60. Herbal Medicine for Kids, ADHD, and Cold & Flu Support with Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu (Part 2)

What if some of the safest and most effective tools for supporting your family's health have been hiding in plain sight for centuries?

In Part 2 of this special three-part conversation, Dr. Anikó continues her discussion with renowned herbalist and founder of the American Herbal Pharmacopoeia, Roy Upton, exploring how herbal medicine can complement modern healthcare through evidence-based botanical therapies, lifestyle medicine, and individualized care.

Together, they discuss common misconceptions about herbal medicine, supplement regulation, and evidence-based botanical research before diving into practical herbal approaches for children, ADHD, emotional regulation, immune health, cold and flu season, and supporting the body's natural healing processes.

Roy shares decades of clinical experience explaining why herbs should never be viewed as "magic bullets," but rather as part of a comprehensive approach that includes nutrition, movement, digestion, sleep, and treating the whole person not simply the diagnosis.

Whether you're curious about herbal medicine for children, interested in natural immune support, or looking to better understand integrative medicine, this episode offers practical insights while emphasizing the importance of informed decision-making and working alongside qualified healthcare professionals.

Timestamps

2:00 The evidence behind herbal medicine, supplement quality, and the work of the American Herbal Pharmacopoeia

14:00 Herbal support for children: Chamomile, hawthorn, individualized care, and supporting focus naturally

26:00 Looking beyond herbs: Nutrition, movement, digestion, and lifestyle strategies for hyperactivity and ADHD

34:00 Preparing for cold and flu season with elderberry, astragalus, cod liver oil, and immune-supportive botanicals

39:00 Natural approaches for coughs, congestion, fever support, and knowing when to seek medical care

About Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu

Roy Upton has been working professionally as an herbalist since 1981, with training in Ayurvedic, Chinese, and Western herbal medicine. He is the founder and executive director of the American Herbal Pharmacopoeia, a nonprofit dedicated to advancing the responsible use of herbal medicine through rigorous critical review of both historical and modern scientific literature.

Roy maintains formal affiliations with the Bensao Gangmu Institute, Sonoran University, the Rick Schultes Center for Botanical Excellence, the Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry at University of California, Santa Cruz, and the Institute for Traditional Persian Medicine. He is also the founder of the Global Alliance for Integrative Health and Medicine, working to unite individuals and organizations worldwide to advance integrative healthcare.

Website: American Herbal Pharmacopoeia

Coming Next Week

In Part 3, Dr. Anikó and Roy Upton continue their conversation by exploring additional herbal approaches for everyday health, how to choose high-quality botanical products, and what the future of truly integrative healthcare could look like.

Connect with Dr. Anikó:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.aniko/

Website: https://www.draniko.com/

Thank you for listening to Nourished with Dr. Anikó! 

It would mean the world if you would take one minute to follow, leave a 5 star review and share with those you love! 

Your presence is truly felt and deeply appreciated.

Disclaimer:
The content of this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and does not constitute medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. The views expressed are those of the host and guests and do not substitute for professional medical advice. Always seek the guidance of your physician or other qualified healthcare provider with any questions you may have regarding your health or a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay seeking it because of something you heard on this podcast.

Transcript

Dr. Anikó: [00:00:00] You're listening to Nourish with Dr. Anikó Gréger. This podcast is all about the many, many ways you can support your health and your family's health. I'm an integrative physician, and I am so passionate about helping people find their pathway to their very best life. I hope you enjoy.

A reminder that this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only, and does not constitute medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the guidance of your physician or other qualified healthcare provider with any questions you may have regarding your health or medical condition.

Never disregard professional medical advice or delay seeking it because of [00:01:00] something 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: you heard on this podcast. Take very good care, y'all. 

Dr. Anikó: Hello, hello, y'all, and welcome back to Nourished with Dr. Aniko. Today, we continue our conversation with herbalist Roy Upton. If you have not listened to part one, please go back to last week's episode and give it a listen.

There is so much amazing information and wisdom there. And with no further ado, we continue our conversation. I hope you enjoy. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: Up until, I think it was the, uh, mid-2000s, there was a formal position of, of the American Medical Association that said that me- members of AMA, if they have oncology patients that take supplements, they should be strongly discouraged from doing so, and if they continue to do so, then you should discharge them from your care That policy existed up until, like, the mid 2000s.

The mid 2000s, they shifted [00:02:00] and said, "No big deal. Let them use what they want to use." They basically said, you know, most likely the supplements aren't gonna, you know, hurt that badly, so let's not be anti-supplement. And, uh, they changed that policy. But the idea that you would discharge a patient by doing what they feel is in the best interest of, of their own health is, like, the opposite of what medical theory should be and healthcare should be about.

We should have the ability to make choices even if we... even if it's a bad choice. Mm-hmm. That's our choice. You know? Yeah. But we should do it in a fully informed way. 

