Beyond the Behavior: How Sensory Needs Impact Children’s Emotions and Actions

Children’s behavior is often a form of communication. Occupational therapist Dina Ackley joins us to discuss sensory needs, emotional regulation, and how parents and teachers can better understand and support children.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

So a lot of people think they're like, oh, so you get kids' jobs. And it's like, no, not at all, actually. Like, no, it really honestly should be changed to functional therapy because that's more so what I do. And so when it comes to school-based, like what is your occupation that moment? That is to be a student. And so I'm there to get them to be the best student that they can.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

We're so excited to welcome Dina, an occupational therapist who works with school-aged children to the Modern Therapy podcast. Dina works closely with kids, parents, and school teams to support emotional regulation, sensory processing, attention, motor skills, and overall development in the school setting. Through her work, she helps children better navigate the academic social and emotional demands of everyday life, while helping adults better understand what certain behaviors may actually be communicating. Today we're diving into what children's behavior may actually be telling us from sensory overload and emotional dysregulation to attention struggles, anxiety, and school-related stress. We'll also talk about how parents, teachers, and therapists can better support children who may be struggling to meet the surface, and why behavior is often more about communication and regulation than simply good or bad behavior. Let's dive in.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

We are so excited to welcome Dina to the podcast today. Hi Dina. Hi guys. Not only are you an occupational therapist, but you're our best friend. I know, really. This is really fun. I'm so excited to be here. And your husband has been on the podcast before.

SPEAKER_04 1:29

He has. I'm literally sitting in his chair now.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Your husband, Karis, for anyone who does not know. Yes. But yes, we are so pumped to have you here today. Tell us who you are. What do you do?

SPEAKER_04 1:42

Yes. So I am Dina, for those who don't know, and I'm an occupational therapist. Specifically, I work in the school systems. I have a background in outpatient and also orthopedics, but my niche and what really got me into the field was being in school-based therapy.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

So tell us about that. What does an occupational therapist do in school?

SPEAKER_04 2:02

So a lot of people think they're like, oh, so you get kids jobs. And it's like, no, not at all, actually. Which I could totally understand, like why you would think that's a good thing. Nah, you don't make elementary kids school. I mean, we would start off strong and we start off early, friends. Um, no, it really honestly should be changed to functional therapy because that's more so what I do. And so when it comes to school-based, like what is your occupation in that moment? That is to be a student. And so I'm there to get them to be the best student that they can. And most of the times that's through um sensory processing, so their attention in the classroom. I'm there to help them with their handwriting because as a student, that's what you're needing to do. I'm there with their, it's a big word, but ocular motor. So your eye movements, right? Looking at the board, looking at your paper, looking at the board, paper, or even just like from your paper to one to the other, or computer to the paper. All those are really important to be able to be a student and to do it well. So I help with that, with cutting, emotion, some emotional regulation, some social, but most of the time it's those first three to really help them be able to be the best student in those moments.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

That's awesome. So what you're doing is a little bit more targeted than like if somebody were to go see an outpatient occupational therapist.

SPEAKER_04 3:15

And that's what's so interesting about it, because I mean, just real talk, through the schools, like it's paid through the schools. So parents see an occupational therapist and hear that like my kid needs occupational therapy, like, oh, I'll just go to the school and get it, right? But we are different than an outpatient. So there's oftentimes I'll be in these meetings and they'll say, like, well, can't you have another session? Like my kid needs it. And I was like, Well, I'm school-based. So the areas that I'm looking at, your kid, yes, might need it, but maybe only twice. But the other areas which I do have, like, you know, that knowledge on, but this is not the realm of where I'm gonna be targeting that, that's where the outpatient comes into place. And also equipment-wise, like, oh my goodness, outpatient facilities are so much fun. Like, they're so much fun. And I miss that component of all the swings and the slides and these crazy equipment. And like, there's like videos that it's like, as an occupational therapist, your day looks entirely different than my day, right? Like, there's cones, there's sprinkles, there's tubes, there's bubbles, there's play-doh. Like, it is so much fun. And in my little realm, like it's a tiny little room. I have like a trampoline, we have our like scissors and our coloring and all that kind of fun stuff. And depending on the school, some of them can be elaborate, but it's way different. Like, I have to work with what I have. Like, I use rubber bands for things, right? Like, we're at that level, right? I figure out how to do something with the pipe cleaner. I used a pipe cleaner for a uh paintbrush the other day, okay? This is where we're working with friends.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

So creative.

SPEAKER_04 4:41

So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Well, we were laughing when I saw your car the other day, and you're like, no, look at my boxy. All my facial therapy stuff is back there.

SPEAKER_04 4:49

You're like, you know, you're a traveling OT wed. Yeah. Truly, because I have to go from school to school most of the time. And so either I'm the bag lady and I have a bazillion bags because I'm grabbing from one school because like, oh, that's a great game from my next kid, or whatever may be, or just through the years, uh, my trunk is literally a portable therapy place. Like it really is. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

It's so funny. We had spot on therapy earlier in the podcast, and they they have an outpatient facility and their room, you know, in looking at it, it like it looked like a playground. Yeah, that's like what you were describing.

