67. Create More, Play More, Find Your Joy with Maurice Carlos Ruffin

In this episode of Nourished with Dr. Anikó, Dr. Anikó sits down with award-winning author and 2026 Guggenheim Fellow Maurice Carlos Ruffin for an inspiring conversation about creativity, self-expression, and why making art is an essential part of being human.

Together, they explore how creativity supports mental health, reduces anxiety, builds self-esteem, and helps both children and adults process their emotions. Maurice shares how play, storytelling, and imagination shaped his childhood and how reconnecting with those parts of himself ultimately led him from a career in corporate law to a deeply fulfilling life as a writer.

They also discuss the inner critic, creative anxiety, and the pressure to produce something “good.” Maurice offers practical advice for moving beyond perfectionism, beginning a writing practice, and approaching creativity with greater joy, curiosity, and grace.

From writing and painting to cooking, gardening, sports, music, and even making mixtapes, this conversation is a powerful reminder that creativity belongs to everyone. You do not need to be a professional artist or abandon your existing career to make space for the creative work that nourishes you.

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS

03:00 Why creativity and artistic expression are deeply nourishing

05:00 How creativity supports anxiety, self-esteem, and executive function

06:00 What children teach us about play, imagination, and self-expression

09:00 Maurice’s creative childhood and journey from corporate law to writing

11:00 Overcoming the inner critic and creating without focusing on the outcome

16:00 Why perfectionism can prevent us from enjoying art and creativity

21:00 How creative expression can help us process emotions and anxiety

25:00 Practical writing exercises for moving beyond fear and self-consciousness

33:00 Journaling, dream writing, and developing a regular creative practice

38:00 How to begin writing without the pressure to create something extraordinary

40:00 Finding a healthier balance between consuming and creating

44:00 Screen time, video games, and choosing activities that support your creative goals

48:00 Leaving corporate law, pursuing a creative calling, and building a more fulfilling life

52:00 Everyday forms of creativity and reclaiming our attention from social media

This episode is an invitation to reconnect with the creativity that has always lived within you, release the need for perfection, and begin making something simply because the process brings you joy.

Be sure to follow Nourished with Dr. Anikó for more conversations exploring the many experiences, practices, and relationships that support a nourished life.

Maurice Carlos Ruffin:

Maurice Carlos Ruffin is a 2026 Guggenheim Fellow and the author of the national bestseller The American Daughters, The Ones Who Don’t Say They Love You, and We Cast a Shadow. His work has received numerous honors, including the Iowa Review Award in Fiction and the Louisiana Writer Award. All three of his books were named New York Times Editors’ Choice selections.

Maurice is an associate professor of creative writing at Louisiana State University and the creator of the long-running Sitting in Silence newsletter and podcast. A former corporate lawyer and New Orleans native, he is passionate about writing, teaching, consuming art, and helping others discover the joy of creative expression.

Resources Mentioned:

Podcast: Sitting In Silence - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/sitting-in-silence/id1806869164

Substack: mauricecarlosruffin.substack.com/subscribe

Books:

The American Daughters by Maurice Carlos Ruffin

The Ones Who Don’t Say They Love You by Maurice Carlos Ruffin

We Cast a Shadow by Maurice Carlos Ruffin

Sitting in Silence newsletter and podcast

The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron

Connect with Dr. Anikó:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.aniko/

Website: https://www.draniko.com/

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Disclaimer:
The content of this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and does not constitute medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. The views expressed are those of the host and guests and do not substitute for professional medical advice. Always seek the guidance of your physician or other qualified healthcare provider with any questions you may have regarding your health or a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay seeking it because of something you heard on this podcast.

Transcript

[00:00:30] Dr. Anikó: Hello, hello, y'all, and welcome back to Nourished with Dr. Aniko. I'm delighted to introduce my guest today, who is Maurice Carlos Ruffin. Maurice Carlos Ruffin is a 2026 Guggenheim Fellow, and he is the author of the national bestseller The American Daughters, as well as The Ones Who Don't Say They Love You, a One Book One New Orleans selection, which was long-listed for the Story Prize.

[00:00:57] His debut novel, We Cast A [00:01:00] Shadow, was a finalist for the PEN/Faulkner Award and the Dayton Literary Peace Prize. All three books were New York Times Editor's Choice selections. Ruffin is the winner of the Iowa Review Award in Fiction and the Louisiana Writer Award. He is an associate professor of creative writing at Louisiana State University, and he also has a long-running craft newsletter, Substack, and podcast called Sitting in Silence.

[00:01:27] He is currently editing his fourth book, and he was the 2022 Grand Marshall of the Mardi Gras Krewe of House Floats. He loves to write books, he loves to teach, and he loves to consume art. Welcome, Maurice Carlos Ruffin. 

[00:01:44] Maurice: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. 

[00:01:47] Dr. Anikó: It's so great to have you.

[00:01:48] So I wanted to start by congratulating you on being very recently named a 2026 Guggenheim Fellow. That is a really big deal. 

[00:01:58] Maurice: I think I'm still in shock over it right now. [00:02:00] Um, you know, good things can happen, and you look back on it years ago, and you go, "Maybe I should've been, like, running in circles." I'm running in circles in my head right now.

[00:02:09] Dr. Anikó: Yeah, I was gonna ask how it feels, so I guess that's how it feels. But I mean, it's a big deal. It's huge congratulations. It's so exciting. And yeah, I think sometimes when you actually get something this big, you're like, "Whoa. Wow, okay." It kind of takes you a second to catch up with reality a little bit.

[00:02:26] Maurice: Well, you know what it is, I think it's when you have dedicated years of your life to working on, uh, creative endeavors, when it finally pays off, you feel like, "Well, yeah, this was supposed to happen, right?" 

[00:02:39] Dr. Anikó: Clearly it was, 'cause it did. And it is really... I mean, we'll, we'll get to that. It, it... I... You know, obviously podcasting is a creative outlet for me, but I...

[00:02:49] And on some level, medicine is truly creative. It is an art, but it, I think it's a really different thing to make your living creatively in the creative arts because there is this idea [00:03:00] of you create and then the world's response to it does matter, you know? It's not just like, "Oh, wow, I put it out there."

[00:03:07] It's like, "I put it out there, and how is it going to be received?" And that's a, that's a whole different thing. 

[00:03:13] Maurice: Mm-hmm. I think there's something about it that, um, if you're following your artistic, um, compass, it's gonna feel good no matter what. 

[00:03:23] Dr. Anikó: Yeah. 

[00:03:24] Maurice: And I think when it feels good no matter what, that can lead to some really great things, which is other people will appreciate it and enjoy it and- In the same way that medical professionals like yourself can help, uh, heal us physically and sometimes mentally, I think with the arts there's something like that as well that's connected to it.

[00:03:38] Dr. Anikó: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, and that was one of the reasons that I even... So I met you in a, in a slightly different way, so I wasn't, I- you weren't talking about your novels and we weren't talking about your, your novels per se when I met you. You were really talking about writing and the joy of creation and expression, and sort of the expression being the point, right?

[00:03:59] It sort of [00:04:00] y- I mean, yes, if you're making a living it does matter how it's received, but like you said, if you are creating and enjoying it, then it will be received with enjoyment on some level because you are pouring your joy into it. And so when I was hearing you talk about that, I was like, "Yes!" Like, I, I would love to have you on Nourished because creativity and creative expression is so nourishing.

