How to Properly Rebrand Your AI Company | Episode #24

We run a live branding workshop to evolve our show from a technical niche to a hub for builders who want customers. We align on audience, mission, naming strategy, and a visual system that supports clarity, distribution, and growth.

• shifting focus from code-heavy identity to traction for indie builders
• two-second test for who it is for and what it does
• how brand, SEO, and paid work together
• why confusing taglines kill conversion
• choosing a name with SEO and trademark in mind
• deciding whether to include AI in the name
• defining core audience and promised transformation
• tone traits: honest, practical, a little fun
• mood boards for dark base with bold color accents
• competitor references and how we differentiate
• next steps: shortlist names, tagline, mini brand guide

Transcript

Setting The Stage And Hosts

SPEAKER_01 0:10

And we're back. What's up, everybody? This is episode 24 of the AI Code Central Podcast, potentially a work in progress name. We're not sure yet.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

So I am here with Mallory Lohr, formerly uh with Bolt.new, Mallory, the community and brand expert, and Connor Douglas, the paid market expert. And myself, I'm on the SEO side of things. So uh this episode, we do not have a uh guest interview. It's more going to be Mallory uh driving the bus on. Let's go. Uh well, yeah. Can you shed more things like you know what will our listeners get out of this? Because like we were saying before we I hit record and we were bullying each other.

SPEAKER_04 0:53

Yeah, they were already bullying me. I'm like, we're gonna go through this exercise today, but we don't know, like I don't understand anything that's not measurable. I'm like, oh gosh. Okay, so what we're doing today, everyone. No, it's okay, it's good. This is this is good. Um is so when I approached the two of them and um started talking with them, or they approached me, I should say, about joining them on the podcast. The one sort of bold thing I mentioned to them is that, hey, um, love the idea, love that we're all all three of us are coming together, but I think we can do, we can improve the brand. Um, for example, I think we can improve the name, we can improve like sort of the visual identity. And so, um, and they're funny, they're like, You're coming in hot. I'm like, yeah, but you know, I think we could, we could, we could level this up. We're gonna have a brand marketer come on to the pod with you guys, right? Like, we gotta, I think we can make it pop a little bit more. And so today we're gonna kind of go through the process of brainstorming what that brand evolution could look like by sort of answering some key questions that we really want the three of us to get aligned on so that we can move forward in sort of ideating a new name and thinking through potential new logo and how we position ourselves, et cetera, et cetera. So you're going to watch us go through a live workshop together today. And then, you know, if you're in the process of either establishing your own brand for a product that you're working on, or perhaps um you're working on a product or brand that's pivoting in a new direction, and that means the brand also needs to change as well, which is kind of what's going on here. This will kind of give you a little bit of a sneak peek as to how you can go about doing that or how you can get started on making that happen.

Why The Brand Needs An Upgrade

SPEAKER_00 2:32

So stay tuned and watch and take notes if you need it. So it's gonna be super insightful. And Mallory, really quick too, like what when you look at a brand, what kind of tells you, like, do you look for key identifiers or something to say, like, yeah, this brand needs work? Or is it kind of just like a as needed basis, right? Like you looked at hours and you're like, yeah, this might need some work based on what? Like, what is what goes on in your mind?

SPEAKER_04 2:59

That's a great question. I think it's a mix of a few things. When I visit a website for the first time, there's two things that tend to stand out to me immediately. I want to know who you are and what you do. And a lot of the times I stumble upon a website and I'm reading a tagline or description that gives me an idea about what the product or the brand could be about, but I actually read it and I become more confused. So when I see things like that, that's automatically like a, okay, interesting. Like, how can we refine this? How can we sharpen it so that anyone who lands on this page within a matter of two seconds understands what you do and who you're for, right? Yeah. So that's the first thing. Second thing for me, um, and this is maybe because I'm a visual person, but I do think that this matters not just within, you know, uh marketing pages, but if you you do um consumer products as an example, right? You're going down the grocery aisle and you're shopping, or you're even looking for a new book at the library or bookstore, right? Like the second thing that I see is the visual aesthetic and the design and of the space, right? And and the pay, the the page itself. So um, and like whether or not it like needs improving, like does it does it go with the flow of what they're trying to actually sell? Um right. Um, and so yeah, I kind of like take a look at those two things first. Um, and it's more of like a the the visual piece is more of like a vibe check, right? Like it's like, am I like kind of the right consumer or person for this product and uh or this brand? And we all have our own, you know, sort of tastes and aesthetics on it, depending on what product or brand that we're looking at. And so that matters to me. Obviously, like the product being reliable itself um and being of of quality is very, very important. But when it comes to first impressions, uh that that does matter to me to some extent.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

It's just super cool because it's like coming from you know the performance marketing thing. Again, we're kind of jabbing at each other here and there, but still it it works, it all works collectively, right? Like the branding piece complements the performance marketing piece in some capacity because I look at a website and I'm not looking for those things at all, right? I'm like, okay, CTA placement, UI, UX, flow, like how what does the site map look like? Like Charlie, that's a thing you would look at, right? And it's one and so keywords, yeah. Insightful and and funny in some capacity to look at it when someone's like brand marketing, right? Like what you look at as compared to what I would look for, and even Charlie, you'd probably look for something totally different than what we'd look for from an SEO perspective. So again, it's yeah, the meaning of the minds here is awesome. So again, you guys are gonna get a lot of good information out of it. Um, but the branding piece is just something that just goes so over my head that I'm just really excited to kind of jump into this thing.

What Great Brands Signal On First Contact

SPEAKER_04 5:47

And look, like all of these things in my mind work together. Like if you're able to nail down the CT, because the CTA is important, right? Like all of those things, like you need to make sure you're, you know, placing that CTA button in a place that's actually going to capture a lead or a sign up, right? Like conversion matters. And so all of these things kind of play together. But unfortunately, I think when it comes to the branding piece, a lot of it is so subjective that sometimes it does become difficult to measure. But for the brands that you know really stand out, it clearly is a differentiator for them. And it does, it does actually can lead to conversion. So when all of these things are are you know working together in harmony.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Awesome, sweet, awesome, good. Let's let's do this because uh yeah, you can clearly tell that the name and uh the direction of the podcast when it started was screwed by an SEO guy. So yeah, that's gonna need some work. Um excited for this. And before we hit go on this, before you get Florida on this, uh, as we record on November 4th, Halloween was over the weekend. As we catch up real quick here, how was uh Mallory? How was your Halloween weekend?

SPEAKER_04 6:59

Okay, I don't think my weekend was nearly as exciting as the as you two, but um, as I was recovering from being sick, uh, which was not fun, but dressed up as a cow coastal cow girl and was able to go trick-or-treating with my niece and nephew on golf carts with some sick candy. I saw a six-seven pumpkin, which made me realize how old I am. Um, and then this neighborhood had like a bunch of tables where they were giving adults wine. So I'm like, okay, like this is this is bougie. Like this is the this is the Halloween experience that I should have gotten when I I was growing up. So honestly, I can't complain and had brunch with some friends this weekend, and um, you know, just just chilled and rested up and and here we are. So honestly, I don't have a lot of great updates because I was a little sickies.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

I feel like I wouldn't expect anything less than a table with wine for adults in the California area. Like it just it just adds up way too much.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Connor, it was how's your weekend? It was oh man, I'm finally recovered, I feel like. So today's what? Tuesday? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Friday was Halloween. Went down to the New York City parade. I dressed up as a clown. I wish I should have brought the picture-ups just to share if people really wanted to be entertained. But my wife did it too. So we were just like a scary clown couple, went down to the city, saw the parade, which is awesome. I think it's better than the Thanksgiving Day parade, but all parades are kind of a pain in the butt because they're so crowded. But anyway, saw that. And then before you know it, I'm out till 3 a.m. at a karaoke bar in St. Mark Street in Lower Manhattan. And I just turned to my wife. I'm like, I think it's time to go. And I probably sounded more like, I think it's time to go, something like that. But you know, it was time to go. Got home, went on the couch, and then at like 6 a.m., 6:30 a.m., I'm literally in my costume, almost sitting. If someone walked by me, I looked like a, you know, like a prop or something, just sitting upright on my couch, like fast asleep. And then I just wake up like one of those, like, you know, falling off a cliff in your dream where I'm like, like, oh my gosh, I wake up and I look at the clock and I'm like, oh my God, it's 6 a.m. Went into my bed, slept for another six or seven hours, lots of water, lots of, you know, supplements, like, you know, a good bacon, egg, and cheese, as any New Yorker would have. And by Sunday it was okay. Yesterday was good. Today I'm back to 100%. So I'll just say it was awesome, had a blast. It's I don't want to do it again.

SPEAKER_04 9:28

Wait, wait, what's your go-to karaoke song? I must know.

Branding vs Performance vs SEO

SPEAKER_00 9:31

So it's who it's Hootie and the Blowfish. I only want to be with you because it's such a good one. Everybody knows it, it's really catchy. So I'll typically go that route with it. So we did do that at karaoke night. Um, the other songs, uh gosh, you could pay me a thousand bucks per song, and I wouldn't remember any of the other ones. Oh, really? I will it was it was a crazy, I felt like I was in like pop. Did we have bust? Did we have shows? Oh, yeah, that was the biggest mistake.

SPEAKER_04 9:57

So No, that's not the mistake. That's the that's the good part.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Well, for you, that's not for me, on top of probably the copious amount of like beer I had had before. Like, I think I probably had I had a beer before I left, and then we went into a bar before we met with friends at the parade, had two there. I probably had like four or five beers before I started a shot, and then there was a shot of tequila, a shot of Jameson, and a lemon drop in there. And it was it was just it was heinous, guys.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Like, okay, well, look, you were mixing. You were mixing. So, like you know, I should have just had tequila.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

I know, I kind of stuck with one, but it was just one of those things where you're in the moment, and and at in the moment, you know, if you're like, oh, this is great, I'll be okay, like, no problem. And it's like it just the night just fast forwards until it's like 3 a.m. And I'm like, okay, I think it's the sleep more than the drinking, in my opinion. I think the lack of sleep and disruption that alcohol causes to your system is like 50% of the hangover the next day. I think it's just you're just wiped out and so tired. But I don't know, it's a theory I don't want to test out again. So it'll be very easy going for the next couple of weeks, if not months.

SPEAKER_04 11:08

I mean, like the fact that it took you four days to bounce back and you're I mean, like, that's actually pretty good. Like, I hear people take like a week to two, like to really Really? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Oh my gosh, I feel like four days is a lot.

SPEAKER_03 11:22

So you're like four days, like that's pretty good for our age, I think.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

College days, I could go out, get up the next morning, and be like, I'm ready to go again. Grant, that's you know, 20 years ago. I'm talking about for me, I'm really aging myself. But um, no, it's like you know, I don't know. I think like four days was a long time, but I guess I guess I'll uh I'll take that compliment as being a fast quick recovery.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

I need food and naps the the next morning, and then I'm I'm good. And then exercise, I'll just run or hop on the bike or something.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Yeah, but that was that was the weekend. So, Charlie, what's up with you?

SPEAKER_01 11:52

What would you get up to?

SPEAKER_04 11:53

Yeah, Charlie.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Uh so uh weekend was good, Halloween was good. We uh met up with some friends. We were legends of the hitting temple, so we were contestants on there. So we had like helmet, shirt, um uh the the hand, the the gloves, you know, with the the no fingers and the gloves. Like the fingerless gloves? Yeah, fingerless gloves, yeah. That's what I was trying to say. Uh we were that we got compliments like like all night. One guy offered to to buy us all around. We're like, uh maybe not right now. I would have said yes.