Dr. Anikó: Yes. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: And this is what I realized, uh, Aniko, in 1995, when we were, we were working on getting the dietary supplement legislation passed. That's how I know about the, the intricacies of how they're regulated.

Um, was I recognized that there wasn't one repository for all this information on, like, on both sides of the aisle. Congress people and, and scientists who [00:03:00] either supported or opposed supplement use, they're all saying, asking the same questions. "Well, how do you know dosage? How do you know when it should be picked?"

You know, like, 'cause these things are natural. They're variable in nature, you know, environment to environment, or one year to one year. Uh, how do you know what the quality should be? Side effects, contraindication, use in pregnancy. And I'm realizing, yeah, that information doesn't exist in one place. So we found in the American Herbal Pharmacopoeia, we looked at virtually every piece of compiled herbal medicine information that was available at the time, and we came up with our template to fill gaps of what was missing, and to put it all in one place.

And, um, like, sometimes it takes us three, four, five years to do a single one of these dossiers. Um, so it takes a long time, and a lot of resources just to do one. But at the end of the day, the AHP monographs are the most comprehensive and critically reviewed [00:04:00] monographs on herbal medicine anywhere in the English language.

Uh, they also provide guidance for how manufacturers should be adhering to quality control, when it should be picked, how it should be dried, where it should be grown, how it could, should be grown, how it should be processed. Uh, what are the adulterations that may happen? Like with chamomile. There's German chamomile that you are f- associated with in, in Hungary, and then there's Hu- there's Roman chamomile, which is a different type of chamomile, different species.

So they have a little bit different. So what are the substitutions and adulterations that can occur? Our role is our job continues to be answer the questions that need to be answered so you could make an informed choice of whether or not you feel comfortable, either as a practitioner prescribing this, or a practitioner whose patient is using it, or a patient who wants to think about whether I should use astragalus in conjunction [00:05:00] with my conventional oncology care.

Dr. Anikó: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and- 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: That's our main job. 

Dr. Anikó: And again, again, Roy Upton is the founder and, you know, chief editor of the Pharmacopeia, so, and I have had the delight and pleasure of you sharing some of these monographs with me, and they are so comprehensive. But, but not overly medical jargony. Like, you can really understand it, and you...

But there's so many citations. Like, it is chock-full of evidence. So for anybody who is saying, you know, "There's no evidence for this," please just read one monograph and be delighted in the fact that there is so much evidence. And speaking of delight, I just wanna note your delightful use of the word baldywack, which I haven't heard in multiple years.

Mm-hmm. And I just love that you keep saying it, so I just- Sure ... wanted to note that. So okay, so this... Oh, and I did also wanna say that for people that are interested, 'cause, you know, there's also these criticisms of, you know, supplements, that, you know, [00:06:00] you don't even know how much it contains, and there is some truth to that.

So there are- Yeah ... but there are organizations and, um, like, consumer labs that you can sign up for, and they actually test the different products, and they say, "This one said it had this much, but it actually had this much." I recently was reading their article on probiotics, um, which do kind of vary a lot, and melatonin is also one, especially in the lower doses, that var- varies a lot.

So there actually are... Maybe that's not the FDA, but there are organizations, there are places to get this information, and I feel like the concept usually for most people is like, "Oh, it's the Wild West. You can't trust anybody." And there's organizations that do test for all of this. Yeah. And FDA does oversee it.

So it is this weird, again, that feeling of like, "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills." Like, this, this is not the case, and yet it is this, like, widely shared delusion, um, that- 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: But there's al- the, the delusion also exists on the other side. 

Dr. Anikó: Mm. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: They believe that [00:07:00] because their, the drug, conventional drugs have to be pre-approved by FDA, that everything's good, and, and you as a practitioner or you as a patient don't have to worry about it 'cause the government is already taking care of it, and that's not true at all.

Dr. Anikó: Right. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: I don't know if, uh, uh, like, there was a, an Alzheimer's drug called Aduhelm that was approved by FDA. The lead investigator at FDA said this should not be approved. It's not effective, it's not safe, and it's too costly, and it's not better than any, any other Alzheimer's drug that we have. Second internal advisor says the sa- makes the same determination.

The department head makes the same determination, we're disapproving this. But we have a thing, um, in a, in the, uh, US called, uh, user fees, where, okay, the drug company didn't like the finding, so they can fund $1.2 million or something. They can [00:08:00] fund an independent review of the same data to see if there's a different conclusion than was reached by FDA.

Long story short, they convene an 11-member panel, 10 of them who say not effective, not safe, too costly, no better than any other drug. One member that said it may have benefit So what was the conclusion of that? They approved of Aduhelm. Aniko,

Aduhelm, in the clinical str- trials that were presented, 31% of the subjects taking it experienced brain swelling, 19% experienced bl- brain bleeding. How do you appro- and, and there was no clinically relevant endpoint that would suggest any improvement in Alzheimer's. It was only a change in, like, A [00:09:00] lipoprotein or plaque development, which has never been correlated as clinically relevant for Alzheimer's.

