The Health Huns
The Messy Side of Health and Fitness!
Your favourite amateur athletes keeping it real, discussing the messy side of health and fitness
The Health Huns
EP.13 Breaking Down Sexism in Health and Fitness: From Lionesses to Lifting Weights
Sexism in the health and fitness industry creates significant barriers, particularly for women, manifesting in everything from marketing language to funding disparities and objectification in gym spaces. We explore how these systemic issues affect participation and achievement in fitness, and what changes are needed to create more inclusive environments.
• Fitness marketing uses dramatically different language for men ("beast mode," "dominate") versus women ("tone up," "slim down")
• Women athletes and those who train intensely are often unfairly labeled as having disordered behaviours
• Women's sports receive significantly less funding - female footballers earn 90% less than male counterparts
• Many female professional athletes must maintain full-time jobs alongside their sporting careers due to lack of financial support
• Women experience objectification in gym spaces, with fitness apparel designed to sexualise rather than support performance
• Female athletes are held to higher behavioural standards than males, facing harsher criticism for showing competitive aggression
• Solutions include better education for fitness professionals, stronger industry regulation, and redistribution of funding to women's sports
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Guys, I've got a confession. I'm back on the meat.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the Health Hands, the pod where we discuss the messy side of health and fitness.
Speaker 1:From gym fails to newfound communities.
Speaker 2:We're here to help you feel like less of a failure and find your place in the messy world of health and fitness.
Speaker 1:Okay, are we on Hello, hello, and welcome to episode 13 of the Health Hands. I'm lucky for some, that is what they say. Are we going to do a Halloween special this year? Yes, what should we do it on? Oh my, God. Spooky creepy fitness influencers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, that's a good idea. I can think of one straight off.
Speaker 1:Me too. I can think of many. Yeah, okay, right, amber, how has your week been?
Speaker 2:It's been pretty good. Actually, I'd say I had a pretty rubbish weekend. Well, um, I'd say I had a pretty rubbish weekend. Well, it was all right. I went to go to 5k. I actually ran 5k without stopping. That was good, um, but yeah, it's been. It's been all right. I'd say mine has been probably an 8 out of 10, actually an 8 out of 10 yeah, what about you?
Speaker 1:guys? I've got a confession. Guys, I've got a confession. I'm back on the meat. Oh my God, I'm back on the meat. Why? Me and Meg went to Sainsbury's. We were like, let's get one of those all-in-a-bag takeaway things that you put in the oven Like an Indian one, yeah, and I really fancied an Indian. They didn't have any veggie options and I was like, fuck it, give me that chicken korma. And do you know what? I enjoyed every mouthful of it. And since then I've had chicken nuggets, I've had beef, I've had a sausage, I've had bacon. You've gone head first back into the meat wagon, head first back into meat, which I never thought I'd say, but yeah, into the meat wagon, back into meat, which I never thought I'd say, but yeah, put it in my mouth. I'm enjoying it. So you know what, apart from having a meaty week, I got very drunk on sunday, so I had a difficult day on monday yep and it sent me into a downward spiral I went to my eating sausage.
Speaker 2:I went to my p PT session. This morning we had a can of Monster.
Speaker 1:It was like nine o'clock, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, look, I am who I am. I'm going for a tough time. A gym bro. I have a can of Monster every day, do you? Yeah, I thought we knew this. No, I'll tell you why. One I actually do enjoy sugar-free Monster. I mean, I don't mind the taste. B we've got a vending machine at our gym and it's either monster 50 grams worth of protein or a highland springs oh, okay yeah sometimes I just don't want a highland yeah. I would go for the monster too.
Speaker 2:Exactly so, but yeah, it was a particularly early monster today normally it's not too bad because you knew you had to do this yeah, exactly, I'd get me through the day.
Speaker 1:But I'd say, do you know what? I'd probably have about a five, six out of ten. This week that's low for you. Yeah, but you know what we're gonna try and bring it back up. Okay, it's fine. Yeah, but tell us, amber, what we are talking about today.
Speaker 2:so today we are going to be discussing sexism in the health and fitness industry, which is prevalent, yeah, prevalent, is that the right word?
Speaker 1:Prevalent, yeah, yeah, rife, rife yeah. Rife, of course, because it's rife everywhere. Yeah, yeah, there's no exceptions, so I'm going to kick off.
Speaker 2:Yes, let's get straight into it by telling you the definition, just consulting with my notes, the definition according to the English Dictionary of Sexism, and it is prejudice, stereotyping or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of their sex. Obviously, men anybody I mean men can be subject to sexism, but it's not the same. No, it's not, and let's really think about where that is usually coming from. Other men, other men.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like the whole, like you can't be racist towards white people. No, you can't, because of the context of racism and all that kind of like the whole, like you can't be racist towards white people. No, you can't, because of the context, yeah, of racism and all that kind of stuff. Same with sexism. Yeah, women have been at a disadvantage for hundreds of years, millions of years Maybe, exactly, and you cannot forget that.
Speaker 2:So actually, it's very hard to be sexist in a negative way towards a man yeah, I think men do suffer with some stereotyping and, yeah, you know all of those things, but real sexism is something that women face, not just in the health and fitness industry, in everything, every walk of life. Yeah, yeah, you obviously hashtag not all men, because it isn't all men.
Speaker 1:No, and also women can be part of it.
Speaker 2:Women are part of the problem. The problem is the patriarchy. The system is the problem.
Speaker 1:We can't be angry at the oppressed.
Speaker 2:No, we can't.
Speaker 1:So that's the definition of sexism? Yeah, um, what else have you got written down there?
