More Customers To Your App with Christian Peverelli | Episode #27

If your dashboards are loud but your next steps are fuzzy, this one’s for you. We open with a clear look at how Campaign Pilots turns GA4, Search Console, and Google Ads into plain-English insights you can act on today—no more stitching together reports or losing hours to manual analysis. Connect your sources once, ask for what you need, and schedule weekly briefs that help you make better calls in minutes, not days.

Then we welcome Christian Peverelli, founder of Outbond, for a hands-on walkthrough of sales intelligence that actually respects your domain reputation. He shows how to build hyper-targeted lists from live data, waterfall-verify emails and phones, and run deep research agents that extract ideal customer profiles and timely signals. The magic is in the personalization at sane volumes: smaller, smarter campaigns that convert at 10–15% positive reply rates instead of the spray-and-pray one percent the industry tolerates. We also explore non-sales use cases—customer discovery, partnerships, recruiting, and fundraising—that benefit from the same rigor.

We round out the conversation with the GTM stack that’s working now: trust-building content at the top, durable SEO that favors human-first structure, and retargeting that nudges intent without noise. Community takes center stage as the retention engine—reward super fans, invite contribution, and watch UGC lower your blended CAC. And for the tool-curious, we compare Claude and GPT workflows for coding, content, and validation, plus share a shortlist for our rebrand: Builders Growth Lab.

Listen to learn how to replace reporting clutter with clarity and swap cold blasts for outreach that feels handcrafted. If you found this useful, follow the show, share it with a builder friend, and leave a quick review so more people can discover it.

Transcript

Campaign Pilots: Problem And Promise

SPEAKER_04 0:10

What's up everybody? Uh Charlie here, AI Code Central Podcast. Working title, more to that later in the episode. The name will change. But I'm coming to you right now and want to talk to you about the app that we created. It's called Campaign Pilots. And what this does, this solves the problem of understanding the website analytics you're using as an app builder. So let's say that you vibe coded a CRM, for example. You got it live, you pushed it out, you've got it on Reddit, put it on X, product hunt, everything. You hit deploy on Bolt, Level, whatever your platform is, you wired up GA4, you've got Tag Manager in there, you've got it on verified domain with Search Console. What does that data actually mean? When you go to those screens, when you're looking at sessions or UTM tags for different campaigns in GA4, you're looking at bounce rates, acquisition channels, you know what I'm getting at. It's an overwhelming screen of data, a bunch of numbers on a screen, and that you have to make sense of this. What our app does, what campaign pilots does, is it makes sense of everything. So you log in, you connect your data sources, you connect to GA4, Search Console, and Google Ads if you're running Google Ads. Takes a couple minutes. Once you're connected in a chat, one chat per data source, you ask GA4, summarize the SEO in the past 30 days compared to the previous 30 days, and you get a summary. In that summary, you're told what the top pages are, because websites are web pages. Now Google ranks web pages, not websites. You get a summary of that data. You get what are the top 10 non-branded keywords? All of those questions are answered for you in a matter of seconds inside of this app. What it does is let's say you're not a data analyst or a marketing analyst. This is your marketing co-pilot. So you can take the data and you can ask the AI look, based on this historical data that you're seeing here, what are my best actions moving forward? And it will tell you. So everything is very simple to read. It's in a simple chat interface. You get scheduled analysis as well. So let's say you're an app builder and every Wednesday morning you review your Google Ads, you can have a set report sent to you. Let's say top non-branded keywords, your ROS summary, all of that is sent to you every Wednesday morning at 9 a.m. Mountain time, for example, so that you can make decisions based on that analysis. So it cuts down reporting from five hours to a matter of minutes. All of that is done for you. Plans start for free. So start two weeks free, see how it is. We would love your feedback on it. It's a free trial, no credit card required. So check out campaignpilots.ai. Once again, that's campaignpilots.ai. Thanks.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

Hello, hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of AI Code Central. What up, what up? This is episode 27. We've got a lot of great things in store for you today. We're gonna be chatting with Christian Peverelli, who um is a really interesting uh founder that we're gonna chat with. Outbond or outbond? Out bond. Bond. Sorry, I keep saying it wrong. But um, for those of you who don't know me, I am Mallory. I am your community and brand marketing extraordinaire. And then, of course, we have Charlie, who is our S E O expert. And then last but not least, we also have Connor, who is the go-to person for all things paid advertising and growth. So, yeah, so okay.

SPEAKER_04 3:29

Boom, Mallory, you nailed that. Amazing.

SPEAKER_03 3:32

All right, damn dog is we have this is my this is my first time doing the intro, guys. So thank you. You did great. Thank you. You do great.

SPEAKER_04 3:39

Well, it clicks.

SPEAKER_05 3:40

Wait, I was expecting more of like a song. Are you is the song coming? Oh, the song will be coming down the down the road.

SPEAKER_03 3:46

It will, especially when we pick a new name. I'm gonna I'm gonna do something fun. So we'll see a little jingle, maybe jingles, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:53

All right. What's really funny is jingles. Uh sorry to digress too much. We're gonna go into her catch-up, but I used the agency I I started at, they it's very like old school traditional advertising, some digital stuff in there, but like worked with a bunch of automotive dealerships, and they all have like their own little jingle. And we literally had this one guy, Tom Evitable. Like, he was really like good guy. What his name? What a name. He's also an author, which is really it works out really well, Tom Avitable. Um but he would just when we had to do like a holiday campaign or something, or just any regular campaign, you he'd close his door, and all you'd hear is just jingles upon jingles upon jingles, and mixing them, and some of them were he'd have people come and be like, What do you think? And he'd play it, and he had a really big ego. So you're like, you didn't want to hurt his ego too much, and you'd just be like, Oh, it's it's great, Tom. I hope the client likes it, and he'd send it off, and the client would just be like, What? What the fuck is this?

SPEAKER_02 4:48

This is the cringiest thing I have ever heard.

SPEAKER_05 4:50

It's so cringy, and it's just I think it was just that time where it was kind of getting out of the timeline of places using jingles for the most part, but he'd just come up with these corny, like early 90s jingles, and I'm like, Tom, I'm like, no, but but I can't say no, so I'm just like, go do your thing, man. Some of them were good.

SPEAKER_03 5:07

I'll give I'll guarantee there's a few of those and are subconscious that like if we were to hear it again, we would know the tune and we know the jingle to some of these commercials, at least for like and some of them were actually good.

SPEAKER_05 5:18

So I'll give them credit. And back, like when he had first started, I think he had come up with there's some commercial out there, the Crazy Eddie commercial. Do you guys know what that one is? It's like a very old, so it's like Crazy Eddie who would give like the biggest discounts on all of his vehicles and stuff, and it went really, really like before you could go viral, it went viral, right? Just in a traditional sense, and he was like, I guess, the genius behind that. So that was his calling card always.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

But um jingles and mascots, jingles and mascots, you really can't go wrong with a jingle and a mascot.

SPEAKER_05 5:45

We had a mascot for an automotive dealership. It was a bull, it was it was Route 22 Honda, and it was kiss the bull goodbye because you were kissing all the BS goodbye when you were going there for your car, you know. Wasn't the guy with the inflatable arms, the wagon? No, no, no. But they would have those, they'd have all sorts of like you know, activation, whatever you want to call it, like barbecues on the 4th of July. It's like, who's going there on the 4th of July? But hey, people show up, man. It's weird.

Weekend Catch-Up And Launch Milestones

SPEAKER_03 6:09

That's hilarious. That's hilarious. Anyway, I digress. I apologize. I yes. Well, I was gonna ask you guys how was your weekends? How was the past week? Charlie, tell us. Okay. I know you're launching campaign pilots like this here.

SPEAKER_04 6:22

Launching you out, yeah. Uh campaign pilots have been down that black hole. So I don't know what I'm gonna bitch about now that I can't bitch about API. Well, I'll still I'll still bitch about API endpoints. Um, but yeah, that those wrinkles have been ironed out. So campaign pilots is live. Uh we'll I guess we we can chat about it more in in a minute, but that is live. Uh, I learned a lot. This whole project between authentication, between connectors, between um just really how to work with AI in a way that doesn't just gas all of your tokens, how to plan, probably have a you know a PRD and then have a better plan for like here's this arm of the app, which does you know the reporting, I guess you could say. Yeah, so we'll we'll get into that more, but yes, the this episode is sponsored by campaign pilots.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

So uh this is our first sponsor.

SPEAKER_04 7:11

Yes, our first sponsor took us 27 episodes. You are welcome, you filthy animals.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Hey, it counts, it counts.

SPEAKER_04 7:21

Yes, and uh campaign pilots. I mean, what what a I think I first took it to Connor, the idea that I and he's like, Oh great, another fucking idea. And because I I took a lot of how I did it too.

SPEAKER_05 7:32

I was like, oh great, here we go. No, no, I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

And then uh I showed it to him, and what it does, it takes marketing analysis reports, so not just like dashboards and like the pie chart and the you know, the graph, like all that BS, but it actually tells you what is happening with your data. Let's say sessions and GA4 tells you is it direct, is it organic, is it paid, is it email, you know, affiliate, whatever those traffic sources are, it tells you what's historically been happening and then how to go about it in the next 30 or 60 days, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_03 8:03

So it takes Is it bad that when you said GA4, I thought of GTA four?

SPEAKER_04 8:07

No, because I I love that game.

SPEAKER_03 8:09

So I don't know why, but my brain's like GTA?