SPEAKER_04 12:23

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Maybe we we kind of pump the brakes on that right now. But yeah, got compliments. Um we went to we went to a couple bars. Uh I played darts. I haven't played darts in a long time. Um cricket, Charlie. It it's it's harder, you know, and you get some beer in me that night. So it's kind of hard to aim, you know, when you're um a little bundled. But um, that was fun. That was cool. Next morning, yeah, I hated my life. Uh yeah, just nap and food, just carbs, just just hungry, hungry hippo. Just stuffed my face with food and then um felt fine after that.

Lighthearted Halloween Catch‑Up

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Did you have like any of the what were the guys who used to pop out in Legends of the Hidden Temple that when you were doing like the course at the end, yeah, and they'd like pop out and grab you, and that's how you would like lose basically and win the game.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Uh no, I forgot what they're called, but we did have Penance of Life. So I would like I'd walk from the bar over to our table, I'd go penants of life, and I'd like show it, like not show it in their face, but I'd like like over tables. I would do that, and they'll start laughing, like, dude, that's that's awesome. That's and they'd like I took a picture with one pendants of life, and I would do that. So we we had like um homemade pennants of life that my girlfriend made. Uh so no, we did not run into guards. Uh luckily I had penants of life. So um sweet, that was cool. So uh that night, uh Saturday, uh it was fun. Actually, no, it wasn't because I just kind of I laid low. Sunday, oh, heartbreak in Canada because we do have a Canadian audience as well. That is brutal. That is absolutely brutal.

SPEAKER_04 13:56

Really, oh I watched it when he I mean so I mean, I just like I actually my husband was cheering for the Blue Jays, and then I was like indifferent because I'm like, we're in California, like you know, it but it's like also the Dodgers win a lot, they're the highest paid, like you know, uh base team in baseball, nobody can stand them. So we're both cheering for for Toronto, and I really thought they were gonna win at the end there. I was shocked, uh, but it was a really good game. Like, I don't grew up watching baseball and I'm not like too much into it, but I was like, this is this is good. I was hooked, and then there was like a fight happening, and like and I don't remember which inning, and then I thought it was I'm like, why is everyone coming onto the field for this little baby like that?

SPEAKER_00 14:36

That's what they do in baseball. It's happening.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

This is dramatic. It's very dramatic.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

I love it. Yeah, it I I don't like baseball. I just never got into it, it was just not my thing. I grew up playing hockey, and uh yeah, I was like, this is this is nuts. This is great, this is so awesome.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

But they don't fight like they do in hockey, they live like someone will like stub their toe or something, and then everyone's on the field, they're going to war.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

And I'm like, the guy said the F word, like there, it wasn't like anything really, they didn't even touch each other.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

And the funniest part, nothing happens when they all come out, they all just stare at each other and they'll kind of like fake hold each other back, and they're like, No, man, don't go after him. And it's like the guy, like, nothing's going on here, guys. Like, go back to your duck dad.

SPEAKER_04 15:19

Whereas in hockey, they're just like they're hitting each other's faces, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Like, they're you know what guys don't act like idiots because you can punch each other square in the face. Correct, correct. That stuff doesn't happen, so it really keeps everybody honest, is what that does. Uh, speaking of that, I played hockey Sunday morning. That that's really when I burned everything out. It's 3v3, so it's a real shiny ice sheet. And I play goalie, so I was oh yeah, I'm gassed. My legs are still sore. So uh that was cool. And uh yeah, just this morning, huge news, and I was slacking Connor before he hit record. Uh, we got Google Ads API finally approved. So let's go. The next 48 hours of my life are gone. Uh, I'm going to cover all of my windows. I was telling y'all, I'm gonna turn off all my notifications. I'm just gonna reject everything. Like, like next time you guys see me, like my fingernails are gonna be along. My beard is like, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:15

But that's this is an SEO marketer's dream, you guys. An SEO marketer's dream right here.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Yeah, so we got uh approval for the Google Ads API. So now our app, our AI app that we're building, campaign pilots, will be fully functional. So that is huge. Super excited about that. So uh that was a very long intro, but um, yeah, that is our that was our weeks. So um, all right, let's let's gear up. Let's uh let's do this. Let's um let's talk about this branding for AI.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Let's talk about branding. I want you to to come at us like if we were also, I mean, in some capacity, I'm assuming you're treating this as you would any client, but I really just want you to like attack everybody.

SPEAKER_04 16:58

I mean, look, I kind of already did. I kind of already did. I could but I wasn't a nice plan. I was like, well, I was like, you guys, can we update the brand? Like, wow, you got you're so direct. I'm like, well, it's it's because it's not good.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

So that is great. Well, because it's not ugly. So one more thing. Have you ever said that to a client when they're like, well, why do we need to update? And you're like, well, it's not good. Like oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:22

Yeah. I mean, it's just, yeah, it's bad.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

You gotta call their baby ugly, you know.

SPEAKER_04 17:26

I don't mind, I don't mind being that blunt. So um as long as you can fix it. Of course. Look, I'm not the type to be like, it's ugly and figure it out yourself. Like, you know, that's not very supportive or helpful. I'm not, you know, but I'm gonna call it as I see it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

All right.

SPEAKER_04 17:43

It can use some work. So look, okay, our goal here for the session is to really sort of define a new brand identity and a name. And we're not gonna necessarily lock down a name this session. This is kind of the building blocks for me to then like, or even a few of us, um, to kind of go in and start cooking and thinking about some names, which is what I want to do after the session is over. Um, but we really kind of want to figure out how we can capture like our shared expertise across marketing or across like advertising, growth marketing, SEO marketing, brand marketing, and figure out how we combine that into our brand is really important. And so I think that we have grown from uh sort of being this technical podcast into sort of a hub for founders and builders and marketers who want to go from idea to traction. And I have brand here, but like idea to traction is a great way to put it. Um, and that was what we talked about even yesterday, Charlie, to some extent, right? Of like, you know, there's a lot of folks that are here that are building, but it's like, how do I crack distribution? How do I get traction? How do I, and like the brand is one part of that, right? Um, and the traction piece is interesting too, in that, you know, we were talking about like brand marketing doesn't like translate to like, you know, direct growth. What I will say is that when you are building a brand, you are building it for your end user in mind, right? And so if that's the case, right, and you're really sort of targeting the right person, like realistically, brand should be able to like draw that person in, right? Because we crafted a brand that's specifically targeting that persona or those personas in general. Um, so I think that the next phase for us is to really kind of reflect on who we are as a as a team and you know, figure out how we can take our superpowers and meld it into something, uh, a brand that we can really be proud of and uh carry in the long term. So this is kind of my why. My why is a few things. I think the name AI Code Central sounds a little too technical and a little developer-oriented. So when I hear the word code for me, I'm like, okay, like I'm gonna, I'm gonna listen to this podcast and I'm going to learn how to sharpen my technical skills or my developer skills. And I don't like I don't think that is what we're about. Um, there are, I mean, like Charlie, I know you have technical, like you have a technical background and you can provide some of that that knowledge and expertise, but like that is not necessarily what we're for or like what the type of content we're trying to put out.

From Technical Roots To Traction Focus

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Right. And uh I started the podcast. You know what? The original idea was to have all these AI tools because when I got back, when I got like when I fell down the rabbit hole of building with AI, there's all these tools coming out. And I was like, uh, I don't know, like what's the difference between like what's the real difference between lovable and bold? Like for for a general like prosumer, as you can call it. And um I started this to really talk about the differences between these tools. And as an SEO background, uh, okay, well, I can go after the keyword AI code because that has an astronomical keyword volume to it, and it's really not that uh difficult to rank for. And I would search that keyword and be like, this is bananas, and the trend on it, like if you look at glimpse data, the trend on it is is crazy. So that's basically how I started. Like the the initial idea, and then as we talked to more founders and you know, did research, you know, we would hear the the the number one complaint was always how do we get customers after Reddit, after X, after Product Hunt, after okay, we we get it live, we hit deploy, we get we get ads, you know, we get API approval. Okay, now what? How do we get customers? And then it started to kind of transition. So the name AI Code Central, yeah, it's it's not good. And I think to trend you know, changing and transitioning that um to our target audience, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_04 21:46

Connor, you were gonna say something.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Yeah, yeah. Sorry. So I guess too, it's like there is something to be said from the SEO standpoint, right? And I guess that's kind of the balance. Uh Meller, you've probably heard this before, right? Maybe somebody named something, their business a certain thing because of SEO, right? Because it helps with local traffic or just they're seeing trends, right? And and there is something to be said for that. And it's almost like, well, what trumps what? Does brand trump the SEO? Does SEO trump the brand? Do you try and meet in the middle? I feel like meeting in the middle probably is a detriment to the SEO piece, not so much the branding piece, but you know, how do you deal with something like that where again, A Code Central, tons of traffic, and that's how we can get some visibility, but maybe it's not the right visibility, right? Which is something to your point too. It's just right asking a why now.

Name, SEO, And Trademark Tradeoffs

SPEAKER_04 22:33

Um look, I think when it comes to choosing a name, you definitely have to have SEO in mind. I don't think there's any doubt about that. Going through that process, you have to have trademarks in mind. Can you really own this? Like, does it make sense? Like all of these things I think are important to consider. I will share that, you know, during my time at um bolt.new, which is kind of the the actual name, like we use the word bolt, but realistically it's bolt.new. Right. The company is actually named Stack Blitz. And then when they announced this new product, it was Bolt.new. And so I kind of came in and I was like, look, like this name is not bad. But the problem is, is like Bolt, the word itself, is actually being used by like a car company and you know, another tech company and a sports team and another tech company in Europe. And so there's no opportunity to really sort of own that word. And then the dot new component, I'm like, look, works for now, but it's not gonna work in the long term, right? That that domain, you can only be new for so long. And so um, right? So like that's a great example, in my opinion, of being like, okay, we need to change the name. Um, and it clearly does not work for SEO purposes. Um, so in my mind, naming is not just about like, is the customer gonna love it? Is it going to be a is it like three syllables and snappy? Can we find the domain? But I think the SEO piece is very important to really understand do you have the capacity to actually rank on Google, right? If you decide to go forward with this game name. Um, talking about vibe coding space, like lovable is a great example of I think choosing that name, it feels very special to them, right? Like, I don't know of any other company or sports team or what have you named lovable, right? Um and so for them to just they can really own that word. I mean, yeah, I guess it's an adjective or whatever that people can use to describe others or what have you, but that's not a name that's like for SEO purposes, right, is being like ranked from other businesses or sports teams or whatever it may be, right? So wanna say just that like SEO does matter when it comes to choosing a name, it should be a part of it. But going back to your point, Connor, it's like, are we attracting the right people? Like if we are AI code central and people are expecting to learn that sort of um knowledge from us, like, and then they don't get that from us, there's gonna be a little bit of confusion. I think we want to like choose a name and um and then like develop our brand in a way where it makes it very clear on who who we're for um and what we're about.

unknown 25:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

So no, that makes all the sense in the world too. And I think like the key thing too is is the uniqueness of it, right? That's one thing because of the trademark, right? Having that is a step above and beyond what a lot of other people do, but making sure that it's unique again to the point where it speaks to what the user is looking for, what they may be seeking. So no, that all makes sense again. Just kind of something I wanted to throw out there. Um cool, cool.

