Fred Wakefield: Pivoting from Pro Football to Business Leadership

From the Football Gridiron to Business Leadership: Fred Wakefield's Journey

Join us for an inspiring conversation with Fred Wakefield, co-founder and CEO of Thrive CXO. Fred's incredible journey spans from playing professional football with the Arizona Cardinals and Oakland Raiders to earning an MBA from the University of Illinois and transitioning into a successful career in business leadership. 

In this episode, Fred shares his experiences and insights on scaling organizations, developing leadership teams, and making a lasting impact beyond the boardroom.

Fred also discusses his early life in Illinois, his career switch from football to business, and the importance of embracing the journey. Don't miss this candid chat with a true game-changer who's as passionate about business as he was about football.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

People always say like it's your identity, but it's probably more than that. I don't know if it can be more than your identity. But it's like you spend so much of your time in the locker room with those people and so much time owning that craft.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Hey there, welcome back to Above and Beyond Recon Speeds Elevation. I'm your host, Jan Simon, and this season we're raising the bar, diving into the passion and purpose, and finding moments of leadership. Don't just aim high, they look there, big ideas, real stories. Let's get into it. Alright, today's guest is a co-founder and CEO of Drive CXO, a business catalyst firm dedicated to helping leaders and organizations scale with clarity, accountability, and impact. His journey is a remarkable one from playing in the NFL with the Arizona Cardinals and Oakland Raiders to earning his MBA with the University of Illinois and stepping into business leadership with the same principle and team-first mentality that defined his career on the field. Now through Thrive CXO, he works with visionary entrepreneurs and leadership teams to align structure, people, and strategy. So growth isn't just possible, it's sustainable. His focus is on building healthy leadership teams, creating proven systems to scale, and developing leaders who make a lasting difference not only in the business but in their communities. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you a friend. Thank you. Wow, that's wordy. It was kind of long, but we're good. I think we kept it under about 30 seconds. Maybe there's a minute because maybe a half. Cut it off. Cut it all out. Right, cut it out. What'd you say? CXO. So Red? Mr. Fred. If you want to know, call me. Yeah. If you'd like to know more, call Fred.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

So Fred, where'd you grow up? A tiny town in the middle of Illinois called Tuskell, Illinois. Okay. Were you a farm boy? No. What's funny is most of my friends weren't either. I had a couple buddies, big farm boys. Okay. A couple of them still talk to every once in a while. He stayed on the farm. He's my ringer golfer as well. But uh for the most part, no. Small town, but did not grow up out in the actual cornfields. Okay. Didn't throw bales of hay and stuff. I did that a couple times. We got I got bribed into it one year. Mike, one of my high school buddies, is like, hey, want to go make some money? I'm like, sure, what do you got? Oh, stupid idea. Yeah. That was probably when they were still throwing them by hand. By hand, same thing, walking beans. Anybody grows up back there knew that one. Detassling, which at 6'6 at that point in time, detassing the corns like right in your face. So, yes, a lot of life learning experiences that kids don't nowadays probably don't do anymore. That's crazy. Same town grew up the whole time, or do you jump around? You jumped around a little bit. I mean, when I originally I was born in a probably actually a little bit bigger town. I don't know. Parents divorced at a young age, moved up that way, was there, but moved around a lot between there and the bigger town Champagne, which is where the University of Illinois is at. Yep. I think my wife and I did the math at one point in time. I had lived at like 20 different houses. Oh my gosh. Between the time I was born and by the time I graduated college. Okay. Just how it worked. So I never really thought much about it.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Brothers and sisters. I have one brother, two half-brothers, and two stepbrothers. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Yeah. And is your blood brother? Is he as big as you are?

SPEAKER_01 3:21

No. He is about six two, six three. Really? Went a total different path in life. No kidding. Yeah. And you're six seven. Yeah. We still haven't figured that one out. I've got a couple my grandma always says she's like, You had a couple uncles, I've met them. She's like, they're like six five, they're like six two. Yeah. Right? Outside of that, there was no one else in my family that was over six three or six four. No kidding. Wow, that's incredible. Blessed for sure. Yeah. You're almost drank a lot of milk or something. Definitely helped the first career path. Well, that's the other one people joke about. Back then that there was other stuff in milk. I got the right mix of milk as well. Ormoth for sure.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Yeah. Whatever they were. When did you get into sports? I mean, how how old were you when that started happening?

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Yeah, so growing up in a tiny town, that's basically your path. You're either, well, now you're probably a computer kid or a sports kid, but back then you only choose really being sports, right? There were a few other activities, I think were like Boy Scouts or things like that back then, but for most part of you wouldn't be a part of a group, you were at least in a sport. And we were in a tiny town, you were in all of the sports. Yep. And so started playing at a young age. I remember football was obviously the first one that I could really connect to. I mean, I wasn't as big as I am now growing up, but had a really major spurt, probably going into junior high and then going into high school again. Okay. But was still always pretty good at that one. I even remember coming back, and one of the students, when we moved away for a while, I moved back into town right before football season, like, oh, the guy who gets all the sacks back. And at that point in time, like, oh, that kind of recognition feels good. It's because you haven't been around at six months, right? Uh and so found out really fast that when you're moving a lot and you're trying to make friends and one of you notice, being good at sports was helpful.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Did you play both sides of the line in football? Uh uh I did eventually, right? Like I said, small school, I'm just trying to remember back in junior high days. You haven't played a lot of defense. I don't remember a whole lot on the offensive side, but that's because defense was more fun. Yeah. You just put your head down, hit somebody. Yeah, the world of jumping back and forth didn't even didn't happen until high school. But once I got to high school, man, I think we had 76 people in our graduating class. So smaller town, smaller school. And so I mean, at my size, you had to play both ways. So mostly offensive line, and I actually played middle linebacker of all things at 6'6, 6'7, which was hilarious. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Your arms up. I used to be able to run. Right. Okay. Just put your arms up.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Yeah. Stand in the middle of the field. What are you doing? Excited. It's six, six, or six, seven, small school. I was bigger than a lot of people. Okay. And so being able to run and do that just was really advantageous. What other sports? Played basketball. Okay. I think my freshman year, high school, sophomore year high school, I really thought that would probably be the path at six, six, six, seven. Well, then I started realizing okay, most of those guys that play in college are guards, and dribbling was not one of my major skill sets. Still loved it. Great sport. Man, baseball was terrible. I think I had one or two years of baseball. So then I gravitated to track. I had a stay in Winky, very influential coach and person in my life. He was the one kind of helped me got a guide through the football thing. So he noticed me as a freshman in high school. And he's the one who's like, okay, you're not playing baseball, you need to go play track. Play track, run track, run track. So what events did you do in track? I was a sprinter of all things back then, yeah. So my junior year went to state in high jump four by two. I don't want there was another one in there too. I don't remember. I went in three different sports. Wow. Or three events that year. Okay. And then my junior year, all those guys graduated and I needed to go put on weight before I got ran over at Illinois. And so because at that point in time, I was probably six seven, they say two fifteen. That's generous at that point in time. So I went and basically spent that next year training. But wow.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

What it if you don't mind me asking, if you remember, what was your 40s when you oh my coming out? Do you remember? In high school.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

I would say in high school at that light, I was probably just under a five, right? Because I mean, my I remember my strength coach was my football coach, right? And once he started learning what I was gonna need to do at the University of Illinois, he started implementing that into our programs. And so I remember pretty early on in my career, my high school career, like he was starting to put together like Olympic lifts and training and styometrics and stuff, which I mean I don't know how many coaches were doing back then, right? And so that was phenomenal to get that kind of training experience, but still you don't develop that type of muscle until you go to college. Now it's different. I mean, kids cover training since they're like four.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Right. Well, and I was gonna say, especially at a small school. I mean, I grew up in a really small school. We didn't really have a weight program for football. I mean, it was show up and here's your place. Oh, we lost, here's different plays for next week. Right. Yeah. You know, it's like it's like, wait, wait a second, I don't remember the ones we had last week.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

No, we were blessed. We had really good both offensive coaches, defensive coaches. I mean, I remember our defensive coordinator, we actually had a defensive coordinator in high school at that point in time. And he would come a different scheme every week, right? And it was really cool how we were able to kind of transition and change, which made it more fun, right? And so that was really great. And then the next couple years after we had graduated, that my high school coach for the I don't know, sorry, Wink, if you ever listen to this, but like I don't know how many records that team broke over the next few years of the different offenses he put in place. Oh, no kidding. He started going to the empty and what it was it, run and shoot, or whatever they called that like wide open spread offense, which was, like I said, unheard of at the high school level at that point in time.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Yeah, that's awesome. So you were you I mean, sounds like pretty early on you started focusing football direction. Were you in band, a good student to get yourself in trouble?