SPEAKER_04 8:11

Oh no, he's not talking about Gotham So it it solves a problem of marketing analysis that takes like six hours, six, seven hours of like making sense of your website data, and it does that in a matter of minutes. So it's it's geared towards AI builders as well as marketing agency teams or in internal marketing teams. So with with Connor's help, Connor was the first one, like uh Connor. I I remember showing you, I know this is still my weekly V1, V. Yeah, V1, and you're like, no, stupid, use a connector, not just a CSV upload. That's what I heard, and then I was like, Oh sh, oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_05 8:42

Yeah, uh I probably should I can come off really harsh sometimes, right? Direct.

SPEAKER_04 8:46

Yeah, I mean Brooklyn, right? So Queens. Uh okay, Queens. Come on, that is uh you kidding me? That is is done, that's out, that's deployed. Uh so that that's exciting. That's that's been in the brain for you know quite some time now. And it's badass. Yeah, that that thing is is freaking dope. So uh that is exciting. So you got that out. We'll get into that more here in a minute. Started a new show called Chernobyl on HBO. I have not seen that, and I fell asleep about 10 minutes in.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

So not good, clearly.

SPEAKER_04 9:18

Yeah, it didn't make any sense to me when I woke up and we're like freaking out. What is it?

SPEAKER_05 9:22

Chernobyl? Is that an older show? Yeah, yeah, it's like pre-co. It's like 2018, maybe 2019. Definitely did the same thing. I think I watched like the first episode and halfway through, I was like, no, no, I don't, it's too slow, don't understand it.

SPEAKER_04 9:34

Yeah, I was like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

Interesting. Well, I'm not gonna watch that, so okay.

SPEAKER_04 9:38

I finished task. That show is nuts. That show is wild. It's badass show. It's got um Mark Ruffalo in it.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 9:45

Yeah, badass show. Definitely peep that one. Uh, so that's cool. Yeah, back on the ice plane hockey. My hips are barking right now. Uh, I gotta do I do yoga like three times a week now.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

That's amazing. We should do I go, we should we should go to a yoga class together. I don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_02 10:03

Connor, too bad.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

What if we make it one of those sessions where we could do yoga with goats? Oh, goat yoga. Uh all right, you might have been doing that.

SPEAKER_04 10:12

Have you done goat yoga? Have you done yoga before, Connor?

SPEAKER_05 10:15

Yeah, I don't I don't like it. It's yeah, it's very difficult for me. I'm more of like just I like lift weights. Like I like to go in the gym and lift weights and like I lift.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

It's for flexibility, like flexibility, really, right?

SPEAKER_04 10:27

Breathing and and just like you know, because playing goalie, playing hockey. Like now that I'm back in our our Friday skate. Oh, yeah, by the way, I forgot how good NHLers are, even when they're retired. They are they're so good. I got you played against an NHL guy? That's so fun. In our skate, we have like a handful of them. Oh, that makes sense. There's probably a lot in like the Colorado area to see. Yeah, it's Colorado. So when I went to Raleigh, I asked him about you know, you have to ask the guys at the hockey store, the the skate sharpeners. Like, ask them about the scene, not coaches or like you want to ask them. And he looked at me and he was like, Yeah, it's not like it is in Colorado. Like Colorado's got a scene. So we play in our skate, a guy named uh well, I probably shouldn't say his name, but he's his numbers retired with the avalanche. Like he's one of the best goal scorers ever played for Colorado.

SPEAKER_03 11:13

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 11:14

And so like he comes and he's like the nicest dude too, and like he's still in wicked shape. He plays pro tennis in the area, uh, nicest guy, and he fucking just picks you up. He will he will like kind of be mean to a goalie, which is kind of fun. Like, it's cool to play against guys that are that good because we have like college players, and then you have like retired NHLers, yeah, yeah, that are like didn't have to be like and they like put them in their place, probably kind of like that's and then we have like retired NHLers that got paid to only score goals, and that's that dude. So you see like the different tiers of of skills, yeah, yeah, yeah. So uh that's pretty good. He's so good.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

He's I would be scared to play with him.

SPEAKER_04 11:48

He's like the coolest guy, and he'll stay and like drink beers and like tell stories of everything, you know. Because there's no like you know, quote, pigeons in the skate. So there's no like jock sniffers asking for autographs, like you're playing hockey with the guy, and yeah, you know, guys could you want?

SPEAKER_05 12:00

Why do you need an autograph?

SPEAKER_04 12:01

You're paying for it. Yeah, exactly. So there's like 24 guys, everybody, you know, one guy brings beers for everybody, and yeah, you stay and you you do your thing, and then you go home around, I don't know, five or six, and you get on through Friday night. So uh that was a very long intro between uh the launch, the deployment of the app, which is closed.

SPEAKER_05 12:20

Sponsored by campaign pilots.

SPEAKER_04 12:22

Yes, which we'll get into in a minute. But yeah, playing hockey and yoga, it helps so much with that. Just the up and down of goalies, and it just it ruins your hips.

SPEAKER_05 12:30

So I'm semi-convinced.

SPEAKER_04 12:32

Yes. Um anyway.

SPEAKER_05 12:33

Connor, what what's uh what oh man, you know, another day. It's Black Friday, Cyber Monday, madness the past few weeks. It's the time of the year, right?

SPEAKER_04 12:41

It's the best time of the year Monday before Thanksgiving is freaking awesome. I love this time of year. Yeah, except this is when people go feral at shopping centers.

SPEAKER_05 12:49

Yeah, it's that.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

But do they do, but do they still do that?

SPEAKER_04 12:52

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:53

Well, uh no, I mean by that, I would say they do because I personally wait for Black Friday, Summer Monday to buy certain things, right? Like I I want a new laptop, right? And I so why buy one now when I know on Friday I wanted one a month ago, and it's like just wait a month. My laptop still works, why not? And just wait till Black Friday when they're all on sale, and then I can get the laptop I want for maybe 200 bucks less. So I I'd say I am, I think it's you need to be a planner these days to probably take advantage of Black Friday because there's just so much thrown at you. So you should probably know what you want, but I'm sure there's a ton, I mean, there is. There's a ton of data behind like impulse shopping on Black Friday too. You throw a big deal in someone's face and they're gonna buy it whether they need it or not, right?

Why Campaign Pilots Matters For Marketers

SPEAKER_03 13:34

A deal. It's half the time it's not actually a deal, um, which I try and make sure I do research beforehand because I'm like, is this brand actually doing discounts or are they just like pretending like they're? Um, I think so. Like I remember 10, 20 years ago, I mean, more so 20, like people like fighting, like people waiting in long lines, people fighting. And I just think that physical stores were so much more prevalent than they are today. Like you can easily still participate, participate in Black Friday or Cyber Monday and just do it online without having to go somewhere in person. So I think there's less of that kind of vibe, but I'm still sure there's people that are waiting in lines that get into fights, you know, that are trampling over each other. But I just feel like it's less and less these days than it was many years ago.

SPEAKER_05 14:15

I'd be willing to bet if you actually go out in person, you probably get it's probably a better experience almost than maybe shopping online in some regard. Yeah. Because you you probably just don't have as many people out there and they may be trying to draw people in. I don't work with a lot of retail, so I can't really tell you in that regard, or at least brick and mortar stuff, but might be running better deals. Who knows? But anyway, my last week, two weeks, three weeks really has been just implementing, executing all BFCM stuff, getting it prepped, getting it ready for the big basic clients I have. So that's been taking up a lot of time and and I don't mind it. I like it. It's the busy time of year for me. And then once Black Friday's over, everything that comes after until the year's out is like a breeze. So it's like December, it gets really easy, and then January is like the calm after the storm, and I can take like two weeks of just like decompressing, not doing nearly as much. I have have a ton of clients who are just like, hey, we're gonna take a pause for January, which I'm okay with because it's just again, it's not their profitable time of year and allows me some time to take a break. But but that's where I'm at right now. And um, Thanksgiving coming up, I'm actually going to the parade in New York City. I've never been so super excited. Gonna have to get up really early, but that's the name of the game to get like a frontline spot. So yeah, my um frontline. Yeah, my wife and and her family, we're gonna head out very early Thursday, probably around 6 like a.m. Catch the train or the subway. It takes like probably take 30 minutes, 35, 40 minutes to get to where we want to be and catch the beginning of the parade, and that'll be a checkbox off the experience list. Cool. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's that's my uh my update for the week. Mallory, what's up with you?

SPEAKER_03 15:46

What's up in my world? All right. Well, um, definitely not as busy work-wise as Connor. Um, and that's more so intentional. Uh, and but a few things. One, this weekend I spent three to four hours learning Italian opera. I'm currently trying to learn the song Oh mio babbino caro, which caro, sorry. I'm learning my how to say specific Italian words. Um, and I'm learning for fun, more so for fun. And I've actually, funny enough, um, one time many years ago, I did a costume party with a bunch of friends and we all had to dress up as characters. I was an opera singer because my friend knows I knew how to sing, and she asked me to just randomly sing at some point because it's like one of those experiences where like you have to. So I just belled out Ave Maria all of a sudden. Everyone's like, What is going on? to the point where I have other friends that are like, Can you sing at my birthday? I was like, You want me to sing opera at your birthday? Like, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_05 16:42

That's awesome, though.

SPEAKER_03 16:43

I can sing pop, I can sing rock, we can, we can like, you know, make it way more exciting than that. But um, so that's been really fun. Uh diving into what's the name of the song again? It's called Oh Mio Babbino Caro. Yes. Yes. So when I have the recording, I know when I have the recording, I will send it. But yeah, it's so funny. I called my mom this weekend. I was like, Mom, I'm learning some opera, you know. Do you want to hear it? She's like, Yes, of course. So she's like in the car and I'm just singing in my office, and she's like, I'm crying. I'm like, oh my god. I was like, oh, this is the best. This is so sweet. This makes me so happy.

SPEAKER_04 17:20

So you're you're a classically trained opera singer, correct?