[00:04:21] It's such a human quality that when we lack it, we sort of l- we, we do, not sort of, we kind of lose our, our humanity a little bit. So it is so much more important. I feel like people think of it as frivolous, I think especially in the medical world sometimes, in the sort of hard sciences it's like, "Oh, it's frivolous," but it is so far, so far from frivolous.

[00:04:43] It is so deeply important spiritually, to our health. I mean, just being human, part of that is, is expressing 

[00:04:52] Maurice: Well, you know, they those, um, cave paintings, you know, the, the, uh, the buffalo being hunted by people and the hand [00:05:00] prints. And so that shows us that we've been making stuff for at least 30 to 50,000 years so far.

[00:05:04] So th- so that means it's, it's innately human, and that if healers like yourself are gonna keep us healthy to be in life, then clearly making things creatively is a part of life itself. 

[00:05:14] Dr. Anikó: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, and you know, I'm a pediatrician, so I look at a lot of things through, like, a developmental lens, and certainly through a medical lens.

[00:05:23] But I just think about, like, early opportunities for, for, for thriving and growth. And, you know, and, you know, for, for our listeners, you know, I do tend to talk a lot about the research and that kind of thing, so I'm just gonna hit a little bit of research as we start, which is that, you know, art therapy has been shown to reduce anxiety.

[00:05:43] You know, being creative and art has been shown to improve self-esteem. It's been shown to improve executive function, and I'm not saying that, you know, we need to do it, we need to create art because it improves your executive function. I'm just saying that there are these wonderful developmental outcomes.

[00:05:58] But my [00:06:00] personal belief in the way that I live my life is I believe that we should be expressing for the joy and sake of expressing ourselves. Like, the point is the expression. 

[00:06:10] Maurice: Well, I think children know it very well. I- if, if we encounter a child who didn't play at all, we would think, "Man, what's going on with that kid?"

[00:06:16] And I think that when we as children play, we are modeling the future that we want to see in the world. There's a reason why adults can, you know, build buildings and make clothes and, and cook and do, do all these amazing things, 'cause we start as children. And I think it's good that we don't lose that as we grow older.

[00:06:33] Dr. Anikó: Absolutely. Well, and you are a New Orleans native, so you can probably talk to this even more than I can, but one of the things that really struck me when I moved to New Orleans now almost 20 years ago was that, like, the whole city was creating. Like, everybody was costuming. There were doctors that I was meeting that were in, like, a jazz band or a dance troupe, and it's very normal here for [00:07:00] people to, you know, maybe have these sort of, quote, "serious jobs," but also have these creative outlets and these ways that are living very creatively.

[00:07:07] And there's so much play in New Orleans. And, you know, New Orleans is not without its problems. I'm certainly not, like, you know, brushing past that or anything like that. But I feel like one of the things that New Orleans does so beautifully is creativity and communality and play. 

[00:07:25] Maurice: I'd rather live a difficult life in New Orleans than an easy life anywhere else, and I think the reason why is because creativity and improvisation is a part of the lifestyle.

[00:07:34] I know so many doctors and lawyers and professionals who are musicians and actors and singers, and, you know, they, they, they make flower gardens and that kind of thing, and I think we just really appreciate it. I think in other places, maybe people value money and status a lot more, and I think in New Orleans, if you're having a conversation, at some point they're gonna ask, "Well, what do you do for fun?"

[00:07:53] And if you don't have an answer to that, pe- they're looking at you like, you know, like, "What's, what's going on?" You know, you um, you know, [00:08:00] life, I think in a lot of ways in New Orleans is about engaging as much as possible with making cool things, and we really admire people that make cool things. 

[00:08:07] Dr. Anikó: Agreed.

[00:08:08] Yeah, it's sort of the, like what you were saying about the kid who doesn't play. You're like, "What's wrong with you?" Like, if somebody's like, "I don't, I don't really listen to music," you'd be like, "What are you even doing here?" Like, "What's happening?" Yeah. And it is. I mean, and I moved here from Central Europe, and it was both a very kind of heady intellectual place as, as just a country, and then also I was in a very heady intellectual part of my life.

[00:08:32] I was, like, graduating from med school, so it was very much, like, thinking, studying, testing. So to come to New Orleans just felt like, wow, there is such a different way to approach life than what I've been used to. And obviously it resonated with me because I'm still here and I'm still loving it. So what role...

[00:08:51] I know we, we spoke a little bit at the Book Fest and since, but what role has creativity played in your life? Because you didn't [00:09:00] start out a writer, if I'm remembering correctly, right? 

[00:09:03] Maurice: Well, you know, I think because you're a pediatrician, you had me thinking a lot about childhood. Um, as an adult, my career was corporate lawyer, but I do think that to a certain extent, I felt like I didn't allow enough time for me to just play and make things up and use my imagination.

[00:09:19] And I know that even when I was a little kid, um, I would go above and beyond what some of my peers would do in making stories and just being a wacky little guy, you know? Um, you know, if, if we were playing make believe with our G.I. Joes and He-Man back in the '80s or whatever, I wanted to have, like, each character have a, like, a biography and, you know, what their mission was and those sort of things.

[00:09:39] So I just think that the, the creative part of my life was always pulling at me, and when I had less time to do that, I felt le- I, I felt less happy. And as I began to transition to make more and more, uh, art, you know, to write stories and write books, I felt happier and happier until I got to a place where I felt, and I still feel very fulfilled.

[00:09:59] Dr. Anikó: Yeah. [00:10:00] That's adorable. Actually, your G.I. Joes are like... You're like, "What's their motivation?" 

[00:10:05] Maurice: He wants to save his friend. 

[00:10:08] Dr. Anikó: That's beautiful. Well, because I think we all have such a vibrant creative life from the get-go. Like, it really doesn't have to be taught. It's so innate. And then along the way, so many of us get thwarted somehow, right?

[00:10:24] It's either maybe parental expectations that are like, "No, you're not gonna go to school for that. That's not a reasonable way to make a living. You'll never make a living like that." Or, you know, even teachers or parents or siblings. I know so many stories of people that sort of abandoned their creative expressions because someone was like, "That sucks," you know?

[00:10:43] And then we start to absorb those voices as our inner critics- Mm ... and sort of the ways that we hold ourselves back from our own creative expression because we don't think it's good enough. You know? It's, it's pretty heartbreaking. Like, I see it even in myself that when I was younger, like in high [00:11:00] school and even younger, I was a, I was a really quite a good singer, and I did a lot of musical theater and a lot of solo performances.

[00:11:06] And then as I got older, I just, you know, I wasn't practicing five times a week, so my voice changed a bit. Um, and then I just got older and my voice changed. It dropped a register. And, you know, for a long time I just didn't enjoy singing as much 'cause I kept just listening with that critic's ear of like, well, it's not that great anymore.

[00:11:23] And then finally I got to the point where I was like, I'm not singing to like do a recording. I'm singing because I love to express myself that way. I love to sing. And I recently joined a women's singing circle. We've only met once, but we're, we're, it's gonna r- be repeated, and it's not like a, we're not preparing for a performance or anything like that.

[00:11:45] It's literally bringing people together to just enjoy singing together and it feels so... I just feel like there's a place for that in so many people's lives who have held themselves back, 'cause that's a real thing, right? It's creativity [00:12:00] anxiety, where people cannot create because they're so anxious about, you know, the results.

