Sober by Sunrise: The Night Everything Changed - Cody

The scariest part of addiction isn’t the hangover, it’s the moment you realize you’ve started living a double life. Our guest, Cody Cooper, takes us straight into that reality, from hiding bottles and bargaining with “rules” to a December night that ends with cops at the door and Cody out in the freezing woods, sobering up and finally admitting he’s drowning.

From there, the conversation gets wide and honest. We talk about quitting drinking when alcohol has been tied to sleep, anxiety relief, and even childhood “medicine,” and why sobriety can feel harder after the first year when the honeymoon phase ends. Cody shares what cravings actually look like in real life, how secrecy feeds relapse, and why saying the thought out loud to your partner can be the difference between a trigger and a spiral. We also dig into practical sobriety tools that helped him, including habit replacement, projects, accountability, and why he leans on NA options like LaCroix while avoiding non-alcoholic spirits that mimic gin too closely.

Cody also opens up about Navy culture, masculinity, leadership, mental health, and the identity shock of leaving the military, including his refusal of the COVID vaccine mandate and what an honorable discharge can still feel like emotionally. We end with spirituality, presence, and the hard work of learning to love your life without needing to escape it.

If this hits home, subscribe for more honest conversations, share this with someone navigating alcohol addiction recovery, and leave a review. What’s one moment that changed your relationship with drinking?

0:00 Welcome And Guest Setup

3:30 First Time Life Felt Like Drowning

6:20 December 11 And The Breaking Point

14:10 Arrest Morning And The Walk Back

18:20 Childhood Alcohol And Early Conditioning

23:10 Anxiety Sleep And Drinking As Medicine

27:50 Navy Drinking And Proving Masculinity

36:40 Choosing Forever Sobriety And AA

39:00 Cravings Secrets And Telling The Truth

51:40 Staying Sober In Social Situations

57:00 Practical Tools LaCroix Projects Books

1:00:40 Why He Joined The Navy

1:10:30 Marriage Trauma Mentors And Survival

1:22:30 A Mentor’s Suicide And Grief Drinking

1:34:40 Alcohol Depression And Suicidal Ideation

1:40:38 COVID Mandate Refusal And Navy Discharge

1:55:30 Identity Shock After Leaving Service

2:03:20 Leadership Failures And Veteran Advice

2:14:48 Spirituality Presence And Faith Questions

2:21:08 Hearing How Friends Describe Him

2:25:37 Backyard Wedding And Private Joy

2:32:36 Legacy Hopes And Final Reflections

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Setup

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Like all these times you try to commit. I get it.

SPEAKER_04 0:03

Yeah, and it it it's a hard affair to break off.

SPEAKER_03 0:06

Welcome to Superman, where we explore the inner and outer dimensions of the self. Today our guest is Cody Cooper. Cody grew up with my nephew Nick, so I've known him for a long time. He went off to the Navy after high school, has a very interesting story of why he got honorably discharged, and also quit drinking very abruptly, about a year and a half ago. I'm very confident that there will not be a dull moment in this episode. I hope not. I asked you to pick a song before you came on for us to listen to to get on the same frequency. What song did you pick?

SPEAKER_04 0:37

I picked uh Drowning by the Red Clay Strays.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Why did you pick it?

SPEAKER_04 0:43

Uh it's really dramatic for one, and it's really good. Um, but it uh kind of speaks to like the desperation you feel. Um one of the first things that I think that made me kind of feel that way um was probably when I was in Waukegan, Illinois, just out of boot camp, and my car quit working. And it was an idler pulley. Pretty mechanically inclined, but I had nowhere to no idea where to start, no one to call, nobody to help it, even get home when it's an hour and a half from home, and not enough money to get a tow. So you get an Uber, um, you get a new pulley, and an alternator, because you don't know which one it was for sure, and you spend more than you need to. Um a new belt and you put it in, and you kind of learn like, you know, this is life. I'm drowning, um, barely keeping my my head above water, kind of falling apart.

SPEAKER_03 1:45

Um you're like, yeah, this is life now, like I have to defend for myself.

SPEAKER_04 1:50

Like I can't call my mom, you know. I could, but what's she gonna do? Yeah. She can't show up. She's working, I'm working, you know? So that was kind of where it first hit, I think.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

How many more times have you experienced that?

SPEAKER_04 2:03

Countless, countless. And then after a while you don't experience it anymore because you're used to it. You realize there's maybe no one there to help you. You kind of have to learn things to figure it out, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

So when's the last time that you felt that?

SPEAKER_04 2:19

Big time would definitely be December 11th, for sure. Uh December 11th when um I'd uh basically decided to quit drinking was because um I did get away from the cops, but they got me the next morning, you know. I ran away. Basically, I was fell off the wagon.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

Um before that?

First Time Life Felt Like Drowning

SPEAKER_04 2:45

Countless times different amounts, right? So maybe a month for a while. The longest I ever went prior to that was maybe eight months. And when I jumped off the wagon, I didn't fall off, I jumped off. I was in uh Denver airport, bored, kind of whatever, and I thought I'll go get a gin and tonic quick, a double before my flight. And all I had was one, but it was the first one I had in eight months, and it hit me like a like a bus, and I felt pretty good, a little out of control walking through the airport, doing pretty alright. And the funny thing is, I told the bartender, this is the first drink I've had in eight months, you know, I was sober, and she uh didn't know how to react, and she kind of just said, you know, might as well do it at the Denver airport, you know. So that's where I did it. And then that led into me having to be a little more sneaky, right? And that's where drinking became way more binging, like con, like go out to the garage to clean. What I'm really doing is chug in three, four beers and a couple poles off a bottle, you know, and come back in, hang out. Well, what that led into was it was getting harder to hide because we don't have trash pickup where we're at. You have to haul it in yourself. Well, me and my wife, we haul it in together all the time. If I have, you know, 40 empties in a garbage can, you know, um, she would see it, no.

SPEAKER_03 4:21

So um because otherwise you were telling her that you hadn't fallen off at all.

December 11 And The Breaking Point

SPEAKER_04 4:26

You were just like Yeah, I was clean. And what ended up happening was I found the perfect thing. It was at a grocery store we recently had started going to. They had a bottle of gin, okay, and it looked just like a gas or an oil can. And I thought, holy smokes, I can put this in my garage, I can hide it, no problem, right? And so I did, and it lasted a day. Um, I went out there to prep um her Jeep to take out the transmission, do the clutch on it. And I thought, well, I'll have a glass of gin. And I mean a glass like that, and I drank it, and it felt pretty good, so I had another glass of gin and another. Next thing you know, I was out there for maybe three hours just drinking gin. I didn't organize anything, I didn't do a single thing. I was just sitting in a chair getting drunk. Maddie came out to check on me just to see if how everything was going. And I acted, I remember like happy to see her, but I was annoyed because I just wanted to sit there and drink, you know. Um, she went inside, something just started twisting in me. Um, and this kind of leads back into what other song I kind of wanted to do, which would have been Dirty Work. Or is it Dirty Work? Yeah, I think Dirty Work by Steely Dam. The thing about that song is it's like kind of he's singing about a love affair and how she her husband's away and you call me over and all this stuff, right? And to me, addiction and for me personally with alcohol is a lot like a love affair or a toxic love affair. Um, whether you're doing it behind your wife's back, uh, it's the same idea. But at some point that led to resentment, that love affair with alcohol, because Maddie was telling me I couldn't have that. And I wasn't telling myself that, not as much as she was. So that led to resentment, and it never truly felt like I was doing it for myself. Um, I always thought, like when I first quit, um my biggest fear is people wouldn't like me, people wouldn't think I was funny. I thought maybe my own girlfriend at the time um wouldn't think I was as interesting or fun. And I actually expressed that to her. And one of the best quotes she ever had was, You were the only one having fun when you were drinking. And how true is that? You know, I mean, I'd be partying so hard, expecting everybody to jump in with me, and when they didn't, it led to me like acting out more, resenting more, attacking more. Well, what happened that night, either her coming out to check on me or whatever, I don't know how it spun me through a loop. I had been traveling a lot, and there was so much baggage me and her had accumulated through that. We hadn't really settled, and I just came in the house so mad. I was mad because whatever reason you could pick, I was drunk, you know, and uh just got so hostile towards her and mean. Saying things that I would never say sober or even think, and that's for the old saying of like um drunk words or sober thoughts. I do not believe in because I have said the most awful things you can imagine.

SPEAKER_03 7:46

I used to say that too. I'm like, that it like that bitch is not real. Yeah, like, and I do think alcohol is called spirit for a reason because it comes into your soul and changes your spirit. Yeah, like it takes over.

SPEAKER_04 7:59

Absolutely, yeah. So anyway, I went in there, uh, just verbally attacked her. I mean, I was throwing stuff and yelling and just going nuts, and I'd never really done that. Like, I've been verbally mean to her before and uh things like that when I was drinking, but never had I gotten to the point of like violence around her, right? Throwing stuff around, yelling, and telling her to go away, but then getting upset when she did, things like that, just craziness, um yelling out hypocrisies left and right, nothing that makes sense. And well, I told her, you know, call the cops. I said it because in my mind, which my memory is very foggy, but I hope the reason I said call the cops was because I knew I was out of control, and I was genuine about it, and she did. And uh I had left, and uh, by the time I got back, there's the cops, right? We had this chandelier in our kitchen. This makes everything look way worse. It hit it was way too low, it hit me on the forehead, so I swatted it away and it broke, cut my hand. Well, I'm so drunk, the blood's just flowing, and I'm yelling and whatever during that time. So the house just looks like it's a bloodbath in there, and it's all mine from a little cut. Well, the cops obviously take that really seriously, and they came in and I took off to the woods, you know, just work boots on, no socks, and just gone. And I was out there for maybe three or four hours, and it was pretty cold, definitely below five degrees, I'd say. Uh, I don't know if we were negative zero at all or not, but what ended up happening were the cops called me trying to convince me to come back. And the first cop definitely could have had some training and de-escalation. Um, but the second cop was really nice, really good, and I still didn't turn myself in because I um the first cop was right. I was a drunk piece of shit. Okay. Uh next morning, around 6 a.m. comes around, and this is where that feeling of drowning comes in, right? I'm sobering up a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 10:09

Did you fall asleep out there?

Arrest Morning And The Walk Back

SPEAKER_04 10:11

No, no, I uh definitely wasn't gonna fall asleep. I was I was running doing J hooks in the woods, making sure no one was behind me, trying to hide my tracks. I was very scared of going to jail, and always will be. My my sovereignty, I think, is very important. Um but what ended up happening, uh it got very cold. I called my stepdad, uh, which is rare, I would say. I don't call him as often as I should, I think. But I called him and told him what happened. And uh surprisingly, he was just like very supportive and was like, maybe you should go back. I don't think you really did anything illegal, you know. Um, they probably just want to talk to you, you know. So I'm like on the phone with him, hiding in the woods, crouching, going, All right, I'm gonna walk back, you know, whispering, telling them don't tell mom. And I like crawl back and hide, walking in my tracks. We have this old van out there, and I saw the police already check the van. I could see their footprints. So I walked in their footprints, got in the van, and we had a blanket in there. We've converted it to a camper, so I'm wrapped up in there waiting. About an hour goes by, nobody comes. So I think must be clear. Well, here's the next thing Maddie's gone, but the door's unlocked. And she's the reason the door was unlocked. She she intentionally left it unlocked because she knew I was in the woods and cold, and despite all the awful things I'd said to her, um, you know, she still left the door unlocked, which meant the world. You know, that small thing was just so poetic, right? Well, I called my mom finally. And this is where, you know, you're drowning, and your mom can't give you a life preserver. You're gonna have to drown in this one, and she's gonna have to say, you know, you'll be all right. And uh so I call her and she basically asked me, Well, what are you gonna do? Because I was still a little drunk, and I was like, I'm not not getting arrested, you know, that's not gonna happen. And uh, she said, What else are you gonna do? And I was like, I don't know. And she's like, Well, are you gonna kill yourself? And this was the first time I really thought about that and said no, really, like in my life, you know, because I've always had suicidal ideations, but in that moment I was like, No, you know, and um so what happened at that point is Greg, the local cop, called me. He checked his email, saw I was on the run, and uh told me, you know, basically to come in and he'll treat me fairly. And I said, All right, no funny business. He goes, I'm from Texas, there is no funny business with me, whatever. So I told him I'd walk to the ATM, asked him what Bond would probably be. He told me, Go to the ATM, get it, come back, and you know, they pat me down, ask me kind of my side of the story, which is obvious. I was a drunk asshole, you know. So get arrested, they take me in, they treat me pretty well there. I'm still buzzing enough that I can make jokes, you know, like standing on my tippy toes, so I'm over six foot tall in the shot, right? And they let me, which is nice, but anyway, um, I get out of that and I have court and things like that. I have to go through where, you know, they're looking at you and you're realizing, you know, my ego doesn't mean anything in the face of this. Uh, they see me as like a drunk piece of shit. The same thing that first cop called me that set me off, you know. And he was right. Well, what ended up happening was I went to AAA like that next Monday, not because court said so or anything. This this situation made me realize I did not have control over it, you know? And the song, you know, dirty work kind of ties into that, where it's like something you know you don't want to do, you don't want to be your uh vice's fool, but you are. And uh at first it's fun and it's this thing, and after years it like just turns really dark, and you don't feel the same. And that like joy you get from it, the humor you get from it isn't as like impactful. Everything kind of just blends together, and then you regret it every morning, and that morning was the biggest regret, and uh yeah, so that was December 11th of what not the two years ago?

SPEAKER_03 14:40

Yeah, it's 2026 right now, 2025, 2024.

SPEAKER_04 14:44

2024, yeah. Yeah, so December 11th of 2024. And let me tell you, my mother and stepdad coming to my house for Christmas later after that. I mean, I was in tears telling them that I was just so thankful that they talked to me and that I wanted this out in the open, that we're working through it, you know, me and Maddie, and we're gonna figure this out. But I wanted everyone on the same page. Um, and what ended up working out was I will say I got clean and sober. I don't drink. Um, I have still addictive personality. You know, coffee and nicotine is a hard one to break. A guy could, but we'll take her one chunk at a time, you know?

SPEAKER_03 15:26

Yeah, make sure this is in the clear first.

SPEAKER_04 15:29

Yeah, so again, haven't drank, of course, had a few close calls. Even um, maybe a year ago, we spoke about vanilla and not being able to have that. And it wasn't more than two months ago, I think. I pull out vanilla from my pantry because I make oats every morning or every night, overnight oats. And uh I look at it, I'm like, why would she say that? You know, I didn't know for sure. I look 40% alcohol. I go, oh wow. And I stood there for I think 45 seconds, just staring at that bottle, thinking one sip of vanilla. I did it when I was a kid without knowing, you know. Um, and I ended up capping it, putting in the pantry, closing it, and going straight to Maddie and saying, Hey, I just want you to know that I just looked at a bottle of vanilla like it looked really good. And I said, So I'm not saying that I have an issue with it right now, but let's say you notice the vanilla is going empty every two days, you're gonna have to call me out on that, you know?