It's associative, not causative, and not clinically relevant. No benefit whatsoever, $60,000 a year, and they approved it. They sense, because that it, it made the headlines of how bad this process was, that they took away the approval within the first year or something. But then JAMA publishes an article where they-- Journal of American Medical Association publishes an article where they review all of the anti-cancer drugs that were approved in this user fee process, and found that the pro- that the drugs that went through the user fee approval process got approved at a much higher rate than those that went [00:10:00] through the regular process.

And then they said 51% of them had no clinically relevant benefit for any marker associated with cancer survival. 51% of approved oncology drugs that went through, through this user fee process, ineffective. So the idea that there's science supporting everything that's done in modern medicine, or you look at some drug companies have been fined 65 times in the last 15 years From either falsifying data, not meeting quality control requirements, misrepresenting the level of safety or efficacy of their product, which led to the opioid crisis, for example.

That's, that's an example that almost everybody in [00:11:00] medicine knows, that that was a collusion between Purdue Pharma and FDA, that both were complicit in changing the language by which opioids could be prescribed, which eventually led to the opioid crisis, and it was the biggest, um, fine in US history against a drug company for purposely creating this opioid addiction crisis.

Mm-hmm. So the idea that Western medicine that we all have our faith in and we're paid for through insurance premiums and is being reimbursed by all these systems are not all they're cracked up to be. And again, it's not to throw everything out as invalid- 

Dr. Anikó: Right, of 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: course not ... but it's to be transparent about what is the level of evidence, not just of our natural medicines, but what's the level of evidence of our conventional medicines?

And, um, that's not given enough You know, kind of [00:12:00] focus in our system 

Dr. Anikó: Well, right, and it's just like, you know, it's like when it's become 100% commercialized, like this is what happens, right? We keep, keep talking about people putting profit over patients, profit over people. This, this is the end of that story, you know?

And I hope it really is the end of that- It's a big part of it ... yes, it's a big part of it. It's not the only part of it. And I hope, I hope we are coming to the end of it being, like, just a business, because it's not serving us, you know? And anyway, that's, that's another bigger conversation. But, um, I do think that maybe it's time for...

I, I imagine a lot of people are waiting for this piece, to actually start to talk about the botanicals themselves. Yeah. You know, commonly used botanicals, and I know you have a special interest in women's health and pediatric health. Um, and I'm sure a lot of our listeners do as well. Um, and I wanna make the disclaimer, it's in my [00:13:00] bio, it's in my show notes, I have a disclaimer before most of my podcasts, that this is not medical advice that you are hearing from us.

This is information that you can take and talk to your healthcare practitioner. It's something that you can use for yourself, but it is not medical advice that you are receiving. You are responsible for your health, um, and we're just sharing some information about botanicals with you today. Um, and also that it's more complex than just the botanicals, right?

Because in Ayurveda and Chinese medicine, you really consider the constitution of the person as well. You know, you- 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: Lifestyle, environment, foods, everything ... 

Dr. Anikó: right. So it, it is much more complex than just, like, take this botanical, but we will be talking about botanicals today. But you've given the example of, you know, there's different types of asthma in, um, you know, Chinese medicine and Ayurveda, and we don't always distinguish m- in conventional medicine between these different types of kids or different types of adults with these conditions.

But anyway, um, I don't know where you wanna start. You could really start [00:14:00] anywhere. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: Yeah, I mean, the, I think the first place to start Is, uh, is just to knowing that there are safe and effective choices first. Uh, you mentioned the chamomile on the cloth. So my daughter has a eight-month-old, uh, baby boy, Augustus, and he's teething, right?

And so she takes a face cloth, and she dips it in chamomile tea, r- uh, German chamomile tea, and she just has him, she just... You know, they want to put everything in their mouth, and she's knows within 15, 10, 15 minutes, he's chill, you know? And is not going to sleep. He's not, it's not like a knockout drug.

It's just a calmative. So that's, like, one of the simplest, easiest remedies that you could actually use for a kid that's, you know, just agitated or teething or whatever. She'll just, she just has it on hand ready, you know, just if he's getting fussy, okay, time to give the chamomile rag kinda thing, you [00:15:00] know?

Um, and that's ease of, ease of compliance 'cause they, it tastes all right, and they wanna put everything in their mouth. Um, uh, so I'm gonna give you a little story about Nathan, my nephew. My sister... He's always been a hyper kid when he was little. My sister calls me, says, "Roy, I've had it up to here with this kid."

I said, "What'd he do?" He got on the roof, started tearing the shingles off the roof and throwing them across the driveway, and then he went to work on the neighbor's house. So he did $1,000 of damage on Nancy's house, my sister, and started to go to work on the neighbor's house. And I said, "Nancy, I've been telling you for years, help the kid out.