[00:12:05] And you must see that quite a bit in your experience as a teacher, I would imagine. 

[00:12:10] Maurice: Oh, sure. I mean- First of all, I'm sure that you're a wonderful singer, and- ... if I ever get to hear you sing, I would love that so much. You, you were saying that. This is how my imagination thinks. There's a movie with Bruce Willis called The Fifth Element, and it's kind of a space fantasy film, and there's a scene where there's this alien with this magnificent blue skin, and she's, like, singing these amazing notes.

[00:12:31] I'm like, "I wonder if, I wonder if the doctor can sing those notes." 'Cause it's going all over the place. But it made me think about the fact, and, you know, you mentioned it in my bio, um, consuming art is important to me. And when I consume art, you know, I do it on two levels, just for sheer entertainment, just to feel something, but also just to be impressed by somebody who can do things that either I, I can't do and wouldn't wanna do, or I can't do yet and maybe I would wanna do it one day.

[00:12:56] And so, you know, I remember reading so many short [00:13:00] stories and going, "I don't understand how this was made. I... How are they so good at this?" And wishing that one day I could get there. And then, you know, look, uh, when I was younger, I was a better singer. I'm not a great singer now. I don't do it very much. But when I hear great singers, I get really inspired because I know that Part about human experience is that so many of us just really appreciate the people that can make beautiful things.

[00:13:20] And I just, you know, I, I love watching a good film, you know, reading a good book, hearing somebody, you know, hit some amazing note or do a run of notes. It's a beautiful thing. And so instead of feeling competitive and feeling like, "Oh, I have to hit a certain place," I just think it's knowing what I like to do as a creative person myself.

[00:13:39] And we've already said it a few times here. When I meet writers who feel really blocked, I will sometimes say, you know, "Do you know any seven-year-olds," for example. And if you asked them how their day went, they would just, you know, they would launch full speed, you know, with, with no fear at all. And you look at how this small child can tell their story without being so self-conscious about it.

[00:13:59] And I try [00:14:00] to encourage adults to embrace that same energy. I, I don't have kids. I do teach college, you know, sometimes I interact with high school kids in their schools. But the point is, when I see how they think about creativity, which is less self-conscious usually, it really opens me up and frees me up.

[00:14:15] Dr. Anikó: That is really beautiful, and it's so true. I mean, I've not met a self-conscious seven-year-old. They're telling you the weirdest little details, you know, that seem so important to them. And that's actually another beautiful thing I love about New Orleans is that it's such, like, a sumptuous place where just, it's so visually stimulating.

[00:14:34] Not in an over-stimulating way, but in an inspiring way. And, and as you were talking, I was thinking about, I remember seeing Cirque du Soleil for the first time when I was in high school, and I've always been a dancer and very much in the performing arts. Mm. Little bit of visual arts when I was even younger, but then I kind of ended up being in more of the performing arts world.

[00:14:52] But I remember crying 'cause I just felt it was so beautiful. Mm. It was so beautiful and inspiring to [00:15:00] see what people could do, like what human beings were capable of in this extraordinary way, and it doesn't... It didn't make me feel diminished. Like, it made me feel like I was soaring. It feels like that elevates us all, you know?

[00:15:14] Um, and it is really powerful. And I, I love your suggestion of putting yourself in the mind of a seven-year-old. And actually, I did, um, like, a little art class at one point that was about sort of, you know, making a journal for yourself, and one of the techniques that they had was, you know, paint with your non-dominant hand- Mm

[00:15:32] so that you're not as judgy about it and you're just sort of exploring, and it really changed a lot for me. Like, I was really able to just create and almost watch myself create instead of being like, "Okay, I wanna draw a tree, and I want it to look really good." You know? These ways that we cage ourselves in and block ourselves from any kind of expression is, is pretty elaborate, you know, by the time you get to adulthood.

[00:15:56] Maurice: You mentioned something else that connected with me, too, this idea of feeling [00:16:00] self-conscious, and it, it... I haven't mentioned this yet, but when I was a kid, I played orchestral music. I was a string bass player. Um, in an orchestra. And I remember being on stage probably about 1989 or so, and we had been training for months to do this performance in front of all our parents and friends and that sort of thing in the school auditorium.

[00:16:18] And I remember being on stage and playing, and I was looking around at my fellow orchestral players and I'm thinking, "Well, I think s- somebody missed a note over here, missed a note over there." And even for myself, I'm like, I, you know, I could've done better. I could've played better. And I think somebody... I think at the very end I said, "Well, I think I missed a few notes here and there."

[00:16:37] And somebody said, "Yeah, but nobody out there is gonna notice that." And I looked out in the audience, and people just seemed so happy. And I think it goes to the point that people just wanna have a good artistic experience. It makes us feel good to have that. 

[00:16:50] Dr. Anikó: Agreed. Well, and the people that are doing that, 'cause there are the nitpickers in the world.

[00:16:56] And those are the people that are probably very critical of [00:17:00] themselves and absorbed that somewhere along the way. Um, and my advice there is just, like, don't let somebody else yuck your yum. You know, very, you know, kid-friendly advice. But also, if you find yourself being one of those hyper-critical people, it's like, you know, look, look a little deeper into that and be like, "Yeah, why can't you just enjoy this experience of people coming together?"

[00:17:22] Absolutely. And especially, like, a kid's performance, you know? 

[00:17:24] Maurice: I would say to them, "Look, you should go talk to a mental health professional." I'm not joking. You know, you need to explore that and unpack that un- and try to understand why it's so important to you. Um, you know, some people will judge art so harshly, especially online, and you know, there's a stadium there where I live and there's, like, a little soccer field and there's even a sign that t- that tells the parents, "Hey, don't take it so serious.

[00:17:45] We're all here just to watch these kids have a good time." And I'm like, "Yes, we need to keep those things front of mind." 

[00:17:51] Dr. Anikó: Absolutely. I mean, I am only starting to get into the sports world with my own children, and I very... Like, I [00:18:00] am not attached to how good they are. I don't need them to get college scholarships for any of this.

[00:18:06] What I want them to do is to rise to their best capacity and just really enjoy it. Because sports, I think some of us don't think about it as a, you know, a, a way of being creative, but sports are very creative. I mean, there are a lot of sort of there's, it's kind of there's a big container for it in the sense that there's rules and that kind of thing, but it's a real avenue for creativity for a lot of folks, you know?

[00:18:28] Maurice: Absolutely. 

[00:18:30] Dr. Anikó: And so to hold that back is really... You know, put your own stuff on it is, ugh. You know, you see it a lot. You see it a lot with kids. 

[00:18:39] Maurice: And I, I think also that, you know, with sports, so when I was in high school I played football, and I just remember how it opened a world up to me. Because I, I saw myself even as a young person as like very cerebral and conflict-averse, and the kind of person who wants to be in a classroom versus like out on a field in the heat.

[00:18:57] But that whole experience changed my life because, [00:19:00] you know, it, it's the South and it's, you know, summertime and it's 95 degrees and 95% humidity and, you know, there's this muddy field and we're crawling through it like soldiers almost. I'm like, "What is going on?" And but it taught me so much about camaraderie and about respecting the leadership of the, of the adult men who were, you know, leading us.