SPEAKER_03 17:24

I I am classically trained. I don't know, I wouldn't consider myself to be an opera singer. Like I grew up, I grew up singing a lot. I mean, for probably five to eight years of my life, singing choir, singing church music, singing, and a lot of that is very classical in nature. So, no, I'm not trained as an opera singer. I'm actually thinking, um, I was just telling the guys before we started recording that maybe in the next 20 years I can apply for something like the San Francisco Conservatory of Music and learn more. But um, yeah, it's really been nice to have the space to just be creative and and do stuff like this.

SPEAKER_04 18:00

So, what does that mean? You're you're classically trained. Like, like what goes into that? What does that actually mean?

SPEAKER_03 18:05

Um, that's a great question. I don't I think it's more so that my voice is built for really high ranges and I have a very strong vibrato and I love classical music. So I don't know. I wouldn't like look, I if you were to give me a sheet of music, I can't read you the notes. Like I'm not, I'm a very I have to like listen to something to learn and then kind of do it repetitively and then break it down. Um, but I think I don't, I don't know what the definition of would that be. Maybe I'm not actually, but I mean, I I did take lessons for a long time. So I I took lessons for years, not only just singing in choir, but then learning how to sing this type of of music. And in the Catholic Church, it's not considered opera, it's more just like classical music. And yeah, that's the best way to explain it. Yeah. So I did that. Um, did some coastal hikes with the dogs, um, also did some yoga as well, Charlie. Um vinyasa hot uh yoga. So keeping it simple. And uh I spent way too much money at the West Coast Craft Fair this weekend. For those of you who don't know, the West Coast Craft Fair is like what like it happens twice a year here in San Francisco, and it's a great place to buy literally anything that's like super unique clothes, knickknacks, art, home goods, and stuff.

SPEAKER_05 19:23

I love that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_03 19:24

I woke up Sunday morning, I found out, I told my, I looked at my husband, I'm like, this is my day. I have to go to this. And so I spent by is right. Um, so I did that. Um, had a great dinner with one of my ed tech uh founder friends. Hopefully we can get her on the pod next year. And and then last but not least, I got suck into a rabbit hole of making the best wish list for four women for the holidays. Um so so and it's not about me getting the gifts, it's about me just being able to curate the list. I have I have an obsession with curation, so that's a topic for another day. But um, that was my week. Oh, and then one other thing, I had my second post launch on my Substack today or uh last week, and it was focused on the loneliness epidemic and how community is really the antidote to modern day loneliness. And so if that um if that resonates with you at all, you definitely take a take a read. So um, okay, now I'm done. Now I'm done. Those are the updates. Those are the updates.

SPEAKER_04 20:25

Okay, cool, cool stuff. Uh what are you doing for Thanksgiving, Mallory?

Naming, Pricing, And Early Feedback Plans

SPEAKER_03 20:29

I'm gonna be hanging out with my niece and my nephew, my four-year-old niece, my and my three-month-old nephew, hanging out with my sister, having Thanksgiving with the family. It'll be honestly pretty, pretty chill. Um, my husband's trying to go crabbing in the morning, going surfing and going crabbing at the same time to catch some some crab. So instead of turkey, we're hoping to also have some crab because it is in season here in San Francisco.

SPEAKER_05 20:52

Job a crampa down like while he's surfing. Yeah, and then he'll go pick it up when he's done.

SPEAKER_03 20:56

Exactly. Exactly. He'll he'll he has everything, so it's crazy. But so we may have some fresh crab on on Thanksgiving. We'll see.

SPEAKER_04 21:04

Some of the best out there in SF, that's for sure. You all getting together any friends on Wednesday night? Like a nice dinner or anything?

SPEAKER_03 21:11

No, because I'm lame this year, I think. But okay, um, for just no reason, other than I've kind of been in isolation mode. So quarantine.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

I don't know. Yeah, I've I I've got uh my girlfriend and I headed our favorite restaurant Wednesday night. And uh I don't know. We I we're old now. That that's kind of a problem now. So if I have like two glasses of wine, I get like sleepy, even though I have uh insomnia.

SPEAKER_03 21:34

I'm right there with you. In fact, I won't even drink a lot of the times I go out now, which is sad. I want it's not that I don't want to, it's just it makes me feel like shit. So it gives me anxiety.

SPEAKER_04 21:43

I I just I I love wine and steak. It's so good. Oh yeah, it's it's it's so good. And this restaurant is so they're just on point with everything. Like their menus, their wine, their it's the steak. I I I probably sound like a turd right now, but yeah, it's it's it's I love this spot. So yeah, Wednesday night. Um, we'll see what's going on. And then Friday, we might do a Friendsgiving. We're just like a bunch of people together. I love Friendsgiving's.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

Yeah, me too. Me too.

SPEAKER_04 22:09

And my girlfriend makes the best brownies. Oh my god, they're so they're freaking unbelievable. Like from the south, it's like a recipe from her grandmother. It is unbelievable.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Okay, where where are where are our brownies? Like, what the heck?

SPEAKER_04 22:24

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_03 22:25

For Connor and I.

SPEAKER_04 22:27

Like, I I'm not sure what you mean. I'm not following you. I saw as you let to cast you because would you just send me some? It's like, I don't follow. I don't understand. I don't understand what you're saying. Anyways, um, so yeah, that's that's the that's the week. I look, I I love the this time of year, like I said, that the Monday of Thanksgiving through the end of the year, it's just freaking fantastic. I love there's a buzz in the air, right?

SPEAKER_05 22:53

It's just like oh, of course, in the holiday season.

SPEAKER_04 22:56

Yeah, anyways, um, okay, moving right along. Campaign pilots. This has been the front of my brain for so freaking long. I don't even know if this thing is gonna work. We'll just see. I we'll put it out there and seeing.

SPEAKER_05 23:08

Um how do you mean you don't know if it's gonna work? As in you don't know if it's uh customer base, is there?

SPEAKER_04 23:12

Okay, so to me, okay, when I say I don't know if it's gonna work, well, one, we don't we don't have any customers yet, but um I think it will just because it scratches our own itch. So, but there's a part of me that still thinks uh the way it reports, in other words, telling you versus showing you and not using charts, um, that might be a component that will need to be put in. But I guess at that point we would we would take customer feedback, I guess is how we would do that.

SPEAKER_05 23:37

Yeah, I would too. And I think we should also look at campaign pods as this ongoing, you know, optimization of it, right? I hate to use that word for everything, but it's like this ongoing just like reiteration of it and and building on what's already there and just making it better, right? So I think those pieces get put into place either at some point, whether it's by feedback or by our own use case.

SPEAKER_03 23:59

Yeah, I think I feel like a best next step would be to reach out to, you know, 10 marketers, you know, that you know really well that you respect to test out the tool and give you just honest feedback um on what they think, if that's your target, especially because, hey, like I just built this, I'm super excited to put out into the world. I've known you as like such an amazing type of marketer for so many years. Like, I would be so grateful and honored if you could just like test it out and give any feedback. I would do that so you can start getting some of those insights and that feedback without waiting for you know your first customer or what have you, right? Which you'll learn from that too. But I would try and go to the ideal ICP and already get them to test it out and start learning.

SPEAKER_04 24:40

So, Connor, how would you just because I've been staring at this thing for the past three months, four months, I don't know however long it's been, way too long. Yep. Um, how would you describe campaign pilots?

SPEAKER_05 24:52

Um, how would I describe campaign pilots as an efficient tool that saves you an enormous amount of time on reporting and analysis? And I think that alone, it just at least in my experience and other marketers, colleagues, they would understand what that means. And that's that's just like my one-word answer, right? It's it's an amazing tool that helps you with marketing analysis and strategic direction. Like that would be a really good way to put it, right? Because the whole output from it is it's gonna read what's in your Search Console, your Google Ads, your GA4, right? And based on the performance and the timeline, it's gonna give you what you need in terms to say this is what's working, this is why it's working, this isn't working, this could be why it's not working, and then come up with some really creative ideas in terms of how you can approach certain things that may not be meeting expectations or hitting the KPIs that you're looking for. So again, very long-winded answer, but the initial one, the initial one line of response is how I describe it. And again, I think that's a pain point that that solves a problem for a lot of people. Again, me alone, you know, 20, 30 clients or so. It's like I could spend entire in the beginning of a month.

SPEAKER_04 25:54

Yeah, like I used to reach out to you to hey Connor, can you can you make sense of this data? Can you can you put together reports that we don't get fired?

BFCM Madness And Marketing Seasonality

SPEAKER_05 26:01

Like, like, yeah, like each report, depending on how robust it is, can take anywhere from two to five hours, right? And again, 20 clients, and and that's coming from me, who's a more boutique, you know, agency. It's like think of really big agencies that have 50, 60, 70 clients, and you have to do reporting if you can automate that. Yeah, it's just like it saves you so much time. And listen, it's not, I'm not trying to downplay the importance of reading analytics and providing strategic direction post you know analysis, but it is something at this point that AI can do, right? And do it in a pretty efficient manner. And if there's ever any questions or concerns over the data output, it's like that's where I would go back. And that should be your job anyway as a marketer is to validate what you're actually getting, right? The tool is meant to help give you the report output 10, 20 times faster than you would do it normally. And then it's your job afterwards to where a report would take two hours, maybe it's 15 minutes of adjusting what the output is and then sending it over to the client, right? So again, I think it solves a huge pain point, especially for someone like me. And I'm not the only person who does reports like that. And the other thing on top of it is because of how I structure my reporting and analytics, I have you're not the only person who comes to me, Charlie, for just reporting. I have a lot of other agencies that I work with who they just don't excel at reporting, and it also solves a problem for them. Whereas, okay, I don't need to depend on Connor to do my analytical reports every month and make sure he gets it in on time or, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So again, it's not exactly replacing somebody, but it is accelerating the way in which you can get that, those reports out and over to clients with some solid analysis points. Got it, got it.

