50. Why Every Birthing Parent Needs a Doula

In this episode of Nourished with Dr. Anikó, Dr. Anikó  sits down with full-spectrum doula, nurse, and reproductive justice advocate Latona Giwa for a powerful and deeply personal conversation about birth, advocacy, and the maternal health crisis in the United States.

Together, they explore what doulas actually do, why their role is more important than ever, and how systemic failures in healthcare are impacting birthing parents, especially Black and marginalized communities.

This conversation also dives into the realities of maternal mortality, the gaps in postpartum care, and why culturally congruent, community-based support is essential for safer, more empowered birth experiences.

Timestamps:

01:00 – Introducing Latton GWA and her work in reproductive justice
04:00 – What a doula is and how they support birthing parents
14:00 – The emotional and mental health needs during pregnancy and birth
29:00 – What doulas do during pregnancy, birth, and postpartum
40:00 – The maternal health crisis in the U.S. and racial disparities
49:00 – What a maternal care desert means for families
56:00 – How doulas improve outcomes and support mental health
01:04:00 – Reproductive healthcare gaps and provider training

Important Resources Mentioned:

If you or someone you love is in a mental health crisis, call or text 988 (U.S.).

For maternal mental health support, the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline is available 24/7: 📞 1-833-TLC-MAMA

This episode is part of our Perinatal Health & Mental Health Series

About Latona Giwa, RN, BSN, IBCLC (she/they):

Latona is a Full-Spectrum Doula, Registered Nurse, Internationally Board Certified Lactation Consultant, and reproductive justice advocate. In 2011, she co-founded Birthmark Doula Collective, Louisiana's first only worker-owned birthworker cooperative. In 2017, she co-founded the New Orleans Breastfeeding Center, Louisiana's first freestanding breastfeeding clinic. Latona has elevated Louisiana Black birth worker and parent advocacy to channel regional and national media and policy action on the Black maternal mortality crisis. In 2023, she became the Executive Director of Repro TLC (formerly known as Midwest Access Project), which fills gaps nationwide in comprehensive sexual and reproductive healthcare provider training, education, and movement building. Latona has served on the Louisiana Pregnancy Associated Mortality Review, the New Orleans Maternal Child Health Coalition, and reproductive health legislative commissions. Her reproductive justice impact has been featured in the New York Times Magazine, CBS’s 60 Minutes, and Yes! Magazine. Her writing has been published in The Nation, Rewire News Group, and Huffington Post. Her forthcoming chapter on cooperative birth worker organizing in “Reproductive Health, Information, and Power” was published by Library Juice Press in 2025.

Latona Giwa, RN, BSN, IBCLC (she/they)

Connect with Dr. Anikó:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.aniko/

Website: https://www.draniko.com/

Thank you for listening to Nourished with Dr. Anikó! 

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Disclaimer:
The content of this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and does not constitute medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. The views expressed are those of the host and guests and do not substitute for professional medical advice. Always seek the guidance of your physician or other qualified healthcare provider with any questions you may have regarding your health or a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay seeking it because of something you heard on this podcast.

Transcript

 [00:00:00] Hello everyone. In this episode of Nourished, we are discussing pregnancy loss as well as mental health crisis. So please listen thoughtfully and feel free to set it aside if this is not the right time to listen. But if it does feel like it would be nourishing for you, please listen with an open heart, and I really hope you find some nourishing information here.

If you or someone you love is in a mental health crisis, please call 9 8 8. And if you or someone you love, need support [00:01:00] in the maternal mental health space, the MM MH hotline is free, confidential, and is available 24 7. The number is 1 8 3 3 TLC Ma, ma. Take good care y'all.

Giwa: Hello. Hello y'all, and welcome back 

Aniko: to Nourished with Dr.

Aniko. This episode is part of our perinatal health and mental health series, and we have a very special guest today, Latton gwa. Latton. GWA is a full spectrum doula, registered nurse, internationally, board certified lactation consultant, and reproductive justice advocate. In 2011, she co-founded Birthmark Doula Collective, Louisiana's first only worker owned birth worker cooperative.

In 2017, she co-founded the New Orleans Breastfeeding Center, Louisiana's first freestanding breastfeeding clinic. Latona has elevated Louisiana black birth worker and parent advocacy to channel regional and [00:02:00] national media and policy action on the black maternal mortality crisis. In 2023, she became the executive director of repro TLC.

Formerly known as Midwest Access Project, repro TLC fills gaps nationwide in comprehensive sexual and reproductive healthcare provider training, education, and movement building. Laua has served on the Louisiana Pregnancy Associated Mortality Review, the New Orleans Maternal Child Health Coalition and Reproductive Health Legislative Commissions.

Her reproductive justice impact has been featured in the New York Times Magazine, CBS's 60 Minutes and Yes Magazine and her writing has been published in the Nation Rewire News Group and Huffington Post. Her forthcoming chapter on cooperative birth worker organizing in reproductive health information and power was published by Library Juice Press in 2025.

Welcome, Laton gwa. 

Giwa: Thank [00:03:00] you. I'm excited to be here. 

Aniko: That's wonderful to have you here. And our episode today is going to focus on doula work, although I know you do above and beyond, um, what doula work is and then the needs it serves. We're also going to be talking about your advocacy work since it is aiming to address the exact things that doula work is also aiming to address.

And we had some lofty goals, or I did anyway about talking about breastfeeding but I think we'll just have to have you come back for a whole other episode because it's such a rich and expansive and important topic that I'm sure we could talk about all day long. So we'll save our deep dive into breastfeeding for another day.

But, you know, breastfeeding comes up, that's totally fine too. But I thought we could start by sharing how we know each other, which is, you know, we've crossed paths since in the perinatal mental health space. But the way that I first met you was that you were my doula for my youngest child. 

Giwa: Yeah. And it, it was an honor to be so.

Aniko: It's a, it's a very special bond and I [00:04:00] don't, I mean that's probably not surprising to anybody, but the fact that you were there with me through my pregnancy supporting me and really tending to me, I feel like that idea of tenderness and tending to somebody is something that I really associate with a lot of healing artwork, but, but doula work very much so.

And you know, in reflecting on this episode, and I'm going to share my story 'cause I feel like that's a great place to start to, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of listeners that are like, what is a doula? What does a doula do? And what better way to illustrate that than to share, like, what you did for me and what my first doula did for me, and how y'all accompanied me on this really sacred journey.

Um, that it really got me sort of thinking kind of for the first time of the space that I was in. When you met me, which was a really, really difficult charge space that I sort of had no idea that I was in it when I was in it. And then now that I'm out of it, I'm like, wow, that was a lot that you were walking into.