[00:19:18] And also just this idea, even when I was playing the game itself and practicing, I was like, "Oh, there's four ways of throwing this thing that they asked me to do. I could go left or right or go fast or slow or, you know, whatever." And it just made me be more open to people that seem different. You know, I wasn't a meathead or a jock, but I understood them as a result of that.

[00:19:36] And so now that's a bit of who I am now. 

[00:19:38] Dr. Anikó: Yeah. Agreed. I do feel like we just collect, we just enrich ourselves with each experience we have. And also, you know, as a pediatrician, for those very cerebral kids, especially for girls, um, my advice is, I mean, I'm such a proponent of team sports, especially for girls, um, because it gets you [00:20:00] into a place of embodiment at best, right?

[00:20:02] Like when you're overthinking it, you're not playing your best, right? You have to get into your body. And for so many of those kids that are really high academic achievers, it is like they are just a big head With nobody connected, you know? It's like to really get into your body, and then beyond that it teaches you how to lose.

[00:20:21] Like it teaches you disappointment, it teaches you graciousness, sportsmanship. Like I really... Ooh, just hit my mic. Like I really cannot say enough good things about sports that have nothing to do with winning or losing or playing in college or going professional, just that. And like you said, the camaraderie, being on a team, recognizing that everybody's important, um, is such a huge lesson.

[00:20:45] And just being outside and not on a screen in this day and age is hugely important. Yeah. But you know, one of the things you were talking about, like when you were talking about being self-conscious, I was like, man, you were even more than self-conscious. You were like conscious of the entire orchestra, being like, [00:21:00] "You're making the mistake.

[00:21:00] You didn't play that great." Um, but you know, one of the things that we know, and actually there's some people that really believe that art is the antidote to anxiety, right? Because when we create art- When we sort of channel our emotions into art, it helps us cope with it, it helps us open these creative channels that allows us to express it, and by definition, expressing it means it's coming out of our bodies.

[00:21:25] Mm. Because one of the criticisms of, you know, modern parenting is that we're teaching our kids all these, all this language around their emotions, and then we don't teach them what to do with that, like where to go from there, right? For, you know, you could do breathing techniques. Mindfulness is incredible.

[00:21:40] Obviously, mindfulness itself is an amazing tool for anxiety, but mindfulness is also an amazing tool to open those channels for creativity because, you know, our kids are gonna develop coping skills whether we intentionally teach them or not, and one of a, one of the really big coping skills that we all have right now is getting on our phones.[00:22:00] 

[00:22:00] You know? Mm-hmm. Like, we feel discomfort, and then we're like, "Let me scroll. Let me do something." And that is not digesting anything. It's just dissociating. Um, but art and expression, it is, it's like, it digests it, it helps us understand it, and then it puts it out into the world, where it actually has the potential to maybe help somebody else through something.

[00:22:21] And- Totally ... I was thinking about that really sweet moment that I happened to just sort of like witness. I kind of just ran into it when we were at the New Orleans Book Fest, and it was in the bookstore, and this young man had come up to you. Like, I was, I was... You know, it was super crowded, so we were all kind of stuffed next to each other, but this young man came up to you and was telling you how much your work has meant to him, and it was really touching.

[00:22:45] I, I didn't, you know, stick around and eavesdrop or anything like that, but I just, I noticed it. It felt so sweet, and I didn't know if maybe you wanted to share about it a little bit. 

[00:22:54] Maurice: Oh, sure. So this was at um, New Orleans Book Festival at Tulane University, and they [00:23:00] had these, uh, tents outside with, where they were selling books.

[00:23:04] And I think I was going there to maybe just sign some copies for people to have, you know, that way they could pick it up and just, you know, go ahead and buy it. And one of the young people who worked at one of the bookstores was a guy named Cash, and he just kinda says, "Hey. Look, I've read, I've read your We Cast a Shadow, and it really affected me in a positive way.

[00:23:19] I wanna thank you for that." And you know, I, I guess I... I'm not shy, but I did disassociate a little bit. I'm like, wow, look at this young guy who's like, you know, a third of my age or whatever it was, saying that he appreciated it. And I know that myself You know, I had those experiences when I was a young person, where I would see an elder who I admired and I just wanted to tell him about it.

[00:23:38] And so it just felt good all around, and I think creativity is one of those things that brings us to that place repeatedly. We see that we're connected in so many ways. And I know that personally, you know, I couldn't have gotten anywhere without the people who encouraged me throughout my life. And I just hope that that young man will, you know, take, um, hi- his inspiration and use it to the best of his ability and make his own [00:24:00] work, 'cause I'll often will say with my own books, look, I did a pretty good job with, with these books, but I'm sure you can do even better than that.

[00:24:05] You can do something that makes you feel even more centered and more like you're doing good work for your community. So go out there and do it. 

[00:24:12] Dr. Anikó: Yeah. Well, and it's, and it's you. I mean, it's just... It was such a beautiful testament to how you express yourself, right? And put that out in the world, and then it touched somebody else.

[00:24:25] I mean, so many people, but this was, you know, the one experience that I witnessed with you and your work. Um, but it's so, so powerful, you know? So I was hoping that today you could share with us some things that you teach about creative writing and some tools that you have to just start inspiring people to just go create.

[00:24:44] Because I feel like I talk to so many people, and, you know, this applies to any kind of creation, whether it's dancing or gardening or cooking, right? It's not just, like, painting or writing a book or acting. There's so many ways in the world that we're creative. Today, we'll be talking a lot about [00:25:00] writing, but I do feel like writing is so accessible to a lot of people.

[00:25:04] Most of us, like, literally know how to write, you know, whereas some of us don't feel as comfortable painting or dancing or whatever it is. Um, and also I do run into a lot of people who are like, "Oh, I always wanted to write a book," or, or even, "I used to journal and that was really important to me, and then I stopped."

[00:25:22] Like, it does feel like, like, just like those cave paintings, there is this way that so many of us are called to write, and then we don't. Or we don't have time, which I always put in quotes because the ways in which we spend our time when we evaluate them, we realize we have a lot more time than we think we do, you know?

[00:25:41] Um, so what are your... Tell us, guide us, help us, Guggenheim Fellow Maurice Carlos Ruffin. 

[00:25:49] Maurice: Well, I am always telling people that they need to take it a little less seriously. You know, art is serious because we make it. What we make matters. But in most of the classes I [00:26:00] teach, whether it's at the university or whether I'm doing it online somewhere or, or at a festival or conference, I always say, "Look, we're gonna start very simple."

[00:26:07] And I, and I, I sometimes trick people or at least encourage them into writing things that they didn't expect that they were gonna write. And so I may do an exercise where I get them to What I'll tell them in advance, I want them to write about a third person, somebody who's not them, and just tell me, like, what makes that person upset?

[00:26:26] And often it's what makes them upset. And then we'll convert it to themself, to first person, and see where that goes. And what I'm trying to do is get them to be less, less thinking about, um, what they're ashamed or guilty about, what they feel fearful of. I have a master's in psychology, and I think that a lot of times those feelings can, can limit us and block us.

[00:26:45] And, you know, all the great artists, now, you know, whoever you wanna name, all the great creators are people that have somehow found a way to get past that block. And so first I try to get them to be less self-conscious. Then I try to convince them to think in real terms about their own [00:27:00] life. Um, where they came from, the community that they came from, their family, like their parents and their grandparents, um, about what they cared about when they were younger, because I think in a lot of ways, our childhood, it's not as formative, but it's really what we care about.

