Geocivics, Redistricting, and Gerrymandering

A map can look clean and still be unfair, and a “weird” map can exist for reasons most people never learn. That’s why we sit down with Dr. Rebecca Theobald, an associate research professor at the University of Colorado Colorado Springs, to unpack geocivics and the real mechanics behind redistricting and gerrymandering. We walk through what geocivics looks like in practice: learning the US Census and apportionment, understanding state rules, debating criteria, and then using free online mapping tools to draw and defend your own legislative district map.

We also tackle one of the most common misunderstandings in civics: districts represent people, not land. That’s how you can end up with a massive rural congressional district next to tiny urban districts without anyone getting “extra” representation. From there, we get concrete about the principles map drawers juggle, including equal population, contiguity, compactness, protecting minority voters, keeping counties and cities intact, and recognizing communities of interest. We talk about why independent redistricting commissions matter, what “fair representation” can mean in different communities, and how court decisions shape what challenges are possible.

Then we zoom out to the stakes: the decennial census, the fixed 435 House seats, shifting electoral votes, and how undercounts can change representation for a decade. If you teach civics, history, or geography, we also point to practical resources including the GeoCivics project and Dave’s Redistricting App so students can compare maps built for different goals and see the tradeoffs for themselves.

If this helped you see district lines differently, subscribe, share the episode with a friend, and leave a review so more people can learn how maps shape democracy.

GeoCivics Resources

Redistricting Criteria

Check Out the Civic Literacy Curriculum!

School of Civic and Economic Thought and Leadership

Center for American Civics

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:46

Welcome back to Civics in a year. I am really excited today. If you're in Arizona, I think you've heard the term geocivics. But for a lot of our listeners, you might have never heard of this term geocivics. And I am really excited to have Rebecca Theobald with us today to have this conversation about geocivics and about gerrymandering, which has kind of been a topic of conversation as of late. So, Dr. Theobald, thank you so much for being here. Can you introduce yourself for our listeners?

SPEAKER_00 1:18

I'm Rebecca Theobald, an associate research professor in the Department of Geography and Environmental Studies at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Thank you again so much for being with us. So, can I

What Geocivics Teaches Students

SPEAKER_01 1:32

ask first, how do you define geocivics in practice?

SPEAKER_00 1:37

It's really a series of interactive approaches that provide background to prepare students to draw a legislative district map. So we make sure that students understand the U.S. Census and the process for apportionment and redistricting. They need to know the rules in their state or their community. They then discuss the key criteria for drawing the electoral districts. This, to me, is the most important aspect of this process. And you need to be able to explain your community and understand the different uh interests that your the members of your community have. Then you get to the key part, which is creating your own congressional state legislative or local districts using free online mapping tools. You should also be prepared to critique existing maps and explain the map that you made and share your knowledge. So that's really kind of the arc of geocivics. And the focus is really on these understanding these tools for electoral redistricting. Well, we elect representatives geographically. And this really goes back to the founding. We need to understand the Connecticut compromise. And I'm really excited to see how many different pieces of understanding representation you have covered in this series. So that's really important for students to be able to understand the foundational issues related to representation. And uh John Adams in 1776, when talking about forming government, uh, he was talking about how you decide how many people will vote for or elect or appoint

Representation Starts With Geography

SPEAKER_00 3:41

a few people to make the laws. And his question was: by what rules shall you choose your representatives? You have to agree upon the number and qualifications of persons who shall have the benefit of choosing, or you annex this privilege to the inhabitants of a certain extent of ground. And that's what we decided to do early on in the United States. We decided that we would have everyone, well, everyone over time of a certain age to participate in this process. And this is very different than what we had, say, in Virginia, when we uh were deciding who was able to participate in that process. You had to be male, white, own property, and you had to be a member of the Anglican church. So those kinds of qualifications disappeared over time, those restrictions, and it uh made more sense to uh uh give this privilege to the inhabitants of a certain extent of ground. And then Adams goes on to talk about how it's really important that this representative assembly should be, quote, in miniature and exact portrait of the people at large. It should think, feel, reason, and act like them. So that also tells us how important it is to make sure that we are carefully drawing these district lines. And the challenge for understanding the geographic aspects of this is that you've got different ways to draw a map.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

So, how then do we take those ideas and create these maps for districts?