What do I do?" So I said, "Go down to the health food store." I knew the store. I kinda knew their inventory. "Get him hawthorn berry syrup." And hawthorn is for the heart. Hawthorn is a herb f- g- generally for the heart. "And then I'll make you up a formula in the meantime and send it up to you." She was, like, about four hours away, so I had to mail it.

But anyways, [00:16:00] long story short, she gave him the first dosage Tuesday night. Second dosage Wednesday morning. He goes to school. He comes home, and he sits down... No, I, he goes to bed that day, that night, without being told to go to bed. Not catastrophic, but not, I mean, you know, whatever. 

Dr. Anikó: Not life-changing, not like 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: earth-shattering.

Not a life, right, but not Nathan. Right. Not typical of Nathan. Next day, comes home from school, sits down and does a 350-piece puzzle quietly by himself, then goes to bed without sleeping. I mean, without being told. This is, like, not Nathan. Friday freaks Nancy out. He starts walking out the door to go to school.

He stops, turns around, walks over to her, gives her a big hug- And say, he says, "See you later, Nancy. Have a good day." Nancy said she stood there like she had an [00:17:00] alien, like, "This is not my kid." The school calls Nancy halfway through the school day and say, "What's going on with Nathan?" "What do you mean? What did he do this time?"

"He didn't do anything. He hasn't disrupted the class. He hasn't been fidgety. He sat down, focused on his work. His first time he's ever made student of the week. What's going on with Nathan?" So you said, you know, that sometimes these things are used differently, you know, not taking into consideration of constitution or whatever.

That's one way herbs are used, as magic bullets. Hawthorn quiets the heart. It causes the heart to slow down, makes for a stronger, more efficient heartbeat, kinda like beta blockers used to do. I don't know if they're still using beta blockers these days, but kinda like beta blockers. By calming the heart, you calm the mind.

In Chinese medicine, they say you calm the shen, or you calm the [00:18:00] spirit. So whenever you have a troubled spirit or a troubled mind, an overactive, ADD, ADHD-type mind, where you either can't focus or you have hyperfocus and hyperactivity, you c- calm, nourish, and quiet the heart. And hawthorn is one of the most beautiful remedies or treatments for that, whether you're just trying to help a kid to sleep or whether they actually have ADD or ADHD, uh, 'cause it's even for kids that can't focus, 'cause it's all about calming and focusing the mind.

And I can't tell you, uh, how many-- It's in the hundreds, you know, how many children I've gotten off of hyperactivity medications just by integrating, like, a, a hawthorn syrup. Uh, but I always do it in conjunction with lifestyle. You can't be eating licorice candy, because licorice is really stimulating for the heart You gotta look at, sometimes you have to [00:19:00] look at heavy metal exposure.

Other times you have to look at food triggers that are stimulating the hyperactivity. In the early pediatra- pediatrics literature, they talked a lot about, you know, food colors and dyes as contributing to ADHD at least, um, which I think is partly a reality. Uh, then the hormones that are in, in food.

There's a lot of hormones that are in food that just tweak us emotionally and endocrinologically, um, that just is not natural. Um, so those are a few that, you know, simple ones. So the herbs can either be used as magic bullets in the same way we use, you know, conventional drugs, or they can be used according to the constitutional or pathological nature of the child.

Meaning, like you said, five different children with, or fi- five different people with asthma will be treated in five different ways, whereas in Western care, they're pretty much all treated all the same. [00:20:00] Or women with, you know, breast cancer or estrogen s- positive breast cancers, they're all, all gonna get standard of care.

But they not, might not... Th- they're five different people, or 100 different people. And so even though the, the, the, that little piece, that one little piece, estrogen positive whatever, is the same, the rest of their 99.9% of them is different. 

Dr. Anikó: Yeah. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: And so we have to treat them individually according to their own nature.

While this is the branch and root thing, that estrogen positive breast tumor is the branch, but their bodies are the root. Mm. And so you could be going after the branch with your chemo and your radiation and your standard of care hammers, while at the same time supporting the physiological nature of that person.

Dr. Anikó: Mm-hmm. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: Uh, and that's where we could benefit most from, um, from I [00:21:00] think integrative care, uh, with regards to oncology. So- 

Dr. Anikó: Yeah. Well, and it reminds me too of, you know Victoria Maizes. Uh, she was on the podcast a couple episodes back, and she was talking about prehab before surgery. And, you know, you've talked about sort of nourishing, you know, qi and nourishing the constitution before starting these big hammers of chemo, or even surgery or things like that, where, you know- We don't talk about that very much in conventional medicine.

They might talk about eating well or getting enough protein, but, you know, in the meantime, you know, talk about colors and sugars and flavors. Like, people are out there drinking Boost, you know, and getting Jell-O on their tray, and bagels, and that kind of thing. Um, but obviously, the support that you can get from botanical medicine and traditional medicinal approaches is, is really complex and can be really amazing.