SPEAKER_03 16:32

Because um well, it's just good to say that out loud. Yeah. Because if you're just holding it inside and not like admitting to other people that you're having these feelings, then it just becomes another secret. And that's what like part of the addiction probably was too going to the garage. Oh yeah, and like you have the secret thing, it's just you and the alcohol, and you have the spawn and it like feeds your ego.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

And I think like it was like a battle between your ego and your soul that night of like begging for help because the reason you lash out to her is was really begging for help, actually, and why you said call the cops. You know what I mean? I believe that you did do that consciously, but the alcohol was like overtaking, and so they went on like a full battle, but guess who won?

Childhood Alcohol And Early Conditioning

SPEAKER_04 17:15

I hope so. I really know because if I'm just straight alcohol right now, that sucks. But no, I'm not. I'm happy that that I won. And I won't say I won, I would say I won the battle, right? Because for me and like liquor is um it's like hearing a heroin addict describe shooting up is like me with liquor, the taste of it, the smell of it, every um aspect of straight liquor, gin specifically, um just makes me very excited. Like, um, and that's kind of that affair idea, you know, because alcohol, if it was a woman, in some way it would be like the most perfect partner ever. Uh, but after two years together, we get really toxic. And the best way I can equate my relationship to alcohol is basically to anybody who's had like a severely toxic relationship where you like love the feeling of each other and there's like this energy. Uh, but after a while, once that energy wears off, you kind of get into like this monotone path of just pain and desperation, and that's kind of where I went. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

When was the first time you uh drank? How old are you?

SPEAKER_04 18:30

Less than five, I would say. Um drinking with me for sure has been my entire life, but I was thinking about this recently. Um, and yeah, I couldn't get a definite age, but it would be less than five, I think. Because maybe less than seven is more accurate, at some point like that. And what happened was I either had a stuffy nose with a really sore throat or something, and uh I can't say who for sure it was, but someone in the family gave me a shot of Everclear, uh, just a cap full. And immediately it was like, whoa, you know, that's pretty like that does not feel good. But what I ended up doing after that, um, not all the time, but once in a while, you know, you wake up, I'd have like severe sinus pain or something. I'd go in the liquor closet, I grab that bottle with the the nice label, pour a glass, well, not a glass, a small little thing in the bottom, and pull it, and I'd feel better, you know. So to me, it was kind of like this early thing of like sore throat, you know, booze. Um, what that led into, and it's so funny because you know, me and Nick Kelling, when I was 13, you could really see that path like lead up. And when I turned 13, um, he came back from California and I was so excited to have my best friend back. And he had a cool life in California and cool friends there. And I thought, well, I drank. I don't do anything else, but I drink. Um, you know, why don't we have a party at the cabin? You know, while all the parents were out on the pontoon, we went to every uh um camper and took like a few shots worth into a into a cup or a bottle until we took like just a little from everybody. It was a perfect heist, you know. Shoved it all under the stairs till after dark, and me and him just smoked swishers and drank all night. Went to the garage, drank more. Well, we ruined their shed. And it's funny, my graduation gift from them was a uh note I gave them apologizing, which was hilarious. Uh, but I didn't drink after that because I got caught for one. It was horrible. It's kind of the same situation that I was in a year ago, um, but as a kid, right? I got caught by the cops, mom and dad, you know, uh Steve and Nicole, you know. Um, and like that desperation was there. And guess what? My mom traveled for work, so guess who wasn't there for that? She told me over the phone, like, I know this is gonna happen. I just didn't know it was gonna happen this early, you know. Well, it all hurt me. I was real sick, and I decided I won't drink, you know, my body's a temple, whatever. And that lasted till maybe the beginning of senior year, and that's when I started like getting out, drinking more. We had a bar in the basement, a lot of booze was kind of unintended. I didn't do anything wrong, so I got a lot of trust, and so I'd hang out, drink until I was about to pass out or something and go to bed. The first thing I noticed senior year was alcohol helps me sleep. Like, man, if I have a couple drinks, I can just go to bed and I'm out. And that was such a nice thing.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

And because you hadn't slept well before that.

Anxiety Sleep And Drinking As Medicine

SPEAKER_04 21:56

Well, I think I was always. A really anxious guy growing up. I had pretty chronic anxiety and um probably paranoia too. Not like to the point where I'm like building a bunker, but just as a kid being paranoid is very strange, but I always was and uh very anxious. I always felt like I was gonna be in trouble. Or I'd think back to like yelling at my mom when I was a little kid and feel horrible about it, like deeply, right? I still think about those situations and feel horrible. Um, but it would just be hard for me to sleep at night. I couldn't trail off. I never found like a routine that would get me to sleep. If I read, I'd be up till four in the morning. If I listened to music, I might doze off and maybe dream of the song a little, but wake up again to the next one. So my sleep was never anything that was significant, maybe four or five hours a night. And uh so drinking, when I did that, you know, like I say, you could lay lay me down anywhere. I'd sleep just fine perfectly for eight hours straight. So that's really the gateway that got me really big into drinking um at that time. And again, it was another medicinal thing. Later, um, you know, and as a as a young man, drinking the way I was at 17, 18 was pretty gnarly. Like I'd go to parties and then decide I don't want to be here anymore, get my car, drive the back roads into a field, and just sleep. I wake up 6-7 in the morning the next morning, start the truck and go home. I mean, that's I guess better than driving into town, but it's definitely a strange thing. And I've heard a few country songs that mention that in a lyric, I feel like. And um the other thing that really led me to drink a lot worse in the Navy was once I got to the Navy, was competition, like uh being competitive. You're drinking with your friends, and early on in the Navy, it's not easy to do. You're really tightly constricted and you can't go anywhere. And that was kind of my first two years was like that. But I had a roommate named Seagroves, which I haven't talked to him in forever, but great guy. Been there forever, three years on this base, just being a rat, having to sneak, just having basic liberty, you know. So he would take meat and he would grill down at the lake. Well, he'd buy a ton of raw meat. He'd take all of his bottles and he'd put it in the bottom of the cooler, then he'd put the raw meat on top. So when you come into the the barracks, you have a watchstander who inspects all your bags, make sure you don't have anything like that. Well, they didn't want to touch raw meat, so he would be able to sneak in copious amounts of alcohol all the time. And he would do things like take dip pouches and pour whiskey in them, and uh me and him would like do those all day pretty much. But that was kind of a way to pass time was drinking then. And then later, when I was able to go to bars, I was 21, I was drinking heavily. Basically, I'd look at every single guy in the bar, every single thing they're drinking, and question their masculinity based off that. And the next thing you'd see me do is go up to the, you know, I see like a guy take a shot and chase it, and I'd be like, oh, okay, all right, let's see, all right. And then I'd go up there and I'd buy like, I'd say, you know, six shots of gin in a cup. And they'd look at me crazy and we'd laugh, and then I'd get shit six shots shots of gin in a cup. And maybe I'm looking at that guy, maybe I'm not, doesn't matter. I'd just drink the whole thing and show off and not chase it, you know. And it's because I love the taste of liquor, everything about it was just delicious, and uh seemed to be the only thing that could quench my thirst. Well, that was all well and good. Um, until you get drunk enough that you're competing with everybody and they don't give a shit because then you get mad at them. You're like, notice me. I want the competing. I'm cool. Look at me. I can dance harder, I can scream louder, I can drink more. Look at me. I'm having a party here. Um, and that just kind of like was super self-destructive, and that was kind of the status quo in the Navy up until maybe 2019.

SPEAKER_03 26:20

Yeah, I can see that the Navy would breed on competitiveness. Yeah, but did you have that in you anyways? Where do you think that comes from?

SPEAKER_04 26:29

The competitiveness, I think it was my quest for masculinity.

SPEAKER_03 26:32

Why do you think you had that urge to show your masculinity, though?

Navy Drinking And Proving Masculinity

SPEAKER_04 26:37

Well, probably to prove it to myself big time. Like a lot of people think I'm a pretty secure guy, and maybe back then thought so too. Uh, but learning what masculinity is when you've had kind of like a chaotic um like father situation and upbringing where you didn't have someone as often or consistently, and so I was always a mama's boy, uh, but I'm told I need to be a man. So what do you do? You know, you kind of have to figure that out. My mom's a pretty masculine person, not in like a negative context, she's just really cool. Um, and I kind of had to figure that out, you know, how to be like a bad bitch as a guy, you know? And that's not easy, especially when other guys see you cross your legs too far and are like, hey, that guy's weird, you know. So you have to find your niches, and a childhood memory I have thinking about me and my brother growing up and becoming men was me and him both having beards and drinking beer in the bar, like across from each other. And you know, that's like such a core memory that I always wanted. So, you know, you grow up and you're in the navy, you're away from your family, you're away from your brother, you're away from everybody. Making new friends, some of the friends you meet might seem real cool and manly and brotherly. And next thing you know, you've been drinking for three years straight together, and that's how that goes. And maybe you are cool, manly, and brotherly, but you're not really doing anything productive. But um you know, my quest for masculinity was probably a huge part of that competitive nature. Um, and I'm still in a quest for masculinity. I think everybody will be forever. I don't know what it is for sure, but that's what it was.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

Yeah. Well, I mean, that makes sense with um if that was your childhood with your dad and everything. Okay, so once you decided uh to quit, yeah, like how long did you stay in jail?

SPEAKER_04 28:38

Oh, didn't even really go into jail. Okay. Uh basically they just brought me to the jail and then kicked me out of the jail after I paid bond. And uh I don't know. I walked close to probably five miles in the that next morning. I kind of felt like it was a thing I had to do. I couldn't ask for a ride, I felt like, because who am I gonna ask? The person I hurt last night, you know? So why would I do that? So I'll just walk as far as I can, kind of see where I go and kind of start of an apology. Yeah, kind of punish myself a little, both for me and maybe for her, even though she wouldn't want that. I got so cold I couldn't feel my phone ring. And she'd been calling me. She was in town trying to find me. And I was already across town, out of town. I made it pretty dang far. Well, she picked me up, and first thing she asked me was, Do I smell cigarette? And I was like, Yeah.

unknown 29:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:36

Because I bought cigarettes the first thing I did walking through the town.

SPEAKER_03 29:39

Because you're like, I'm done with alcohol, I need like something right now to help me say goodbye.

SPEAKER_04 29:45

I guess I think in a way, like you grow up and you're watching 80s movies of the cool guy. You know, what's the cool guy do when he gets out of jail? What's he gonna do? And as you can tell, I still had an inflated ego from the night of drinking. So what's the cool guy gonna do? He's probably gonna smoke a cigarette and walk out. Yeah, you gotta play the scene out. Yeah, yeah. Um, and I'm sure that's a major part of it, right? But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

Yeah, so okay, making that decision. Like, were you certain in your head this time though?

SPEAKER_04 30:19

Like, no, not during that walk. During that walk, I was still trying to figure out like, am I still engaged? Am I doing the right thing? Why am I miserable? What's going on? I was still trying to find everything other than alcohol. Um, and what I ended up coming like to no conclusion that day. I mean, it took like I didn't drink the next day. I still didn't drink, and the next day I still didn't drink. Uh, but I realized slowly and kind of quick, but slow regarding the situation, probably within the first week, like I don't have control over this. Um, what I thought was like I could just drink on the weekends, which never works. I thought, um, no drinking after 5 p.m., you know, just keep changing the rules, trying to make it easier and harder. And uh so I don't know, that day wasn't the day I decided I was gonna quit drinking. It was probably a few days later. And really, it was just as my ego deflated. Because you have to imagine since 2019, pretty much chronically, I drank till I passed out every night. And unless I had duty or was underway, um, I was drinking until I passed out. Waking up at four or five in the morning. Normally my roommates waken me up out of a drunk drunken stupor to drive me into work while I'm still drunk. Like that was kind of my it was like two years of my life. And then after that it it changed to be more of a party drunk again, but with a really severe underlying depression with it. Like not talking, but you're partying, if that makes sense. Um so really what I learned was like not having any control over this, it's not fun anymore. I'm not gonna get married if I keep doing this. Um, I've hurt the only person that like I share myself with this way, you know. And me and Maddie were friends for like three years before we ever dated, and I'd never thought I could do that, right? And seeing the escalation and thinking retrospectively over, you know, three years together, what did I do? You know, and the nights you don't remember, and start thinking about past relationships and how you did things there, and kind of like, you know, getting the next morning hearing from someone you love, they say, uh, do you remember last night? They say it kind of solemn. And that's like the soldiers' minute, you know, you're like sitting there going, No. Right? And you're just hoping to God you did something funny or you hurt yourself. But it turns out nine times out of ten you hurt them. You said something awful, threw a wine bottle, it broke you. I mean that's pretty much it. I mean, yelling and throwing stuff, you know, and you hear that and you think about it, and you just see the fact that more often than not now when I drink, I'm losing control, and I don't know how to drink where I just have even a half glass of gin. It's not possible.

SPEAKER_03 33:31

But you spend all this time, which I did too, trying to justify, trying to compromise, like having this conversation with alcohol over and over again. Like all these times you try to quit. I get it.

SPEAKER_04 33:41

Yeah, and it it it's a hard affair to break off because it it's not just like out of your relationship, it's like it siphons portions of your life away.

SPEAKER_03 33:52

And uh including your actual physical body.

SPEAKER_04 33:55

Yeah, I was constantly greasy and like overweight and just uncomfortable, very bloated, and uh I don't know. I mean, health the health problems with it were insane. I mean, I was digestively ruined um and uh psychologically, I think I was pretty much gone. You know, I was like major depressive, but didn't even really realize it because I just kept pouring more booze on it. But so when you decided, when I decided I'd quit. Uh pretty much I went into AA.

SPEAKER_03 34:31

Um because all wait, all the other times that you had decided to quit, did you think like, okay, in a couple years I'll drink again though?

unknown 34:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:39

Always, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

But this time was it like okay, can never do it again.

SPEAKER_04 34:43

If I ever do it again, I'm killing myself. Like that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03 34:46

I mean, for years though, that I told myself, like, okay, if I just quit for a couple years even.

SPEAKER_04 34:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:52

But like until I was like, okay, I literally never need this again.

SPEAKER_04 34:56

Yeah, on my me and Maddie's anniversary in Wisconsin Dells, I had convinced her that it'd be okay for me to fall off the wagon that day. And I was okay, but it hurt her severely because now she's worried about the hurt she might, you know, brought. Um, but what I mean when I said like, it's like killing yourself, or you're basically killing yourself drinking, is like who you are as a person changes. And I've heard you mention it on here before, and I've heard it mentioned before otherware, other places is like we're chemicals, right? And whatever. So you start throwing weird stuff in there and you start changing, and it's slow enough you don't really notice. But let's say your buddy from five years ago sees you after drinking for five years. What do you think they'll think? You know, and uh I don't know why you'd ever want to do that to yourself. I don't know why I did, and for so long, my Because we wanted to be liked, like you said.

