Why It's So Hard to Leave an Abusive Relationship

When most people hear the words domestic violence, they picture physical abuse. But abuse often begins long before anyone is ever physically harmed.
 

In this episode, licensed professional counselor Theresa shares her expertise working with survivors of domestic violence and intimate partner violence. Together, we unpack the subtle warning signs people often miss, including manipulation, isolation, financial abuse, gaslighting, trauma bonding, and coercive control.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

So the full definition of domestic violence is when an abuser is utilizing abusive tactics to maintain and to gain power and control over their victims. And this could include emotional abuse, psychological abuse, financial abuse, which is not talked about enough. And a lot of times people have been in abusive relationships where it's never gotten physical. They dealt with mostly the psychological, which is just as bad. And the psychological abuse can lead to physical and or sexual abuse as well.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

We're so excited to welcome Teresa to the Modern Therapy Podcast. Teresa has dedicated her career to supporting survivors of domestic violence and sexual violence through counseling, advocacy, prevention education, crisis intervention, and community support services. Through her work, Teresa helps individuals and families navigate some of the most difficult and traumatic experiences while also educating the community on healthy relationships, safety, empowerment, and healing. Today we're diving into the signs of abuse that people often miss, from emotional abuse and coercive control to manipulation, isolation, and trauma bonding. We'll also talk about why abusive relationships can be so difficult to leave, how trauma impacts mental health, and how friends, family members, therapists, and communities can better support survivors in a compassionate and informed way. Let's dive in.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

So we are so excited to have Teresa here today. We are talking about domestic violence. You have been in the field for a while, so you have a lot of expertise on this.

SPEAKER_03 1:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Can you share a little bit about what your background is and how you got into this work?

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Okay. So I'm a licensed professional counselor, and I started working in a mental health field for a while, since like 2013. But then I graduated with my master's back in um early 2016. And then I started working in like uh psychiatric facilities, um, intensive outpatient programs, the private practices, and then I started to draw more of my attention into working with survivors of abuse. Um, and that was in 2018. That's when I started to take that work more seriously, and once I started serving that population, like I stayed, I didn't go anywhere else. Like that was my niche. Like, I I see that there's a great need of not just counseling, but there's a great need of guidance, support, and empowerment for survivors of abuse all around, right? And I do feel like there's such a gap in literature, or there's such a gap or lack of understanding in our society when it comes to working with survivors of domestic violence. I feel like a lot of it's still very much stigmatized. I mean, we've come a long way over the years, but it's still very, very much stigmatized. And I always like to talk about it to bring more awareness to it. It is a touchy subject, it really, really is, but it has to be talked about.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Absolutely. And even in the therapy world, there's a lot of hesitation from providers to even treat survivors sometimes because they think that like they don't know how to help them sometimes. They're scared to do the wrong thing, they're scared to get them in in potentially a more dangerous situation. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Yeah, I think there's a physical component that isn't there in a lot of other areas of care.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Right, you're right, you're right. And then, you know, I I get a lot of referrals from private practices or even intensive outpatient programs from hospitals. Why? Because the therapist will probably say, I don't have much experience working with survivors of abuse, so I'm gonna send them your way. No problem, please send them away. You know, um, I like how a lot of therapists like to work together and make referrals to people when it comes to their area of expertise. And this is one area where definitely I'm an expert in it. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

So when when people hear the term abuse, I think immediately the thought goes to the physical component of abuse, but there's also a huge mental emotional component of abuse that often gets kind of like put to the side. Can you talk through some of the differences and you know kind of what that looks like?

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Absolutely. I think that's a fabulous question because you're right. When people hear the word domestic violence, they hear the word violence, they automatically think of physical. Okay. So sometimes I do like to say domestic abuse. So hopefully people start thinking like it's not just physical. So the full definition of domestic violence is when an abuser is utilizing abusive tactics to maintain and to gain power and control over their victims, right? And this could include um emotional abuse, psychological abuse, financial abuse, which is not talked about enough. And a lot of times people have been in abusive uh relationships where it's never gotten physical, they dealt with mostly the psychological, which is just as bad. And the psychological abuse can lead to physical and or sexual abuse as well. But the other thing when we look at domestic violence, people immediately think of intimate partner violence, right? So there's two, there's a similar definition. The difference is that domestic violence is within any relationships, which means it can happen within family members as well, it can happen at a workplace as well, it can happen among friends, and then there's intimate partner violence where the domestic violence or the abuse is happening between um partners in an intimate relationship.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Yeah, are you finding that it's harder for people to recognize when the other types of abuse are happening, right? Because physical, you know, but the financial, it can you walk through that a little bit? Because that probably happens slowly over time, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:35