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: Yeah. I think one of the other things that [00:22:00] I wanted to mention before, uh, Aniko, was regarding the, like, the monographs. Medical authorities worldwide have already reviewed the majority of the herbal medicine literature. In China, in India, throughout the entire European Union, throughout s- uh, Thailand, parts of South America, not all, and, and, uh, the Canadian Health Director in Canada We're the only ones that haven't.

We don't... They have evidence-based reviews for probably between all of those that I just mentioned, plus the World Health Organization, for several hundred botanicals. Like you said, there is a mountain of evidence, and not only is there a mountain of evidence, but it's already been critically reviewed by medical authorities worldwide, by the regulatory and medical authorities of those countries, and approved [00:23:00] for specific uses.

WHO monographs are available online. Uh, ESCOP monographs are not. Uh, natural health product, uh, guidance is free online from Canada. Unfortunately, you have to know how to mine this information, but the idea that the information about how to use herbs safe and effectively is not there is another complete myth.

Right. It's, it's a myth. 

Dr. Anikó: Right. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: And just because you don't know why something works, the, or how something works, doesn't mean it doesn't work. 

Dr. Anikó: Right. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: And for example, it was 76 years before, between the discovery of aspirin and the articulation of w- how it was working, like for reducing inflammation or whatever it be, 76 years.

But during that 76 years, and the thousand years [00:24:00] that came before it since willow bark was first used as an anti-inflammatory, clinicians knew how to use it safely and effectively, even though they didn't know why it was working. 

Dr. Anikó: Mm-hmm. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: So the idea that we have to know all of this stuff before being not afraid to try it- 

Dr. Anikó: Mm-hmm

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: when your only other option is usually a highly toxic drug or going under the knife, which is irreversible. You can't- 

Dr. Anikó: Mm-hmm ... 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: can't give you a uterus back. Right. In a Frankenstein world you could, but in, y- right now it's not pra- right, not, not practical. I, I say that somewhat facetiously because Wake Forest did some cutting edge research, uh, where they actually took out uteruses of mice, um, so they couldn't conceive, and then put them back in and so that they could conceive.

And then they actually- Whoa ... uh, the uteris of mice and they, [00:25:00] um, they, um, genetically made a uterus in a Petri dish, implanted that into the mice, and the mice were able to conceive with a human-made uterus. So it was half facetious, but, but, but half real, right? This is the type of work that, that goes on in some places.

Dr. Anikó: That's really terrifying to me to hear, actually. Like, on- Yeah, yeah ... some level it's, it's scientifically fascinating. Right. But the implications of this in society and- 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: Yep ... 

Dr. Anikó: the idea of ur- uterus donation or forcible uterus donation is, is pretty terrifying. Um, but very... Wow. Yeah. No, I had not heard about that.

But yeah, so not- What other herbs you want- ... not facetious at all. Well, you know, since we were talking about ADHD, um, you know, what other pot- I know ginkgo can be used and, like, what other, what other medications can sometimes be used? And not as- And you- ... we don't ne- necessarily need to narrow it [00:26:00] all the way down to ADHD, right?

It can just be, like, outbursts or hyperactivity. It's not all ADHD. Oh, no. It can almost be variations of normal that are just becoming problematic for that person in their life, you know? 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: Exactly, and that's, that's a whole nother story of how disease syndromes are actually someh- sometimes defined and given medical codes just so you can treat it, right?

Right. But it's a long game. You have to 

Dr. Anikó: make it a disease. You have to make it a disease. You have to make it a disease to fit it into the disease model. Yeah. Yeah. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: But the whole idea, um, uh, for something like hyperactivity, outbursts, stuff like that, um, from a dietary perspective, ob- obviously maintaining normal or, or consistent blood sugar levels so you're not just driving the kid up and down with, you know, constant sugars.

Simple sugars, obviously you want to avoid because you want to avoid those spikes. You know, that gets you into that hyper mode, and then you have a crash and burn as insulin comes in, brings it down, and then you get [00:27:00] into that lag time and f- you know, you fall asleep on your, on your desk or something. Um, then the physical part of it, exercise.

You gotta s- Mm-hmm ... you gotta spend... Eh, kids have so much more energy than we do, right? We did when we were kids, and we've gotten tired, but we're trying to fit them into our schedule and our, our pace. So I, I think I mentioned, um- on the Stanford Pediatrics presentation that in the natural healthcare world, I know naturopaths and herbalists that before bed they'll give exercises to their kids.

You know, they'll, they'll have them blow up 10 balloons and then try to keep them all up in the air as long as they can. Keep every- don't let anyone touch the ground. You know, just run around, spend their energy. When we were kids, um, you know, school had two recesses, one in the morning, one in the afternoon.

We were playing basketball, handball, tennis. We were running around the parking lot. We were, we were moving, expending the energy, [00:28:00] and it wasn't such a big thing, you know? Um, and now a lot of schools don't even have PE programs anymore. It's ridiculous. So we That, uh, that's from a lifestyle perspective and a philosophical perspective, we also have to, as adults, take a step back and say, "Am I just trying to fit this kid into my reality?

