Sukhpal Saini (Winner of Lovable Hackathon) | Episode #23

A new chapter begins as Mallory joins the crew as a co host and sharpens our focus on the brand, community, and content moves that actually compound for AI startups. We swap stories about stamina and setbacks, from API approval limbo to error loops and locker-room fatigue and why recovery is a growth habit, not a luxury. Then we dive into one of the cleanest startup playbooks we’ve heard in a while with hackathon winner and builder extraordinaire, Sukhpal Saini, the winner of the Lovable Hackathon.

Sukh walks us through a ruthless validation loop: find domain-specific problems with insiders, price the pain ($10 vs $1,000 vs $10,000), pitch two options, and collect real dollars before you write code. He shares how he’s built 36 products, why many “good tools” are bad businesses, and how engineers can learn to sell with a simple 30-minute call structure—rapport, discovery, permissioned demo, objections, and an immediate close. No vague pipelines. No “let’s circle back.” Just clear steps that lead to decisions.

Enjoy the convo, share it with a builder who needs a nudge, and subscribe for more honest playbooks on AI branding, customer acquisition , and growth. Got a validation win or war story? Drop us a note and leave a review, your insights fuel what we explore next.

Transcript

New Co-Host Mallory Joins

SPEAKER_03 0:10

What's everybody? We're back. This is episode twenty-three of the AI Code Central Podcast. And we have a very special guest, uh slash new co-host and announcement. Uh Mallory, welcome to the AI Code Central Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

This is so exciting. I mean, I know I was just on the previous episode, but to now join both Charlie and Connor to be on this podcast is exciting. So thrilled.

SPEAKER_04 0:40

We are thrilled. You crush it, Mallory. Seriously, the last couple times we've spoken, I'm just like enamored by everything you kind of have to say. So I'm like super stoked just to have you on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

I appreciate it. And honestly, like I've already learned so much from the both of you as well. So this is gonna be fun. We're gonna have a good time.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

We are very much looking forward to it. Did you guys hear that? No. Oh, you didn't hear? Oh, I was playing the DJ Airhorn.

SPEAKER_04 1:06

No, no, that's because of our our new podcast mics are so in tune with just us, Charlie, that they don't pick up any outside noise or interference. So well, that was a hard fail.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Well, anyway, we need to have like zoom effects or something, like zoom sound effects where we can like you know, do the air horn or like I would love to do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

Wait, is that a thing? Can we do that? I don't even know that's a thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

They get on the three podcasts where they do all those sounds when they're talking, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:34

Yeah, I love that. I kind of like that stuff. I think it kind of helps video shows that something that they repeat over and over again.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

Yeah, I think that would be like uh I used to listen to Love Line like way back in the day, and that was like one of the funniest parts, like the the drops and everything.

SPEAKER_04 1:47

Love line?

SPEAKER_03 1:48

Yeah, well, I I'm oh my god, I'm I I literally just aged myself. I'm 40. So back in high school, it was like this like it was hosted by a doctor and and a comedian. So people would call in and it's like, oh, like uh I got oh geez, how do I say this? Um I I'm on like this kind of birth control, and I like I can't believe what I mean. Medication, sure. Yeah, like let's just say medication. Uh I'm having this kind of sexual dysfunction, and then but the comedian would Charlie, how dare you say that? And say that I know. And the comedian, it was like really, really funny, and it was like this national radio show, but they always had drops. It was it was like a background sound effect, and it was like so well time, it was so funny. It was so they're on YouTube, it was very nostalgic, but we gotta figure that out.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

I remember like we could do memes, but then we can mix it in with like terrible marketing jargon, right? That nobody wants to hear that that just could get the people going, you know what I mean? Yeah, or hit the thing.

Banter On Sound Effects And Nostalgia

SPEAKER_04 2:44

I think really just like perk them up after they're just like, what are these guys talking about? And then all of a sudden, just boom, sound effect, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Yeah, like so uh Mallory, what's okay, what will our listeners and viewers get uh with with your expertise? Because I like the that final piece of the trifecta of this podcast has been just slammed right in front of them. So what will they get?

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Absolutely. So a few things. One, when it comes to brand, community, and content marketing, that is just my bread and butter. And it's great because that I'm doing this podcast because I've had so many folks as of recent, I was just telling Charlie this before we decided to record that I've been getting inbound of people that are just interested in learning more about what it takes to be a brand marketer, you know, how can they actually approach building an amazing, well-rounded community for their brand, you know, how can they approach, you know, creating organic content, what channels should they look into? I've just been getting a lot of questions. And so I'm excited to be here with Charlie and Connor because I think this is a wonderful time to figure out how I can share more of this knowledge with the world. So there's that. I think when it comes to my experiences around working at early stage startups, specifically in games and AI and tech overall, I'm happy to share a lot of those stories with our listeners. And of course, when it comes to just like team building and culture, which I'm very big on, I love managing people and working with teams and working with folks. Like, I can definitely provide some insight to that as well. So those are some of the things that you'll be hearing from me. Also, I love salad sandwiches from 7-Eleven in Japan. So you might hear me talk a little bit about that too.

SPEAKER_04 4:30

Oh, you're a bit you're like the big fan of the like the Japanese 7-Elevens?

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:35

I wish they had one over here. No, I don't, I they look amazing. Every time I watch them on like social media, they it's the melt bread, right? Isn't it like the really soft, squishy bread?

SPEAKER_02 4:44

And the cake salad is like so like mixed together.

SPEAKER_04 4:47

So it looks amazing. I've always I they have some here around New York City where I try and like replicate it, and for some reason I take a bite and it's good, but I feel like it's just it's not the same. Like really doesn't really satisfy. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

And I'm just putting this out there because maybe we'll be lucky and 7-Eleven will sponsor us one day. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 5:05

So or we can go on a trip to Japan and do the podcast from there. That's a that's that would be gangster. Those are true aspirations of growth right there. We're able to get to Japan to do podcasts.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Oh, which actually, so I get a lot of folks that are like, oh, like if I were to like look into mascots, like I want to maybe think about a mascot for my brand. Where would I get inspo? Of course, Pinterest, but Japan. Good, get like get on a plane and go to Japan. You will get so much inspo because there's a character for everything, there's a character for the neighborhood, the transportation line you're about to take when you're walking and you see sewer covers, which are usually brown and gross, beautiful paintings that are so cute. Like they just do character building and mascots so well. So that's a hot tip. Like, if you're looking to get some inspo and go to Japan to get said, I just want to go to Japan.

SPEAKER_04 5:56

I just want to go to Japan. I just have friends who came back from there and they said everybody I've spoken to, they say it's like one of the best places in the world to go visit. It's like everyone's super friendly, food is great, like very nice, clean is like one of the biggest things I always get. Super, super clean and well organized over there, like infrastructure-wise, it's really set up well. So oh, I'm jealous talking like that when living in New York City. Well, I'm in New York City, you know, it's okay. Yeah, yeah. Different world here than I'm sure it is over there. I saw that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

But well, as we um, as we catch up, uh, we're gonna start with Mallory. Mallory, tell us about your last week. What what have you been up to? Your world, as we say, you walk in the line of entrepreneurship.

Mallory’s Expertise In Brand And Community

SPEAKER_00 6:38

I'm walking the line. Unemployment and employment. So last week's been great. Um outside of just like resting and getting all these appointments that I need to get done right now. I have been talking to various startups in the space and just kind of starting to put my feelers out there and building relationships. And it's been really interesting to just see where people are at right now and where the AI space is at and what people are thinking about. Um, so that's been kind of cool. I went to a haunted house called Tarot.

SPEAKER_04 7:09

I love haunted houses.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Here in San Francisco, it was a haunt, a 90-minute haunted house, but had live action in it, and which is like they had actors actually acting out the the sort of story that takes you through the whole haunted house, which is very different from what I've usually experienced, but it was super fun. Um, it wasn't like the scariest thing ever. I take I feel like it takes a lot for me to be scary with haunted houses, but it was still really worth it. Um, I did a Halloween party with my niece. We were decorating cupcakes, you know.