SPEAKER_04 5:20

It's and that's what like drew me into the field to begin with. I'm like, this looks so fun, like so fun. And then you start learning about it, and they're like, wow, this is so fascinating. How our bodies work, how our brain bodies work, how doing certain techniques or whatever it may be can impact a person positively. Like it's it was really cool to be in school and learn about what I'm gonna be doing and now actively doing it. I'm a big fan.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

And your description of your occupation is being in school. Yeah, I've never heard it described that way. That makes so much sense because your occupation is not okay, you have a job, yeah, but it kind of is because your job is to be a student.

SPEAKER_04 6:00

That's your yeah, actually, that's true. But occupational therapy as a whole, like within school, you learn so much to help different people different ways. Like, there's knowledge of helping like a person who's an inmate, right? If they're released, they're going back into society. It might have been 10 years, it could be 20, it could have even been longer. Life in this world has changed so much. What's a kiosk? What's an iPhone? What's earpods? As an occupational therapist, you can teach them how to be acclimated to life. People, soldiers, you teach them how to be acclimated as a civilian. Elderly people of how to be the best independent that they can, or you could work with um contractors and redesign homes to be the best for different people based on their disabilities. Like it's really vast in that kind of way, but my niche just happens to be helping these students be a student. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

That's so cool and probably so rewarding to, you know, be able to like you set these kids up for life. So you mentioned that it's a free service that happens in school. What are some of the things that um the school looks for as far as like criteria goes to be able to, you know, help those kids?

SPEAKER_04 7:06

Yeah, great point. So there are standard assessments that uh what normally happens, the teacher is like, ooh, this kid seems to be behind in certain areas. For me, they're looking at their handwriting, their their attention, all those things that I listed before. So they might call me or like be like, hey, can you like pop in and take a look? They'll also reach out to a case manager to potentially see maybe they can just reach out to the parent to get that. But long story short, I'll do a screen and just kind of like observe the kid a couple things, and I'm like, you know what? Yeah, there's someone who I can like dig deep a little bit more in. Or it could just be like, oh, you know what? Like they seem like they can't see, like, just move them closer to the table, like ideas. But what would happen is I'll pull them and do an actual evaluation and there's different standard assessments. So they do the assessments, we will essentially do them together, but they'll do that, and based on the findings, there's different criteria to meet school-based OT. And if they meet it, then based on what I was seeing, can recommend how many days that I would recommend being with them. Normally it's two times a week individual. If it's someone who's like, okay, like they could actually blend well with another student, I might pull them in a group. And if it's someone who it's just little tweaks, I'll do a console. And a console is essentially going into the classroom and helping the kid in the classroom because at the end of the day, that's where they need to be. They being with me is fantastic. I love working with kids, but you that's where they need to thrive and be in that moment. So I'm trying to get them there so I could just make small changes in that situation for them to be able to be that student that they need to be. So yeah. Yeah. So it's very collaborative. You're very collaborative.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

And then are you also working with like physical therapists, mental health therapists?

SPEAKER_04 8:46

Oh, yes. So most of the time, if they're getting OT, they're getting PT or vice versa. Um, but the PT is working on more of the gross, more of the big movements, the positioning. I definitely do that and can do that, but that's more their specialty. So I leave it to them. And they do that, and then speech, speech is huge in um schools. Like a lot of kids get speech. And because it's more than just can they speak? It's the communication socially. They focus a lot on that. I again can do that, but that's their specialty. And then some of there's behavioralists as well, so they're working with them, and then obviously the teacher and the parent are all in. So it's a big group of collaborations that are happening. And yes, you're talking to each other if there's issues, but you're also talking about those strengths. I like literally talked to the speech therapist the other day, who's like, oh, he's talking so much, like versus in one word. Like, I'm seeing that. And with your brain-body connection, all those different components help. So if a kid's not speaking, weirdly enough, there's science behind it, don't quote me too much, but putting them on swings or any kind of like vestibular, they call it movement, potentially can increase their ability to speak. It's wild. Yeah, it's an unscrambling that happens in the body through a swing or that kind of movement that can help a kid. It's wild.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

That makes so much sense because I always feel like like whenever we have like deep conversations or important conversations, like they're always better when we're walking.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

They are. Really? Yeah, and you're a pacer when you talk about it.

SPEAKER_04 10:16

And I'm a pacer. Yes. Yes. Also, type of self-regulation type of thing, but there's that I'm not prescribing it.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Yeah, don't analyze it. You don't analyze he gets like too excited. And then, like, I'm like, you know, the conversation's good when he's like down the block. And I'm like, Brandon, are you still in the book? Where'd you go? I love that.