SPEAKER_01 8:38

My band experience lasted about two days in like seventh grade, and I was like, nope, don't have this gene. So I passed that one on. No, I was really involved in high school, eventually was class president, student council, different clubs. I mean, I stayed involved. Nice. Like I said, any way I could just be out around people, yeah. Right. And especially like I said, small town, it's it's how you survived. Yeah, and it was just different there. I mean, I look at my kids who grew up out here for most of their lives, and uh, it still happened to an extent, but like these bigger schools out here, there's it's just so much more access, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Back then you had to be involved in everything so you could kind of figure out who your people were.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Yeah, yeah. That's that's incredible. Yeah. Graduated high school eventually. Nice game. After eight years, you were an overdeveloped teenager coming into college. Did you go straight to University of Illinois or did you go?

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Yeah, so had a few different options. It's it's funny you think about recruiting now, and it's just it's insane. Posts and tweets and all these different things, right? Back then you still got like physical letters like sent to you when you were being recruited. Yep. I I still think back, and my mom probably still has a stash somewhere. I had like this case with just all the letters I got from everyone at one. Oh, wow. And so started getting recruited pretty heavily my sophomore year. Junior year got more focused, senior year kind of bled more into kind of those three or four schools I really wanted to go to. Ironically enough, the school that I despise the most, Iowa, was the first one that offered me. Oh wow. Ended up going to Illinois. Okay. Still talk trash about Iowa consistently, even though two of my very best friends coach there now. It's just more fun than anything. Yeah. But went to Illinois and actually when I went to Illinois, I thought I was gonna go on defense and actually went as a tight end to start. No, no kidding. So I was tight in for the first, I don't know, week or two before they kicked me out of there. Okay. And basically what had happened was a couple D-linemen had gotten hurt and said, hey, we need some help on show team stuff, because as a six, seven, two hundred and fifteen-pound freshman, you're not gonna play a whole lot of real reps, right? So went down there and just started creating a lot of disruption. So the coach is like, we're gonna leave you down here. Make it really tough for the six foot one, six foot two quarterback to throw. I don't know, right? I mean, I remember a couple of the assistant coaches screaming at me consistently, but I'm like, I felt like I had to prove myself for a while, right? So just kind of went and grinded through it and got a lot of fights and stayed on the defensive side through the rest of that college career.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Nice. In college, I tell me what kind of student you were. I mean, obviously you're an athlete. Yep. You you seem very astute and smart to me now. What do you say? Were you a big dumb lineman? What I mean, was was school fairly easy to you at that time, or did you have to work really hard to to get keep both each piece and student? I'll tell you this over again.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

I know that I'm very blessed. Like I said, six, seven, you know, two fifteenth that point in time could run, but I was also a really good student. I missed valedictorian by B plus at high school. Wow. It was funny. I ran into that teacher like four or five years ago when we were back in Illinois, and he's he had no idea. And he's like, I'm so sorry. I'm like, why? Like you gave me the grade I earned. Yeah, right, right. It's not your fault. Yeah. I mean, it was college prep English. Is anybody good at that one? Right. So Miss Valedictorian by B plus. So when I went into college, like I had good study skills and kind of knew how to manage different things. And so you had to get used to like other things though, like study hall and people looking over your shoulder all the time and just making sure because you're you are with a bunch of knuckleheads, right? And so you you have to kind of prove that you are a good student to start. But gotcha. Was always pretty good student and really focused more on school early because I didn't think I was gonna go play in the NFL. I know. I mean, even when I played back then, most guys didn't show up thinking how I'm going to the NFL. That's not how we were wired back then at like now. It was more like, hey, I'm gonna go and be a really good college football player and get a degree and go get a job.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

And so I was much more focused. At one point in time, when I first going through college, I thought I was gonna go be a chiropractor. Oh, really? Okay. Funny thing is, I started doing a bunch of interning even in my junior year, and I started to realize people are terrified of me. You walk into a room with a You're gonna do what? Yeah, 60-year-old lady who's tiny and sees me like, you will not touch me. Yeah, you're not trying to crack my that's awesome. So then start to realize I probably need to pick a different career eventually. But yeah, so early on, good student, stayed a good student through, but it wasn't until I think my sophomore year that I started having an understanding that wow, people really think I could have a chance to go play in the NFL, and that became a little more focus.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yeah. What what does that look like when you're in college and I mean you're obviously a freshman, you're kind of a nobody, you're getting yourself accumulated acclimated? Acclimated. There you go. That word was there somewhere. Acclimated. Maybe by the end of your freshman year, there's some notice you might start putting on some weight. I mean, you get to that point where your body's. I mean, nowadays I feel like I don't know what they're putting in our food, but the kids these days, I mean, by the time they're 18 have full beards. I would it's 30 before I can even grow.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

We laugh about this, but I saw a video the other day on one of the social media threads where they were showing like Penn State's like roster from like 88. And he's like, these people look like everybody's dad, right? Because they had like full mustaches. I think maybe it's come full circle again. It's so funny. But yeah, so the the interesting thing when I'm telling you, when I was playing, right, I just wanted to be really good at playing defensive line, right, at that point in time.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

And it coach Ron Turner and I were at a defensive end. Yeah. So I'd moved to D end. Okay. Whatever they kicked me out of the tight end room. Gotcha. Went to defensive end and Ron Turner and I were at like, I don't remember, like a Kiwanis Club luncheon thing in Pescola. And during the event is when he made a comment. He's like, Fred's gonna play 10 years in the league. And I was like, no kidding. Right? Had no idea. And then it kind of clicked, and I and so I remember going to meet with him like a week or two later in his office, but you really think they're like, Yeah, you don't realize this. I'm like, I had no idea. I just want to be a good player. Right. And so it wasn't until then that you really even understood that you could be pretty good. And I realized we didn't have the same social media. Yeah, I talked to the news people all the time. I just thought that's what you were supposed to do.

SPEAKER_04 14:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

And it wasn't until probably my junior year when you start having agents reach out and trying to kind of set up time to talk to you in the offseason that you're like, okay, I guess I'm better than I realize I am. Wow. Yeah. That's cool. It was it was different, but there were some weird steps that we had to go through. I got really, really sick my sophomore year of college. We were in training camp, and I don't know if this is one you read, but it's a kind of an interesting kind of battle story that I had to kind of navigate with. Showed up to camp and I'm like, wow, I just don't have the energy. And at that point in time, remember I told you I was a runner, right? Like I was the guy in what they used to call gasters, could do, I don't know, we would do kids you know like 24 gasters in a day and I'd be fine, right? Wow. And then all of a sudden we're in training camp and I'm like, I just can't catch my breath. Like, what's going on? Well, they're like, hey, you know what? We maybe if like if they get bronchitis or something. So they sent me out of practice for like three or four days to kind of evaluate it. And then they're like, all right, and I'm like, okay, I'm supposed to go back to practice that day. We just got back into champagne and I'm like, some still doesn't really feel right. I don't think I should go run. And they're like, well, let's just go get you tested. So they go do chest x-ray and come to find out my heart had enlarged, like doubled or tripled the size it was supposed to, and it was resting on my diaphragm. Oh my god. So they immediately checked me in to I don't remember if I went to ICU, but I remember just immediately getting checked in, right? IV stuck into me, anti anti-inflammatories gone like crazy. And they're like, You had caught some virus that affected and enlarged your heart, pericarditis, etc. Wow. Like we could either drain it or we could just start a regimen to kind of start decreasing everything. Well, you I went from being ready to go, excited about that sophomore season, ready to start and play, to where I lost like 25 pounds in like a week. Wow. Fortunately, through the doctor's help and just catching it, thank goodness. Because they're like, if you would have had a collision with that kind of mass going, like who knows what could have happened, right? So ended up catching it, lost a bunch of weight. Somehow or another, I came back like week six or seven, probably shouldn't have hindsight being 2020, but was still able to play through it. But it was that was one where you're kind of like, whoa, like I mean, you're a college kid playing you know, D1 football. Like you feel pretty invincible. Yeah. And all of a sudden you're like, ooh, okay. That really kind of smacks you on your butt and makes you realize you kind of just take a step back and evaluate things.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Yeah. Did you at that point think your your career was starting like moonlight, or was that even No, the weirdest thing is like once I got out of the hospital, I was like, okay, I'm gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

But I remember the worst thing is like I'd go out to practice and obviously couldn't practice, and they'd be like, all right, just walk around the practice fields for like three laps, and you're like, all right, this is boring. What am I doing? Half a lap in, you're like, oh my gosh. You couldn't breathe. You're like, why can't I mean this is ridiculous? I mean, at this point in time, it'd only been two weeks since I've been on the practice field, three weeks maybe, and so it's not like it'd been forever.