SPEAKER_04 7:38

All the Halloween stuff. We love it. It's cool.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Like, so I feel like that's that's been my week. It's been kind of festive, it's been restful, and I've been chilling.

SPEAKER_04 7:47

So I love I love Halloween. That's my favorite holiday. I'm sad it's almost over. I'm to the point. Yeah, I think I told you Charlie, but Matt, like my my wife and I were just big like fall fanatics. We got today's her anniversary, actually. It's her two-year anniversary. So we got married the end of October, and it was like after Labor Day was over. I've never decorated this early, but her name's Zoe. She just like she walks down, she's like, let's go get the Halloween decorations at the time. I'm like, it's still 80 degrees out. I was like, I don't want to yet, but lo and behold, they've been up for the past two months. And I'm gonna be very scared to take them all down when it's over.

SPEAKER_03 8:24

But well, uh anything else new with on in your world cover?

SPEAKER_04 8:29

Um, besides the anniversary stuff, let me think through here. Anything really, really new. Well, okay, so it's not anything too interesting, but semi-interesting. I was supposed to go to Jamaica um next weekend, and they are apparently about to get, or probably in the midst of getting like absolutely like they could be flammed. Like I hope not, right? I know a few people down there. Let me take a step back. So I actually helped a gentleman property manage one of his villas down there, right? I just like got hooked up with it somehow. So I take like all incoming like Airbnb inquiries, like Virgo, Expedia. People just reach out on the website, and it and for doing that, like whenever somebody books, I get a little bit of the cut of what it is, right? So it's a nice, you know, partnership I have there. I was supposed to go down there this weekend um coming up to go take pictures and update all the listings and everything. I was gonna go down there for a couple days, relax, get some sun in, and that does not look very likely right now. So I've been keeping in touch with a few people I know down there, just uh keeping them in my thoughts and everything. But yeah, that was that was kind of the big shakeup the past couple days, has been deciding whether or not I'm going. The flight's still on schedule, but I just I highly doubt they're gonna even let people in Jamaica unless you're going there for you know to help clean up or whatever there might be that happens. And listen, maybe there is it isn't that bad and it blows over without an issue, but um yeah, that was kind of one of the big things. Again, feel really bad for for the people down there and unfortunately won't be able to make it down to Jamaica.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

But but wait, you have an Airbnb side gig? Sorry, I think that's what I'm just learning in this. Oh also I didn't know that, but in Jamaica?

Japan Inspiration, Mascots, And 7‑Eleven

SPEAKER_04 10:17

Yeah, so it's it like yeah, and it's uh don't don't get it get it twisted the wrong way. Listen, if we want to do a podcast in Jamaica, I could get us into this villa. That's what I heard. So yeah, I'm sure that's what I also heard.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

That's what I heard.

SPEAKER_04 10:32

I stumbled into this thing again. Somebody like somebody I'd worked with for a really long time reached down and was just like, it's an older gentleman, right? He just he can't keep up with the technology. And he's like, Can you just help me get these people booked? Make sure that they have their transportation to and from. It's like a private villa with like six bedrooms, like gated off. Like it's not like a resort, like you know, sandals or anything, it's its own like private house down there. So there's no, you know, structure in terms of people who are like you know, taking bookings and making sure everyone's ready to get picked up at an airport at a certain time. So I'm doing that. I get a cut of the booking, and then if I want to go down at any point in time, he doesn't charge me to stay at the villa, I just gotta pay for the flight and my food, and that's it.

SPEAKER_03 11:16

So it's uh it's a pretty sweet setup. Well, I was gonna say, yeah, it sounds uh sounds pretty good. Hopefully, you know, like you said, thoughts and prayers because it's supposed to be pretty gnarly.

SPEAKER_04 11:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Besides that, you know, the anniversary thing, I'll be going out with my wife for dinner tonight at a nice French restaurant that we've never been to.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

So it would be a question Who planned the anniversary? Was it you or was it your wife?

SPEAKER_04 11:40

Wait, question again, Melanie. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

I'm saying, who planned the anniversary? Was it you or was it your wife?

SPEAKER_04 11:46

Like, you mean the plans for tonight in terms of like going out? Yeah, yeah. So it was kind of it's funny because it was kind of like a dual thing. So if you're listening, you know I contributed to this. Anyway, it was kind of a dual thing. First year anniversary, I think it's like you um you have to get what was it? Papers like the gift. The second year is cotton, right? And we're both sitting there and it's like, what do you get that's cotton that's really, really nice, like for each other, you know, maybe a bathroom or slippers. And then we end up walking into um into Brooklyn and um one day, and we're just sitting there, and it's like, you know, the Duvets, like everything's kind of pricey there. So it's like, hey, how about we just get a new sheet set? You know, even though that sounds kind of boring, it's cotton, it fits a need, and that took care of that. And then we just decided for today, it was kind of me who was just like, you just want to go out to dinner. I picked a spot in Brooklyn, and she picked a spot that's local in Astoria. So it's half and half. If you ask her, I'm sure she would take a lot of the credit, and I'm okay to give it to her for it.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

That's so funny. I asked because when I was building whatever, there was a time where we were focusing on date nights and couples. And so I did a search with couples where I would talk to them about who plans date nights, how do they plan, like we all of those things. Um, but that was just one niche that we focused on when I was building whatever, but that's why I asked because I'm always curious. Uh and it's it's definitely a mix-up for sure. It's not always by any means, which I think is the stereotype and what people tend to think. And it's because I think women just naturally love to plan more. But um, yeah, that's why I wanted to ask as curious.

SPEAKER_04 13:21

No, all good. And I'll put it to you this way there there is something to it, right? Because any plans, anniversary or not, it's like, I'll be like, okay, you want to do let's go out to the museum, the park, and a restaurant on Saturday, right? Like where you have all these things, thankfully, in proximity to us. Um, and she'll be like, oh yeah, that sounds great. And then the day before, we'll still go do something, but the script is totally changed. The restaurant I picked is what she wanted. The museum changes to a Broadway show, and a walk in the park ends up being rowboats in Central Park, right? And it's like, okay, so it was I gave you the foundation. She just took it and wanted to go her own way with it, which again, I'm totally fine too.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Yeah, that's yeah. Um, I do that too, uh as well. So but you did put the effort in of planning, Connor. So plans change, but it doesn't you put the effort in, and I I get that credit.

SPEAKER_04 14:14

It's the effort, yeah. That's it. Charlie, why don't you give us uh a little scoop on what your past week's been like past week?

SPEAKER_03 14:23

So I submitted uh the API. It was like an approval, like okay. So Google Ads has to be spit out in a certain manner. So like a certain type of um not JSON, what's the other structured data type? Um JSON, um what the hell am I thinking of? CSS?

SPEAKER_00 14:44

No, I I can't remember JavaScript. Uh what is it, Common?

SPEAKER_03 14:52

JavaScript? Uh not Java. It's like a certain structured data that uh Google needed to see for the Google Apps.

SPEAKER_04 14:59

Metadata? Schema Um I'm just gonna throw things out here until you say yes.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_04 15:03

Schema, metadata, JSON, JavaScript, uh CSS, um man, that's kind of where you'll end up.

Personal Weeks: Halloween, Travel, And Side Gigs

SPEAKER_03 15:11

When you prompt an AI in this data format, it's it's supposed to be like the the highest and like like best way, quote, best way to get a good response back. So it's basically what the AI is looking for.

SPEAKER_04 15:23

Why aren't we just asking AI?

SPEAKER_03 15:25

We could. I guess that's the easy way to do it.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

But whatever that isn't this the whole point isn't this why we are here, Connor. Pull it up.

