville and he's recording Christian music and and doing well for himself, but it was so when you say you partied, was that before the 11 years of him being sober? Or like yeah, so he's he left the band uh probably six, seven, eight years ago now. I mean, oh well it's probably 11 years, 10 years, I think, because he left when he got sober. Um prior to that, a friend of mine worked for the band.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

So every time they were in town, I'd go meet up with them. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Well, that's great. Sometimes when you think of somebody and you text them, and then it ends up being the perfect time. I think, you know, every time, whether I'm busy or not, if somebody pops into my head, I do everything I can to make sure to reach out to them because where is that sign coming from? Right. You know, it must be coming from something, something divine.

SPEAKER_02:

And it was crazy because when you had reached out and asked me to do this a second time, is when he posted that he was almost 11 years, almost 100,000 hours of sobriety. It was the same day. I was like, that's kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So yeah, it's all intertwined.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I like it. So how's it been since your last episode? Did you get a lot of feedback?

SPEAKER_02:

I have, yeah. Um, a lot of people watched it, a lot of people reached out and hey, you did a great job. You know, didn't know that side of me. I mean, again, I kept I kept the issue at bay, but I out in public, but I was it is what it is. So yeah, it was good feedback though.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02:

I had a lot of people. Last I looked, it was close to like 400 people watched it or something. So yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It's crazy if you think about a hundred people in a room.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Times four.

SPEAKER_02:

Employee my employer watched it, um, relatives watched it. People that I've worked with years ago that live in other states watched it. I was like, Yeah. So yeah, it travels.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, I got a lot of comments. I think it helped a lot of people for you to be that open and vulnerable. Good. What else has changed for you since then?

SPEAKER_02:

The biggest change for me has been the relationship with Katie. Um your wife? Yeah, my wife for for you know 18 years being an alcoholic. She was in love or married to that mic, and then all of a sudden you change because it's for the better. And it was like falling back in love with somebody new again and learning different things we can do, different places we can go, different people.

SPEAKER_01:

And your real personality.

SPEAKER_02:

Luckily for me, I think she seen that through the alcoholism for all those years because I don't know how she put up with it. And she's a godsend for putting up with it, but 17 years of it, and she was still there, so were you kindling in that flame? Yeah, learning um the new normal, you know, um things that she enjoyed that I didn't as an alcoholic and didn't want to partake in. So she had stopped asking me to do it. And now that I'm sober and want to be involved more, she was kind of taken back when she would make plans and be like, Well, hey, I want to do that with you. And you know, pickleball was one thing, hiking, walking, just different things that wasn't something I cared to do because you weren't gonna have beer booze when you're out hiking at a state forest. But so it was a learning curve for her, and and again for me to realize that I was now infringing on some of her stuff that was important to her that she had done alone for so long, and now I wanted to be there.

SPEAKER_01:

So was she ever like back off? This is my thing.

SPEAKER_02:

She never said back off, but there was definitely there's been times where she's taken back and is like, I've never had to ask you because you would always say no, or you would always say this is dumb, or if you came, you always wanted to leave early. So talking it through and being like, No, I really want to do this with you. Um and just letting her, you know, when I was drinking, she is always with me to make sure I was safe. So if I we went out, she would always come just so she knew I was safe. Where now, like her birthday, she wanted to go out with her friends and do something special for herself. But it was awkward because it's like, wait, we've never not been together. What are you doing? So it was one of those conversations where I was like, you don't want to spend your birthday with your family? And at first I took it as she didn't want to be around me because we're still on this learning curve. Then I sat there and I reflected one night and I was like, Well, no, she just has never got to do anything for herself. Like, this is something she just wants to do and go back to the old Katie.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So when dynamics change, even if it's for the good, it's takes a while to get used to.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Yeah. And just change in general, good or bad, takes time to get used to. And in this case, it's been a great change. But it's been hard on me, almost as hard as quitting drinking, because the stuff that I didn't care to do, she's wondering if I just care now because it's been 17 years of not caring or if it's something I'm really interested in.

SPEAKER_01:

So and but you are interested in all of that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I yeah. Yeah. More so on just interested in other things other than drinking or other things other than what we were doing that led me down to always wanting to drink.

SPEAKER_01:

What are some examples of the things you guys have been doing?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh, pickleball. Um started, we've only gone out a couple times, once or twice, but with Katie's mom and dad moving back in and things going on. But that was something new. Um, walks, we've just been going on walks. I've down probably 40 pounds since the last time I was on here. So 30 some pounds. So, yeah, you know, that's a huge thing, you know. Things like that. Um, movie nights, like the kids go get snacks at the dollar store and we just watch a movie where before it was like, uh, not gonna do this, I'm gonna go somewhere else, sit in the garage or whatever.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah. What's the biggest change that you've seen in yourself and how you see yourself?