SPEAKER_04 10:35

Come back, sir. Wow, he really liked that. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yeah, yeah. There's like a worn path in my floor.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

Well, good thing you know how to construct it and fix it. So that's great too. That's where it goes. So sweet. I did not know that. But see, that's so fascinating because I feel like in the past, schools were kind of known for let's like fit all these kids into the same mold, right? Like we have to sit in this desk for this long. You have to do exactly what every other kid is doing. And it sounds like maybe that's changing a little bit. Like you guys are coming in and saying, well, like maybe this kid needs to move around a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 11:07

Yeah, part of my job is to advocate for the field, but also for that kid. And there's I can't say gone are the days because it still exists, but we're getting to the days where gone are the days where that kid, every kid needs to sit in this chair. No, no. I come and I'm like, we have a wiggle board, we have a wiggle chair. There's all different kinds of seats now. There's all different kinds of, you know, I could get a gigantic rubber band and put it at the feet of the chair of the kid and they could be bouncing during class. During class. Wow. And bouncing. And as the teacher, like, you're not noticing as much that kid, the kid's moving, yes, but like he's not disrupting the class. I could put Velcro under the chair or even mostly the desk if the kid likes to fidget like right and touch stuff. They could just put their finger and run it by side to side, and they're able to stay focused while getting the input that they need. There's so many different things. Now, even like putting a fun thing on the pencil, right? You could just do something like that can help a kid dramatically. And my job is to go in there with those lens to see how I can make it most appropriate for that kid. Um, it could even be having a corner in the back where, okay, maybe he he needs to pace when he's really excited, right? So, like, this is his little line, and I put a little line or a zigzag line, and that kid is like, let's do a kid and it's like.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

Like, I probably could have benefited.

SPEAKER_04 12:31

I have a superhero everywhere. I've come to the chat.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

I would have been meeting with Dina for sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Yeah, I would love to hang out, right?

SPEAKER_04 12:38

I would have loved to hang out. But like a lot of times those kids are misunderstood, or they're the labeled the bad kid. And it's like, no, no, like, don't get me wrong, there are some kids that have behaviors component to it, and that's a whole thing. But majority of the time, there's some kind of sensory thing that's happening that I'm there to help. There's one example I can think of where this kid, just vision him, like the cutest little like sunglasses, not sorry, glasses, glasses. His hair is curly as can be, and he's like, yay, hi. And he's like the Tasmanian devil. He's rolling all over the place, running, and he just like babbles. Put a weighted vest on this kid, and he's like, hi, today is Monday, June 3rd. Oh, I'm like, did we just perform a miracle? I don't really know what just happened, but that was amazing. It seems like such a little thing. Such a little thing. But that's so life-changing. Yes, it's so life-changing. And that can't, that doesn't happen to every kid, but it happens to a lot. And it's just giving them the correct input, the correct sensory experience for them to calm their body down. You essentially, as we've grown up, you have you hear that you have five senses, right? The eyes, the ears, the smell, the taste, so on. If I don't, I don't keep me track in that moment. But you actually have more so seven, you can argue eight. And the other two is the ones that you don't hear too much. And that's called proprioception and vestibular. And proprioception are is like the compression, it squeezes. There's these little receptors in your joints that calm your body down. That's why you feel good with the hug. That's where you feel good with like weighted things. I hear a lot about weighted stuff. Essentially, it is where your body is in space, but that's more so vestibular. That's the linear movement and stuff like that. So those areas, and they work hand in hand most of the time. And so when those areas are out of whack by just giving them what they need, you see a dramatic difference in that. The other one is interception, and that's like you're feeling having to like use the bathroom and be hungry. So some people add it in, some people don't.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

But anyway, which also, I mean, if you have a kid sitting in class and he's starving, I you're gonna see some effects of that.

SPEAKER_04 14:39

Could cause a reaction. Yeah. Sometimes I'm like, hey, um, can he have gum in class? That will help his attention. Like literally a lollipop, like it's just little stuff like that that you that you don't think, but that's where I come into play to give ideas on.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

So you know, I think like a lot of times like parents aren't always aware of like that this is a thing, right? That resources and I I imagine it's never obviously happened to us, but like you know, like if if a child is having issues, you know, paying attention, or maybe they're acting out in school, that does get labeled sometimes like kind of what you were saying. And as a parent, that could be stressful. Yes, right. So, you know, knowing that it could be as simple as like changing one thing in their environment, right? Like that that could be a huge relief.

SPEAKER_04 15:21

Yeah, oh totally. It definitely can. Lifestyle has a big component to it. Um, some I mean, to a degree, it could be what they're eating, their daily routine, how much sunlight they're getting. There's all different components to that that definitely can impact it. But yeah, sometimes it's making that one change. Sometimes it's making a lot of changes. Sometimes it really is to change the environment. Like part of me would be like, I don't think this classroom, like you go to that team that I mentioned before and put my input of saying, like, I don't think this classroom is conducive to this kid. He might need a little bit more one-on-one. And so that's a different type of classroom that that might be. As uh therapists and as professionals in the in the school system, we're there to help them in the less restrictive environment. That's what we that's our game plan to thrive the best. But sometimes they need to have a certain room to be able to do that. And so some of them is more of the one-on-ones, some of them is more of a pull-out resource, some of them is more of a general education kind of classroom. Um, and as a mom, and I've been in those class, I've been in those meetings where you hear like, oh, it's a special ed classroom, and the parent's face goes like white. And right, like, and it's like the label, there's not labels. There's labels, but there's not labels, right? Like physically on the documents, it might say like kid with special needs, but that doesn't carry you out through your whole life of like, you know, I'm a special needs kid. No, that just means that that is able to give you the support you need, and it's just changing that thought process and changing that mantra that like your kid is just gonna be the most supported in the environment that he needs, and that's in a most beautiful thing. And you're gonna have all these other people at your resource and at your disposal to talk to and to chat with, and they're there to help your kid, and that's a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

So, yeah, that acceptance has to probably be such a good reframe to look at it that you know that way. Is there like a requirement for like a formal diagnosis for them to work with you, or even if a kid is struggling with like you know, using scissors or something, would that qualify?