SPEAKER_03 15:34

I'm doing it, I'm doing it, I'm going, I'm going. Okay. What the hell is it called? Uh it's it's a structured type of JSON. Uh it's JSON this whole time. Okay. Anyways, whatever that is, Google was looking for that. So I instead of, well, then I get the email from Google from the API team, and it's like, okay, well, we can't do the connector because we we're not getting approved by the API to show you the way that this is supposed to report back. So it's like a catch 22. That's when I asked it. That's why I sent you that screen grab Connor of um, we can manipulate the data spit uh, we can create a dummy account in the app through Google Ads, and we can make it spit out dummy data in that certain structured way. And that's when I prompted GPT, that's when I sent you that screen grab Connor. It's like, is this like that movie speed where like they loop the footage on the bus? It's like they're doing it, but they're not doing it. And it like it responded back to the little laughing face, and it was like, Yeah, that's exactly it. We're like kind of doing it just to send the screen grab to Google so that it gets approved so that you know they don't blow up the bus. And then I I kind of laughed, yeah. So uh that is that was sent uh last Thursday. And of course I watched that movie because that's a banger movie. That is a classic banger.

SPEAKER_04 16:47

I'm not doing much here, man.

SPEAKER_03 16:48

You got like it's it's not JSON JS. Oh my god, this this is gonna drive me insane. Anyway, um, it's got a young Keanu Reeves in there, very young, very, very young. It's a great movie. Uh Winter and Aves game. That was I think that was Thursday night. I had like two beers or like three beers, and I was like, I had like a headache when I woke up on Friday.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

God, we're getting old.

SPEAKER_03 17:08

Um, yeah, I got back on the ice finally. I got back on after like five months off.

SPEAKER_04 17:14

There you go.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

Uh how did it feel?

SPEAKER_04 17:15

You sore the next day?

SPEAKER_03 17:17

Dude, my legs were gassed. Yeah. Like one of the guys skated by, so I played goalie. One of the guys skated by me. He's like, Oh, you look pretty good. Like, how are you feeling? And it was like 10 minutes into the skate, like just after warm-ups, like 10 minutes, like, dude, I'm gassed right now.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

You're like hypermodelating on the ice. Oh my gosh, it was that it was it was pretty bad.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

It was great. And then uh like I walked into the room, the dressing room, and I forgot like I forgot that smell, that hockey smell. Like it kind of just gotten out of my brain. Yeah, hockey has a very unique smell. It's it, I don't like I'm over here. Like, is it a yeah, okay. It's brutal.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

I didn't want to be rude. Uh I don't know how you would smell this without smelling it.

SPEAKER_03 17:56

You can't. It's it's a very unique. Uh you just once you smell it, you're like, oh god, you can just get that away from me. But it's so much a part of that, and it's even like a thing in the culture, the hockey culture. Uh, do you guys remember that show 24-7 on HBO? Yes, I do. Like, it was such a badass show. They like 24-7 footage, you know, following the the team around. And there is a section on why hockey, like why it's so weird to have like a smell. Like, there's literally a smell in the room. So they and they set up this is a pro, this is an NHL team. They set up fans in the middle of the room and just to get the smell like out the window, just because um the smell is so bad. But I forgot about that and I walked in and was like, Yeah, okay, I'm back. All right, yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Is that smell or like what is it?

SPEAKER_03 18:46

What's that?

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Is it like BO?

SPEAKER_03 18:48

Oh, yeah, it's like it's it's BO, it's uh crusty hockey gear, it's guys that don't wear socks but wear skates for an hour and a half. So it'd be like wearing ski boots without socks, I guess. Uh it's spit, it's mucus, it's blood, it's uh yeah, it it's all kinds of just all right, like a medley of yeah, it's it's pretty bad. But it's like right when I walked in, I was like, Yep, okay, I get it. Like I'm in a hockey dressing room now. Mallory, if you thought that the haunted house you were just in wasn't scary, go into it.

SPEAKER_04 19:23

Sounds like go into a hockey locker room and they're brutal.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

They're that smell is and then I'll walk right out because I'll be called good.

SPEAKER_03 19:30

You'll do that teardrop, just in and out, and then you get get guys that don't wash their gear, and then you guys that don't shower after they play, and the guys that use the same towel for like six months out of the it's brutal.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Oh my god, that's how you get that's how you get diseases.

SPEAKER_03 19:44

Yeah, it's it's pretty bad. But I forgot how much how fun hockey is to play. So I play goalie, it was a hell of a workout. 90. I forgot what pucks feel like flying at your face, you know, just like guys winding up taking clappers, and I got like a welt in my arm, and uh so it felt good to get back in.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Wait, are you like on a team or in a league sort of situation?

SPEAKER_03 20:07

I'm not in a league, but I I'm in a private skate. So the best skates in Colorado don't have refs and they don't have scorekeepers, they're very private, and you have to be invited in. So I I I'm in one of those skates.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Yay!

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Uh and I play for so long. Look, like everybody needs a goalie. Like I kind of talked my way in. Plus, I brought beer, you know.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Oh, that's I'll be it.

SPEAKER_03 20:29

Yeah, like that'll do it. So yeah, I I've got all kinds of hockey stores. So that was good to get back on. I took the summer off to mountain bike. Um, so that was good. My legs were gathered I did yoga yesterday morning, usually in my like yoga, not bad. Oh man, I was my the knees were knocking. I mean, they're they're like that. I was like trying to balance, and that was not happening. So um, but it was good to it's good to stretch, you know. I've been sitting in front of this screen building this app for the past like six weeks, two months. Um it's good to good to get that stretched out. So um, yeah, I I literally have a note in my phone app. Did yoga finally dot dot dot all caps, not limber. Yeah, uh not limber at all.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Have you done um have you done hot yoga?

SPEAKER_03 21:21

I have, yeah. Yeah, it is what is hot yoga? I'm not a yoga person.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

What is well Connor? When we all three of us get together at some point, guess what we're doing? For Kona Yoga.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

Oh it is no joke. Hot yoga is no joke. They they throw everybody in a room, you you get a mat, they crank up the temperature, and you're you're just like sweating like crazy.

SPEAKER_04 21:42

I will lift weights all day, bike, treadmill, yoga for some reason. Not is not the same.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Also, so I love to do yoga, but I do a lot of Pilates, and I'm obsessed with Pilates like talk where they show men doing Pilates for the first time, and they're just like and these are athletes, right? They're not just like these are athletic men on like doing Pilates, and they're just like shaking. They just keep it.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

That's how I am with yoga.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

That's what we do.

SPEAKER_03 22:07

It's no joke.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

Like we get together and we'll film that, and that will be the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 22:12

That'll be super entertaining, might be the most interesting thing for the podcast that day.

SPEAKER_03 22:21

Oh, yeah, I'm I 100% in that we're we're doing that. Uh so we did yoga, um, plans for Halloween. Uh, I'm we're going as um uh what the hell is that show again? Why can't you think of this?

SPEAKER_04 22:33

Oh, you told me this, and it was really good. Legends of the hidden temple, right?

Charlie’s App Hurdles And Hockey Return

SPEAKER_03 22:36

Yes, yes. We're doing that. So we got the shirts in last week. Uh, we got the helmets last night, we're gonna spray paint and gold, and uh going over to a friend's place. Um Andrew, if you well, he doesn't listen. It's that friend group, that couple that you go in and hang out with, but you you just get just smashed. Like, I I can't try they have this guy drinks like he's the highest functioning alcoholic like I've ever met. And I just I I can't do that. But he's so fun to hang out with. And uh Halloween's on a Friday, right? Yeah, yeah, good thing it's on a Friday. So look, I'll have three beers be hung over.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

And um, but what do you do, Charlie? You switch up from beer and you just do shots at tequila. Because that boom alcohol right there, right? Just like in terms of I mean, no alcohol clean, but like in terms of not feeling the effects as much. Shots at tequila will do.

SPEAKER_03 23:28

The clear booze. Okay, we'll see. Uh I I I will send uh, probably or I'm not joking about that.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

I I do I don't I don't drink beer. I didn't when I was college. I I don't drink it on four. I wish I liked it because it's just like an easy drink to get literally at any bar or any restaurant. But of course cocktails and I have to be that bitch. But um I love to if I'm gonna go out, do a few shots of tequila and then let that and then I I coast the rest of the night.

SPEAKER_03 23:57

Really?