SPEAKER_02:

I've been more involved in our church, per se. I mean, I've been going to church, I've been, we've gone to a few adult Bible studies on Wednesday nights. My daughter goes to youth group Wednesday nights, so her and I, Katie and I will stay and and hang out. Um we've downloaded a Bible app just to kind of read. And I was never really a big Christian per se, but you start seeing things like talking to Ryan at the right time or you reaching out, and there's obviously something more there. So that's the biggest change I've seen.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, okay. So you said you wanted to talk about depression.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Um when I after I left here and I was talking to the guys in my AA group who were just shooting the crap one day, and ended up reading a study that like 50% to 60% of alcoholics battle depression. And I didn't think I was ever depressed, I was just an alcoholic. And then when we started going through, when I started going through being sober and the change and learning the new normal, it started hitting me. Things in the past that I would start drinking because I was thinking about, like now I'm not drinking, and now I'm still thinking about it. So it got dark for, I don't know, probably six, seven months recently. And Katie noticed it and was like, hey, you should probably see someone, talk to someone. So I reached out, talked to a guy in St. Cloud, started seeing a therapist, and and you know, they put me on some antidepressants, and and it's helped. But that was as big of a learning curve as it was to quit drinking that things come up, and all of a sudden my old go-to was I'm just gonna start drinking. Where now it's like, what are you gonna do? Now you sit there and fester in it, and you know, luckily Katie noticed it before it got too bad.

SPEAKER_01:

So Yeah, because I think when you're in it, it's hard to even know that you're in it.

SPEAKER_02:

I didn't want to admit I was in it. I didn't uh you know, it was hard enough to admit I was an alcoholic and to come out of that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, because life is supposed to be brand new and shiny and perfect.

SPEAKER_02:

And you know, I fixed the problem. What do you mean there's another one? You know.

SPEAKER_01:

Um So you have you gone back to where the alcoholism stemmed from?

SPEAKER_02:

We started. We're not I don't know that we're totally there yet with the therapist, but we're getting there. Um takes a while. Yeah, it's I didn't realize certain things I've kept festering inside me that now that I'm clear-headed and whatnot, I kind of look back like, what are you you really that upset about? Something like that? You know, something that was said, so you know, someone did something 25 years ago and I'm still holding on to it. And you never thought I was until all of a sudden sitting there in my living room, something triggers it and get upset and yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm. A psychic I talked to over the phone one time, I was talking about how, like, no, my childhood was great. I have no reason. And then she was like, any small thing is okay to be upset about and be hurt by, you know? Yeah. So those small things that we think are silly and we shouldn't be upset about to our younger selves, especially if we were pretty young, is important to deal with. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, I had mom and dad at home. I, you know, it wasn't that I was, I wouldn't say that I was ever without. It was just, you know, uh uh stepmom was involved, stepsisters, stepbrothers, like there were things that all of a sudden we start talking about it, and I was like, that's that comment was made, or this was said. And you know, I tell my kids, I'm like, I had a great upbringing. I mean, yeah, but then you start thinking about it, nope, that's still back there.

SPEAKER_01:

And repressing it doesn't help. And then it turns into alcoholism or some other addiction of anything, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean fortunate for me it was alcohol and not drugs like my brother, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So you like this therapist? You found one you liked right away?

SPEAKER_02:

I I've gone the he was the second one that I went to. The first one I don't know that it was the right fit for me. Um not that he was bad, but it just it didn't click. Like he would ask questions and I'd answer it, and I'd be like, all right, cool. And I left, and we're this guy, he'll ask me a question or we'll get into a topic, and he'll sit back and let me just kind of go for a minute, and then he'll ask a question in a way that gets me to really think, and then like and then all of a sudden he's got the oh gotcha moment. There it is.

SPEAKER_01:

It's like, oh yeah, I didn't know I could like one as much as I like this one. I probably had three or four in my life and only for short periods of time, probably under a year each. But this one, I'm like, can you move in?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, what do we gotta do?

SPEAKER_01:

I have a free basement.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's it's a good thing. Um you know, then you you think about it with with my son, who's now gonna be 18 soon, like he lived with this all of his life. So Katie and I talked and we were like, maybe we should have him talk to someone. Because again, he says he's fine, he he doesn't, you know, they seem happy, it's not like they're shying away from me anymore or nothing like that. But just now me getting in touch with what was still there, like you said, a little one little thing can do it. So, you know, we have him now talking to a guy, and and I think he has his second one tonight with him, so hopefully he doesn't forget. But uh last week or two weeks ago when he had it, he came back upstairs and dad, I really like that guy. He just talked to me about hockey, and and it's like good, you know, he'll get to where he needs to be. I'll let it be.