SPEAKER_03 17:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

And I'm like, you start questioning like, how am I gonna get back to a point where I can like run again? Because at that point in time, I'd never taken time off. I mean, you went from football to basketball to track to run around like an idiot through the summer. Yeah, and then you're in camps all summer long, and then you just kind of went through that cycle that you were never really out of shape, and now you're like, Whoa, I am really, really out of shape. Yeah. And so there were moments where you're like, how does this even come back? And just Al Martin Dale, who was freaking awesome, he led to talk all kinds of trash. He was our trainer, and he'd always be like, dude, you're gonna be fine. Just relax, right? And each day you'd kind of push me to a little bit more, and over time just really kind of made a difference and you figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

That's awesome. Did you so that's your sophomore year? You came back week seven, eight, something like that. I mean, it's fuzzy at best. And then coming back into junior, senior year, did you play both your junior and your senior? Or did you go, did you exit early? Nope, I stayed.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

I was not that guy. And I think back, I don't remember a whole lot of guys being that leaf early guy. I mean, we had one guy, Justin Smith, that trained with us, so he came out a year early. And but other than that, I felt like it was way more rare back then. Okay. But yeah, ended up playing out those last couple years, really good season or junior year, decent season. Well, I had a good season. Our team didn't have a great season. My senior year was supposed to be like the ninth or tenth defensive end in the country coming into the draft of that year. And so everybody, my agents were like, You're probably gonna go late third, worst case early fourth round. And then never got drafted. So it was kind of one of those, like, who what the heck freaking happened?

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Yeah. That's we sat through Cam's draft party for the for the first day, and it's like you kind of wait, and it's like, okay, well, yeah, you know, the second day comes, you know, and obviously he got drafted, but it's well now it's just as bad because they drank out for like four days or two days or whatever it is now forever. So what what's what's in your period in your growing up, let's say from uh you know, elementary school through high school and then into college, did you have anybody along the way that either had to sit you down and say, you know, look, you got something special, but you're gonna need to take care of it, or kind of influenced you to think you mentioned a couple times that people were kind of you know, that thought, but I was really self-motivated, but I had people who leaned in hard.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Like I said, Stan Winky, my high school coach. I mean, he didn't need to go learn all that crap, right? But he like, okay, I see the least thing I'm gonna do, I'm gonna go figure out how to do it. We're gonna teach you how to do it and kind of help mold you into that, right? Yeah. And then was just a huge advocate. I mean, no one was trying to recruit everyone out of tiny Tuscell, Illinois at that point in time. Ironically enough, we've had a lot, quite a few D1 kids come out of there now, which is just a tribute to kind of what kind of a program they've built at that small school. Yeah. But Stan leaned in hard, super hard, right? So he was the first one. And then my D-line coach in the second round of coaches. So first was Lou Tepper, and there were some good folks in that group, right? Don't get me wrong, but but Ose Lewis, who's now passed away, was my D-line coach. Same thing where he'd kind of pulled me aside and he's like, All right, you've you've got some something. And so he would just lean on me, like grind a little bit more, grind a little bit more. And they got to the point where he just he knew I was one of those guys he could kind of count on, right? So he leaned in pretty heavy. Ron Turner over those years just kind of kept leaning in. And so consistently had guys that that molded me along the way. And so I realized the impact that strong, influential mentors can have, both, you know, in my football career, and it's happened in my post-football career just as much.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Perfect. With regards to graduating college, what is your degree in?

SPEAKER_01 20:44

So I was a kinesiology major. Like I said, I was gonna go be a chiropractor and first I was gonna be an anesthesiologist was my plan, my freshman year, and then I looked at how much school that was and trying to do that and play football at the same time. This isn't gonna work. I gotta pick something different.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Yeah. So pivoted. Okay. And then did you end up going to post-secondary school or did you do like a played through or sorry through high school, went to the pros.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Once I got done with the pros, I went back and got my MBA.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Oh, you did? Okay. Yeah. Okay. To graduate college, you enter the draft, nothing happened. No. It was what what happens then? What what do you do as a player? I mean, obviously you've you've probably got a uh you know, a group of people that's kind of pushing you in a direction type of thing. Do you then go to the combine? I mean, what does that look like? Yeah, so like it's making me realize how much you don't know about this process.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Yeah. The combine, no idea. The combine happens months before the draft. And so I was at the combine and had a bunch of really good interviews. And so I felt good about it. And I had teams I knew were interested. To this day, I've asked a few people. I mean, if anybody's listening and knows anything better, I really don't care anymore. So keep it to yourself. Call us and let us know. But at that point in time, I really am not sure kind of what happened in Sled. That being said, my agent, Mark Heligman, was. Fantastic. Right. He immediately, like, I remember because I'm pretty sure it was in two days back then, right? You did one through three and then four, five, six, and seven, right? And so you weren't talking about a long day.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

And so that fourth round kind of goes through. I wake up that morning and think I'm going to get a call pretty early. And now the gate phone's not ringing. I'm kind of like, huh, interesting. In the fourth round, start getting some phone calls. Well, I get a little bit of phone calls here and there all the way through, and it just keeps going, it keeps going. It gets to the point where my agent and I are talking and we're like, seventh round, it's kind of better if you don't get picked up now. And then we can pick where you're going to go. Oh, wow. Okay. Right. And so then you're kind of in this weird mode, though, where your pride starts setting in, and you're like, God, at least I didn't have some party with like 50 people sitting there. That'd be worse, right? Yeah. But instead, you're still just kind of sitting there and you're like, what the heck, man? I've I've put in the time. I did all the things I was supposed to go do, and I can get a chance. Like, what the hell's going on here?

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Well, and and especially, I mean, obviously you've already said this. You didn't have the social media and all that stuff back then, right? But you were still kind of getting told, you know, maybe nine, nine, ten in the, you know, in the picking.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Well, at this point in time, like, guys, no offense to anyone out there, but Charlie had picked, I don't even know who they were. They were in the same position. I'm like, what is going on here? Oh, wow. And and so then I've kind of been like, all right, God, give me a shot here. And ooh, I'm gonna scan the same thing, right? Going from small school to big dim school, a lot of guys they wanted you to do well, but they wouldn't plan on you doing well, right? Yeah. Same thing. You go undrafted and then you go to the NFL, you're like, all right, here we go. Let's do this. Yeah, show show somebody that. And so then it came down to where I had, I don't know, 15 to 20 different teams calling, wanting me to come in as a free agent.

SPEAKER_04 23:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

And so then my agent and I shared time like, hey, we're not looking at just whatever money they can give you, because at that point in time it's changed compared to what all the other guys have gotten. It's more like, what's the best opportunity? And he saw that, you know, the Cardinals what they had from like injuries and who they had drafted and kind of veteran players. He's like, this is probably a really, really good opportunity for you. To get some time. Yeah, to kind of get some reps early. Yeah. Right? Because that's what you have to, like, especially back then when you had four preseason games and and a lot more contact and practice. Like you just wanted reps. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Well, and there weren't as many, there weren't as many soft touch rules. I guess I mean I don't know how to do that. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

There was a lot more pattern practices.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

I was I was watching a video the other day, it just kind of popped up in my feed, but it was like, I think like Barry Sanders and and Walter Payton and some of those guys. I mean, it was it was basically, you know, real hits in the NFL, you know. For sure. And it's like it's pretty massive.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

I tell people you can't say this now, but when like when I played, I wanted to hurt people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