Speaker 2:well, I've got a lot of notes I can't actually read, but, um, I thought we should maybe just say why we thought that this is an important topic to talk about well, we're the huns.
Speaker 1:We're the health huns yeah, we are and we know that a majority of our listeners, apart from my dad, dave, are women. Yeah, or actually we do have?
Speaker 2:we do have two other listeners, do we? Yeah, my friend james, okay, and uh, my friend simon okay, not simon hair not simon hair. I don't know if simon hair listens to the pod. I wish that he did. No, this is simon, who I know because he is a runner okay, okay hi simon, hi, simon.
Speaker 1:But yeah, like we, you know, we do have a big female and I think sexism within the health and fitness industry is a massive barrier as to why people would. Women are scared to get started in fitness and health spaces and is responsible for things like diet culture and bad body image and all the other issues that let's say, women predominantly have had to suffer with and had put upon us for decades and decades and decades. And, yeah it, sexism is a massive part of that issue it is.
Speaker 2:It is, and I think the reason why I wanted to do this one this week is because we were talking about something. I don't know if it was last week or the week before, because I can't remember what we did the week before. Last week was obviously Q&A, but I noticed that Matthew Green is celebrated for the times where he's training really hard and you know, when he was training for his 100k, he'd do like a marathon on a Sunday and then a marathon on a Monday, like towards the end of his training, and people might be like, oh my god, he's mad. I can't believe it. If I'd done that, people would be like, uh, you sit down, hon, are you all right?
Speaker 1:like you are training too much. Yeah, there's something disordered about that behavior. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I actually see someone doing that. I think everyone's disordered if they're running two marathons back to back. Yeah, but yeah, no, that's definitely true. There's that preconceived notion that if a woman is training really, really hard and being really really on top of their game with like nutrition and training and sleep, then there's something wrong with them, which is interesting because actually I have that stereotype towards a lot of people who tend to be women, who I see on my social media. My first assumption when I see a woman training like that is like there's something wrong with them interesting.
Speaker 1:Oh my god it's like therapy wow. I think, that comes from a place of actually having worked with a lot of people who displayed those behaviors and having done those behaviors myself and there was something wrong like underneath or like there wasn't it was more of a mental thing. Yeah, but that is me being stereotyping, sexist towards someone. Yeah, I do think that about men, though, as well. If I see someone doing extreme stuff, I do think there's something going on underneath.
Speaker 2:They need to probably figure out well, you know lots of people who get into ultra running, for instance, are people with lots of trauma, ex-alcoholics and addicts and stuff and they do it as a way to deal with some of those things, but in a more positive way, a safer way, maybe, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, I'm the problem. I'm holding up the patriarchy.
Speaker 2:We discuss this most weeks. Yeah, we do. I'm the problem. Yeah, Old Andrew Goggins over there. But yeah, and I mean obviously the Lionesses played the other week.
Speaker 1:Yeah, won the Euros for the second time in a row.
Speaker 2:Yes, because they win everything Pretty much yeah. Because they're brilliant. Yeah, and there was. You had to remind me of his name, because he means nothing to me. What was his name? Who wrote those horrible things about?
Speaker 1:them oh.
Speaker 2:Joey Barton. Joey Barton put all of this stuff up about how they were. I mean, to be fair, he might have done that about the men as well, because he does seem like a sour old grape. But they won, yeah. How can you say they're rubbish when they won? And I don't know her name because I'm not into football and I just see things on the internet. I just see things, I just see things. But there was one of the players who'd played with like a broken oh, lucy Bronze, like really broken leg yeah.
Speaker 1:A man would not do that. A man, really broken leg, yeah, a man would not do that. I would never. I wouldn't do that. No, no. Well, he wouldn't, would you? Um no, he wouldn't, yeah. And I think that misogyny really shines through when there's any women's team doing better than the equivalent men's team in that sport. Football is obviously a massive one.
Speaker 2:Um, rugby, rugby doesn't seem to have it as bad yeah, but I mean if you, even if you think, I mean I know the male rugby teams probably are rife with sexism and misogyny. However I they I don't I mean male football players are treated like celebrities. I mean, they are celebrities aren't they yeah? The amount of male privilege they have is untrue.
Speaker 1:But the women are getting there, but they still have to be so much more guarded. They are held to such a higher standard than the men. So like there was a player, lauren James, and in the World Cup she lashed out at another player. You see that behavior on a men's pitch all the time.
Speaker 1:A bit of argy-bargy, a bit of a kick out of a leg or whatever, and she got absolutely slated. And she's a black woman as well. So she then had racism on top of the sexism, whereas a man does that, apart from David Beckham in the 1998 World Cup, who really got a lot of hate for getting a red card because he stamped on a player. But if any other normal male footballer lashes out, no one is going to get sent off. No one really gives him that hard of a time, no because, it's almost expected.
Speaker 1:It's almost expected. Whereas all these women footballers expected to be like role models who never step out of line, yeah. So even though they're, they're moving forward and progressing the game and all that kind of stuff, they are still held to such a high standard because they're women. Yeah it's like they actually cannot step a foot out of line.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because they will be torn to pieces and what were you saying earlier about like um, our local club norwich?
Speaker 1:yeah, the funding like there's no real. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a big, substantial amount of funding from the men from the norwich city football club which is the part of the.
Speaker 1:They are part of that club. Yeah, um, you know the. The facilities could be a lot better. 99 of those women on that team have a full-time job as well as committing to multiple training sessions a week, the travel to get to the away games their whole weekend, all that kind of stuff well, a lot of the games for women's are played at the nest, aren't they?