SPEAKER_01:

So Yeah, because I don't think there's a single human being that doesn't have things from their childhood that hurt them.

SPEAKER_02:

Right, yeah. I I don't know anyone that can say they haven't. And you know, learning learning of some of the things that I did in the past and talking with Katie and and talking to Blake and even Allison at 15, things that I didn't think were bad were bad. You know, uh we don't want to tell you this happened because you used to get really upset about it. Really upset isn't just yelling or really upset because things didn't get done, like never physical, done like that. But so now when you're sober and you're trying to make amends for everything, and it's like Katie'll tell me, Oh, you know, this happened at school today. Why didn't no one tell me? Because they don't want to get yelled at. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, how beautiful that you've changed the household dynamic so drastically already while they're still home. Try instead of them off at college, and you're like, hey, see a therapist. I get it now.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I get it. That was my biggest fear was you know, him moving out to college just coming up summer, and then him calling us and and you know, why didn't you guys offer this? Why didn't you guys, you know, because I think that's where I was with my parents. Like, hey, you knew this stuff was going on, you you knew this stuff was being said to you know, my sister and I, like, when didn't why wasn't and I guess in the 80s and 90s it wasn't as prevalent as it is now, but now you start seeing, you know, like we talked earlier in suicides that people the the rate is so high now and it's like it needs to be talked about.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, definitely. Um, how would you describe your depression to somebody who's never felt it before?

SPEAKER_02:

For me, it can hit me like a ton of bricks out of nowhere. And and I'm fortunate enough Katie sees it and it's just like, Do you just go in the room, hang out, you know, I'll be in there, do you need anything? And it it can be anything. It can be we'll we'd be sitting there watching a movie and and something will happen or it's be said and it'll just trigger it, and I'll be like, I'm just gonna step away. Not that I've ever broken down in front of my kids or anything like that, not that it would be a bad thing, but it's like it just feels like a ton of bricks back on my shoulders, and it's like so I'll walk away, breathe a little bit, and be like, you're fine, it's it's good, and talk to the therapist on the next Wednesday or whatever. So um just real tight pressure on the shoulders and chest areas how it feels for me.

SPEAKER_01:

It's really heavy and tight.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Wow. Wow. So is that more anxiety or not sure?

SPEAKER_02:

I I I thought maybe anxiety when we before I started seeing this guy. And I was like, well, I'm just anxious now because everything's new and and turning out. But then you start talking to him and and it's kind of a buildup of anxiety and and the depression. Like again, three years ago, that feeling comes up. I'm going to the fridge and grabbing a drink. Now I can't go to the fridge and grab a drink, and I gotta deal with it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. There's a hole there, so what are you gonna fill it with now? And it seems like you have so many new hobbies and activities that you're doing, but maybe does it come down to like some kind of practice? I mean, you're going to church more now, too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um I I think the church thing is what's really helping. The reading of the Bible. And I don't want to be the stereotypical, oh, Jesus did all, you know, that's not where we're going with this. It's just there was a hole there. There was there was something, and you start listening to other people's just life stories, not even that they're an alcoholic or they're depressed, but people go through crap all the time and seeing how they deal with it. And I think that's helped me. So you know, you go to adult Bible study and they just talk about their day, and all of a sudden the the little thing that might have set me off or kind of triggered the depression that day was minute. And then you're sitting there listening to somebody that, you know, lost a job that day or whatever it be, and you realize the world's much larger than that, and it's okay to talk to somebody when something like that happens.

SPEAKER_01:

So and do you talk to God in the moment when it happens too? Or is that just when you're at church or at these Bible studies?

SPEAKER_02:

Lately I have. Lately. Um Katie's mom has recently gone through a uh medical procedure, and I knew Katie was pretty upset about it and all worried. Her mom's getting up there in age, and I bet I prayed every day for two weeks. You know, good recovery and everything to go well, and and uh it was a heart procedure. And she had it done and she was at my house the next day cooking with my with Allison. Like four years ago, I think it was, she had a heart surgery and she was out for months, you know. And I mean it was a more evasive surgery back then than what it was now, but that's where Katie's mind was is we've done this and it didn't end well, or you know, it didn't the recovery wasn't well. Or this time, you know, knock on wood seems to be going much better, and they're actually gonna be heading off to their winter place in Texas in a couple weeks.

SPEAKER_01:

So Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That's so great to hear. I mean, and not to be harsh, but what if it went the other way? Would that make you stop praying as often?

SPEAKER_02:

No. Um I've uh I think I've come to realize in the last probably three months that things are put in our way to for a reason. Uh you know. Um trying to explain to to my kids, you know, if Allison didn't make varsity basketball.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, why?