That's just how it was designed by that. But that's how it was. I mean, you know, and I've seen different reels and videos and you know, football in the 90s, and you're putting the black undergoing, you know, and and now it's like and football today, and they're like paying their fingernails. You know, like that's probably what meaning about there so it is, absolutely. But but I mean it's just you know, it's it's kind of funny because I think about that. I mean, I think and and I was I'm a couple years older than you. I think that I mean I played in high school, I never played past high school, but I think about like the pads I had these huge, they're probably like a lineman's shoulder pads, you know, trying to throw footballs and and and then you know, we all had the you know, you didn't have the neoprene pads, you had elbow sleeve, and it was like a giant pad on the edge. Exactly. You know, I mean the and the hand pads that were like big old puffy or the guys that had the full neck roll that's your head the boss where the neck rolls and stuff like that. So I just think about that, and and but you're right. I mean, guys were hitting. I mean for sure. They're hitting today, but there's a lot more.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Oh, I I mean I've joked with my wife that just the amount of less hits you take. I mean, like I was a wedge guy forever, right? They can't do the wedge anymore. That's where probably 70% of my injuries came from that stupid wedge when you kick off return. Yeah, or just this less pounding and practices. Like if I could have made the team that first year, but because that's the hard part. Like I I made the team because I grinded and took a lot of freaking reps. Every time there's an extra rep, I was sticking my nose in there all the time. I was fighting, literally fighting and battling all the time. Yeah, and that's what gave me my shot once I got here. But guy came into a good opportunity. I'll admit first time I landed in Arizona off the plane from Illinois. I'm like, oh my god, what oven did I walk into? Because it was like June OTAs. Yeah. We did have you just kind of walked into a really good opportunity and had to battle in a spot.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

That's awesome. Do you have any good stories of when you were in the NFL? Oh my gosh. I mean anything that you can share.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Yeah, I mean, one of you alluded to, I mean, there were there were I I you know I know that I'm probably still rare, but there's more but in all the positions that I played in that time frame, right? So came in those first couple years, played defensive end under Dave McGuinness and that crew. We didn't win very much, but that group was fun. Fun group of guys to play with, fun coaches to play for. But man, it was man, we were really bad football team back then. And so we had to fight our own fun a lot, which usually came in practice. But Denny Green comes in. Oh, so first off, you alluded to this one a little bit, but trying to figure out how to start this story and not spend an hour and a half telling this story. Oh, which is so like I said, I came in as a defensive end, right? When I got here, I was one of five other people on fourth string. Does that make sense? So, like your fourth string just because they don't go past fourth string on the depth chart, you're basically one of however many people on fourth string.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

You're just dying for reps. You're on the bubble to possibly go pack your bag.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Yeah, and so every time you can get a rep, you're getting it, right? Even if it's stupid one-on-one bashing faces with an offensive lineman twice your size, like you're just trying to get reps so you can just prove that you belong out there and can play. Still to this day, don't know how it shook out, but I mean, eventually you get to the point where that first year, I played every single game as an undrafted free agent starting, I played in every game and played in every game on defense as some aspect.

SPEAKER_03 27:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Right. The next year was the starter on defensive end, played well through that year, got a new contract where they went from a free agent contract to a four-year deal, which was awesome, right? Yeah. All because I had that itch to prove everybody wrong. But also I'm like, God, this first, the first two with three weeks you're out there like, okay, I know I can do this. This is not as intense as I was expecting. Yeah. Got there and proved ourselves. Well, then that next year, a down season, which at that point in time, I don't know what was considered a down season because we were just, we were rough, right? We just we weren't improving, I guess was the best way to bring it up, right? So then we knew that staff was on the way out, and then I'd had a couple concussions, had to sit out a little bit, and then came back and could play. But all of a sudden the coaching staff was like, hey, we've got to kind of prove ourselves. So these guys that we've drafted that Fred's playing against, like, they need more reps, and we need to show them that they can play. And and so basically got benched for guys that I was better than, right? And it's hard for me to say that.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

That's not how I'm wired, but man, you're sitting there watching this consistently and just seeing guys out there, and you're like, oh my gosh, he's getting killed, right? And so you you're sitting there and you're kind of battling with this. This is a professional sport. Like, yeah, you're supposed to have the best people on the field, but you start realizing that even at that level back then there was some aspect of politics to it. Yeah. So then my playing time went way down. I played in the last game of the year. I'm pretty sure that was against the Vikings or Packers. Someone played really, really well. And then that next year, Diddy comes in.

unknown 29:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

And I'm sitting there and I'm like, all right, new clean slate. Well, like second or third press conference did he has. He's like, not sure what happened with Wakefield. It was one of the best D line that we had. He's one of my starters week one. I'm like, whoa, sweet. Right? So this is exciting. This is a change from patient what I'm used to. I'm having to earn my spot every single year. Well, then we go through like the first OTAs, and I had broke my wrist and had to put a plate in. So I'm practicing through all these OTAs with a plate. Three weeks out of surgery with a cast on. Every time I have to come out, they'd have to cut the cast open and redo it because it smelled so bad. And my wrist would be so swung by by my, I don't care. Like it's I don't know how it is now, but back then, like, I'm earning a spot again. Yeah. Right? Like, I've got to play. So I'd go out and play. Well, then Denny walks through one day and he goes, You better not prove me wrong. I'm gonna move you to offensive line. And I'm like, Ha. Like, whatever. Like, totally think he's joking. So play through the rest of OTAs and playing well, even though Deke Pollard, my D-line coach, yelled at me every day, you'd think I was playing terrible. But keep kind of grinding through. We get into camp and not really sure kind of what happened, just had something weird happen with my foot, so I had a minor stress fracture. And so they're like, all right, let's leave you out for a week and then we'll evaluate it. So I sit out that week and they go to kind of do an x-ray, like, all right you're probably gonna be out. I think they said four or five weeks. Well, then I get a call up to Denny's office, and that was a weird year. I don't remember why, but we were not in Flagstaff that year. We were in like Prescott or somewhere. I don't remember why we did that. But anyway, so I go meet with uh Denny. This is I think I remember what year we're running into now. They're all kind of running together. And he goes, I'm gonna move you to offense. I'm like, excuse me? And he's like, Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna move you. So basically, we're gonna sit you out this year. We're basically a redshirt and you're gonna learn the offense. And I was like, I thought you were joking. And so we kind of sat there for a little bit and he's like, nah, like I need you to do this. Like, just think you could have a long career as a lineman, kind of. And at that point in time, you gotta realize like the Dwight Preenies of the world were starting to come in, and I was a six, seven, two hundred and eighty-five-pound run stuffing lineman. It was going away from that. So I was either moved to like a three technique eventually, right? Or completely change. I just didn't know that was even an option. Wow. So spent that year basically redshirting, learning offense, putting on a bunch of weight. So then turned around that next year to training camp. And by the time we get going, I'm the backup at tackle and guard or one of the backups. Still so still end up playing in, I don't remember the numbers, but I'm pretty sure I played in every game at some aspect, right? Either special teams or on offensive line, but played in at least eight to ten games on a guard or tackle. And at that point, no one had ever done that, right? That kind of a transition while you'd already been a starter in the league was just crazy. Yeah. And then to stack on top of it the next year, we come out and I'm the backup for both tackles through camp. And about the second week of practice, like hey, I want to try something. I'm like, what's up? I want you to just we're gonna put together like a jumbo package, you're gonna play tight end. So you'll just report with your 78 number back then. I'm like, all right, fine. So we're doing this. We do this at the Bears preseason game. And they ran, they ended up running a ton that game. I'm like, that's fun. I could do that more. Don't think much about it. Well, then he keeps adding a little bit more in the rest of that preseason. So we get to the end of that preseason and it's cut day. Can I feel safe? Like I'm playing backup tackle. And it was the first year I think I felt safe, not worried about getting cut. And all of a sudden he goes, Hey, come here. I'm like, what's up? And he go get the 80s number. I'm like, excuse me? He's like, Yeah, we're gonna play you a lot of tight end. And so I'm like, seriously? I mean, I remember standing there on the field for like five minutes, like, you're serious? I'm like, who's gonna back up a tackle? If someone gets hurt, he's like, You still like how does that work? Like, I didn't even know that was a possible thing. You're like, Yeah, just like any other time, you just report, like you do as an eligible, and now you go ineligible. I'm like, all right, well, no one got hurt that year, but I still played in every game with tight end, started at five or six games at tight end, and just it just kind of kept progressing. And so I did that through that last season with the Cardinals, and then that staff got released. Wizen Hunt and them came in. It was like the first week of free agency. I met with them and they're like, we don't know what to do with you yet, right? And so we kind of need to see how pre-agency plays out. We'd love to have you back, I just don't know how. Yeah, and crazy or not, like the Raiders at the end of that week called me and they're like, Hey, we want you to basically come over to a tryout because we don't know what to play you, but we'd love to pick you up. I thought I was gonna be two months into the thing right before I figured out how to get picked up, and they ended up picking me up as a tight end at the time, and then over that next couple years they bounced me around all over the place and thus my body fall apart, and that was the end. Yeah. Six years, seven years, eight total, eight years. Yeah, eight years, and then you become an old man.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

You know, at the funny part, the right old age of what?