SPEAKER_04 17:22

Yes and no. So I've been in different kinds of school systems, and different ones kind of require different things. Some do require a diagnosis of some sort, and there's different categories that the kid can fall into to qualify for those services. I've been into other places where um it's more there's a thing called like a 504 where that means that they're get receiving OT, but there's no other like diagnosis. There's some alertness from a doctor, but no actual diagnosis. So it really depends. Sometimes it depends on the grade level that they're in as well. If they're younger, they kind of wait a little bit some places versus when they get older and they're really seeing issues, then they go in that route. So I would say the long short of it is most of the time there's a diagnosis that's involved, um, but doesn't have to always be. So I would just check with your school, um, particularly the case managers would know the best about that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

You hear a lot about early intervention. Is that like it's proven that the earlier that people get services, that kids get services, that it benefits them. Are you seeing that from the young age or from older kids who maybe didn't receive services when they should have?

SPEAKER_04 18:24

I definitely can say each kid is different for sure, but I can say that the ones that kind of pick up a little bit later have more catch up to do for sure. And like as I mentioned, it's school-based. They can go outpatient. There's um your insurance, you can just show up to outpatient facilities, right? And be or call them. Most of the time they take insurance, sometimes they don't. Sometimes you need a doctor's notes, sometimes you don't, and you can get those services, yeah, for sure. But I am seeing they're starting a little bit stronger in the schools if they are getting the services prior to than the catch up that's involved. I personally love working with the pre-K. I'm like, let's get that foundation, friend, and it's just a fun day. Like, it really is what we do for what it looks like I'm playing, but there's so much skill involved. Um, and then I just have so much fun too. But yes, that's what I'm noticing for sure. Um, so and I think there's just no general awareness, more so, that like there's so many different play areas to bring your kids to these days, like a lot of fun community groups that have those awesome skills to be able to explore them or build them or have the kids exposed to different types of equipment that they have to plan out how to climb up these stairs, how to get around this barrel. Because all of that is motor skills. It's just how do I move my body, right? And so the more exposure the kid has to different techniques or equipment or even just life, the better off they are, honestly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

Oh my goodness. I'm just picturing little preschoolers and occupational therapists. What kind of what kind of stuff do you do in your sessions with preschoolers?

SPEAKER_04 20:02

Ugh, they're the cutest little nuggets. And like there's nothing better than walking into the room being like, Miss Dana! And they're like running, and the teacher's like, Stop running. And I'm like, wait, can I have my moment? Can I have a moment, please? Like, I love that they love me. Okay. Meanwhile, I've like worked with like middle schoolers, like, you're here again. Or sometimes, like, if they like see me at home, he's like, yo, you've taken me, Miss D. Come on, take me. And I was like, I don't have you right now. He's like, yo, I want to get out of Spanish. I'm like, that's not the reason you come to OK. All right, all right, go back to class. Um, so they're funny. But for preschoolers, what my session normally looks at is some in one form and other type of play. So I always like to start with like an obstacle course of some sort. And based on what I have available, but I'll make it work, whatever. So we're climbing, we're jumping, we're crawling through things, we're throwing beanbags. Squiggles are some of my favorite friends, which like a suction cup. I love a window in my room because I love to write all over the window with expo markers. And they're like, I can write on it. I'm like, only with Mistina, only with Mistina. And so um, we do all kinds of like sequencing, because that's all sequence, like right, this step, then this step, then this step. So with your day-to-day, when you're school, I have gym, I have lunch, I have this, or I have to go to my backpack, I have to take out my folder, I have to go to my chair. Like all those types of sequencing relay in different parts of your area. So we do that option, of course, and then depending on the kid, I'll sit down at the table, or we'll go sit down on the floor. I like to do the floor as much as possible because they're normally sitting at the table a lot of times of their day. In preschool, they're playing more for sure. Um, but with other kids, I do like to sit down on the floor because it's kind of fun. We play board games, we do play-doh, we play other kinds of fun games. Um, there's like this ball sorting game that a lot of the kids of my age, well, the kids that I work with like to play with. We're using tongs, we're pulling apart um cotton balls, we're crafting, right? We're cutting things, and then some kind of writing, whether that's like pre writing, we're just doing lines, like let's bring the car to the finish line. So we're doing like horizontal lines or the rain is falling, things along. Those lines, and then I let them pick something fun that they love to do, and then we leave. My sessions are typically 20 minutes, but they're like three years old, so it goes everything goes really fast. So you'll do like 10 things in like one session because you're like, and we're done with that. Okay. Mixture in some breakdowns from time to time, and you got your 20 minutes, and then we gotta like walk back the kid, and then I pull them back out. Um, in OT, sometimes you do push-in sessions. I don't tend to do that with preschoolers, that just means that you're in the class and you're right, like one-on-one with that kid. I don't do that till they're a little bit older because I just there's no real use for that. Um, but that's just my opinion. Um, but yeah, it's all play, all different ways. And what I'm looking at is I'm seeing how they're using their fingers, um, seeing how they're maneuver uh maneuvering different items, I'm making sure that they're using their fingers correctly, I'm making sure that they're cutting correctly, how they're holding their pencil correctly, their body positioning, all different stuff like that is what I'm focusing in on. And sometimes when you get a really good relationship with the teachers, which I tend to do because like those are like I'm in this with them, right? Like they're with these kids, I'm in there. Sometimes I'll walk past or like, can you take blah blah right now? I'm like, not a problem. So I'm like, because if they're having a tougher day, because some kids they're having a tough day, like behaviorally, it's coming out behavior, but they're just seeking sensory. So we'll come and hang. I'm like, go jump on that trampoline to your heart desires, my friend. Rock and roll. Let's throw those beanbags in that bucket a bazillion times. Let's just do it. Wow. So they just really need that. Sometimes they really do. Yeah, and sometimes the teacher does too. I'm like, I can't do this right now. And so I'm like, I got you, I got you. So yeah, that's what my day tends to look like in the schools.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Yeah, that's that's so fun. You know, like developmentally, you know, we're all parents here, right? So, like, you know, you as a parent, like it's almost like a a race where you're like looking at your kid and you're like, come on, you can do it. Like, hit this milestone, hit this milestone, hit this milestone. I think there's a lot of anxiety that happens, you know, for the parents when maybe the kids are struggling to hit those certain milestones. If you had to talk to a parent that maybe has a kid in that scenario, like what words would you use to reassure them?