SPEAKER_00 5:35

So we really want to bring geographic reasoning to this discussion because that enables participants to undertake spatial analysis to aid in the personal and societal decision making and the problem solving by examining the patterns that are displayed in maps generally. And we also have to acknowledge that geospatial technology has really changed how this is done over time. So there are traditional redistricting principles that most cartographers need to take into account when they are drawing maps. And those include that you have to strive for equal population, avoid disenfranchising minorities, make sure all parts of a district are touching each other, analyze whether a district appears to be compact geometrically, keep political subdivisions intact, describe important communities that have legislative interests, maintain the core of the district, acknowledge where current office holders reside, and address the political affiliations of

The Rules That Shape Districts

SPEAKER_00 6:50

the residents. And how you prioritize this criteria leads to very different maps.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

I never thought about the they have to be touching, because when I look at like congressional district maps, like for the state of Arizona, there are some like really big districts, but those are very rural areas. And like in Phoenix, right, there's a ton of districts in there because that's where a big portion of the population is. And every state gets to make the decision on how they draw their districts. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 7:26

That is correct. State legislatures have the responsibility for drawing the district lines for both their own districts as well as for congressional districts. Now, independent commissions have been found to be constitutional. So several states do have what are actually independent commissions as opposed to what they call commissions that are politically appointed. Those are not usually considered independent commissions. And those have been shown to have much more fair representation. But you might ask, what is fair representation? How do we how, you know, what constitutes a fairly drawn legislative district? And so there are just many diverse opinions about, you know, certainly the founding documents of the government, which then leads to different perspectives about how to collect and distribute resources, which is the main work of the legislature, and also applies to what constitutes a fairly drawn district. So when the people consider themselves fairly represented, they're much more inclined to engage with government at multiple levels.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

You mentioned the Supreme Court case, and I was 90% sure it was Arizona. And I was like, I need to make sure I link that.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

So one of the interesting pieces in your in the existing podcasts is right that you're addressing the Connecticut Compromise, you're addressing Baker v. Carr. That's very important to discuss one person, one vote. You also mentioned earlier there are challenges related to understanding the difference between representation of area and representation of people. So we need to remember that early on, the decision was made for the Senate to represent the states, two senators representing an area, each state. And then the House of Representatives represents the population, with each state uh being sure to have at least

People Versus Area On The Map

SPEAKER_00 9:41

one member in the House of Representatives. But that becomes really confusing when you look at a map and you see a very large area being represented by one individual. That is a very important concept that students need to understand that we are representing area, we are representing people, not area.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

So when I look at the Arizona map, like I said, there is a huge congressional district, but it's because it is rural area. There are not a lot of people who live there. So it looks like, oh my gosh, this person has so much. So can I ask then, how does that work? Because when I again I'm looking at specifically Congressional District 2 in Arizona, which basically goes all the way up in Page in the northern part of Arizona, kind of down through Penell County, almost to Tucson. Like it is a huge chunk. And those areas, those places are so different. So how do we, I mean, or how do commissions, I guess, look at that? Because you're talking about these districts represent the amount of people, but how does that work when the places are so different when you have these big districts?

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Well, so redistricting, right, involves the creation of maps. And you've got to then understand the history, the geography, and the economy of the region that is undergoing redistricting. So that's why we start with understanding the census with the GeoCivics project. And at that point, you really want to then also understand the guidelines for that your area has set out for dividing up the geographic area. And those will vary, although at this point, one person, one vote, equal population is still required at the congressional level. That varies at the state and local level. So there can be more variance in city council districts, for instance, or county commissions or parish councils or state legislatures. So that's those, that's why the rules are really important to understand. But if population distribution were the only important factor related to electoral districts, then this would be a math problem, right? Each district in a state would have an equal number of people divided into neat polygons with a representative for each. Yet it is not possible to divide a state into electoral districts mathematically because people are not distributed equally across the landscape. And nor is it sensible to ignore features such as mountains or rivers. So, in addition to practical and physical considerations, there are questions of representing people from different communities of interest. So, for instance, the urban-rural divide, which is prevalent in many communities, uh many states, is