Speaker 1:yeah, they're not even played at, like the football ground no, and I think they've had a couple of games, a few more games the last um few seasons and I know they've appointed more like roles within, like paid roles, but for a long time the it was voluntary basis. People running the managers, the people on the committees, like behind the scenes, were all voluntary positions yeah, that's wild that's. It is wild when you think how much money even a club like Norwich has a big amount of money.
Speaker 1:Yeah there's not even a real I don't correct me if I'm wrong but not like a proper academy pathway for the girls, like there is the boys. That might have changed recently, so if I'm wrong I'm wrong, but that wasn't for a long time. That got taken away, so it's still kind of a bit fucked really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean I've actually got some actual statistical facts, oh my God. So the average female professional footballer is paid 90 percent less than her male counterpart. So a top premier and you know this is just from the mouth of google top premier female football player earns around 47 000 pounds a year. But the top male player earns around 26 million million per year, and that is currently Erling Harland, who plays for man City. So his basic salary is £500,000 per week and then with sponsorship and image rights, that takes him up roughly to about £750,000 a week. What the fuck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, and they'll have all their nutrition sorted and paid for. They're not having to then buy a lot. Even in the Women's Super League, which is the highest league you can play football in England as a woman, right? So, like Chelsea, arsenal, those teams, those teams, even in the kind of lower end of those teams, those women are still paying, sometimes for their transport.
Speaker 1:Sometimes they're paying for their own equipment, their boots, all these things, um, and even in that league, out of any wage they're getting and may still have to fund themselves by getting a part-time job. Or, you know, they might be in shared housing with other players and stuff like that. It's yeah, even in, especially at the teams that are coming through the ranks at the minute. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's definitely changed a lot in the last few years, but even last year there were I can't remember what club it was, but they took away a lot of funding from their female team and they were like just a league below this women's Super League. Yeah, and they wonder why it's hard to sustain and build women's football because you're not giving them the resources that they need.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I'm not into football, but I feel very strongly about this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's the same of any sport. It really is the women's rugby team. Some of those women are. They are solid athletes. Yeah, training, that goes into it, the travel like they're representing their country, but there's not enough money being pumped into that.
Speaker 2:It comes down to where they're spending the money and they're not spending it on women's sport and it's almost seen as like a hobby for women, yeah, like, whereas male it, you know, for men it is their, their career is what they do. It's their right yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:How many p, how many boys have we all known I would have gone pro if I didn't hurt my knee. Yeah, it is literally like their god-given right to at least be given opportunities to excel in sports. Yeah. And there's a massive drop-off I think it's about 15, 16, where girls just stop doing sports. The exact reasons are known, but I'm sure we can all take a guess. Yeah, god, we should start a petition or something. Start a petition for something. I mean, pump money into women's sports.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go fund me yeah okay yeah right, I mean, this is an age-old thing, isn't it like? And it's not just football and rugby. Um, there is the famous photos of the first woman to try and run the Boston Marathon, catherine Switzer. And it was the Boston Marathon in 1967. That's not even that long ago and like the race officials attacked her and were trying to tackle her down and stop her from running it.
Speaker 1:I think the question is why? Because women's football was banned for 50 years from the 1920s until the 70s which is insane.
Speaker 2:Is that because women had to be in the kitchen? But I'm not sure.
Speaker 1:Is it because men are frightened that women are? What I read was because there was more people attending the women's games at that time than there were the men's games. Oh okay, so is it. Well, obviously there's no good reason to why those two things should have happened no so it's got to be down to misogyny, sexism, patriarchy, surely?
Speaker 1:well, yeah, because why? Because men feel threatened. I think a lot of men feel really threatened with women coming into these spaces because it then questions their place in society, their roles, what they're allowed to be good at any like, what they get to keep to themselves and keep women out of. Yet we're expected to let men into everything. You know, yeah, we. What safe space? Not safe space, it's not what I'm trying to say, but women only well, we were talking about this earlier, weren't we?
Speaker 2:like, if you think about any sector, the people at the top are usually men. So, like with chefing, yeah, like women are told, you know you, women should be in the kitchen, women should be the cooks. Like you know, men are earning the money. All the top chefs are met not all of them, but a high percentage of the top chefs are men. Yeah, hairdressers hairdressing is a primarily female industry. I've worked in this industry for a long time. The most of the famous celebrity hairdressers men.
Speaker 1:I actually couldn't name you a famous female hairdresser. I know successful hairdressers, like you know in Norwich and stuff, but I could name that guy who does the Kardashians there, Chris Appleton. Yeah. And, to be fair, that is it for me, but I couldn't name you a female one. Well, I mean one of the only Tony and Guy.
Speaker 2:They're men. Yeah, that's what I you a female one. Well, I mean, one of the only guy they're men. Yeah, john oliver man. Yeah, there's a woman called sophia hilton who is quite famous, but she's a big character, okay, um, and there are some others, but I feel like a lot of them have built up a social media presence and got themselves out there back in the. You know the, the media deciding who's going to be in magazines, who's going to be on these like makeover shows and stuff. It's always men always men gokwan.
Speaker 1:No offense, gok. I'm sure he's lovely. I actually have nothing against him, but he was the fashion guy, the guru, what does?
Speaker 2:that man know about fashion he's a dj now I know he'd had a cooking program. Yeah, know about fashion.
Speaker 1:He's a DJ now and he's had a cooking program. Yeah, what the fuck.