SPEAKER_04 27:36

I think uh when I was building it, I mean I I I would just shut it. I like well, I wouldn't turn off the lights, but I would just shut everything else off and I would just try and focus on this thing and solve a problem. I think it was Sam Altman that put out a post. Uh actually it might have been Bolt. Uh now that I think about it, actually, somebody put out a post, somebody really high up at one of these LLMs put out a post of the the way to win this game and the the AI SaaS game, the way to win this is to not make an app that people use, make it irreplaceable, and basically make the app part of the workflow. So when when I I showed Connor, the first thing he says is no, no, no, use connectors. No, stupid, like like put in the connectors, GA4, search console console, and Google Ads. And I was like, Oh yeah, by by doing that, we will then inherently replace the need to go to GA4, Search Console, and Google Ads, which I don't even use Google Ads, but GA4 and sifting through those frickin' sidebars of they suck anyways, like sifting through those suck anyways.

SPEAKER_05 28:35

It's all as time consuming, it's really time consuming. I think there's there's a two-part play here. So go ahead, Charlie. Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 28:41

I I was gonna ask Mallory, like as someone who doesn't or like did you look at at the end the analytics a lot at at Bolt or or Discord?

SPEAKER_03 28:49

Yeah, I mean, I yeah, I mean, as someone who's going to be running a marketing team, you know, I need to make sure that there's some amount of reporting happening. So um, but it's just like stringing together a bunch of data points that are being tracked on multiple platforms depending upon the campaign or whatever I'm doing. And then it's about turning that into a report for the leadership team. Um, and then also finding a way to share that data with the team as well. So we know how to like actually improve on our follow up follow-up campaigns or what have you.

SPEAKER_06 29:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

Um, and I'm not a data person. I got a D in fourth grade in math. Um, I can do some math, but like I'm not your data expert. And so having a simplified way to do that, I think is important, considering that there are all these data points are all over the place, anyways. So yeah. Uh, but look, a lot of folks are like, aren't you just like a vibe marketer? And yes, but also and like there's data that is being tracked um in parallel. I'm not just like blind, do you know what I mean? Right.

SPEAKER_04 29:47

Yeah, yeah. I think uh just making sense of all that. And by the way, you're talking to someone who got D's his entire school career. The only reason I passed was because of test scores. And my teachers hated that. They hated. It drove them batty.

SPEAKER_03 30:01

You're a good test taker.

SPEAKER_04 30:03

Yeah. That was good. Cause I would just my brain was just all over the place. Anyway, um, so just making sense of that data. Even just like thinking about the the road, like organic search and then like all the KPIs, just like, oh, that is so boring. It's tedious. Brutal.

SPEAKER_05 30:19

It's so the thing, it's like I love it, but it's so tedious, right? Like at this point, reporting is I just don't like doing it because it's so tedious. Like I'd rather go vacuum my living room or something. Like it's 100%. I'd rather go. I kind of like vacuuming. Maybe it's personality type. No, I love data and I love vacuuming.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

Well, I like vacuuming, but I don't like data. Unless it's summarized simply for me, then I do like the data actually. So there it is.

SPEAKER_04 30:46

Okay. So it does that.

SPEAKER_03 30:47

It takes I I like it's just more so I need it to be simplified. I need to make it quicker. Connor's point, right? Like how it takes any marketer between two to five hours to like pull together a meaningful report to whoever they're trying to share that with. And that to me, like if I can be spending more of my time doing the things that I know I and get energy out of and are my strong suit, so I can say and save time elsewhere, like coming up with freaking reports. Because I think two reports, you gotta like go down the rabbit hole right a little bit and just really dig in. And I'm like, I don't, I can't, I'm like, I don't have the focus for that.

SPEAKER_05 31:20

Yeah, it's such a big that's another pain point too, right? It's like, so even if again, how you approach reporting, like your reports are typically going to what? Either your higher ups, right? State, like really important stakeholders in the company, or it's going to a client, right? And and I'm sorry, anybody can take a screenshot and be like, hey, I had 50,000 sessions from organic and 25 from paid and 30,000 from referrals. And it's like, that's great. Like everybody can read, right? It's like, what does it actually mean? And what's the, you know, what's the change in percentage and what's the output? And what did you do to create the sessions to drive in? Or why is it declining, right? So it's to Mallie's point, going deeper down that rabbit hole. And that's where it gets really extensive, right? So it's like the whole thing about reporting too, it's like that's your opportunity to showcase value for either you as an individual or you as an agency or you as a marketer, right? To say, hey, yep, data's here. This is what we did, and now I'm validating what we did because it created positive outcomes. Or here's your negative outcomes and here's how we're gonna fix it, right? Telling someone, hey, this campaign got you 50 conversions. So what? How did the conversions get there? Where'd they come from? What's the behavior? You know, that's where all of it comes into play in campaign pilots solves that.

SPEAKER_04 32:29

I think that's that's a big part of the value, is the how it tells the story.

Opera, Yoga, And Creative Fuel

SPEAKER_03 32:33

Uh and then we'll have to uh we do some workshopping on positioning, perhaps. Yeah. Um, but Charlie, I don't hate data. It's more so I hate the process. I actually think data as a marketer is a massive tool that I embrace. It's more so the process of pulling all that together, telling the story. And then to Connor's point, like digging into the strategy. It's like, yes, I could just say we got 500,000 impressions, but like what right? Like there, what's what's the why behind it? What's the how? Where is it coming from? So there's also that too.

SPEAKER_04 33:04

So it it ultimately saves time. It's geared towards AI app builders, uh, hence the show, or pardon me, the sponsorship presented by sponsorship, uh, so that app builders can you know know where their customers are coming from and what to do next. And then uh marketing teams, agencies, internal teams, uh CMOs, marketing managers, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:23

Like this is can be used across a couple different.

SPEAKER_04 33:26

Yeah, and I I don't remember at what point we put in uh the ability to schedule the analysis too. So really you won't even need to go to GA4 Search Console or ads anymore. You can just schedule that report, tell it what you want.

SPEAKER_05 33:38

And then can't we send it to a specific user, right? Like if we want to change the email. So again, for client reporting, if you just want to be like, hey, every week you're gonna get a report on your Google Ads performance with some really valuable takeaways, you just CC them on it and it and it shoots out again, like hands-free, yeah, no work done.

SPEAKER_04 33:54

I uh I did that last week to Connor. I was like, I wonder if he'll I mean this is gonna hit his inbox. I wonder if he'll read it, but it was like last Friday, I think I put that in the CC, and then I just sent it randomly to it. Yeah. Um, but no, that's oh my gosh, it saves so much time.

SPEAKER_05 34:07

So I mean, I use it right now. I get a report every Monday for for a client and I send it off to him.

SPEAKER_03 34:12

I need to be I need to be testing the I doctor it up a little bit, right?

SPEAKER_05 34:16

Because again, it's like I don't want exact AI output. I want to send it to no M dashes in there.

SPEAKER_04 34:21

No M dashes. That was a big freaking M dashes. Yeah. Uh yes, Mallory, I I will I'll share access. Uh I'll get you.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

I'd love to dig in. Cool.

SPEAKER_04 34:30

Um, you know what? As a brand marketer expert community, I'm gonna hold back. What are your what are your thoughts on the name campaign pilots?

SPEAKER_03 34:37

I was waiting for you to ask me this question.

SPEAKER_04 34:40

Go goes through it, Mallory.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

No, I'm just kidding. No, no, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. No, I actually like it.

SPEAKER_03 34:46

Um I do, okay. I do.

SPEAKER_04 34:48

Um the word campaign pilots refers to the agents. I do.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

It's actually the one word I hate. Uh it's sorry, I shouldn't I hate the wrong words.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

It's the one word out of both of them that I'm like not as excited about, but I get it. I understand. Like to me, it's like, okay, it's a place where I'm going to be able to better understand my campaigns or even manage them, which isn't necessarily what's happening here, or even understand them. So that's kind of where my brain goes when I hear that. I don't hate it. Easy to say, four syllables. Love that. Um, sorry, I had to count camp. No, I love it.

SPEAKER_05 35:26

No, no, no. It's it's not on. I love that you do. That's the D student coming out, right?

SPEAKER_03 35:31

I know. Yeah, that's the D student. I'm like, I got a cut on my fingers. Yeah, because that was gonna say I was gonna do it. I still do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:37

Um, and it's very simple. It's easy to say. I think it's pretty self-explanatory. Yeah. It it's just like which for like a data platform, I actually really like the name. Okay, good.

SPEAKER_04 35:47

Because I want to go into the process of like, well, choice.

SPEAKER_05 35:50

You didn't get a D on this one, Charlie. That's an A, man.

SPEAKER_04 35:53

That's an A on the name. I was uh going after handles and then like trademarking it. Yeah, going through that process. I don't know what that entails, but I guess we'll we'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_03 36:03

You'll figure it out. I mean, usually it depends. Like you might have to work with a trademark lawyer. You'll have to file or you can file it yourself, or I'm which I've never done before, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:13

Yeah, I'll figure it out. Cool. Well, that that is exciting stuff. That has been I wish I had my phone handy, uh, Connor, because I would play that voicemail that you sent me or that you left me, pardon me. Uh, I want to say that was mid-August. What about validating the idea for you? You were like, this is what I want to do. And uh it was a it was a voicemail you left me, and it was like, yo, hit me up. You're probably on your bike doing something stupid. But this campaign pilots is or this app idea, I think you said we didn't have the name yet. You said this app idea is really interesting. Call me back, click. So I I I played it uh about six weeks ago, but I'll I'll play it again in uh our next episode. If it's still sponsored by campaign pilots.