SPEAKER_00 23:58

And then I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're just drinking earlier, drink early. No, I drink multiple, like you know, two, three, you know, and then you're good the rest of the night.

SPEAKER_04 24:08

And you just sip it and eat, or you take a shot.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

No, no, no, no, you don't sip it. No, you gotta take the shot.

SPEAKER_04 24:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You beer bong it, Connor. Well, uh I I might, you know, I don't know. Anyway, I don't have any, you know, uh any type of alcohol liquor I'm usually okay with except what's the one? It's called um Fournet. I can't really do. I don't know if you've ever had that. Yeah, I have I think it's an Italian thing, or it's a I think like after they're done eating, it helps with digestion and stuff. And I'm just like, no, not for me, it's too strong.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

But I I used to live with two bartenders, so um I used to be a bartender.

SPEAKER_04 24:43

Oh, you did? Oh, okay. I was a local college bartender. It was it was fun.

SPEAKER_03 24:47

It had a stash too.

SPEAKER_04 24:49

No, I didn't have that stash. I don't I back in the day when I was younger, in my younger days, I couldn't grow a full stash like this. So it's a recent addition to duster. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Four net Fernet's very popular out here in San Francisco, so I've had my fair share of Furnett shots, unfortunately. I'd much rather have tequila because it is like drinking Listerine.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Um, and at one time I we hosted I hosted a party where I had a Fournette Fountain. Um, and that was a hit. People like a Fournette Fountain.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

Oh my god, that's awesome. Oh, there's another worst one.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

It was a mixed cocktail, it was like Fournette in it and it had other things, right? It was Fournette, but um, it is a thing here in in San Francisco. And then there's a uh a drink when I grew up in Chicago, Chicago.

SPEAKER_04 25:32

Malort. I was about to say that.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

It's so gross, so it tastes like grass. So I feel like every state or parts of the US have their like drink, and it just isn't and like here it's Fournet. So yeah, interesting. I think you're right. It's not it's like an apertif from like some part of correct, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:54

But not for me. Melore, that was the other one I was thinking of. If I Fournette's not compared to Fournette, Melore is awful. Like Fournette is great. I would drink that anytime if you put two in front of me. Like Malore is just I don't think I've had that when you visit Chicago when we visit Chicago, so if I have to do hot yoga or what or yoga or Pilates, whatever it is that we come up with, you have to have Malore in front of me. Let's go.

SPEAKER_03 26:20

That's cool. All right, that's all right. You'll you'll be all right. Don't worry, I'll make sure you make it home. I'll be fine. And um, yeah, and then uh yeah, we we hopped uh we I I gave the old shepherd's hook to Mallory. I said, yo, uh Mallory, what do you think? Got this idea, got this podcast. Yeah, I sent her uh sent her an email and yeah, and then um she is. Yeah, this was uh this is over the uh I sent it when did I send that email?

SPEAKER_02 26:47

A couple days ago. And then last Wednesday.

SPEAKER_03 26:49

Yeah, and then uh yeah, I got it back yesterday and was like, all right, let's let's fucking do this and scale this up. So very, very excited.

SPEAKER_04 26:57

Um why don't we give a little insight as to the person that we're actually gonna be speaking with too?

SPEAKER_03 27:01

So everybody so uh we are interviewing. I might screw this up. His name is Suk Sani, and he's the the lovable winner of the hackathon. Pardon me. The hackathon. Will I am was there? Uh I guess Will Iam he he offered to invest right there on the spot. I guess so. We'll we'll get the story. Um, so again, Souk Sani, uh he's the founder of engine.ai, and it's a marketing platform. So looking to get uh more insight out of that. So that that should be a pretty good interview. Sweet. Yeah, I'm looking at engine AI, it looks pretty cool. So definitely uh quite a few questions I'm gonna have. Yeah for the general. I I've got a couple loaded up, and um yeah, we why don't we just go ahead and uh transition over that and uh we'll see you guys after. All right, we're here with the lovable hackathon winner, Suk Saney. Thank you for taking the time with us.

SPEAKER_04 27:52

Of course, happy to be here. Suke, thanks for being here, appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 27:57

How has the so you won the lovable hackathon? Uh the first week after your victory, what was that like?

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Yeah, it was it was kind of unreal. So the first week after, I actually didn't I had a bunch of plans afterwards, by the way. So, like when I went to LA, I was like, I'm gonna go to SF and like you know, do a bunch of conferences. So I I just went from like one and I didn't expect anything to happen. So I was gonna be like, you know, just participate, get a little project going, and then like go to um all these conferences. So like it was kind of surreal, uh, but I didn't have the time to like relish in the moment. So I just like went there to um to SF or like a superbase hackathon. Um, but really like then um after the week I had a bit of time to like just sit and ponder and kind of it was a great um like it was a great feeling because it's something like music space. It's uh I I listen to music, but it's never a place I I've ideated in. And I have no idea what the issues or problems are in that industry. So being able to like jump in super quickly, build something and validate it and then win and then come back from it, it was like uh I think like something that would take me on my own, like six or seven months of like you know, dedicated time versus like being done within one. So that was surreal.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

Since your uh since your victory, okay, so you you've gotten your company, okay. You you had the hackathon. What made you even sign up for that? And then uh because that was just a weekend, right? As opposed to the the Bolt one, which is uh one month long. What made you sign up? And what was there anything specifically that you wanted to get out of that? Or is it just like, all right, I'm just gonna jump in?

Transition To Interview With Suk

Why Enter The Hackathon And Winning

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Yeah, so it actually started off. Um, so I've been in my city, I've been organizing vibe coding hackathons all the time. Um, we've done four of them. And uh every single time, because I'm the organizer, I don't actually get to build anything, it just kind of sucks. And um and I feel because of how like fast AI is moving, um, I always feel left left out. So when I saw somebody else who was organizing a hackathon, and it was one of my friends um at level. I'm like, oh, that'd be great for me. Like, I could just like, you know, let my hair out and just kind of like go in and build what I've always wanted to do. In fact, in the previous hackathons, I I actually said to my team that I uh for the half a day, please don't bother me because I want to like build something on my own. And so I like I was really trying to do this on my own and I wasn't able to. So that was one. The number two thing was um I I like I was building something, um, but it wasn't like going, it wasn't growing as fast as as I as I wanted it to be. So I was in this like you know, period where I was trying to understand, should I continue on with this thing? Should I what should I build out next? So those two things when they came together and I saw uh that there was a hackathon being put up in LA, it it's away from my city, it's somewhere I would never go. This is the first time I've been to LA. Um, and it's in the music industry. So it just like seemed like the right place, right time. I applied. Um, it was supposed to be like a very small gathering. So 30 builders and 30 musicians. Like that's the the way it's set up, and then you get paired up like a musician with a builder. Um, so I thought that the the concept was really cool. So all those three things combined together, I was like, let me just put an application in. Uh if I get in, I'll book a flight immediately. And then that's what happened. So like I got accepted, and then I was like, all right, don't have to book a flight like three days out, and then so that's when I when I went.

SPEAKER_04 31:16

That's awesome. I one thing sucks too. I'm really glad I picked up on it earlier. And me and Mallory just spoke about this too. You refer to San Francisco as SF. I just had I don't know why it just picked up on me.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

That's how you say it.

SPEAKER_04 31:30

Yes, it's it's SF or the city. So when I went, I'm a native New Yorker, so my first time over to San Francisco, I was calling it San Fran, and I was just getting the worst looks from everybody over there. And finally, my cousin's nice enough to tell me who lives there. You think I get this information before? And they're like, Connor, it's it's F or the city, it's not San Fran or San Francisco, it's it's SF. I don't know why, I just had to say it. You said it right the first time, so I guess.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

No, you're actually right. Somebody's somebody's dumb that exactly that that thing that you said, somebody's dumb that exactly to me. So I was calling it uh San Fran as well. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's in the movies, I think they say it like that. Could be or like, yeah, but I've had that exact discussion before, and I hate and you know I hated that when that happened, but I'm glad that they did because I didn't have to, you know, fool myself again over and over again after when I went to the city.