So [00:05:00] thank you for walking into that with me. Oh, that, that comes up, I guess. Um, yeah. Thank you for walking into that with me and helping me walk through it. Um, yeah, like I said, I haven't really talked about it much in that, in that framework of like doing this with you. I feel like we've had conversations about work and mental health and maternal mortality, but like, I don't feel like I've reflected a lot on like how much he supported me.

And I, you know, it was just so powerful and it was really life changing for me. So thank you. 

Giwa: You're so welcome. yeah, our birth memories are really powerful. They hold a lot. 

Aniko: They do. And, and, you know, being, being a practitioner in the perinatal mental health space, I know how important it is to share our birth stories.

And I will ask you after I've shared my thoughts, if you have any reflections, but I think it's really beautiful that, you know, to share with our audience that when I asked you like, Hey, do you have any memories of my birth? [00:06:00] And, and you're well, why don't you share what your response was? 

Giwa: Yeah, I think I said that I always am careful to make sure that my doula clients are able to frame their birth experiences in their own way with their own words.

I never wanna put my framing on top of that because I do just believe that is such a uniquely precious thing that is only yours. Right. 

Aniko: Yeah. 

Giwa: Um, and so I think, I think I invited you to, to share first. 

Aniko: Yes, yes. No, you're absolutely right. And I will invite you to share after, but I also just think that that's not something that we talk about a lot of how powerful sharing your birth story is, how it forms your experience, and that we need to really honor one another's birth experiences and not layer our stuff on top of it.

Because what maybe could even be traumatic to one person could not be that at all to one another. And the last thing that we wanna do, they always talk about [00:07:00] like, don't yuck somebody's yum. It's like, don't disrupt someone's like birth, birth story integration and birth memory and birth experience because it is this sacred transition and transformation.

So, I mean, I feel like I've really set expectations high with this intro, but, um, I. I'll just jump in. So you were not my first doula. I had a doula with my first pregnancy. Um, and that, you know, the whole thing just went smoothly. It was uncomplicated. I'd never had miscarriages before. I was intellectually aware of the possible negative outcomes because I'm a pediatrician, but I had no lived experience of that.

It was my first pregnancy. Everything went fine. Like there were a couple sort of worry points in the pregnancy, but other than that, fine. Um, and the way that I even chose my doula was just my friends were like our doula. My doula was amazing. I had a few friends who'd had her as their doula, and I was like, great.

Like, it, it wasn't like a big involved like interviewing, like I just had [00:08:00] decided that she would be my doula if she would accept the position before I'd even met her. So it was really like Stressless, no big deal. And I really, what I needed support in the first time around was childbirth. Like I was. I wouldn't say I was stressed about childbirth, but I was very intimidated by it.

So everything I read was about like hypnobirthing. I read Ina Mae Gaskin, I read, I can't remember if I read Mindful Birthing the first Time Around or the second, but that's an amazing book. Um, I read Mindful Birthing, but it was, I took a childbirth class, like it was all about how am I going to get through childbirth, this thing that I can't even sort of wrap my head around.

And I don't know if I'll be able to do it unmedicated. And I knew that I, you know, there were complications that could happen, that would mean that I wouldn't be able to do it unmedicated. But if at at all possible I wanted to do it unmedicated. And so my first doula's role was very like guiding, like she was very much a teacher.

Like she, and you know her, [00:09:00] so her like energy is very like mothering. It's very like elder almost, where she's like, come here. Like I'll tell you what to do. And that's exactly what I needed. And then she was like a masterful with words. A really good example that's sort of become like a legend in our family was I was laboring at home and I had this sort of irrational fear of like, what if I go to the hospital too early?

And that ended up like biting me in the end because like, I just refused to go to the hospital and I was super uncooperative with my husband. Like, he kept being like, I think we should go. Like, you know, doula had been called, she was coming over, midwife had been called, and he was like, I think we should go.

And I was like, leave me alone. Like I just was not listening to him. And then she came in and like absolutely took charge of the situation. And again, like she just crafted her words so carefully. I remember I was laboring in the tub and my, my contractions had progressed to pushing contractions at home.

Like at the end of the contraction. I remember even I [00:10:00] heard like, uh, 

you know, and she was like, well, so calm though, like perched, like on the edge of my tub. She was like, if you went to the hospital now. It would not be too early, you know, like she said, it's so calmly and used my own language. And I was like, that makes total sense.

And then all of a sudden, like I, I was game, like, I only followed her directions. Like when she massaged my back, I was like, thank you. And then my husband would do it. I'd be like, don't touch me. Um, and so anyway, so I, and I really needed that. And I remember one of the things that she said to me, again, just a testament to her words that were so powerful for me, um, was I was talking to her about like, I don't know if I'll be able to do it unmedicated, but I really want to.

And, and she was like, you know, I love seeing my unmedicated moms because they're just so, I think she used the words like, like just zoned out. Like, because they are so hopped up. I think she said on their [00:11:00] endogenous opioids, I think she said doped up. And it just reminded me, and I'm a doctor, I know this, that your body has its own natural response to pain.

So it's not like you're going unmedicated, unaided, you're just not using exogenous medication. So I found that super empowering and it's something that I always like to share with people. Um, and so anyway, so then when I actually gave birth, when I finally allowed myself to go to the hospital, um, I had a birthing tub.

And you know, it was very like, and if you know my kids, like, if you know my kids and I tell you the birth story, you will be able to identify which child this is, you know, um, took their time, very kind of picture perfect. I was in the birthing tub. And then very quickly my husband and my doula had this rhythm where she would wipe my brow.

My husband would hand me coconut LaCroix. And to this day, the taste of coconut LaCroix like takes me right back into the birthing room, which is such a glorious. [00:12:00] Experience for me because I love, it's such a precious memory for me. Um, anyway, and then, um, you know, baby came out, like head and shoulders came out and there's this beautiful like, go from pain to zero pain.

And my midwife was like, okay, pull your baby out. And I was like, what, what now? You know? and I was able to pull my baby out, like, you know, pick them up under their arms and pull them out. And it was such a beautiful experience. Um, and then my doula stayed with me and helped me latch for the first time.

And of course there were lactation consultants also there to support me. Um, and I was able to have an unmedicated birth. And I also wanna just say really loud and clear that all births are natural. So it's a little like I get a little bee in my bonnet when people talk about like, I wanted to have a natural childbirth.

They are all natural. You can have unmedicated medicated, you can have surgical, non-surgical, but they are all natural. So one thing that I like to mention is that I [00:13:00] came in with a lot of fight energy to the hospital. I thought that I was gonna be having to like, push people off of me that are like trying to gimme epidurals or something like that.