SPEAKER_03 36:51

Yeah, we we might kick out we might kick out campaign pilots as a sponsor by next week.

SPEAKER_04 36:56

So they can throw shit together.

SPEAKER_03 36:59

For real. Last I heard they were stuck in some Google API bullshit. So if they can get it out of that, then like we'll maybe that's the worst.

SPEAKER_04 37:09

Anyway, um, okay, so we've got Christian Pavrelli, and that was a great interview. Great dude. Good uh good insights. And I mean his his tool, Outbond. Uh I mean that it's it's a badass tool. So um I learned I learned I want to I I I really want to look into that app. Uh it looks great, and he shared his screen. He we we did like a walkthrough.

Sponsorship Reveal And Product Positioning

SPEAKER_05 37:31

It was it's just a really cool concept for cold email outreach to me, right? And I know he's gonna tie some other things into there, but again, it's like working. And Charlie, you've done that. I mean, I think we've all probably had some you know involvement in in outbound cold emails at some point in our careers. And it's it's just taking it, automating it in a system that actually understands. And he used this word, like how sophisticated it actually has to be, right? It's not like find a list of people, download it, don't clean it, right? Just put it in an email platform and come up with one email with you know, maybe high first name and then your body copy and send it out. And it's it's like that doesn't work when you do it manually, right? Like you have to go through all the steps of collecting the data, right? Um, enriching that data right from the contacts, cleaning it, putting it in the software, and then putting in your dynamic fields. And it's like he's just taking all this and just you know, from start to finish, like it's a couple of button presses and some prompts, and it's doing all that work for you. So I just found it a very um efficient tool more than anything else. That's just again leveraging AI and really smart build.

SPEAKER_04 38:34

It's a good looking app, it solves a real problem because I I used to have to do that at the freaking magazine. And and he's an early investor and lovable, which is wild.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

Super cool. Um, and for myself, I mean, like you said, Connor, like we've all done outreach and in our careers. So um I felt like that was kind of a magical moment as a marketer to just be like, holy cow, something that I'd have to like dive into a spreadsheet and get all of this information manually is now just populating in real time and it can get super specific. So, you know, as an agency owner when it comes to outreach with specific businesses or startups that I'm looking to work with, like it'll be a great tool for that. I think that there it does a lot of other things, but I'm I think that to me felt like the magic moment or like the the part of the product that I would at least market the most. That's just a personal opinion, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:27

Well, let's uh let's throw it over to Christian. Let's do it. All right, we are here with Christian Pepperelli, founder and CEO of Outbond.ai. Christian, thank you for taking your time and being on the show.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

Absolutely, man.

SPEAKER_04 39:40

Super glad to be here. Yeah, and for context, I literally just plowed into your DMs and and uh like you're you're coming on the show. Like, like you just stop what you're doing, everything you're doing on Tuesday afternoon, morning, whatever it is, your time to do it.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Yeah, I mean, I read AI coding and I was sold. That was it.

SPEAKER_05 39:54

It was that easy.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Yeah, it wasn't sorry, it wasn't your profile pick that got me in. Oh, good, no offense, of course.

SPEAKER_04 40:01

I kind of look like a farm animal. But um, well, also, okay, Christian, so please uh tell us uh, you know, brief kind of history and then and where you're at now with with out bond.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Yeah, oh man, history. Um only makes sense when you look backwards, right? Because the past 15 years I've been building companies and it's been like totally crazy. Uh got some some wins and some losses there. Uh about what was it, eight years ago, I became the director of an accelerator program in LA when I moved to LA. So historically, I'm like very multi, multinational kind of guy. Um, grew up in South America and Europe mostly. And so when I moved to the US, I decided, okay, great. Like right now I'm not running a company, I'll take this opportunity. And I loved training founders on one side, and on the other side, I was like looking at thousands of applications and just realizing, like, oh my god, the system is broken. You know, it was kind of like this realization that like, you know, we're fielded, we were fielding like about eight to ten founders that we were selecting, but out of about a thousand per cohort. And then we trained them for like six weeks, put them on stage at Google. Um, and the process was just like seeing where founders were for the amount of time and energy they had invested. And I just found like basically like no or terrible products and no customers was like status quo. It was like 90% of founders were in that situation. And oftentimes it spent like so much money with programmers. I personally had been frustrated in the past 15 years ago, starting a first tech company with as a non-tech person. And that's when I realized I wanted to actually create kind of like a more hands-on accelerator that actually taught people how to do things, not just like go talk to customers, but like the tactical side. And at the time, no code was like a movement that was uh really just starting. I discovered web flow and it was like the realization, like, oh my God, I can actually do it. And that like has basically turned into kind of like an obsession for me. And like um this idea that, like, oh my god, even though I'm like a terrible and like, you know, I'm a guy who's like out, you know, you know, I love being outside. I love like, you know, I'm not at all a kind of tech guy. I'm able to like, you know, build a website that's beautiful, you know, and that evolved into me building We Are No Code into basically a several seven-figure company in starting a YouTube channel to just teach people some no code tools and like uh and and entrepreneurship, and um and uh that led to a YouTube channel with 300k subscribers. I think maybe today. I might hit it today. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

Maybe today, maybe it's that background.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Um and that's changed everything basically, but it also brought up the next big question, right? I was early in that uh space and and discovered AI coding and really shifted the entire business of We Are No Code because for me, the end goal is like help non-technical like founders, right?

SPEAKER_06 42:47

Yeah.

Deep Dive: What Campaign Pilots Automates

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Um, and and you know, so I shifted into AI coding when and also invested was an early investor in Lovable when they um started coming out, and like Bolt and Lovable and Replit were kind of the only ones on the market at the time. Now obviously there are many more. Um, but I realized like this is the future, you know, and I saw it happen so quickly in that space, but I also realized like now that building has become increasingly easier, the problem is how do you go to market, right? And that's when, funny enough, but like Outbond was born super organically. Like I had a um a like probably my nerdiest student ever who like joined the program. Guy was like an AI solutions architect, uh, you know, had been like building apps um for companies for for a really long time and like building automations, all this kind of stuff. And you know, he built leveraging no code like with make an air table, just like a an automation that was booking him, like, you know, about eight customer discovery interviews with my framework, right? So I had like all like, you know, like I basically had it all like written out and like how you have to do and the cadences and like how the whole thing should work. And he and then he just automated like the nuts and bolts. So then we had other people start doing that, and that's what got me interested. I usually get really curious when like I see something really cool like that. Started doing some research and discovered clay, basically, which is this like go-to-market tool that's super sophisticated. But then I also discovered like this like multi-million dollar agency model around it because it's so damn hard to use. And so it made me realize at that point that there was a clear opportunity here. And having fallen fallen in love with like the kind of like left nav experience of like the likes of Lovable Clay and even like things like Cursor, even though Cursor is on the right, um, you know, it made me realize that there was gonna be a similar opportunity in the go-to-market space. So that's when I was like, you know, in the end of the day, this is what I want to dedicate my next 10 years towards, because like my end goal is, you know, and it's basically like I want to, you know, leave this world, having been known as the person who helped a bunch of other people like escape, like not escape the nine to five. I don't like saying that, but like being able to believe in themselves and take action on their own dreams, even if they are a part have a nine to five, and like, you know, like just the ability for them to do it. And I think like the majority of us are non-technical, so empowering non-technical people. And so for me, like this shift is now like, well, if you need a go-to-market engineer to use clay, like great, let's just build something that allows you to do that without a GTM engineer and that makes it like accessible to the rest of us. Uh, because frankly, like sophisticated um plays uh is what's required these days, right? Uh, you can't just you know blast out an all, you know, and you know, all what is it? A one one size fits all kind of like email and expect to get any kind of responses. So you have to get more sophisticated, and I don't think that would should require a go-to-market engineer. So anyway, super long-winded answer to you. No, I told you.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

So I'm curious, I'm curious, like why outbond instead of outbound? Because I unfortunately I'm finding myself kind of saying both. Um, and we were like trying to figure this out beforehand. We're like, is it kind of a domain situation? Like, what's the inspiration behind the name?

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Yeah. So honestly, there there are two things. Like the the the word bond both both relates to bonding with another person. Um, so kind of you know, getting customers is ultimately being able to like bond with people. So that was one piece of it. And then bond, like, you know, the secret agent who's able to uh hyper target uh the people.

SPEAKER_02 46:34

I see okay, brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

Now that being said, you know, you are right that that is a common mistake that people uh make. You know, outbound uh is similar to outbound, which is why we don't really talk about outbound as much as outreach. Because I also think the word outreach is more accessible to the the general public where they understand what outreach is, whereas like outbound is like a little bit more for the you know uh techie people. But yeah, no. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

I think you're totally spot on.

SPEAKER_05 47:03

Yeah, that's really creative. The the bond being like the secret. That's pretty cool, man. Like it's cute.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

That's I mean, I can take credit for like I'm smart and that's badass, but also it's just like a lot of time on like name cheap, just like looking out a domain. No, I mean and then you play his name and then you have to find a story behind it, right?

SPEAKER_05 47:22

Well, Charlie is uh Charlie's known for just uh Charlie, how much do you just scroll on like you know, domain finders just to find something you think's gonna hit the jackpot one day?

SPEAKER_04 47:31

Uh well, not as much as I used to, because now agents can can do some of that work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, before prior to it was it was I so I toned it down. I I own the domain vibecoding.co, I think, or dot Io. I think after that I dropped some money. I was like, all right, I'm I'm gonna just taper down a little bit. I was flooring it before that. Oh, I have to go ham.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

The real question is have you sold any of your 20,000 domains that you own? That's the question.