SPEAKER_01 33:32

You feel like 35 or six-year-old old man in those rock rooms back then, right? You're sitting there and all of a sudden you're the veteran guy everybody's coming to to know the ins and outs of different things. But yeah, you age quickly in that sport. You're I mean, unless you're Tom Brady or some of these QBs that play forever. Yeah, even those guys that play QB, I'm like, the level of competitiveness those guys have to have to want to keep riding like that is nuts. Absolutely nuts.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Well, that's I I I can only imagine. I mean, I wrestled in college, I didn't I didn't play football, but the level of commitment that you have to have, and there were plenty of days where I just questioned why am I even here? Yeah. Right. Because I mean wrestling, where are you gonna go? Olympics, basically. You know, or M MMA or something like that, but especially if you're really crazy. But you know, so I think about football, it's like, okay, you know, now you get to that level, it's like, okay, you've proven yourself, you've done well. Yep, you know, you've gotten a contract, you're coming to the end of your contract. Uh, what what kind of conversations do you have with yourself to to decide, okay, I'm done with this and I'm move on to the next phase of my life, or yeah, it got a lot easier for me just because of the injury situation, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:41

I mean, I had that year with the Cardinals where I had the plate put in my wrist, but that didn't really feel like I was sitting out because I was still around a lot and learning something new. But those last two years, the Raiders were brutal. I mean, I went in there, it was playing well through camp and they just blew out your ACL the first time. Yeah, had a phenomenal surgeon. So, I mean, I actually could have came back and played that year. They didn't have the rule they have now, or you can basically sit out for a while. So I had that whole year off. And then you turn around, they ask you to change positions again. And then just because your body can't do those same movements, like running towards someone like to pass rush or stop the run and then chase down people is way different than like pass protecting. Yeah. Right. So it's just such different movements for your body that eventually just kind of fell apart. And then that last one, I remember I was playing the last major injury when the wedge was still here, locked the guy up. This is home at the Raiders, I can't remember who we were playing against, and all of a sudden my shoulder dislocated through the front. Oh, geez. And I was like, and all of a sudden, like I let the guy go and he goes off and probably made the play. I don't remember. Go back to the sideline. And I'm about to tell you, my shoulder went out, and as soon as I stand up, it plunged back in. And my wife said she could see from the sideline with my son. She's like, that wasn't good. Well, the weird part when it goes out through the front, like it seemed fine, but it tore so much stuff I didn't realize it, that the next so many weeks, like your strength just diminished. So eventually, like, hey, we've got to release you.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Like, cause you need to go get this fixed. And so then going through that surgery process, like two years in a row, you remember sitting there and my wife who ends up being your nurse, by the time you go home when you're cleaning stuff out, she's like, What do you think? And I'm like, Yeah, that's how I don't know. Right. And so it was it was pretty easy. It was crazy the next year when right before training camp, like I get a call from the radio just wanting to know if I want to, my agent's like, hey, the registers want to know if you come back. Like, no. First off, I haven't even ran in four weeks, so I'd probably pass out.

SPEAKER_03 36:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Uh, I've not bench pressed anything in four months, right? And so it was just, yeah, that was not gonna be the phase. So it was a pretty easy decision for us to move on. How old were you when you got out? 30. 30, okay. Yeah. I say that really confidently, didn't I? Yeah, 30, 31, somewhere around there. What what happened? Did you have kids at that point? Yeah. So my son was two weeks old. Okay. Sorry, our son was two weeks old, our first game. We still got a picture. He looks like a little alien out here in this Arizona heat and little onesie. And then my set my daughter, my first daughter was born while we were out here with Cardinal. And then our our youngest was born my first season with the Raiders. And so then I was home for like her birth for like a month, went back out, and then the next time I got to see them is when they were coming to ride with me to go get my ACL repaired, which was a whole crazy. How crazy is that wife's showing up to a new place, doesn't know anything. She's got a three-month-old and trying to navigate a husband who's probably a bigger baby than the baby with an injury like this. So yeah, you ever met a guy with an injury?

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Especially doped up right out of surgery. Oh my God. Yeah. That's crazy. So, what happened after that? You got out of the NFL.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Yeah. So you get done playing. The funniest part is I remember early in the NFL career, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna get these first four or five years, and then I'm gonna kind of have a plan like what we're gonna do next. So you get going and you're like, all right, I didn't keep a job. So then you just I spent so much time training and studying because I wasn't the I mean, yes, I'm blessed with a lot of size, but there were guys way faster, stronger than I was, right? And so you're always just trying to keep a job so you didn't think about it then.

SPEAKER_04 38:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

And so then then you kind of get to that like six or seven year, and you're like, okay, I'm gonna get to 10. Start getting a little greedy, right? So then you get to that seventh year. Well, then all of a sudden that seventh year you get hurt, and you're like, okay, I'm gonna come back. I'm still gonna get to 10. Well, they get hurt again. And it's just it was one of those that people talk about this all the time, and I think the stat's still is similar, but I remember similar, but I remember when I was playing me, I would say that I think it was 78% of NFL guys are in financial distress or some other major life event within two years being done, is because contracts aren't guaranteed, right? And it and even when you get going six, seven, eight years, like you just don't realize how fast it's done. Yeah. Right. And so you get done, you're like, okay, now what? So with mine, it was easy. I had to go get fixed, right? So I spent that next the rest of that next however many months getting what was that show the shoulder fixed. And then over the next two or three years, I had to do a couple more surgeries. But I lasted about six months into retirement. I love that word, it sounds great. Like I had a choice to be done, yeah, and quit playing. But she retired and was like, okay, I'm not designed for retirement. What the heck am I gonna go do? Right. Also, I had three little kids and a wife to support, and I'm like, okay, I didn't I didn't make NFL money, like some of the stuff you see now that would just let on perpetuity, right? And so needed to figure out what I was gonna do next. And man, was it harder than I thought.

SPEAKER_03 39:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Right? You immediately are like, okay, which seems fun. I'm not gonna go back to chiropractic school at this point in time. I'm so far removed from all of that. Not to mention I've got a plate and six screws in my wrist and bunch in my shoulder. Like, probably shouldn't handle people's necks, right? And try to adjust people. It's probably not the break their head off and shoulder. Hey, let me put this back for you. And so then the kind of the the search began, right? And it was, I still tell people to this day, I think I'm still searching a little bit, right, to try to really just figure out where I need to lean in. But uh quickly I knew that I wanted to spend time with my family. Um, like I said, I had three little kids and a wife who had given up everything for me to chase a dream for eight years. And so I started kind of really thinking about okay, what do I enjoy doing? And because I didn't know what I was good at that point in time. I was good at running people over for a living, right? So now it was like, what's next? Gravitated to all the insurance guys, right? So my buddies to this day, some of my very best friends are Northwestern mutual guys. Like, those guys golf and travel all the time. Yeah, I want to golf and travel all the time. Looks awesome. Yeah, yeah. And so went into that career for a while. And I tell people, probably the best first step I could have taken. So all you guys that get done playing, I always say, like, if you weren't a business major, right, then go into something that forces you to go like learn and meet new people. Because that was the best thing from that, is that it forced me their internship pre-early employment program really, really kind of broke me out to go figure out what was out there. Because instantly you're meeting with business owners or people who've sold businesses, people in different lights, transitions, or whatever it was. Yeah. So you just got to learn an entire aspect of everything that's out there. And the good thing is coming from what I did before, everyone wanted to meet with me the first time. Usually not the second time.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Right. My my hit rate was really high for first meeting, really low for the second meeting. But it was, it really, really opened up kind of an opportunity to get out and meet a bunch of people and see what's out there. And so it really pulled me into an avenue where I'm like, okay, I like this business side. I don't know if I like the insurance side, right? Because I discovered that I get bored asking the same questions all the time. Yeah. Right. And wanted to learn more and kind of get out there. Amazing or not, was pulled in with a group of guys who were all what I viewed as like influential business early younger leaders. Okay. And we're like, you know what, we're going to go invest and buy companies and just do good stuff with what we can do, right? Good people, good intentions, wrong mix. Right. One of the more painful learning experiences through my business career that I still lean on a lot was we eventually like, hey, we all agreed. We we bought into this company back there. I had all the aspirations of knowing that this guy knew what he had done before and we were going to support him and build all these different things. And man, did we not do our homework before we bought into that one? Oh, wow. And so you just quickly start learning wow, conflict and team dynamics. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, oh my gosh, half this feels like freaking locker room right now. Some of these conversations and arguments. Now, we weren't talking about each other's paychecks in a locker room as much, right? But you're kind of seeing how people fit and what's going on. And I'm like, okay, as much as that time frame with those people didn't work out, in that process, I'm like, okay, I need to develop my own toolbox. Like, how do I do this? Yeah. And so that pulled me back to go get my MBA. And so went to the University of Illinois executive program because at that point, I'm like, I'm not going to go sit in five hours of class every day. That sounds terrible. And so they had an executive program where you had to have eight years of experience in your field to even get in. And I remember talking to the admin people and being like, I don't have experience in anything. They're like, whatever, you've got a level of experience no one else in this room has. Yeah. And it took a long time, even after that end of my career, to realize how much value my time in the NFL and that level of his success and the people you're around kind of molded and shaped kind of how I view and see things, right? So it made a big impact, right? And so that was the early years of kind of the bumpy trying to figure out next and kind of led me towards the path we are now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Because you when when you're making that transition or the decision to make the transition and and what you wanted to do and trying to figure out, you know, what am I going to do when I grow up type of thing? Oh, I use that all the time to just. I still were trying to figure out. And I'm still an insurance. I think we just had that conversation over there. We did. I I I can only imagine, you know, and and I'm going to equate this to military, not that I've ever served in the military, but having conversations with people who have where you eat, sleep, drink, think, talk at your and you and and almost uh regimentally told do this at this time and this at this time and this at this time and this at this time. Do you feel like when you when you got out of that when when you made the decision, okay, yep, I'm I'm done playing and I'm gonna go figure out And you and you said you're trying to figure out okay what I wanted to do in order to I can only imagine there must have been this feeling of like being lost in yeah people always say like it's your identity, but it's probably more than that.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