SPEAKER_04 24:09

You got this. It's totally fine. I mean, as an OT and with my own child, I'm like, oh my gosh, you're you're blah blah blah blah. And like you get freaked out with certain things, and then you're like, there's this weight, and like people know that you're a therapist. Why isn't he doing that? But like in reality, like it's so fluid. You could pick up one book and they're saying developmentally they need to be doing this. You could pick up another book and they're gonna tell you different ages. As my job is to make sure that it's fluidity, like it's having fluidity, if that makes sense in the fluid motion. Um, but if those moments happen, it's too and it's also totally okay to seek help. I think that's also good to know that because I wouldn't say don't do anything, it's gonna be fine. No, I would definitely seek if you're having concerns, talk to your pediatrician. Great place to start. If you're also having more concerns, talk to the teacher. Do you think that this is something that would be helpful for them? Have those conversations. Like it doesn't mean you need to find a place right now and get them in those services right now just because you're freaking out. No, just start talking to people. Bring your kid around other kids, see how they're developing or how they interact with one another. Okay, they're walking this way or they're talking this way or they're playing with toys this way compared to another kid. Like, do that for a little bit and then and in addition to have those conversations with people who are around your kid all the time, and then be able to go seek services. But there's no harm in seeking it, but I definitely say don't not do anything, just relax, chat, observe, and then do. So that's what I would go about.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

I think that's that's good advice because you know, there's different buckets of people, like some people get so obsessive with the milestones, it's like okay, they said eight to ten months, like you're nine months, you need to do that right this second. But then you're more so talking about kids who have you know further delays than that or things that maybe are not typical for kids to be doing. Right, yes.

SPEAKER_04 26:02

So there is a clear line, and I think that's where my encouragement with being around other kids, right? Because then you really can see, wow, okay, he's literally off into space right now. This kid is babbling and talking and eating all the foods and doing all the things, and my kid is literally in the corner or like flapped on the floor. That really makes you be like, okay, something's going on. And that's not a bad thing. It's not like that's what I think is too. And I think there's a change that's happening. I just can remember being being younger, and there was this like labels like, oh, that kid is getting services on her. Like, you know, they're just whispering. And through the years, there's been such an increase in different diagnosis, and so I do think that that raises more awareness of it. I think that the like the stigma of getting services is getting lowered, which makes it great. And there's like so many parents who want to do well for their their kids, and that's a beautiful thing to have. Um, but yes, I do think that there are certain clear signs when they're withdrawing from social, when they're not interacting with toys, when they're not really making eye contact with you, that could automatically be like, okay, let's start looking into something now. Um, but by reaching the different milestones, that's again looking at the different kids and seeing, okay, maybe there's some areas to work on for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

What do you think is like, I mean, I guess maybe it's that's kind of what you said, like the the increase in prevalence, or like what do you think are the the main factors that are going into this change about this culture shift that we're kind of seeing of like being a little bit more proactive about you know, early intervention or jumping in? Because we're we're we're seeing the same thing happen with therapy.

SPEAKER_04 27:43

Yeah, maybe just the exposure of it. Um, I really couldn't tell you, like within that, but like it's like a little, I can't say the word alarming, but it's a little bit interesting. Cause like growing up, I feel like there was one like not gonna say special needs class, but one special needs class of sorts, right? Right now I go into c schools and there's like three or four. And so you're like, and they're invasive kids, right? Not everyone who gets OT is really in an evasive or intense situation. I have plenty of mainstream, they call it mainstream kids where there's no diagnosis, there's just little things that we're working on and stuff like that. Um, but there's definitely an awareness of it, an alertness of it. There are different assessments now when years ago that didn't exist, those different like trying to meet certain things or different criteria to get services or to diagnose certain kinds of diagnoses and stuff. And then I think also just like, yeah, taking away the stigma that these services are good and they're positive, right? You know, going to talk therapy is a beautiful thing to like let loose and just to word vomit and to gain a different perspective from someone else. These services can help your kids in so many ways that help you out in the long run too, but also get them to be the most independent, beautiful human. So why like why wouldn't you? So maybe that's part of it. I don't know how insurance works if it didn't way back when, but that maybe that's a cartoon.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Yeah, I'm wondering, like, you know, I'm sure, like maybe it's less of an increase in prevalence and more of just there was a lot of people falling through the cracks.