Speaker 2:Because he's a man, he can do whatever he wants.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but he's also a gay man. He is a gay man, yeah, but then I don't. It gets to a certain level where I think being a gay man the element of being gay, maybe homophobia being a man trumps that, and then you can still, it doesn't affect you as much, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1:That's a big throw out there, yeah, but well, where are we up to? Should we talk about our own experiences? Have you ever had any? You kind of touched on it with what people think about your training, but experience discrimination or not being given opportunities in the fitness health space, yeah, I mean, I think that's the main one for me.
Speaker 2:The like, the kind of comparisons between, like Matthew being brilliant or just a bit crazy he's so quirky for doing so much running and I would get more of a negative like but you do train a lot you know, and I'm like women in their box. Yeah, like I mean, I'm literally barely doing anything. I'm really not training a lot.
Speaker 1:But isn't it funny how people perceive you slightly off topic. But I get that like god, anna's never stopped. Like I'm your like keeper or something you are. I think yeah, she does. Yeah, she does stop, but like you're on her running account, so all you're gonna see is when she runs, yeah, like you go on her pug account, you're gonna think all she does is hang out with her pugs. Yeah, there's many there's many layers.
Speaker 2:To me there's many layers, um, but yeah, people do really think that and I'm like I don't even do that much. No, not really. I mean not like crazy, you're not. No, I'm not out there running two marathons in two days. No, thank you. Um. But yeah, and I mean I guess not necessarily this is more of an internal thing, but there definitely has been and even is now, like you know, going into not so much the gym I come to with you, like I love that gym and I feel like actually that's a very inclusive space.
Speaker 1:But sometimes if I go to my other gym, I don't really like walking into the like weights gym section, because I feel like people look at me because I'm a girl yeah, I get I now because I may be slight one, I'm very confident in a gym environment, so I that element of anxiety is not really there for me, um, but also because I've got a short hair, I'm a bit masky, um, I just don't feel like they they bothered about me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is true I'm all I I have this not because I said to you and shannon about the mechanics, I don't get the patronizing talk for mechanics they expect me to know what's wrong with my car yeah I think it's just because I've got short hair and I wear like boy clothes yeah same with the gym.
Speaker 1:They just think I'm one of the bros yeah, and I'm actually such a girl's girl you really are, um, but I think definitely when I first got into the fitness industry like I was really I was quite skinny, I had long hair, like I looked very like quite feminine. There were some patronizing comments and stuff. When I done my PT courses and you have to go and do your like, be assessed and stuff I definitely felt like the the men on those courses were just naturally much more self-assured and confident and almost like just they could do it.
Speaker 1:They don't and they were asked to do the demos and had the banter with the instructor and stuff like that, um, and also probably just mainly even football. So definitely when I was younger there wasn't really any girls teams around Norwich and just like you were that token girl on the team, like every boy's team when I was younger, just had that one girl who they just let on. Oh, look at us letting the girl play or they were put in goal or they were just like let on for five minutes at the end, but really they wanted you to play netball.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't remember who was telling me this, but someone said when their daughter was younger might have been Rachel. I don't know that the boys' teams would get so arsey when they would let this girl play because she was so much better than the boys. And again, you know their fragile little egos, even at eight, nine, ten years old, when the boys themselves really didn't care, it was the dads and the mums going God, don't let that girl play Like she's better than my son.
Speaker 1:She's showing him up Like we're not allowed to be better than men and stuff.
Speaker 2:But that's when this starts, isn't it? Because the parents impart that kind of not knowledge that what's the right word Perspective, Perspective, Attitude, Attitude. Approach to love yeah that attitude towards well, boys do this, girls do this, yeah, so it starts really young. So actually those boys probably were starting to think, well, we don't want her to play.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to be fair, give my mum some credit. My mum has pretty much given birth to three boys, but we're all girls Like I was a tomboy as a kid has pretty much given birth to three boys, but we're all girls like my arm is like really like was a tomboy as a kid, my middle sister tomboy and my little sister plays football like 24 7, like I don't think I've ever seen her in a dress not the last few years anyway, um, but my mum always instilled in us that, like we like fuck them.
Speaker 1:You can literally do anything a boy can do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean to be fair, my mum is a bit like that too. I mean, my mum, she literally could. If she'd have had YouTube when we were younger, she probably would have built a house by watching a tutorial Like that woman can do anything.
Speaker 2:Like and I am actually. I am getting more like that woman can do anything, yeah, like and I am actually. I am getting more like that as I get older. But I in the past have definitely been a bit more of like I'm not helpless, but I'll just let Matthew Green do it or stuff. But now I'm like god if you want something done, just get it done yourself yeah it's the only way it's getting done. Um so I think, as time has gone on, I have leaned more into the.
Speaker 1:You can do anything yeah, no, I truly believe that I really do. Sometimes I do you use weaponized femininity? Put it out there yeah sometimes it doesn't work for me very well anymore. I've got such short hair, but sometimes I just don't want to do the quote-unquote.
Speaker 1:Boy jobs yeah I don't want to build the shed, I don't want to put the flat furniture up, so I'll go, dad, I can't do it. I just can't do it. I just don't understand the instructions, which actually is normally true, yeah. Or I used to, if my tyres were flat at the petrol station, just kind of wave the hose around like where do I put this? When I was young and I first started driving, so many men would come and help, not all at once, but like Quads of them. Actually this happened. I did say I was back on the meat.
Speaker 2:This happened to me recently. I am quite capable of putting my own air in my tires and I was doing it and this man was like parked at the side because he obviously wanted to use the machine after me, and he was like oh, I'll hold that up for you and I'm like why I'm doing it by myself. Thank you, like, like. And I felt really like because I was just like gave him a look and was like what, yeah, and I felt a bit rude and I'm like no, because you wouldn't like offer to hold the wire up for a man.