SPEAKER_02:

Maybe maybe there's a reason they want you on this team. Or, you know, Blake with high, you know, certain things. So to me, if if something, God forbid, would have happened to my mother-in-law, I think I would have I mean it it would have crushed me at at the moment, but I think Katie and I would have sat down and been like, okay, well, what what were we supposed to get out of this?

SPEAKER_00:

Like what what are we gonna learn?

SPEAKER_02:

Where are we gonna go from here? Whether it be maybe her mom would have had to stay with us forever then and and not go to Texas anymore. I luckily that didn't happen. Luckily we don't gotta worry about that. But I don't think I would have stopped praying.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, those are very different things when something medically bad happens versus not getting on the basketball team. But um, in both circumstances, you can find the good. And for basketball, it's like, yeah, I mean, you work that much harder and then you're making better habits for the rest of your life. I think God is trying to show you where you're stuck, yeah. And that's why the bad things happen. Otherwise, if everything was good all the time, we wouldn't grow. We would just literally stay the exact same.

SPEAKER_02:

I try to ask my kids every day, what was the best part of today? Every day. And I think Allison gets more annoyed with it. I don't know, Dan, coming home. Like, no, what was your best part of school? And they don't get why. And then at the end of the day, there's so much negative in the world. Like, start picking out the good things, be happy. Like, even if it's just a little thing, what what made you super happy today? And then all of a sudden she's in a great moon, you know. She got in the car tonight, and you could tell she was bummed about something, she wouldn't tell me what. Dropped her friend off, and I asked her the question, and again, she's just like, I don't know, Spanish class. And I was like, Well, what happened in Spanish class? She tells me, and I was like, Well, that's kind of cool. And the next thing I know we're having a conversation, and she's in a way better mood, and then she doesn't realize what it was, but I can see it now. Like, you're not focused on whatever crappy thing happened today, your your mindset changed.

SPEAKER_01:

So and the more that they're resisting telling you what's going on, is probably the more you have to push to pull it out because it needs to be pulled out that much more.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Katie once told me that I push sometimes too hard to get it out of them, so then they rebel back. So now it's the learning curve is asking the right questions on how to um sensitively Blake for the longest time wanted to quit his job. He hockey starting and senior year, and he doesn't want to miss out on things. And no, you're not quitting your job until you get a new one. Like that was my stance. Like you will work, like you're not just gonna do nothing. You know, I mean obviously he's playing hockey, but and finally, Cading and he every time he had to work, I'm gonna put my notice in. I'm gonna put my notice in. He was just finally, we just said, fine, do it. Put your notice in. It's like, all right, I'm gonna put my notice in tonight. I said, uh, fine, you do it. Uh that's up to you, it's your call. Comes back after work. Yeah, dad, I just think I'm gonna hang out and and work through the end of school. I don't want to be broke. And he goes downstairs and Katie goes, I think it just needed to be his idea.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, we pushed for so hard, no, no, no. And and and he wanted to rebel and he wants to be 18 and wants to be an adult and make a decision.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And finally, when we said, go make the decision, he's like, oh boy, maybe it's not the right decision. And he came home and yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So it's like he needed to know he had freedom and free will.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. And that there was gonna be no rebuttal from me or Katie. Like, we weren't gonna, well, then you can't take the car anymore. You know, like we didn't want to come off that way. Like, well, that's fine. You're not gonna work, you're not driving, because that's not fair to him either. I mean, he's had two jobs all summer, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So it started just going to church more often, and now you're talking to God a little bit more throughout the day. Have you thought about you know just letting God flood in and take complete control of that hole, that alcohol left empty?

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know how that looks.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, I think that's where I'm trying to get to. But I being an addict, like I can I can sense myself being like, let's just immerse completely in the church. Let's do everything they're gonna offer. Like, you know, I I could go that route, but I don't know that I'm ready for that yet either.

SPEAKER_01:

Um But it doesn't have to be physically there, it can just be like your relationship day by day, like talking to God more.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, but again, I don't know from never doing it to now doing it as much as I am, yeah, was a change. So I I want to get there and I I I want to get to that point of I I think gratitude is what comes to mind. You know, like I I Katie kind of laughs because I wake up and I say thank you, I bet, 50 times before I even get in the shower in the morning. Like I get out of bed and both feet hit the ground, I say thank you. I go yeah, and it's not even thank you for anything in specific, it's just coming up on a thousand days of sobriety I didn't think was possible. And so I I do thank him every day. I you know, I I have to, because there are times where things get tough and dark, and it's like I could easily fall back and and fight my depression with booze again, and and fortunate for me, I think Katie would stay because she stayed for 17 years. Unfortunate for her because she doesn't deserve that either.