I've learned all the coping skills that I need that have gotten me to this point in my, my life." Um, they haven't. 

Dr. Anikó: Right. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: But we're expecting to sit down, shut up, don't, you know- ... you know, focus on stuff that, that you have no reason why in your mind you need to learn- 

Dr. Anikó: Mm-hmm ... 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: reading, writing, and arithmetic, because our education system doesn't instill the reasons why we need to l- learn- Mm-hmm

these things. We just say, "Do your timetables. Do this, do this, do this." 

Dr. Anikó: Mm-hmm. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: Um, so we have to reorient our expectations, [00:29:00] I think. So in the lifestyle one, that's reintor- orienting our philosophy, how we think about it, but the physical part of how to nourish a kid without getting the blood sugar spikes, and how to expend their energy with normal exercise.

And then on the herbal side, um, hawthorn is my number one, and a Chinese herb called ziziphus, which nobody in the- ... in the US knows except TCM practitioners, ziziphus, which is a beautiful, calming nervine. We usually combine it with herbs like lemon balm and chamomile, which are two of the primary herbs that are used for calming, calming restless children and helping them to sleep.

And then, uh, another one, which people are gonna kinda laugh at, is catnip. Catnip is a great calmative and nervine for children, especially teething, fevers, things like that. 

Dr. Anikó: Mm-hmm. [00:30:00] Mm-hmm. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: And oh, I'm sorry. And then a, a third aspect from a therapeutic ac- uh, perspective is the digestive system. Mm. That a lot of times kids have really bad indigestion, gas, bloating, um, that they don't know how to articulate that they have, and usually it's a reaction to foods, bad diet, bad food combining, things like that.

And so focusing on the digestive health, and these days we would say, um, the gut microbiome and that axis between the- Mm-hmm ... microbiome and mental and emotional wellbeing. 

Dr. Anikó: Mm-hmm. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: Um, di- focusing on calming people by calming the digestive system by using what are called carminatives, uh, such as fennel seed.

Like, a just, like, if you go to an Indian restaurant, you're walking out after dinner, they always have a bowl of fennel seeds that people just take a pinch and, because it's good for digestion. 

Dr. Anikó: Mm-hmm. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: It's on, fennel is on a little bit of [00:31:00] a watch list right now in the European Union, because it has tiny amounts of estradiol, which they theoretically, uh- consider may have an effect on a developing hormonal system, but it's completely theoretical and based on in vitro, uh, you know, test tube research.

Nothing clinically relevant about it, but nevertheless, it's getting a, for full disclosure, you know, it's a, it's on a watch list in the European Union whether or not they should be giving it to children. But I've been giving it to children for pretty much 40 years in my cognitive and ADD, ADHD formulas.

I've never seen any evidence of a tweak in a hormonal development that, that I could observe or that their primary practitioner could observe, so. 

Dr. Anikó: Mm-hmm. It 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: reminds- The researchers that I talk to in, in the European Union say, "Yeah, this is completely theoretical. We don't really believe it has any clinical relevance," but [00:32:00] nevertheless, the EU is looking at it.

Dr. Anikó: Right. It reminds me a little bit about the soy conversation, where for a while everyone- Yeah ... was really scared of the phytoestrogens in soy. And sure, in soy supplements, and especially synthetic sort of soy derivatives, that can be a concern, but there's been no evidence found thus far that you're gonna eat so much edamame or something that it's gonna impact you in some negative way.

Um- 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: And that's the ironic part, is that the, the highest, uh, the highest soy consumers in the world, Japan, Thailand, China, have the lowest rates of reproductive cancers. Yep. And it's kind of, to me it's, just to me it's, again, one of my pet subjects, it's a fascinating subject, is that the natural plant-based phytoestrogens dock with estrogen receptor sites, but they're not taken up into the cell.

Dr. Anikó: Mm-hmm. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: So in order for them to actually promote cancer growth, they have to be taken up into the cell, but they don't. They, they can't get by the receptor site. But- Mm-hmm ... by docking on the receptor site, it [00:33:00] sends a message that says, "Oh, I have estrogen." The hot flashes kind of diminish, the vaginal dryness kind of diminishes a little bit.

You get a little bit of more emotional stability, and it's actually cancer protective. Mm-hmm. But if you, if you take that same soy phytoestrogen, put it in a test tube with active cancer cells, it causes them to grow because there's no longer the receptor site that's acting as the gateway to prevent it from- influencing the cancer cell.

So that's where that problem came, that disjunct came. They took in vitro, you know, test tube research and then extrapolated it, but they f- they didn't look at the real world evidence that, that Japan has among the lowest rates of reproductive cancers and the highest rates of, uh, soy intake. So- 

Dr. Anikó: Yep ... 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: you have to look at the totality of the information and critically review it in order to make an informed choice.