SPEAKER_04 25:26

And and look, it's it's interesting because like I have worked with like naming agencies that have a whole, like they have a whole process and how they'd go through this. And if you are an early stage startup, I wouldn't worry too much about trademarks. Like you really got to figure out whether or not that name or your product's going to have some amount of longevity. And so I do recommend in the early, early, early stages, don't get tripped up over being like, I have to get this trademarked, this name trademarked. Like you, you may you may not use it in six to 12 months from then because you are just you're trying to figure out if your product's actually gonna have any amount of PMF. And to me, that is that's that's more important than nailing down the right name.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

So yeah, you gotta get that first, I think. Um so through this exercise, the following exercise is plural that we'll be doing. Mallory, will we brainstorm names, name ideas then?

SPEAKER_04 26:17

Of like how we come up with it, and like yeah, I mean, I'd love to hear what you guys have to say or like what name ideas that you have. Um, yeah, and honestly, like I've done things like I've done so there's so many name generators out there that you can use. I've even used things like Chat GPT, and they're not, they don't get me to a hundred percent, but they do start getting just some like different parts of words like cooking in my brain that I could potentially use. So if you are out there and you're just like, how do I even approach naming in general? Lots of just decent name generators, you know, like you like if you kind of start a one pager like this and have a few name ideas in mind, you can even toss that to Claude or ChatGPT. And like I said, it's not gonna give you the name, right? But it'll give you some some starting points to at least work with. Um, so hopefully that's helpful too. Another reason why I I think it's important for us to evolve the brand now, and we've kind of already talked about this, right? Our audience is shifting from builders who code to builders who market. And it's kind of it's it's both, right? Like builders are not just coders anymore, like they also have to figure out distribution. And so all three of us are uh, you know, have different disciplines of marketing. And so, how can we help builders with that distribution piece, right? Because we know it's such a problem um in the AI space.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

I think it's from what I've been told doing these these interviews online and off offline too, is that distribution is the new moat. With the number of apps just popping up, there's some poo-poo out there, just websites and everything, distribution is the new moat. So I think uh on top of your brand too, obviously. So yeah, um, this is good. I am I am excited and um yeah, do do your thing. I'm 100% open to being bullied and and uh told where to go with this.

SPEAKER_04 28:05

What else? Um the visual identity, I don't think matches the creativity, humor, and energy of what we what we can provide. Like, let me let me pull this up. Let's see. AI Code Central.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

And just a heads up here, too, for for people uh listening. Uh she's sharing her screen. So on YouTube.

Audience Shift: Builders Who Market

SPEAKER_04 28:24

Okay, so I'm pulling up our YouTube right now. So anyone can do this. I'm on our AI Code Central YouTube page, um, and just kind of getting a visual of you know how our identity comes to life within the thumbnails and the logo. Like, what is this logo tell me? I don't know. It's a microphone, it tells me that it's or a podcast of some sort, but doesn't tell me much more than that. And to me, like the the branding he'll here feel feels very dark and doesn't have any contrast to it. And you know, we're featuring so many different builders and founders. And so, how can we provide a little bit of personality or color to what we have here, right? Um and I mean there's definitely a template, so that's good. Like we're kind of trying to templatize our our assets, but this just kind of feels dark and boring and lame to me, to be like quite honest. Like that's that it feels and it feels extremely techy. Like, I'm it's just like every freaking developer tech site that I go to is like black and dark blue, and it's and I get it, it's an aesthetic, and that's at the core. We talked about this kind of a little bit, but we talked a little bit about how at the core there is this sort of aesthetic that we like. So, how do we build on top of it without being like, we're throwing all of this away and we're starting all over? Right. Because we're not doing that. And I to anyone listening, right? Like, you don't need to do that. In fact, I would encourage you to be like, okay, at the core, like, who are we and what do we want to keep that we feel like best represents us even in the next iteration and evolution of our brand? When I worked at Discord, we did this. It was like, I worked on repositioning the brand to expand outside of games when the company was ready to do so. But at the core, we were gamers. And so that was something that we could not forget within our brand personality, voice, and tone, within the way that our visual identity would show up. We can't we can't forget to speak to those folks because it is the core of the platform, right? And so obviously it's not in this intense with this example, right? But if we really sort of, this is like who we are, we kind of like always want to keep a part of that with us as we as we change and grow over time. I think that's really important. But yeah, I mean, I that's all I really have to say. Like it's just, it's simple, it's dark. It's not like the worst thing in the world by any means, but it's just, it feels like it could use a little oomph, a little personality, a little, maybe a little bit of color, a splash of it, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Um so Mallory, too, with that, because I agree too, right? Again, it's very, you know, dark and and very plain and simple, which I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I do very much agree with the point of our audience. Like this isn't for our audience, right? This would be for a very, this is like an engineer audience, right? They may be very interested and maybe intrigued by this in some capacity, you know, it's like if we're trying to pull in marketers, which we are doing, and early builders, they may be looking for something a little bit more fun, easygoing that doesn't look as it does, it represents very technical step by step by step, where somebody's probably looking for something a little more engaging from a tutorial perspective. Do you how do you then come up with color schemes, right? Or like aesthetics? Like, is that, you know, I know there's mood boards that we've spoken about, and you can pull inspiration from other websites or accounts, etc. But is there anything to be said for, okay, if this is your target audience, like there are some suggestions that I would make based on that when it comes to an aesthetic?

SPEAKER_04 31:40

That's a great question, actually. Um, because to me, aesthetic is a mix of like, okay, definitely a mix of what the end customer or consumer would like to see. Yes. But then it should also represent, you know, the folks within the company or within the brand as well. Because I've had like, I don't know if I told you guys this. I think I did, but a few weeks ago I spoke to a brand and they were like, we just want to be, or a company, just we just want to be a cool brand. Help us, help us like create a cool brand, right? Which like which is very broad and sure, I can definitely create a cool brand. And as we dug into it, I started asking, I'm like, okay, who are the types of people that work here? Like, what are your personas, right? Like, what are the types of personalities that we see here? And so as we started digging in, he was like, Well, we have really dedicated researchers here, which like isn't a cool persona. I'm like, but but but like that that's not about it, doesn't have to be cool. Like at the end of the day, if parts of the brand don't resonate with the folks that actually work within the product or brand itself, it's you're not gonna be able to execute on it because you're executing on something that is not even representative of who you are, like a part of you or like core of what the product used to be. Like, and so like I yeah, I can make a cool brand, but if nobody internally resonates with it, it's gonna flop. It's not going to, it's not gonna do well, right? So it has to resonate with the end consumer in mind, but then it has to be reflective of the humans that are actually creating the brand and creating the product. So it's got to have a little bit of both and have that harmony if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

No, absolutely does because I think too, uh you add a little piece in or a big piece in of the people who are actually behind the actual business itself. Again, it gives it that humanity component that we talk about often, right? And that's what gets people to connect and feel connected in the community aspect and engage, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, it makes total sense. I mean, yeah, and if you're not passionate about what you're actually putting out there in terms of the look and feel, I mean, it's it's empty at that point. You're just doing it for the sake of doing it.

What We Stand For And Mission Seeds

SPEAKER_04 33:41

So exactly, exactly. And I don't know, I mean, like for example in this moment, I'm thinking of our interview with Suk and just the fact that, like, you know, he's had such a colorful sort of background in building 35 products, 28 have failed, he's super resilient, he continues to build. Um, he's trying to learn all parts of not just like being a technical sort of like founder, but like the sales component, the marketing component. Like, we just we get to meet so many awesome people with different backgrounds, and I feel like the aesthetic of what we have doesn't represent that that factor, if that makes sense. Like it it feels like it's not giving them the vibe or aesthetic that like they're putting out into the world, if that makes any sense. I don't know. But uh so we deserve to kind of like give them that, yeah, give them that vibe that you know they're putting out into the world with with what we're trying to create. Um so one thing, like I'm I've also took a look at our LinkedIn. Um, and when you go through this, like I I recommend looking at where your brand is located. It's not just about the marketing channels. And in this case, you know, we're still starting out, so we're we have only a few of these pages, but if you also have a product, I would also go through the product and be like, how does the brand resonate within the product as well? Right. And it doesn't just have to be visual identity or like a little icon. It can even be as simple as how does this product speak directly to the user, right? Like what is that tone like? Um, what it what is that, what is that like? And so I'm very big on like how do you, as you evolve the brand, make sure it's consistent across all touch points, whether that's the product, the marketing channels, how you speak to users, all of that is sort of um something I think about when going through this process. Um, but yeah, and then just like reading through this, right? Like all of this is true, right? Um AI Code Central is where builders and founders and creators learn how to turn AI ideas into real traction. That's that's true. Um we talk about our combined experience. All of this is true. So this feels um at least true to what we are about. My my thing would be like, how do we simplify this? How do we make it catchier?

SPEAKER_03 35:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:53

Um, so that someone reads it in 10 seconds, so like, boom, like I know what that's about and already know what this is about. And that's a very hard exercise for for founders to go through. Um is it's just like getting that positioning down to like a few words is is not an easy exercise to go through, but like would want us to over time to figure out how we can like this is our long version, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:15

But like what's our elevator pitch version of it?

SPEAKER_04 36:18

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

Yeah, thank you, Connor. Exactly. Two sentences, three sentences. This is what we do, this is who we serve, this is what you'll get from it, right?

SPEAKER_04 36:25

Like exactly hitting all the edges. Exactly. So okay, now now that we kind of set the stage as for like why we're actually doing this, the next step is to kind of go through and answer just some like high-level questions. And you can do this on your own if you're a solo founder, if you know you've got a team of folks that you know, um I mean, if you've got a small team of people too, like it's worth taking everybody through this because what I've also learned is that, you know, if you're going to change the brand, you want to like bring the company along for the ride and you want them to have an and it's not like every single person has to be a part of it per se, but you want to bring them along for the ride and sort of make sure that the work they're doing represents the way that the brand is coming to life and or how it will change, right? So, first question is like, what do we stand for? What do we stand for? That's a very these are gonna be like hard questions because it's like you got to really take a step back, right? But like, what do we stand for?

SPEAKER_01 37:20

That is a great question. That is a great question.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

I haven't even thought of that. Um well, I guess that's it right there, too. If we haven't thought about it, right? That's such a foundational piece, is what what do we stand for, not just who do we serve. What a question. Like, what are what are we trying to accomplish? And I think it's standing for AI Code Central, the name as as it is now, it's education and resources and networking um availability for early builders, for marketers, for people who want to take their apps and builds and go to market, right? So I think we stand for that education, being that education educative, excuse me, resource for all of these people and sharing that wealth of knowledge as opposed to some people who just they either gatekeep it or they don't want to share it, or they're gonna charge you for it. And we want to make things accessible for everybody to be able to take their app that they've built, roll it out there, and feel confident in their go-to-market plan, right? So I I think we really stand for enabling and giving power to early builders to not only take the build and and roll it out there and deploy it, but also understand how to market it and gain some traction with it.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

I think uh I don't think I I want this to be the hub for builders, founders in the AI space, app, company, whatever, whatever your product is to come to to learn and scale your company, whether that's so my initial thought was you know, paid acquisition, uh SEO, and now that we have branding, those three components will enable you to do that. And then eventually when we get into uh capital allocation, you'll be able to do that faster as a founder with with our resource hub, which is this.