SPEAKER_04 47:57

I have not, no, and I I was bidding on a couple like pretty big ones.

SPEAKER_02 48:01

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 48:02

I did this, I've done the same thing where like a disease everyone who can make it has. I know. It's especially as an SEO, like it's it's pretty bad.

SPEAKER_05 48:12

Yeah, and I've done it before, and I'm like in my host, and it's like, here's your domain value, and it just went from like zero dollars to like 30, and I'm like, yes, I knew it. I knew it was gonna score big.

SPEAKER_03 48:22

Yes, but like you'll never sell it. So you like won't actually see anything from it.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

It's like your crypto, you know, it's like all those paper games are so great.

SPEAKER_05 48:31

And I'm waiting for the broker to reach out to me any day now if somebody wants that domain.

SPEAKER_04 48:35

The the the GoDaddy guy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

Yeah. Turns out Poopy Dog uh doesn't is not a great cryptocurrency. Um anyway, kind of kind of steering it back too.

SPEAKER_05 48:47

So so talking about Outbond, um, Christian, you explained it to us a little bit earlier, but just for the listeners, like can you explain in simple terms, you know, outbond, what it does, what problem does it solve for everybody who who uses it?

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Yeah, I mean, the best way to describe it is as a sales intelligence tool. And I always use sales intelligence just because like we're an agentic first platform. So basically it's just a bunch of agents that are specifically trained on the right models to do things. Uh, but ultimately it's like the it's like a lovable style experience um that can run workflows. Um and what I mean by that is kind of outreach um workflows. Um so basically, if I break it down in plain English, it's like you can build hyper-targeted lists, then you can do uh enrichment, um, meaning you can find their like, you know, company information, like phone number, their email address. You can also do deep research about these prospects. You can do uh hyper-personalized um copywriting, whether that's like a message or maybe like you want to do a custom sales script for each prospect. Um, and then yeah, and then you can plug it into a sequencer so that you can send these out. So basically it's like hyper personalized outreach at scale. So the ability to do that for like thousands of people without burning out your you know domain, that's probably the number one mistake that people make. And then also like creating uh I'm a big believer that like outbound or like this process of outreach has been really broken for a long time. Everyone kind of like thinks of it as like just like spam. Uh, and it's gotten even worse with like AI. But the thing is that like when you are able to, you know, basically build these things out very quickly and like sophistication, but also ease of use and and speed, it means that you can basically like send out very, very smaller number of people like in each campaign, like maybe like 50, 100, 200 instead of like thousands of people, and you can make with AI these like messages really, really well drafted, right? And I think there's even a lot of mistakes that people make right now, right? Yeah, so if I take it one step more technical, there's like signals, right? Like the most important thing is actually building a list, right? And I'll probably show this in just a little second, but like if you just get in front of the right people at the right time, you are way more likely to get you know positive response. You're already further ahead.

SPEAKER_04 51:11

Timing is like the perfect ingredient.

Guest Intro: Christian Peverelli Of Outbond

SPEAKER_00 51:14

And it's like that's where they say, like, the list is the message. Uh, there's like a saying, like, the list is the message, you know, and it's because like, you know, if you're moving, for example, right, and then um, you know, you're like two weeks before moving, and suddenly you get hit up by a company that's like, hey, you need boxes. It's like, even if it's like totally cold out of the blue from you know, John Doe that you don't even know, like, there's a much more like you know, there's much more higher likelihood they're gonna open it. Exactly. Open it, read it, and probably even buy. And that's where you know we've been able to uh increase the conversion from like kind of like cold email, usually like open rates, uh, or not open rates, but like positive response rates are like one percent, like maybe max two. Like we're like seeing campaigns that we're building that are at like um 10, 12, 15, like this is a dream for case. It makes yeah, it makes a big um kind of difference. So we're trying to solve that big problem because ultimately, you know, the the the channels will change. One day it won't be email, you know. You can also do this on LinkedIn on the platform. You can also just like do it with phones, like call people or like you know, but ultimately, like business ever since we traded with salt has not changed. You gotta meet the right people, then you you know, you basically build the relationship, and then you know, you do a deal or no deal, right? Like the show. Um usually the answer is don't take that box. Um but basically, but basically, like um, I think that that's like a fundamental piece that has to be fixed because it'll it's probably not gonna go away in a long time. So, you know, you can do outreach and you know, we're hyper focused on like getting customers, but we're actually seeing people use it for like things like partnerships, uh, recruitment, um, and a lot of other use cases that are basically like guess even fundraising for like VCs. It's like hell yeah, just go in here and like, hey, find me the funds who are are currently, you know, in you know that that focus on this type of company, et cetera, et cetera.

SPEAKER_05 53:10

And so you can have you can even have builders come in and use this based on what the what they put together and target the right audience for it, right? Just to see if if you can get people to sign up or whatever your objective is. But it's it's such a great point to you, Christian, because I I work with a ton of you know um people who need CRM outbound outreach, cold email marketing, and it is such a pain point to constantly rotate through domains, make sure there's a ton of syntax and emails, and and it's manual work right now, right? So what you're doing is solving a problem by just automating a lot of the you know grunt work, I guess you could put it, and and get it out the door a lot faster with results that speak for themselves. So that's that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

We kind of took took the cheat codes because uh we you know built a lot of the complexity that you would see in a platform like Clay, but then we trained all of the AI on all the best GTM uh uh like engineers in the world, like literally the cream of the cream. So, like basically when you use our platform, you're not only using a platform that's relatively easy to use, but like the prompts that are created, for example, if you're doing something like, okay, do lead scoring for me. Like that lead scoring is gonna be very sophisticated. And all you said is qualify these leads, and it like builds out that entire like lead qualification for you. Same thing with like deep research, it builds agents and goes out and searches the whole web, scrapes their website, like yeah, so there's it's sophistication with ease of use, and that's what we've like always been about, really. That's like, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:35

Yeah, and it makes total sense because that sophistication piece, right? It's it's that extra step or two that sometimes I think people aren't taking to make it a more sophisticated system. And if yours is doing it in an automated fashion, awesome. Like it's great, time saver.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

So the funny thing that we've realized is like actually, like there are two parts to it, and it's very rare to find people who are amazing at both, right? So like now we've taken out the technical complexity of like building out these sophisticated campaigns, but like it still requires to understand like, well, like who should I target? What kind of like what would be the angle in me targeting? So like the strategic side of things is something that we're increasingly like helping people to learn. Um, but I think that you know, when you put the technical part into the hands of someone who's a little bit more sales or go-to-market oriented, like they are just in a way better position to understand what how to kind of tackle like reaching out to these people. And um, and so I think that you know, that's our ultimate goal is to like, you know, I I think on our website we have it's like you know, we turn, you know, every salesperson into like so they can perform like a top one percent. Like that's kind of what we're trying to do. You know, it's like yeah, maybe I can show you guys this at some point if you want to.

SPEAKER_04 55:45

Yeah. Let me ask first, real quick, Christian. When when I was with my old job before I started um down the SEO, uh dark, very dark rabbit hole. Uh, I was selling ads in a magazine, and um, I would get phone numbers and emails. So, like we we had our CRM and it drove me frickin' bananas because there were times where like the emails weren't verified, they would bounce back and then I would call, you know, I would first call like on the phone to sell an ad and it would just be like a dummy phone number. So I used to get all my phone numbers from press releases and I'd get cell phone numbers from the accounting department because AR always picked up the phone, they always picked up the phone. So, how do we know that on this platform the phone numbers and emails are legit? Like they'll they'll actually reach that decision maker.

SPEAKER_00 56:29

Oh man, I just have to show you the platform because we have basically dive in. Because the thing is like we've built in like, okay, so the world right now, and and let me just kind of explain what what like the world right now looks like, just so I can kind of show you. But I'll show you the you know, I'll put this as so people can also see kind of the uh, you know, once you log in, the dashboard is that's pretty. Yeah, and um basically like first it's like build a list, right? And usually, like you're absolutely right, like finding the right prospects is a huge pain in the butt. People are using sales nav with 10,000 tabs open, and then like and then enrichment is the next part. Now we need to find these people's contact information, like who do we like what providers do we use? Like, we've also already brought in all of the best providers into this platform uh based on the selection of the best GTMs in the world. So it's like they use the same, pretty much the same stack, all of them. Um, and that's because there are just some people who are great at this. So, like the the way that, and I'll kind of bring you through some basics here, but like there are three main ways that we like starting things out. Like, either you just like build me a list of and you describe the role, you describe the type of company or industry, the location, and the size, right? That would be kind of like a classic prompt that you'd feed it. Yeah, um, and then it would do a search based on that and build a list. Um, and I'll talk and I'll answer your question with enrichments in just a second, because we do waterfall enrichment basically. We have five of the best providers in the world, and it goes through each one of them, and then if it finds it, it then does verification as well because we have another verification provider, pings the server, and then it's gonna tell you whether or not that is a valid email or not. Okay. Meaning that you can now sieve out the people who are not or filter out the people who are not and target the people who are. That's the long story. The last one you could do is I know exactly the companies. Let me just say here are the people I'm looking for at those companies, and then dump a list of maybe 50 companies. So these three just stay strictly to kind of like this approach, and you'll be like pretty good. Let's let's use this one as an example, and I'll also add an additional thing. Um, and you can find by the way, we have like a free like um kind of like um all the filters that you could apply so that you know like to stay within that realm of filters. But I'll show you how we can find out so so much more about these people uh who recently changed jobs. And let's say um San Francisco, and I'm gonna make lots of mistakes just on purpose. Um, and then senior marketing managers.

SPEAKER_04 58:57

What if it pulls up Mallory?