Communities Of Interest And Gerrymandering

SPEAKER_00 12:53

not a new one, nor is, for instance, the lack of uh women representatives in proportion to their numbers. So any demographic characteristic might be considered a point of discussion to be decided uh when determining how to draw districts. And we have to remember, too, that in representative government, whoever is in power gets to make the decisions. And once people are in power, they really want to remain in control.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

So if I am an educator and I'm, you know, I'm teaching this in my classroom, and you brought up women, right? Because when we look at like a population of a district, how do we look at and explain to students, you know, because a lot of times we hear of like women are 50% or more than 50% of the population, but they're not, you know, of the House and the Senate or minority districts? Because I think that, you know, we are recording this on May 5th, 2026. And there is a lot going on with redistricting politically in our nation. So how do we kind of square that?

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Right. So uh women are are certainly over time have increased their percentages at various levels. And we are not taking the tax as being done in some European countries, for instance, that are saying you must have a certain number of women on your slate. So that's that's not the direction we're taking. But right now, of course, we really are being challenged regarding minority voters. And a question about whether minority voters have less opportunity than other members of the electorate to participate in the political process and elect their preferred candidate of choice has recently been decided by the Supreme Court in Louisiana v. Calais. And what they said is they do not have any more difficulty electing individuals of their choice. So this special protection is really being removed. So we then have to assess as a community what is, again, what is a fair district? And it really goes back to these fundamental principles and thinking about the number, politics, shape, geography, race, sociology, all of that plays into how you draw a line. And there are also a number of other considerations not included in these principles, such as proportionality, competitiveness, responsiveness, stability, and having a voice for the marginalized. And what we have determined in the United States is that race can be an effective proxy for party preference, and vice versa. So this also really elicits the need for new tools to address partisan gerrymandering, which really has been decided by the court that they say, well, partisan gerrymandering, that is fine. But what cartographers know is that any shape constraints limit the power of the map drawer. And extreme gerrymandering usually requires eccentrically shaped districts. So we need to really prepare students and community members to be able to look at these maps and understand what the characteristics of the people residing in those communities are and how those maps are being divided. So, you know, this is not new. Early in the history of the American Republic, manipulation of voting district maps became a device where, quote, the majority party in a state legislature so plans the legislative districts that it is able to control the greatest possible number of them. And that's different than what we really wanted initially from John Adams' point of view, which was having a representative assembly.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

So we talk about, you know, the founding, and the term gerrymandering actually comes from a gentleman whose name is Elbridge Gary. So can you

Where The Word Gerrymander Came From

SPEAKER_01 17:29

talk a little bit about how he kind of he is the founder of this concept of gerrymandering, even though his last name is Gary. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

So we do not know exactly when uh the hard G turned to a soft G, but uh I I will say too that it is rather sad that Elbridge Gary is only remembered for this particular process because he also served as vice president of the United States and governor of Massachusetts. So and was a signer. So he he really had there was quite a bit more to Elbridge Gary than than this decision that he made, though he agreed to minimize Federalist votes by stringing together a district that a cartoonist uh transformed into a salamander. So this was in Massachusetts in 1812. So that's when gerrymander entered the political lexicon. In 1812, only 11 Federalist legislators were elected in Massachusetts to 29 Republicans, although the Federalists got 51,766 popular votes and the Republicans 50,164. So this really looked like cheating to most voters. So it turned out in 1813 the original gerrymander was repealed. But it again, people saw this, they use it all the time as really a shorthand and do not necessarily understand that redistricting is not equal to gerrymandering. And that's something I think that's very important to help students understand is that redistricting is a very legitimate process and needs to be undertaken thoughtfully. But basically, the gerrymander was used as a gadget to concentrate the strength of the opposition party in as few districts as possible, creating many inequities in representation, as well as some really weird-looking districts. So this there are many ways to talk about gerrymandering. And I regret that we now use it as kind of a shorthand for just any poorly drawn districts.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

And that's interesting because redistricting has to happen. Again, I'm looking at my state of Arizona. Like Arizona has changed quite a bit since I've moved here. And so redistricting is necessary. When does redistricting happen then? Is it always after a census?