SPEAKER_01:

So But now she gets this joy of how great it is, and she had that contrast, you know. Sometimes the contrast is what really makes it so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And I like thinking of the gratitude as a practice, a gratitude practice, because it takes a lot of work to remember to be thankful all day long. Right. And I think a the whole relationship with God can be a practice. Some religions use the word practice more than others, don't hear it very much in Christianity, but you know, getting close to God takes work and it's practice.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. The gratitude thing is is huge for me right now. I think that's what's more filling that hole than the church thing. Um just like truly being thankful for everything that's out there.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

It's crazy on the wavelengths that you can go on, and all of a sudden it opens up other doors and avenues that weren't there a week ago, but because you're on that level now, all of a sudden you meet somebody and or end up somewhere and something happens.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, because I think of the universe as this living live thing, and when you tell it what you want, when you tell it that you're thankful for things, this gives you more of those things to be thankful for. It's gonna throw curveballs at you to show you where you're stuck. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

It was a great reality check to me because when I was telling my family about this, and they see me read, you know. I think last time I talked, I had started reading, and I think I've finished my 11th book since May, you know, and I wanted eight. That was my goal was eight, and I'm down with 11 now. But a lot of them were based on on that, you know, and and being thankful and gratitude. And so, of course, Blake's like, Well, thank you for a new hockey stick. And it's like, well, we're not getting rich because we say thank you, but you know, so it was it's been fun.

SPEAKER_01:

It's yeah, it's fun navigating that and figuring out you have to really feel thankful. You can't just say it.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And I don't think you can be in a state of desire, like, oh, I want that hockey stick so bad. You have to just be thankful that it exists and just let it come to you without because if you're in a state of desire, then you are telling the universe that you don't have it.

SPEAKER_02:

You're not, yeah, you're not grateful for it. Yeah, you're without you're you're wanting it. Yeah, and it'll give you reasons not to get it. I mean, it'll keep putting roadblocks as to why.

SPEAKER_01:

So I love that stuff. Do you know any of the names of the books that you read?

SPEAKER_02:

The one that I just finished was The Magic, part of the secret series. Um, that was probably one of my favorite ones so far. And then yeah, that was one I just finished.

SPEAKER_01:

Awesome. Do you have a next one ready?

SPEAKER_02:

I don't. And I was gonna go to Barnes and Noble today and look, and then I got called away for work for some stuff.

SPEAKER_01:

And maybe I have one over there. Yeah, I'm open because that divine timing again.

SPEAKER_02:

See, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm. Cool. So alcoholism, you talked about with spouses and parents, like the effects that it has. Is there anything specific you wanted to get into with that?

SPEAKER_02:

I I think the biggest thing I wanted to get out there is just the learning of the new, you know, um, I wasn't certain where Katie was gonna fall when all of a sudden this all came to be, and I wasn't the same guy she was with 17 years ago.

SPEAKER_01:

So you had that fear?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, there was a big fear.

SPEAKER_01:

Is that alcohol like trying to grasp back onto you? Is it our ego? Like, I mean it was my ego.

SPEAKER_02:

I I I think, you know, 20 years ago when we met, and I was downtown St. Cloud at the bar every night, and you know, we're 21 and in college, and that was the life to now being sober and not wanting to do that. I was my ego was like, You're still that guy, and then it was like, but you're not, and and does she like the new mic? You know, again, she's never said she didn't, but the fear was there. This is completely grounds we've never chartered, you know. So she's been a superstar. Um I I think as an alcoholic, I didn't realize that it was gonna be that big of a change. I just thought, like I said, I fixed the problem. Everything's gonna be roses now. I mean, the issue we had was me being an alcoholic, so that's gone. So what what can the problem be?

SPEAKER_01:

And then life's just gonna be perfect now.

SPEAKER_02:

If it was that easy, I would have quit 20 years ago. But learning anew, learning the you know, maybe I can help out more by doing more laundry. Maybe, you know, we split finances in a way of like you handle this stuff and I'll handle that. I mean, our monies are still our money, but it was just like stuff that I just put on her plate, like I want you to do it all.

SPEAKER_01:

Are you overcompensating now though and trying to just do everything?

SPEAKER_02:

No, no. I at first I thought I was going to. At first, I was like, I'm gonna take on everything she offers because I don't want to upset her. I've learned to say no, I can't do that. Like, I've I've I've gotta finish this or I gotta be able to handle this before I take any more on.

SPEAKER_01:

God, that's healthy.

SPEAKER_02:

Um the conversation we had probably about a month ago, you know, she wanted asked if I would take on some other stuff, and I just said, I can't right now. She made the comment. Well, I've been doing it for 20 years. I I get it, but if if I go and take all of it, then does the resentment come back? Now am I gonna be pissed off at you because you're dumping it on me and I see you a free it's not that it's right that she doesn't have the free time that I did, but I just don't want to take on everything and then it create issues later on, I guess.

SPEAKER_01:

Have you heard of Brene Brown?