It does happen slowly over time, but it also depends on the dynamic, and a lot of people don't recognize that they're going through it. Yeah, right, because there's different avenues to it. For example, somebody might be in an abusive relationship where the abuser probably won't allow them to work, right? And they can it it can either happen, either or they might demand it, or they may kind of sugarcoat it. I'll take care of you. I don't need you to don't don't worry about working. You can stay home, you can relax, you can do this, you can do that. And the victim in the relationship is probably thinking, like, oh, that's great, but without realizing that this is a slow tactic to maintain some sort of power and control over them to slowly but surely take away their freedom, right? And other areas I've seen, like when the victim is working, but they have to give the abuser the money, right? The abuser has access to the money. Other things I've seen is like, let's say the abuser is in control of the finances, but the victim has no idea what's going on with the finances. Now, let's say if they were in a marriage and a divorce was happening, the victim who then becomes the survivor, right? They start to learn a lot of stuff, a lot about the money that was hidden from them, right? And also, I just want to tie in the immigration population as well. I think that's so important to tie in. Based on their immigration status, they definitely go through a lot of financial abuse, especially when they're coming from another country, they may not know the ins and out of the United States, they don't know their legal rights, they don't know the laws, especially if they don't have a working visa, right? And they definitely go through an increased risk of dealing with financial economic abuse as well.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Yeah, it's almost like the way that it's set up for them to come here. It's it's you think about it, you're like, well, you can't always work, right? You don't you can't always get a driver's license at first. Like, there's so many things that you're like, it it it does make them a very vulnerable population because of that.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

It definitely does. I mean, this area, I can go deeper, deep in it. There's so much, so many different tactics. Credit card use when credit cards are being open in their name, stuff like that. I've seen that happen a lot.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Yeah. Yeah. How often are you seeing it being brought to light while they're still in the relationship versus like you were saying before, they're leaving the relationship and now they're like, oh my gosh, where did all the money go, or there's all this debt that I didn't know about?

SPEAKER_02 8:00

I think a lot of times when I'm working with survivors, is when they would tell me that they started to do their own research on what they were going through. Because a lot of times they don't know the terminology, because there's a lot of terminology that comes into this, you know, into domestic violence and tactics of an abuser. So a lot of times when they do their own research, or maybe they have a trusted fan member or a friend that's educated them on it, or when they start coming into therapy, and then I provide them the education on it, and that's when you know it starts to sink in that they were actually going through some financial economic abuse as well, on top of everything else. Yeah. So a lot of it comes with education.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Yeah. Can we talk a little bit about the like the archetype of an abuser and kind of like what that looks like? Because you had mentioned that it's mainly about like power and control. In your experience and the work that you've done, what are some common traits that you've seen among that kind of like abuser archetype?

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Oh, what are some common traits? Oh, see, my mind is racing because there's so many. I think I think it's so important to give like a background on how so much research was done back in the day, and there was more awareness brought up into domestic violence. So, have you ever heard of the cycle of violence? Yes. Okay, so that was created by Lenore Walker back in 1979. Through her research, um, what she was looking into was what is this cycle that's happening within the relationship, right? That the victim feels stuck in that cycle. And through her research, and of course she used survivors of uh domestic violence for her research. So through her research, she identified three areas, and it's you know, um tension building, acute explosion, and then the honeymoon stage. So, you know, the tension building, it's when the victim might start to notice that the abuser is becoming a bit more tense, you know, they find themselves walking around eggshells because they know something's gonna happen. The abuser starts to be a bit more aggressive, right? And then this the victim tried to fawn with them, right? They try to reason with them because they want to avoid that explosion from happening, but it does happen. That's the next stage, the acute explosion stage. And in that stage, that's when the victim decides like, maybe I should go to the police, maybe I go, I should go to a trusted friend and family, maybe I need to leave. If they're married to them, maybe I need to get a divorce. But then the honeymoon stage comes in, and I usually tell people they didn't sign up for the honeymoon stage, right? They didn't sign up. That's the abuser's tactic. I'm sorry, I will never do it again. They probably try to buy them gifts, they probably promise to go to therapy or something like that. Let's do couples canceling, which I tell people does not work. That's another podcast for another time. But um, that's the tactic that I that I noticed, which is a very manipulative tactic, right? Including the gaslighting, right? Including the isolation, the minimizing, the denying, then the blaming the victim's experiences. And what happens is that, you know, um the victim might start to have what I call the false hope, right? And they try to reason with them. They probably have this idea they'll they'll change. I'm gonna help them change, but no matter what they do, they go right back to that tension building stage, and that cycle just continues. But then later on in 1984, the power and control came about, and this was created by the domestic abuse intervention program. Now, what I like with their wheel, it doesn't just talk about the cycle, it talks about the tactics of the abuser. And again, through their research, they utilized survivors of abuse to make sure they capture their lived experiences. Like they wanted the facts, and what they found is that through the power and control wheel, um, which is broken down typically in eight parts, it showed a whole bunch of psychological abuse. Remember, I told y'all, like, you know, it for some people's never gotten physical.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_02 12:01