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Yes, redistricting traditionally happens after the decennial census. The first one was in 1790. And who should how many people should represent them. And up until 1911, we actually conveniently added more representatives to the United States House of Representatives

Census And The 435 Seat Limit

SPEAKER_00 20:48

until they really arbitrarily just decided to stop up until 1911. Whenever a new state was added, new representatives were added to the United States House of Representatives. But then they decided really rather arbitrarily to just stop adding uh numbers of representatives and stopped at 435. So at that time, the whole apportionment process became very complicated, very mathematical. There are excellent descriptions of how this works from the U.S. Census. And bottom line, you have to decide 435 members in the House of Representatives. All states receive at least one seat. And then after those 50 seats have been distributed, which other states get additional representatives and then how many? And this is why the census is so important, is because you as a state could lose out on an additional representative simply because you had an undercount in the census.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

And that affects electoral votes when we're talking about voting for president. Because once they they do that, I mean electoral votes, because again, I'm talking about my home state of Arizona. I know that we've gained electoral votes steadily because our population has increased. So after, you know, the census, it's we tend to get more, but they shift from other places. So it's not like you said, there are 435 voting members of Congress. That that hasn't changed. So if we if a state gains, it means another state loses. So this sounds like a mathematical nightmare. And all honestly, like a geographic nightmare because the population is transient. Like you said, you know, we're looking at mountains and rivers and lakes and looking at places versus people. Like this feels very complicated. And I feel like this question is obvious, but I'm still going to ask it. Why does this topic matter for our students today? Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

So why does this topic matter for our students? First, in many places across the world, this very complicated process, which has to uh incorporate mathematical, political, and geographical concerns, is done by an independent commission that is not political, that has experts in all of these fields. The United States is exceptional in that it involves bipartisan members of the state

Why Students Need Redistricting Literacy

SPEAKER_00 23:49

legislature in making these decisions. So unfortunately, students must pay attention to this because they will have to go forward and pay attention to how the districts are being drawn. In other places in the world, it matters less. And frankly, then you don't have to spend your time as the multiple numbers of people who are uh working toward good governance do in fair districts, PA, or the Wisconsin Fair Maps, or any of these other groups across the country that are really focused on making sure representation is fair so that everybody can have a voice. So a cartographer really has to take into account multiple factors when drawing these congressional districts. And that's what I want students to be prepared to do. We actually have a student in Alabama, a college student, who proposed a map and it was accepted by the state Supreme Court for his state senate. Really? This is absolutely this is possible. Oh and also by drawing a map, you understand much more succinctly how difficult it is to draw these maps, and you have a lot more compassion, I hope, for the people who are uh working to do this. And of course, it really used to be that you couldn't do this because geospatial technology uh was not available. You used to draw maps by hand. And then when geospatial technology came along, kind of in the late 90s, early 2000s, well, the people who understood how to manage the geospatial technology tools would secret those away in buildings that not everybody else could have access to, and they would draw the lines to say, okay, so here's your district, and I'll trade you these community for that community to make sure that you get elected. So that's not really very fair, and it really only provides the tools for the people who understand how geospatial technology works. So this really is just as with anything else, the people who have the power then also have the power to make sure that they remain uh in charge. So by looking at all of the criteria and understanding, really kind of the first thing you're doing is saying, how do we get equal population districts? Which is again how we get disparate districts where in urban areas the districts are geographically very small, whereas in rural districts where the population is more dispersed, those areas are much larger. And that is the kind of fundamental understanding that students need to have. But then they start to divide their communities in with these different criteria, and then they have to decide what they're going to prioritize. Are they going to prioritize a competitive district so that equal numbers of Republicans and Democrats, more or less, are in these communities, and so that there might be the possibility of turnover over time? So that would require your drawing districts that might divide individuals who reside in that district. So instead of keeping a rural community together, you might divide that rural community. Is that something that you want to take some heat for? But that will give you a competitive district. Other communities want to make sure that they are prioritizing keeping their incumbent, for instance, and and not dividing or drawing out uh somebody who uh should be in that district because that's that's where they have traditionally represented. So all of those criteria make a difference in terms of where you draw the lines. My biggest concern is that we are not discussing that. We don't ever talk about anything besides the partisan aspects of drawing district lines. By we, I mean primarily the news media. And so it becomes our responsibility as educators to ensure that students are prepared to ask harder questions than what we are having today. So this is really where I want to focus the students is looking at the real data in their communities and to understand the tools that they can use to do this work. And really guiding students in the understanding of the value and the necessity of compromise, because you cannot have everything that you want in a map. It's simply impossible. And so, therefore, you are going to have to say, I'm giving up X to address Y, and these are the reasons. So it's an excellent opportunity, not simply to draw a map and have that as a product, but it also enables educators to guide their students in giving explanations. So that's really the opportunity here for a learning process, is making sure that the students understand how they can really describe what their thought process is and why it's important.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