[00:27:14] We're always trying to get back to that place or away from that place in a certain way. And so I get them to write about that a little bit. And then, you know, this... I've mentioned consumption. You know, I think that a lot of times social media especially wants us to consume things that are like junk food.

[00:27:27] We, we will watch a TikTok or a Reel and forget what we saw within an hour, and that's one way of approaching things. I think that life is a little bit too short for that. Um, a long time ago, when I was probably still in my early 20s, I used to work at a place called Circuit City where I sold, um, audio equipment.

[00:27:44] And I remember there's a... There was the, the, um, appliances department, and this is like the refrigerators and the washer and dryers. And so most of the departments had younger people, but that was the older people. And so I would kind of walk over there to chat with the people that worked in that department.

[00:27:58] And one of the guys, he [00:28:00] said... Well, there was a television nearby playing a basketball game. And I was like, "Yo, Mr. Charles, you don't wanna see what's happening in the game right now?" And he said, "Look, kid, those guys are doing what they love, they're making their money, and they're on top of the world. But for me to do what I love and make my money and be on top of the world, I gotta sell these refrigerators."

[00:28:16] And it made me think about how, as a creative person, I can't just be an observer. I must be somebody who is engaging actively. So even if, even if I watch a movie or watch anime or whatever, I'm going to be thinking about it on multiple levels. And I also wanna say that, you know- Uh, people often have strong feelings about things, and certainly in the social media era, people have very strong negative feelings 'cause those algorithms are designed to make us share negative feelings.

[00:28:44] When people are really negative about things, I wanna know why. And so growing up, people were like, "Well, you shouldn't watch anime 'cause it's yada, yada, yada." And so I've begun to watch anime in the past six, seven years, and I love it. You know, people say, "Oh, that kind of music sucks." And so I'll try it and go, "Oh, interesting."

[00:28:59] And so I have [00:29:00] found time and time again that when I delve into things that I want to avoid, whether it's childhood or the place that I'm from, or it's a genre or a medium, I will find things that I can use, um, in my art. And so I'm always encouraging my students to go to those places that are not obvious, because anybody can be obvious.

[00:29:17] Obvious is not interesting. It's why you feel bored and uninspired. But when you go to the new place, now you have all this energy that will help you fly to where you wanna get to 

[00:29:26] Dr. Anikó: That, I mean, it's like art shadow work is what it sounds like. 

[00:29:31] Maurice: Yes. Uh, I'm always saying, uh, you must engage with your shadow self.

[00:29:36] You know, society is telling you to be a little block that fits into a perfect little, you know, space. And to be creative, you must be like an amoeba, you know, going in different directions and dividing yourself up and reshaping and reforming constantly. And, you know, the upshot is that people really appreciate that.

[00:29:52] I mean, we actually do love people that are creative because they're able to reveal things about ourself and our society that you can't do if you're [00:30:00] just, you know, being rote and saying what's expected. 

[00:30:03] Dr. Anikó: Yeah. Well, and it also me how we talk about emotions as conveying messages. So obviously, the experience of emotions can be pleasant or unpleasant, but the emotion themselves, or the emotions themselves are communicating something.

[00:30:18] So we might not like to feel angry, but anger is telling us that we've had a boundary crossed, you know? We might like to not like to feel frustrated, but that's telling us that we care about something and, like, something's not working, you know? So instead of running away from that and being like, "Ugh, I don't wanna feel any of that," what I'm hearing from you is like, "Get curious.

[00:30:38] Why are you angry? Why are you frustrated? Why do you think anime's a waste of time? Why do you hate that kind of music?" Which we always talk about curiosity as sort of being that starting point for, gosh, for, for almost anything, right? For even mindfulness, to sit and, and just be curious. What is it like to be in my body?

[00:30:55] What is it like to watch these thoughts right now? And, you know, again, kind of [00:31:00] circling back to the inspiration that is New Orleans, like being... having pra- a practice of mindfulness and really being embodied and present allows you to experience life, to then put that in your little creative backpack and be like, "Okay, well maybe, maybe this is something I wanna use."

[00:31:16] 'Cause, you know, a lot of what we're grappling with in life sometimes is dissociation, is that we're, like, here but not here, you know? And how do we create from a place when we're not even here right now? You know, we're just sort of worried about what, what was gonna come out, and we're not actually allowing anything to come out.

[00:31:36] Maurice: Yeah, I mean, I think that all humans have some anxiety and some depression. It's built into the state of being alive because life is stressful. But I do think we can do so many things to decrease those negative feelings, and I think that, you know, whether it's eating well, sleeping well, you know, talking to people that, you know, care about you, those things are all very important.

[00:31:57] I think that creativity is also a part of that. And I [00:32:00] think that, you know, instead of sitting there and doom scrolling after you've had too much coffee, you can just sit down and, you know, take one of those little paint by number, you know, uh, drawings and fill it in with some crayons, or you can write a quick poem, a little, you know, seven-line poem and see how that feels.

[00:32:14] Or just, you know, sing in the shower. And as a writer, it's really wonderful for me as somebody who makes books, which will, you know, be on shelves, people will buy these books, to know that when I'm sitting there just sort of playing around with a story and I'm a little lost and I'm not sure what's gonna happen next, that there's a pleasure in that, and there's a pleasure in knowing from my experience I can pull it off.

[00:32:33] And it's true of all of us. We've all told stories. People that say they can't tell a story, if you talk to your spouse or your friend or your child, you've told stories so many times. And people like myself, we teach. We just give you some tools to get to that place 

[00:32:46] Dr. Anikó: That's such a wonderful like, boosting reminder to say stories are just a part of life.

[00:32:53] We're all telling stories, whether we're teaching, you know, you might be telling a story about how you do something. This is how you hang a [00:33:00] painting or whatever it is. Um, just to remember that we're capable. And I do know I was doing... 

[00:33:06] i'm sure you know the book, um, The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron 

[00:33:11] Maurice: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:11] Dr. Anikó: Um, and I was doing that for a little bit, and I really found that that sort of practice of waking up in the morning and just writing, you know, three college-ruled papers handwritten out every morning was helpful because you're sort of not even fully awake yet.

[00:33:26] So it's like you're not awake enough to be self-critical, and you might just write down your dream or whatever it is, whatever comes out. And just being open to that practice of writing opens you up further to that practice of writing.So yeah, tell us more about that. 

[00:33:43] Maurice: You know, I'm so happy you said that.

[00:33:45] I hadn't thought about this in a while, but I went back to school to get a writing degree, an M- MFA. And you know, when I was in school, I was one of the older students. I was in my mid-30s or so at the time, and my best friend in that program was maybe in her early 20s, and yet she [00:34:00] felt like a mentor to me.

[00:34:01] And one of the things that she did when we graduated, she gave me a little, sort of a, one of those little, uh, Moleskine journals. And I think on the cover it said, like, you know, "One a day" or something like that. And the idea was that you would wake up each morning, before you thought of anything, just write your dreams.

[00:34:18] And I felt nervous about that. You know, there's so much anxiety because I'm one of the people who I'm sure I dream frequently, but I don't really remember my dreams. And yet, when I got that journal, I began to recall my dreams, and each morning I would do that. And it became a very sweet time in my life that my friend had given me this journal, and then I was writing things down, and so I filled it up, all 365 pages or so.