SPEAKER_04 29:14

Well, yeah, really good. That you got that one kid is like, yeah, Billy was really wild. Meanwhile, he's like, sensory processing's out the door, and they had no coping mechanism.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

Yeah, honestly, it really could. Yeah. So I'm curious, you know, you were kind of talking before about how kids can really easily get that label, like they're a bad kid or they don't behave. How can teachers and parents kind of shift their view of kids who are struggling with with you know behaviors and things like that and be like, maybe they're communicating something to me, maybe like they're trying to tell me something.

SPEAKER_04 29:46

Yeah, and that's where my job comes into play to advocate for that. So I do this uh assessment called the sensory profile, and I give it to the teachers, and it's a chart that breaks down all the different sensory experiences and essentially is like, does this kid often just randomly stand up and walk around the classroom? And there's a chart, like most frequently, often occasionally, stuff like that. And so they check it, all these questions, I score, and then it gives me categories and information based on that. So what my job is to let them know, yeah, so you know what? He's seeking auditory input. That's why he randomly hums or is really loud in class. And so I gave them that information. They're like, oh my gosh, so like he's not quote unquote bad. He just needs what he needs in that moment, right? He needs to hear to be able to stay focused. So it comes out like, oh my gosh, he's a really loud kid. But no, in reality, he's just getting the input that he needs. Or if he's getting up and moving so much and he's just he's making my head spin the amount of times I hear that from teachers. Um it's like, no, like he just like he doesn't know where his body is in space right now. That's why he's flailing all around or he's flopping on the ground. So let's do like some tornado spins. Let's make sure that he's getting on the swings when he's going to recess. Let's make sure like those different things. And when he gets that, he's able to be attentive within the classroom. I think there's also a component that classrooms have changed too. And like I mentioned before, like it's not cookie cutter where you have to sit in a chair, you have to be at the desk for eight hours a day. Like there has to be movement. And I do think there's an awareness with the younger teachers that like a movement within the classroom needs to happen too. If we need to have story time, we're gonna go in this corner. We're gonna look and do a science experiment where we're gonna look at all the windows in the school and we're gonna go in the hallway and we're gonna walk around or we're gonna go outside, right? To have that movement break because who likes to sit at a desk for hours, right? Like, and that's matters. Adults don't even like that. Adults don't even. We have the stand-up desks now, right? And so, like, I think there is an awareness of that as well, but on the extra level, that's where I come in to advocate for the kid to explain to the teacher. So there is a more of an awareness because I've had teachers come up to me like, Do you think he's like seeking tactile input? I'm like, I love your words right now. This makes my heart so happy. And I'm like, let's find out, and then we try different things and see. Um, so yeah, that's what I really think is. There's just this more understanding. Social media is awesome, it's terrible and awesome at the same time. We all know the reasons for those, but for awesome of just you know, raising awareness of it, giving ideas that are out there, um, has really helped too, I believe.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Yeah, I think just the bigger conversation, too. Like you're saying, you coming in and explaining to a teacher this is what's going on, that's gonna change their entire viewpoint of that child, which we already know the effects that could have on a kid long term.

SPEAKER_04 32:34

Oh, yeah, because I'm like thinking, oh, poor little tiny nugget, like that's where my brain goes automatically. Like, can I help you? And they're thinking, like, when is this kid absent? Like, when are when is this over? And I was like, no, his actions in this moment are telling us so much. So let's help him out. And I would say, like, I'm gonna say eight times out of ten, maybe a little bit less than that, depending on the situation, could dramatically impact it just based on the sensory that they need. There are plenty of other times where they need more of a behavioral approach, they need more structure, and there are times where medicine is necessary, and that's okay too. Like it really is. And so, yeah, those are pretty much the areas.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

You know, you mentioned like, you know, the the teacher saying, like, oh, this kid needs does you think he needs tactile input, or you know, you mentioned the humming with auditory input. Like, is there like almost like a very very quick high-level like brief or of like sensory inputs required for certain behaviors that like parents might, you know, be able to, you know, have a helpful takeaway with? Like, you know, if yeah, if my kid is X, this would be helpful. If my kid is X, this would be helpful. Could you riff a few?