SPEAKER_02:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01:

She's an author and she has a podcast and she's big into vulnerability, but she has a system with her husband that when they get home after work, they ask each other what percentage they're capable of. So, like, you know, I'm I'm at 80%, so that means I only have 20% to give, like, or I've already given 80% today. And the other person will say, okay, well, I'm at 93 or I'm at 62. So then that's kind of how they delegate who is doing what the rest of the day, and I really like that idea.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it'd be something to talk to her about because we can't give 100% all the time.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Like it's just it's not possible. And for 20 years, I basically force it upon her to give 110%.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So and with this system, if every time you come home and you're like, you're always at a higher percent than the other person, then you're gonna lose trust and the relationship's just not gonna work out.

SPEAKER_00:

Gotta be honest about it.

SPEAKER_01:

You have to be honest with yourself and that person for that system to work out.

SPEAKER_02:

I'll have to look into it. It's it's an idea. It you know, we've I like the compromise that we've made so far, you know. I mean, little things that, you know, putting laundry away to just cooking dinners, you know. Last night the teachers had conferences from noon until eight o'clock. So making sure, you know. Not asking, what are we having for dinner? I don't know, I'm she's working, so you know. And I'm fortunate enough to have my mother-in-law there cooking now anyway, but it's those little things that three years ago I would have dumped back on her, like yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So you're living in the present more now. Yeah. And yeah, totally. If I had a husband when I quit drinking, I would have been very paranoid that they're not gonna like me anymore.

SPEAKER_02:

It was a real fear, it was um eye-opening, and it helped me a lot knowing she was still there and that she had reassured me, she's like, I'm not leaving. If I was gonna leave, I would have left 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_01:

But can you imagine if, like, I mean, cause that would be so ruthless if somebody stayed with you through the alcoholism, then you quit. And then they leave. I mean, can you imagine the pain that that could I blame her? So of course you're going to be paranoid about that or scared.

SPEAKER_02:

But I couldn't blame her though, either, you know.

SPEAKER_01:

Um because sometimes when we do bad habits like drinking, I mean, it might just be like, well, then if they leave, then I have something to blame it on. So maybe the fear started before and had nothing to do with alcohol. You just always had that fear there, and you have the alcohol to blame, and now there's no crutch.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, there's nothing there. Um she sees it, she partakes in a group and all that. And I I think one of the biggest gut-wrenching moments for me was we were out to dinner one night, her and I went Olive Garden River, and do you realize I've been in an abusive relationship for 20 years? And to me, I'm like, I've never raised a hand at you. What are you talking about an abusive relationship? She goes, No, like mentally, like everything was my fault. Everything I had to do, right? You know, that hit me harder than anything.

SPEAKER_01:

And because she was in it, she couldn't see it. We just talked about how when you're in depression, when you're in an abusive relationship, you can't see it. My last relationship as well, I did not know until afterwards. Right. I was like, oh, that's what was happening. Wow. And then I had a family member say, Yeah, he was trying to get your whole family against you the entire time. And I was like, Well, I had suspicions of that, but I didn't realize the depth.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I again, it was never violent towards her, but you know, when when somebody wants to go do something that's important to them, but no, because it wasn't important to me, you know, she locked herself in a closet and basically didn't know who she was anymore.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, when she's just trying to keep the peace, is she's done a fight.

SPEAKER_02:

She didn't want to cause any more waves because she had seen me at my ultimate highs, but she's also seen me at my extreme lows. So this all comes about, we're talking, and and she tells me that. So the fear kicked back in, like, oh boy, is she getting ready to walk out? Like she's already kind of planting a seed. Your mind starts racing and and overthinking when reality she just wanted to talk about what she had gone through for 20 years, and and that she does enjoy this new version, and that again, I didn't realize you're falling in love with someone else. Like I'm not the same guy I was 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. That is heavy.

SPEAKER_02:

It was, it is.

SPEAKER_01:

That's great. I mean that she uh yeah, she's growing so much too and having so many revelations. Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

And it's it's fun watching her now, you could tell she's happier, and you can see it with the things she does with her friends, you can see it with her ambitions. You know, we talked about the meeting that her and Jenny are supposed to have coming up. Like all of this stuff before she would put on the back burner now is on her forefront, and and I can see her basically blooming into something very special. Like, you know, she went into administration because when I was an alcoholic, it was like we need the money, we're spending money on dumb things, and not Mike's just wasting money. She went back into teaching afterwards, and I'll you take a pay cut, but I see you're much happier, you know, and then and part of all that is she can now be what she wants.

SPEAKER_01:

So well, thank you so much um for sharing that conversation. That is huge, and I hope that makes other people, men or women, realize how they're affecting other people in their lives without realizing it.

SPEAKER_02:

And just to to be open and and have that open line of communication because it's it is it is different. It's it's a whole different relationship now.