SPEAKER_04 32:19

Just commend you for that. Again, I made that mistake, so I just don't want to pick up on at least kind of give it a thumbs up there. But but anyway, I digress. So you know, talk to the hackathon, everything. You know, one thing I I looked up into at least is um engine AI, right? Like I thought that was you know really cool. I've checked it out before, um, very interesting. It's can you kind of give me a little background? It's like what inspired you to even come up with the concept.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Yeah, um, so I so I've been an engineer for like my whole career, and I've been a builder my whole career as well. So I've been buying wanted to build products and and stuff like that. Um, I think I'm at 36 at the moment. Um, and yeah, but the 28 of them have made no money. So I was like, there's something wrong with me. And what was wrong with tech typically with like technical founders is like you don't know how to sell. Um, so I so four years ago I found that out, and then I was like, okay, how do I how do I find a way to like how do I learn this skill basically? So I just like went out and I uh bought blueberry honey. I don't know if it's honey made from blueberry flowers or blueberry mixing with honey, but like it's some sort of like thing like that. It's a yeah, yeah, it's a wholesale. Um you can get them from wholesale from like Nova Scotia. And then I I was an intern at the time, so I would like sell that to like all the people around me. Um, but because the the thought was that if I could sell this product that was already selling, if I was able to sell that, that's great. If I can't sell that, it's not that the product is bad, it's because it speaks directly to my selling ability. So uh that was a little exercise, and then ballooned so that went really well for me. Then I started a uh cold email agency, an SEO agency, and then I started building go-to-market tools. So I built a um um SEO tool. That's the I got into an accelerator because of that, and then um SEO was kind of like not working so great. So then I switched into how I was already getting customers, which is building in public on LinkedIn. So that's the way I've been getting all of my customers uh this whole time. Um, and so the problem that I identified was that um us as individuals, it's very easy for us to like sit on a call and give advice, but somehow if you're sitting down and writing, you know, writing good LinkedIn posts where you're like giving advice as well, it's very hard to. It's a blank page problem. Uh, so I built this like voice AI, um, kind of like an interview or like a Lenny's podcast where it would ask you, so we'll say, Connor, you know, what'd you do last week? And you'd be like, I did this. Um, okay, like what was a lesson that you learned? Oh, I I learned this thing. Like, but yeah, but like that's not a common advice. Like, people will tell you to do it this way. No, no, no, I don't think that's the right way. So you basically like it's like a sparring partner. Um, and so that five, 10-minute conversation on Monday morning becomes your LinkedIn content for the rest of the week. So this gives you distribution without having to spend a lot of time and money uh to to like create LinkedIn content, which is really crucial for like B2B sales. Yeah, um, so that's what I built. That's a whole product. Um, it uh has customers and it was it was like testimonials, and the product is good as well. But I I've through a bunch of different explorations, I know that the um uh it's not gonna grow as fast. And also it's also it's also just not a great business. That's that's the main thing I figured out. Um, and so like that's kind of like it's it's on the um, yeah. So I bit uh the product is built and people are using it at the moment.

SPEAKER_04 35:42

So are you saying it's almost like it has a a ceiling to it though, more or less?

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Like yeah, yeah. Like it's it's got some features that I I'm not a big um like the sorry, the market has some features that I'm not too happy with. One of the big ones is that when you sell this kind of a product, you can only sell it to creators or like maybe uh CEOs of a comp of a small company, because bigger companies they just want this work to be done automatically, so they hire an agency. They would much rather rather hire an agency than have a tool. So like you never see a CEO of a big company use that tool, right? Um, then the other question, other thing is that that CEO, even if he loves a product, he's not gonna buy it for the rest of his company. So, like, so that's the reason why the business is not great, because even if I was successful in like getting this product out there, I'm not gonna get that uh scale effect or like network effect uh on on the work I do. So, anyways, uh too into the weeds, but but the the idea being that I I explored the space, the product works great. I just don't think the business is gonna work. So, like I was figuring out what to do, or should I continue on with it? Like just trying to like figure that out.

Idea Validation With Real Payments

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Very cool. Um, you mentioned that you've built 36 different products and that 28 of them, or sorry, 28 of them um failed. Yes, yes, zero dollars. I'm curious, like how how do you come across your ideas? How do you brainstore them? How do you then validate your ideas? And then what is your advice to founders out there regarding like those that have been in your situation that have built so many products but haven't like kind of figured out the one that's going to work? Like, what advice would you have to give them?

SPEAKER_01 37:23

I I would actually answer this with a story. So I'll tell you exactly how I won the hackathon because it's exactly, I think, how you're supposed to do it. Um, so when we went to the hackathon for for the music competition, um uh my partner, she had a lot of like music background. So she she kind of like laid out some problems, right? So you laid out four or five problems, and I use Chat GPT to understand what the impact of that problem is. Like, is it a ten dollar problem or is it a thousand dollar problem? And like and like the same technology actually can be used to solve a ten dollar problem, but the same one could be for a thousand. So, for example, a voice AI, you could create content with it like I was, right? Like, what is a what is the value of a LinkedIn post? Maybe like a dollar or so, but you could actually solve a um like you can put it in front of um a receptionist desk, right? And like, you know, for for like for like automating those calls. Okay, receptionists probably make like 50k a year. You can like you know, figure out what the value of that is, or you can say we're gonna do this for like enterprise support and automate you know call centers. Like that's still voice AI, but then the the the ticket size of that is like super high, right? So to figuring out like, is there a dollar, ten dollar, a thousand dollar, ten thousand dollar problem? And once you figure that out, they're vastly different businesses. So you need to be aware like which game you want to play. Um, so we did that for like a couple of different ideas. Um, and instead of like building, uh by the way, we had five hours to build. Um, so instead of building, uh, we actually like decided to like, yeah, five hours. So we decided to waste our time, not really. We had four ideas, so we just went around to people because there were artists in the room. So these are like Grammy winning artists that have you know had some accolades as well. And we were like, hey, you know, you don't want to give them four ideas, you want to give them two. So you pissed them two ideas and you say, Hey, can you give me$10 if I if I build any one of these? Or actually, the better way of saying it is like, which one would you give$10 for? And saying zero dollars is totally fine. In fact, if you say zero dollars, that's what you preferred rather than you being like, hey, I'll just like pay$10 and then like you know, just so you're being nice to us. And the added pressure I added on top is that I will come and collect in three hours because I know I can build this, but I'm gonna come in and collect that money as well. So, like that, that just like you know, cemented what we were doing, which is like uh idea validation before it's even built. So we just went around 10 people within the next uh hour or so, uh, every single time picked two different ideas and then like you know, pitched those two different ideas, then came back and uh figured out an axis of like what is like based on like what is a thing that we want to work on, like we're happy working on. Number two is uh what is like that um enough painful and repetitive problem? Like that's the second one and third one is like can we build this super quickly? Because like you know, we don't have millions of hours to do this. So like those are three axes, and I think um, by the way, everything that I'm saying, I think like if you just do it in a normal startup scenario, like that actually like works well. It just like it was an expedited timeline. Um, so once we have that, and then we have you know, what are the and the four signals from the audience which one they want most? We just pick that idea and then we continue, we built that out five minutes before the hackathon finished, we went to one of the eight people that said yes, uh, that they would pay and got them to pay on Stripe, and then took that thing and then put it on the pitch tech, and the rest is history. So I think like that that kind of yeah, that that kind of like that that sort of like uh process kind of like works really well. And if you're like an engineer or like a builder that's like, hey, I'm like doing all these things, but I'm not hitting the right idea or like I'm not sure like if I'm building on the right thing, I think like working on those axes and like having the payment up front that has served me well over and over again. In fact, uh I used to do this on Twitter as well a long time ago, where I would like put an idea out and then say, like, you know, it'll be 20 bucks a month, like when it launches 10 bucks right now, and collect the payments. And if I can't build it, literally I would like in public say, I can't build it. Um, here's all a refund back. And you know, if you want out of the 10 bucks refund, you want five bucks more for me for like wasting your time, fine, go for it. Like, I'll I'll give you extra money as well. Um, and like doing that over and over again, it's a scary thing to do, but I think that's what's required.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Absolutely. The resilience piece I think is really important and sort of the one relatable piece of feedback that you shared of like the top three things that you should kind of think about when you're building, right? The first one being that um you want to like enjoy and love what you're building because or like pick the thing that you want to build, because when times get hard, it is the thing that will kind of carry you through, right? Your vision and and um what have you will carry you through those times.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