It no matter what, it always starts with psychological. And in the tactics of an abuser, what you see is the isolation, isolating them from their family members, their friends, their place of work, things that they love, controlling who they see, controlling who they talk to, controlling who they what they wear, right? And there's minimizing and denying and blaming, right? Or what I the gaslighting or the Darvo effect, you know, deny, attack, and reverse the roles of the victim and offender. Well, all of a sudden the victim is questioning their reality, right? They feel like they're going insane, right? They feel like what they just experienced actually didn't happen because sometimes the abuser is that good at psychologically manipulating them. Using children, if children is involved, right? Um, maybe trying to turn the kids against that parent, right, or against that family member, maybe utilizing the kids as threats, like, you know, if if you try to leave, I'm gonna take the kids away, you're never gonna see them again. I'm gonna make sure the kids hate you, which unfortunately does happen because the abusers start engaging in that smear campaign. They're not looking at the impact it has on the children, their goal is just to continue to hurt the victim. Then there's the economic abuse that's in there, there's the coercion and the threats that's in there. So all of these are some tactics that a lot of abusers utilize um within a power and control setting. Because again, their goal is to maintain some sort of power and control, remove their independence, lower their self-esteem, and make them think they can't live independently without them.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Yeah, yeah. Those are a lot of uh terminology that you're using in that are they they're hot buttons, right? Like you see that on social media all the time, like this person's gaslighting me, or you know. Um when does it become abuse versus just maybe normal, like bad relationships?

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Right, bad communication versus they're doing this on purpose to exert power. Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Exactly. See, I use I see that terminology a lot, gaslighted. Some people do use it wrong. Remember, abuse is is is this repeated cycle. It's a repeated cycle of pattern that continues to happen. Um, like for example, let's say a couple is talking and one partner felt as though like, you know, they felt like they were being gaslighted in the situation. Right? And what ways did you feel like you were being gaslighted? However, when the other person, when the other party who was healthy, like let's say they're a healthy person, didn't realize that they were doing what they were doing, they will take accountability and try their best to not do it again, right? When it comes to an abusive relationship, the whole gaslighting situation is literally psychological manipulation and repeatedly happens to the point where it literally affects the victim's mental state. I've seen some of the worst of worst, I tell you.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

I'm sure because the long-term effects of that, of being told over and over, you're making this story up, it never happens. And something that we have seen before is that you know, people who want that power that you don't call them the abusers, yeah. Um, that they can be very charming, especially to other people. So you can have family members being like, what are you talking about? He's so nice. He came to Christmas and he brought me all this stuff. And meanwhile, the victim is sitting there, like, this person is doing all this stuff to me, but they might get to the other family members or the other friends before that person can. So I'm sure you probably see that all the time.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

I see that very, very often. And sometimes the victim will start to think, should I view them how everybody else is viewing them? Yeah. Right? Because out in public, they're very charming. But then behind closed doors, there you go, Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

So, how much of that starts to feel like your own fault? Because if they can be nice to everyone else and they can be charming to everyone else, what is it about me that makes them explode? Why am I causing this? How do you start to undo that with victims?

SPEAKER_02 16:00

You know, the education piece as well, because a lot of them don't even realize what's happening. So educating them on, you know, power and control, gaslighting, psychoalliance, trauma bonding, all those terminologies, and also listing the examples of what they have experienced and kind of tie it back to that, you know, this is your story, your heart knows your truth, this is what really happened, right? It may take a while though. It may take a while for them to come to terms with that they're in an abusive relationship. Just because the victims are coming to me for counseling doesn't mean that they are not yet they're not ready to say, you know, I'm in an abusive relationship or in an abusive family dynamic, right? So a lot of time is just the like continuing to have that conversation and utilizing different, you know, therapeutic interventions to help them get to that point. You know, the most we can do as therapists honestly is plant the seed and hoping that they water it. Because I always remind myself if they're actively still with the abuser, after our therapy session, they go back home to that. A lot may happen when they go back home to that.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Do you do you ever see that where therapy like becomes a big problem? Because I imagine a lot of abusers actively do not want their partners even in therapy, right? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

So it is encouraged for their safety if if they can to not say that they're in therapy. I've had some tell me, you know, they don't know I'm here. I said that's great. Working in domestic advice agency to the point, and it's part of their safety, they'll come up with a lie as to where they were. It's part of their safety. I have dealt with people that said, I feel like I'm lying, I feel guilty, but then at the same time, they're like, I'm trying to stay alive here. This is why I'm doing this. Project yourself.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

So let's let's talk about that a little bit. Like, you know, you you have somebody who's in an abusive relationship, you know. I I imagine if they're in therapy and they've gotten to the point where maybe they they want to get out of it, right? Because not all the not every time they want to get out. Like they have to have to hit that point.

SPEAKER_03 18:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

So, you know, somebody gets to that point where they want to exit the relationship. What happens and how do you help that person, you know, navigate that scenario?