SPEAKER_01:

Much better for me in my case, but and so growing up with alcoholic parents, your dad for sure was your mom.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep, my mom alcoholic, too.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, what's something that you didn't realize wasn't normal until you got a little older that had to do with alcohol?

SPEAKER_02:

I thought it was normal to go and hang out in bars. Now I see it. My son's 17, has a car, can drive, his buddy plays hockey down in the cities. They go down there on a Friday night, and all of a sudden I look at Life 360 and he's at Willie McCoy's at 11 o'clock at night. I'm like, dude, you're 17. Get up, you know. But to me that was normal. I I they were there with me for years. You know, we'd take them to cabs, we'd take them to the crystal, they would sit there and watch us hang out with friends and play pole tabs and drink, and it was normal. And now I'm sitting there like, that's not normal. Nothing good happens at those places after 10 o'clock at night. Like, why is there a 17-year-old there? So trying to teach him and Allison that that that's not normal. Most kids aren't sitting at a bar at 10 o'clock at night. I mean, I know you can go in there, but you don't need to be in there. That's probably the big thing that sticks out to Katie and I.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Um it's just ironic because I used to be jealous that my parents never did bring me to a bar. Like any we didn't go out to eat at bars. So, mom, don't be hurt by this because it's okay. But um, I also got jealous of my friends that got boxed macaroni and cheese because my mom only ever made homemade. Mom, I appreciate it. Well, sorry. But yeah, so there's a balance. I mean, you know, you can bring kids to a bar, but yeah, if you're feeling like you did too much and you were grown up in a bar. Yeah. Yeah, makes sense.

SPEAKER_02:

Not that he's doing anything wrong there, and not that they can't go and have dinner and and and it's fine.

SPEAKER_01:

But definitely not that. With limits.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. You know, like you can go, but get out of the bar by 10 o'clock. You're 17. You don't need to be there any later. So teaching them now again that that's not normal to just go hang out there.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You know.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. My son turns 21 in less than two months. But I really don't think he's gonna be into the bar scene. I don't think many kids are. I don't we talk about that quite a bit.

SPEAKER_02:

You drive through town here on a on a Friday night and it's pretty desolate, and it's like I feel bad for the bar owners, but 100%. But 15 years ago they were packed. I mean, when Katie and I first moved up here, I remember going to the crystal on a Friday night and it was shoulder to shoulder. You know, you couldn't walk in there. I don't know the reason why. I mean, I was there every night I could be, but I I don't think my kids are and I think part of it is they've seen what my family has entailed, and the alcoholic in my family. So I know Blake I guess I don't want to say I know. I I think he doesn't choose to drink when he goes out. I mean, I'm sure he has, and he's just not telling us, but even when he goes to a a high school party, he'll be home at 6 30 in the morning and King are like, there's no way he drank last night because he would have been sleeping. Getting up at six o'clock to come home. So we'll see.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think that generation just watched their parents and was like, oh.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't need to do that.

SPEAKER_01:

Doesn't look that great. Yeah. Uh, is there any patterns that you saw your parents do that you swore you wouldn't do and you ended up doing when you were drinking?

SPEAKER_02:

Um, for me, it was my dad took a lot of things out on me as his only son. My stepbrother wasn't really in the picture, but and I and I told Katie, I'd never do that, I'd never do that. And now talking with Blake, he's like, Why did you always do that to me? And you start looking back, and it's like, I did do that. You know, I wanted him to grow up too fast, I think. I wanted him to know right from wrong and and and just do what's right and not make mistakes. And I never let him, I mean, he he obviously made mistakes, but he felt he couldn't because I would get upset. And it's a conversation him and I had, and I was like, no, it it's fine to make mistakes, it's fine to mess up.

SPEAKER_00:

It's important.

SPEAKER_02:

It's very important. That's how you learn. Like it's never gonna learn if you don't make a mistake. So that's where I know I fell into that trap, and my biggest regret is is doing that.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I'm very excited to reveal your words to you. So I asked you last week um to give me a list of six people that I could reach out to, and I reached out and asked them to describe you in six or seven words, and then I put all those words together and put it into five themes. So, how did you pick the people that you picked?

SPEAKER_02:

Um, obviously, my wife. Tony Faust is one of my best friends that I've known since fifth grade. Um he went he was sober for about a year, and and he had other reasons to get sober. And so when I decided to get sober, him and I kind of clicked. Umyssa is a good friend of mine from here that I I partied with a lot, and I was like, well, I want to get something from someone that I hung out with probably four or five times a week for the last six years to we don't hang out as much anymore. And not in a bad way, but again, like we talked last time, some people, whether it's me not reaching out to them or them not reaching out to us, it's it's a change for them too. Um, I forgot who else I put on.