SPEAKER_03 35:53

Like, are my friends still gonna like me? Like, I think we're both like kind of I mean, I was class party air. You're like, you know, the party person, the like funny, yeah, you know, that's it's like such an identity change.

SPEAKER_04 36:05

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's exactly it. It's almost like you know, ego death. Yes, but it like trying to kill the toxic part of your ego is a lot harder.

SPEAKER_03 36:16

It wants to stay alive and it's pretty smart and it's been there for a really long time, so it knows how to manipulate you better than anybody or any other. It knows you inside and out, yeah, it knows your weak spots and it just loves them because it doesn't want you to change, it wants the familiar because what happened kept you safe. So let's keep doing what was been happening.

Choosing Forever Sobriety And AA

SPEAKER_04 36:37

Yeah, absolutely. So I'll I'll finally finish that point, like for real this time. I quit drinking December 11th, but I decided to quit drinking probably December 18th, forever, never to do it again, and it went great. Um, and it was the best decision I've made so far. And after one year, I thought it would be easier, but it isn't. Like it's almost harder. I don't know why, but it's it seems to get harder as time goes longer, which I think I've always heard the opposite. And I think maybe it's just getting to uh the end of the honeymoon phase of sobriety, and maybe now I have to like face the things that I was really burying with alcohol, um or else they'll they'll bury me again, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 37:27

Yeah, because you said you had these depressive episodes, and that was such a part of it. So have you figured out that stuff yet?

SPEAKER_04 37:35

I've done a lot better. Um like I I still have like pretty bad anxiety, and uh but as far as like suicidal ideations and things like that, um, that's actually been the most scary thing is the idea of not having them. I have to give a shit about my life now. It was really easy when I was okay with dying because that it was like a crutch. No matter how bad things were, no matter how bad I screwed up, you could just end it, right? Um and probably like a year and a half, two years ago is when that started to go away too. And when the suicidal ideations went away is when I really got like nervous about my future. Like, what have I done? Um, for the last five years I've lived like I was gonna die tomorrow, and now I feel like I've wasted those five years. You know what I mean? If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 38:29

So that's too bad. I hope you can let go of that because like who cares about the past? Every time you're thinking about the past, it's taking you out of now.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:38

And you're wasting that moment right now, then too. Absolutely to stop wasting that time. Um, thinking about the future or waste time too because you're missing out on the right now, but at least that's better than thinking about the past that you can't change. So I hope you can let that go.

Cravings Secrets And Telling The Truth

SPEAKER_04 38:54

I'm working on it. It's not the easiest thing. Uh I've always been told I'm an overthinker. So that's analyzing past, future, future, present, and just panicking about all three and trying to figure out how they correlate together in this exact moment. Next thing you know, 20 minutes have gone by and everybody's walked away from you. You know, you're you're not part of the party anymore because you're freaking out. Um and I guess that's where like something that does help me with being in the moment is photography. Um lots of times when me and Maddie take trips, I make sure to bring one of my cameras or two. Um, because especially with film, you have to like breathe and pay attention to what you're doing. Um, and in that moment, really what you're thinking about with aperture and shutter speed and your ISO, and you're kind of like, how do I want this shadow to look? What do I want this to look like? And you can't take a hundred photos and look at them and say, Okay, that one's the best, I'll keep doing that. You have 30, 36 photos, and um they cost about a dollar a piece to develop. So you really think about it before you take the picture. And what ends up happening when I do that is I'm not thinking about December 11th, I'm not thinking about April, whatever, and I'm not thinking about mortgage coming out in three weeks, even though it doesn't matter, you know. And uh what I am thinking about is this beautiful cliff in Iceland, you know, or this really cool guy who's wearing really long socks holding a broom on Main Street. Why? You know, took a picture, but it it gets you to look at the details more.

SPEAKER_03 40:31

Yeah. Most creative acts do, but the breathing with it especially brings you into the moment because you can't think about anything else when you're thinking about your breath.

SPEAKER_04 40:39

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 40:41

So the more often you can think about your breath throughout the day, it'll just get easier and easier.

SPEAKER_04 40:45

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, sometimes I'll tell you, it's like you you feel like you haven't breathed in 10 minutes, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 40:53

And that's the one thing that literally keeps us alive. I know when we take such advantage of it.

SPEAKER_04 40:58

Yeah, and then all of a sudden you're heaving for air and you're like, all right. Was that an anxiety attack? I don't think so, but it's doing all right.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

So still hard get or getting harder.

SPEAKER_04 41:09

Um yeah, harder for the like craving alcohol portion. But as far as like emotionally, things have gotten a lot better. Obviously, they'd have to.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Um, but but you still have to fix the reasons why you wanted to drink that way.

SPEAKER_04 41:25

Yeah, and that's kind of why those cravings have come up. You get in like this blissful six months where you're like, I'm not drinking anymore. Look at me. I'm I feel so much better. Look at me, I'm awake, I'm feeling good.

SPEAKER_03 41:37

Because that's the eagle making up for the eagle's finally like, okay, we lost this thing, this thing about me that I had. So what am I gonna replace it with? Like, oh, now I'm the non-drinker, and like you can get an ego with that too. Yeah, but that's not healthy either.

SPEAKER_04 41:50

Yeah, definitely. And what ends up happening is you're like that everybody's like, cool, like good for you. We're not gonna hang out with you anymore. I mean, not really, but my friends, it was hard, it was an adjustment. I asked one of my friends um recently, this last summer, one of my Navy friends, I was like, hey, um, what do you think since I've quit drinking? I think was my question. And he said I was more boring, which is obviously him busting, you know, giving me crap and messing with me. But it did hurt my feelings a little bit. I really felt like he didn't care that much, you know, and I kind of took it not personally, and then he could tell though, I think that I was a little bit like, oh, okay. And maybe 20 minutes later he said that I seem like I'm in a lot more control and uh I can he could trust me more. So he did, you know, clarify nicely. But what definitely stands out is him saying me being more boring, and that's definitely due to that insecurity of me thinking my friends wouldn't think I'm funny, you know.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

And uh I still have people that tell me that too. Like just a couple weeks ago, somebody was like, I was like really in a good mood and really hyper, and they're like, Are you drinking? And I was like, No, and they're like, Would have been cool if you were, and I was like, Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 43:17

Like well, at that friend's wedding, it's funny you say that because he uh he married a Japanese girl and her whole family came from Japan, a lot of them anyway. And uh they're all dancing and having a great time. And uh I was out there dancing, having a great time, and her aunt was like, Is he drunk? Is he drunk? He smoke weed. She was so curious to know if I was drunk or high. Um, and everyone was like, No, he doesn't drink, he doesn't drink, and they just thought that was the coolest thing that someone would be out there not not drunk, and uh really what taught me that that's like fun. Um, the first experience I ever had, like sober fun, was going to Nashville um with my friends, which Nashville is a hard place to be sober, you would think, right? Yeah. But it turns out most of your bartenders there are really cool if you're if you say, I'm an alcoholic, I can't drink. And they just help you out and they make sure your club sodas full and they hang out with you or whatever. Your friends get too rowdy, they look at you rather than security. And I think having a guy who's sober in your crowd's probably pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 44:24

Yeah, everybody needs one. They got a driver. And the hardest part for me about being out sober though is that I get tired faster because alcohol gives you energy and wakes you up and you're more talkative. Where like I'm like, it's 9 30, like I literally need to be asleep right now.

SPEAKER_04 44:39

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 44:40

But otherwise, yes, I would be out with because I wish I could help them get home safe and help them stay out of trouble. Like that'd be great.

SPEAKER_04 44:48

I think one of the biggest things that's hard about being sober in social situations is nobody talks to you as much. If you if like if you ever notice like the 60 to 90 year old man kind of sitting alone, um, even if it's in a big group, no one's talking to him, it's kind of the same thing. You like are an outlier. You stand out a little bit, people are nervous to talk to you because they you're like they either think that you're really innocent or you're just gonna like give them sage wisdom they don't want. And neither one people really want to be around when they're just trying to drink and have fun. So when you're hanging out with a group and you don't have a drink in your hand, it just seems it and it might be insecurity um over the situation, but it just does really seem like people don't talk to you as much. And when they do, they like talk to you really like externally and like sincerely and real quick. But it's not the same as like those drunk conversations you have at 4 a.m. with your mother, you know, and you're like sitting in the garage with your mom, wasted, talking about just life and having a great time, and the next week it's with your friends. Like that was one thing I always look forward to was talking to people um and drinking. Like, because you had some crazy good conversations, but guess what? I look back at all those conversations, I can't remember a single word. That's a good point. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_03 46:12

Because those were my favorite too, and it does get better. I uh went to the crow's nest a couple weeks ago and had great conversations, and that was one of the first times that I did, and I was dead sober. And because I think the other thing is that everybody's just a mirror for each other, right? So if it's hard for people to talk to you, it's because they're looking at you sober, and there's part of them that's wishes they could be too no matter what. There's like no matter how many times somebody says I don't care about how much I drink. Like they do because it costs money, they know it's not good for their body. Yeah, they know um they're not remembering everything or they're waking up more tired. There's nobody in the world that doesn't wish they could drink less. So you are confronting that to them. But you're also they're also mirror to you of what you missed. So you even if you think like I'm being myself, I'm being fine, I'm being normal, like there is part of you that is wishing, why can't I be like them? Why can't I be something that can drink casually? Yeah, you know?

SPEAKER_04 47:12

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 47:13

So it's hard, but I promise it does get easier, and you'll find yourself laughing and having a deep conversation, and you'll be like, Okay, it finally came.

SPEAKER_04 47:22

I don't want you to get me wrong. I've had deep conversations sober. Right now I'd count them as one.

SPEAKER_03 47:27

Yeah, but with a drunk person, I mean.

SPEAKER_04 47:28

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 47:29

Like you sober with a drunk person, and you'll be like, Oh my gosh, this is fun, and I remember it now.

SPEAKER_04 47:35

I mean, the the closest thing I had in Nashville, I guess, was like a couple guys coming up to me and being like, I'm not drinking after this. And that was really cool, and I felt good about it. Part of it was because one of our other friends was drinking way too much, and to the point where he um either accidentally or on purpose um mixed our drinks, right? Um and so I took a I was chewing ice like in a club soda, and I had like maybe a teaspoon of water down there, but it felt heavy all of a sudden. I thought, wow, my ice is really melted because I walked away from the table and he was sitting pretty far from me too. So I take a sip, and immediately it was just water-down whiskey. Hits my sinuses and throat. I'm like, oh man. And I look at him, he's like wasted and doing his thing. And uh like I love him and I have a lot of history with him, but I was so mad. I felt so hurt, not even like mad at him, I felt really like sorry for him. And uh I got up and went to my other friend and said, I'm gonna go back to the Airbnb. I can't be here. And he immediately was like, Oh yeah, absolutely, let's go. And he just walked, we walked like a mile all the way back to the Airbnb. And like that's support for one. And he just let me vent and talk about it and like kind of figure out what just happened and reassure me that my sobriety wasn't over because some asshole made a mistake. But I mean, it hurt, and even that situation alone was like a reassurance that, like, yes, I'm on the right path, what I'm doing is good. Um deviation may come, but it won't be at my fault, if that makes sense. So maybe I make overnight oats and there's a teaspoon of vanilla in there, and maybe that equates to like the smell of alcohol if I was going to smell a whiskey bottle. But if I don't know, it doesn't hurt me. And I will never drink ever again. Um, I've taken communion, and that was even a big deal. I didn't know if I would because the church we were going to does not have um like grape juice. It was just uh hot wine. And I was told that it was heated up enough that most of the alcohol was out of it. Well, they gave me a glass like this big and it's like full, steaming, and I go and I drink the whole thing. I'm like, oh, there's a lot of alcohol in there.

SPEAKER_03 50:09

Why did they give you such a big glass?

SPEAKER_04 50:11

They just kind of do.

SPEAKER_03 50:12

I don't know for everybody for communion?

SPEAKER_04 50:14

Yeah, I mean communions, so the way they do it, because this is a Orthodox Christianity church, so the way they do it's a little different. Like you can't just take communion, but they have like um open in the middle of wine and bread, like sharing in the feast, and it's kind of like a layman's communion, if that makes sense. I'm not fully part of the church, but I want to take the body and the blood and kind of worship that way. And so I tried it like once or twice, and then I was like, I don't think I can do that. I just can't. Like the it was just so much wine, and I like wine too, that I can't do that. And it makes me feel torn a little bit spiritually, and maybe at some point I'll be able to get past that. But that might be why some things are getting harder, is because as time goes on, I'm trying different things, like taking communion at church. Can I do it? And then I do it, and next thing you know, maybe a month later I'm having more cravings.

SPEAKER_03 51:11

They're probably connected because the ego's gonna find any little slit it can find, and it's gonna just keep trying to justify forever.

Staying Sober In Social Situations

SPEAKER_04 51:19

And I'm my my addiction to alcohol is so like core-rooted into me. Uh, I just have to keep really close tabs. Like I say, that's why I tell Maddie right away, hey, I stared at vanilla for 45 seconds. And she would never expect me to do that, she would never make that like a um mandatory thing for me to open up like that. And that's exactly why I do, you know? Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:45

Yeah. Wow, intense. Okay, I just want to make sure I'm not forgetting any other questions about alcohol. Is there anything else you want to say specifically about alcohol?

SPEAKER_04 51:56

LaCroix. That was my cure. That was a big uh thing I used to help with um not drinking. I drink probably close to six to twelve LaCroix a day, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 52:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:09

Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:11

It's such a go-to. And so nice that so many places are doing more NA stuff now, too.

SPEAKER_04 52:16

Yeah. Um there's a place in in town where we live where we had our flowers done for our wedding, and uh they have pretty good like non-alcoholic options because some non-alcoholic options, by the way, and I hope someone hears this, they do like fruit punch in a cup with ice and maybe a couple things, and they're like, Here's your sodi pop. It's just like alcohol. It's like that's not the same. I want it to taste bad. Like it's gotta taste bad. Put something some old school icky thing, you know, just to give it some form of like this is a bad thing to eat. Make it taste like medicine. Uh, because otherwise, why am I gonna order like a calorie-dense sugar drink if I'm not even gonna get like the not even a placebo, but like be able to socialize this thing.

SPEAKER_03 53:04

Oh, I have some, I've never opened it, some non-alcoholic tequila and maybe some gin too. I would give it to you because I've never opened it. But again, like I don't know what if that could trigger something of like I tried it one of the times I was sober.

SPEAKER_04 53:20

I bought a non-alcoholic gin, and uh I probably won't take it, although I appreciate it and I'd love to try it, but I won't.