SPEAKER_02 18:14

Leaving is the most dangerous time. Yeah, keep that in mind. Leaving is the most dangerous time. I hear people say it, but not enough. Um, lately in New Jersey, I'm sure y'all seen on the news, there has been a lot of intimate partner homicide happening, not just in Jersey, but nationwide, and there has been a lot of murder suicide happening. And a lot of times when I do some research as to what happened, I would hear that you know the victim was trying to leave, or they recognized the abuse was happening, they started catching on to the abuser, unfortunately. So every case that I work with is very unique. That's the thing. Very unique. Safety planning should be like the top most important thing in a therapy session when it comes to working with survivors of abuse, especially those that are actively in the relationship or dealing with that family dynamic, and they want to leave. Like they tell me they want to leave. We gotta go through some intense safety planning. But it's really based on getting to know you know the client that you're working with as well. Because again, every case that I work with is very, very unique. So depending on their situation, the safety planning might be okay, like sometimes they'll find trackers in their car and their phone. We gotta talk about how to do safety planning with that. If children is involved, we have to do safety planning with children. If you have fam members that are very involved, we got a safety plan with them too, because they're a threat, right? You're work if you're working, we got a safety plan with that. If you want to get a restraining order, we got a safety plan with that. What's important providing them with a lot of different resources that's available to them as well, because they need community. Because if you notice the victims, when they start speaking up and they become the survivor, they get isolation. Abusers tend to get community, and that's what they need community. So providing them the different professional resources and always following up with them in regards to the resources, giving them that safe sp space or safe place to process through the trauma. Because remember, sometimes they go through life feeling like they're they blame themselves for what's happening, and you know, some of them feel as though that um when they talk about it, people shame them, guilt treat them, call them liars, starting making excuses for the abuser. So, first things first is creating that safe space and letting them know I hear what you're saying, I believe in what you're saying, and your heart knows your truth. So, just to answer your question, definitely safety planning is like the most important thing, but getting to know them in regards to how can I create a good safety plan for you, an interactive safety planning to protect you.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

And you mentioned kids being involved, which unfortunately happens a lot. How often are the kids also a part of the actual abuse versus they're kind of on the peripheral of it, or is there any way to actually separate if their parent is in this situation, like you're in this situation too?

SPEAKER_02 21:09

And a lot of people forget that the kids are heavily impacted, yeah. Teenagers as well, young adults, all of them. So in the United States, 12 million people are survivors of abuse. Wow. Victims of abuse, I should say. That I know that is a lot. Two years ago it was 10 million and went up to 12 million.

SPEAKER_03 21:27

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

And um that also includes, again, a psychological, physical, sexual harassment stalking. Fifteen million children are exposed to the abuse.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

And more than half of those children that are exposed to the abuse are actually also being abused by the abuser, right? So what happens with the children is that they are at increased risk of becoming abusers themselves or actually being a victim of abusive abuse. Relationships because you know they tend to stick to what they know. Okay. But it also has a heavy impact on their mental health. I've seen you know increased risk of suicidal ideations, increased risk of cutting, behavioral concerns, depression, anxiety, PTSD. Maybe later on in life, unfortunately, like a personality disorder is like start to develop and stuff like that, conduct conduct disorder and stuff like that starts to develop. So a lot of times people forget how it impacts the children who are exposing it. And I've seen cases where you know things had to go to trial, right? Because it got that bad. And then kids had to be involved in that. Kids had to do like a testimony or something like that. That's hard for them. That's so terrifying. It's very impactful. Right? Yeah, they go to school. Some of them probably won't be able to focus in school because they're being exposed to the abuse that's happening in their home. And I always remind people, children they eventually become adults. And I work with adults. I cannot tell you how many times the adults, as you already know, they often bring up something that happened during their childhood. And a lot of victims of domestic violence, like intimate partner violence, I should say, a lot of them have told me they grew up in a household where abuse was very present or they were being abused or they were exposed to it, and it was normal to them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

So a lot of the time you're seeing in the adults that are in abusive situations that they have some kind of historic uh experience with that themselves.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Yeah, it's something even when we do couples counseling, you know, one of the first things you go over is what is your family of origin? What were the relationships like that you were around? What were your parents' relationships like? Because even if they're in a healthy relationship now, it's, you know, what skills are you still taking from there? Or unfortunately, individuals were like, I keep getting into these toxic relationships that I don't know why. And we peel back the layers. It's like, look what you grew up with. This is what you thought was normal. And even if you're an adult and you can look back and say, okay, well, like that wasn't okay that that happened, it doesn't mean you can magically undo all of it. It still impacts you, it still affects you. It does.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

You know, speaking of couples counseling, I know like a lot of couples in an abusive scenario want to try to lean on couples counseling. You know, you had you had mentioned very clearly your opinion on that about it not, you know, being that effective in these situations. Can you speak to that a little bit of why it doesn't work?

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Oh my goodness. So I was always taught that if you're doing couples counseling and you find out that there's IPv happening and some partner violence, ethically you should end it. Because how are we going to reach our therapeutic goals if there's abuse happening? The abuser will have to stop right to laugh at that. Rare that they do, right? And all of it's not safe. It is not safe for the other partner who's the victim of the vi of the abuse that's happening, but it's also not safe for the therapist either. Right? So they're supposed to end it. That's something I was always taught. Legally, ethically, the couples' therapists are supposed to end it and probably provide, you know, appropriate individual referrals, right? And also, what happens in couples counseling as well, if there's domestic violence happening in the relationship, the victim might be too afraid to speak up. The victim might be too afraid to actually address the abuse that's happening in the relationship. So, how are we gonna reach some goals in therapy?