SPEAKER_01:

Elissa was honored, she said, to be picked by you, so that was nice. Uh, do you have any guesses?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh loyal, trustworthy. Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm. Good guess. Your first word is loyal because four people said loyal. And I put under that category: loving, supporting, caring, family, and hospitable. So not surprising, huh?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, the second one is funny. Four people said funny. And I like that because that proves that even though you haven't drank for two and a half years now, people still see you as funny.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. It's been great. For the most part, nobody shied away from calling to hang out. You know, obviously there's there's times where they're people are doing things where they know it's alcohol heavy and they won't reach out in fear that they don't, again, don't want to be the one to set me back. But I still get calls all the time. You want to go do this? You want to go to a Vikings game? Do you want to, you know? So it's been good.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's great. Third is adventurous. A few people said adventurous, courageous, intrepid, daring, outgoing, energetic, and awesome. And your fourth word is tenacious, driven, disciplined, determined, dedicated, strong, focused, punctual, and innovative. And fifth is noble. You're admired and genuine and joyful, kind, fair, and moral. So AI and I wrote a synopsis for you. In the end, it's not the drinker people will remember, but the noble man who makes life lighter, chases adventure, lives by loyalty, and is driven to the bone. I like that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

What's one thing sober you does that drunk you would never believe? Talk to God. Never did at all before.

SPEAKER_02:

No. I mean, not in the sense that I do know. Before it was, you know, why would you do this to me, God? Why is this happening, God? You know, there was always the blame and the it's not my fault, whose fault is it, or why, you know, why, why? Where now again the gratitude comes in and just having the conversation with them of even of just how the day's going, you know. Thank you for great traffic today, you know. Um things like that. Drunk me would have never done that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's so great. So every time you did have with them was just blaming them and playing victim.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. You know, it's the whole divine thing this morning. I usually go to work, I'm in St. Cloud around 5 30, 6 o'clock in the morning. This morning there was a fatality accident on the road that I drive on. A little before me.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

But right around the time when I would have been in there. But I woke up this morning and something just told me lay back down. Hang out with Katie for a little bit. Like, because Katie didn't get up. Katie teaches in the morning too. She tutors foreign students online, and she's like, I'm not gonna get up today and sleep in. I'm like, well, then I'm gonna sleep in. Would have never done it. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh crap, it's six o'clock, I gotta get to work. And then driving to work and I see university and St. Cloud's closed because of a fatality. I'm like, huh. Reading about it was probably two hours before I was gonna go through there, but it was still shut down. So it would have just prolonged me even longer. So it was crazy.

SPEAKER_01:

My best divine timing story is one time we were bar hopping. We had a sober cab, but we were Katie Joe and I were explaining what divine timing meant to somebody. And then Katie Joe said, Hold on, we gotta turn around. I forgot my phone at the other bar. So the driver like slams on the brakes, and then she goes, Oh, never mind, I found it. And then like we're at an intersection where we didn't have a stop sign, but the other side did, and they ran through it right in front of us. So honestly, if we hadn't slammed on the brakes thinking we lost her, left her phone at the bar, T Ball, like perfect collision. And we were talking about divine timing, having a conversation about it as this happened. So I will never forget that. That's why I know it's it's real.

SPEAKER_02:

It's there.

unknown:

That's all.

SPEAKER_01:

So, what do you think about the last two years of sobriety? What's the part that no one sees but that matters the most?

SPEAKER_02:

It is a struggle. It is hard work. Um people that I've talked to are just like, oh, it's just you're not drinking, it's not that hard. And it's like, okay, quit smoking cigarettes then. You know, like honestly. Um but what matters the most is then I turn around and I talk to my 15-year-old, and she mentions on how proud she is because she knows it's not easy. And it's like, even though some people may think it's easy and it's not, the right people see that it's a struggle. The right people know that it's it's not easy.

SPEAKER_01:

The people that say it's not are lying to themselves about something.

SPEAKER_02:

They're loud. Holding back something, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Or maybe there's 1% of people on the spectrum of people that don't get addicted to things or don't have a problem quitting anything, but it's too bad that they don't have any empathy or understanding for how it is for other people and that our brains are all wired so differently to like different things.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's if you if you're not an addict, to tell an addict that it's easy is kind of a slap in the face, but like you said, they're hiding from something. Yeah. Why do you have to diminish it? You know, that was that was where I came when when this person said, well it's just not drinking. I cannot drink. Then why aren't you? Like, why are you diminishing my progress? Like what I'm not putting it on you. Like, you do whatever you want, but don't tell me what I'm doing is easy because it's not.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Well, anything else?

SPEAKER_02:

No.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, this is super fun. Yeah, this is great. Come on again in a few months. Anytime. Awesome. Thanks, Mike.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you.