SPEAKER_04 39:01

That's interesting. Okay. So sorry, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

I don't know if that if that kind of fits with with you guys, because I've I feel like um, or I've never had you know, with my agency background, I've heard a bunch of stories when founders are not aligned. That's when things break.

SPEAKER_04 39:15

I mean, that's definitely true from my experience. Um, I think what was really interesting between Connor's answer, uh Connor's answer and your answer, Charlie, is the like you focus less on the marketing and more on the scaling, but scaling could mean anything, right? Like scaling to your point, like it could it it could be it could be brand SEO growth, it could be community content, it could be like there's so many ways we can go down that direction. So that's really interesting. Whereas I feel like Connor kind of went down the road of like the education component one, which I think we all agree on. Like I think we all agree on, you know, and that's why I joined. I personally joined because I was like, look, I have just such a I have a lot of knowledge around how to do brand community and content marketing. And yes, I've started sharing that on LinkedIn, but like, what are the other ways I can share my knowledge with the world? Because I really want to help young people. I want this knowledge to be more accessible to builders, just like you mentioned, Connor. Um, but I feel like Charlie kind of like simplified that and learning and scaling. I heard those two words like kind of pop up at me. I've heard education, learning, scaling, early stage builders go to market. Like those are the kind of the words I'm hearing pop up as themes right now.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

Yeah, I think that's absolutely fair too, right? It's like I was gonna ask you too, like, how do you take that kind of feedback and like you know, simplify it, right? Because I just gave a very long-winded answer. Charlie has something that doesn't exactly align, but there are pieces in there that do align with what I said. So, I mean, and you just answer my question for me. It's like you just were listening, took the words out that you saw some correlation to, and it's like, hey guys, if this is it, yeah, these are the pillars that we should stand on in regards to the question here.

Problems In AI Marketing Education

SPEAKER_04 40:57

I think from from this, this is how this turns into like a mission vision statement. And that's really important because uh it is sort of the North Star on how on where you're guiding not just your brand, but like your product and your company over time. Like, and so that to me is is what this will eventually turn into. Like this discussion on who we on what do we stand for is will turn into that over time. Um, or as a next step, that's what I will work on. Um, even if we're like, I would just take components of what we're saying and I would figure out how to craft a really short but uh punchy vision that like we we're we're all gonna rally around and be like, yeah, right. Um but I would have you react to that, I'd have you give feedback. But that's kind of the purpose of why I'm asking this question and taking the the words that you guys are saying and trying to find a way to combine that into something that works for the three of us.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

Yeah, it's great. I think uh I I have it written down here in quotes. How one of the pillars when you were saying, Connor, learn how to market your app. That's what I've got. Between our expertise, you'll a listener, viewer, learn how to properly do that.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

I think it takes, I would assume too, Rally, right? Like you said, this probably takes a lot of iteration and really going through it, right? It's like we're all saying things right here. Sure, we could come up with what we stand for, you know, in two minutes and throw it on there. But I think it takes a little bit longer to really think through it, make sure there's some alignment there, or is it something that is relatively quick?

SPEAKER_04 42:24

So usually what I will do, like after we go through this process, I would put together a really short brand guide and be like, okay, this is our vision, this is our mission, this is who we're serving, right? Like very and and keep it super like short and sweet and to the point. If we can't agree on those points, then like we gotta go back to the drawing board. But um, you know, a a tagline. Here's a tagline or the way that we would describe ourselves, right? So like going back to our LinkedIn and being like, hey, what Charlie wrote is not bad, by the way. So Charlie, what you wrote was not bad and it wasn't false, it was true. It's like, how do we elevator pitch the hell out of it, you know? And because that I'm not gonna lie to you, I don't want to read that whole thing, right? But for but look, for SEO purposes, it it is important, actually. It is important to have that longer description, especially when it comes to like app store pages and like all this other stuff that we don't need to get into today, right? But like, um, so part of the messaging is like, how do you break that down into something more longer form? But like, how do you also keep it really high level and short and sweet to the point? Because this is what's important is everyone in your company should be talking about the company and the product in the same way. And that comes back to the messaging and positioning of what and the vision and what we stand for. If everyone's talking about the product or the brand in a different way, it means that there's not alignment on messaging and positioning. And perhaps if if there's no like even alignment on strategy, like is there a vision and mission that the whole company is even rallying around? Right, like, which I don't see too much of, right? But um, I do see a lot of startups that I'll like consult with or I'll walk into people describing the product differently. And so when I actually go in and do sort of like brand consulting, what I'll do is I'll talk to everyone at the exec level. I'll talk to the marketing team, I'll talk to engineers, I'll talk to everyone that I can potentially talk to and ask them if you had to describe this product to a friend, how would you pitch it? And I get all sorts of answers. And so from there, I take all of that data, plus what I can gather from users to then help craft that messaging and positioning, right? And to make sure that everyone's talking about it in the same way. So if Connor, you're gonna go talk to Business Insider about whatever you're working on, it better be consistent with the way that Charlie is posting about it on X, the way that Mallory is, you know, in the Discord community and talking with our user, like it should be consistent, right? Yep.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

So it's that makes a ton of sense. And that also sounds if there is difference, like cultural misalignment, even right, like work culture and when all that stuff, which is integral.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

When all of this is aligned, Mallory, what's the end result?

Defining Our Core Audience

SPEAKER_04 45:01

What's the end result? The end result kind of goes back to what I mentioned earlier. So the end result is, you know, having like at least the like on the messaging and positioning side of things, right? Making sure that it is clear across every single, it's consistent and it's clear, right? And it across YouTube, LinkedIn, the website, right? Like FAQs, uh help center articles. Like I'm uh I we're not doing that. But like for someone who's listening, right? Yeah, you know, even if it's like uh how we actually respond to customer support tickets, right? Making sure the brand personality and voice and tone, the messaging, like this is all the high-level stuff, but this, but this does drill in to, you know, how other teams across the company can implement the brand guide into the work that they do, which is um actually a small example is when I was at Bolt, um, I worked with a wonderful designer named Fiona, where we created this and crafted this brand guide for Bolt. And we went to all of the teams across the company and we taught them, hey, this is actually how you apply the brand to exactly what you're working on, right? Um, so that they understood that, you know, like, hey, this is this is the brand and this is how we can keep it keep it consistent on CX, on product, on engineering, right? Um, so that is like kind of the the outcome is that the whole company kind of becomes aligned on this and they're they're sort of infusing that throughout, you know, their workflows and their messaging. Um and then like the external facing channels also, you know, have that sort of lift and that they're all consistent and have the same messaging and positioning across the board. Um, and then of course, like, and we haven't really talked about this too much, but if you do have a lot of competitors in your sort of industry or um in general, I would absolutely take a look at the way they are messaging and positioning their product. Who are they targeting? Are they targeting consumers? Are they targeting businesses, right? Like, how is your product different or better? That stuff also matters, and we're not really talking about it too much yet, but um that should also kind of be obvious in the outcome of what you're seeing, right? Like you, if I like go on our website, it's like, oh wow, like we just came up with the same messaging and positioning as as like the three other vibe coding tools that uh are in our market, then you're not that you you didn't really do anything. In fact, you are just uh you just copycatted someone else. Um, so I do see that happen from time to time as well. It's kind of just like copy what other people are doing. Um, and that's not differentiating yourself or positioning yourself up for success either.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

That's where that uniqueness component comes in, right? That's not even with the name, that's with the service offering and the value proposition. And you know, what is someone getting out of you that they're not getting out of the guy next to you, right? Like that's exactly.

SPEAKER_04 47:46

Exactly.

Tone: Honest, Practical, And Fun

SPEAKER_01 47:47

So this is a question, Mallory, for you for uh with your experience in our audience that is most likely used both tools. Hopefully, it doesn't open up a can of worms. Um so like not too complex, but is the difference I this is just what I gathered. Is the difference between bolt and lovable? And this is just based on messaging and I guess brand at this point. Yeah, is bolt more technical and is lovable more based on design?

SPEAKER_04 48:16

No, no, not at all. And like no, and that and look, if that's what you gather and that's a perception, then like that's that's what you gathered, that's the perception. I think that so, and it's tough because the vibe coding space has moved rapidly and things change, and so it might not be the best example, but it is an AI, so it's a good one to call out. I think that lovable is in a position to be very prosumer consumer oriented. And so to me, like their brand gives Apple, it gives like, you know, uh easy and friendly to use for the everyday person. That's that's kind of the feeling that I get when I see their marketing and when I look at their website. And for Bolt, when I go onto Bolt, it feels like it's more technical in nature, more developer-oriented. Um even though, like, and as of right now, from what I know, they're trying to move in an enterprise direction. And so you'll see over time their marketing and probably their website change to like really sort of um, you know, I think that they want like product managers and you know, teams or what have you to take them seriously as a vibe coding tool. And so they'll be shifting their brand in that direction to really sort of capture that audience, right? Um, but and then from the technical standpoint, they're very similar. I think they're very, very similar. Um, it's very like minor sort of technical uh differences. Um so that's the tough part. This is the tough part though, right? Because it's like, well, now it's kind of just based off of brand and maybe a few technical components. There's a few, but I don't think there's too many, in my opinion. That's like very, very different from both from Lovable and Bolt from a technical standpoint. Um as I was ending my time there, they were like getting into focusing more on, you know, having specific agents that would have, you know, less errors, um, like cloud code was something that was integrated into Bolt's agent, right? And so kind of tackling a lot of the problems that are seen in the vibe coding space around, yeah, error loops or what have you, and kind of just being able to create like well what the vibe coding space calls like, you know, like toys, as in like these are like little landing pages that like you can use for fun. But like if you're trying to actually scale and build a product from an enterprise perspective, you can't really use these tools. And so Bolt was trying to move in a direction where it's like this is how we're gonna differentiate ourselves, is that this isn't just a uh a product where you can, you know, build a toy, but you can build a business with our platform, right? Enterprise solutions. Exactly, exactly. So that's how they're trying to differentiate now. It's smart, got it and it is smart, it is also where all the money is for them, right?

SPEAKER_00 50:53

It's like an enterprise, and you know, the one-to-one stuff, sure, it adds up, but you get, I mean, I'll take a business enterprise over the one-to-minute individual any day. So yeah, that's just how it goes. Cool.

SPEAKER_04 51:05

So, anywho, that was my my long rant there. But um, and so making sure that like the messaging on, you know, for both lovable and bolt translates to that specific end customer in mind. And then the aesthetics or the visual identity should also kind of correlate to that as well. Um, so anyway, um got it. Next question. What do we think is broken about how AI marketing is being taught or discussed today that we think can like help like will help fill that gap?

Naming Strategy And AI In The Title

SPEAKER_00 51:33

I don't think there's enough edu, like it goes back to education for me, right? It's like I just don't think there's enough resources out there that are um beginner friendly, right? Like you need to have some foundation and understanding of coding and building and even marketing to some degree for a lot of the videos I watch, right? On YouTube or other podcasts or other websites you go to, right? If you don't have that, you're so far behind at this point in the game that it's like I don't know where you go to start learning those things, right? And I think that that's what we're going to be covering, right? We're your entry point into the space, right? We'll introduce you to it, we'll tell you through it based on our experience, right? We've experienced it ourselves. So I think for me, what's broken is there's not a ton of resources out there for people who want to start, or even enough resources out there or messaging out there to start intriguing people on how you leverage this to do what we do or what other builders do, right? And the potential and capabilities you have with it. So I think you don't see that nearly as much. You just have a lot of people leveraging it for, well, I know it, I'll teach you what I know at a very high level. And if you want some of these entry points, again, it's either a course you have to pay for or something else that you have to kind of teach yourself. And some people just don't have the wherewithal or knowledge to even know where to start, right? And I think that's what we're gonna help address.