And I do want listeners, if you're like, this all sounds really cool. I just don't know how to use it in my classroom. There is an incredible website that the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs has. I'm looking at it right now. There are articles, some written by Dr. Theobald. There is stuff for teachers, for students, community members. There's also state-specific things. And you can go on this. And I think the one thing I really love about this is oftentimes we think geography has to be this siloed thing from civics, from history, and it's not. All of these things marry so well together. And I don't think you evolved, is there anything else you want

Tools Teachers Can Use Today

SPEAKER_01 30:41

to make sure our listeners know? And I again I will link this website in our show notes because it is full of resources.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Well, I think students really are trying to make sense of a topic that is in the news. So this not only prepares them to understand the redistricting and representation and apportionment process in a government or civics or history class, but it's really confusing to them when they are taught that districts are formed to represent the people living there. But then the statements that are made by our elected officials, our media, people in the media are saying about, you know, Texas deserves X number of representatives, or we want to elect more people who will support the Speaker of the House. We have to remember that the United States is not a parliamentary democracy. We are supposed to be a democratic republic. And that means that our representatives are supposed to be reflective of the people who are living in a particular geographic area. And students really uh over the last several months, they've they've really been concerned about the polarizing approaches to understanding the uh redistricting process. They don't want to, you know, avoid a naive presumption that only representatives of color could represent constituents of color in an effective fashion, but they also don't want to make the naive assumption that race does not matter and that we are now living in a post-racial US or that racism is no longer a thing. And one of the ways to address this is really to look at the different congressional maps and different state legislative maps that are available on Dave's Redistricting app. And Dave's redistricting site enables people to provide maps for their state that they have constructed. And those are exemplary maps. And they're not exemplary in the sense of, oh, this is the best map and the one that you should choose, but exemplary in terms of the criteria. So if you wanted to say we we want to make sure that we have the least amount of splitting of political jurisdictions, so we are going to avoid splitting cities or counties or school districts. This is the map that you would want to implement. If you wanted a competitive map, this map is for your state is the map that you should implement. If you wanted a map that was proportional based on recent uh political uh choices that the electorate has made, there's a map for that. And understanding how those maps are explaining the electorate and how then that electorate is moving people into office, that's really the connection between the geography, the cartography, and then the representative government.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Dr. Thamble, thank you so much. Again, you've given us such a wealth of information. And, you know, what I'm really taking from this is maps are not just something we look at. They are primary sources, they are part of everyday life and what we're doing. And, you know, you mentioned Baker versus Carr. The Arizona case was Arizona State Legislature versus Arizona Independent Redistricting Commission, because the legislature took this to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court said, like, no, re-like independent redistricting commissions are okay. They don't violate the elections clause of the US. So there's so much for teachers,

Key Takeaways And Arizona’s Case

SPEAKER_01 34:50

for students, even for lifelong learners to look at. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And listeners, again, I will put the geo-civic side on there, this stuff for teachers, students, community members, if you're a college instructor. There's just a wealth of information because I'm gonna say I don't know that the redistricting and gerrymandering conversation is gonna go away. I think we're gonna be talking about this for quite a while. So again, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

It was a pleasure. Thank you very much.