SPEAKER_03 53:27

Uh but it just might trigger the brain and open up a pathway of like this is okay. Do you see how good this one? I bet I am good at drinking now.

SPEAKER_04 53:36

Yeah, and I don't like I know I could probably withstand tasting, like let's say it was the best best um synthesis, whatever synthetics. Yeah. Um that tastes just like alcohol. I mean, what's the next step after that?

SPEAKER_03 53:51

Yeah, that's when I want to feel that because I don't want to be the gateway to that. Yeah. Um, but it's interesting that you just said medicine again because you said that, yeah, was it when you did the communion that it hit your senses, your um sinuses again, and that's from your childhood. So it's like it's deeply rooted in your brain, I think, that it's medicine.

SPEAKER_04 54:12

Absolutely. Yeah. Well, medicine and masculinity, and basically those two main things I think alcohol is very rooted into.

SPEAKER_03 54:22

And um the book Um The Easy Way to Quit Drinking by Alan Carr. I mean, he really talks about how child since childhood, when it's like, nope, you can't have that till you're older. I mean, that is psychologically embedding into you that, like, oh, at some point I'm gonna get that. Like, so you're gonna want, you know, and like everybody hates the taste of alcohol the first time they try. Like you said the first time you didn't like the way it made you feel. Nobody likes it the first time, but then after that you were doing it because you liked the way it made you feel when you weren't feeling good.

SPEAKER_04 54:55

So it's like it's this manipulation, like spirit, energy, and uh it's when they say like like in mainstream religion, like oh, the demons and things like that, it's kind of the same idea. Um like maybe I don't believe fully that a red-tailed fork demon is in the corner of my bedroom forcing alcohol to me or influencing that, but I definitely think like on a metaphorical sense, absolutely, and it's a pretty good descriptor. And I think like ego could be a demon if you don't use it right. Um basically anything, and I don't know. I'm just a very I think I'm a very addictive personality type person too. Um that's why I love coffee and I love nicotine. And I don't hear a lot of people say I love nicotine. I think I say it more as like a cope, but it's probably not realistic. I think I'm addicted to nicotine, I don't love nicotine, but it definitely gets me through, especially with a cup of coffee. It's pretty good. But I'm working on uh stopping that as well. But we'll see.

SPEAKER_03 56:06

Any other tips for anybody that's trying to quit drinking and going through that pattern of find uh don't get bored.

SPEAKER_04 56:16

That'd be and that's such a stupid thing, really, to say, because it's like don't get mad, you know, don't get sad. There's no way to occupy yourself. Yeah, you gotta do something.

SPEAKER_03 56:27

Well, every habit that you're gonna break, you have to replace it with something.

Practical Tools LaCroix Projects Books

SPEAKER_04 56:30

Yeah, and so if that's you know, doing puzzles, do puzzles. Whatever can just get you through that hour that you're craving it, you know. Um, because there'll be there's gonna be a time where you think you're good and then you wake up in the morning and you're like, god damn, I'd love this. And maybe you have to come up with a plan B in that situation. If that's finally working on the truck that you haven't, or cleaning out your garage, or fixing something, start doing those projects because it's gonna give you pride, you're gonna feel proud of yourself in a different way, you know. And for me, with that comp competitive spirit, I kind of started channeling a lot of that uh motivation to drink into kind of like motivation to learn and do projects, if that makes sense, because it's a lot more healthy to do that than drink, and maybe you're still going through shit. Um but at the end of the day, you're going through shit and at least your truck is running. You know, you're going through shit, but at least you can find your wrench now because you organized your garage. And maybe the next time you're going through shit and you go in your garage and it's clean, you'll feel a little less shitty, if that makes sense. But I think that's uh not just finding things you enjoy, but find projects you gotta do if you want to be sober. Because looking around and seeing your laundry folded and done will make you feel better. It's just not as gratifying as drinking half a handle uh immediately. But over time, and uh your house smells better and everything's better.

SPEAKER_03 58:06

That reminds me of a TikTok I saw about like be your own butler maid or whatever, like fold your clothes, and then in the future you can get excited about it and get that hit of dopamine. Like, you know, it's not gonna be fun to do in the moment, but the next morning when like your clothes are laid out and your protein shake is already in the cup, you just gotta put water in. Like, that's when you're gonna get your dopamine heads. You gotta do the hard stuff first for the reward later.

SPEAKER_04 58:32

I think purging yourself of immediate gratification might be helpful, right? So maybe that is getting off TikTok or YouTube or even TV in general, but baby steps, you know. But definitely if you're cutting booze out of your life, you're you're gonna have to like figure out those dopamine hits because when you're drinking, you're also working on your truck. When you're drinking, you're mowing your lawn. When you're drinking, you're doing everything else. And uh so you have to figure out how to like you know coordinate that. And if you still get tons of dopamine from scrolling on TikTok, maybe and you're sober, and now you've spent three hours doing it. Well, you're kind of replacing a problem with a problem. Maybe it's not as big of a problem and it's okay for now. But maybe put in the back of your head this should change, and maybe I gotta clean my garage, you know. Um, that's probably my biggest advice is LaCroix and just kind of honing down on projects probably help a lot. And that's for me. I I don't expect anybody's story or path to go the the same way at all, you know. But for me, that helped.

SPEAKER_03 59:44

But for me, like the more podcasts that I listened to about it, the more books that I read about it and hearing other people's stories what really helped. Yeah, like know that I wasn't alone and that because I was like the weirdo, you know, like everybody else is like, why would you quit drinking?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:00

Yeah, you know, yeah. Everybody. It I don't know. Did you have that experience where like almost felt like judgment from people very early on when I first quit? It was like everybody seemed to go, Oh, you don't drink? And maybe it's because it's such a big change, you know, for me, and everybody expected that I'd always be drinking. But at the same time, it made me feel really weird about not drinking on top of already not drinking.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:27

Yeah, my friend's mom literally was like, I went a month without drinking, and I judge everybody, so I know you're judging us, and I'm like, No, I'm not.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:35

Yeah, that's like crazy.

Why He Joined The Navy

SPEAKER_03 1:00:38

Okay, so let's talk about the military. How did you decide you wanted to go in and go into the Navy specifically?

Marriage Trauma Mentors And Survival

SPEAKER_04 1:00:45

Uh a lot of people who were older than me in high school seem to be going the Navy way. Um, that or National Guard was really the only two people seemed to be going with, and I definitely didn't want to go into reserves. Uh if I'm gonna do it, I want to do it all the way. Um and really get the full experience. And my grandpa Ron was in the Navy, funny in hell. Uh, he'll be 50 till the day he dies. Um he just acts that way, very young. And uh so I thought, man, he sounds like fun. I'll do it. You know, I've heard his stories, all that. I really didn't know what I wanted to do after school. Didn't know what I want to do when I grow up, still don't, but one day I'll figure it out. So I joined the Navy and then got a tridid after like a year in depth. A tridid is where they didn't have as many people leave the military or retire or advance in rank. So there's not enough room for me to go in with the job I wanted. So they just got rid of it. I went back like a year later to MEPS, just before a year uh on the cutoff point and re-enlisted, which is interesting to re-enlist um before you've ever even served. But I did that and then uh got fire controlman. The actual billet is AECF, advanced electronics, computer systems, or something like that. Yeah. And uh my rate, which is like your actual job definition, was FC, which is fire controlman, um, which sounds like I was putting out fires, which isn't it. I was uh um like working and running um the defensive weapons on the ship, so that ranges. It could just be a computer program, it could be a radar. For me specifically, it was Sea Wiz, um, which in total I think I did about two years of school in the Navy for Sea Wiz. Um, and Sea Wiz is a really cool gun, shoots down missiles on its own, and shoot down air. Speaking of masculinity, yeah, you know, it's just I went to school for a long time for that, and I really nerded out over it. I thought it was cool. Um, but I I joined for those reasons, right? Like this is nobody gets to do that. No one gets to work on C Wiz. No one even gets to see it or touch it, you know. So I'll give it a shot. You know, what's six years? Um, so I signed the contract and I went. And uh boy, it was interesting, you know. Boot camp, I was kind of shell-shocked the whole time. Um, it wasn't as hard as I thought it would be. Um, just very stressful, very, very stressful. And then after that, you know, you get put in um Great Lakes like training center, learning center, which is just across the street from boot camp. And for my rate, that's about a year of school over there. And uh it's horrible. They don't give you any freedom, they don't let you leave. I was stuck there waiting for orders in total about two years, two and a half years. Um, so that was about a year where I was working an auxiliary security force on the gate, just gate guard. Um, I stood there with really cool Oakleys and an M4 and just yelled at parents taking pictures of the gate that shouldn't be, you know. Um which was interesting to do at 19, you know, you're just in like the ghetto of Joaquin, Illinois, with an M4 standing at the gate. It's it was unbelievable, but I thought it was really cool. And there was a lot of training that went into that that I'm really proud of. Um and then after that I transferred to um Damneck, Virginia for my last school, which was for Sea Wiz, and that was a blast. We only went to school for a couple hours a day. Giant beach we'd go to, bowling alley. That's where my drinking really started up, you know, because you have more freedom. I'm 21 now. There's a bowling alley, you can just get pictures of beer if you want, and go bowling with your buddies and hang out. Go to the 508 barracks, pass out in a chair like this, and wake up the next morning before school, still in uniform, and go to school, you know. It was like the seemed like the 70s Navy there, right? And it was fun. And uh once I got to my ship, I met Maddie there, by the way, before my ship. We were in holds together once I finished school, and she became a co-holds leader with me. Um very professional. Like, I would never flirt with a sailor. That's crazy to me. Uh, I think that's disgusting because we work together, you know? Like it's just wrong. Like maybe a sailor from 500 commands away, but not one that I'm directly working with. That's just crazy. So obviously, I kept it really professional. And I had met her before, but I knew she was like awesome and cool. Um so I just respected her right off the bat. And uh, you know, coming in with bumps and bruises from my other relationship at the time, my my marriage at the time, she was. You know, like see them. Um, I have a pretty gnarly scar on my head from one point at it, and I had to go into work the next day with like this golf ball protruding from my forehead. And of course, Maddie's like, what happened? I'm like, Oh, you know, buddy of mine threw a whiskey bottle at me and they don't break like in the movies. You know, I gotta play it masculine. I can't say, oh, you know, my wife tried to pull out a pistol, I stopped her, and she hit me over the head with a mug like this big, you know. I can't say that because the Navy will get involved, it'll go crazy. Um and so what I say instead is that I'm a drunk piece of shit, right? And when people would see claw marks on my neck and face and back, um so you got used to saying that about yourself, so it's kind of impossible not to think that about yourself. And that was before the drinking was real bad, you know. I was just kind of like, you know, I'm a drunk piece of shit. And uh had to tell people, like, oh, you know, we have wild sex. That's why I have these claw marks all over me. Um, but what they didn't know was she was like tearing the blankets off of me in the middle of the night and stuff like that, and just going nuts and clawing me and hitting me and going crazy. And if anybody did know, they wouldn't care. Um once people found out and the Navy investigated it, really what they said was like, would you call her crazy? Like that was a huge part of it. And it was like, no, of course, maybe a couple times, yeah. Um, but I never like think I deserved what happened at all for three years. And nobody was taking my side during, nobody took my side directly after. It wasn't until people saw, I think, like the emotional impact that I had that you know, like they were like, oh shit, okay, something did happen. What's going on with this kid? Because he went from like being kind of bright and bubbly to like really dark and gray. And my mother was super helpful um with all that, she was super supportive. But anyway, in the Navy, my drinking got worse and worse, you know, as a way to cope with a lot of things. Uh, when I was in C school, uh, my wife at the time, my ex-wife, was not with me. She stayed at home. And I thought, okay, this would be great. I kind of have uh um like some space to figure myself out. Because now I'm 20, 21. I've been having a really hard time now for the last year alone, and so I have some space. I'm gonna hang out with my buddies and figure it out and kind of pull away from this toxicity. And so I did, and then um I drank more, got yelled at more, um, and it kind of led into like a like a pre-coping cycle, I think. Because later, after, and I'll get to it, we I ended up going underway for the first time. Um, finally I get to my ship, met my mentor, um, FC2 Couch. Um, and uh I'll just say it, uh it kind of goes with this podcast, I guess. FC2 Couch was the guy who kind of trained me in on the ship and protected me um pretty big time, and I owe a lot to him, and it's just sad because he uh he committed suicide maybe like two years ago. No more than that, like while I was still in, so a while ago, and I didn't really process it at the time, and still to this day I'm still processing it. I have a really bad time about like pulling away from people I love when they pass or go through something, and like dissociating from the emotions, and I'm really good at that, and it can be helpful if someone's going through an emergency, but it doesn't help you when you're kind of like trying to figure out what's going on. And so I'll kind of lead back into that. I went to the ship, he checked me in, we hang out, we have a great time, whatever. Brought him Chick-fil-A, and he's just the coolest guy ever. Scrawny, homeless, homeless looking man. Um, probably the age I am now is how old he was then, around 28. And I really looked up to him. Well, when we went on our first underway, um, my wife had left, and for the first time in, I guess, three or four years, I'm going, what the hell do I do with my hands? It seems like the last three years I was kind of doing everything for this person, um, really walking on eggshells all the time, trying to figure out what I'm doing, who I am, how I live with you. I always thought I wanted kids by 20, but now I can't because why would I bring kids into this? Um, and now you're gone. Well, what the hell do I do now? So, what I did was um while I was underway, I got home and uh I called my mom. I couldn't, I was trying to leave my house. I felt really uncomfortable being in there because at this point she had lived with me there for close to a year, and before she left, she had done a huge number on that house and me, holes in the walls, just crazy stuff. And like for years after she had left, I would find beer splattered on the roof from a night where she was just throwing them on like everything, destroying the whole house. So I um I didn't know what to do. I was like broken. Um, I couldn't think about what I needed for my uniform. I just needed to put NWUs in my bag so I could go to my friend's house so I wouldn't kill myself that night, you know. That was really the plan. And it's crazy. This is how far like insecurity goes. I was so sure, like, ah, at some point here soon I'll kill myself, you know, whatever. This is not worth living. Um, but my insecurity was so deep. I wanted to ask for help, but I didn't want to invite myself to a friend's house, right? And I was new to the command and I didn't feel that comfortable with them. So I called the person I was most comfortable with, and he said, Well, ask him, dude. And he gave him the phone. I was like, is it okay if I come over? He's like, Yeah, come over. So I went there and I stayed there for like a day, and I think they realized like what a toll was being taken on me. And Couch called me up. He's like, Oh, come over to my apartment. Uh, you stay with me as long as you want, right? Cool. And I didn't know Couch too much yet. So I moved into his apartment. First thing I said though was like, I don't know if I should. I'm a little scared because if she comes home and I'm not there, she might freak out and she might come find me. That was my big fear. And him and his girlfriend, what his girlfriend said, she was a bit of a baddie too. She was like, if she comes around here, I'll fucking kill her. You're okay. Just relax. And that was the first two weeks and three years that I had where I was able to relax. And relax, right? Not compared to what I can do now. But at that time, for sure, it was helpful. And just knowing that like I wouldn't have to go to the door if she came was huge, right? And so I stayed with Couch for a few weeks. Uh, we drank beer, we hung out, watched TV, played video games. Like, he was kind of a nerd. I didn't expect that at all. Uh, couch, he was like this badass in my mind. All of a sudden, he's like, Oh, I got this game where you like build cars and you shoot at each other. You want to play? I'm like, Yeah. And next thing you know, later he's got an Oculus Rift, you know, doing weird stuff. But he was just a really cool guy, and I really trusted him. He had this thing about not wanting to touch anything that was cotton. Um, I think if it was wet, it might have been when it was dry too. The squeak it makes would freak him out. So a lot of times I'd have to help.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:11