SPEAKER_01 52:56

I think uh um there's there's good like videos on on YouTube. Like I I learned I learned basically like everything on YouTube. I I couldn't function without the internet. Um, I learned how to code from the youth from YouTube, I learned SEO, well from doing it, of course, and YouTube. And um look at there's some good resources out there, but yeah, I think what Connor was saying is like, okay, I'm getting into yeah, I'm attracted to vibe coding because it's a lower barrier to entry. But where's that congruency with like how do I do an SEO campaign? How do I do a content calendar? How do I do keyword research? How do I for for this niche? How do we do that? And I I didn't see a lot out there. So congruency. Um fancy, fancy.

SPEAKER_04 53:44

And the reason why I asked this question actually is because to me, this is a very problems versus solution-oriented type of question. I think great marketers create content around what the problem is and what the solution is. And believe it or not, this is a very hard exercise. Great build, you're right. Thank you. Great builders do that, absolutely. So, and it's actually it sounds easy, but it's not, um, in terms of like condensing that messaging and even pinpointing that one pain point or that one problem that real that people are really gonna resonate with and be like, oh, like they're providing a real solution to this problem that I have, right? Um, and so to me, it's like, how can we, you know, do any marketing or content around that, right? Like around noticing that there's a lack of education or resources in the space. And to me, like for me personally, like I think AI marketing lacks humanity. And as someone who is a community-based marketer, and I I'm very big on human connection and I love tech. I've been, I mean, I've been using tech my whole life, right? Like, I think it's so important, especially with the rise of AI, to always have some amount of that humanness or humanity type component to what we do. And so to me, none of that, I don't see that on on anywhere. And and I agree with the both of you, there is a lack of resourcing and education, yes, but also and I'm seeing a lack of humanity in AI-based marketing today. And so I really want to kind of be able to outline or shed light as to like how you can actually make that happen and why it's important, right?

SPEAKER_01 55:18

I also think, you know, I I've said this before that between our expertise here on this call, you're not gonna get this somewhere else. For your as a builder, as a as a founder in the app space, excuse me. Uh I don't think you'll get it somewhere else. So um that's that's kind of my my thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_04 55:36

So very cool.

SPEAKER_01 55:38

I don't know, good stuff though. Um Okay.

SPEAKER_04 55:41

Uh next, next, next. Okay, we're gonna kind of get into um I mean, and usually I'd be taking notes, but like we're we're talking about this outside that stuff out loud, so I will combine all this later and create a really wonderful little brand guide for us to kind of start working with. But um, next question, and this seems obvious, but it's important, right? Like, who are we really talking to here? Who and I know it's it's and I will say we have quite a few personas, and a lot of brands I work with have quite a few, but I think the best brand marketing or best marketing in general tries to focus it on in on a few versus all of them. So I think for us, it's like who are we really talking to and who do we want to prioritize, right? And in that list.

SPEAKER_01 56:23

I'm thinking vibe coders and builders, entrepreneurs.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

Yeah, I'd say I mean you have it listed right here too, Mallory, which I think is it's like it's indie builders though, too. I I think really, right? Like those beginner, beginner to intermediate builders um that lack the marketing knowledge, right? I think that would that's like our audience in a nutshell right there. You know, I don't know if you expand beyond that to start, but it's like, would you put a couple of different audiences in there, or would you say, hey, this is our core one and this is who we want to focus on, and that's it.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

Yeah, like I at what point, Mallory, do you you know, you what I've learned, like you target narrow and you spread wide. At what point do you do that with the brand as well?

SPEAKER_04 57:03

That's a great question. That's a great, great, great question, actually. Um I think it's you expand when you get to a point where your brand is no longer resonating with the new audiences that you're trying to go after. Back to the Discord example really quickly. Um, when you know, uh what had happened was that a lot of folks were not using Discord, like their friends would be like, Hey, we're on Discord, like come join us. They're like, ah, isn't that a platform for gamers? Like, I'm not a gamer, so why would I use it? And so it became it became a huge sort of point. And people were like, Well, my perception of this product is that it's for gamers and I'm not a gamer. But the reality is that anybody could use it, you didn't have to be a gamer. And so, how do we then update our brand so that in our messaging so that it resonates with that new target that we're trying to go after, right? So that would be a great time. Or if you decide you you got to go in a brand new direction because you have these data points where you're like, we can't sell to this audience, this is not the right persona, right? Based off of whatever data you have, that could be another point in which you decide to change the brand. But I think the the most common use case would be like, okay, we're expanding into all of these new audiences. Our brand clearly doesn't resonate with them. And so we're gonna have to update it.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

Got it, got it. Yeah, it makes sense. Got it.

SPEAKER_04 58:22

Okay, so but it what what I'm hearing is like we believe we are really sort of talking to um entrepreneurs, early builders, etc.

SPEAKER_01 58:33

Yep, yes.

SPEAKER_04 58:34

Cool. And and I would say that's what we should focus on, right? Like, why would we try and target all of these like other sort of audiences right now? I mean, if they're interested and they come through, like that's awesome, right? But this is a great starting point for us considering that we're trying to grow this podcast and get it out there, right? So um, and then we kind of talked about this, like what transform what like transformation are we promising them? I think we're like promising that we can provide the resources and resources and education to really help them scale um their business or their product. Uh, whether that is SEO marketing, whether that's paid marketing, whether it's brand, whether it's all of them, right? Just depending upon because the the other thing too, right, is like, well, what channel do I start on first? Where do I start with marketing? And I think that really depends on a lot of different things. There's no one right answer to that. Um really, really depends on who you're building for, what you're building, all of those things.

SPEAKER_01 59:29

Interesting. Okay. I I've heard X. So I I mean that's the first thing that pops in my head. I mean, for what, the first platform to be on? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. For the like I think it's very much on the space.

SPEAKER_00 59:39

I mean, yeah, you'd say X coming from a performance marketing standpoint. It's like, yeah, sure, X is great, but how do you know what, like, are you just saying a platform to be on, Charlie, in terms of putting yourself out there? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:50

Like for the let's say for campaign pilots, like where did like where does that go first? Does that go on X first? Is that like where do marketers think out? X do they go on? And I think the thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

Is two, the transformation of promises, yeah, like, but we're gonna show you the steps in order to get there, right? Because yeah, going on X is great and announcing your new build and deployment is awesome, but how is that measurable besides what X tells you?

Competitors And Creative Peers

SPEAKER_04 1:00:14

Well, and what if it's like not the right? Because like, look, I think that there's this pressure in the in the startup scene and right now to be to like build your founder personality and brand. And I'm not saying that's wrong. Okay. I'm not saying that's wrong or that's bad, right? And so, like, usually for early stage startups, going on X and building that personality and just like putting your product out there is definitely like a part of the playbook. But look, what if you're building in health tech? They're not like that audience is probably not on fucking X, to be honest with you. Like if you're going after, I don't know, I'm just making something up, but like if you're going after, you know, um well you could we could I just feel like it just depends. Like it just depends on like who you're going after. I mean, but in my in my experience, like Discord it it it blew up on X. It was a very important channel for us. When I was at Bolt, blew up on X was a very important channel for us. Those are tech consumer facing sort of products. I think Charlie's like advice is spot on. Like X is a great channel to start with, but goes back to like who are you targeting? What are you trying to do? Like, if you're in a completely different industry where it's not really, they're not people are not, or your audience isn't on X, it might be a waste of your time. Okay. Um, what adjectives describe the vibe we want to create? Like, I put examples here: bold, fun, honest, practical. I think like a lot of the advice that the the both of you have given in recent episodes and past episodes have been very practical, um, experimental. Like, what are those adjectives?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:46

I think your last three, to me, like honest and practical, are really the two that nail it, right? It's like it's everything we go through is practical. We try and walk through it as best we can, and it's honest, right? About our experience and how we've done it. And just because we've done it doesn't always necessarily mean it's you know how you should do it, you know, to a T, but I I think that's that's what we want to create, right? Is that honesty and that practical, you know, practicality to it. Um I'd say those two resonate.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:15

I like that you put uh fun in there, like not boring. Um I I I like edutainment on YouTube. I I think it's great. I think like there's some very, very good um uh personalities in this space that have done some really, really cool things, but there's also some that I I just can't listen to. So um and they've done some amazing things. And I I I just didn't I didn't I personally didn't want to go in that direction. I told Connor when he first hopped on, I was like, dude, like point my language here, but Connor, don't be shy to say fuck or Mallory.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:50

I I know you're I know I swear a lot.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:53

So for for those of you who are listening to the case, Mallory, you've been like you've been great.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

I swear a lot, and I'm trying to tone it back because it's you know, uh yeah, the a few here and there is fine, but you know, I'm trying not to like there's a there is one podcast listened to and they curse like every other sentence and it drives me absolutely insane.

Visual Direction And Mood Boards

SPEAKER_04 1:03:11

Yeah, that I don't want to do because then it's like uh I want to be able to talk through things without like dropping an F bomb everywhere, but like I I do like to swear and I will do it once in a while. I think it's okay. But um, yeah, and like these these this question's important because this doesn't only come through in, you know, as we start kind of figuring out like how do we want the visual identity to look like? Do we want it to feel honest and practical? Do we want it to have a little twist of fun? But this actually comes through in the messaging, like in the brand personality voice and tone that we create too is like I essentially kind of outline like the sort of core traits of what our personality would look like, and then examples of how that would come to be. So um for an example, when I worked at Discord, sorry, I keep bringing up Discord, I actually did this at Bolt too, so both places. Uh, but I would work with a team to create a uh an explicit sort of outline of how our messaging translates into personality and what that tone should sound like and when to use the tone. Like how do you talk to customers during a frustrating experience or during a one that is actually really exciting, right? And joyous. And then what does that sound like? How do we, when we're transparent with users about updates or you know, maybe uh something happened something wrong happened and we need to take accountability, how does that how do we show up in those sorts of ways, right? So, um and what does the tone sound like? And so if we are like we're honest and practical and maybe a little bit of fun, that is like what's going to show up and not of course in our personalities on the pod, but then on our marketing channels and the messaging that we put out as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:51

Consistency throughout. Congruency.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:54

Congruency.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:55

Sorry, I'm gonna use congruency like my word of the day.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

Bam, you heard it here first.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:59

Congruency.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:00

Love it, cool, cool, awesome stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:02

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:02

Yeah, and then I I do not want this podcast to be this sounds selfish. I do not want this to be boring.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:10

No, I don't want it to be boring either. I'm I'm literally like as I start my marketing agency, like the stuff that I'm like pulling together, I'm like, I really only want to do marketing that is playful, joyous, sometimes a little chaotic, maybe sometimes a little unhinged, right? Like, but if you're gonna come to me to do the most like I don't know, serious marketing or something, I don't I'm not your gal, right? And that's okay. That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:36

But um, so that's you sticking to you though, too, and like letting your personality come out in the work that you provide for others, which is again, that's we just spoke about it. That's what makes it stand out more. Because sure, you could you could front and say, Yeah, I can do it, sure, no problem. But are you really gonna put your all into it? Are you gonna put you know a lot of time and energy? It's like maybe not if you're not really feeling it, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:59