SPEAKER_04 33:38

Yeah. So if your kid does not sit still and he's running like side to side, side to side, side to side, get that kid on a swing, get that thing, that kid on a um slide, I'd be curious of how they do on car rides. Put him on a car ride, put him in a stroller, like any kind of like linear, one-way motion. Awesome. Um, you can even have them hold them, put them upside down, hold them tightly, but hold them upside down. That's the same kind of input in that kind of way. If the kid constantly is leaning on you, brushing into things, flopping on the floor, give that kid a hug, give that kid like some shoulder squeezes, give that kid like a heavy backpack, or give them tasks around the house. Like, here's a grocery bag, like help mommy put the groceries away. That's like heavy input. Grounding them, awesome. Um, if they have things like they love touching things, like all the things. Like, first of all, that's fantastic. I really want to depending on what they're touching, but like, yeah, like get them into like cooking with you, cleaning with you, playing with water, like do all that kind of fun stuff like that. If they're put constantly putting things in their mouth, do the other things that I mentioned previous because uh oral stuff tends to be coinciding with a probe or a vestibular or some kind of tactile. So you want to go in that route, you can give them chewies or give them different types of food. Make sure that their variety of what they're eating is there. You want crunch, you want sweet, you excuse me, cold, you want hot, you want smooth, you want all those kind of textures to get the input in their mouths. And then visual, I mean, you can just that one I would seek a little bit on the eye doctor's component of it to see if there's any kinds of like eye things that are going on. Like, what are they seeking? Are they bringing things too close? There could be an eye situation that's going on. Are they just liking things going really fast? Then, like, I would slow that down because that is a little bit of a dopamine like hit and serotona hit, but like you can just show like a lot of pictures of like actual pictures versus audio, like um, more like camera pictures. So a lot of books. I would bring them different kinds of locations, maybe aquarium and things like that. Um, sound, earphones are great, expose them to different types of music, all that's beautiful, different sounds of trucks and cars. Um, all that would be my recommendations. That was amazing. I think I reached everything. So there's that.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Very efficiently too.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

But I'll like wrap and go, wrap and go. Well, I think that would leave to the perfect segue into the Am I the Problem? Yes. That we do. You want to read it? You want me to read it?

SPEAKER_00 36:06

Oh, you can read it.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

Okay. So every episode we do, Am I the Problem, we kind of break down. You're never the problem of casting. Everyone else's problems. It's everyone else. I know. The only reason I read these. Love it. Okay. And these are real people, by the way. I know some people have asked us, like, oh, would you like to make that scenario? We're like, no, these are actual people from Reddit. Really? Okay. These are real people. Lay it on me. Okay. I, male in my 20s, have a two-year-old daughter. We'll call her Meredith for the sake of this post. Our lives have been a bit chaotic in the past month. We moved houses, Meredith went to preschool for the first time, and then baby number four arrived. She's always been our more emotional kiddo, but with all the changes in her life lately, the cry is more frequent. I think she's super overwhelmed. Yesterday was one of those days where everything was setting her off. Eventually, Meredith just got to a point where she was sobbing and I couldn't distract her, talk her through it, or anything else. So I picked her up and snuggled her for a bit as she calmed down. My wife was not impressed with this at all. She said that we need to be on the same page as preschool because they don't cuddle everybody who cries there. She said Meredith needs to learn to self-soothe and that me holding her undermines the coping strategies Meredith is developing. Am I the problem for holding our two-year-old daughter when she's upset slash having a meltdown?

SPEAKER_04 37:21

Oh my gosh, poor little Meredith. That's a poor little guy. Oh my god, has four kids. Like, wow.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

Like this guy's got bigger issues.

SPEAKER_04 37:35

He's got four babies. Four babies, four babies. I mean, the baby just happened and then he has a two-year-old right now. Like, oh my goodness. Just moved houses. Just moved houses. That's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

There's a lot of money.

SPEAKER_04 37:46

I can't. That's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

Yeah, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

That's a lot.

SPEAKER_04 37:49

Okay. Well, first off, which I think is gonna give out my answer is please hug your children. Please hug them.

unknown 37:57

Okay?

SPEAKER_04 37:58

Can we just all do that? Can we all just said that because I cuddle my kids all day? Please do that. And do it as much and as often. And like, where else are they gonna get that? That's what you as parents are there for, is to love on them and to spoil them. Yes, you're meant to spoil them. Are you meant to spoil them to be rotten humans? No. But like to spoil them and love them and the whole nine yards. And in this situation, I can see what the what the mother is talking about. Like, okay, that is a way that she's self-soothing, and they can't do that in school. I can totally understand. And you want to be on the same page with the school when it comes to that way. Like, you don't want to give problems. I totally get that. However, please hug your child. And there are other things that the school can do to help that coincides with the hug. So it's really great knowing that Meredith gets a hug and she feels good. Amazing. Girlfriend wants proprioceptive input. Let's find it other ways that they can be doing it in school. And so that's what it really comes down to. So on their end, they can communicate to the school of like, hey, she had a meltdown. We found that giving her a hug a couple times or tight squeezes really help her. I don't know if this is helpful information to you. That is music to my ears. And I'm like, okay, we're gonna try brushing. We're gonna try compression vest. We're gonna try like some jumping and some tight squeezes or bear hugs, like all those are things that could be happening in the school that give her the same input that she would if she was getting a hug. So you're actually not wrecking anything, you're just giving that same input different varieties. That's essentially what it comes down to.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

And you're giving them good information. This is what we're noticing. And I would imagine that with most kids, I mean our kids are not in school yet, but with most kids, like you are gonna discipline and sue them differently than the school is. Like, yes, you want to be on the same page, but you're not your roles are different, right? Because you're not gonna be doing the same thing at home that you would in a classroom. I would really hope.