Dr. Anikó: Yep, yep. [00:34:00] So, yeah, maybe we can move on to, like, cold and flu botanicals, 'cause as we were talking about, like, lemon balm and chamomile and all of those, um, 'cause there's ones that you can- that help with fever. There's ones that help with mucus. There's ones that help with soothing coughs, so- Yeah, so- And I feel like that's a big, big, big, fun sort of everyone's favorite topic.

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: Yeah, so the first thing is prevention. So I'll, again, I'll give you another anecdote, and this is not inherently botanically based, but nutritionally. So, um- My daughter Heidi, uh, for when she would g- go back to school September, you know, for example, every week coming home with something, as kids do, whether they're going to daycare centers or whether they're going to school.

So finally, you know, I just said, "We're gonna do something." So we just g- started giving her a supplement of cod liver oil, like a quarter of a teaspoon or an eighth of a t- She was, uh, at the time she was probably six, I [00:35:00] think six or seven, first or second grade. And, um, you know, give her a quarter teaspoon or an eighth of a teaspoon of cod liver oil.

Aniko, once we started doing that, she wasn't sick literally for six months, and she had been coming home every week with something. And we just kept that up for, you know, for a bunch of years, and she very rarely got sick. So that was something as simple as cod liver oil. My favorite botanical, uh, for helping to prevent contraction is, uh, elderberry syrup.

And Sambucus nigra, it's the European black elder, uh, which is in the European Union. We have, uh, two different elderberry species here. They're good, uh, but Sambucus nigra from Europe has the most research on it. And it was originally found by Israeli researches that it had anti-, uh, influenza effects, direct, uh, anti-influenza effects, um, and [00:36:00] showed a reduction in both, uh, transmission and severity, which we all learned during COVID.

It's all about transmission and then severity and survivability. Uh, so Sambucus had a positive effect on reducing transmission and severity. There's been numerous studies since then. We're actually about to publish a monograph on elderberry that if anybody wants it- Ooh ... you know, just contact us and I'm...

For individuals, I'm happy to, to, to share what information we have. We're also gonna be doing actually practitioner and consumer pieces, synopsises of the monographs. Those'll likely be made free of charge, so people should pay attention if they want to get that type of information. Oh, that's very cool.

But elderberry is my favorite. The, the key with elderberry The berries have to be cooked, otherwise they can cause stomach irritation. And usually you either mix it with a, a, a sugar, a coconut sugar, or a honey or something like that to preserve it. I tend to add 10 to 15% alcohol, both because it helps [00:37:00] to carry it into the system, but also helps to increase the shelf life.

If you wanna learn how to make an elderberry syrup, um, and I have no, uh, commercial affiliation with whatsoever, but a dear friend of ours, Dr. Tieraona Low Dog, she's an MD and an herbalist, um, and a wonderful, wonderful, um, uh, doc, has a video on Mount Rose Herbs website on how to make an elderberry syrup.

So that's from a fully trained medical doctor herbalist, uh, with a lo- with literally decades of experience. So that's how you would learn to make a, an elderberry syrup 

Dr. Anikó: from- Yeah, she was my botanical medicine teacher. She's amazing. Oh, 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: nice. 

Dr. Anikó: Yeah. She's- Yeah ... she's like, her knowledge is, like, otherworldly.

It's incredible. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: Yeah. And then the second pr- so first is prevention, right? That's the first thing, and this is how we always wanna think. First is prevention. Fortify the system. Even something like astragalus or when it comes, when wintertime's coming, [00:38:00] you start putting astragalus in your... If you're making hot cereal, for example, put a few sticks of astragalus in to soak in the water that you're using to make the cereal, and then you're getting that astragalus benefit.

Or you make it as a tea, and you give them a few sips of astragalus tea in the morning before they go to school, and a few sips after noon. It doesn't take a lot, uh, for young kids. Um, and it's an easy way. A- astragalus doesn't taste bad. I think you would just drinking it. It's a pretty m- bland to slightly s- little sweet taste.

Um, but you can add a little bit of ginger if you want, if, if... And this is how we have to think about it. As the weather's getting cold, we wanna take warming substances like ginger root- Mm-hmm ... into our system so that it helps to... That's our connection with nature pathologically. So it helps to warm us inside so we're less susceptible to the cold- That's outside of us, and that's a very real and clinically relevant, uh, precept for us to [00:39:00] follow.

Um, but the second step is when you first start seeing symptoms come on, you don't wait until they're full-blown. You start hitting it with a little bit of a heart of herbs, like, and our favorite would be for children, echinacea. And my preference is, is Echinacea angustifolia root. Um, but it's difficult to find that now, so it's Echinacea purpurea root.

I prefer over leaf products. I prefer liquid extracts for acute care over the capsules and tablets that I might give more longer term, um, because the alcohol carries it into the system really fast, or even glycerites, if they're properly made, are easy to digest, and they go into the system very quickly.