It's like that's that's why I left Bolt because they were moving in an enterprise direction, and I was like, Could I do it? Yes, do I want to do it? No, because I'm a it's not my thing, right? And like that's just the truth, and there's nothing wrong with that. Um, it would have been great to learn, but it's just not it's not what I want to do, right? So um, yeah, yeah, but there's someone out there who's gonna own that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:21

So keep this rolling.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:23

How do we want listeners to feel? I think empowerment, I've heard the word empowerment, inspired, like informed.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:31

What do you gotta say, Charlie? Uh you want them to feel congruent?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:37

No, please don't say that. That's not a feeling. That's not a feeling. Maybe it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:42

I feel okay. I think that they should come here and they should with the oh, like like if I'm a builder, I should go to working name AI Code Central, and I should learn how to do email marketing. So they they should feel like this is the one-stop shop to to learn how to do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:59

That's not a feeling, though. That's not a feeling.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:01

Uh okay. Sorry, I know.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:03

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:05

It's like I know I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:08

But that's not the feeling. You know, I know. This is Tara's like, I don't get this stuff. What does this mean? Why are you asking me about feeling?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:16

You're making his making his brain hurt.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:19

I know, I can see it in real life. He's like the Google Ads API makes me feel like shit. But not anymore. We're approved. Not anymore.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:30

Almost done there, man. You're almost done. All right, gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:32

Okay, so how do you want our listeners to feel? Let's make it feel. Um feel uh informed. Like they they should come here and and they should uh get what they want.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:43

I feel like they should uh like anybody who's listening, right, and is gracing us with the time their time to listen should feel informed, but also walk away feeling like they they have something else in their skill set or utility belt to maybe start using, right? And that's that's what I'd really like them to feel.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:02

And I think that is empowerment, right? Like we're giving them the knowledge and the information to feel, yeah, empowered to be like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make this change and make this happen with my product because I learned it on the podcast, right? Um, cool. All right, this is a hard one. We're going down a name ideation. Okay. Um I like I said, I I I don't have a lot of names here that I've started playing with. This is what I'm gonna cook on this week after we actually um do this episode, but um I so naming is so tough. Okay. This, like I said, there's so many ways to kind of get started on this. There's no one right way to do this. It's a very kind of difficult uh activity to do. Um where I like to start is kind of, you know, I talked a little bit about name generators, you know, taking a doc like this and feeding into Chat GPT to help you come up with like, you know, specific adjectives or parts of words that you think could be really interesting to you. Um so that's a great place to start. And then yeah, that's that's usually where I start. No, yeah. I mean, I think this yeah. And so I kind of just was like, I pulled together some categories of like, you know, buckets are like are how I can bucket some of the names, which like I made playful first, which I would not after this discussion, I would not make that first, of course. Um, something more community driven or aspirational. I know that we're all marketers, so I was like, how do we take components of marketing and fit that into like the name? And I don't know yet because I need to brainstorm. And then the one other thing I wanted to say, and this like, and this I think is interesting for those that are listening, is the name AI is currently within our podcast name. I challenged Connor and Charlie uh a few weeks back saying, like, you know, I don't know if we need it. We may, we may not. I'm not convinced, to be honest with you. And that is a discussion happening everywhere where it's like, do we use AI in our name? Do we use it in the tagline? Do we want people to know it's this is, you know, about AI? Um, and I have those discussions with founders, um, really depending upon who they're targeting, et cetera, et cetera. Now, we're targeting founders and builders in the space, right? So perhaps for us it makes sense for us to want to do. But if we decide we want to scale over time, do we think that having AI in our name is going to still be relevant? Um, is a question, I think, for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:23

Do you think that's a great question too, Mallory? Because do you look at that as something that any you know founder should consider, not just us, but yeah, maybe we don't want AI in it because we five years from now, right? Um got it.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:39

That's everywhere. Because it's like everywhere. Doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:42

Expand to something larger than just AI, right? It's like we do have a marketing arm and a strong one at that based on all of our skill sets. Like, do you know, should it be something more generic that just doesn't close it off to only focusing on that specific subset of users or people, right? Where you have that opportunity to kind of expand without doing the name change again.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:03

I would ask Mallory, uh, I was gonna ask you a challenging question of why wouldn't we have it in that?

Action Plan And Closing

SPEAKER_04 1:11:08

But I think uh well, it's a great question. I think that for us it's a bit different because we are targeting folks within the space that are building in this space. So I think it could actually be useful for us to potentially use it within the name. Now, if you're building a product that's very uh consumer oriented and it's focused on AI, you may not want to use it or may not need to use it. Um, I think that that word is uh to some people scary. To some consumers out there, I'm outside of our bubble. Think outside of our bubble, okay? Uh that yes, yes. As someone who like is obsessed with consumer trends and is always obsessed with like understanding where the consumer mindset is, especially around AI, the way we think about it and talk about it is very different from outside of our bubbles and how people think about it because there is there is some fear-mongering around it happening. People have uh young people actually have a lot of concerns around, you know, like the ethical sort of morality around the data setters that are being built and the sustainability and how that's impacting our environment. You know, a lot of other folks are afraid that it could take their jobs, right? So, like I and I say these things because if you're building something that's really sort of over time going to scale to the everyday consumer, you may not even need AI in the name. It's just a part of the product and it doesn't, they don't need they don't need to know that. How is it important? Why does it matter to them, right? Like, yeah, that's just like my random thought there. Yeah, no, no, no. That has nothing to do with this. Like, I feel like because we know where we're targeting and where we're going, like, maybe it does make sense for us to have it in the name. So I could go either way, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:51

No, I I didn't use Claude code for the longest time just because it had the name code in it. And I didn't feel like having to learn uh I can figure it out, but like I didn't feel like learning terminal.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:03

I think that's this is the name thing is so important to you that it's like it's gotta be more of just throw some things out there, start dialing it, like dialing it into a few, and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:13

Can we just do a postmalo didn't just went to a name generator and just just found something?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:19

Is that what he did? I love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:21

Yeah, that sounds like postmalo. Yeah, that's hilarious. But no, I I totally get because again, uh, this name came from uh exact match domain and um put in that keyword. I saw that trend. I was like, uh Connor, we're doing this. Check this out.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:37

Yeah, I mean that's again from the SEO perspective, it looks great, but I think it, you know, Mallory's point is is if it expands over time, does it really address the entire audience?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:47

Which I think is so um Mallory, look, if if the name is trash, uh then let's change it.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:54

I I mean, I I it sounds like we're all in agreement that we're down to change it. It's more so like what are we going to do? What do we change to like you? And then we need to be, I mean, obviously aligned on that. It's just um, and so I think I'm trying to think of like fun ways to do this also with the team. Like right now, I'm opening up a name generator, um, and I just typed in specific keywords, and now it's just like it's basically smashing all of these words together. Um, and so like how do you maybe take some of these, screenshot them, and put them on like a Figma jamboard or some sort of whiteboard and start actually like jotting down specific words or keywords that you think are interesting, or even just screenshots of like name generators, like just just as a starting point, you know? Um, and I'm not saying this is great, but like this is literally where I'm starting. Namelicks.com helped me actually. I think I'm like, did I I think did it help me when I named my startup whatever? I think it did. Um it was just one of those words, and then I looked it up and I'm like, wait, this has to be a trademarked word, and then it wasn't. I'm like, let's do it. It's nonchalant, it's casual, it's understandable to consumers, like it all this stuff, right? So um, yeah, anywho. Any do you guys have any ideas off the top of your head?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:07

I mean, uh I I did a quick, you know, chat, you know, GBT run too, and it's it's kind of some of the same, like, you know, builder house, I think was even one of them. Like, you know, the AI build house, let's see, signal path, you know, and it's okay, but none of them, I'm not looking at anything, and it's not speaking to me in terms of again what we're offering and what we're putting out there is in the title. And I think that needs to, it's probably gonna be an aha moment for me where I see it. I'm like, yep, like these are the these are the great ones. Now let's play around with them a little bit more.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:40

So this is interesting. I kind of just quickly typed in marketing podcasts, and like these are just some of the names of the podcasts that are out there. And I feel like this is also a great starting point for us, is like, okay, look at all of these different marketing podcasts. Some of them use the word marketing in them, right? Some of them are very simple. Like, how I built this is such a great name. Um, very familiar with that podcast. This one's just the CMO podcast, right? They probably focus on like featuring, you know, CMOs. I don't know that to be true, but that would be my guess based off of the name that I see here. Um, duct tape marketing, marketing over coffee. This one's a social media marketing podcast, very clear on what they would provide. Marketing school, that's really interesting. Um, so it's I think it's like we need to find a way to combine the word builder and marketing. Like there's something there's something in the world where I think we can try and I uh yeah, I don't know what you guys think about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:36

I'm just no, I I do too. I think builder, it needs to have marketing in it, I think at this point, it's in some capacity, right? Now it doesn't have to be fully spelt out, however, it gets figured out, but it has to be in there. I mean, based on again, the offering, what we talk about, okay, who we are. I mean, we're marketers, right? We're marketers first, and you know, we like to leverage that for the purposes of AI and AI builds.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:03

What about uh you know, because we we've talked offline about uh the the podcast being at the the hub of everything, and the spokes would be maybe like more educational content. There's different arms to this thing that we're building, AI Code Central. So is there something to keep that in mind as well? Or do we just go hard with this um podcast? Or do you do like two different arms then?

SPEAKER_04 1:17:32

You know what that's a great question. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:34

Once we introduce that's probably another layer, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:38

You just said you don't know?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:40

Mallory. No, no, I sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:42

You know, like let's say let's say you know we introduce like educational products, for example.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:49

Or you know, we we get into you know, we which we will, uh Angel Investing, the three of us, and you know how do we incorporate that into the name? That's where Central came in. You know, that that's what I was thinking. So um, I was thinking launchpad just now, but I don't think that incorporates those two other arms I just mentioned.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:08

So uh not a bad name though. It's not a bad name.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:11

This is gonna I am. Yeah, this is pretty um I I I think I spent like two days, not like straight like I normally do, but I spent like two days on that.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:21

I I'm sure and naming is not an easy thing. I don't have I don't even have like a perfect process for it because it's very subjective. It's one it's just one of those things that's different for everyone. Um you can hire a whole naming agency uh if you want to. Lexicon is a wonderful naming agency. I'm just I'm I don't think it is it's their name is called Lexicon. Oh, that's cool. That's awesome. David Plasnick is the uh uh founder, he's been the founder for 14 years. He's come up with names like Fabriz, like I mean, like a lot of big car companies that you're familiar with. Blackberry, like he is synonymous with creating some of the biggest sort of brand names that we're all familiar with. Um he would actually be, oh my gosh, he would be a good person for the pod in the future. Hopefully, he would be excellent for the pod.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:10

Did he do um benchmark? Benchmark Capital.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:13