Have you kind of ran into yeah, a little bit. It's because like there's there's uh at some point, I think like it was uh um Christmas time. I built the game on Web3. This was like when Web3 was like um on everybody's lips, it's not anymore, which is kind of odd. Uh now it's everything is AI. But two, three years ago when Web3 was big, I was building this like um game with like like blockchain-based game, Santas versus I guess like normal players, and then like you the game would run on a blockchain. That was the whole thing about it. Uh, and like NFTs were involved somehow. But like it worked well, and it made the rounds on Twitter as well. But I I I thought to myself, like, it's really good, people are using it, people are playing it, but like, why am I building this thing? Like, do I like what do I what which part of this whole thing I care about? And like, turns out I I didn't really care about any of these things. Um, it was a good like way to test out the technology and like understand like how it works, but like it wasn't like a lasting business, but I wanted to make it one, but then I I didn't have any passion for it. So a lot of the times you pick a um a thing because it's like hot and everybody else is doing it, but then if you don't have the relationship to the problem, it's very hard to continue on with it, especially a year later when everybody else has forgotten about it. Um and you you kind of have to like still go at it because you made that choice a year ago.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

So you you've you've mentioned uh that you're an engineer by trade. Uh actually in one of your YouTube videos titled LinkedIn Sales Workshop, the first 20 seconds, you said that uh you're an engineer by trade, but I need to learn how to sell. Given your experience and the fact that you're an engineer by trade for our audience, what are some sales tips that you can share through your experience?

Building 36 Products And Learning Sales

SPEAKER_01 43:57

Yeah, the the big one I think is you gotta be like you gotta be a likable person. And like I don't know, this is a like a loaded word, and it has there's a lot of like you can't tell what a likable person is, but like literally when like you speak with somebody that somebody gets energy out of you, like that's the person that you want to be. Because literally, if you can do that, it doesn't matter if you're selling a$10 thing or a thousand dollar thing or ten thousand dollar thing, like it will work, and so the couple of different ways that um I've been able to do that is this has been a long, long journey. So I'll uh it's not a like a quick fix at all. Um, I uh you know, at the very like when I came out of uni, um I was like, I knew that that was a thing, the shortcoming that I had, which is like me being shy and like being, you know, I want to work on a laptop kind of thing. Um what I found that like if you're a smart person but you're sitting in the back, nobody cares. But if you're a dumb person at the front, everybody wants to listen, right? And so I'll much rather have my ideas be listened than like you know, spewing in the background being like, oh, I wish they would like hear my thoughts because like those are great. Um, so my sort of like the thing I wanted to reinvent was like, how do I become that person? And when I become the person, how do I become like likable? A couple of like technical things that I did was I listened to comedy podcasts about 24-7. I I go to sleep really just before I sleep. I like listen, it's just like a habit I've built up, but I just like comedy. Um, but also like comedian people are likable from the get-go. Um, and so like you can keep like sales is like ability, sales is like making somebody laugh, right? Like 30-minute meeting, first 25 minutes, you make somebody laugh, last five minutes you say you want to do this like a hundred K deal. That's the way it works, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Um relationships. I love this. Like, I I think it's super important. I've and also like it's so refreshing to hear a founder talk about that, like the fact that they're not listening to another business or startup podcast, and instead you're listening to something completely different that also brings you.

SPEAKER_04 45:57

That's great. So have you taken anything from any of those and like like verbatim said something you heard to like icebreak or just to like carry a conversation? Just out of curiosity.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

No, I don't think like verbatim at all. I um, but there was one time like I bought a super expensive um jacket one time, um, and somebody asked me for money, and I'm like, I don't have any money, I spent all on this jacket.

SPEAKER_02 46:21

So that was like that was nice.

Authenticity Over AI Slop In Content

SPEAKER_01 46:23

So that that's that's something that came out of like a podcast as well. But I think it's just like there's like a string of letters or words together that like make somebody feel a certain way, and that's what again, like that's what sales is like there's like a string of words I can say that would make you buy a$10 thing, but then the same string of letters could make you buy a million dollar thing. Um, and like comedy is the same way, right? It's like it's all a word play. So so yeah, I I really like communication and like I want to be a better speaker, so um that's the the cadence I think is like what you pick up or what I think I've picked up by listening to these folks of like how do you say a funny thing or how does it sound like so then I can like mimic it as well. Um, the exact words are like a little bit subjective. Um, and and so so that's one tip I have. The the second one is learn how to do like a um a sales call. So, like a sales call typically the way I do it is 30 minutes, uh, five minutes building a rapport, uh, next 10 minutes doing like discovery on the person, next five minutes, um, you know, asking if if I can do a demo, right? And then uh what were we so like 10, 15, 20. So and then like the last couple of minutes, like handling objections, right? So like if you and then the last couple of minutes, if they say yes, if they've said yes to everything, sending them a stripe payment link immediately. You're not gonna see this person again. Uh the no-show rates on the next call is like basically like is through the floor. So if you can't like learn to do a 30-minute sale in this way, you become a machine. At that point, you just need somebody something to sell because like you just have the process down, and if you can like go through those phases without feeling hurt or without feeling that it's like that the customer is like saying no to you specifically, like there's all these like uh things that kind of go through your brain. If you can like become a machine and do that, uh like that would be my second thing if you can be a person that can like close things on a 30-minute call. Because like the reason that you can close something on a 30-minute call is because you've like been likable, you have something like a you've identified a problem with them, and that they trust that you can solve it. So, like it's like an ultimate litmus test for that. A third one, and I'm happy to go into detail on all these ones as well, but the third one that I'm that I that I think I recommend is like building in public. So um I've been doing that for the last um four or five years. In fact, Mallory, we're talking about KP. Uh KP is the build in public guy, and uh, I think I spent like uh KP Kartik Povra, that's his name. Um, he is a founder of relations at Padel. He's been a mentor for actually he used to run this thing called Build in Public Fellowship, which is like all about how to build in public. And I paid for it because I'm like, I need to learn this. And it sounds silly because like it's like yo, you just like write stuff in public what you're doing, but like there's a bit of a like a mind shift there of like I am a person that like does things and like talks about those things and then talks about my learning in public and talks about failures in public. Um, and I'm not a person that just like you know goes to Chat GPT and says, like, you know, I have this story, and like can you make it like a lot more positive and add more emojis to it? Which is like typically what people when they post on on these social media platforms do. So, really being an authentic person, um, if you do that over and over for a long period of time, people start remembering you. So people like remember that this person has been honest, trustworthy, and like you know, is able to like share the share the um the lessons that he's learning and just like is a person that I would trust. Um, and so that thing with the impact of social media, as in like you have a large group of people they can hit immediately, it pays dividends longer term. Um, I've been doing this for the last three or four years now, and now people come to me and be like, hey, I became a founder because I saw your post, or like, hey, I my friend told me about you a bit ago. Um, even if somebody's saying something negative, sorry, positive, uh, like you know, oh yeah, you should work with Suk because he's like, you know, I XYZ because I like him. That recommendation is everything, and so anything that you can do to make that positive cycle start um is useful. So those are my three three points.

SPEAKER_04 50:36

Yeah, the positive reinforcement piece is huge, like you said at the end. And then I think I wanted to go back to you a minute. So you talk about like authenticity, right? And the content that's put out there. Mallory, you and I have spoken about this too. It's like authenticity, it just adds credibility, right, to everything that somebody's viewing. But you also mentioned, you know, what most people are leveraging AI for, right? It's like, okay, I want to put a post out on any social platform. Here's what I'm thinking, but I can't really put words to what I want to say. So I throw it in Chat GBT or Claude, right? And it comes out unauthentic, robotic, you can kind of tell. In your opinion, it and there obviously has to be, there's a way to kind of still leverage AI for that, but still make it sound authentic. You just need to know the right prompts and train it in the proper way to really have that output, right? Or or would you think a bit differently?