SPEAKER_01 25:35

You know, how's this treatment gonna work? And God forbid they do say something. What are the ramifications of the thing?

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Once that session's over, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

Yeah, right. Yeah, a lot may happen. And I've had I've worked with clients who told me that couples there it did not go well. You know, the uh the abuse escalated when they got home on a car ride home. Um, some felt as though that the therapist chose the abuser side too. And that can happen if the therapist doesn't have awareness. Right, or if they don't realize that the abuse is happening, and that actually um stares that survivor away from actually seeking individual treatment because they're thinking, like, well, then if this couple's therapist chose their side or made excuses for them, then what therapist is gonna listen to me? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

That's just gonna keep happening. Yeah, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

I know sometimes like even like regular couples' counseling like can get very intense, right? And sometimes like we think about all of the sessions that are happening in modern therapy, and sometimes I wonder how many uh fights occur like that modern therapy has caused, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Sometimes it gets worse before it gets better.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Sometimes it's worse before it's better. I hear you, I hear you. But that's the thing. Couples argue, couples fight again with domestic violence, it's a repeated, you know, pattern, repeated cycle to maintain power and control. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

I think like one of the very difficult parts of domestic violence is being the third party, right? Of like not being in the relationship, but like seeing it. Maybe you're a parent, maybe you're a a child, a daughter, a son, and you see what's going on, and like you just are faced with how do I address this? So can you speak to that a little bit?

SPEAKER_02 27:22

You mean when like the outside person is looking at their loved one who's getting Yeah, maybe they don't know what to do. Maybe they don't know what to do. First things first, hard pill to swallow. You can't rescue them. You can't rescue them. And you know, a lot of people don't like to hear the word abuse, they don't want to hear that they're in an abusive relationship or an abusive dynamic that kind of might push them away. You know, for the most part, um I have received phone calls from the survivors or the victims, um, fan members or friends. I have. Because they were concerned, right? And again, the most I will tell them, unfortunately, we cannot rescue them, but you know, also asking them if they want therapy because it takes an emotional toll, an impact on them. A lot of people don't realize that the loved ones on the outside are heavily impacted by it as well, especially the victim has uh there's a history of going to the loved ones to talk about it, maybe at some point leaving the abuser, moving in with to that loved one to go back to the abuser. It has an emotional toll or an impact on the loved one. They're scared, right? They're really scared of something terrible happening, but also they become a target for the abuser as well, right? So, usually letting them know, unfortunately, you cannot rescue them, right? You have talked to them, you cannot force them to see it. You definitely don't want to push them away, but you want to let them know that I'm here if anything. You got to set strong boundaries because believe this, abusers' number one tactic is isolation, right? When they sh feel like they can't isolate their victim from their loved ones, that loved one becomes a heavy target. And I've seen some scary cases, some really scary cases.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

So you have to protect yourself in that situation. You got to. But being that person, hey, I'm here if you need it, but that's so challenging. If someone's coming to you and just closing all this stuff about their spouse, and then they're just going back home to them, that you have to feel so out of control in that moment. Like, I can't really do anything here.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

You can't, you can't, you can't speak to them. But you gotta protect your peace as well, you gotta have some strong boundaries with them as well. And you have to, I usually tell like the loved ones, ask yourself, let's say the victim comes back to you in the future, and this time they're like, they're serious, they're done. Ask yourself, what's your role in that moment? Do you want to get involved or not? Right? But but protect yourself at all costs because a lot of people don't realize the support system are such a target, such a target for the abuser. You've seen cases where, again, I said murder suicides tend to happen. There was one in South Jersey where the ex-husband not only um did he kill her, his ex-wife, but he also killed her parents. Uh-huh. Because she had lived back home um with her parents, right? And there is a lot of um domestic violence films or series out there, which I'm I'm so proud they're out there now. No, they're triggering, but it's bringing more awareness. Yeah. Dirty John is a very popular one, right, on Netflix if y'all haven't seen it. The John Mehan story. Oh, it's a true story. Deborah, I forgot her last name, but she was the survivor in the story. She was based off in California, doing her thing, made all this money. Um, had four, three or four adult children. Um, she's been married and divorced several times. She meets John online, and one of her daughters did not like him. When she first met him, now she's like, Ma no. Right? Because you know what happens when you're not in the relationship, you're the person on the outside looking in. You see the red flags first, right? Her daughter did not like him, her son did not like him, the nephew started to get suspicious, the younger daughter started to get suspicious. So he was a mess. He was he was definitely the utilized all the tactics of abuse. He was very scary. He did some of the most bizarre things, but there was a lot of trauma bonding happening in that relationship. However, once Debbie, you know, there's a history leaving going back, but once she was officially done, he went after her family. Um, her one daughter, the one that didn't like him from the beginning, lost her job. Right? Because he was harassing her through her job. And then this the youngest daughter, he tried to kill her in broad daylight. She was walking into her apartment complex with her dog, and um, he attacked her from behind with a knife. She fought him off and killed him out of self-defense. Wow. Yes. This is a couple years ago.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