It turned out that both because I'm an integrative pediatrician in the community, so people like know me, they know what I'm about. And also because I was a midwife patient, the staff was fully understood the situation. They knew that I was somebody who wanted to do an unmedicated childbirth if possible.

And even the labor and delivery nurse had self-selected to attend a non-medicated childbirth. So I actually didn't have anything to push back against, even though I came in like ready to fight. But that is not everybody's experience. So one of the really important roles of doulas is advocating for your client.

Because when you are giving birth, and if you have given birth, you know this intimately, but you're like not very coherent in the sense like you don't have a lot of words. You know, like you are really in this sort of. A very alternate [00:14:00] space that's very different from every day where you are so in your physicality and you need to focus on your very important role of giving birth, not like explaining to somebody why you don't want this intervention.

So that role can be played by a doula or by a partner, but I think it's a huge role that I didn't have to end up meeting, but that many people do. And so anyhow, so then, um, with my youngest child, it was like a completely different story. Like I was coming in as a completely different person. And, um, you know, I'd had the two miscarriages and the most recent miscarriage I'd had relatively recently.

And so I was pregnant, and then I talked to my previous doula, and I guess she was on the cusp of retiring when she even was my doula. Um, and then she informed me that she was no longer providing doula services and she recommended you, which, you know, the previous iteration of me, that would've been enough.

I would've been like, great, you know? Um, but [00:15:00] this new iteration of me and, and again, this is only something I've reflected on in preparing for this episode. Like I did not trust at that point. You know, like, and I did, you know, I think at the time I thought it was my due diligence, but I was being like hypervigilant over-focused.

I started interviewing doulas. Like even after I talked to you, I think I talked to somebody else in your collective, like I was going so overboard trying to find that perfect person that would protect me from the outcome that I was so scared of. Um, and you know, obviously you can't do that. Um, and so what I was needing when you met me, and I don't know how it felt for you to walk into that space with me or when you first met me, but I know that I met with you with a lot of fear and anxiety and like suspicion and like, 'cause I didn't trust, you know, I didn't trust that things were gonna be okay and I didn't trust that I would eventually be okay even if things weren't okay.

You [00:16:00] know, and I, I, again, I think in reflecting on this, I was still in so much grief while also still trying to expect this new child joyfully. And I was really needing support and like to find that solid ground underneath me and also like find the sacredness that we're always connected to around me.

And I think a lot of times we do find that in grief. But it was sort of this, and again, I didn't realize it at the time, but it was sort of this really difficult duality for me to be like, try to be happy about, oh, I'm gonna have this baby while also really in so much, in so much pain. And so you met me in that space, right where I've already given birth.

So this isn't, go back to the basics, read all the books. This was, I, I don't know what you thought after you met me, but, but you know, the conversations that we had and the books, like, I have to give a really huge shout out to [00:17:00] you and also to birthing from within because it was this beautiful book that was really preparing me spiritually and not even preparing me.

It was like grounding me spiritually because I needed support just to be pregnant. I wasn't even really worried about the childbirth besides like a poor outcome. But there's kind of only, there's only so much you can worry about that. So I just worried about like everything else. Um, and, and sort of, you know, and it's almost comedic how sort of the universe put you exactly where you needed to be because you barely were even able to make it to the birth because the baby came so fast that the midwife almost didn't make it.

And then you came at the end of it when I pulled my baby out again. 'cause I'd requested if I could at all do that, I, I'd love to. Um, and you were able to film this deeply precious video for us where I, you know, pulled the baby out and, you [00:18:00] know, they came so fast that I was still, you can tell that I am still in this like, alternate state or altered state when they come out because I'm holding the baby and I just say, oh my god, like a thousand times.

I feel like any times my kids watch it, they're like, mom god, you sure say, oh my god, a lot. But that's how it felt. And again, deeply spiritual. You know, I always say, I wish I could give birth like a hundred times. It's the closest I've ever been to God. And not being God, but like being in the, like in the river of God, you know, in the presence like the, it's like you, you realize it.

Like God is everywhere, you know? And I just felt so plugged into that and just so connected to the divine, like pulling my child out of my own body where I grew this child. Like, like I cannot, I can't even find the words for how profound that all is. Um, and then afterwards, and this may sound kind of almost dumb to some people, but like, you brought snacks and you brought drinks and I was, you know, in my [00:19:00] first pregnancy after childbirth, I started getting kind of shock symptoms where I was kind of shaking and I got really nauseous and you were like, well, let me turn the thermostat up, you know, and I had gone unmedicated the second time as well 'cause she'd just comes so fast.

Even if I'd wanted medication, I don't think there had been time to gimme any, you were like, do you wanna take a shower? You know, and I took this really long, really hot shower where I think you came and checked on me and the nurse came and checked on me. 'cause everyone was like, she's been in there a long time.

Like, is she okay? And I still remember how nourishing that felt. And so, you know, I feel pretty comfortable in hospitals. I've worked in so many hospitals. But like even to me, it didn't occur to me to be like, Hey, do you want a shower? Do you have a thermostat? And again, like that's not where your brain is focused.

So it's so supportive and helpful for. Someone else who's experienced to be advocating for you in that space as well, right? We're not fighting off medical interventions, but you're like, Hey, how can [00:20:00] we make you feel even better? And then we had some postpartum visits that I remember talking about all these amazing things that like just weren't on my radar the first time around.

'cause first time around postpartum I was dealing with breastfeeding issues, which, you know, my doula steered me towards a lactation consultant. And then the second time around I was dealing with mental health stuff. And I do remember you coming over and just sort of, 

Giwa: yeah, 

Aniko: just sort of being with me in that space.

And so, you know, I'm just so grateful that like the right, clearly the right person came into my life at the right time for the person that I was in that moment. And you know, as much as the childbirth was straightforward the second time around, or I guess maybe the fourth time around, you could say, 'cause I've sort of like.

Had four childbirth experiences, but the miscarriages were not ones that anyone would, you know, want. Um, you know, that, that to me, now [00:21:00] reviewing it in my mind, I'm like, whew. There's, there's a lot of complexity to that, that you just sort of walked into this sort of spiritual crisis, you know? And I, I thank you for meeting it.

I imagine it wasn't the, the hardest one you've ever walked into either, you know, um, and testament to your work. So, so thank you. And I hope this gives listeners a sense of like how powerful and, and life changing the work that you do is. Um, and I would be curious if you have any reflections or any, anything that you feel like would be you'd right.

Match to share. You know, you don't have to either. 