Founder Story And No-Code To AI Shift

SPEAKER_00 58:59

Yeah, exactly. It absolutely will. I hope it does. So then you just like kind of go and it splits into two um things. Now on the left-hand side, what we have is basically a full uh agentic infrastructure that is going to break down this basic prompt into the filters, it's gonna apply that and search multiple different databases uh and and actually live. So it's not just like, oh, some big database with like stale data. It's like live going out and finding it, and it's gonna create like a preview of first prospects that we're gonna be able to take a look at and see like whether or not this actually works or not. So, like the first thing we'll see is that you know, because we put this filter recently changed jobs, that means that like we're it only brings up people who changed jobs in the past 30 to 60 days. And so you see that there's actually only 41 people who fit this criteria, and that's because it's very niche, right? We like have like this, yeah. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 59:54

This now I was just saying, wow, this is incredible. I was actually gonna ask you earlier like, what is the difference between Between a tool like this and like an AI wrapper, but like I understand it's like the verification sort of validation uh processing component is very different. And the the fact that the data is live, right? It's not like data that is old. So yeah, just those two things off the bat kind of is there anything else though outside of that?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

Yeah, so this is where it gets like even better, like because it's AI, like this is our first prospecting. And this is a little confusing. People were changing this actually to like see the actual people's faces as like cards so that you can see these as like individuals because people think the list, the bus, the sorry, the list is built here. And actually, this is a preview of 25 uh prospects out of these 41, right? Um, and you have to import the number you want to actually build the list. So at the top here, there's prospecting list files. I'm not gonna get into too much detail. But basically, the cool thing is like, okay, do the entire uh US now. And so you can go back and forth. Like you can say, oh, actually, I don't want, you know, here's the other thing. Like, I don't want this like role, right? Uh marketing manager, I only want senior. If they're called marketing manager, I don't want those people, for example. But one of the big things that it does is that it's able to also grab super weird things and find like alternative names for those roles that you would have never thought of, you know. So if you're looking for like compliance managers, for example, like it's kind of tough sometimes to like know what these people would call themselves unless you know this industry so well. And they'll probably have 10 different ways of doing it. So now we do a second search, we change the criteria a little bit, and now we have way more people because there are way more people who uh because now we did US, the whole of the US. So you could just fine-tune, fine-tune, fine-tune. And then when you're looking at your profiles here, you're like, oh yeah, these are exactly the type of people that I'm going after. Um, you know, and I'm happy with this now, perfect. New York, B2B marketing, um, cool. This is who I'm going for. Then we can import lists. So then import leads, um, you know, this is also something we're gonna change because uh we import by pages, 25 leads per page. So I'll just import 25 here to just show it. But then it builds out the entire list for you, creates the columns, and starts bringing in all the data. Oh awesome. Um yeah, including something that we added to this, which is um we have an agent that based on just the base information we have brings in their website, and that's super important for a number of reasons.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:24

Yeah, yeah.

Outbond’s Approach To Outreach At Scale

SPEAKER_00 1:02:25

But anyway, so that's step one. That usually this process alone, like we're having SDRs tell us, like, oh, like this is what 50% of my the time of my SDR does is just prospecting. And your list finds better prospects in seconds. So I'm like, okay, that's cool. But then, like, after that, and this is where the whole world is like split into thousands of different things, people will usually go to a like an enrichment platform, right? Like a data provider that can find you emails, right? For us, we could just be like booga booga, find emails. Um and I could say I'm gonna use that before my prompts moving forward now. Yeah, I think if you say booga booga, it will be the AI will just answer like, do not insult my intelligence. I am way better than you. So now it creates an additional column basically for you, and it's gonna run through waterfall enrichment. So, what it does actually under the hood is that it finds emails, it goes through like the top providers, and it then pings the server. And if you have a little check mark here, you can see that it is a valid email, right? So if I go inside this column setting and you can go into all the column settings, I can see all the providers. Prospio is like an amazing provider, but these are basically the best quality providers uh that you can get all under the hood. And instead of having to buy licenses with bulk uh thing, like we've bought that, so you also have great pricing within the platform. Um, and then and then you know, we could run this for the whole like uh row, right? So for thousands of leads all at once. Now you've just solved the problem of having three other tools for enrichment, verification, all that. Super easy. Same thing with phone numbers. And on the hand side, this is what I love maybe the most, is like it just starts pushing you more closer and closer to actually you know creating a full campaign, which would be like um, you know, potentially doing some research. So this is the next thing that I love is like the research because it's like you know, think of it like a um an agent builder, right? So I can say something like, okay, could you now do research about this company and figure out their ideal customers? I want you to return the answer in uh three to five words. In yeah, I'll just say three to five words. Now you can pretty much ask to do research about anything, right? Uh right now, this process is like great, we went through the whole enrichment stuff and that's all cool. Now I'm gonna go into Chat GPT and grab each one of these companies' names, and I have my fancy prompt, but I'm now doing this for like every single prospect one by one. That's literally what people are doing today. So let's see, what's your website? That doesn't matter. You have to search for their website. Do it for me. Yeah. Are you asking me to research uh companies? Yeah, to understand their ideal customers. One, yes, done. Okay. Um, so basically, it's really like it's just asking you the this this information, and I understand. You want me to research one?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:31

It really doesn't want to do the work right now. I know it's you gotta bully it a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:36

Yeah, AI is just lazy. Yes, do it. And this is like the beautiful thing about AI is like I can demo this and exactly do exactly the same things, and you'll get slightly different results. Different output, yeah. Yeah, um, which is also great when uh because it means that like even if you're looking for the same types of leads, you're not gonna get the same uh like lead list as other people to. Um, so what has it done here? It has actually created an agent inside this column. It has written out a very complex and a better prompt than I'd be able to. So it's like identify their ideal customer profile based on their company name and their company domain, uh, company website and product, uh, analyze all of these things about them, and then the format, ideal format, and then it gives examples of the ideal formats because we said three to five words, and then it built the whole output schema so that it comes back in an organized way. This would usually take like an Uber nerd to like build this in N8N. Now you just run it in a column, and then it's just like basically I can double-click on this, it also shoots out all the information into additional ones. Outdoor digital visual communication and advertising is what their primary use case, and this is their ideal customer. And it's now done this for the first five because we want to make sure we get the right result for you until you run it for thousands of people at once. Uh, but for me, for example, since I'm you know promoting out Bond, I would want to probably ask, like, there might be a line in there that's like, hey, you looking for more of these people? Um, because we can help you find them in a in a second. You know, I created a video or a lead list for you. Like, and that's where, like, you know, knowing a little bit more about like how could you strategize around this stuff. Um, but it's also shot out these things underneath here into color into columns automatically for we for us. So it gave us a status. I don't really care about the status, so I'll just delete this. Um primary use case, eh? It's good to have, but honestly, I don't need this here. The only thing I want is the targeted, yeah. Let's just go for ideal customer segment here. So we'll delete, we'll delete this other stuff, and now we can just keep going. And and here's what's really cool like you can do like uh lead scoring because the next thing is like, okay, maybe even before like finding their email addresses, we want to qualify whether they're a good fit for our company. So I don't personally like hire or like like product managers right now, but like I could be like, okay, qualify these leads for me. If I if I ask it to do that, the cool thing is that it knows, like me and you know, like if you don't have the context, it can't qualify because it needs to qualify understanding what you do. So it's either like tell me more about your company or just feed me the website. So let's feed it uh Charlie, what's the name of your website? Campaign pilots, one word, campaignpilots.ai.ai. Is that written correctly? Yeah, that's correct. Okay, perfect. And now it's going to uh go out and it's gonna scrape your website and it's gonna do another thing that you would have seen at the beginning of all this if we had just started with like, here's my website, find me leads. Gotcha. Um that is creating files. Now, what are files? Why do you care? Files is basically like ICP, ideal customer profile, the persona that we go after, and also a company description. And these three are really, really important for us to then apply for things like um, you know, when we're qualifying leads, but also like if you're copywriting, this will already understand so much context about your business that then it writes really good copy that's personalized that you can also adapt, and then we can send that out to each individual and it's like hyper, you know, personalized. Yeah. So you can have you can ask it to just like create hyper personalized, you could be as vague or as specific as you want. You could just control every word in the email and just have one thing that continually like changes. So, for example, like I don't know, you know, like um Charlie, you're into SEO, right? Like um, we could have it basically like scrape these people's websites, these leads websites, and come up with three SEO ideas that they could be using to be able to uh that you could like give them as of in the value of the email. So it's like, yeah, I came up with three strategies that you could apply tomorrow in SEO. Hope this is useful. You know, I know you just so like the first line could be like, I know you just recently hit your company, you're probably trying to crush it. Like, here are three examples I think could could really do well for your company. And they're like, and that like could be the only thing that like changes and is super specific to their company, you know. So that's where this stuff becomes very powerful. So here it's creating, writing out this stuff, um, marketing automation platform that helps marketing teams automate and uh optimize their campaign workflows. Um, love it. So it's also creating the persona, uh, it's also creating the ICP, and it can this is what it can use to just build the list to begin with. So this is where I say, like, yeah. Anyway, I'll kind of stop it there because at the end of this, you just plug, you like write out the email and then you plug that into a sequencer and it just sends out to thousands of people at a time. So it's really about creating hyper-personalized outreach that converts and has just a higher likelihood of um, and that's what we talk about when we say like sophistication. Usually you'd need a team of three people and clay to build this kind of thing, and now and and it would, you know, and now you could do it like yourself. And so it makes it that's that's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about like democratizing sales intelligence and like empowering the next um the next generation. It's it's really about like putting the tools in the hands of people who can use those tools, and right now it's like crazy how much people are wasting time because what I showed you, each one of these things is a different subscription, and um, and they're like you know, in between five tools, and it's like between 10 departments, like just to do this. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:36

It's like uh someone's got 10 tabs open to scrape the leads, and you gotta tell them what kind of leads the ICP, and then you got a copywriter needs to write the email sequences and make each unique with all the subpacting.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:47

Yeah, prospecting and outreach are like two very, like, like very different skill sets. And no, I've I've been through that like yeah, a hundred because we we're commission only salesmen, so we had to do we had to do everything, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:58

I mean, I think a lot of people have to do that, right? Any businesses out there, any any builder, right, who's trying to roll something out there, like this this applies to them in that in that regard.