I don't know if it can be more than your identity, right? But it's like you spend so much of your time in the locker room with those people and so much time honing that craft. I mean, think about anyone else you know that's really successful in business, right? The grind and the time and the commitment they put into that, it's become their identity too, right? But hopefully they've had an exit and they've moved on and done the next. Like that NFL grind to get to that point is it's it's work, right? I think that the NFL does a good job now of trying to set up programs to prepare people for transition. I mean, I leaned into a bunch of different things, like helping pay for your MBA and like identity kind of profile assessments they'll put you through. The one I did with them wasn't very helpful, but that's fine. But still they're yeah, they have the good intentions of doing it, right? And like different programs. No, that was the giant's assessment back then. It's like two hours of like, do you want to be a dog or a cat? Weird things like that. But sorry. But if you go to man, you don't need to lose my train of eye. Sorry. Yeah, PTSD from sitting through those assessments at the combine. We were talking about musician, transition trying to figure out what you want to do, the NFL helping you. Oh, yeah. So the NFL does a good job of helping you, but there's still just this element that unless you're the really, really top starter and your job's really not in jeopardy, like you're still not gonna let up, but you can carve out a little time to go do other stuff. I mean, I will tell you most of the guys like me who were every year battling for a roster spot, let alone a starting spot, like to even think about taking the time to go learn about real estate just seemed impossible. Right. So the guys I knew two other guys who did it, I'm like, you're phenomenal. How did you go do this? And so to have that understanding, which is tough. So I'm assuming now it's still the same thing. Like these guys who are kind of in the grind of now, but it does, it makes that next step really complicated. And then it is like as much as I hate to compare the NFL to people who serve, because like the what they give up for our country is substantially more different than us to go run into people for a living. Yeah, it is the closest correlation. And so I got to meet a guy probably about six months ago, really, really interesting dude. He did like ordinance disposal. I'm like, does that what I think it sounds like? And he's like, Yep. I'm like, I don't really need to ask questions. That's terrifying, right? But he's the one who kept making the comparisons. I'm like, you need to stop comparing to what I did to you. He's like, no, but if we talk about the path that we've had to figure out kind of what's next in your life, it's that same kind of a transition of understanding and kind of rediscovery.

SPEAKER_03 46:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:43

But again, I don't know if everybody gets this, but like I was really, really blessed with having people kind of step in and and and mentor me. Like I've told you, Northwestern Mutual, like Brian McCourse, still one of my good buddies, and he was just one of those guys who'd always be like, dude, just come do this for a while, right? As much as Northwestern Mutual wasn't my path, like the steps it led me on were hugely valuable. And then he and Kelly and Casey and I become very, very good friends over the years, and that relationship meant a month a lot, right? And then the next transition is I had another buddy, same group pulled in a different way, was Tim Allen, not the guy from the TV show, different guy. And he's the one who's like, dude, you need to go get your MBA. Like you look at things differently, you understand business, you just need the tools. Yeah. And so he's the one that kept pushing me to go do that. And then once I went and did that, he was trying to pull me, like, okay, go learn about this and go see this, and just really kind of helped hone this desire to go explore different things. Yeah. Right. And then my wife, through all of it, has been like, here, learn this. Ooh, this is something you'd be interested in, right? So I just I've constantly had people lean into me that kind of helped kind of guide different ways. And I'm probably skipping tons of people along that path, but it's it's one thing that I know it means a lot to me to try to do to others because like when you can find that person that can really connect and help you in that discovery process, the the value is exponential. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

Let's talk about where you are today. What what what do you do? CXO, right? Yeah. I mean, kind of so the easiest way, and man, I'm sorry if I'm telling too many stories.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Oh, you're good. Uh stories, stories are great. Well, people consistently ask, like, how'd you get into this from playing in the NFL? So I made the comment. We went through those transitions when I first got done, and then I still just got more curious, right? That in the combination, once I got done with my NBA, I discovered the winters in Illinois. I love the people in Illinois. The winters in Illinois are not good. And so I'm like, I can't do this anymore. So Casey and I can't decide to come back out here. And in that process, I'm like, all right, I'm just gonna go learn what's out there. I've never taken a business hat. So good thing is the University of Illinois has a massive network of very successful business people who want to lean into others. So they started introducing me a ton of people. So I came out and met with a bunch of people from that, different people I met through the Cardinals and just different organizations over the years, and just started re-networking out here. And then ironically enough, one of my teammates from college is like, Hey, why don't you come learn cybersecurity? I'm like, I know nothing about cybersecurity. He's like, perfect. And so what I learned in going through that, I'm like, wow, learning new complex business models and new things is what I just love doing it. Right. And so dove into that headfirst, worked in that for a while. And then I just kept finding myself getting pulled into different areas, if it was manufacturing or fundraising or medical devices or financial services, like I started getting all this knowledge from all these areas and different things of sales or operations, and I'm gonna say finance, very low-level finance and kind of understanding how business models work. And and so it was probably like oh, clear path to what's going on. And then finally I just had that settling moment where I'm like, oh, that's why. Right? You just have this knowledge across so many different industries and places. Like, how do you use this to help more people? Yeah. And so then about that time, a friend of mine out here reached out and he's like, Hey, I know you do a bunch of consulting. I just need help. Like, my team is about to leave, and I've not been involved for five years. I'm like, What do you mean your team? My top two people are about are gonna walk out the door next week. I'm like, all right, can you keep there till Monday? So I went over there, met with him and his team. We got a ready to stick around, started to evaluate what's going on, and over the next so many years, really just kind of stepped into like a fractional COO type role.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