SPEAKER_04 39:51

Yeah, like truly, right? But like, yeah, no, but that gives them the idea. Sometimes, weirdly as it sounds, like sometimes the chair that the kid is in is too light. Their body doesn't get that like receptor to be like, I'm sitting in a chair, versus like I put like literally ankle weights on the feet of the chair to weight the chair down, and the kid's like, oh, I'm good. And like they sit up, they're able to attend more. It sometimes even just changes like that, that you're like, boom, and we're good. And so, yeah, but that information, communication is vital. Like, don't be embarrassed by anything. Share that with your team if you're part of if your kids are getting services, share that with your team. It's vital information. Nine times out of ten, they'll be like, that's amazing. Other times we're like, okay, that's useful. Maybe that's more helpful for you know, Joni who does speech, who knows? But that's great for me to know. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

So, not the problem.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

Not the problem. Hug your children, everyone. Hug your children. And also, mom can say whatever she wants. She just had her fourth baby and you know, that's a fair point.

SPEAKER_04 40:56

She's probably like, mmm, say whatever you want. No one let her up to that moment. Was like he paying attention to mom, was he helping with the baby? Who knows? I made her come out with that. Like, she gets a pass. She gets a pass.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Nobody's a problem here.

SPEAKER_02 41:09

No one's a problem. Nobody's a problem. Y'all need to just stop doing so much.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Y'all need to just chill out.

SPEAKER_04 41:21

I mean, really, I'm no, I'm honestly sweating. So yeah, yeah. Like the parents are probably having meltdowns. We're all having meltdowns. We're all having meltdowns. Maybe the dad needed a hug too. So he's like, Meredith, come here.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

Sometimes you need to hug. I swear. And like I get it. Your kids are not supposed to soothe you, right? Like it can go to an extreme. But I have noticed there are times where I am like struggling, and I notice my kids will come up and like hug me or comfort me. And I'm like, oh my gosh, like they know, like they know that like you need them too. And like it's okay to like have that relationship that obviously they're not gonna have with the teacher, right? Like they should not have that with the teacher. There's different roles, different positions.

SPEAKER_04 42:01

Yeah, we never grow out of you know, sensory processing, we never grow out of self-regulation. It just looks different as an adult. You don't really see kids like the adults having tantrums and flying on the on the parking lot. They would be called something else and maybe in a different location if we get what I've drifted. But like we find them different types of ways, right? Like, that's where sports come into play. Those are people who like like to go, they're like the vestibular kids. Like, you just see them older doing sports, and it's socially acceptable. When in reality, they're seeking the input that they need, right? The people who are more lovey dovey, or like who like the sun, or like things along those nodes, that's like more pro people. They want that input to their body, or whatever it may be. If you love different kinds of foods, you are a um an oral person more through and through. And so it's just interesting to see like the roots that you go in based on the input that you liked as a kid, it kind of still goes with you. You just find different ways of finding it that's more socially appropriate.

SPEAKER_02 42:55

I think I kind of thought that that ended when you got older, but that's so fascinating. That no, like it stays with you, it just looks different.

SPEAKER_04 43:02

Yeah, you learn to interact, like so what with kids, like if they're having issues with that, it's that you see the input, it's called like the whole process component. You see the input, you're interpreting it, you're processing, and then you're reacting to it. We do that all through our days. The lights are on, I could flinch or I could just be fine, right? Like the that visual input didn't affect me. The sound, there could be a random noise that goes off and I could scream or flinch. But if I have that integrated, everything's fine. And so, but for kids, that one component might be too heightened or it might be off, and that's where you're seeing the behavior. And so for my job, I'm helping them get to the point of being okay with it. I've literally been in sessions where a fire alarm was consistently going off for the kid because he needed to be okay with it. That's something that we need to get through. It happened in school, and so we've learned to get through that and you pair that with the preferred activity. So he loved Play-Doh. So we would play a play-doh. Meanwhile, the fire alarm on my phone is going off and the whole time. And we've worked our way to be okay. So then once it happened, he could get up and go out instead of having a full-blown meltdown where meanwhile the teacher is trying to get the whole class out. He would have a kid screaming, crying, kicking in the floor, and he won't leave the classroom. Like, that's not safe, right? Based on the environment that we're in of being in a school, and so we had to work through that. And so, yeah, it's just fascinating. And then as I said, when you're older, you just seek it different kinds of ways.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

Yeah, and you know, it's like not only like helping the kid, but it's like helping everybody else. Like, not it's like you know, like you don't see adults like or like having full-blown tantrums. Like, thank God, like we've all found our little methods to now we've gone out of golf, right?

SPEAKER_04 44:40

So, yeah, for sure. Auditory could be more of a mental health component, too. Um, fun fact, I meant to bring this up sooner, but occupational therapy stemmed from mental health. It actually was that's how they started, it was in an asylum, actually. It's not an old profession. I want to say it's anywhere between 50 to 75 years old. Like it's really new.

SPEAKER_02 45:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 45:01

And they found that when going into different mental health facilities and giving people a purpose dramatically changed their mindset. And so, yeah, it was really interesting. And then we've just kind of brought branched out into all different kinds of worlds. Um, but yeah, fan fact. That is fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

I love the world of OT, right? It is so fun, like it really is. I enjoy my job. So good. This is so educational. Yeah. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for sharing.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

How everyone's having you, yeah. Yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_02 45:30

All right.