It's like a sensory thing, like that noise. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:13

It was just something about it, and that was the only weird thing about the guy, I'll tell you that, which is pretty good. Um, but yeah, so I got to trust him a lot. Definitely he mentored me, and it was good. Helped me get to know everyone on the ship, helped me qualify for things, opened the door to a lot of things, opened the door to the chief I had that really helped with my sobriety, who was um the drug and alcohol dependency uh chief at the time, which obviously I had that door slammed shut as hard as I could holding it at the time. And he took over our command. And so my life at that time now, I'm on my own. I'm not staying with couch anymore. I end up having a couple roommates move in with me for free because honestly, they were there to keep a gun out of my mouth, I would say. And uh I'd get drunk, hang out, they'd wake me up, we go to work, and that's kind of where like my depression was the thickest and heaviest, and my alcohol was like horrible. I would just drink until I fell asleep every day, all day. The only time I was sober, like I said, if you could count it as sober, was 24 hours on the ship when I had a duty day every eight days. And every so often we go on like a one-week or two-week underway. During that time out to sea, I wouldn't be drinking because you couldn't. But the first thing I do when we get back, go to a bar, get a tall drink, and drink till I couldn't anymore. Well, um, my chief at the time, uh, who's in Alaska right now, he's amazing. Um, he was very receptive to me. And my mother came down when I made um second class, so E5, and he approached her and said, like, I know he's going through a lot, and basically I'm gonna help him through it. Like, and nobody told me that. It was just cool that he did that. My mom told me maybe a year later, and he did help a lot, you know, to the point where like it was like a duty day, and I'm this angry shithead sailor who's like kind of drunk, doesn't want to be there. I feel like the commands never had my back, and like, you know, when um my ex-wife had left, she was calling the ship all the time, telling them that she was homeless, and I'd kicked her out. So then the ship started to like think that I had kicked her out in Virginia in the ghetto, and she's living in a car, which is not what happened. I went underway and she left, and that was it. And so the command started like saying that they were gonna take half my paycheck or send me to mass and take my um rank. So I went to Navy Legal. First, that chief I'm talking about, he told me as soon as he took over, you're gonna do a family advocacy program, um, which is basically an investigation into domestic abuse at home. Um this is to protect you and also help me figure out the truth, right? Because he wanted to know if I was a piece of shit or not, and that makes sense. So what they did was they investigated, they had both me and her write in like a thing. I never saw what she wrote. They wouldn't take really evidence, um, photography stuff or anything like that, just dates and things that happen, which is fine. I mean, but I had it all folded up ready to go. They did a five a four-person um board for the Norfolk Naval Base to see if it was me or her. And uh they decided it was her. And what I got back was a piece of paper that said her name was moderately physically abusive against Cody Wayne Cooper, right? And that's it. All of a sudden, my name's free and clear. I don't have to worry about uh the Navy coming at me anymore. I'm protecting.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:07

Was she in the Navy? No, okay, she's civilian, yeah.

A Mentor’s Suicide And Grief Drinking

SPEAKER_04 1:18:11

And so now what the Navy was supposed to do in this situation was give me uh basically counseling, like, hey, you're beat for a while and you went through these things, let's talk about them. Here's a class for like picking the right partner, things like that, and here's like some therapy with a licensed counselor just to help you through it. And group therapy was another thing, but for some reason it seemed like the FAP coordinator really didn't like me, and uh she like just gave me the paper and that was it. Like, and by gave it to me, it was like that just a hand throw, and she just said good luck. And to me, it was like uh this is crazy, and I just got so disheartened with the Navy. There's been so many issues already, and that was just another one where it's like, where are you ever gonna have my back? You know, I really didn't do anything wrong. I just married the wrong person, and uh like I don't I don't want this, I never wanted this. Why am I being attacked? Why are you guys looking at me with like a knife in hand? And after that, things were better. My chief then really focused on like getting me through what they call the red zone. Red zone is like peak stress, that's where they consider you're about to kill yourself. And like that's the way they look at it is like your suicide rate is super high at that or your risk is high. And the Navy does a pretty good job about like categorizing things and training. Um, but what ended up happening was he would just talk to me, bullshit with me, make fun of me, and he was really good. I'd come in drunk like the next morning after a night of drinking, he'd say, I wish you'd fuck up so I could send you to the rehab I went to. Uh, because the Navy has a one-month like rehab where you like basically do group therapy for a month straight, isolated from everybody, which is great. I never got to do it because I showed up on time and got qualified and worked, right? So I was a very functional alcoholic, and he was basically saying, I can't justify sending you away for a month because you're too functional, you know. And uh either way, I disappointed him a lot, I made him proud a lot, I think. And in the end, I think I'll always have like a mentor from him for the rest of my life. Um, but his biggest advice to me to quit drinking was root beer, which was interesting, and I've I uh uh heard him say that because I was like, How do you go out to the bars and stuff and like not drink? Because I have a really hard time with that. He was like, first thing he told me was look at the drunk people and just do that, like be sober and watch drunk people. That's a big part of it. And then he said, also root beer, root beer, get craft root beer and drink it. And I tried that this um three years ago when I quit. I tried uh root beer and I got a nice root beer gut and quit drinking it. Switched to LaCroix, a little lighter, less carbs, but he was right. And another piece of advice he had, because at the time I had a partner and she was drinking a lot. We kind of met at the height of our uh addiction and we would just drink and drink and drink all day. I wanted him to tell me how to help her through it because I was trying to quit here and there, and the longest I ever got at that time was two weeks. Um, and then she came home with a six-pack of Mickeys and was like, There you go. I was like, Oh, hell yeah, you know, two weeks over. And um I asked him, like, what's the best way to do that? And he's like, Oh, just lead by example, you know. If you kind of make it the culture in the house, hopefully she'll just kind of do that. Well, that didn't work out, so it didn't last, you know. We broke up, whatever. Um, and we were both just like toxic, not like horrible to each other, but definitely horrible to ourselves in the relationship. We were both kind of just festering, if that makes sense. Um yeah, so I get towards the end of the navy. Couch committed suicide probably a year before I got out, and he was pretty impactful to my like quest to sobriety. Um he uh he was really drunk when he killed himself. One of our other friends from the command, who I wasn't as close to but appreciated, um he was the one who was uh like FaceTiming during this, and it was like 45 minutes of him trying to convince Couch not to do it, and Couch just drunkenly basically doing it on camera. And at the same time, my chief was the one that helped me through everything, who knew Couch really well, um, was trying so hard to get a hold of his command in uh Spain because if he could get a hold of his command in Spain, they might be able to send someone out to the hotel where he was staying and help him. But he hadn't even checked into his command yet. There was no resources for him, he knew nobody, and he went out there, you know, and I'm not gonna disparage anybody because I don't fully know the whole story, but he went out there to stay with his wife and he discovered stuff he didn't like and he wasn't able to be at home, and he was stuck in a hotel alone and drunk with none of us there, no one he knew around him. Um and just the whole situation was horrible. We all went to his uh funeral, and I look back on that day kind of like with a thought of grief, because of course, I mean, but like the grief is different, maybe some regret. Because during the wake, we like all went in there, and uh, you know, he he committed suicide in Spain and he did it by hanging, so I don't know, it was quite a while before the body could come back, and so there's a few things that were like wrong with him. Um, and it was open casket, and it just, you know, kind of the way it goes. Well, one guy fixed his ear, you know, it was stuck to the side, and it's hard not to laugh at that, you know, when you're talking shit to couch and fixing his ear, right? And it stays the way you put it, which is crazy. And so that little action kind of led into like shit talking couch, like kind of the same way you would on the in on the ship, and people laughing, like just probably 20 people standing shoulder to shoulder laughing at a body in a casket, right? You look back at that, it's really beautiful. It is, but I looked around at the same time and I saw the people who were also hurt and weren't laughing, and I think that was hard for them to process.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:09

And I bet they understand.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:11

I hope so. And uh even while I was doing it, it was kind of like, why am I doing this? But it was like this energy in the room, and it was hard not to match.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:22

And uh and that's how a lot of people grieve is through laughter and joking, and yeah, it's very common.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:28

Yeah, I'm glad. I mean, I'm glad I'm not the only one, at least. I mean, it was but anyway, we had the celebration of life. Um, we went back to his parents' house to kind of drink and hang out, and obviously I got really drunk that night, and I was an asshole. Not to everybody, just the person I was with, you know, of course, because that's the easiest target. You can get them alone, you can chew their ass, whatever you want to do. Like it's not good. And so I was rude and mean and then nice and then mean and back and forth, and obviously I'm upset about couch, and I basically spent the day I found out couch died. I say it didn't bother me, but the first thing I did was get in my car, drive to the Vanguard, which was a brewery, and drink for six days straight. That's what I did immediately.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:18

Why would you say it didn't bother you? Why would you even think that? Like again with the masculinity, like just thinking, oh, that's not supposed to affect me.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:27

That friend of me in Nashville, the one that may have purposely or incidentally swapped our drinks, that same person on the ship, I told him about couch passing the day after I found out, next day on the ship. And this guy drops to the ground in the fetal position and balls. Okay. So I see something like that. I never reacted that way. Not even a tear. Um, just completely like like stoic about it. I didn't, and I don't know why. I've done that for basically everybody who's passed in my life.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:07

Well, didn't you say you're good at dissociating?

SPEAKER_04 1:27:09

Yeah. I mean, and you can see that because I'm dissociating. I'm saying it doesn't bother me. I didn't really react. And what do I say 20 minutes later? I spent six days at the bar. Um, and I look back on those six days and I'm like, I was just drinking alone at like a table in a brewery I went to all the time to the point where my picture was behind the bar, and like nobody really talked to me because I looked so shitty. I was so upset. And I had a at the time a girlfriend at home I could have consoled in who knew him well, and I didn't. I just went to the bar and drank and took a big job.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:47

Tried to not think about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:49

Yeah, exactly. And um, you know, after that though, him being really drunk. When it happened, me being really drunk all the time, the history me and him shared, kind of how our friendship lightly fell apart towards the end before he left. Like it wasn't like we got into it, but we just kind of spaced out. Um, that was a big part of why I quit drinking. Like, I started kind of thinking about it. Uh, you know, maybe it's not healthy. He was a big drinker, a lot of shit, a lot of drama around him, too, when he was drinking. Like, he not so much his fault, it's just the guy he was brought it in sometimes. But I just didn't want to have any of the negative aspects of couch. I really wanted to like maybe be the mentor he was on the ship, and that was when he was sober and he was happy and good and fun. It was right after they got back from deployment, and he was super jacked up. So I don't know. I kind of wanted to follow that example, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:53

Yeah, what did it make you think about your own ideations? Did it change them at all more? Yeah.

Alcohol Depression And Suicidal Ideation

SPEAKER_04 1:28:59

So I guess at that time I was still okay with dying. Um I made a suicide pact maybe four months after that, right? Which I didn't even remember doing because I was so drunk. Okay. And I did it with one of my best friends crying um for like my a party I had at my house. He brought me to bed because I fell on my fire after giving a big speech about how much I appreciated everybody. I fell into a fire pit. He took me to bed. I cried and told him, you know, there's a possibility I'll be getting out soon. I don't know how it'll go. But if I kill myself, will you do it with me? And maybe that's how I said it. I wasn't, I don't remember. It's kind of how he told me I said it. And if like doing that is just psychotic for one. Like it's horrible to do. And like maybe I felt really scared and I felt really isolated because I'm about to lose all the structure that's been given to me for the last five and a half years. I'm about to, you know, kind of have a um badge of shame from it. Um and I'm an alcoholic and I don't have a big savings, and I've I've kind of fucked my life up. Like I've I've messed stuff up. And so now I'm about to get out and I don't know how to be a civilian. What am I gonna do? Well, worst case scenario, take the bitter pill and die, right? That was kind of the comfort I had. And but even that wasn't enough, so apparently I wanted to bring him in with it. Well, maybe two years later, I'm traveling for work. I'm no longer in the Navy, but I'm still drinking, and I'm sitting in an embassy in Napa, California. I had broke my ankle that night running from the cops, and then broke my team lead's ankle, pushing him over for yelling at me for getting the cops called. And his was a lot worse than mine. Mine was just like a little fracture. His he had to have surgery and stuff, right? And I think about that and I'm like, man, why would I do that? That's crazy. Um But I had like a a not like a realistic suicide attempt, more of like an attention one, like notice me yelling like to my wife. She wasn't we weren't married at the time, but just saying like you know, horrible stuff. Like, I'm gonna basically kill myself and you're gonna have to be alone, figure it out, you know, and just being awful about it, and uh I I kind of lost my train of thought just a sec. So that was my last suicidal ideation, and what I learned from that was like, okay, that one was more for attention. Uh it was the second one I ever really had, maybe third, it depends on your definition. With my friend Um who I made that pact with, he sent me a text that night because my mother was contacted and he was contacted, and what he had said was like brother, I really hope you're not gonna do it tonight. It'd be really inconvenient for me. I love you so much. I hope you're around. I didn't even know what he meant because I didn't remember making that pact with him. And uh he also had said, we can talk about this or we can never talk about it again. It's okay. Of course, he was one of the first people I talked to, and I told him what happened, and he was and like at that point it'd been a few months, and he was like, Yeah, dude, I didn't want to have to kill myself, but I made a deal, you know? And he was like kind of playing it that way, and he's one of the most like loving, supportive guys ever and loyal. Um, so when I just felt horrible because not only did I put myself in that position, but I put him in the position of having to use like his classical loyalty from like Russia, you know, and make him feel obligated to take his life even if things were going uh well for him. Yeah um, and so that time was the last time and probably will always be the last time, um, because it impacted more than just me. It wasn't just me private in a room failing at it because I suck at it and thinking that the next day. It was more like um I wanted attention, I got the attention, and everybody's hurt, you know, and why would I do that? Um so I I and that was only a few months before December 11th, I would say. Probably six months before then. So when that happened, I was sober and I thought I had control, and I didn't, and immediately just threw my life away in the same way I would have in Napa, California. And those two things kind of correlating with each other uh really impacted each other because on one hand it was like a suicide attempt, and the other hand, it was like alcohol drove me to um like almost kill myself as far as society-wise, like jail, get rid of my fiance, fuck this house, fuck my truck, whatever, you know. It was more of a different form of suicide, you know. And uh I think those two things really tied hand in hand was uh alcoholism, being an alcoholic, and uh suicide. And I mean, if you think about it, you're taking a depressant 45 times a day. What do you think is gonna happen? You're overdosing on depressants all day, and uh at some point you're gonna get really sad, you're gonna get tired, and you're not gonna really have that like dopamine anymore to say just clean your room. And now you're in a pile of clothes and you're smoking a pack of Marbot NXTs a day. You never thought you'd be a smoker, uh, you're drinking a bottle of gin, and that's not enough anymore, so you have to go get another, or just buy two. And uh nothing nothing's there to make you feel better, and so you just use like this nihilistic mindset of suicide as like a coping mechanism for how horrible you've made your life. Um and so now when I was in the Navy, I ended up getting kicked out six months early. And it was an honorable discharge, it had nothing to do with alcohol. I know Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:45

Well, before we get right there, I keep thinking about when you said on the phone when the local cop said, Do you want to kill yourself? And you said no.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:55

Right? It w that was with him, not your mom. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:58

And well, it was with my mother and also the cop.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:01

Okay, they both asked, and both times you just automatically said no. So I feel like that might have been like you really realizing it too. You know, like I I haven't had ideations in six months, but now that I'm saying that after spending the night outside in the cold, like now I know on my bones that I don't want to die.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:21

Maybe this would have been the moment, you know, and I didn't. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:24

And I don't want to lose Maddie and I don't want to lose this life.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:28

No, yeah, yeah, because I do genuinely love my life. I just have to learn how to love myself and love my place in my life. Yeah. Because me personally, I don't like I just don't think I fit in anywhere, and I'm not passionate anywhere, and I'm trying to find that passion.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:46

So um to compare yourself to others?