And then next thing you know, another group pulled me into the same, and another group pulled me into the same. And so at that point in time, I was managing like three different groups. And I was like, this is fun. Yeah. How do I do more of this? And then we have a business partner or a client of this tool called Culture Index, which I talked about the other day. And I talked to my culture index advisor, and I'm like, how do I scale this? Like, what am I missing? Like, I need some of my own medicine here to kind of talk through this. Introduced me to my business partner, Tim. Tim and I met and we hit it off right away. Like he was doing a lot of similar things in other groups, and so we spent the next year kind of working on the same projects together to kind of start developing our own model. And and so ThriveShix was born out of that and it's gone through a couple iterations. No, we do not have a website yet. I hope Tim's listening to this, I give him a hard time because that's his working on right now. The last two years. He's gonna be like, dang it, you called me out on air. It's brutal. No, but it if we have thousands of listeners having us hard. We would have, if we would have launched this in December, January, we played on it, it would have been totally different. And so, even like what we deal with our clients, which I'll explain here a little bit, as we're walking through this journey and kind of evaluating our own model and how we're doing the clients, we're like, this isn't gonna work. And so we had to kind of come to the moment of like, all right, do we completely pivot now or do we do like small shifts along the way? And along with kind of how some of our team members were working and how we're our client engagements were going, we're like, we're just gonna rip the band-aid off. And so probably three or four months ago, I think I mentioned this to you, we just ripped the band-aid off and completely changed how we're doing it and how we're delivering it. And so I I give him a hard time, but if we would have launched it, he would just have to redo it. Right. And so now what we focus on is we help leaders take the next step. Okay. Right? I will tell you, we get into introduced to probably three types of leaders right now. Okay. One of them is envision the leader who's had an idea, started a business, got up and running, and they're sitting at that, you know, I don't know, two, three, four, five million dollar range, and they're like, okay, if it's business, like I don't even know what to do next. Like they've grown it, they're sitting there and they're kind of looking around, like, what the heck is the next step? Right. And so a lot of those groups will go to EO or some of those different areas and they get those resources, right? If not, like we can step in and kind of help design the business model and the structure and help put team members around you to go scale it. The next one is business owners like, hey, I've been at 10 million for like three or four years in a row. I've got a team, everybody's fine, but like we just can't throw next, right? Like a lot of things could be wrong with that one. That could be business model, people, wrong seats, whatever it is, right? But we can go and help you figure out the next steps to kind of take it to the next step there, right? Okay. The third one is that owner who has reached a point in his career where he's like, all right, I've either read the book Traction, which is EOS, right? So anybody here in this would know like the visionary, yep, or they're in vistage or YPO, well, probably not YPO, EO or some of these different groups, and they're like, all right, I want to be this visionary leader, but it makes no sense how I can do this. This business is designed around me, right? That we can kind of help take those steps to kind of put this right structure and people in place to kind of help you scale past that, right? So all of those, although they sound different, almost it's almost always the same problem, right? It's the right structure of people in place to really help you figure out how to scale, but then it's also putting in place the right accountability so you take the steps towards it. I think that's what a lot of the different programs miss now is like an accountability to make those steps happen.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Yeah. And so what's like a timeline you would be working with a client like that? I mean, is it a month, six months, seven years? Yeah, it varies, right?

SPEAKER_01 53:40

It it depends on how messy it gets, right? When we first started doing this, we would work with clients who in engagements that wrap like 50 or 20 grand a month, right? And we would be in there non-breaking stuff, like, okay, that's not scalable and it doesn't help them. The more we were pulled into the weeds, the less we were able to help move the needle and actually drive growth through the company, right? And so we changed that to where we now don't charge anything close to that, right? But it also depends on do we how deep do we have to get, right? Are we working with just the CEO? Are we working with a whole leadership team? Are we having to lean into operations? Are we having to lean into sales? And so it really varies on those aspects. How long it's gonna take.

SPEAKER_04 54:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

I will tell you, of all the engagements we have right now, we're in that 16 to or sorry, 12 to 18 month range, what engagement usually lasts. Some of these ones that we're saying now come in because we've changed it are closer to 12 below, right? Probably nine to twelve on the most optimal end. But then we have some engagements like as we get to a certain spot, we just kind of maintained a lighter touch, right? And that we're just not quite as in deep with each client.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Do you see situations where and I and I know it's we'll say relatively new, obviously you've been doing it for a little bit, but have you have you had situations yet where you've gone in and you said, okay, this is how we can fix things. And whoever the owner, CEO, or T leadership team is who's, you know. Oh, those are my favorite ones. Throws you the bird, says, get out the door.

SPEAKER_01 55:02

Well, because the hard I haven't had anybody throw me the bird. Okay. Had plenty of people disagree. Most of the time, these the people we work with know there's a solution. They just aren't understanding what the steps are to get there, right? And so between Tim and I and other resources that we can pull in, we've got so much experience that we can say, okay, this is like this scenario. Like if we keep going down this path, this is what happened and this is why. And you can kind of start showing those aspects. Yep. I will tell you that's that's my favorite part is working with the owner. Like, what do you really want to happen? Okay. And then getting them to understand that there's probably going to be some hard steps to get there, right? Yeah. You might have to move out your operations person that's been involved with you for seven years, right? You might have to, the family-owned business ones are the most entertaining. Like you might have to move your cousin or your nephew to a different role, right? I will tell you, we are not a company that comes in and just tries to blow up your system, right? We are always going to try to find a place, especially when, especially in today's age, people understand the importance of culture, what's going on. We are 100% aware of the culture. I will tell you, and most of the clients that are most fun stories, we've gone in and they've been leadership teams of seven or nine or ten, right? And then we're like, okay, we're going to pair this down to like three, you're not big enough to have 10 people on your leadership team. We've had to go in and pair those things down and not by firing people, right? Just kind of moving them to different roles that they're actually probably happier in, right? And really kind of getting those people into their sweet spot is where we've been the most effective.

SPEAKER_00 56:29

Gotcha. Yeah. Do you have a favorite type of client?

SPEAKER_01 56:32

I will tell you this service-based companies or clients who have lots of things going on. Right. And so, as you could probably imagine from my previous career, right? I like chaos, right? And the and those companies that are, let's skip the service-based aspect. Service-based I like more because you can make more change in a service place because you're not having to deal with supply chain as much.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 56:55

Right. If you're dealing with a product that has a bunch of supply chain issues, I mean, I worked with one a number of years ago, really cool offering. We were starting to get some really good marketing, and then all of a sudden the chip thing happened everywhere in all the vehicles, and it just completely halted everything you could do, right? Yeah. And so you just can't influence that much. You can put the right things in place and help them, but you can influence the service space so much more. I say that, but we do have product-based companies as well. But the ones that are dealing with some kind of messy situation, right? Where if you go in and it's like the owner's just frustrated because the vision's not being built out correctly, like operations isn't keeping up, or this isn't happening, right? Because when you go into a situation where there's already chaos happening, it's a lot easier to see what's wrong. Right? Because it's people really kind of shine through what's going on when things are more chaotic. And so it's funny, we've got a couple different partners we're talking to. We're like, we'd really like to introduce you to this, but it's a hot mess. I'm like, please, why not? I'd love to go meet with those people and see if we can help. Yeah. The other one is just from doing this long enough, those leaders that are in that chaos could really use someone to bounce something off of.

SPEAKER_00 57:59

Yeah. But I I can only imagine, you know, you get you get at the position, and obviously my business isn't that big, but as a business owner, you know, you're you're the one stuck dealing with all the stuff. Yeah, you know, CEO, same thing. I mean, you're you're dealing with all the stuff. You're answering whether you're answering to a board of directors or or to a silent owner or whatever it is. Right. But to be able to have somebody that that can come in and talk to you about things that are I don't know that nobody else understands. I think people probably understand it, but to be able to have somebody who's kind of been there done that and go, Well, have you thought about this? Or, you know, whatever, make tweaks.

SPEAKER_01 58:34

Well, just even I mean, uh my mode is always I'm gonna ask a lot of questions early. Right. And as you keep asking those questions, usually I feel like a lot of the people I work with start to kind of see it themselves. Right? Uh in the most easy way to put it is if if the owner gets it and feels like they've been part of the uh decision-making process, it's so much easier to move the needle. It's the same with the leadership team, right? If the leadership team feels like they're involved and part of this decision-making process, they want to do more, right? And it's uh instead of the one where you've got the owner who's just basically uh has this vision and just wants to hold people accountable and you're skipping all the other steps in between.

SPEAKER_00 59:12

Yeah. Looking back on your life and career, where it is today. Yeah. If if you could go back to any point in your life and give yourself a piece of advice, what would that be? And what age was it?