And her and her mother have been on Dr. Phil. They have there's a Netflix series on them. We're gonna have to watch that now. Dirty John, yes, yes, yes. Um, do some self-care afterwards, yeah. I mean triggers are so heavy to watch. Yes, yes. And also, um, they've been on the show Evil Live Here to talk about it. But I do remember seeing an interview with her daughter. She did say this whole thing did put a strain on her relationship with her mother.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Yeah, how could it not? Because you're thinking my parent is going to always protect me and always put me first. But that doesn't always happen in these relationships. And you hear all the time, like, what kind of parent would do that? Just leave him, just leave him. But as you went over all these reasons, it's not always that easy.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

It's really not that easy. And of course, who would have thought he would have gone after her children? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

You know, the way that he did. So when you talk about like what is setting boundaries look like in those scenarios when you're dealing with like family members, like definitely physical boundaries.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

Y'all know there's like what they say, six different types of boundaries, right? Physical boundaries is very important. I've dealt with fam members that were very angry and they wanted to have a conversation with the abuser, they wanted to fight with the abuser, arguments will have. I'm like, that's one of the worst things you can do. Because in their mind they're thinking, like, well, I'm protecting my loved one. That's so tempting, though, I'm sure in those situations. But I tell people, think about what it might do to your loved one and to you. Yes. Okay. You know, abusers, they don't care. They're gonna do what they want to do. They don't have the insight to realize that they're abusers, they lack accountability, they don't care who they hurt or what they do, they want to continue to maintain power and control, right? Um, so physical boundaries is so important, emotional boundaries as well. I've seen a lot of divisions in families because um a family member is in a relationship where domestic violence is present, right? I've seen a lot of divisions, and um I usually encourage the fan members, if you're not already in therapy, maybe look into that to process through that pain and the grief in therapy as well. There's not too many research on the emotional impact it has on fam members or even friends, um, but there are a little bit of research out there of how it affects them mentally, physically, and emotionally as well. You know, as therapists, we go through compassion fatigue, vicarious trauma, and stuff like that. So do the loved ones. And a lot of people tend to forget that.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

Yeah, I think that's such an important point, is that you have to take care of yourself and you have to protect yourself as well. And then you can be there for that person in the future in whatever that capacity might look like for you. But it has to be exhausting to think, okay, today's the day they're gonna leave, today's the day, and then they don't, or then they show up with them to a family event and you're like, no, like that wasn't that wasn't the plan.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Yeah, I think um just taking a moment like to just pause, and because you do want to like if like I'm just putting myself in the shoes of someone that is seeing a loved one get abused, and uh my initial gut reaction would just be like confrontation, like let me go in there, let me save them, right? But it's much more complicated than that. So I think I think just like taking that moment of being like, Hey, let me think about how is this gonna impact my loved one and myself and realizing that you can't rescue them, especially if they're not ready to be helped.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

Yeah, you know, not so hard. Yeah, it is it is very hard. Not every case is different, but I hoped the loved ones realize like I can't rescue them and I need to have a safety plan in for myself just as much as they have a safety plan for themselves as well, you know.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

And you mentioned before that most abusers don't change. Do some of them do they ever change?

unknown 36:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

I've heard the news.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Should there ever be hope that they are gonna change?

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Yeah, I mean, you know, there's such a thing called abuse intervention programs for them, you know, to seek long-term treatment for it. However, what happens is that a lot of them lack the accountability, right? And remember, they're good at gaslighting. Well, people don't realize they're so good at it because they gaslight themselves first. That's what starts to happen. So, whatever scenario they created, whatever narrative they created, that's it. That's what it was. That's their reality. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

There's like some kind of abuser playbook that all these abusers just read and they all It's like have this running joke.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

It's like they all went to the same academy, the same university. But remember with the research by Lenore Walker or the research by the domestic interviews, uh domestic abuse intervention program, the power and control, the cycle of violence, this is it. These are the tactics of an abuser. It does feel like they all went to school together or something like that. They utilize similar tactics.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

And it makes you question if they're going into treatment, what is the reason behind it? Why are they doing it? And you know, we always talk about at modern therapy, it really takes a special type of therapist to even be able to work with that population. It does. Because if you are triggered by that in some way, if you feel like you cannot be on the same page as that person, we will not force you to try to be like we understand that, right? They need a certain type of provider who's even going to be able to like have that first session to even begin with, because that's a really challenging population to work with.

SPEAKER_02 37:43

It is, and that shouldn't say none of them can, some of them can with you know taking accountability and be willing to take treatment very seriously, and also being paired up with a therapist that can that has the uh skills and knowledge and utilize the effective interventions to provide them with some therapy, yeah, you know, so it's possible.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Yeah, I think maybe the best way to combat abusive relationships is to avoid getting in them, like if we're talking about intimate partners, right? Like, so what are some red flags that people can look for when they're out there dating? Uh, of what to look for and potential warning signs.