Speaker 1:But then I think it's an interesting. This reminded me like we it's kind of that chivalry aspect of things Like do we still want men to be chivalrous? Like do we still want them to be opening doors because we don't want to be rude to women, I can open my own doors yeah, but like I would hold a door open for anyone if I saw someone I thought was struggling like actually struggling I'm like oh, can I help you with anything?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would do that for anyone, but, like you know, I've got a son, mm-hmm, and I would want him to make sure he's holding the door open for everyone. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I would. But also sometimes I think, god, am I making him a little misogynist? Because I'm like he had a tantrum, like the other day, and he like lashed out and he caught Meg in the face. Um, it's like super nanny, and I said you don't hit girls. And I went I'm gonna. Oh, my god, you don't hit anyone. So actually maybe I'm again. I'm holding up the patriarchy.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, yeah, but that's because it's ingrained into you, isn't it? But also, boys don't hit girls, but they shouldn't hit anybody. No, they shouldn't.
Speaker 1:We shouldn't hit boys, boys shouldn't hit girls. Nobody should hit anybody. You shouldn't hit anyone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, unless you are in a professional, monitored boxing ring where you are professionally hitting people, or self-defense, or self-defense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean God. There is a lot to this, isn't?
Speaker 1:there, yeah, and we're not actually that qualified to talk on any of it.
Speaker 2:But what we are qualified on is our own personal experiences. Yes, we are. And our own personal opinions. This is all just our opinions. So I feel like this brings us into quite nicely one of the topics you had, like objectification, like in gyms, and yeah, so I've got a few talking points actually.
Speaker 1:Okay, which one do you want to go for first? I think I'll start from the top I when I read this talking point I thought interesting. I did use chat gpt to help me, but it's gonna. It's gonna prompt us. Yeah, um, the how the fitness industry markets to men and women. Yeah, for ultimately the same thing. So a massive one is if you're marketing building muscle, building strength to women. Often the words are tone up. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Get rid of your bingo wings. Fat loss, fat loss. If you're talking to a man and trying to sell him a program, it's beast mode Get in the best shape of your life, dominate the workplace um, you know, get ripped so like they're quite aggressive. It's quite aggressive language and really kind of bigging get bigger, take up more space, whereas when you talk to women it's's like be smaller, take up less space, but also do not be fat under any circumstances, definitely don't be fat.
Speaker 2:It's just like how many people do you have come to you that are like oh, I want to lift weights, but I don't want to get big and bulky.
Speaker 1:Less and less as the years go on, because I mean, I am who I am, and if you don't, know, but have you had that in the?
Speaker 1:past. Oh, yeah, at the beginning, because that's what you get taught. If you go on any PT business course. That's the language you get taught to use to market to women for fat loss and weight loss Tone up. I've always been quite anti it. But yeah, I've had so many people in the past say I don't want to get too bulky, too bulky, so I'm gonna do light reps and high weight, okay, like that's. That's not gonna do anything. I want to be hench well and I think there is a really nice way it's turning recently, like.
Speaker 1:I'm definitely not on the side of social media where I'm seeing tiny, tiny women. There's nothing wrong with being a tiny, tiny woman, but when on the fitness stuff I see these women are stacked. They are huge.
Speaker 1:They are bulky, but because they're fucking full of muscle and they're lifting ridiculous weights and there is a big push, I think, and push back against heroin, chic and skinny top and all that kind of stuff where women are like like no, be strong um so, although I also feel like that is coming back in as well, yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:I guess it just depends. I think there's. I think the algorithm is so good at working out what we want to see that actually you're almost yeah, you're almost oblivious yeah what else is going on on the internet. So, whilst we're seeing women get big and strong and do amazing things, that I think there is a whole other side yeah, there definitely is.
Speaker 1:But then I and I think, well, yeah, what was I getting? What was my point? Well, yeah, what was I getting? What was my point? Well, yeah, that's my point. Yeah, that's it now.
Speaker 2:Bang the nail on the head, yeah I mean, I have a real issue with male fitness coaches offering specialist women female fat loss programs. Yeah, like fuck off. What is a specialist women's program. Why are you a women's female specialist? Oh, because women are vulnerable and want to be smaller. Yeah, so you know that you can capitalize on their insecurities.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, when you look at when we did that episode about all the um gear and accessories and stuff um how much the fitness industry is worth. Women are the buyers, and that's, I think, across most markets as well yeah they are, they have the buying power in a lot of markets.
Speaker 1:So as a pt, as a coach, you're probably going to make most of your money selling to fun to women. Yeah, they're more likely to buy a coaching program as a man because they have this self-righteousness and they've been given so much confidence, will believe they can just do it themselves and most of them can, but I know most women could as well, but they just don't, haven't been given that confidence to just go and do it yeah and that's because of another whole host of reasons.
Speaker 2:But yeah, women's specialists, health people, men I mean, it annoys me when a woman says she's a women's specialist, trying to capitalise on women's vulnerabilities. But when a man says it, I'm like, actually, how are you a women's specialist?
Speaker 1:I'm going to rebrand as a men's specialist.
Speaker 2:Helping men lose 10 to 15 pounds. Of drop two dress sizes.
Speaker 1:No, my tagline is helping men feel manly.
Speaker 2:Again, okay but yeah, it really annoys me because I see it all the time yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:All the time.