Giwa: Thank you for sharing that. I, it's truly such an honor just to like. Sit and, and share those memories with you and hear here now, so many years later, how you've integrated that into your, your sense of your journey and where you're at. Really beautiful. So one thing I really [00:22:00] appreciated about you from the beginning and about working with you is that you understood that everyone deserves a doula, even if you're a clinician, right?

Even if you have a medical expertise, even if this isn't your first pregnancy or your first birth, that you understood that, that you deserve that right, and that you needed it, right? And I think in your story, you really, um, just now painted a picture that actually sometimes you need it more, right? The more, the more experience that you have.

Um, but both personally reproductive experiences and the traumas or the expectations that come with that and the need, the need to integrate that for, to be present for this current experience. And then also, you know, I do find that clinicians and quote unquote experts, myself included, we often need the support more, right?

[00:23:00] Because we're bringing into that room this long history of engagement with that system, expectations of how we will show up for it or how we should be treated by our clinical team. And to just be a pregnant person, be a birthing person. Sometimes we need help. We need someone to help facilitate the release of that.

So like you said, that you were able to just go into that zone. Um, and that is very much something I remember about arriving at your birth. I was like. She's in the zone. No. Um, there, you know, there really was no distracting you that, um, and that, that is, um, something I love, love, love about birth is when, when a client, despite, I mean the hospitals are just, you know, in some ways just designed to keep you from being present, right?

The lights, the noise, the staff, the interruptions. But despite all of that, that comes with a, a fast birth, [00:24:00] especially, you were fully turned inward. And I think that speaks a lot to your preparation and practice to, to be able to get there. Um, but also you were able to release responsibility for communicating with staff or any advocacy that might have needed to happen to making sure everything is okay outside of you and your one job of, of giving birth.

And that was really proud of powerful and beautiful to see. And I think too, as a clinician, but also as someone who's going through a lot, we can be really stuck in our head, right. This like thinking, worrying. And I think as you mentioned, you were very there when I met you. Right? And so a lot of, um, what I love to do with clients and it sounds like was able to do with you, is help get from head to [00:25:00] body, right?

The worrying work of pregnancy is normal, but the goal is by the time we're giving birth, to have the client be grounded in their body, trusting of that internal process. And it sounds like birthing from within, which is one of my favorite books, um, was really helpful for that. But I also think that that's so much bigger than any one individual.

One of my greatest pet peeves is that we expect pregnant people to do all this mental work, right? Because it's a dysfunctional system, there are very real harms and poor outcomes that people are afraid of, right? And now they're more aware of, such as maternal morbidity and mortality. And we don't educate people about pregnancy and birth before it happens, right?

That should be just basic parts of education. And so all of a sudden you're pregnant and you have to do all [00:26:00] this research, all this reading, interviewing, you know, um, all this mental work during a time when ideally you would just be getting to know your body and your growing babies. So I also just wanna name that that was your unique experience, but also it is so common.

Aniko: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think too, I, I like to talk about my birth experience because I think for some people it's the first time that anyone's like, oh, I wish I could give birth a million times. They're like, what are you talking about? And as you said so, well, when we had our conversation about this episode previously, you know, it's not to say that everybody will have this like.

Closer to God experience, but the way that we talk about birth in our society at the moment, like it's not even on the table. Like nobody even suggests that it's a possibility. And also I think that there's been this sort of like camp division of either it's [00:27:00] medical or it's sacred and like it can be both.

It can be both. Like sometimes the medical intervention like an epidural allows you to rest so that you can have the vaginal birth that you really want it to have, or it's an intervention that's lifesaving. Especially as an integrative practitioner, I'm all about using all of the tools rather than being like, these are the good tools, these are the bad tools.

Like, and having worked in hospitals for many years. I have experienced the sacred and the mystical in the most medical spaces. So I feel like sometimes it ends up being like, oh, I wish I could have had this like amazing sacred experience, but I ended up needing a c-section or, but I ended up needing an epidural.

And like that doesn't change anything about the sacredness of it unless it came at the expense of your agency and your dignity. I mean, even then the sacredness can be there, but obviously feeling like you had a lack or loss of dignity or agency during your [00:28:00] childbirth is, is very, very difficult.

Giwa: Absolutely. I mean, I, I have been to very beautiful C-section deliveries, right? Where it is a magical spiritual experience and everyone in the room is aware of it, right? I agree fully that the route does not determine, but experience and I. That is something I love about doula work is we are not coming with any particular agenda or judgment around how you give birth or what type of pregnancy outcome.

We just want you to have the most positive experience possible. 

Aniko: Yeah, because I definitely heard people say, oh, I'm getting an elective C-section, so I don't need a doula. And I'm always like, what? What you, you get to decide whether or not you need a doula, but I feel like it's sort of a lack of understanding of the kind of support that a doula offers that leads people to think like, oh, I'm not.[00:29:00] 

My birth isn't like a doula birth. So you know, we've gone through my personal experience, but that was just my personal experience. Can you explain to our listeners like what doula work is and maybe even give us some information about its origin? 

Giwa: Yeah, definitely. So a doula is a community health worker or health advocate who is accompanying the pregnant person throughout their entire pregnancy and birth or other outcome journey.

And so we are there providing informational support, emotional support, physical support, and often spiritual support. And there are different types of doulas, the most common that folks have heard of as a birth doula, right? So we're accompanying that pregnant person and and their family through pregnancy, birth, and postpartum.

There are also doulas, full spectrum doulas that support folks through any type of pregnancy outcome, whether that is a loss [00:30:00] or miscarriage, whether that is an abortion, they'll also accompany that client through that. And then there are many other doulas. There are deaf doulas, for example. Um, so that take that same spirit of accompaniment through another type of life transition.

And so for a birth doula specifically, that is gonna look a lot like what you described, where we are meeting with a client prenatally and we're really focused on education and integration. So we're providing resources, books we're, um, maybe directly educating the client ab about questions or concerns they may have for helping them prep for their visits with their midwife or obstetrician come up with questions to ask.

To ensure that they're as engaged in the process as possible and already practicing that self-advocacy so they feel empowered during their birth experience. And then the [00:31:00] integration piece, a lot of people don't think about this, but we all come to a birth of prior experience, whether that's you've had a child and you had a birth that was maybe difficult or not.

Or you had other reproductive healthcare, right? Maybe you have had negative experiences with vaginal exams, for example, or se sexual experiences, right? A lot comes into the birth room. If you've had a history of sexual assault, for example, that might impact your birth experience or just general clinical care, right?

You might just not like hospitals. So we're working with the client to process and integrate those experiences that sometimes no one has ever asked about or talked to you about, um, with the hopes that. It that those things don't have to come up for the first time in the birth room. If I already know that my client has, doesn't like to be touched without warning, right?