He might have done benchmark. He also did Windsurf recently um as well. So but so they they so by the way, this is an agency that just focuses on coming up with your name. They do not do anything else other than helping you find a name. And it is a six-week process that includes, you know, tapping into linguists all around the world to make sure that the name that they're working on is not like offensive in Japan or right, especially if you're building a global business, and then get this. They have a whole team of people that make up random words, they're not even real. They're not even real. It's a whole process. That's cool. It is badass, right? But you sit there and you're like, well, what does that mean? What is that process? That sounds crazy, but like this is why I said naming is very uh it's difficult, it's subjective, and like they probably they make up words so that you can own the word, right? From an SEO perspective, you can dominate and you can own that word. Um, it's not being used everywhere else, you're not gonna have to compete, right, with like a bunch of other companies. So um, yeah, if if if you have uh if you're I wouldn't know, you have to be like Series B and above, like you've got to have some cash on hand, but like they're great to work with. They're wonderful I remember that. That's cool. So, anyways, okay. Um But Launchpad's not a bad name. I think it's more so like maybe it doesn't encapsulate, oh, and to go back to what you said, sorry, I'm jumping around, Charlie. Like we should choose a name that encapsulates like anything in the future that we plan to do that we feel very strong and that we're moving in that direction. So for example, like the advisory slash investing piece, right? Um is something that you know we've been talking about. So like how do we make sure that the name can can sort of um work with something like that too?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:04

I think offline uh we we all need to be on the same page with the offerings. Yes, and then we hammer this out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:12

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:12

Which I I think we already are, but just to be 100%.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:15

Um yeah, then then we can go with that.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:17

But yeah, I anyways, I gotta play with this. This is not a we're not gonna solve for this during this uh podcast episode, but more so wanna get the juices flowing. Um other small things like try and choose names that have like two to three syllables. Try and like if you can, yeah, so difficult to do, right? But like D A I central, like A A I Code Central. Like that's just it's too long, there's too many words. Like, so if we could try and condense, and we don't have to. This is not like a oh, we have to like have it be two, three syllables. No, we don't, but it would be great if we could because it just keeps it very simple and to the point.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:55

Um, so that's when I was um when I had my sales job, there were times where I would just I I would call in for another sales guy. This is gonna go somewhere. I would call for a prospect, or like if another sales guy had like a lead like warmed up and like I close him, I would call in. Uh I would change my name. And I would change my name to Jack Mako. And Jack Mako, he was a no BS, like an Ari Gold, and he would go in and he would his close rate was like 95%. Like he was hard, like he would do it. And I always thought that name Jack Mako sounded so good, like phonetically, Jack Jack Mako. Yeah, Jack Mako, like the CK at the end of the CCO, Jack Macko. And anytime a secretary secretary who's on the phone, I'd like to step back from the phone, Jack Mako. And every time she'd just put me through. And I think there there really is like something to it. It's also how you say it too, but um I think phonetically that sounded that sounded really good to me. And I remember prompting both Claude and GPT, like how like I gave the example, Jack Macko. How do we get this name to sound like that? How how does that work? And I did that with campaign pilots. Um I I think that has too many syllables, but I I think there there really is something to a name. And I I've read studies too of like uh K, like CK, like that name in a brand, like a consumer will remember, and in the pharmaceutical space, uh T's, T and CK, like will interest will like resonate with with a consumer. So um I don't know. There's a way we can do that with with the name, with like a CK, or I don't know. That doesn't really work. I tried to do it with AI code central, but I was so fo I was hyper focused on that keyword AI code, just because it was just okay, it was like and by the way, too.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:55

Like and no, that's interesting because like and if we find that that's also like we there's specific keywords that are valuable, like does it have to be in the name? Could it be like you know, a tag could it be a part of a tagline, or could it be like are there other ways from an SEO perspective for us to like lift those keywords without it being in the name itself, I guess is what I'm trying to ask?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:14

You can, but it it's more impactful if you do it in the name because the name will be on the domain. So it makes sense. Exact match domain name. Tony, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:25

Yeah, I mean, uh again, I'm kind of just open to to any kind of you know things we're gonna throw out there. I I just think this process for the name ideation is going to take much longer than just discussing it here, right? We gotta throw some things on the wall, see what sticks in all of us, and then yeah, like I was about to ask Mallory, like I could only imagine this process like in real time has to take weeks for people to kind of go through, right? And we're trying to go through it. Obviously, step like we want everyone to see the steps to it, but we're trying to hammer it out now when it's just you know, take our time and let's make sure that we're really dialing it into the name that we want.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:02

Well, look, if if there's if if there's a badass name that doesn't include AI code, I mean let's do it. Let's let's roll with it. Let's let's cook.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:11

I'm gonna cook. So I'm gonna spend some time. I know, I you know, you guys gotta let me cook a little bit. I'm gonna come up with some stuff and then I'm I just want you guys to react to it. And I don't care if you think it's bad or it could be horrendous, but at least it'll be like, okay, well, we're not moving in this direction. And that to me is enough to like let that that's that's like enough feedback for us to just refine and and get to the place where we're like this is sick. Um, but uh, and I think I said this earlier, but just as a reminder too, like if you are haven't found product market fit yet, if you are in the earliest of stages, this should not take up all of your time. Do not spend all of your time coming up with the company name, focus on the product, focus on who you're building for, right? Like keep the messaging and positioning really simple there, right? But like, and maybe that's like a whole nother episode too is like how do you approach marketing like as like at the earliest of the earliest stages? Okay. Um, right. Like, I think that could be a great episode for us to do. But um, yeah, don't don't get hyper obsessive over it. Don't don't take weeks, right? Like, try and find something that works. Um, because it's just you're trying to find PMF, you're trying to even understand who you're targeting, and so it's just not worth your time. Um what's the saying, Mallie?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:28

What's the saying? First time founder is focused on product, second time founder is focused on distribution. Isn't that a thing? I thought that was maybe I saw it on you making something up, Charlie. What's that?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:42

You making something up? No. I saw it on Google.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:46

No, maybe it is. I saw it on the Pinterest board on this morning.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:50

Anyhow, okay, so we're gonna come back to this, but that is just, you know, um, I think what we uh took away from this is at least we came we came up with a few words that we think could be interesting to kind of play with and or start with. Um, and that's enough for it for me to at least kind of do some brainstorming. Cool. And then we'll come back and and we'll give we'll keep you guys updated. And of course, when we change the name, you're gonna know.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:14

So you're gonna know anyway.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:16

We're gonna know. Okay. All right, next section. Um, and we can run through this pretty quickly because I think we've talked about a lot of this already. Uh, but the biggest question from this section, and we're kind of talking a little bit about positioning now, right? Is like, who do we see as our closest competitors or creative peers? And maybe we don't have to say they're competitors, right? But like, who are our closest creative peers um and how will we be different? I think is really important. And so these are some of our peers that we've already been kind of taking a look at. Although I'm sure there are plenty of podcasts too on LinkedIn that are AI oriented that are uh, you know, this is just a quick Google search, but do we know any off of the top of our head, um, Connor, Charlie, that we're aware of that we should consider?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:00

Go ahead, Charlie. Okay, I mean the first one that pops in my head. I I've heard he's an awesome guy, too. I've heard he's a super cool guy, super good dude, is uh Greg Eisenberg. Yep, that's my number one, too. I think first one so good on him for popping in both of our heads when you ask a question like that.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:15

Yeah, uh Greg's the go.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:17

Yeah, you know Greg. Yeah, I I've heard he's a great dude.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:20

He is a he is a great dude. He is uh that's good. He's just as down to earth as uh the the way you see him on his YouTube videos. Like that's cool. Um he is yeah, he's a great dude.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:31

So and obviously not a competitor, Greg. We very much enjoy your content, it's super engaging. That's what I think that's what we kind of aspire to get to, right? And it's just a different angle in regards to who will who will be serving as opposed to who Greg serves.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:45

Yeah, I I definitely get uh ideas from I I I've watched well not all of his videos, I watched a a lot of his videos and I got ideas from it. And I mean, I th I I mean he has a marketing background, doesn't he? And uh yeah, yeah, um hundred percent. I I think um I think what he's doing is great, and yeah, I I get ideas from him.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:03

That's helpful. I know there's also channels like the starter story, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:09

Okay, Pat Walls, yeah, that that dude knows his his stuff. Uh he's doing cool things. I I try to get him on here. I think my meditation got lost. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:18

That's okay. We're man, it's okay. We're manifesting. We're gonna we're gonna get there. Okay. Yeah. Um, but okay. So those two and with those two in mind, like it's great because then I can kind of take a look, and then it's like we're not, it's more so like how do we differentiate, how do we position ourselves, and how do we take inspo too? So it's like maybe Greg um does a segment that we think is really interesting, and maybe we can flip it on its head and we can do something that and make it our own, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:43

But I think they're they're great examples too. Pardon me, Mallory, that um Greg is a marketer and Pat is a developer by trade. So they're they're both on the on the two sides of the app side.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:54

Okay, cool. Um, that's interesting actually, as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:58

So and you can see it come out in their content.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm trying to think if there's anyone else. Those two definitely stand out to me. I would agree.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:05

There's others now, but I I don't I don't really pay much attention to the other ones.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:09

Okay. Okay. Maybe I'll do a little bit of digging, but I feel like that's a great place to start. Yeah. So and then, okay, cool. I so like the next question here, and this is an exercise, and we don't have to do this, but like this is great for uh the listeners to to sort of do is write a draft positioning line. Um and then this is like write a line, right? One sentence on it's like a tagline on how you would position yourself. Like, what do you do? Who are you for? And uh when I was at Bolt, uh Fiona, who is the wonderful designer that I worked with and myself, we did this all hands activity where we vibe coded a uh a way to sort of if you have you guys played jackbox games before? Yes, I love jackbox games, they're awesome. So we we yes, uh so we kind of vibe coded uh a small version of that where for the branding exercise we were doing, we asked the whole company during all hands, like, how do you we asked them like three or four brand questions on like, how do you describe Bolt to a friend? Um, you know, and and other sort of related questions, write it, write it, write a tagline. We asked everyone in the company to write a tagline. And we did it really in a fun way where we used Bolt to sort of like as people were typing in, you could start seeing everyone's responses in real time. But we used that copy to kind of think about, you know, how we're gonna actually position ourselves outside of like, you know, understanding the competitor landscape and understanding who we're targeting, right? But like having employees or folks on the team get involved in like writing, even if they're not writers, right? It doesn't matter. Like we're just trying to figure out what that elevator pitch is gonna be, what that tagline is gonna be, right? Um, so this is a really fun exercise to do. Um, not like I said, we have to do it today, but I will ask you guys to do this as like homework.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:00

I think I need to, yeah, that's definitely home. Oh I got homework.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:04

Yeah, homework. Why didn't we bring Mallory? She's just giving us more work to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:09

Pinterest board homework today is just bullies us into doing more work.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:15

I don't call it bullying, I should it's it's just making sure that that things are moving along in the way they should.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:22

I like it. That's the right way to say it, Connor. Nice job. Okay. All right, last section, and we're gonna wrap this up, and then I'll kind of talk uh just very briefly on how this turns into deliverables. Um, but the last sort of uh section in this workshop focuses on the visual direction. And so what I really love to do is a few things. One, I love to kind of get a few inspo references, right? So, like um, what brands or aesthetics do we admire? Um, are there specific like typographies or layouts or fonts or colors that like we think kind of encapsulate what everything that we just talked about, right? Um, and so what I like to do is essentially kind of start creating a Pinterest mood board. This is supposed to be a very fun and creative sort of activity where you just start typing in like, here, I'll show you my search. Okay, dark, darker marketing aesthetic with a pop of color, right? So, like I found an image like that or an image like this, because we talked about at the beginning of of of this podcast episode on how we want to kind of keep that that that like darker aesthetic, but we just want to give it some boldness and pop of color, a little, a little bit of fun. And so I like to do this activity, just kind of get a sense of where where is everyone at? Where like what does Connor think the aesthetic should be? What does Charlie think the visual sort of direction should should look like? And after this activity, kind of taking a step back and seeing the similarities and themes between the what the three of us have pulled, and so that we can move in a direction where we're like, actually, we really like this neon color. We're gonna add this neon color to our color palette and mix it up with like the darker colors that we have. Um, and and so yeah, uh, we kind of started doing this. I gave them homework yesterday. It was great.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:10

I had so much fun with that, Mallory. It was awesome to just look at things that I found visually like awesome and pleasing. Yeah, there's some cool stuff on Pinterest. I guess too, like, really out of when you're doing this exercise, have you ever come across where you just like you have a few people and they just pick totally different things? And you're like, well, I there is no meat in the middle here. I don't really know where to go with it, or do you typically find something that'll help that meat in the middle?