Speaker 1:And there's no. You can do qualifications like CPDs in the menopause, in pre and post-natal stuff, PCOS and hormones and stuff, but you can't do. I don't think there's a legitimate course. That's just women's health.
Speaker 2:No, they've just decided They've probably done some CPD courses and they've probably just decided Well, yeah, they're probably just.
Speaker 1:Grifters.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're grifters. We're back on the grifter train. This is yeah, but I think they probably just thought you know, women are the one. Women want to lose weight and they're using those before and after pictures. And they're using those before and after pictures pictures of women in their pants, like you know, because they get women to send them pictures of them in their underwear I used to do that but, you don't anymore yeah, and also like I was never doing it in a creepy way no
Speaker 2:and I don't anymore, and you know, I've been training with you for over a year now and we never talk about weight no, not, unless it's in a topic where we're like god, isn't it this bad?
Speaker 2:or this is, it's a positive, like just you know and like we might occasionally, like you know, since I've been training with you, I've maybe lost about a stone and a half, not from doing that, but like it just isn't, it isn't a big thing, whereas I think I know other people that have gone to other PTs in Norwich and like they're having to send them progress photos in their like underwear and they're giving them like you need to eat this, you need to do this diet plan.
Speaker 1:God, boring, it is boring and they don't, and it doesn't work for a lot of people. So I've worked even before I kind of changed my stance like body neutrality and focusing on just getting people stronger. I probably worked with like nearly a hundred clients in a weight loss kind of sense and a handful of them actually lost weight and kept it off and I wasn't saying anything different to one person than I was the other yeah, it just goes to show, and you and you see, all these coaches with these amazing transformations, a the type of person attracted to that level of coaching and commitment, are all the same type of people.
Speaker 1:So you're going to get all the same same type of results. That makes sense. You're going to get all the same type of results. Does that make sense? You're going to get people who are probably very type A, will track everything, have the ability, the time, the resources to track everything. So, of course you're going to get them the results. Yeah. And you think, wow, this person can do it for everyone. No, it does it for the specific niche of person it's targeting and that's why it works so well. Yeah.
Speaker 2:They can't do it for everyone, like the everyday person no, and actually the everyday person is the majority of your people. Yeah, not yours, but everyone's like. Not everybody can have an amazing before and after.
Speaker 1:They just want to feel a bit better yeah, it's exhausting and chasing, that it is just a lot. But anyway, we've gone slightly off topic here. What was the topic? Um sexism in fitness, um, under representation of women in strength spaces.
Speaker 2:Now I don't know if this is that much anymore no, I feel like women are having their day in strength spaces I see a lot of women come into the gym I work and they are all like smashing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're all working hard. They're like their lifting's amazing, a lot better. Sorry, guys and most of the guys I see there, they're a lot more intentional what they're doing. Um, they're lifting a lot heavier relative to the guys as well a better form, better technique, more consistently sorry man you know, but that is just my probably skew to you of the world.
Speaker 2:I just think women are better yeah, but and then if you think about like in the in the mainstream media there I feel like there is more coverage like oh, with the Olympics recently. Um is her name Emily the weightlifter. She is a black woman, she's from Team GB. She had like really cool hair um, I can't, I follow her I follow her on instagram.
Speaker 1:Let me see one thing about the gym, though none of the machines are made for women no, they're all too big and bulky. They don't fit a smaller body no, actually yeah, benches like they're, just it's, it's not right. And what about the Short Kings?
Speaker 2:Emily Campbell, weightlifter, representing Team DB. She's the first British woman to win an Olympic weightlifting medal Right which is great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I wonder how much money she's making, though, compared to some of the male athletes.
Speaker 2:Well, probably not. This is the thing, though, isn't it? I think, actually a lot of people in the Olympics, male and women. They do have to have other jobs. They aren't very well funded. They do have to raise money to pay for themselves. I think Olympic football is one of the issues.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think they get paid so well because of the sponsorships, viewerships. Like I said before, it's not really their fault. They get paid so much. It's just we fucking love football in this country. Yeah, and it's a moneymaker.
Speaker 2:Do rugby players get paid very well. I don't know when, like they're not getting like 27 million a year?
Speaker 1:nowhere near as what, uh, even like a league. One footballer, but I'm not sure now. I could be wrong, but I don't think they're getting paid millions of pounds a year. Yeah, to play rugby. They might be on enough wage to sustain their life. They want me, but I'm not not like football. But then there's viewership and stuff, isn't it? But rugby is massive. Yeah, you think you know the tickets get sold out for the world cup and whatever. Whatever. People love rugby. Confession if I like one type of man, and one type of man only, A rugby man A rugby man, if I was straight, you bet I'd be climbing those tree trunk legs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean sorry, Matthew Green, but I am quite into rugby men.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I actually enjoy watching men's rugby. Do you know what? I enjoy watching the women's rugby too, because they're fit. But yeah, I am only ever attracted to like a big, bulky man. Yeah, with cauliflower ears, fit, fit. Sorry, meg, I love you.
Speaker 2:Here she is being the problem again. It's okay, though, because Meg doesn't listen to this. No, she doesn't. Neither does Matthew Green.
Speaker 1:No, that's fine, we can have a full-blown affair with someone on here and they have no idea no idea we're not, by the way, guys we're loyal and monogamous.
Speaker 2:Yes what's next on your list of things?
Speaker 1:the role of fitness professionals in perpetuating or challenging sexism. So the points are trainers promoting diet culture, body shame, especially toward women. So we kind of touched on that with those programs lack of education around gender inclusive programming, how female trainers and non-binary coaches are often taken less seriously or underpaid. So now we're kind of going into that trans, non-binary those types of areas which we really need to get someone on the pod yeah, who has experienced that life because I feel a bit underqualified sometimes to talk on those things.