SPEAKER_04 1:36:50

Constantly, yeah. I mean past, future, and present of all people. Um some of my mentors, right, who have you know, like when people give you like a simple phrase to learn from. I probably couldn't even think of one from the top of my head, but just like an old saying a lot of times those phrases have always stuck pretty close to me. But it's the guy who told me that phrase I'm now comparing myself to. That guy who had the sage wisdom, I'm now saying, oh, he's a machinist. I have to learn how to be a machinist, or else what am I? And it that's why I say like a chronic kind of chase for my like masculinity. Um, because like the only reason I work on people's stuff why I'm mechanical at all, is because I thought that would make me more manly. I never wanted to be mechanical, you know, but I am, and that's how life goes. Um so I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:49

Well, there's some meditations out there. I've been working on being more feminine. You could like, you know, work on some balance stuff, some chi, like um yin yang stuff. Just to, you know, I have to do a little more research into that.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:02

Me and Maddie have this funny thing. She was raised primarily by a father. She is very masculine. Um, and I am way more feminine.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:12

And that might be why you're this perfect fat.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:14

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a rare thing, like at least in a rural area or in the Navy, to kind of meet up like that. And our history together is really deep and intertwining, and that all helps with it. But I don't know, we're just very comfortable in who we are together, and that does help because I can share, like, hey, I really want a drink, and she you know, will help me through that now. And one thing actually I should add if you're in a relationship and you're trying to get sober, be very clear and concise about like where you're at. Say, like, what this is what I did. I said, My name's Cody Cooper, I'm your boyfriend, and I'm an alcoholic. And I said that like a mantra uh for almost a year because when I first was trying to quit, she didn't take it as seriously either. Um, didn't see it as big of a problem. Kind of like, well, we'll still have wine nights, right? You know, we'll still go to a wine tasting once in a while, right? And you try that, and it was a learning experience for both of us. But I think if you're gonna be sober and you're in a relationship or something, you should really make sure you have good communication, or it's the best time to learn how to communicate, because you're gonna have to be really open about like your needs and what you're going through and want to feel comfortable. Um, and your partner hopefully doesn't judge you, and if they do, uh hopefully they do it with a smile and you guys can laugh together about it. But like it took a long time for Maddie to learn like no liquor, like we will maybe she'll have tequila in the house. I have no idea where it is. She hides it for our wedding. We had maybe 10 gallons of liquor. Um, and I never saw it. She bought it at Costco and then it disappeared. I never saw it. And that was something that wasn't normal earlier um before December 11th. After December 11th, we both learned like I have no control. So I think really good advice I can give is like clearly communicate your problem and uh make sure they know how like huge it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:28

Yeah.

COVID Mandate Refusal And Navy Discharge

SPEAKER_04 1:40:28

Um, but maybe you don't know it's that big, but maybe they think it is and they'll tell you, and you can just kind of meet in the middle on it at least somewhere. Um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:38

Okay, so in 2021, the Department of Defense required the COVID vaccine for active duty service members, but a group of Navy SEALs and other special warfare members, over 3,000 sued the Navy over religious exemptions. Um, it went to the Supreme Court. So then in December 2022, the vaccine mandate was repealed through the National Defense Authorization Act. So let's hear that whole thing and your experience.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:10

Yeah. Interestingly enough, COVID started. The Navy didn't care. They actually put out a training that, like, it's not a big deal. Don't worry about it. You're not getting time off, right? Then maybe like a month later, two months later, they were like, This is the biggest deal in the world, and you will not be coming into work. And uh we were all whatever, you know. We it was the best, like, worst and best, I guess you could say. Um, I'm getting paid to like only go to work every four days. That's not bad, you know. That's pretty rare, and I'm young and I'm getting this, so I'm happy with it. And um, the job was easy. We were in the yards doing cableway work, easy. Uh, but they um kind of started like with propaganda a little bit. The vaccines were coming out. They said, Oh, if you're an early guy to get the vaccine, you don't have to wear a mask anymore. So, of course, like 50% of the ship, I was on an aircraft carrier, so it's a few thousand people at least, you know, got it. And now they're told the reason they don't have certain liberties is because of sailors who haven't gotten the COVID shot, which isn't mandatory. And so now you have a bunch of sailors who are looking at you like you're a piece of shit because you have a uh muzzle on, they can see the mask, they know you're the guy who uh who's holding up the show here, and um they kept with that for a few months, kind of dividing um service members that way. Then they started putting up posters everywhere that was like pictures of our officers that would be like, I got this shot to save my wife and children. And it was just kind of like you know, I don't believe I don't believe that this sudden onslaught of like you have to get this shot is fair. Um at the same time there were layoffs going on um in the civilian world, um, people were told like you have to get this shot or you can't work here, which okay, but I thought it was wrong. And the the at the time the military uh was trying to set an example, um, and they always have. They have like sober cab that started in the military.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:37

Um the term, sober cab?

Identity Shock After Leaving Service

SPEAKER_04 1:43:39

Yeah, the use of it too. Um, and so they used to always say this to me when I first joined. We had this thing called heritage, where once a month you'd have to sit in like a building for a training of some sort. One of these trainings that was pretty constant and repeated was like what I just said sober cab and military starting that. What they said was that the military is always led by example to the nation, right? So what we do later down the line, civilians will do. If that's like good conduct or bad conduct, but the way we like have a culture in the military kind of will spread into the civilian world. Okay, so you fast forward five years. Now they're telling me I have to get the COVID shot. Well, Couch had just committed suicide maybe in the last six months. The way I saw it, based on the numbers, the Navy at that time, the entire service actually, had 28 deaths that were COVID related. The just the Navy that year alone had 200 suicides, right? Where's the shaking the big stick at that? Where's the let's figure this out now? I mean, just for example, um if you're working for a company, if you own the company, anything, and let's say you have a thousand employees or a hundred employees or fifty employees, I don't care what the ratio you're gonna make it is, you have one employee who annually kills themselves every year. If you had that in your company, what do you think's wrong with it? Right? Like every year since uh 1942, someone's killed themselves. Okay, and you multiply that, let's say if it's a thousand people, now you have twenty or ten. But either way, it's a big number. It's kind of crazy. And you would do something about it with your company of 50 people. You'd be like, let's figure out what the hell's going on here. But for some reason, with the military, they point fingers at you and they say it's your fault you're depressed, you don't work out enough, you don't you play too many video games and you're not qualifying quick enough. It's your fault, you're depressed. And on one hand, it is your fault you're depressed, right? At some point, you have emotional responsibility, right? And and there's something that you need to do. But on the other hand, they're ignoring every bit of pressure that they're putting on these guys for nothing. Like they don't trust any sailor with any responsibility, but they thrust it onto them. So you have this unwanted responsibility because if you're not gonna trust me with it, I don't want it because you're gonna scrutinize me all the time, and that's like the command. And they say work out more. Well, if you're on like an operational ship, you might have time to work out, or you might have to sleep at night, and you might only get four hours of sleep a night, and the rest of the time you're on watch. So you look at all this, and I used to have to give these safe trainings. Uh, it was an annual training about suicide awareness, and a big one, big portion of this is like let's say you're semen mulpey and you gave me that computer, I would now go, Beth, are you gonna kill yourself? And you might say, probably no. And I'd I go, okay. That's kind of how the training starts. Um if you're giving away possessions and things like that, things to notice, you know, um, which I never really saw from a lot of people who it's not a is that a real sign? Yeah, giving stuff away, um kind of like reminiscing a lot was one of them. Things like that. Um, you're supposed to just ask them directly, are you going to kill yourself? Um, and they say like that cold water bath of the question is normally pretty good to shock people out of lying, or you can at least read them better. But then the rest of the training after that is that it's your fault you want to die. You don't work out enough, play too many video games, that kind of thing. And I always thought that was kind of like like I get it. What's the Navy gonna say? It's our fault. Like we put too much pressure on you, or we don't give you the resources that are necessary. They would never say that. So what do I expect? You know. Uh, but I would basically take that PowerPoint that was printed out and put it on the desk at that point and be like, listen, guys, if you want to kill yourself, give me a call. You can come over and we'll have a beer and chat, we'll hang out, and it'll be cool. And if you don't feel comfortable with me, call one of your friends, do something. Um, and I would and I would always make the point to say, if you want to die, it doesn't mean it's your fault. And that's the last thing you should be accusing or thinking because you're only gonna feel worse. Um, if you want to die, ask someone to help you, you know, and if you don't feel like you can, you're in a dark spot, you know, and you should you should reach out to people. Um and uh that's kind of just all I'd tell them is like call a friend, hang out with your friends, and that's it, you know. And if and I would tell them like too, as the friend, be there for them and don't just immediately like throw them to the command, like get a feel for them, be their therapist for like an hour before you just throw them to medical and they get pumped full of SSRIs and they're no longer like the same person because the Navy loves doing that too, they'll just put you on tons of antidepressants and SSRIs like candy, and then now it's like a law that you have to take it. And I always just thought that was wrong, and it messed up a lot of people's lives in the Navy too, with um like libido and things like that, and just general like personality would disappear. Well, anyway, long story on that, but that's how I saw like the suicide issue in the Navy, and now I have couch going on, and at the same time, they're telling me. Oh, there's all these deaths from COVID. You need to get the shot. And I kind of thought, like, man, how about we fix one epidemic first? You know, the real one that I I see every day. That we can't even go a single underway that's only a week long where somebody doesn't attempt suicide. And a lot of these suicide attempts are directly related to poor leadership. Poor leadership that's like attacking people, like sending them to mass, having their money taken, having their time taken and their rank tanken. And then as soon as they get out of restrictions for 90 days, you send them back in on another charge just because you don't like them. And they can just do that to you. And I just don't think it's fair. A lot of sailors don't know their own rights. I would say probably the entire military. A lot of people don't know that they have rights. And you do. And you can do stuff to stop yourself from being hurt emotionally and physically. But they don't know that. And I didn't know that. And I got into a lot of hairy stuff because of that. And so I just saw all this and I was like, there's no way I'm gonna be the example that you want to set, which is oh, just get the shot and shut up. Um, regardless of political feelings on it or anything, it was just wrong to me. And so I didn't get it. And that was kind of a big choice. Uh, I was really scared to make that choice, and I had to meet with the like CO, so commanding officer, and the CSO and the Command Master Chief, and the Department Master Chief, and all these people. And they always said, like, I'm not gonna strong arm you to get it. And nobody really did, except for my CO, I would say. And he kind of just told me, like, you're either gonna be dead or a farmer. That's what he told me would happen when I got out if I didn't get the COVID shot. And I just kind of laughed at that. Um, because it's it's like insulting for one dead or or dead, homeless, or a farmer, he said. And so that really kind of like made me dig my heels in and say, You really think you could tell me, like Cody Wayne Cooper, that you know, I'm gonna be homeless or awesome, a farmer with tons of land. I'll take that, or dead, which at the time, hey. Um, so in my mind, I was like, well, either I'm gonna prove you wrong or prove you right, but two of those options don't sound bad, so I'm gonna take that, you know. And uh finally they had me sign uh different paperwork, go to medical and all this stuff, and they told me, like, oh, you you might get kicked out, you might not, you probably will, but there's a chance you won't. You might just get an article 92 and they'll take your rank, you know. We'll see. But we're gonna have you sign this uh 10-day notice um just in case. 10-day notice means that they gave you at least 10 days' notice that you're gonna be kicked out. Signed it. I think maybe close to a month went by. And at this point there was really no word on it. We were kind of just chilling. I had a lot of sailors who are younger um and lower ranking come up to me and like ask me like kind of advice on it. Um and the first thing I'd always ask them is like, are you refusing because you want to get out of the navy or because you believe in your rights? And uh they would say, like, pretty much every single one was like for my rights, but you could tell based on the delay, and that kind of ranged how much advice I gave them. Because if it was people just trying to get out of the navy, it's like just go fail two PRTs in a row and eat a lot of pizza, you'll get kicked out of the navy. You don't have to do it this way, you know. There's a lot easier ways to get out of the navy than like being publicly scrutinized for a year, you know. You could you could do it easier. Um, so that was an accused accusation that got launched at almost every sailor who got kicked out was that they were dirtbags, they didn't do their job well, we didn't want them anyway. They wanted to get out, and that was like the atmosphere they put out everywhere. Completely untrue. Um, in my opinion, there was a few dirtbags who got kicked out, but the majority of them that I had met on that ship, I think it was around 150 people in total were kicked out. I didn't meet all of them, of course, but the ones I did meet, only maybe 10 to 20 percent actually wanted to get out of the Navy. The rest thought it was a moral infringement of some sort. And if that doesn't tell you something, I don't know what to say. You know, it was just shocking to all of us. Um, my CSO, uh command systems officer, he had told me that he supported me, basically. Not word for word, but like he gets what we're doing. Um, and his brother would do the same, but he's about to retire, so he's not gonna risk it, right? He was a senior chief and he didn't want to risk his retirement. So he was trying to work out with his command, like the last six months, don't get it, like push for me to stay without getting it. Um, but even higher ranking people didn't believe this was a good thing. Um, and so I got out, and the way I got out was interesting because we didn't have like a personnel on the ship anymore. That's where they do all your like admin stuff. They told me, you know, go to personnel, you got paperwork to sign. I'm like, cool. So I get on my Harley. I drove into Newport News, downtown, go up an elevator into the personnel, and I'm like, hey, what's up, you know? And they give me all this paperwork and I'm signing it. All of a sudden I see it's my my DD214. Now, that may not mean anything to you guys, but a DD214 is the paperwork that says you're out of the Navy. That's your discharge. And I just signed it. Right? Well, um, they asked for my CAC and my shipyard ID, and that was it. I was out of the Navy. I got a call later that afternoon uh from my coworker asking me when I was gonna be back, and I was like, bro, I'm not in anymore. And that's when I realized the Navy is not like a lifestyle, it's not this whatever, not as it was. Wartime's different, things like that are different. I'm just saying, as it was, peacetime, chilling. It was just a job, and they can fire you just like you left McDonald's. You just that quick. And uh, I got an honorable. I'm sitting on my couch in my house in Virginia. What's the song? Drowning? Who am I gonna call? You know, my mom. I don't know if she can afford to help me move. I got a lot of shit. I got three trucks, you know. I got three trucks, I got furniture and nice stuff, IKEA. But to me at the time, that was like bees and knees, nice stuff. I saved up for that. And so I was I called Navy housing because they'll move you. I still didn't even have like my hard copy orders yet for being out of the Navy, so I couldn't get out of my lease that day. I couldn't get uh movers to come. They told me that there was like a two-month lead time on uh Navy housing just to start getting it set up. How am I gonna make money for two months and afford this house, you know? So I asked a few guys I knew for a job. I became a mechanic for a little bit. Um and at that same time, I'm trying to move all my stuff out of the house. I had a pickup and I got a storage unit and just started stacking stuff in there sky high. Um, still ended up my property manager got fired. She told me I didn't have to be out till like the end of that weekend. She got fired. New property manager came in and was like, Where's the key? Oh, me and Maddie were homeless for a day. Uh, we had to stay at a friend's house and uh basically move everything out that weekend that was left um that day. And so uh that's that's just how that went. And so initially out of the Navy, what are my thoughts? Like, what am I gonna do? Uh what am I doing? Uh who am I now? My identity's gone. Uh all my friends are still behind that thick wall. What do I do? Um, I'm a piece of shit, you know. I feel like crap, I feel embarrassed. And so what I did was uh smoke a bowl. It's the first time I could do that in a long time. So I did that, drank a little, and then I went, Oh, let's try being sober. Finally, I'm at the light of the end of the tunnel, I'm out of the Navy. It should be easy. So I did that for a few months, and then it fell apart. And that's where my sobriety really started um hardcore when I got out of the Navy, like trying, not like hardcore trying, but trying. Before that, there was a time I totaled a truck and smashed my face into a steering wheel and was like, all right, that was a problem. I didn't even know I was drunk, I was just drinking all day. Next thing you know, I'm crashed into a five-foot culvert, you know, and just walked home, got a tow truck to bring it back to my house, never got in trouble, you know, but could have, could have ruined my life, could have hit somebody, anything. Um so I don't know. I just decided like if the Navy, if the Navy doesn't want me, um, that's fine. I'll do something else. So I got out, did something else, um, and still wasn't happy. And I thought that was gonna be what would make me happy. And my advice to like anyone getting, I'll just say the Navy specifically. When you're getting out, uh, no matter how sudden or planned out it is, um like just uh what was I gonna say? Oh man.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:56