SPEAKER_02 38:18

First of all, trust your intuition, trust your gut feeling. I cannot tell you how many times I've been told, you know, right early on in the relationship, I noticed red flags. And what were those red flags? And then I get a whole scenario of what happened, and they notice that those red flags continue on throughout their relationships, right? It's a cycle of patterns, right? Also, I know a lot of people talk about the love bombing, right? In the beginning, they want to move very fast, you know, they probably shower you with gifts, right? But also, the number one tactic or the first tactic they utilize is the isolation when they start to isolate you from your loved ones, and they tend to pick on the people that are closest to you. All of a sudden, they don't like that friend or that fam member, they don't like your mom, your dad, your brother, your sister, your cousin, or your best friends, and they always have to have some sort of reasons as to why they don't like that person, right? Then, next thing you know, control starts to happen, controlling what you wear, who you see, who you go to, wanting to know all of your whereabouts. That's not cute when such behaviors happen. That is a way to uh trap you, right? But also trauma bonding, and I I I know people use that terminology a lot, and they don't use it. Some people don't use it correctly. I often hear people say, Oh, I was hanging out with my friend and we trauma bonded. We talked, we talked about our traumas. We asked me something like that's a TikTok definition. I know, like no, yeah, that's a TikTok definition. So my hopes is that more people will understand what trauma bonding is because a lot of times it happens very early on in the relationship. So it came the term came out back in 1981 by two psychologists, um, Donald Dutton and Susan Painter, because they wanted to do a study on the emotional attachment that victims starts to develop with abusers. And it wasn't until 1993 they started to do further research and the word trauma bonding started to come into play. Some people don't realize that word has been out there forever. Because what they found is that trauma bonding develops because when there's negative reinforcement happening or abusive tactics happening in the relationship, and the next thing you know, some positive reinforcement starts to come in, like the honeymoon phase that we talked about earlier. That's the trauma bonding. The victim starts to bond with the moments that felt good, right? Or they start to bond with the honeymoon station, they start to develop this very strong emotional attachment with the abuser. So that's what trauma bonding is.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

And that probably is the part that they're that is probably the part that they want to share with the people around them the most. Look at this trip they took me on, look at this gift they got me. And they might not be mentioning all the stuff that happened last week because they know the response that they're gonna get if they share that. So I'm sure a lot of times when victims start to actually share this stuff with people, people around them are probably like, Whoa, where did this come from? Like, we didn't even know this was happening.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Exactly, exactly. Because then also what starts to happen is that a lot of times the victim is in denial as well. Because y'all know what happens when you get out of the denial stage, right? Once you start to accept what's happening, you come into reality, all these emotions start to come out. And I call it the purge. Exactly. And then they have to face, you know, they have to say, like, do I stay or do I go? Right? Yeah, and that's a tough decision to make. So I said, leaving is the most dangerous thing. You know, I usually encourage them, if you want to leave, maybe not say it in the moment. Some people don't make it out alive, if you know what I mean. Yeah. So either that happened or the abuser become extremely, extremely nice to them and try to suck them back in. Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 42:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

And now, when you talk about intimate partner violence, so many people are just thinking immediately, it's the husband against the wife. What what are the different forms that you see? And how common is it that that is the situation?

SPEAKER_02 42:22

Uh that is because remember, back in the day with the research, they often will talk about batters woman syndrome, of course. Right. And again, here's that word batters because a lot of people think it's just physical. Yeah. Now, again, psychological is abuse, and it usually starts with psychological. But nowadays in society, we're starting to see more male victims speak up, right? Whether they're being abused by a male or a female. Yeah, yeah. So I hope there's more awareness that it's not only just women that are victims and and um that are not that it's not only women that are victims in intimate partner violence, males as well. And it also happens a lot in the LGBTQ community. That's something that tends to get ignored a lot. But slowly but surely, I'm starting to see a lot of more male survivors coming in to treatment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

Yeah, they're talking about, and when you even mentioned before that with domestic violence, it's not necessarily even, you know, spousal or in relationships, it's all these other relationships that you're in. And people might not put that together. That it could be in the workplace, that it could be with a parent or someone else, because that's not where your mind goes when you think about that topic.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

I've seen it all. I've seen um uh adult parent being abused by the elderly parent being abused by the adult child. Yeah, sibling abuse is a big thing too. Um, abuse within step families, abuse with aunts and uncles, cousins. I've seen it all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

If you could maybe just like speak one powerful sentence. Sentence to someone who's in that position right now, what would you tell them?