SPEAKER_04 1:34:35

I think creatively you can always find something. I mean, look, and then there's the conversation of like, well, these like aesthetics are so completely different, like where, like, how like and why, and then how can we bridge the gap?

SPEAKER_03 1:34:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:49

Um, but I've never like I don't know, I don't think I've ever seen mood boards that are just like super far off. Because I I really think with creativity, there's always a way to like find a theme and and like put some sort of through line through all of it, you know? Um but okay, so Charlie's picks. We've got we've got um we've got some red here, which is really interesting. So I'm seeing that we like the color red. Um don't mind my crazy Pinterest shenanigans. Um is this? Okay. Um we talked a little bit about this yesterday too, which like the darker colors, and it's got this pop of orange, which like we think is really interesting. And then what else? What else do we got here? Okay, okay, we got this really cool image that um is okay, for some reason it's not loading, but it's got a mic, it's got some text, it's got some darker colors, but just like a hint of blue or green color here, which I think is nice, like a nice little contrast too. Um hard to see there for some reason.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:54

And look, I've I've been staring at this for well, not at the Pinterest, in the sense of AI Code Central for the past three months. That that one, the second one on the top to the right, that one. I thought that was that was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:09

This is cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:10

Like doing that for guests. I thought that was really cool.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:14

Ooh, like this, even this image right next to it kind of reminds me of that. But this like this is interesting because it gives the founder this sort of bold aesthetic. I think that's really interesting, but then also quotes them and has that pop of color, so it draws the eye, it gives attention to that. Because that's my problem with like anything that's just purely black or white. My eyes just kind of glaze over because there's nothing really capturing my attention. So that's what I really like about this image is that I see this, this bold black, this this woman's face, then I see this, this just like red just screaming at me. That and that, and it doesn't make me feel bad, not in a way where I'm like, right, but in a way where I'm like, you got my attention. And I think that's important because we need that's that's what we have to do as marketers, right? Like, if we're gonna promote this podcast, like we gotta find ways to capture people's attention. And to me, this image does this. So I actually really like this as a as an example a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:05

So uh what what I was saying before that is uh I've been staring at this thing for I don't know, three months straight now. So I like to hear y'all's uh opinions. You know, Connor, what you had mentioned this morning that you would went pretty deep on this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:21

I mean again, I you know I found something again that did add some pops of color. I know I didn't we don't have them up here to to go through, so I'll share the links afterwards, but it was definitely more pops of color. Um didn't use I really like what you guys both brought up, like the image you just showed with you know the person on it, which could be a guest moving forward or something along those lines. So I didn't find too much of that. A lot of my stuff was more illustrative in nature, um, especially around like fonts and things, right? Because that I think that to me helps bring out a little bit of life in the brand without it being so image heavy or like, hey, I'm gonna have an image of someone that's right in your face where the fonts can really do a lot of that work for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:01

I to bring out the it does nothing for us here. Like, look at the fonts do absolutely nothing for us here, I would say, right? Looking back at it's kind of hard to read, it's smaller, it doesn't stand out. So I would agree with you, like, especially if we don't go heavy on the color, like text and font is such a wonderful way to compensate for that. Um, and that's how I think we can improve on our thumbnails, right? Like, just yeah, it's it's it's to the point, it's simple, it's it's not bad, right? But like it's not capturing my attention, it's not capturing my eye. Yeah, um, it's too a little too small, I think, as well. I really like though how over time, like you guys are started playing with adding the founder thumbnail in. Like, that's great because I think that adds just like another level of like, okay, this is this is who it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:43

Just some color to it.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:44

It's just some color, even if they don't know who that person is, it just provides some amount of like humanness and a face. Um, so look, like I started this exercise, and this is the direction that I was going in. And then we kind of talked through it and I was like, you know what, this is this, this ain't it. And so I feel like what we have kind of at least agreed upon is like dark aesthetic, pop a color, what that pop of color may be, questionable. Neon, orange, red is what I'm seeing. And then like really sort of investing in like a few fonts that we think um are gonna like, you know, allow us to kind of be playful in how we pull together the thumbnails and any other assets that we use. And I think that's a great start. Like that's a great starting point, even if like we're like, oh yeah, this this what I pull together is so different, right? From like what what Charlie has pulled together here. Yeah. They are different.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:32

And there is some, you know, you if you look at it, I mean, I did most of this last night. It is, it's so heavy on the font and the illustration and illustrative font that I think that's it's kind of just in the back of my mind what I was thinking. There's some other things in here too, color palettes that I really gravitate towards, which again complements the darkness with some bright neon stuff. So we'll send that over and I think you'll find some some common ground between what I have, you have, and Charlie has. Cool.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:57

Um, and then I even like pulled things like Spotify branding because uh I that you know, they obviously focus so much on featuring artists, right? In our case, we're featuring builders and founders, and so how do we creatively um sort of you know build that or create that out in our in our designs? And so I was inspired by them too. And that's I think that's something to do, right? Like going back to the uh is like what are the the references and brands and aesthetics that you admire that you think are are great. Um, and that's a great, that's a also a good starting point. And Pinterest has all of them, so just type it in, type in like Headspace branding or um you know, Pinterest branding, and you'll find it. So um even past campaigns of ads and things like that you can find on Pinterest.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:41

So this is one of the best exercises, I think, too, to really dial into the branding aesthetic, right? It's just go create a board, just start looking through things, and again, then start trying to find the commonalities across all of it to really start building your own look and feel out.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:57

Exactly. And I think that's kind of what we captured here, which Connor, I I'm really curious to see your pens and or whatever board you created as like a follow-up.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:06

I don't want to send well, oh, can I just this is like really telling for a person, right? It's kind of like gills of curtain back on like what they like their their like creative preferences and and what what they think about this. And I think I can send this over right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:20

Hold on one second.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:21

Yeah, I saw that second one in the that one that you clicked on. I was like, that is that's badass.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:26

I don't know if you're able to. But anyway, you have it. I put it in our in our little chat.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:33

Ooh. Oh, I do see some illustration here. This is fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:39

Yo, yeah, so yeah, this is different.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:41

So this is this is different. This is like, I would say, a great example of like, you know, I we're playing with the fonts here, and we decided that that's what we want to do, and that's really interesting. But you're right, like there's this sort of illustrative vibe. Even like I'm getting like um, like this futuristic, uh, what the heck is the name of the aesthetic? Vaporwave. Sorry, vaporwave. Um, so this is giving kind of like vapor wave, which is really fun as well, but different. Like we don't have that aesthetic now. Um, but but like it kind of still has the darkness that we would want with the color, which is interesting. Um, but this, like right here, which I love because I love illustration, but is very different from kind of like the what we had start pulling together. So it's like this is the discussion, which is like, okay, are we do we want to do illustration? Do we have resourcing on hand to do illustrations? Right. Like, um, when do we use them? It's like we probably don't use them often. So what does that look like when we use them? Right. Um, but like what I really love about these two images, Connor. So for those that are listening, one of them is an image of a dude that just says fuck it. And then another one's of like a coffee cup with like a personality, and he's like, I'm a caffeine dealer. So um, and they're fun, right? And I think it provides this level of like, how do we infuse personality and boldness into what we're creating? Um, but also and like very different from what we were just kind of chatting through. So how do we either forego it and be like, we're not gonna go this direction, or are there ways to infuse that into what we're doing?

SPEAKER_02 1:43:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:16

Um, so yeah, that's the that's kind of the discussion we have if you're you're brainstorming with folks and you're kind of coming up with with different directions, right? Um and I like I said, also a resourcing thing. If you don't think you can kind of, you know, have that resourcing, it may not make sense to to do that. Um love to make dope stuff every day. I think that's I think that's like what I love about this is not the font per se, but I like the feeling that it gives, as in like that's what we want, this is what we want our listeners to do. We want them to make dope stuff every day and then market that out and and and scale it out to the world, right? Like, yeah, so to me, this isn't really like it's just like a feeling sort of thing. Um, if that makes any sense. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:58

No, absolutely does. Again, I think it's it's some of that stuff comes across, you know, that just evokes the emotion as opposed to you actually having to put a graphic design together for that to occur.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:10

Exactly. So uh this is a fun part of the process. I highly recommend you get creative on Pinterest and you can look up colors, fonts, typographies, campaigns, and all of that. If you're able to pull together a brief and you need a designer, for example, to um update your brand guide or your logo. Um, a lot of the times they'll have you go through an exercise like this anyway. So if you come prepped with the mood board and a direction to go down, like designers will designers day. They will love you. Yeah, they're gonna love you. They're gonna be like, wow, you're out of the game. Like you already have some ideas in mind, right? So um, yeah, definitely a fun activity to do and will be helpful for any designer that you decide to work with if you're if you're gonna go through this process.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:54

Yeah, this was awesome, Mallory.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:55

So, yes, thank you, everybody. Uh, in terms of like next steps for us, right? Is like we need to come up with a naming short list, right? Can we come up with the name of like at least 10 names and then from there drill down on you know the few that we are open to? And if not, like how can we change those to turn into a name that we're excited about, coming up with a tagline and sort of a positioning statement. Um, we already have done this, but like uh we did create a mood board. Now it's kind of like how do we, you know, move forward with that aesthetic? And then um eventually we'll update, you know, our our description on our YouTube channel and our website, et cetera. And um, I'll kind of probably create a mini roadmap on how we'll kind of figure out on how we update this across the board. And uh yeah, so thank you. This was a fun, creative process. And I hope it was helpful for for those of you that are listening and trying to figure out how the heck do I tackle this. Uh uh, how do I tackle brand or how do I start? I think that's the best way to put it.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:56

It's like how do I boy I I learned a whole lot from how brands make me feel and holy goodness gracious.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:03

It's it's an awesome, awesome walkthrough to just kind of begin that process. And again, I think that's where a lot of people get stuck is anyone can throw up a website, anyone can, you know, do any of that kind of stuff. But it's like if it doesn't evoke emotion, it doesn't, you know, correlate to what you're trying to sell or what your offer is, and it doesn't again kind of resonate with the end user. I mean, then what's the point, right? You just kind of you're putting it out there for the sake of putting it out there. So this was awesome, Mallory.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:29

Good stuff. Is there a place uh Mallory? Can we put this template like in our show notes or is there a place?

SPEAKER_04 1:46:35

Oh um, yeah, I I'm happy to. Let me take um, I will take what we have created here and I'll create a template for all of you to at least uh use as a starting point. So yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:48

All right. Okay, that does it episode 24, working title, EA Code Central Podcast. And uh we'll be back next week. We've got Ryan Carson on next week. So that'll be a good one. So peace.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:00

Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:01

Thanks, guys.