I am [00:32:00] gonna be extra careful to protect that space for my client to make sure that everyone is interacting with them in a way that helps them feel safe, right? And then during the first experience, we are on call and we, um, ideally show up, um, at the birth that's in super, super fast. Ideally, we're the first person that, um, shows up, whether that is meeting the client at their home or or at the hospital.

And we aim to be there uninterrupted throughout the entire delivery experience, which could be several days for a first time mom. And we, there's kind of a misinterpretation that a doula is on a defensive actor antagonistically, interacting with the rest of the healthcare team. I definitely wanna counter that idea.

A doula is [00:33:00] part of the care team. Um, we collaborate with and have really respectful relationships with, you know, the midwife, the doctor, the nurses. But we work for the clients, right? First and foremost. So I think a doula at our best, we have worked with our client enough already, and their support person, their family, who else is, who else is gonna be in the room, that we don't even have to say anything during the birth.

That's the best situation, right? Because we've already helped to facilitate a trusting relationship between that provider and that client. Partner is already equipped with their bag of tools to know when to say, Hey, can we have a minute to think about this? Right? But sometimes we do have to speak up and we're certainly there working directly with the client to say, Hey, what do you think about this option?

Do you wanna take some time and think about it? Let's reorient to your original goals and let's, you know, adapt with, um, what's happening moment to moment. [00:34:00] And then after the first we are there postpartum. And I think this is maybe the biggest impact that a doula has actually, because postpartum, um, and I know we'll talk about this, but I believe that in our society we practice post crime neglect, right?

And so we take a new parent and their brand new baby, and we send them home from the hospital and we say, see you in six weeks, right? Um, during this. Precious and vulnerable time in people's lives. And unlike many countries in the world, there is very, there are very few touch points and very little support.

Um, and so the fact that a doula does several home visits, checking on the client and their new baby and the family is so crucial. This is an opportunity to catch really important warning signs for things like postpartum mental health conditions, postpartum [00:35:00] bleeding or complications, and to just be a resource and support when families really need it.

Aniko: Yeah. Well, and you know, so many of us don't have any leave. You know, it's like if you even have leave after giving birth, right. Your partner likely doesn't have leave. And I remember I used to just kind of. Fit in the city and be like, gosh, there's, and obviously there's not a mom in every single house, but I would just think of like all these moms or birthing parents just sort of alone doing it by themselves and each of them sort of on their own.

And so it really, like having a doula coming can really be the difference between you literally just being alone the whole time or having not just somebody there with you, but somebody who is experienced and knows what to look out for and knows kind of how to plug you into support that you might need.

You mentioned, so I, I love that you were talking about doulas having this reputation and being like, adversarial with hospital staff or something, [00:36:00] which was not at all my experience. If anything, everyone was like, Hey, like, like old friends and they knew how to work and everyone had their own. Domain, you know, it's like the midwife is focusing on delivering the baby safely.

The doula is focusing on me and what I might need, or any sort of special considerations I might need. Like you were saying, somebody who's touch averse, somebody who's like, so somebody be like, Hey, hey, hey. No, that's like a, that's a very sensitive space for her. You know, something like that where you can't do it for yourself.

You can just really relax into just giving birth and you're absolutely right. I was like in my completely own universe when you came in and people were like trying to talk to me. And I just remember like opening one eye and just being like, who are these who are even like, leave me alone. You know? But so the idea, and I've heard it floated in many different circles that because having a doula is becoming more popular and obviously people are thinking like, oh, this is an area not only from a just money [00:37:00] grabbing place, although there's, that's one place that it's coming from, but also being like, Hey, this is, this is good care.

Let's provide it. I've heard many people float the idea of hospitals hiring doulas. And I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about it because in my mind, I love that the doula is not beholden to this hospital system. Like when you were talking about this is your team, like I'm coming in with my family and my team and not that I'm like afraid of the hospital system, although sometimes, sometimes we should be and some people should be, you know, and certainly black women have every reason to be more fearful of the hospital system, but just in that idea of sort of independence, to know that like your doula is sort of.

Is is only listening to you and your needs, you know, not at the expense of safety. But anyway, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on sort of the, I like these ideas that, oh, like hospitals will start hiring doulas and you'll get your doula through the hospital. 

Giwa: Yeah, [00:38:00] that's a great question. I really agree with the words you used, which was independence.

I think that in order for doulas to be most effective, we need to be independent from the healthcare institution that, um, is hiring the doctor that is billing for the delivery, right? Because there are a lot of well-documented mechanisms in place that influence the birth experience coming from insurance companies, coming from HOS or hospitals who are trying to make a profit, or physicians or providers who are encouraged to have a faster birth.

Right. Um. And so doulas I believe, could not be employed by hospitals, but I really do also think that efforts to increase access to doulas are important, right? So hospitals that genuinely want their [00:39:00] patients to be able to access a doula can do that in other ways. They can partner with and pay a contract for a separate doula organization, right?

Or they can use their philanthropic arms to give grants to doula organizations. There are ways to increase access that also protect the independence of doulas as practitioners. 

Aniko: I love that because you know, if anything in the US we're seeing all the problems in our healthcare system. They're kind of like all really coming to a head in many ways right now.

So to then like insert doulas into that already problematic system to me, doesn't seem logical at all. And I love these like other alternatives you're offering that you're like, yes, increase access. Give us some of your grant money, because a lot of these hospitals have so much money, it doesn't have to fold them into the system.

It can maintain the sovereignty and independence of doulas while still increasing [00:40:00] access. And so, you know, now that we are talking about healthcare failures and you know, we have an absolute maternal health crisis that I'm sure you can speak more to, um, given your expertise and in advocacy work and all your experience.

And that has widened the role of doulas, right? 

Giwa: Yeah, absolutely. So yes, unfortunately, um, perinatal outcomes in the United States are dismal and in our country we remain at the bottom in terms of maternal outcomes and infant outcomes compared to other developed countries around the world and despite spending much more than all other developed countries on that perinatal healthcare.

So we spend more, we have more technology. Yet, mothers are more likely to die or suffer severe morbidities from birth, and infants are more likely to die or suffer a [00:41:00] negative health outcome. And really importantly, that farm is racialized in our country. Right? So there are huge disparities between black and indigenous birthing people and infants and white families in the United States.

So in states like Louisiana, a black person giving birth is two to three times more likely to die in that year pregnancy. And in certain counties, in certain parts of the country, it's up to 12 times. Right? And our infants are more likely to die in the first year of life. They're more likely to be born preterm or very vulnerable in other ways.