SPEAKER_01 59:27

The first one that pops into my head is the one I keep beating over my head with my kids, and the and the only only one of them has taken it, and the oldest one's proven me wrong, so it's good. Is I would have being an athlete, I wish I would have gone in just with a business degree to start. I think that would have set me on a different trajectory once I got done playing. Right. And so I tell these college kids, like my friends whose kids are going to play sports, I'm like, hey, if you don't know, if you're undecided right now, or if you don't have a passion somewhere else, start with a business degree. Yeah. Right? That's the easiest one. The other one I think is once I got done, I think, especially once we moved back out here, and I was just like, good lord, this is going nowhere, right? Is to still be able to slow down, be like, hey, this is just part of it, right? Like there is a definite journey to figuring out what you're supposed to be doing. And I and I still, I mean, I I feel like I've got to figure it out a little bit now. But I had a coach tell me once, he's like, as soon as you feel like you've arrived, then you're probably done. Right. And so I'm in that world where I'm like, okay, you know what? Always be learning, always be connecting, always be meeting new people, finding out new things. Yeah. I mean, my favorite ones are when I come home after meeting someone new, and I'll I'll go to my wife, I'm like, Casey, I don't know if people do this for a living, but it totally makes sense. I guess they got to get there somewhere. Yeah. Like those are my favorite when you meet someone like that. Yeah, that is fascinating to think about that as a as a so on career.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:43

That's one of the one of the things I love about doing commercial insurance is oh yeah, figuring out. I mean, and these conversations as well, but figuring out, you know, what drove you down this path and what got you to this point where you just decided one day that's what you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:56

You know, but for you, you've got to be like, how do I insure that?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:59

Well, no shit. I I do that. I I get those calls. Hey, I'm thinking about, and and I won't say the one that's comes to my mind right now because I I doubt that he would actually ever listen to this, but I'm I'm dealing with one right now that you know you get the I'd been thinking about doing this. Like, okay, that's pretty cool. And and then we're gonna add in this service and this service and this service. And and I'm like, okay, look, you gotta pick a lane, yeah, stay in the lane, get the truck going, get it up to speed, and then once you get it to speed, let it go for a while, let it run for a little while. Then you can think about adding services, you know. It's like you get the I'm I'm a painting contractor, and then a few months later, we just bought a dump truck, and you're like, Well, you're a painting contractor, what's a dump truck have to do with all you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:47

I've seen a couple of these when they design a totally different model to manage that, different, yeah, right? But when they start blending the different things, you're kind of like, Oh, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:54

Yeah, yeah. It's like can we just keep focused? It it it's so interesting you bring up the business aspect of things. When I went to school and we had to declare a major, yeah. My first major I declared was business. Okay. I took an accounting class and I'm like, nope, I'm done, done with this. And then went to music, and then I was done with music, which was bad. But I actually graduated kinesiology, philosophy, physiology. There you go. So same thing. It's like, but I I was looking at and I would thought, well, I'll just be a PE teacher and a coach, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:29

Because it's well, and what everybody told me I should do, you know. Yeah, mine, like I said, it was the chiropractor career, is what I was planning on. But I will tell you, it helped me a lot through my playing career when like you were dealing with different injuries or I was going through training, but it made the biggest difference when I was going from playing D-line to O-line and what I had to do to change my diet. I had really good trainers and stuff, but like I'm like, I get um, it makes sense because I knew those different things from that time frame. So it helped. That's cool. It probably helped annoy the crap out of my kids through their sports careers and being like, it's probably this from yeah, this isn't ChatGPT or website.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:04

This is something I actually know. This is yeah, this is we're we're not uh don't get me started on it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:10

Anyways, I do still remember how to tape ankles. You know what I do too? That's because I had mine taped so many more times that I think more than having to tape people's ankles.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:19

See, and I was taping, I think well, I taped I probably taped more than I got taped. I got taped a lot in high school. Oh my time close because you'd be taped for every practice. Yes, you know in well, no, we didn't. But I taped guys. Yeah. And in wrestling, we didn't get taped. Might your daughter being like, How do you remember how to do this?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:39

I'm like, I watched this happen thousands. Oh, you could probably do it with your eyes closed. Yeah. I'm like, and you have a little bit more of a sprain. Can I get some mole skin? Is that still a thing? Right? Where it's like the stronger stuff?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:49

Yeah. We didn't even use the uh what was the wrap that you put on before the pre-wrap? Yeah, pre-wrap. Did you shave your ankles with those guys? Yeah. We had to. They wouldn't use our school, didn't have pre-wrap, so we had to run off the rails now. Sorry. We had to shave our ankle things. Yeah, it's funny. All right, you're standing in a room. Okay. 30 seconds to motivate the crowd. What do you say? Just any crowd? Let's say a group of seniors in high school. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:13

Man, I am uh since I've lived it now, I am the embrace the journey guy. I mean, it is. You asked that question a minute ago. Like, what would I have done differently? I was the guy that never wanted to travel or go to Europe or do things. And now I look back and I'm like, okay, we need to do more of that.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:28

To where now, since we're all the other end, we just became empty nesters. It's the same thing. But it is embrace the journey. And but I tell my kids, I'm like, if you love what you're doing, right, then it's really then you can have the impact you're gonna have. Yeah. My son, he just got into with his A and P certification, working on jets and helicopters and got a job working for a private jet company. It's awesome. And he is working crazy hours, but he comes back so excited about things he's doing and what's going on. I'm like, okay, gotta win on that one. That's right. And so with the others, it's you know, it's the same thing. Like, what do you really want to do? What do you care about? And and just start leaning into that one as much as you can.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:03

Very cool. What's your wife do? She's an artist. Oh, really? Yeah. So she does abstract oil painting. Okay. And then she also mentors and coaches other artists as well. Really? Yeah. And they actually just roped her in. And last time she actually is coaching the mentors in this program. She, the group that she trained with for years, Milan Art Institute. I'll give them a free plug, guys. They're originally from out here and they moved on to like this massive online program of platform. And so uh yeah, pretty cool experience. That is awesome. Yeah. So she does abstract oil painting and then the coaching. And now we're trying to figure out traveling, is what we're trying to figure out. She has a studio in the house that's like filled with paint. She does have a studio. It is starting to outgrow the studio. We're gonna show her how to expand that bad boy. But I keep telling her we have a bunch of empty rooms now. Yeah. Kids moving up just cool, you can start moving in there. Uh clean out the room. Next time they get home, you're like, what? Yeah. But yes, there is there's plenty of paint and artwork throughout that the studio. That's awesome. Yeah. So what's next for Fred on the agenda? What what do you got going? We're trying to figure out the next step to really have the impact we want to have with Rive CXO. I mean that most of our engagements now are more on the consulting side. Tim, my business partner, his passion is around community and coaching. Okay. And so the reason the website launch is taking longer, I guess that's another digital because I want to know what I said. Is is because we're trying to figure out how to make that reach happen faster, right? And kind of developing like a community platform where people can share more, right? So we're just we're we're trying to figure out kind of the steps to evolve to something like that. Now you're not just in Arizona, right? You're across the country. Yes. I'm trying to figure out how far. We've had clients in Atlanta and Florida. I've got a prospect in Boston. I'm working to try to get closed right now. It could also be a partner, pretty neat company up there. Minnesota, California. I mean, yeah, pretty much that's a good thing that happened with COVID is people got a lot more receptive to doing things online. Yeah. So we can do so many different meetings and be more effective online. But I should like to travel and go meet some of these folks and see where they're at as well. Get out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:07

Yeah. Very cool. Well, hey, I really appreciate having you on. No, this has been fun. Conversation. Yeah. Anything I should ask you that I didn't ask that I need to know. I mean, you're kind of a celebrity.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:20

This is where I was afraid we'd go down. No, this has been fun, right? I mean, I'm I'm new to the group that we're part of here. Kind of exit explore that, so this has been fun to get to know you and kind of sit here a little bit more as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:31

Well, then it's good to get your story out.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:33

We'll get it out, you know, and and see it. I just I I did not realize that I was following the youper when I saw this. And so I'm like, oh, am I coming out right after him? Gosh dang it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

You're you're you're coming out pretty quick after that. So the dude. I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:48

I I saw how you titled that one. I was like, oh, that was a good one.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:52

I couldn't figure out, you know, everybody else is like, this is their job title. What do they do? What's their business? And like youper, he's just kind of the dude. That's awesome. Well, hey, I got you a gift. Because everybody gets a gift. Nice. So for coming on, I really appreciate it. I've had a good time getting to know you a little bit better. I mean, we've had a couple conversations, but yeah. We'll have opening it on air here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Open it up. I mean, I think it only gives it justice, but it is Ben. Oh, nice. I like it. Yeah. So with a little tumbler. Those are good. Well done, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:24

Yeah, thank you. Nice. You know, like I said, cocktail. Hopefully I later in the week. Like trying trying to uh be a little better this week.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:31

Do it every other night. But anyway, so hey, thank you very much. Oh, thanks.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:36

This has been great. Really appreciate it. Awesome. This is Fred Wakefield, and I went above and beyond.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:30

We truly thrive.