SPEAKER_02 44:05

A powerful sentence. Let me see. Not to put you on the spot. Well, I just want to remind them your heart knows your truth. And you feel alone, right? You're not alone. There's so many resources out there. Become familiar with the resources that are available to you, and the resources are confidential. Take advantage of those resources. And uh you're not crazy. Often when I'm working with survivors, they will tell me I'm not crazy. No, you're not, because that's how it feels. That's how they feel, especially when the gaslighting comes into play. Gaslighting leaves long-term psychological impact on them, I tell you. So the main thing I would tell a lot of people in this situation is that your heart knows your truth. You're not alone. You know, take advantage of those resources out there. Document what you need to document. And there's people out there, people like me, people like you guys who are willing to help. You know, just come find us. We're here. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Beautifully said. So we end every episode with an Am I the Problem, which we pull from Reddit. So these are real people with real scenarios out there. So we are going to read you a scenario, and we kind of already dabbled on this topic, but just curious what your opinion is. So, me, 39-year-old female, my best friend, who's a 43-year-old female, is engaged to a male who's a 38-year-old male. They're all between 38 and 43. Gotcha. Recently, he's been hiding her keys, making plans without telling her to interfere with time with her friends. For example, she was supposed to come spend the weekend with me and her godson, and he told her he had made an appointment for her to get her plates renewed on a Saturday. So I told her he was being controlling and manipulative. But it's scary to think what else he would do to her or lie about. Now her fiance, of course, found out what I said because he took her phone while she was napping. She has a lot of physical disabilities and her mental health is shattered as well due to her physical health taking a toll on her body. He not only confronted me on Facebook due to her physical health taking a toll Oh no, sorry. He not only confronted me on Facebook, but used her phone to block me on all her social media, which she found out from another mutual friend and fixed it all. But she says it's just his ADHD, a learning disability, that causes these issues. I told her I get that, may play a part, but he refuses to get help, gaslights her all the time, and then blames others, aka me, for brainwashing her, and that there is nothing wrong with their relationship. I talked to a coworker about this, and she said that I could be the problem because it's not my place to say anything, and I need to let her learn the hard way or learn from her mistakes. But I think I need to help protect her as her friend because she's tied before she's tied to him through marriage. So I know we touched on a couple of those topics already, but what is your if someone calls you with this scenario, what are you telling them?

SPEAKER_02 46:59

Oh my goodness. Again, as I said before, you can't rescue them. And I noticed that when she tried to tell her friend, what does she use the word manipulation, all that stuff? That could have, you know, steered the friend away. Because, you know, a lot of times when they're in the relationship, especially early on, and she's planning a wedding, she may be in denial about what's really happening right now. Because her thought is thinking about the future with this person. Make maybe thinking about who he can potentially become. And the friend, I understand where the friend is coming from. She cares about her friends, she wants to support her friend, she don't want anything bad to happen to the friend, but that can make things more dangerous for the both of them, right? So always keep that in mind. And all you can do really is just plant the seed. I don't think that friend is the problem. The friend is concerned, she's scared, right? Especially if that friend has history of going to her and telling her these things. I think sometimes when we're dealing with people that ask us well, that tells us about what they're going through, they may not want advice, they probably just want to talk. So the friend has to like, you know, think about that. Does she want advice or does she want me to just listen? But also the friend has the right to set those boundaries. Maybe there's a point the friend doesn't want to hear it anymore. Yeah, she has the right to say to her, you know, at this moment right now, I it it takes an emotional toll on me to hear all of this. So um please no longer bring this to my attention or something like that. The friend can say, but also the friend should set some strong boundaries because it is impacting her heavily, you know, to the point where she's even bringing it into work. Right. Oh, she's putting it on Reddit, she's putting it on Reddit. But I get her because she is so concerned.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_02 48:41

It comes from love, it does come from love, it comes from love, it comes from fear, but also keep in mind we see the red flags before they do, because we're outside of the relationship, right? We're not going through like what they call the butterflies or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 48:57

Yes, and it's interesting because you said you can become also a victim of this person. And as soon as she started saying something, he took the friend's phone and he's blocking her on Facebook. And you see how they can get so entrenched in it. She's probably not invited to the wedding. Yeah, she's probably not gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

I don't think she'd be the fate of honor anymore. No, no, he's probably gonna because I hear that a lot too. He's probably gonna remove her from all of that.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

Yeah, all of that to tread lightly. That was so good. It was so informative. You really are the expert in this topic. And how, if someone is listening to this and unfortunately they do resonate with some of the stuff we're talking about. What are some resources out there, maybe specifically in New Jersey, that people can search for?

SPEAKER_02 49:38

Oh, the National Domestic Hotline. If you Google it, call that number. It's 24-7. Amazing. Call that number. And if you need to go to a domestic violence agency that's local, then they will direct you to the right people or the right agency to speak with. You know, always start with that. Always start with that for sure.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

Amazing. This was so informative. Thank you for everything that you do for all the survivors and victims that you work with. And just like so, so grateful that there are people out there like you who are doing this work because it is you're literally saving lives, and it's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 50:16

Yes, thank you. Thanks for having me again. I always want to bring awareness into this community because more more understanding needs to be um happening when among survivors of abuse. It's trust me, a lot of them want out, but it's not easy to get out. Yeah, it's really not. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.