Right? And we see those same disparities reflected in throughout perinatal and reproductive healthcare. Whether that's cervical cancer rates or you know, child health conditions. Right. And I think that really shows how pregnancy and birth are [00:42:00] very much at the center. That family health of community health, right.

And when we're getting this part of our human experience so wrong, it has these ripple effects throughout people's lives. 

Aniko: I'm loving that you're talking about this and I, I wanna expand even more. And then my initial question was, how is doula work widening to address this gap? And then what is the gap too, which is kind of what you were talking about, So I became very intimately acquainted with these disparities and this problem when I served on Louisiana's pregnancy associated Mortality review board, which. I say is one of the greatest honors of my life and also one of the most difficult experiences in my professional life because as a black birthing person and a black doula myself, to sit and [00:43:00] read through the stories of mostly black women in Louisiana who died almost in always through a preventable manner, was a very heavy experience.

Giwa: And, and I think it's really important to recognize those stories, to have spaces where we review them and try to learn from them so that we can try to prevent this from happening to anyone else. And there's a lot of secondary trauma that birth workers and providers experience as we also participate in this broken system, right.

While serving on that committee, I really came to understand very deeply that primarily black women in this state and then in this country are exposed to this onslaught of micro harms and microaggressions that build up to a state in which we [00:44:00] are simply more likely not to survive birth. Um, because all along the way there are ways in which our humanity is not fully seen by the people who are taking care of us, where the system is not designed for our.

Benefit and wellbeing and where assumptions are made about us and we're not really listened to. Right? And that results in medical mistakes. It results in information being missing from our charts. It results in people not listening when we ask for help. And that is literally dangerous. Literally deadly.

Deadly. And we, the doulas have, I would say all the doulas have existed always. And there are African American history museums that have records of doula, like accomp who have attended to women giving birth throughout this country's history and brought those traditions from their own countries when they, um, [00:45:00] came here.

Um, so doulas have always existed by whatever name, and humans have always had a need to birth with support and to birth and community. But I would say especially in the last few decades, doulas have really stepped into this space and this gap around the dysfunction of our current healthcare system. So not just to accompany in birth, but really to defend and help protect against the harms that our system is causing.

So doulas have to be trained in so much more than just the physiology of birth and what someone who's giving birth needs. We also have to be trained in what is wrong with our healthcare system. What are the, um, monetary incentives in obstetrics in the United States? How are other healthcare workers in their roles both incentivized and maybe [00:46:00] limited in what they can do and offer?

Right? It's very complex. And then I would say since 2022 with the Dobbs decision and the fall of Roe v. Wade, the role of doulas has gotten even more pressurized and even more crucial because we're seeing in perinatal healthcare, we're seeing less care later. So what I mean by that is that people are afraid to go to their doctors or hospitals or clinics early in pregnancy because of laws criminalizing abortion and making miscarriage care very complicated and confusing.

Providers are scared to see people early in their pregnancies because they don't want to have to deal with a potential miscarriage or someone who might need an abortion. We're seeing physicians leave states like Louisiana who have abortion bans, right? So we've got widening, maternal healthcare deserts, a lot of [00:47:00] fear around early pregnancy care, meaning people are getting less care later.

And pregnant people are increasingly turning to who they can trust, who are less connected to the healthcare system itself. And, um, doulas in my community are reporting that more and more clients are coming to them very early in pregnancy before they've even gone to the OB or gone to the midwife, right?

And, and coming to us with questions about things like abortion and miscarriage because they don't know who else to go to, right? So this is an additional burden that's being placed on doulas who already were filling a lot of gaps in the healthcare system. 

Aniko: Yeah. Well, and it makes perfect sense. And as you're talking my, like.

Everything in me was just like, oh my gosh. Even more reasons to keep doulas independent and also just what a, an insane situation we have, I wanted to say, [00:48:00] found ourselves in, but as a country, we got ourselves into this situation because of how we voted and who we've elected and you know, the things that we haven't advocated for enough before.

But that's a lot, that's a lot to carry. And it also goes to that sort of art of medicine and art of healing work. How they talk about like the healing arts, that like people are coming to you not just for your knowledge and expertise, but also because you are knowing how to navigate them in these very, very vulnerable experiences in their lives.

And also, y'all kind of know how to navigate the system in some ways. Like, you know more about. Reproductive health for sure. Then the average person knows, and if you know, like the OB GYNs are leaving Louisiana in droves, which they are, where are people gonna turn? And I'd like, I mean, obviously I know what a maternal care desert is, but I don't know [00:49:00] that all of our listeners do.

What do you mean when you say a maternal health desert? 

Giwa: Yeah, so folks might be familiar with the term, like a food desert where there aren't grocery stores with high quality food in a community. So a maternal care desert is a similar concept that in or nearby a community, there aren't the full services for maternal or perinatal care.

Hospitals are closing in rural areas and in cities, but especially rural areas around the country. And recent legislation, such as The Big Bad Bill that makes. Insurance reimbursements less profitable for hospitals, also is driving the closure of many hospitals. And then a community might not even have an obstetrician, right?

So there are many parts of Louisiana where pregnant people have to travel over an hour [00:50:00] to a city to go to a doctor's appointment with their obstetrician. And if they have a high risk condition, you know, maybe they had a chronic condition before they got pregnant, or they developed something during their pregnancy, they might have to travel even farther to get to a big city that has a maternal fetal medicine specialist.

Right? And remember in pregnancy, you receive a lot of care. You have a lot of visits, right? This isn't a one-off thing. This is something that you need for nine months. And so knowing that we have this combination of a country where. Pregnancy is more dangerous than in other countries. We have less care in communities for people to access.

And then we also are practicing, essentially forced birth in a lot of communities, right? We've taken away the option of abortion accessibility. That's a really [00:51:00] dangerous combination, right? And particularly for more marginalized people and black and indigenous women specifically. And so tho those types of gaps, you know, I love and celebrate doulas and I think we are a crucial part of the system, but that's also too much.

And so that goes to that moral injury and secondary trauma that. Not just doulas, but honestly, providers in general right now are experiencing because we want our pregnant clients to be healthy and well. And there's so much outside of our control that's happening in the system right now that that is jeopardizing that.

And when, and I think too, you know, moral injury comes into play when you can't offer something that, you know, someone deserves and needs and is medically appropriate. Right. 

Aniko: Yeah. I mean, I, it's come up recently [00:52:00] many, many times also with different, as we have this big election year, like talking to different people, running for office and you know, from a medical standpoint, it is just as preposterous to say, oh, you can't, you know, you can't do, you can't perform an abortion as it is to say, oh, you can't do this heart surgery.