SPEAKER_01 51:24

I I would actually like uh go the extreme up with it. I feel like if you can't say anything well, then you need to you need to be a better speaker or a better communicator. That's where really where the problem is. It's almost like putting it. I'm almost like loves it.

SPEAKER_04 51:39

Preach.

SPEAKER_00 51:40

In the age of AI slop, and look, like we talked last week about the importance of the humanness in our work, especially in the age of AI. And I feel like Suk is like has that down pat, right? Like he's like, like he's he's building AI products, but at the same time realizes the like importance of the human touch, and and and especially with with the the LinkedIn post that you have. And that's why I'm just like, yes, because I think it's important. We need that.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

It's very important. It's also like uh think about it this way. Like, um for the time being, yes, for the time being, like AI will like right now. I need to put a good LinkedIn post out. Okay, I'm gonna go to Chat GPT because I can't form sentences in the right way, right? I'm gonna go to chat GPT, copy and paste, and put it in there. It did do the job, but the underlying issue is still there, which is like you don't know what how to like put words together to get people to feel things, and that it really is the is the main thing, right? So, like, how many times are you gonna like pick up Chat GPT and almost you're using it as a as a crutch? Now put that put put that person to the side. You have another person who maybe isn't as eloquent. Um, and I don't think like being like you know, having big words actually means anything. So this person isn't that eloquent, and like maybe like the commas aren't in the right place, the the the you know, plural things are not all of the place, but the the the thought is authentic, the the thought is real, and they're able to like say that thought, whether they're here, they're speaking on a stage, they're speaking with a friend, right? It like that person doesn't need chat GPT, they are the authentic person. That person actually will get a lot more, yeah, that they will get a lot more opportunities because they worked on the craft. Uh with AI, you're kind of like putting on a on a band-aid, so you're not learning, learning the thing. So I think like it it makes sense to use AI to do things that are like, I don't need really need to learn this thing, but I think it is absolutely incredibly important for you to be a person that again is likable, but also is a master communicator. Use you know everything a founder does is sending a good email. The world is at if I can send an email, good email to Mark Cuban, uh, one email, like I I would get that that check. If I was to uh you know hire a world-class employee, I need to be able to like write good. I can't write use AI, and then like when they come on board, then like you're a completely different person. You don't even know how to like form sentences together. So people can see through that like really quickly, and it just like doesn't make sense for your personal growth.

SPEAKER_04 54:06

Yeah, I think that makes all the sense in the world too. It's like you said, it's a lot of people use AI as a crutch, and if you can't hone in on the craft prior to AI is meant to help support and supplement, right? It's not meant to do the work for you. So I think that's a great point and kind of a lesson that all of our listeners should kind of take away from that.

SPEAKER_03 54:24

So good point, Sue.

SPEAKER_04 54:25

Appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 54:26

So, Suk, where is where's engine now? And we're in late October. Where's it going by January 1st?

SPEAKER_01 54:32

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, well, it I I don't have a great answer for that. So I'm in a bit of a holding pattern. Like I'm not sure um what to do. There's a couple of things that are so I made a couple of bets early in the year. Uh maybe I can share that. So I think uh yeah, I'm trying to like figure out what my mission is, but I'll tell you like what the product is doing. So I built this. Um, do you know you guys know Canva?

SPEAKER_02 54:55

Yeah, yeah.

Engine AI Status And Carousel Studio On Canva

SPEAKER_01 54:56

So I have right now the number one trending app on Canva. Uh it's called Carousel Studio. Oh, I'm checking it out. Yeah, it's called Carousel Studio. And um, so it is it's got um it basically like you put on the prompt and then it will like create a carousel for you, like a social media carousel. Uh will design it plus write the copy automatically for you. And um, it's it's something that I worked on for like very small time last year. Um, and then it's just kind of like blown up. And so so what I I I thought it wasn't gonna be as big, so I wasn't like thinking about it too much, but I think this might be the break, it this might be the thing that I need to put more time into it. So, what I'm doing literally right now is I did some experiments of like uh like data uh product analytics on like you know what who what countries are using the most and like you know where the issues are and stuff like that. So I figured out that retention is not great on the app, but like people like really love it, like really love the promise of it. So it's not delivering the value as much as I want it to be. So I'm like literally doing a product redesign right now. Um and uh I go I'm gonna have a new release out in like the next couple of uh in a month or so. But in January, um it's at 20,000 monthly actives right now, and I think I want to get to like 50k, and I think we have a pretty good shot of doing that.

SPEAKER_04 56:13

That's awesome. The app looks pretty cool too. So, how long out of curiosity to build something like like Carousel Studio, how long does something like that take? I mean, validating it, I think, doesn't take nearly as much as building something uh that stands on its own, right? And building something within Canva is easier to validate. So, yeah, just a little more insight there would be cool.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

Yeah, well, um, I'm actually gonna throw out everything that I just said previously, and like because like all that stuff doesn't apply to this thing. So, what happened for this thing was so um you know, we all like all builders built AI products, but like the marketing part is a hard part. So a year ago, I started looking into like what are the different ways of growing? LinkedIn is one of them, SEO was another one, that's what I was doing. SEO, so like learning that part, uh like you're learning while like um like helping other people do the same thing. And then the third one, which has been my a little bit of a like a I've somehow become an expert in this, which is like building in marketplaces. So, so a yeah uh uh two years ago. So, did you guys know like Stripe has an app marketplace? Yeah, so yeah, not a lot of people do. So Stripe app marketplace is fantastic because it's the people that are B2B that have that are collecting payments, so they have money. So if you can like make their job easier, then you can um you know you can charge them a lot of money. So I built an app and I sold it, and so I knew that um you know building in a marketplace could be really uh fruitful. Um, and so that's when I was in SF, I saw Canva release their app marketplace, and so I was like, okay, this is an incredible opportunity. I didn't have any words like sort of like validate this way because I was there for the weekend. It I went through their docs and it took me two weeks uh to build it out. It's because like I was already familiar with the the workflow right from the Stripe map marketplace. So I knew what the different like uh pieces that I needed to put together were. Um, and at that point, same thing. I came up with five five ideas. One of them kind of like made sense. Um, I continued to build that out and then I put it out, and then I immediately saw like an uptick, but I was like, I don't know if they're gonna pay, and I wasn't sure if they're gonna pay. Um, so I built it out really quickly, and then just it's been running for about a year and a half now, and just like a month ago, I put in monetization because I was like, I don't think anybody's gonna pay. Uh, might as well just do a test to see if somebody would pay. People wanted to pay like a lot, right? And um, and so I've kind of like so I started this time for this this plugin, I started with distribution first, and then I figured out what what product to build versus like starting with a person, right? So that that would be the other way of doing it because I already knew that Canva has 100 million users, and there's got to be something that camera isn't Canva isn't covering well. So, what that is, if I could have that potentially, then you know I would have users and I would have like payment or revenue from those users as well. So I started back from a distribution and then kind of like uh worked into a product versus all the way around.

SPEAKER_03 59:18

Suk, what what tools are you using as we wrap up here in the next couple of minutes? What tools are you using right now? And uh what what can our listeners uh expect from you from early next year?

SPEAKER_01 59:29

Yeah, um the tools I use lovable for all of my quick builds uh because I just want to like see what it would look like. Um, but once I have something that's like roughly the shape of uh what I want it to be, I bring it into cursor. Um and because I built so many products out now, I have like templates built out. And so I can just like drop that product into the template and get going pretty quickly. Um pardon me.