[00:34:38] And so many of my stories and ideas and concepts came from that period of time of using this thing that was so natural, you know, dreaming, and just letting it flow out and not overthinking it because I realized that if you have an idea, it's gonna come back. So just go ahead and express it and leave it where it is and then let it come back when the time is right.

[00:34:58] Dr. Anikó: Mm-hmm. [00:35:00] Well, yeah, and dreams in itself, I mean, I was just talking to someone else about this and I was like, you know the people that are so like, "I need to be able to measure things, and I need to be able to, like, write a study about it." And then meanwhile, we're all just going to sleep every night and going to this mystical land of dreaming, you know?

[00:35:17] Like, we're all so in touch with the mystical on the daily, on the regular. Um, but dreams in particular, I had a sleep medicine teacher, and you know, not everybody would agree with him. Jung would not agree with him, but he talked about how, you know, dreams aren't really meant to be analyzed per se. They're meant to be witnessed, you know?

[00:35:36] And it feels like when I... And you know, when you start writing your dreams down, as you know, you start really remembering them well. It's almost like the more you do it, the more, the more it becomes part of you. Um, and just that act of witnessing your dreams is incredibly powerful. Like, even if you weren't gonna go write something with it, you know, just that act is really healing and nourishing and [00:36:00] powerful.

[00:36:00] And we, you know, we don't... We... I feel like we don't even notice how, how magical so much of our life is. You know, we're just walking around, and then we all go to sleep and, and go to these distant lands and visit with people that are long gone or yet to come or, you know. It's, it's magical 

[00:36:19] Maurice: It's so magical, and I think that, you know, look, on, on one hand, we're not supposed to recall everything.

[00:36:24] We're not supposed to observe everything 'cause our brains are limited. But at the other hand, especially in times of stress or trauma or sadness, I think it is good to engage in the moment. Because if you run away from things, it's gonna catch up to you. But if you're willing to take those moments and, and acknowledge your feelings and understand that they're only feelings, and you can make decisions on how to respond to that, it's just really a great thing.

[00:36:45] And I think for myself, one of my other beloved things about being a writer is that it did make me pay more attention. I would kind of watch my life from my own sh- shoulder, and simultaneously take it less seriously, like I would get less upset and [00:37:00] take things less personally, and yet I would also have a better feeling of how to respond or when to not respond.

[00:37:06] So I think that creativity in a lot of ways can help you develop wisdom. 

[00:37:10] Dr. Anikó: Absolutely. Well, it's sort of like when when things get hard and I have that sense that like, "Oh, this is the universe kind of winking at me," there's a way that you're like, "Oh, man." Like, you just... You experience it differently. Rather than being irritated or angry, you're sort of like, "Oh, here it comes.

[00:37:28] Here's life. Here's this big game of like the... of being in the universe as this, this, this being." Um, it changes your approach completely. So okay, I'm... I feel like there's so many listeners that are like, "Okay, how do I get started? What do I do? Do I do the one day, one-page-a-day thing?" Like, what's your advice to people that are, you know, maybe not taking a creative writing class, but really trying to welcome writing either into their life for the first time or welcome it back into their life?

[00:37:56] Maurice: That's a great question. You, you mentioned in the bio that I, I have a, a [00:38:00] newsletter called Sitting in Silence. I often talk about this. How do you get started? I, I think the, the simplest thing I could say about getting started is just that you want to start and you want to start small. If you're sitting down thinking, "I'm gonna write the Great American Novel- Yeah

[00:38:13] or I'm gonna get a Pulitzer Prize," then maybe you will never start, 'cause that's too much stress for anybody. What you could do is find a book that you love and reread it, or you could find a brand-new short story you've never encountered before and read it, and see how it makes you feel. And I do think that the more you engage with other people's art with less of a feeling of fear, like, "Oh, look how good they are," but more like, "Well, we're all human, and if I was gonna tell a story like this, how would it feel?"

[00:38:39] Take that feeling and carry it forward, and then just start a journal. You know, maybe you have a physical journal which you can write with a pen. I have had now a journal for many, many years on my laptop that I've transferred from one machine to the next, and it is made to be no pressure whatsoever. I don't even care about spelling or punctuation or formatting.

[00:38:58] I just get in there every once in a while, not even every [00:39:00] day, 'cause every day for me is very stressful. Whenever I feel like I go back to this space, and I'll just write about what's been happening in my life or how I felt recently about various things or what, what is exciting me in the world of art or what have I made that's making me kind of nervous.

[00:39:12] And if you approach writing with this idea of I just wanna write something now, which is a skill that we all have, that's a great way to start. And then to become more serious about it, you can do very simple things like take an online class, or maybe in your community there's something at a library or a local school that meets once a week or once a month, and just see how it feels.

[00:39:30] And at the very least, consider starting a writing group. You know, find two or three people around town and meet once a month and, you know, share a couple pages of whatever it is and see how that feels, and just go forward with that, again, with the feeling that you just wanna make something that allows you to express yourself and allows others to react to it 

[00:39:49] Dr. Anikó: Yeah.

[00:39:50] Yeah, those are great, great ideas, great advice. And it kind of reminds me, so one part in the book 

[00:39:56] Speaker 2: there's sort of these things you have to do every week to build your creative energy [00:40:00] and creative spirit, and kind of, really it's just opening yourself to the channel of, of wherever creativity comes from.

[00:40:07] But, um, one week is a reading fast, and I found it so difficult, and I realized that so much of... And, you know, there is obviously a beautiful space for consuming art, but oftentimes we consume instead of create. And that whole week I was like, you know, I was not ever bored because I was always like, "Well, I guess I'll, uh, you know, re- reorganize the fridge or write a letter."

[00:40:34] And, you know, she gives ideas. She's like, it literally, it, it doesn't have to be like you're painting, you know, a beautiful mural or anything. You just need to be doing something. You need to be creating something. And it, you know, made me realize how often we are missing opportunities to create. Again, even if it's just rearranging the space in our home, which is creative, you know?

[00:40:54] Uh, having a conversation. Like, I really underestimated how much podcasting was [00:41:00] creative. It's become such a creative outlet for me. Uh, you know, like creating conversation with somebody else. When I do my own solo podcast, a lot of times I almost get into this sort of like stream of consciousness space where I sort of open my eyes and I'm like, "I don't even know what I just said."

[00:41:16] Um, but there's so many areas in our lives where we can be creative, and I feel like when we start to recognize them, it only feeds our, you know, writing or painting or, or whatever it is that we're sort of thinking of as our primary creative focus. But there's so many other areas in life where we're creative.

[00:41:35] Maurice: So Doc, do I understand this right? You read too much? 

[00:41:39] Dr. Anikó: No. Well, I mean, I read a lot. Um, but that week, and also it compounded it 'cause I had COVID, so I was stuck in bed, and so I like really couldn't do that much. But yeah, I was reading... Well, again, the, the advice from the book isn't stop reading. Yeah. But it is be thoughtful of that [00:42:00] balance of consuming versus creating, you know?

[00:42:03] Because the whole, I mean, the whole point of the book is to uncover your own creative, expression. and so many of us I think, and I think consuming art is such an important part of it, but, also we need to do it. Like you said, you need to start creating, too. 