Speaker 1:Um, but yeah, it can be very binary. The fitness industry I follow a lot of gender inclusive coaches, um, trans, like mass coaches or trans femme coaches, who specialize in training with people who fall under those umbrellas. Yeah, and you know the way. So, like, certain language I use in the gym is like when someone's doing a chest press, for example, some of the cues is like bring the bar down to your boobs.
Speaker 1:I would just use chest, yeah so it's actually when I did my coaching qualifications, there's not a lot of, there's no teaching really on the language you use to make sure everyone feels involved, because a lot of cues that you can use to coach someone through are gendered, so I don't know if that's even really what we're talking about today, but I guess it is, isn't it because it is?
Speaker 2:you know it is, because I think sexism is, I mean, it affects everybody. Yeah, it does. And when it comes to like stereotyping and being discriminated against, you know it is affecting trans. I mean, it's really affecting trans people and non-binary people Massively In a you know, similar and different way, mm.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, and I do think. I think I just don't. Like you said, I've got like an echo chamber on my social media. I see the things I want to see, yeah, so I I'd like to think the good trainers who have got a platform are breaking down these barriers and attitudes and trying to do something new about it yeah but it is the role of the people with the platforms and the professionals. Well, I mean, if you think about nutrition.
Speaker 2:I mean the people that I follow that do nutrition are the kind of like people who are more relaxed about it, but in a good way, and they often call out some of these like crazy nutrition people and talk about you know who talk about silly trends and blah, blah, blah. But the fact that they're calling out these people, who all have massive followings, like means that there is the other side that people believe that yeah, and they want to buy into that. Oh well, I'm not losing weight because I'm not just eating eggs and steak I've had a steak as well oh my god, who are you?
Speaker 2:Andrew Hawkins?
Speaker 1:yes, you are. Another point is sexualisation and objectification in fitness spaces. Now I've seen those rant videos from those incels who are like how am I supposed to concentrate when there's a woman in my gym with really short leggings and tight bra, sports tops or whatever? Yeah. Don't be a fucking pervert for a start. Like these women, we have to look at you and your fucking lycra sometimes. Yeah. You know your bits on show and running around topless with your nipples out.
Speaker 1:Unless you're a rugby player, unless you're a big rugby player. That's not what we want to see Exactly. Unless you're a rugby player, unless you're a big rugby player. That's not what we want to see Exactly. And I think a lot of female fitness clothing does have that kind of sexualized element to it. Yes, it's very and this isn't me being like women shouldn't wear these things for someone who doesn't like wearing those type of clothing, because I don't want to have, like my bum on the show or my lumps and curves and whatever it is.
Speaker 1:Very like posy, make your glutes look bigger bring your waist in, whereas men's clothing is a t-shirt and shorts. Yeah, their their. Their clothes aren't designed to accentuate maybe some muscle tops and some stringer vests. Guys do absolutely nothing for you. Oh my god, they're funny.
Speaker 2:Their clothes aren't designed to make them look better, but then there's female fitness coaches who specifically coach to get you to a point where you can have a sexy photo shoot yeah, I just think you could have a sexy photo shoot, whatever the day you should be offering that to us do I have to take the pictures or can I get someone else in?
Speaker 1:you have to get someone else in. Great, yeah, you know there's a 12-week program, then a photo shoot.
Speaker 2:At the end I say, do the photo shoot first, but the thing is what about if you know someone like me who have I done a 12-week program? I am not gonna get ripped enough. No, even if I stuck to it a hundred percent, like, don't get me wrong, I don't mind my body, it it's fine, it's very normal, but I'm not. A lot of the people that go to them are sort of already quite small people, yeah, and they are just getting a more what is deemed to be I don't know like.
Speaker 2:Aesthetically pleasing. Aesthetically pleasing. They're getting that kind of like sports calendar model kind of figure. And so what happens? If I go to these people and say, yeah, I want to do a 12 week program and I want a sexy photo shoot, well I think they'd be like fuck off.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the thing. They know their audience, they know who's going to sign up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess that's the thing. It's not going to be me Do that's the thing.
Speaker 1:It's not going to be me. Do you want me to get you a boudoir shoot for Christmas? Maybe, Okay, I'll see you when I can do it like a voucher or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a Groupon, but do you know what I mean? I feel like that's really that is going into sexist behaviour, because why are we not just I'm going to the gym because I want to get strong and I want to get fit and I want to, like you know, be able to like do things when I'm old and lift things up and be stronger than a man? Yeah, whereas I'm not going there so I can have a nice photo shoot in my underpants.
Speaker 1:No, you could do that too.
Speaker 2:I could do that too, but that's not why I'm doing that.
Speaker 1:Are they prioritising, maybe, the wrong things? But then who are we to say it's wrong to want to? You know, have a photo shoot done and build some muscle?
Speaker 2:I don't know. But you can do those things, but I don't think that should be the aim of a programme.
Speaker 1:No, maybe it shouldn't, but unfortunately it's what the people want. It's what the patriarchy wants. It's what the patriarchy wants. I don't do that. That's one thing I don't do.
Speaker 2:No, you don't. I don't do that at all. You take photos of us doing ridiculous things, yeah, pulling the most ridiculous faces, but people love it equally Because it's normal people doing normal things. Yeah, and then, men, just being creepy in gyms but then like men are just creepy full stop, aren't they? Yeah, and you know, outside of the gyms like men being creepy when you're on a run, yeah, you know, never happens to me. If I'm with matthew green, men don't pay any attention, but if I'm on my own, I'm probably looking at matthew, to be fair to be, you know he's got that vibe.