Like, let me ask your governor. That this heart surgery is okay, or like, you know, I won't love you getting chemo. It, it's killing cells. Oh, let's run it through our government as a, as you said, as a provider, when you cannot provide the care that your client or patient needs and deserves, it is soul crushing.

You know, there's just something in you that dies because nobody goes into healing arts medicine To just stand by as a government keeps you from taking care of your patients, it is deeply painful for everybody. You know, not, not [00:53:00] to center the provider because it's the patient who needs to be centered, but there is 

This like this, this deep ripple effect of pain and heartbreak that happens. Because you know, we know, and this is CDC, this isn't some random Kool or anything, but more than 80% of pregnancy related deaths are preventable. And in this country, our pregnancy related deaths stand out amongst other high income countries because in other high income countries, pregnancy related deaths are declining and ours are increasing.

I don't know if you have anything to say to that. 

Giwa: Yeah, it's horrendous. I think the preventability piece is huge, right? That is both our shame and our hope, right? Yeah. We are letting people die unjustly and we can fix this and that 80 and you know, I've seen 85, 90% sometimes, um, um, of our maternal deaths that are preventable.

That [00:54:00] means there are actionable system changes that we can put in place that are happening in other places. We don't even have to make, make this up. We don't have to come up with these ideas. Right. We know that in countries that have midwifery care, for example, as the standard of care for most birthing people and then use obstetrician surgeons for high risk pregnancies, they have much better outcomes than us, right?

Um, that would be my top recommendation always is, um, to move into a midwifery model of care. We know that culturally congruent care teams literally save lives, right? You're more likely to survive. Um, and there's studies in pediatric care where infants are more likely to survive procedures if someone in the room, someone on the care team, is from the same background as the family, right?

And I think that is [00:55:00] also an important piece of doula work. Your doula doesn't have to look like you, your doula doesn't have to, um, share the same background as you, but. Having a diverse workforce of doulas available often means that clients will look for someone they connect with, who, um, might share the same background or be from the same community, or have the same values, and they feel trusted, they feel heard and listened to in the care room.

And I think we are only beginning to really understand the impact of that. But it, you know, I see that it means that concerns are gonna be addressed, right? That, that, that worry, that knowing that client has, that something is wrong, someone is gonna do something about it because that person is believed, their stress level, their cortisol, which is not helpful for birth, is gonna be lower, right there, there all these tangible and intangible impacts [00:56:00] of, of culturally congruent care and of feeling, feeling safe, feeling understood during your care.

Aniko: Yeah. And I feel like people always say representation matters because it does. And in the medical world, representation saves lives, literally. Literally. And I love that you just naturally moved into the hopeful place. Right? Because my next question was going to be, so what are the solutions? And you just naturally went into it.

And I also wanted to ask you, 'cause I'm sure that it's documented in studies how doula work supports better outcomes for mothers and birthing parents and children too. 

Giwa: Yeah. So yes, I, as I said, a midwifery model of care is one of my top recommendations. Increasing the doula workforce so that, you know, in my ideal world, every birth is accompanied 

Aniko: by a doula.

Giwa: Everyone on their block in their neighborhood knows that person that. [00:57:00] Has attended births if they know they can go to when they have questions, when they're pregnant and they're not sure what they should do or if they want to be right. Really bringing care into communities. And then part of why I'm such a huge advocate for doulas is we have abundant evidence that shows that doulas reduce the use of unnecessary medical interventions, which in and of itself, I don't really care, right?

I don't care if you have an epidural or you don't. I support you regardless. But we know the more medical interventions that are piled onto a normal birth experience, the higher the risk for complications. Right? So someone who has a C-section is more likely to experience a postpartum hemorrhage, right?

So we support the use of a C-section when it is medically necessary, but we are concerned about the overuse of these interventions. To where we have more people in our society at risk for morbidity and [00:58:00] mortality. And so doulas bring down that risk level. The more births we attend, the fewer people who are gonna be at risk for these complications.

Doulas also play a really integral role in mental health in during the perinatal period. So there are studies that show that people who work with a doula are more likely to access postpartum mental health support and resources. And that's really important because despite being the most common pregnancy associated complication, perinatal mental health disorders are wildly under assessed underdiagnosed and undertreated.

Right. Do we know this is super, super common, but. Many, many people are never getting the help that they need with their mental health condition. And so doula, if you have a doula, you're more likely to [00:59:00] be assessed. So this is especially true for historically marginalized groups, especially black, Latinx, and indigenous people, and people of color.

When they have a doula, they're more likely to be assessed for a mental health condition. And a lot of us doulas vary with us basic, you know, simple, um, assessments to do a basic screening for things like postpartum depression and anxiety. And then you're more likely to actually go in and be seen by a provider.

And I think that is because doulas are part of a network. Um, we all have our referral networks and we will help a client advocate to be seen, to know what to say on the phone so that they can get in. That has a huge impact, especially when we know that a third of perinatal deaths happen in that postpartum here.

And many are associated with perina perinatal mental health conditions or substance use [01:00:00] disorder. So that is something that is a solution, is we should guarantee that every birthing person gets a home visit from someone like a doula, right? So it should be a doula or if you have, um, a higher level of health concerns, a nurse home visitor so that you're not just weathering this period alone.

Aniko: Yeah. Yeah. And I know Louisiana started a program, was it last year, to do home visits for new birthing parents, new moms. So I do feel like there are some steps in a good direction. And so hopefully everyone who's listening is like, oh my gosh. Yes. Doulas forever. So how would you recommend people find a doula?

Giwa: So there are many different training and certifying bodies for doula work. There's, for example, donut, pro doula. There's a black doula [01:01:00] directory. Um, if you're specifically looking for a black doula, and many states, including Louisiana, have a doula registry or are forming one, and that's another way that you can look up a doula, I would say more important than the specific registry is meeting and talking to your doula and keeping in mind that you are going to share one of the most intimate moments of your life with this person.

And of course, we want someone who is trained and and professional, but beyond that, you want to work with someone that you feel safe with, that you feel a connection to who it feels. Relatively easy to communicate with and be honest with, right? And so simple things like asking them a few questions and seeing how they respond to you.

Do they [01:02:00] take your question seriously? Do they really hear what you asked and respond to it? And are they willing to admit when they don't know something? Right? Um, doulas are not clinical practitioners, right? We're not the physician, we're not the midwife. We are lay professionals who are accompanying you and advocating for you.

So it's okay if we don't know the answer to every single question, but a good doula will be able to say, you know, that's a great question. I know where we can find this information. I will, I will get it for you. Or, let's, let's look at this together. Or, I have this colleague, a good doula knows how to use resources, references.