SPEAKER_03 59:58

Is that the only reason why you go from lovable Your cursor is because of those templates.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:03

Yeah, yeah. That's the main reason why. Yeah. Also, I work in a very specific stack, which is it's called NextGS, like NextJS and React. Um, and so it's kind of like the become the industry standard for all of the AI packages that come out, they typically support Next.js the most. Um, it is also like the most um like loved by community at the moment, so it's very easy to find other builders that can help you with that. And then obviously my templates are also in NextGS. So like it just like makes sense for me to be do that. And also I'm a builder. So uh with lovable, what happens is like if you make a change, it kind of like rewrites the whole thing, and then like you're playing whack a mole, and I would really not like doing that. And so I can like select parts of the the code with cursor and like just make small changes because I I actually already know I I know what the changes need to be. I just can't be I just don't want to like sit down and do them myself, but I need them to be like very localized changes. Um, and the last reason why is because I'm a cursor ambassador. That's not okay. So so yeah, so that's the other reason why.

Marketplaces, Distribution-First Strategy

SPEAKER_03 1:01:07

Gotcha. I have spent so many nights in lovable and just error loops, not throwing shade at lovable, but I mean I've I've slacked Connor like 2 a.m. Like, dude, I I like my brain's gonna fall out of my ears. Like I just I I can't figure this out.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:22

So and it's not just a lovable thing. I think there are many vibe coding tools in general that are kind of dealing with some of these issues right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:29

So yeah, and um so a bit ago I was doing this thing which I called uh vibe coder doctor sessions. Basically, I'll just come on a call and explain to you like what's going on wrong. Um, but yeah, it's not an uncommon problem, it's like a very common problem that you that you would run into. And like that's the reason why you know when you like work with builders or like engineers, they they they they like they've gone through like I've I've sat through these kind of things overnight and just like googling what the hell is going on kind of thing. So that's why like if you show me an error, I pretty much have seen like most of the errors at this point.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:04

Nice. I have um uh last week before it ran into this roadblock with Google Ads API for our app that we're building, I would have GPT-5 or Sonnet 4.5 basically diagnose what Level is telling me, and I just go back and forth and just my own like sanity and smoke tests, and you know how it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:24

Yeah, yeah, of course. I think that that makes total sense as well. I think like just understanding kind of like what the errors are being thrown and like why they're being thrown, because like sometimes it's like you've asked it to do something that it can't really do, but then it's trying to do that because it's like I must serve the master. Um, and then so like you need to know why it's doing that, and like uh you know, having another LLM kind of like where you like paste in Mac messages and like ask it, hey, am I crazy for doing this? And like give me the actual advice because the vibe coding platform is like, yes, I'll do whatever you tell me to do. Yeah, so it's it's kind of like uh you can't trust it.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:01

Well, um, souk, uh, as as we wrap up here, um, where can where can our listeners find your apps? And where can we find you? Uh like X or if you have a um a YouTube channel, uh please let us know.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:15

Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. Um, so I I can like um send that to you afterwards as well. So LinkedIn would be a great, great place. Um, I'm also I'm happy to like chat with any listeners that you have that are like struggling with any of these things and see where I can be helpful. Um, so I have uh my email is suck at engine.ai, uh engine with a Y. Uh, but email and LinkedIn, that's uh my that's where you would find me.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:39

Email and LinkedIn. Awesome. Well, cool, cool. Suk, thank you for taking a few minutes. Uh great insight shared, especially in the sales part. I think that that's so critical for founders to to learn that and um uh get to know that. So uh thank you for taking a few minutes, and we'll be back next week with another episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

Thank you, Sue.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:57

Thanks, Suk. Uh great interview. Uh Suk, cool dude. Uh, great story. And I I love his insight on sales, by the way, like how important it is to learn how to sell as an engineer by trade.

Tools: Lovable, Cursor, Next.js

SPEAKER_00 1:04:08

And um, you know, what I mean selling in general is important as a founder, right? It's not just about your customers, but it's even just about fundraising, right? Like that whole fundraising process, you are selling, right? If you are talking to a journalist, you are selling, right? And so I think it's not just about acquiring users, right? But it's also all of those other areas as well. Even new employees, right? Like when you're trying to bring a new person on your team, you're selling them, right? Your vision and the business, right? So it's it's more than just the product and getting customers. And I think that's something important for founders to take away that are listening to this as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:45

Yeah, absolutely. I I think the other piece too that I I realized the sales process is great. Again, you don't hear that from a lot of guests because I just don't think they know, right, enough. And I think Suk did a really good job of just giving you the 101s of, hey, if you don't know how to sell, these are the steps you should take, right? This is what you should do. At least it works for for him. It may not be the same for everybody else, but I just thought it was really cool to hear that again from kind of a builder's perspective because you don't get it often. And then the other piece, too, again, it's it's just the human, like the human element to the content that you put out there, right? And the personable touch and giving it the credibility that I think people really crave again, because it's like you can tell when something's fabricated, you can tell when it sounds fake versus when someone's really speaking from the heart and just kind of putting it out there to help give you information that they think is going to be useful. So he was an awesome guest, really cool, good, insightful stuff, especially from somebody who's built 35 plus things in his you know career so far and has only had success with just a few of them. So I thought that was pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

I'm inspired. I'm inspired. I feel like he is the embodiment of one of my favorite quotes, which is to have strong visions that are loosely held, right? So, and basically that what that means is that you know, if if something that you try doesn't end up working out, like there's so many other ways to actually accomplish your vision, right? And your and your mission, I feel like he's done that, right? With just the amount of products that he's built, the amount of products that have failed, but he gets up and he continues to try again. And it's inspiring for me. I'm like, dang, maybe I gotta go and I gotta go build something. Like, I gotta get, I gotta do it. I'm getting that energy.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:21

It is. It's like Charlie, Charlie, just imagine this though. You've gone through it with campaign pilots. I know there's been a few other things here or there, but imagine 30, was it 36?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:30

38, 36. 36.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:32

Charlie, imagine doing what you did for campaign pilots. Granted, over time it gets shorter because you know what you're doing and you're you know doing it for different reasons or whatever, but 36 times of doing what you've done for campaign pilots and just and not giving up, right? And just having the courage to be like, you know what, whatever, this one didn't work, on to the next one. Let's just do it and throw it out.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:54

So I I have in my head right now uh just airloops, air loops, airloops, and staying up until like 2 a.m. Like when like the story, the quick story I told you when I slacked you like 2 15, is like this thing is not gonna be ready. I have that in my head, but I think I I think more than that, it's like how are these things built? How's the foundation like what's the specific problem? I feel like after app maybe or like attempt 10, I feel like your your focus gets so granular, you you can build like like super fast. Um with campaign pilots, I just happen to pick like from what I've been told the two hardest things to do, which is authentication and connectors. And I I have gotten to know one of the support guys at Lovable. Uh, I won't say his name, but yeah, I I dropped his name to MP from Lovable when he was on music, oh yeah, that guy that you know he knew him like like rather than. Oh no way. Uh dealing with that, oh my gosh, just the headspace that it would take. Because I I literally think about that stuff like it before I go to bed at you know midnight or like first thing in the morning, it's like, oh my gosh, I have an idea for that.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:56

I just run to the computer and just like yeah, and sometimes it takes, I think that, you know, it's not the same as building, right? But if I'm building if I'm well, building, yeah, it is building. If I'm building an infrastructure for like a DRM for somebody from a marketing perspective, it's like you have to customize it so much that it could be looked at almost the same way, right? Maybe it's not as technical, but having to do something, being at my desk for eight hours, nine hours, ten hours like straight, no breaks, and just trying to configure things. It's like sometimes you just need to take that. Like, I'm gonna take a nap, I'm gonna go for a walk, I'm gonna give this a rest for two days. And it's so funny sometimes when you come back and look at the problem you were facing that took you six hours to figure out, and after taking a break, it takes you like 20 minutes. Because you're like, oh, wait, that's all I needed to do. And it's there's something to be said for giving your brain that kind of reset instead of looking at the same exact thing every day, hours at a time.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:51

That uh the problem it doesn't go away. It's like impossible, and then you come back. Oh, yeah, I don't know what I was thinking at that point, but anyway. Um, that will wrap up uh episode 23. Uh, we will be back uh next week with another banger, of course. Thank you for listening, and we will be back. Peace.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:13

Bye everyone.