Speaker 2:He's leggy, he is leggy and he's got beautiful hair. Yeah, but like if I'm out on my own or I'm with, like, female friends, I have had harassment from men.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I've seen men in gyms like there'll be a like, objectively, a very pretty girl in there doing her workout and they're literally like flies around shit. They're all going over and joking and they all think that and there's like three of them and they're all just like bantering and she's just like, you know, putting up with it and it's honestly like take it in turns to chat to her and it's really uncomfortable to watch and and these men are just like gross as well. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Spooky and gross and balding, which is nothing wrong with balding. But, out of your league. The confidence men have is unreal. Oh my God, Unreal, yeah. But I kind of think I mean we've covered so much and we could go on and on and on about this kind of stuff, couldn't we?
Speaker 2:Well, what do you think needs to change? If you had three wishes to change sexism in the health and fitness industry, what would you do?
Speaker 1:I would change the way personal trainers are taught. I would update the qualifications, because you have to meet a certain standard to be like and then regulated and yeah, be whatever. What's the word I'm looking for? Like where it's legit, accredited, accredited, that's it.
Speaker 2:I would rewrite that because I think it all starts from your training um I would, because men would probably listen to that, wouldn't they? Because another man would be telling yeah, I think that would be a would probably listen to that, wouldn't they?
Speaker 1:because another man would be telling yeah I think that would be a massive thing, because then that hits the professionals, I think personal trainers, coaches, people in the fitness industry then being almost like checked on so you're not off to go to school. Yeah, I think there should be more regulation of the fitness industry. So what content you're posting, being held more accountable, more education around eating disorders, body neutrality, all those things. Yeah, because if it's coming from the top, it'll filter down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then I think the way that sold language used more um, what so I can't think of the word no like when moderating of sales and programs and content yeah, and stuff like that and I think if you could get those under control then the fitness industry would be a better place like giving shit advice like eddie abu, that stuff, you, that that needs to be moderated, yeah if a woman said the things he said should be laughed out of town.
Speaker 2:I mean, to be fair, he is. He thought he is a laughing stock, but he has got four million followers yeah, and, and you know, being crazy does pay sometimes but, I, think there just needs to be more education, more moderation yeah
Speaker 1:and more of these people online held accountable and actually being seen. I saw a coach the other day post someone who'd done a photo shoot and was maintaining their lean physique and he was like you're crazy, how you know he's still lean and hasn't developed an eating disorder yet, yet everyone would say he would have developed an eating disorder by now because he's counting his calories. I know, yeah, he was like making a laughing stock at people who were concerned about people who obsessively counted their calories in order to get lean and saying how it is possible to stay lean counting calories and not develop an eating disorder, and he was like mocking it, like my client's doing great, like you're a fucking snowflake and I'm and I think, well, I know that person you're talking about and I argue, there's disordered eating behaviors there already.
Speaker 1:But now you do your. You do your thing, bro you make your money yeah that'd be my three things. How about?
Speaker 2:you. Well, I mean, I'd probably just add one more, that we'll take 50 of the funding from all male sports and put it into female, trans, non-binary sports.
Speaker 1:Make it like an equal split.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, I think, more initiatives.
Speaker 2:Why are men getting all the money?
Speaker 1:Because men are giving them the money. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd say even 70%, that would still be so much money left over for them. Yeah, it would be, it shouldn't be like equality, it should be what's the other word?
Speaker 2:Superiority.
Speaker 1:Let's take over, yeah, the matriarchy.
Speaker 2:Well, you know it's giving other people a chance? Yeah, because you're starting on the back foot. So actually just having 50-50 isn't making you equal, because you're already starting behind.
Speaker 1:Is it equity? Yeah is that it? Yeah, is that? It isn't that what you put out your house. What is that word, guys?
Speaker 2:I'm just like yeah, yeah, I'll agree with anything uh, what does equity mean?
Speaker 1:what would we do about google? I don't literally, don't know the quality of being fair and impartial okay yeah well that's it, isn't it? Yeah, if, if that's yeah, yeah, that's it okay. Well, we've spoken for nearly an hour straight and I and I don't think I'm gonna have to edit it edit this at all, apart from the intro. We're getting so good at this, we are, and we would love for more people to know how good we are at this. Yeah, so share this podcast, like it?
Speaker 2:review if you haven't subscribe.
Speaker 1:It really does help because we would like to give up some days of work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just think if we had time to actually spend on this, how great it would be.
Speaker 1:We'd have so many guests. We've had a. We would have a patreon. Yeah, we, and if you would just like to donate some money to us, we are accepting it, we're accepting, I'll send you my bank account. Okay, but we're trying again.
Speaker 2:I'm grifting aren't you're grifting? I'm awful.
Speaker 1:We, we love doing this, we do, and we are really good at it, yeah, and we deserve to be paid for our efforts and to be able to do it more.
Speaker 2:We would like more intention. Yeah, and you know this is just us coming on having a chat, putting the world to rights, which we don't want to change, but we want the acknowledgement and the fame. I'm a fame whore.
Speaker 1:You're a grifter, I'm a fame whore. Don't trust anything we say. Anyway, thank you for listening. Do all the things we asked and we will be back next week.
Speaker 2:oh also I think we should on our instagram, um, at the health hunts pod, we should maybe have a poll on what topic people want us to talk about next week yeah, let the people decide.
Speaker 1:Let the people decide all right then thank you for listening bye.