When you're getting out of the Navy.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:59

Yeah. I had it. It just it just slipped out.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:04

It'll probably come back. Yeah. So didn't you say that didn't you tell me that they made you sign something saying that it went smoothly?

SPEAKER_04 2:00:12

That's the 10-day notice. Okay. So that's them basically taking off all liabilities saying we gave him at least 10 days' notice that he's gonna be kicked out. And yeah, they did. But then they were like, You might not though.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:24

And then months go by, and then one day they're like, go to personnel, and you go to personnel and you sign and you're out. So to me, like it was like, okay, I could get out, but I was kind of calling their bluff a little bit because at the same time, the medal medical exemption, um, you had three exemptions or two medical and religious. Well, I may be like who I am, but uh, I'm not a liar, so I didn't do medical or a religious ways waiver. I just said no, it's against my rights and the rights of my family. I don't think it should be mandatory. That's it. I didn't sign up when this was a thing, and now it's a thing, and you're telling me I have to do it. I don't think that's part of my contract.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:10

And you got honorable discharge right away because I read that not everybody did.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:15

But then with that, um other branches I think didn't as well.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:19

But now they are all honorable instead after that.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:23

Um Yeah, that's good. I got it right away honorable, which was lucky. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:27

After the Supreme Court ruled with the Navy SEALs, everybody that got out is honorable. Just charged now. Yeah.

Leadership Failures And Veteran Advice

SPEAKER_04 2:01:36

Yeah, I'm really glad. The there was like a word that they were gonna let us come back in with back pay and apology. I thought, man. I talked to Maddie a lot about it, and I was like, if I went back, imagine I have my DD214 framed on the wall, and what it says on my DD214 is honorable or um article 92, gross misconduct, failure to follow order, um, failure to get COVID vaccine, something along those lines, and that's the reason for getting kicked out, honorable discharge. Now, my thought was like if they actually let you back in, back pay, apology, all this stuff. First off, I get like 100 grand, go back in. Um, they give me a written apology, which I was gonna frame and put next to my COVID DD214, and then when I got out again, I was gonna take that honorable discharge DD214 that just says good conduct for my um, you know, reasoning and put that one up on the wall because I thought it would be so funny and so rare and almost historical to have like that path on the wall. But I never got a phone call, I never heard anything, and I don't think they ever let anyone go back in. I think that might have just been like a political talking point, I don't know for sure. Um, but it would have been interesting, and I couldn't imagine how they'd frame that. I couldn't imagine going to the streets, hanging out, realizing that the giant lie that every upper command person tells you, which is like, you don't know what it's like on the outside, it's horrible. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do if you get out? Oh yeah, you're gonna work on cars? Good luck. Cars suck. And that's just how they talk to you when everyone gets out. So going back in and having some chief look you in the eyes and be like, what are you gonna do when you get out and be like, dude, I've been out of the Navy longer than you've been like ever. Like, I've been a civilian now more than you ever have. How dare you tell me what it's like out there? You have no idea. In fact, you're scared. Half the reason you're still here is because you're scared to be a civilian, you don't know what it's like. Um, you know, you're you're like taking lesser pay than what you get as a civilian because you have security of just like sitting there, making other people do all the work and chilling. Like that's a big part of it. And I don't think you see as many like work performance um meritocracy, at least where I was at in the Navy. Um, because most of the people staying in are people who like the safety of being in the military because you're really not getting shot at, you're making pretty good money. Uh, it's guaranteed benefits, you have a place to stay no matter what. Like it's a pretty safe option. But if you're only in for that reason, you're not gonna be a good leader, you're gonna be horrible. And that's all I saw was failure after failure of leadership and just disappointment.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:32

When you make it that much your identity, and then like every choice is based off of what they say you have to choose, and you don't get to choose for yourself anymore when that you're that into it. Pretty attached.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:44

The way I kind of describe how that stuff goes, like any procedure or idea in the Navy, is uh we're all in this room, there's a giant bowl of soup, okay? We all have forks, and and we're standing there around this giant bowl, and our only job is to eat this bowl of soup, and we're just sitting there with forks just scooping up drops at a time. I come in, I go, Why don't we use spoons, man? And everybody's like, Oh, we never thought of that. You start using spoons, it's going way better. And then your chief comes in and he goes, What the fuck are you doing? Oh my god, we use chopsticks, you don't do it that way. Freaks out, hands everybody chopsticks, threatens them, and leaves. And now the efficiency's gone, the morale's gone. Like, that's kind of like the best analogy I can give to kind of how things felt. Um, and it wasn't like that with everybody, but I saw a lot more disappointing stuff while I was there. Um, than I did see like things that made me proud, you know. Uh, and that kind of leads into another thing that I really like to say is just because someone's a veteran doesn't mean that they want to hang out with only veterans. Okay. Uh obviously I'm a bit different. I don't think I had the same experience everybody had, but if I'm at a gathering with people, he was in the in the Navy 40 years ago. And you have to be like, oh wow. And then they tell you all these stories about when they were in true or not, um, how crazy it was, and anything you say, they'll double. Um, and so it's just like I don't really want to get into a competitive thing with like an old salty guy because I'm not even really that proud of what I did. It was an easy job. It was chill. I learned a lot. I had a great time. Uh, I also had a horrible time, and some of the most miserable experiences of my life were spent there. I do harder work as a civilian than I did there. And I'm not saying like the military in general is like this big scam. All I'm saying is where I was at and the time I was there, they did not utilize me properly. I was bored and I was not very proud. And they treated you like a Boy Scout, they never gave you any trust. Yet they would tell you you're like the 1% and you're this fancy group and all this stuff. But same lie goes for when they say, like, you're all brothers and sisters. Um, it's not true. That same guy who's saying we're all brothers and sisters is like sexually assaulting uh E3 on the side. Um, not all of them, but it happens more often than it should. Takes an act of Congress to do anything about that, like get them uh kicked out. And uh I'm sure we hear more about like higher-ups who are doing this stuff than uh regular enlisted because it probably happens more with regular regular enlisted, but the fact that it happens in senior commands at all is insane to me. Um and it happens more frequently than than you would think. And there's plenty of people who can give stories about that, and I'm not the person to give those stories, but it's it's uh my best advice unless you're willing to go to prison for valor, don't join the military. Um because it it'll feel that way. And if valor isn't worth that for you, then don't join. If you're going there for like a paycheck and some college, you may not make it and you may be really depressed, and you may hate yourself at the end of it. And one day you're gonna get this is what I was gonna say. Your entire enlistment as a as a sailor or whatever, you're gonna look at this light on the end of the tunnel. One day I'll get out. This prison sentence will will be over. And one day you're gonna get out, and the world's gonna call your bluff. And they're gonna say, You're in the light now, how's it feel? And you're gonna say, Fucking sucks. This hurts. All that stuff that was bothering me, it was me making that hurt too. And now I'm on the outside and it still bothers me, but I don't have an easy thing to point to. All I have is me, and I have less friends now, and I'm alone. I'm drowning, right? So my advice is like make sure you like keep your friends. We made a group chat, um, the cager haters, they're the best group chat ever. Um, me and my closest friends from the Navy. We keep up every single day in it. Um, if it wasn't for that, I would be so sad. There'd be so much less in my life. Um, and it's not just like sending pictures and stuff. I mean, we're talking about stuff.

SPEAKER_03 2:09:47

This is your tribe, and we are literally as humans need a tribe. Absolutely that's how our brains are wired.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:54

Yeah, absolutely. And me, I like if I don't get enough social connection in too long, oh, I go crazy. I don't know how anybody could do that. Um, but like I say, we meet up every year at least, and that's people from around the country meeting up, and it's not easy to find each other all the time, but we do. Um, some of us will drive eight hours overnight just to see a guy for a day. Um, and it's it's amazing. That's been so helpful. So if you're a guy getting out and you're scared, make sure you have a couple friends that you can still talk to at least like once a week. Because uh at some point they're gonna get out too and they're gonna look at you for guidance. They're gonna say, You did it before me, now what? And hopefully you figure out enough stuff that you can help them and you don't just hand them a beer and be like, come sit in this corner in the dark with me and be sad and depressed. Um so I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 2:10:54

So it doesn't sound like you regret joining.

SPEAKER_04 2:10:57

No, I don't regret it. That's a hard one. Me and Maddie talk about that pretty often. That that word regret joining. Um do we regret it some parts, right? I lost parts of myself. Um parts of myself that I cherished a lot growing up, I've lost. And so I'm trying to find those again. And at the time, I would say it was worth it because at the end of the day, I met some of the most amazing people. I learned so much about myself and got rid of so many negative qualities about myself. Uh, and I wouldn't be where I am today without it. I I don't even know what I would be doing. Um, and so I'm really grateful for all the opportunities it gave me. And that's what my recruiter told me is Navy will give you opportunity, you just have to take it. Um, and so I'm very happy I got those. I just wish it would have been more like I was promised, you know. That's all. And I think I joined the wrong branch is really what happened. And then I was put in the wrong command. And you know, all these things.

SPEAKER_03 2:12:08

But there are so many other documented experiences fitting this pattern of harassment and intimidation. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:12:16

I mean, I don't think it's just the Navy that has problems. I just think if you were in more of a combat role, you probably you you you get a little more free like leeway to be yourself, to be a little more crazy and and chill. Um the Navy's like very uh strict about everything you do and their drinking policies, which is good, but um they kind of baby you so hard that you feel kind of like uh you have less trust than you did in in high school. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 2:12:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:12:55

We don't regret it. We say the best thing that ever happened is getting out. Um, and that's because you get some benefits for it. You get like VA loan and some tax breaks and things like that, and that's really helpful. Um and not only that, we do both have friends that we cherish, we have memories that we cherish, um, and some experiences that are mutual that in a relationship you would never have. I mean, me and my wife are basically trained together. That's pretty crazy. So at our our core, uh somewhere in there, if we're having a communication error, we can get real navy on each other and talk very professionally, stone faced if we had to, you know, and that's gotten us through some stuff, and I think that's just rare alone to be able to do that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:13:46

Well, I really appreciate that perspective and you uh sharing that experience because that's not something everybody knows happens.

SPEAKER_04 2:13:54

Yeah, I mean, and how common it is, I was on an aircraft carrier, it's a lot bigger, a lot more people, a lot more problems. So I don't want to discourage anybody from joining, that's the last thing I want to do. But if you're gonna join, like I say, make sure you have in mind that it's more than just like a college fund. Uh it's gonna really suck. And not just like oh boot camp's hard. Like you're gonna have people hurt you and smile, and that's evil, and you're gonna see it. And maybe you've never seen that before. And when you do it, might be really scary, but you need to kind of figure out how you're gonna handle it.

SPEAKER_03 2:14:32

So, yeah, yeah, very intense. I guess.

SPEAKER_04 2:14:37

I mean, that sounds like horrible, but I'm not trying to be intense, I guess, about it.

SPEAKER_03 2:14:43

But yeah, just honest. Feels really honest too.

Spirituality Presence And Faith Questions

SPEAKER_04 2:14:46

I guess so. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:14:48

Okay, well, let's get into spirituality. Why do you believe we're on this planet?