So you dose them with a combination of elderberry and echinacea, and a lot of the commercial products h- already have both in them. Uh, then there are a host of, if you, you mentioned mucus, if you're starting getting respiratory mucus, there's a host of [00:40:00] commercial products that, um, range in Chinese medicine to loquat syrups, uh, and in Germany, pelargonium, um, syrups that are used.

Uh, there's the main one on the American market Uh, it has that strange name Umgka? Hel- yeah. 

Dr. Anikó: Umgka. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: Yeah, 

Dr. Anikó: yeah. Yeah, 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: yeah, umgka. Um- Umbellularia or whatever- 

Dr. Anikó: It's umgka ... the name is Yeah, U-M-C-K-A syrup. But yeah, it's- Yeah ... uh, it's that geranium. Mm-hmm 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: Geranium syrup. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's really good, very effective, f- formally approved in Germany.

Germany is the, is the country with the, Western country with the biggest perspent- percentage of herbal medicine use, and among the most restrictive and, and, um, strict, uh, herbal medicine, um, market. So if they approve of something, you know that it's safe, effective for that specific use. So Pelargonium- Mm-hmm

or Umckaloabo or Umcka, um, [00:41:00] and then elderberry and Echinacea for the, for that part. So then when you start getting into, um, mild fevers, so you want the fever to live around, you know, 100, 101. Once it starts creeping up 102, 103, now you wanna start paying it a little bit more attention. From a natural medicine perspective, the key is not to get rid of the fever.

The key is to open up the pores of the skin so that the heat escapes, and your 102, 103, 104 fever comes down, and it usually hovers there around 101. Mm-hmm. And that's where you want it, because it's, that's burning out the infection, or helping to mobilize immune defenses to get rid of the pathogen. So you never wanna try to reduce, uh, for, stop a fever, like with heavy-duty Tylenol and aspirin, unless it's way up there.

And then you have to, obviously you have to have your common sense of when you want to seek medical care. But if it's sustained, if that fever's staying up and it's not [00:42:00] responding, uh, to the first herbs that you gave, and the first herbs that you would give, for exam- here's a, another one, a cute story.

Again, chamomile. A friend of mine calls me at 1:00 in the morning, "Roy, you know, my daughter has this fever. It's almost 104 fever. And I'm, should I take her to the emergency room?" And I'm like, "Let me just c- I'll make you up a brew. I'll shoot up there." Put on my emergency lights, 1:00 in the morning, you're surprised you don't get stopped, and, um, had made her a chamomile tea in a Mason jar.

Enough for a couple of days for them to give. And, um, as soon as I got there, um, I sh- just she was totally, like, in that stage where you're kind of, you're not really responsive. You're not listening. You're just lethargic- Mm-hmm ... but fidgety. And, um, so I started just patting her with the chamomile-soaked cloth.[00:43:00] 

After about 10 minutes, she kinda came responsive, and then I gave her a couple of spoonfuls in her mouth. Five minutes later, she sits up. She must have been, she must have been three years old. And she goes, "I feel 100% better already." Oh, 

Dr. Anikó: my. I go, "Oh, my 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: God." And her fever had, uh, uh, after about 20 minutes, um, she started perspiring, which meant her pores were opened up.

And this is a class of herbs that we use. Chamomile has this benefit, catnip has it, lemon balm, peppermint, spearmint, elderflowers, yarrow, all of these. A lot of times people combine peppermint, elder, and yarrow as their primary diaphoretic tea. And diaphoresis means that you're causing the pores to relax and open, and it allows the heat to escape.

And so 103, 104 fever comes [00:44:00] down really easily within 20 minutes to 101. Mm-hmm. And it's, that's where you, you want it to hover, and you just... You know, you, in the old days, you know, we'd keep the, the head war- uh, cool with cold packs, 'cause we, we don't want a, the brain to get too hot. But if it's at 101, that's not a big deal, unless it's sustained.

And then if it's sustained, you have to o- obviously look at other first aid stuff. Is there any other infection going on? Is there a puncture wound that you didn't see, or something like that? And then y- you have to look at primary care, emergency care. Right. So you have to have common sense. Yeah. And that common sense is when things are not responding quickly, that's when you seek professional medical help.

Dr. Anikó: Right. 

Roy Upton, RH, DipAyu: You know, but at first, you don't necessarily have to have a knee-jerk reaction to say, "I'm gonna take her to the emergency room." Like, in the middle of winter in a temperate zone, the last thing you wanna do is take a sick kid out into the cold weather if you don't need to. [00:45:00] So there's a balance. 

Dr. Anikó: We are going to pause there for today, but join us again next week for part three, our last piece of our conversation with Roy Upton.

Take good care, and I'll see you then.

Thank you so much for listening to Nourish today. Your presence is truly felt and so deeply appreciated. I hope today's episode brought you some insight and also some inspiration to create an even better life and world for yourself and for your community. If you enjoyed this episode, please don't forget to follow the podcast and leave a review, and please share Nourish with a friend.

It helps more people discover the power of true nourishment. Until next time, take good care of yourself and your people, and stay [00:46:00] nourished