To get you the information that you need. Right. So those are a couple things I would say. I 

Aniko: think that's all such great insight too, especially that part about who are you gonna be able to be honest with, you know, like that. And that's such a personality fit too. That's sort [01:03:00] of not, it's not anybody's fault that maybe they feel intimidating or you feel like they're gonna judge you or fully nobody is, but our own lens that we see through things through, we just need to acknowledge it and like, just say like, this is a factor for me.

So I'm gonna try to find somebody that I'm super comfortable with. Um, and I'm sure that y'all get all kinds of questions. I was just thinking about, you know, I'm sure people, I mean, you, you're a lactation consultant, so you may actually know some of the answers to these questions, but I'm just thinking about like medic medication interactions and that kind of thing.

Things are, they're so out of the scope of doula work and your doula doesn't have to know all that information, but they need to be able to tell you, I don't know. And here is someone you can talk to or even, you know, a, a website or something where you can look some of this stuff up. And so tell us about the work that you're doing now.

Giwa: Yeah, so I co-founded and led Birthmark doula Collective in Louisiana for 12 years, and [01:04:00] the New Orleans Breastfeeding Center that I founded and merged with that. And in 2023, after serving on the mortality review for a while, I made the decision to transition into another area of work, particularly because of this moment that we're in.

Right? And so, um, with the fall of Roe v Wade, I felt particularly compelled in my, my personal mission around ending black maternal mortality to focus on how. Abortion restrictions and maternal mortality interact and how providers and institutions have a really pivotal role in addressing this. Right. So I became the executive director of a national nonprofit that was called Midwest Access Project, that's now called Repro, TLC, [01:05:00] with a mission to fill gaps in the training and education of reproductive health providers nationwide.

And so the organization was formed 20 years ago around a specific gap, which is, folks may not know this, but very few providers actually get trained in abortion care during medical school or residency, uh, or nursing school or, or clinical training because of the stigma and bias in this country against abortion care and not seeing it as part of basic healthcare.

That has huge implications, not just for abortion, but for pregnancy care in general. And we're seeing that now when you ban abortion, more people die from pregnancy related complications during pregnancy, during miscarriages go untreated hemorrhages go untreated in the hospital. And so I knew from [01:06:00] my experience on the Pam R that, um, the fall of Roe v.

Wade would mean that more black women are going to die, unfortunately during pregnancy and postpartum. And I wanted to have an impact on that. So it's really exciting work. It means that we get to work with providers of all types, doulas, midwives, nurses, physicians, physicians, associates, nurse practitioners.

They come to us and say, I never got training in. IUDs and my community is asking for this now, especially because abortion is banned, or I never got trained in second trimester abortion care, and people are traveling to my state for this care now, and I wanna be able to provide it. Midwives who are saying, you know, abortion was never part of my, my training, but I, I wanted my clients to be able to come to me for every aspect of their reproductive care, [01:07:00] et cetera.

So we got to pair those learners with one of our 29 clinical sites around the country, um, and get them that opportunity to do that training. And I especially love that our training is rooted in reproductive justice, anti-racism, and trauma-informed care. Um, so I get to bring all my doula knowledge into this space and say, we're not just gonna train people in a clinical skill.

We're gonna make sure that they really understand. How to combat the systemic racism in reproductive healthcare. How to acknowledge both their own and their patient's trauma and, and provide care that can hold that. So yeah, it's really beautiful work. 

Aniko: That is really beautiful work. And I also want to make super clear, because I feel like this is some, obviously you know this and anyone in the medical world knows this and in the reproductive health world, but [01:08:00] abortion is just the term that's used when basically like a spontaneous, abortion is another word for a miscarriage.

So people really have this very specific association with what abortion is. But if somebody, let's say miscarries, but the fetus is not expelled, what you need is an abortion. That's, that's fetus has demise. There's been fetal demise. That's an abortion that you need. And if you don't get it, you will go septic and die at some point.

So it truly is a medical intervention. It truly is lifesaving. And I, I just, so the work you're doing is so amazing and it's so unsurprising that you're doing, and I just feel like you're such a, you're such a wonderful person to be leading this organization. And then if people listening are like, Ooh, I wanna get trained, like how do people find out about the trainings?

How do they get connected with you? 

Giwa: Yeah, so you can visit our website, repro tlc.org or follow us [01:09:00] on Instagram at repro tlc, and that's TLC, like Tender Loving Care, but it's also an open acronym for Training Liberation Care, and many other aspects of what we do. And yeah, there you'll find information about applying for a clinical training or attending one of our online workshops that are open to anyone and everyone, including patients themselves.

So 

Aniko: what kind of trainings do you do for patient 

Giwa: we've focused on the areas of reproductive healthcare that are most marginalized from training and education. So basically what's being missed, right? So the, that can be abortion and miscarriage, contraception, non-judgmental options, counseling, gender affirming care.

Also topics like late later abortion that nobody talks about or things like reproductive healthcare for [01:10:00] youth. There's a lot of attacks on reproductive healthcare for young people right now. Or we did a, a Know your rights session related to immigration enforcement activity. Then how reproductive healthcare providers and patients could advocate and protect immigrants who are trying to access reproductive healthcare.

And you know, we're definitely going to see the impact on immigrant birth outcomes of this moment because so many people have been afraid to just get basic prenatal healthcare 

Aniko: or they get detained while pregnant. 

Giwa: Yeah. 

Aniko: This is such amazing work and I also love that it's simultaneously addressing sort of the first aid triage.

We don't have anybody doing this and, and like, let's address that. But it's also creating a long-term solution where then those people are also part of the healthcare world and they can start [01:11:00] to provide in more and more numbers the healthcare that's necessary. And it's also educating people about what healthcare is.

And that if we don't have reproductive freedom and choice, we are not, if everybody doesn't have reproductive freedom and choice, then we don't have freedom. 

Giwa: 100%. Yeah. I love that, that you see that too. That we're building the future that we want to live in now and yeah, none of us will be free until we all are.

Aniko: It's so good to see you. This was even more fun and more profound that I even imagined. I knew it'd be good, but uh, it was really, really special to spend this time with you. Thank you so much for joining me today. 

Giwa: Thank you. I love this and I am totally down to come back and talk about breastfeeding.

Anytime. 

Aniko: Yes. We'll do breastfeeding. We'll do one on the specific, you know, sort of concerns and gaps for immigrant communities too, and how [01:12:00] to, how to work towards solutions there. There's so much, I mean, there's just so much going on, but that also means that there's so much hope and so many spaces in which we can build a better world for all.

Giwa: Yeah, definitely. 

Aniko: Well, thank you for being here, and thank you to our listeners for being here. Take care, y'all, and I'll see you next [01:13:00] time.