SPEAKER_04 2:14:54

Oh, to learn as much as we can. I mean, if we were here, it it's we're here because uh let's say you believe 100% there's a heaven, right? If you went to heaven the day you were born, what the hell would you do there? You know, what would you think about? What would you compare it to? Um if you believe in reincarnation, what would be the point? You're learning something um through the life you lived before. But either way, I think you're trying to accomplish some kind of challenge and learn something, accomplish something. Um and and that's my my real deep thought about it.

SPEAKER_03 2:15:37

So I love that. Do you subscribe to a certain religion?

SPEAKER_04 2:15:42

I would say I'm a Christian. Uh I tried Orthodoxy, might do it again, but you can't really try it. It's uh a little more intense, like just church, you're going every Sunday.

SPEAKER_03 2:15:56

So you're trying to f you guys are trying to find the right church right now?

SPEAKER_04 2:15:59

Yeah, and and Orthodox Christianity, Eastern Orthodox Christianity is pretty good. Uh it's a lot less like just coloring pictures of lambs. It's more like let's really talk about like spirituality and like Theotokus, which is an interesting thing. Um it's like the idea of giving yourself um 100%. And I'm not even qualified enough to talk about it, but it's it's just an idea that's like super positive and spiritual in nature. Um and they were more about talking about like the spirituality of the world, uh, rather than just how Jesus is a lot like um Luke Skywalker. You know what I mean? Like I've heard that analogy way too many times, and I'd much rather learn something at church if I'm gonna go. So Eastern Orthodoxy helped a lot with that. Um but I would say I'm a little bit more spiritual than I am religious, but I don't think you can be one or the other, if that makes sense. Uh like if I'm spiritual, there's I feel like that to me uh religion is behind that. Not like maybe um formal religion, but I I whatever your process is to become more spiritual, whatever spirituality is to you, I believe would be kind of your religion, you know, your step to get there. Um, so I think with religion to me, it's like you have the religion that helps you be more spiritual um and keeps you within a framework of that. Um but I feel like I'm more so pursuing myself spiritually than I am like with a relationship to God. I feel like I should also get a relationship with myself as well.

SPEAKER_03 2:17:46

Um so do you mean like rituals?

SPEAKER_04 2:17:50

Sure. I mean, what uh let's say you meditate or run or or sleep for 12 hours, whatever your thing is that helps you spiritually, I would say ritual. I took that a little more realistically, but yeah, the ritual you do uh to help you spiritually, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 2:18:08

Yeah, love that. Well, I think you should study hard for the next year and then come back and tell me all about it.

SPEAKER_04 2:18:14

Think so?

SPEAKER_03 2:18:15

Mm-hmm. About spirituality, about this certain Eastern Orthodox that you want to learn more about.

SPEAKER_04 2:18:22

Yeah, I mean I was pretty invested early on, but I was told to like temper your eagerness. That's a big thing.

SPEAKER_03 2:18:32

Yes, that's that's great. Yeah, because like it's the ego that wants to get to the next step. So I realize that with my meditation and the different layers that I'm getting into of um just just deeper realizations and my closeness with God. But then because I'm an overachiever, yeah, I am like, oh my gosh, okay, I gotta get to the next step. Like, hopefully, next week I can get to the next step. And it's like that's the opposite of presence to like have on my desk right now. I value presence over achievement because it's like my family and the upbringing that I had is that like like your value comes from achievement. Yeah. And it doesn't. Your value comes just because you're born, because God loves you and sends you here just to be. You don't have to do anything. You just have to be. So I think maybe that's kind of where whoever told you that it could be like the eagerness, like just take it easy, just be. Just like love God at the stage that you're at right now. You don't need to figure it all out because no amount of words are going to get you closer to God. Stillness and listening for him and letting him come into you is what's gonna get you closer. And that's the point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:19:43

And that's something that I really appreciated. Uh, when Andrew was on here, he had said, You asked him a question um if he feels closer to God at church or in the woods or in the forest. And he had said, in the forest, because he has more time there, he's quieter, things like that. And to me, I feel the same way, you know. And I have unfortunately not been able to spend as much time in the forest as I'd like. And when it warms up more, I'll be doing that a lot more. I plan on taking a nice sabbatical this year and going on a hike, but um I definitely understood what he meant. There's a different recharging feeling out there. Um, and if you're on a backpacking trip or whatever you might be doing, even 10 minutes in isolation in the woods is really good for you, I feel like. Um and that's kind of where I say more spiritually, you know, because maybe I wasn't raised as religious. Uh, I believe there is God, but I also believe like in my spirit, and I have to do something to temper that spirit, to prove myself to either God or whatever it might be, and that's what it is learning on this earth. Why are we here? Well, maybe it's to temper your spirit, make it better, make it stronger, your soul to curate it into something better. This is like school for your soul, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 2:21:04

I love that, and I feel the same way.

Hearing How Friends Describe Him

SPEAKER_04 2:21:07

Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 2:21:08

Okay, so now I am so excited for this segment um with you specifically because your friends were the friendliest. Really? Okay, I'll explain it first. So we're at this segment where I reveal to you how people see you. I asked you last week to give me the names and numbers of people I could reach out to and ask to describe you and some adjectives, and then I put those all together in themes so I can tell you how people will see you, and we do this because I think that we have such a hard time seeing the good in ourselves and the way other people see this. And I think it can be so surprising. Like, oh, they they notice that in me. Yeah, you know, so but yeah, out of every um guest that I've had do this, your um people wrote back the fastest and were the most excited to tell me how they felt, and just like friendly and like I can't wait to see it, and like just actually talkative. So, how did you pick this group? Is it all military people, a mix?

SPEAKER_04 2:22:09

So it's a mix. I'll tell you this. It your number of seven is a difficult number. It made me have to think. It made me have to think really hard. I was looking through my contacts, and you get to five, and you're like, I want my mom to do it, you know. Um, so the people I picked, a lot of them were from the military. I wanted to kind of make it a diverse stretch of my time in the military because some of these people I haven't seen for five years, you know, uh, but talk to. And then some people who are more recent in my civilian life. Uh, I think a couple of them. So I wanted to give you a good variety.

SPEAKER_03 2:22:47

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, um, you can tell how uh good of a friend you are by how good of people I feel like you ended up picking. Um, so yeah, this is good. Your first word is steadfast because two people said loyal, two said caring, also supportive, honest, principled, trustworthy, genuine, sincere, dedicated, and stalwart, which means loyal, reliable, and courageous.

SPEAKER_04 2:23:16

That's really nice.

SPEAKER_03 2:23:18

And your second word is playful, because you're whimsical, hilarious, fun, witty, mischievous, two people said goofy, ludicrous, spontaneous, unpredictable, and jovial. Jovial, which means cheerful and friendly. I didn't know that one. And the third word is captivating because two said charismatic, two said spirited, entertaining, engaging, radiant, and confident.

SPEAKER_04 2:23:46

Man, they're really nice people.

SPEAKER_03 2:23:49

Fourth word is perceptive because you're observant, analytical, introspective, wise, resourceful, visceral, and creative.

SPEAKER_04 2:24:00

Visceral, wow.

SPEAKER_03 2:24:02

Yeah. Number five is fearless because three said adventurous and two said courageous. And then six is practical because two said pragmatic. I mean, how do two different people like pick so many of the same words for you? It's pretty funny. In diligent, hardworking, grounded, and relaxed. And yeah, someone said, like, it's pretty difficult to describe him in seven words. And one person said, the best word I could use to describe Cody would be magnanimous. He has been through a lot of hardships in life, but he has always been there to lend a hand or an ear and grew in a positive way from those experiences instead of making him hard and bitter. Because uh magnanimous means generous or forgiving, especially towards a rival or less powerful person. So that is like an amazing word.

SPEAKER_04 2:24:55

Yeah, that's really sweet. Yeah, it's really nice.

SPEAKER_03 2:24:58

Yeah. So your synopsis is life doesn't stay quiet when you're around. You turn ordinary moments into stories, a little wild, a little wise, and always ready for the next adventure. And beneath the adventure is a loyalty that never wavers and perception that sees what others miss.

SPEAKER_04 2:25:18

That's very nice. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 2:25:22

Please remember you are not these words. You are not your thoughts. You are the space between the words, the space between the thoughts. You're the one who knows you have thoughts, observe them, reflect on them, but know you are not them.

SPEAKER_04 2:25:35

Thank you.

Backyard Wedding And Private Joy

SPEAKER_03 2:25:36

Yeah. So you got married just this fall. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_04 2:25:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:25:42

Everything goes smooth.

SPEAKER_04 2:25:43

Yeah, it was Megnan. Yeah, it went great. Uh, it was stressful. We did it in our backyard.

SPEAKER_03 2:25:51

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_04 2:25:51

Uh, but we wanted to do it there so that a lot of our family got to see it. Not many people got to see our house when we moved up here a few years ago. Um, it's a bit of a jaunt. I mean, I think we're three hours from here, so maybe four. So I get it. So we wanted to kind of have our housewarming party as our wedding, and it was uh stressful. I built all the tables. I bet. Maddie, if it wasn't for her helping, it would not have gotten done. When I was so flustered trying to figure out the project, she's coming up with like the math that we needed, which was really good. I really appreciate her for that. Um and we bought everything all the china, all the glasses, a lot of the uh furniture. We did rent chairs, but it turned out to be a very simple, beautiful wedding. Uh the people who helped, um, amazing people. Nobody had to help, and we in fact almost were like saying, no, but without them it wouldn't happen. And people had their own ideas and weren't super pushy, but the right ones came through and they came out really good. And I mean the wedding was absolutely gorgeous, and I couldn't imagine Maddie. I built stairs like two nights before the wedding to come down our hill. And uh she had a beautiful dress I hadn't seen yet. I spent all day the day of our wedding writing vows, and she did it all day the day before. And my only regret for the whole wedding is that I overthought my vows. I asked a lot of people for input. I Googled a lot of like what the form formula should be.

SPEAKER_03 2:27:36

But you didn't have AI write it at least.

SPEAKER_04 2:27:38

I wrote it all, but I kind of was trying to figure out what's right, what's wrong. So I'd never really done vows before. Before that, it was just eloping, you know. So um, that's my only regret is that I didn't just write them the way I wanted to, and the way I saw that I would. Um, and I overthought it. And I do better off the cuff than I do writing it down. If I would have just had to improv that, it would have been better. Um, but it wasn't a failure, it was just very direct. What I promise. Um, and hers was just amazing. I've never had anybody make me feel so proud to be with them, and to stand in front of everybody while she said her vows was like that was the main thing I was looking forward to for a long time. It was like people seeing me with her, me seeing her, all that. Just and and that. And I was shocked at how sweet her vows were and how well written and like loving, and it like broke my heart in a thousand places. Um, and even when her dad was walking her down those stairs, I started bawling. I didn't think I would, I didn't even think about it beforehand. It was just she was so pretty, and I had never seen her like that. It was this day of chaos, neither one of us could see each other. So I would stay in the garage while she was out, you know, beating people into shape. And then uh when that was over, we were supposed to swap. Okay, so what ends up happening is she's out there going, Cody needs to be back out here. Somebody go tell him we're swapping. People would come in and be like, What's up? But they wouldn't tell me we're swapping. So she's out there doing all this stuff. I was in the garage for maybe like four hours waiting, and I was getting frustrated because I was like, There's a lot that needs to be done that I need to do.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:29:28

And so last minute I'm in my talks, and uh there's like fabric that barely got stapled to the stairs. So Maddie's dressed their railroad ties, so they're gonna leave her dress black if she walked on them. So I wanted some burlap put down or something, and so I took out nails and started doing that. My stepbrother Ryan took over. Thank you for that. And then uh like we kind of handed the stained glass thing for our wedding because we wanted to make most of the stuff ourselves. Maddie's very crafty, so uh she would stencil, I'd fill in. Um, but we made like two swans that had her name and the date. The wind blew it over, it cracked. If I would have been out there, I may have, you know, noticed the wind blowing on it. I don't know. Uh, but there's just a few things that are last-minute hiccups as you're lining up, you're fixing, you know. Uh that was very stressful, but I was so excited. It was probably one of the happiest days of my life, and I know that sounds very cliche. I didn't think I would say it. I was very nervous that like the way I get at funerals is how I would get at that wedding. Uh, very stoic and not wanting to like show. And luckily, my feelings were so exaggerated. There's nothing I could do to stop it. I was very excited, very happy, just filled with joy. And uh nobody knows this, but I carried her across the threshold to our house finally. Uh, we walked in through the side door to get in there, and then while everybody was out there kind of figuring out what's going on, uh, gaggling together, right? Me and her go out to the front yard, and then I walk her in, you know, um, in her wedding dress, carrying her. And nobody knows we did that. It was our private thing, kind of spur of the moment. Um, but I really cherish that. It's just that little thing in the whole day, having a secret, you know, nobody was part of. It was just nice. It wasn't pre-planned, it just happened. And our photographer was amazing. Patient, herding cats, did a great job. And uh they even took some photos with uh 35mm with me, uh, for me with my camera, uh, which came out great. I had some awesome black and white film, which looks amazing on a beautiful summer fall day or sunny fall day. So yeah, our photos came out timeless and beautiful and great. And I would say the wedding in general was pretty, pretty much the same. It was it was its own thing. We didn't like shortchange ourselves on anything. We tried to keep everything really genuine um and cheap. Not like cheap looking, but as cheap as we could do it, if that makes sense. Because we want to go to Hawaii again, not uh not get married, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 2:32:21

You're never gonna need secrets with alcohol again. You just gotta keep building secrets with Maddie.

SPEAKER_04 2:32:26

Oh yeah, yeah. And that's a really good point, you know, and maybe cherish those more and think about them more often. You're right, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:32:36

When your grandkids are the age that you are right now, what do you hope that they do that you do?

SPEAKER_04 2:32:45

That I do?

SPEAKER_00 2:32:49

Well I hope they uh I'm trying to figure out the right words for it. I hope they uh They keep learning, right?

SPEAKER_04 2:33:05

They don't stagnatize. Um like when they're sitting and they've got another fourth hour of TV, they go, I could build a dresser. That's what I would like. For them to have that feeling um rather than being comfortable in stagnation.

SPEAKER_03 2:33:26

And what do you do right now that you hope your grandkids don't do when they're your age?

SPEAKER_04 2:33:33

Well I hope that they never have to, on the other hand of this, what I said that I hope they do do. I hope that when they do have time to relax, that they're able to actually take that time and feel safe and calm and feel present.

SPEAKER_03 2:33:54

So Is there anything we didn't get to? that you wanted to talk about or share?

SPEAKER_04 2:34:05

I don't I don't know. I think we did pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 2:34:07

Yeah. Really good. You're like a professional podcaster. You need to start your own.

SPEAKER_04 2:34:12

Alright, we'll get it done.

SPEAKER_03 2:34:15

Okay. Thanks so much, Cody. It was so fun.

SPEAKER_04 2:34:18

Thank you for having me.