[00:42:17] Maurice: Well, I, I just wanna say on behalf of all authors, we love people like you-

[00:42:22] who do a lot. You make our lives possible, so thank you for that. A- and yes, look- You're welcome ... it is true that I've encountered a lot of people who they avoid writing to do anything else. You know, maybe it's pay the bills or watch Netflix or read other people's books. In my own head, I have a kind of food pyramid of what's most valuable as a creative person, and the rule that I give myself is that write above all.

[00:42:44] So if there's ever a chance to write, if there's ever a choice between A and B, and B is writing, I'm gonna write, you know? And so I try to keep that in my mind at all times. And I think what it's done for me is that it's given me a lot of energy, and it's freed a lot of barriers. Now, again, I do love to read, I do [00:43:00] love to watch things, I do love to go to museums, that sort of thing.

[00:43:03] But I do think that as, as I'm making myself prioritize the writing itself, I've gotten a lot more done. But also, you know, you, you must go, in my opinion, to the writing with a sense of joy, just have a good time, and also with a sense of grace for yourself that you don't really necessarily know what you're doing.

[00:43:19] Um, even some of the greatest writers needed a lot of help from editors to get their work in a form that people could read. That's okay. but yes, totally. if you think reading's getting in the way, then address that. Because really life is about balance. You know, you have to find a balance between the things that you kind of wanna do and the things you need to do.

[00:43:36] And in the best version, the writing is both a want and a need. 

[00:43:39] Dr. Anikó: Yeah. what really struck me how much you were talking about when I first met you and that talk that you gave, just that there has to be joy. Like, the point of this is to enjoy it, you know?

[00:43:49] Like, not the dreading like, "Oh, God," like, "I gotta write another page, and what am I gonna write about it? My writing sucks anyway." Like, just the way that people can spin out about that. Just have fun with [00:44:00] it. Write a silly story, write a silly poem, whatever it is. But again, I also want to, as a physician, put my gold stamp on reading.

[00:44:07] It is such an amazing hobby and activity. But I do find, like, you know, o- our family were big readers, and I think it's so important to have a little bit of a North Star. Uh, like you were saying, like, "In my free time, I'm gonna write." It doesn't mean you don't ever read, it doesn't mean you don't ever consume art or go to museums, but you really prioritize it.

[00:44:26] It's always there, thinking like, "Oh, could I write right now?" Mm-hmm. And you know, I talk to kids that are, you know, doing a lot of gaming or doing a lot of screen time or whatever it is that are really, like- And you know, I know people have different opinions about gaming, but on my, you know, pediatrician radar, that's junk food in my mind.

[00:44:43] that is not really good for your brain, to be honest. It can be okay in balanced amounts, but if you're spending all your time doing that, that's not a great use of your life. I gave it up. Yeah. I, yeah. I bet it freed up a lot of time. Oh, and I- Tell us about that ... 

[00:44:55] Maurice: I must say, look, I was a part of, you know, maybe the first video game generation.

[00:44:59] I was born in the [00:45:00] late '70s, and so I was there for Pong and all the classic stuff from back in the day, and I was the exact right age for the original Super Mario Brothers, and I, my, you know, Santa Claus brought me a Nintendo, and I was the happiest kid in the world. And I had all those great experiences through the '80s and '90s.

[00:45:15] But, you know, I mean, I'm being a little cheeky here, but you know, at a certain point a man must, you know, throw away childish things. Again, I'm be- I'm being facetious. I do like childish things. But I remember in the early 2000s when I would find myself, um, you know, playing a, a NFL football game on my PlayStation for like three hours or six hours, and I was thinking, "Dude, like, what else could you be doing at this time that's more productive than just playing this game?"

[00:45:41] And as a result of that, you know, I, I would never hate video games. I think they're like anything else, in moderation it can be a very good thing. But I, I, I had decided, no, you need to definitely, again, write. Write first, and then everything else is kind of after that, and it's been a good thing for me.

[00:45:56] Dr. Anikó: Mm-hmm. Yeah. An amazing thing, clearly. [00:46:00] Guggenheim Fellow, I'm gonna say it again. It's so exciting. 

[00:46:04] Maurice: Much 

[00:46:04] Dr. Anikó: appreciated. But, yeah. But, but I also think, you know, again, like in, in measured amounts, I think it can be fine, but also games have changed. So I think also people our age are like, "Well, I played video games growing up."

[00:46:16] We're not dealing with the same animal anymore. It's not the same thing, you know? Anyway, w- this, this isn't an episode about video games, but You know, I talk to kids that are like, "Oh, I really wanna play guitar," or, "I'd really like to be a better singer," or whatever it is, and helping them name that and then put that North Star in their sky of like, "Hey, when you have some downtime, reach for your guitar.

[00:46:39] Reach for the song." You know, because all of those, you know, I have a I randomly have a friend who went to high school with John Mayer, um, and I know he's had a tricky reputation at times, but I recently saw him a couple years ago with Dead & Co. and was just so impressed with his guitar skills. Like, he really is a wonderful guitarist.

[00:46:56] And I was like, "Oh," like, "what was he like in high school?" Kind of [00:47:00] expecting to have some... 'Cause again, he did not have a great reputation for a while. And she said, "He was so sweet, and we would always invite him out to parties, but he would just, all he did was sit in his room and play guitar." You know? So I, you know, I tell my kids, the patients, that like those people that you're looking to as like, "They're such an amazing singer, they're such an amazing guitarist, they're such an, an amazing fill in the blank"- They are doing that a lot because it brings them joy.

[00:47:25] So find the things that spark you. You know? It doesn't have to be guitar. It doesn't have to be like, "I'm gonna be a rock star," 'cause sometimes that can be a complex thing as well. It's the, like you said, it's enjoy the writing, enjoy the process, have fun with it. 

[00:47:41] Maurice: I, I love to be amongst other people, and when I'm doing that, I'm present and I'm engaging and I'm trying to have a good time.

[00:47:48] But people are sometimes shocked when they ask, where do I spend most of my time? Like, who am I with? And I'm, I'm, I'm mostly alone. I'm mostly writing, and the reason why is because I really enjoy that, and it's a very common story for people that have [00:48:00] Ascended to the top of their field, that they were just totally locked into that thing.

[00:48:04] I just heard Arsenio Hall, the old, uh, talk shows from the '90s. He said even as a child, he would, like, do little fake TV shows, like, talk shows at his house, like, as a 10-year-old. You know, many singers talk about singing into their, into their brush, you know, that kind of thing. And I think that if you can find something that gives you that much joy, and if you will lock into it, it can be a great thing.

[00:48:26] Dr. Anikó: Absolutely. Well, and you know, we haven't even really talked about this, but you were in corporate law, as you say. How did you... Like, what, what were your signs that your... You were saying you weren't very happy. But, you know, what were your signs that you were like, "I need to do something different"? I feel like it's such an inspirational thing to look to somebody who has made a switch, because so many of us feel, like, locked in- Mm

[00:48:51] to our current iteration of life, and yet we're alive. There's so much freedom, you know? So can you share with us- Yeah ... how that happened? 

[00:48:59] Maurice: That's a great question. You, [00:49:00] you look, you only get one life. And look, I was probably as happy as the average corporate lawyer for what that's worth. Not a lot of happy corporate lawyers wandering around.

[00:49:08] Look, the money is great. You get some respect. You can travel pretty well, that sort of thing. But there was definitely something in my mind that kept saying, "What if you never write?" You know, "What if, you know, you were to pass tomorrow? What would you want people to say about you?" And I just kept thinking, "Well, you know, having lawyer on my tombstone would not be the thing that I necessarily want."

[00:49:25] I'm still a lawyer to this day. But I really kept thinking, "I have to take a shot at being a writer." And I think it was the Goldilocks zone. Sometimes people start too early as a writer, and they don't quite have anything to say, and they have to come back to it later. Sometimes they wait forever and forever and forever, and that's its own issue.

[00:49:40] But for me, in my early 30s, I made a choice where I said to myself, "Look, the money is great, and I will miss that kind of money, but money's not everything, and money's not even half of everything. And if I have to struggle and suffer to get to this place, it feels like it's worth it, because the, the prize will feel so much bigger."

[00:49:56] And so if on the one hand, becoming a writer or [00:50:00] being creative is about taking these small, small, small steps, that's one thing. But then there are the big goals that feel like they are as far away as the moon is. And you know, you say, "I'm gonna go up to the moon one day." People go, "You're crazy. That's nuts."

[00:50:13] But what if you made it? And that's kind of how my writing journey was. I could feel myself getting closer and closer to publishing my first short story, winning my first story prize, publishing my first book, you know, being invited to a conference in Europe, for example, and just going, "Man, you are getting close to the moon."

[00:50:28] And I feel like now I'm actually on the moon, and I want to go to Mars or Pluto or to, you know, the Oort Cloud, whatever the thing is out there in space, and it feels so much better. And I will always say that as a lawyer, again, I felt average in terms of my happiness. Um, but it took a lot of energy out of me, whereas this, I always feel more empowered every single day that I do it, and that helped me keep moving forward step by step.

[00:50:51] Dr. Anikó: Mm-hmm. God, that's such a good reminder to check in with yourself and seeing where you are getting drained, and that [00:51:00] doesn't mean that you can't ever do things that are tiring or whatever that is, but that there needs to be... You need to be fed by your life, too, and I feel like so many of us just are so dissociated from ourselves that we don't, we don't know whether we're being fed or drained or what.

[00:51:15] But I think it's also notable that you're still a lawyer, 'cause I feel like there's also this sort of mythology that, you know, the muse comes, you, like, have this lightning bolt moment where you're like, "I need to be a writer," or, "I need to be a musician," and then you quit your job and you sell all your belongings and you just pursue this dream.

[00:51:32] Like, I feel like, especially living in New Orleans, I feel like you can do it all. Like, maybe you can't be the corporate lawyer and the writer, but you can still be a lawyer and a writer. You can still be a doctor and a musician. You may need to move things around, but usually that moving things around is really, really good for everybody because, hey, guess what?

[00:51:52] When you're happier, you're gonna be doing better work as a lawyer and a doctor, too, and you're gonna be, you know, doing this wonderful creative work [00:52:00] as well. So I feel like in many ways... In, in integrative medicine, you know we do complementary alternative. We also do Western, and I feel like so many people are like, it's an either/or.

[00:52:09] Either you're doing this, like, you know, conventional medicine or you're doing, like, you know, healing work and shaman work and whatever it is, and I'm like, why can't we do it all in the right amounts, you know? Um, so I feel like that's so... It's so real and it's so inspiring and it's like, why not? Yeah. You have one life.

[00:52:26] Like, why do you feel so locked in, you know? There's, there's ways... We have more room to move and negotiate than I think we often realize. 

[00:52:36] Maurice: And the thing about it is that anybody can be creative in any way that you wanna be. I, I had... I have a friend who often reminds me that doing something like making a little zine, like a little, you know, magazine, can be this, a, a creative endeavor.

[00:52:48] You know, going to a pottery class, going to a glassblowing class, these things are all moments to get outside of our head, and I think that's really good for us in this consumerist culture where corporations are saying, "Watch a screen, play a [00:53:00] game." But doing this thing just for yourself, just to see how it feels, our bodies wanna be engaged with the world, we wanna feel embodied, and I think that even sitting at a laptop in which your finger is typing, typing, typing, and using your brain is so good for you.

[00:53:14] Dr. Anikó: Absolutely. Well, and I was thinking, I was thinking about my own childhood in preparing for this episode, and I was definitely, like, I always drew, I always sang songs, I always, like, acted out things. I had... I w- I grew up... I had two much older half-sisters, but I grew up kind of as a functional only child in my household, so I was alone, so I had a lot of conversations, sort of like acting out scenes.

[00:53:37] I did a lot of singing and dancing in my living room by myself. And I... When, when I got a little bit older, I made a ton of mixtapes, and I was thinking about how curating music is its own kind of creativity, like decorating the cover, and you're choosing the song based on, like, what you're trying to communicate and how it flows with the previous song.

[00:53:58] And you're, you know, and [00:54:00] then you have to think about length 'cause you only have so long of a tape. It's not like a playlist that can go on forever. So all these, you know, obviously singing, dancing, painting, all that sounds very obviously creative, but the mixtape stuff, like, that was incredibly creative as well.

[00:54:13] Like, I feel like there's so many ways that we express ourselves that we don't even realize is, is... That, that that's what we're doing. And like you said, our attention is being commodified, so all of these social media companies and all these people are literally trying to get our attention so that we make money for them, so we can't actually emancipate ourselves from that and use our energy and creativity to be present in the real world and create what we wanna create, not just make money for all these huge companies.

[00:54:44] Maurice: You know, Doc, you really brought back a warm memory that I have not thought about in at least 35 years. I can recall being an early teen and taking my little, uh, cassettes and recording from the radio or recording from my friend's cassettes, and taking the little paper that goes in the box and writing out the name [00:55:00] of each song and how long the songs were, and what's on side A and what's on side B.

[00:55:03] And that tactile sensation has stayed with me now for decades, and I'm happy that I did that. 

[00:55:09] Dr. Anikó: Yeah. I know. It was such... I feel like we did all these things. And again, like, as a pediatrician, my heart aches for some kids that are really living their lives online, and so many adults, but at least we got that lived childhood, you know?

[00:55:24] But kids that are kind of not getting that experience and how, how much it disconnects us from our humanity, and how much our creativity connects us with our humanity because it is in all of us. 

[00:55:37] Maurice: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that things will probably change. I do believe that the social media era is limited.

[00:55:44] I think it's gonna burn itself out, because those kinds of things always burn out. And I think that people are beginning to understand, especially young people under- understanding that one-on-one interactions, being present, putting yourself out there, being awkward, making mistakes, is a lot better than watching somebody else be awkward and make mistakes.[00:56:00] 

[00:56:00] And so my hope is that we will all be more creative, and we'll all write and make more cool things, and I'm there for it. 

[00:56:05] Dr. Anikó: I'm there for it, too. That is a wonderful way to end our episode. It has been such a delight to have you. I hope the first of many episodes together. thank you so much for being here today.

[00:56:17] Maurice: I feel very nourished. Thank you so much. 

[00:56:19] Dr. Anikó: Aw, me too. And I hope our listeners feel very nourished as well. Thank y'all for being here, and I'll see y'all next time. 

[00:56:28] Maurice: Toodles.