Live Demo: List Building And Enrichment

SPEAKER_00 1:12:06

So and it's the whole life cycle. Like, how do you build a good product? You start with customer discovery. How do you get you need to get interviews with people who you think would want to build buy it, you know? So it's like I validate it. Yeah, so you realize that like it can be used for like the solo founder who's like just uh operating solo at first and testing out an idea all the way to like the multinational who's like doing this at scale to just like feed their their their sales teams, you know. So it's like that's what I find fascinating about this model specifically, and the fact that it's so broken just felt like it needs to be modernized, you know. And it's just only now that AI allows us to like plug all of the data in one place so that like these emails can be super contextual so that we can reach people at the right time with like signals and like yeah, and there's lots of stuff you can do with this. Like, we're actually building out a couple of features we're gonna drop next year that are gonna like kind of blow people away, I think.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:57

Cool, cool. Badass, man. I I'm definitely gonna sign up, uh sign up for this for it with with our app. So nice. Um cool stuff. So we we're a pod about uh you know customer acquisition, uh, you know, between the three of us are skill sets. Um so my my question is how are you solving that? Like I are I would guess you're eating your own dog food, but how are you getting customers uh too? Yeah, great question.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:21

Well, the first answer to that is uh we're just starting. Okay. Like we launched on Product Hunt officially uh in January, uh, but we basically like released like uh a video uh showcasing this, and we've got a lot of inbound like uh like requests. So we're we're hyper far focused on like the um the product right now and just like within the product to have it be more self-explanatory and providing like education so people can really get it, making like smoothing that whole process out. And um, but yeah, ultimately um we're gonna be, you know, we already launched a couple campaigns that are performing really well, as I told you, in terms of just like like eating our own dog food. Uh, then also I have like a pretty big audience, and I I'm a huge believer in in kind of like um, you know, uh influencer-based marketing. So not necessarily like influencer marketing, like pay people who have lots of reach, but like we strategically only raised a couple hundred thousand dollars right now from people who have followings or who have a huge amount of value to add to the table. Makes sense. Um distribution, yeah. And so bring in distribution beyond myself and and my following, but definitely that will be like a first big thing. I think that another thing people don't talk about a lot is just like YouTube is like a blue ocean for this kind of stuff. Like, if I if I look at like GTM, there are like no like GTM channels that have any kind of a following actually yet. Really?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:42

There's like I'm not familiar with anything, actually. I didn't even think about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:46

The biggest people on YouTube like who talk about GTM have like maybe like I don't know, 5k subscribers, like 10k subscribers. Like, I don't know if you know like Adam Robinson, this guy who's like um RB2B guy. Anyway, this guy is like a a kind of like a big name, and like, hey, he's like crushing LinkedIn, and all of these people are crushing LinkedIn, but like YouTube, they just like you know, and I think that our our opportunity in the longer term is to be able to reach beyond like you know, like people who really have, you know, our smaller teams as well, right? So we've created this in a way that's gonna be product-led growth, and we're also uh right now hiring um our first person that we're putting in like a GTM um role. So, but honestly, if you ask me what I think wins at the moment, I think it's like build trust with content, top of funnel content, and SEO, like intense SEO. Um then I think uh like you retarget people with paid ads um to like bring them kind of like deeper funnel and just like a lot of value. You just like the whole funnel has to just have so much value, you know. Uh and then you know, I I think that um and then you you put on like things like events um and um for like the kind of lower funnel, like yeah, community and and and and that kind of stuff. That I think that's what the strategies I'm kind of seeing. So like that's why I love speaking to you guys because you're all specialists in these, like all these like spots. And uh that's how I think about it as well. Like just kind of like, okay, like what does like a journey look like, right? Like someone might fall and then see like an outcome-based post on LinkedIn or on YouTube. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:24

Yeah, I was gonna ask you, like, what is your top of funnel? Because it sounds like a lot of what you're doing is is you're putting a lot of the marketing, you know, whether it's budget or just effort behind the top of funnel stuff, right? Which makes sense. You want to just get them in and get some visibility there. What are you doing from that perspective? Is it like, is it storytelling? Like, is it, you know, how are you trying to brand yourself and what's the exact message there?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:46

Oh man, that's a that's a good question. I don't know that we've uh gotten sophisticated enough now because we're in that a very early phase at the moment. But yeah, I can tell you kind of what, yeah, the the main pillars that we're working on is like we have built-in content machines. So like that already is something that can bring people towards it. Uh then I do also believe in like going out and like intentionally going after the people you think will get the most value from this, which is why we're kind of building a bringing in a first person who's gonna be a little bit more on the on the sales side of things, but also because um because you want like at this point, you really want to um build like this feedback loop between like the product and like the customer that's like tighter. And I think that when you have someone who's like on calls with people all the time and like they're feeling the objections and and understanding the you know where the value is um uh for people, I think that's like actually really powerful. And I'm obviously doing a lot of that. You know, right now there's only as much as I can handle because we're also getting like like kind of investors starting to come in and ask questions. We're getting um, you know, we're starting to structure the team. I obviously like I have a lot of leverage because I do have a following. Like it it one of the big things I think people don't realize about having a following is that it's actually not about the following, it's about the um the access you get. Like I'll I'll get like um you know people to answer my DMs who before would just never, you know. And I think that that's something that um that's quite that's like a perk of it. But still, you have to go out and build you know these relationships and like you're you know, it's like so there's just a lot going on right now, and we're ultimately we know that like the more we make this product amazing and for people to be able to use it in a way where they just feel like it's magic, um, I think the the more that we're gonna win. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:31

That'll help with word of mouth growth, right? Like, because there's there's a magic moment there that I just saw as a marketer. And so I imagine it's like, how do you get that word of mouth flywheel going with other marketers too?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:43

Yeah, exactly. And then like basically, like we're in the phase where we're gonna start fundraising next um next year. And that's really to bring in like some top talent who actually knows uh exactly all these different areas. Like we have some of the parts covered, but also like when you're building a team, you want, you know, to make sure that you're uh moving forward with like people who you know know what they're talking about, um, and letting them play their A game with each other because it there's something about that where like you put people who are great at what they do together and they just get excited with each other, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:13

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:14

You know, like and and and that's why like I love hopping in these kind of calls because like I'm talking to you guys, and like even before we hopped onto this podcast, it was just like so fun because it's like you guys just get it, you know. That's exactly what it is about.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:26

This is why I do brand marketing because like it requires this level of collaboration and creativity, and you have to have a safe space to do that. Like, if I'm gonna do my most unhinged chaotic marketing, it doesn't just come out of thin air, like you need to collaborate with others that can really bring that out. Um, so I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:43

Yeah. So listen, this is obviously like I'm here, I'm a guest, and all that, but like I want to hear you guys' opinions too, and I think the audience does as well. Uh, so I'm gonna become the interviewer now, and uh, I want you guys to eat what you guys see as like right now, like 2026. Like, what does that structure look like? How should people be thinking about like these different channels? And it's such a broad question because like phase of company obviously affects that dramatically. But like, how how are you seeing the whole thing evolve?

Research, Lead Scoring, And Personalization

SPEAKER_05 1:20:11

I'd love to hear you guys' perspective too, because you all have like deep knowledge and I think in at least in the marketing space, especially in like digital and kind of like a lot of what I do, it's my hope is and what I I do foresee is a lot more um, I guess what I'd say, like ease of entry points for leveraging AI and AI platforms, right? Because I still see I see it in my own agency, I see it in other companies where there's a there's kind of hesitation to use them because there's a lack of knowledge around it, right? Even a simple prompt. It's like starting there, it's like having that in place and giving people a foundation that they're very comfortable with to now go into a more intermediate or advanced mode of prompting and leveraging AI for what it's really there for. That's that's where I see it going because there's gonna be a point where it's gonna have to be used by almost everybody who's in a marketing agency, right? To become more efficient, to save time, to think of ideas and help ideate. And and it's just not there yet, but it it's very, very close, like right around the corner.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:08

It's like the, and I think this is kind of the common thing I'm hearing throughout everything is like the technology has advanced so quickly, but the humans haven't. And exactly even though like the narrative is like we're replacing humans, like we're we're actually beasts who like control. And so I think that like we're way more likely to spend the next five years with like human in the loop than like complete replacement in a lot of cases, because we actually just want that level of control, you know? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, everyone's gonna have to learn that. And and to bring it up to part like the tech with the people, you have to make the tech easy enough for the people to exactly right.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:44

Because an empty prompt box for so many, I think, is still very intimidating. Not for me, but I think for a lot of folks it really is. Um, well, look, as someone who's starting a marketing agency really focused on community marketing and brand marketing, I mean, just when it comes to the initial research process, right, and sort of understanding who I'm talking to and what their ICP looks like, that already in of itself, it's really helpful because usually when I come in, I will do like updated messaging and positioning, right? Especially in this AI world where everyone is kind of making similar tools that matters, right? So like using outbound in that way, outbound, gosh, darn it. Sorry. I'm it's not your field, it's mine. No, I know, but it's actually it's a great name. And I love the story behind it, which you should tell more of, by the way, because I think that's like I think what is special is like that's the humanness element of what you're building. And I'm going, I think over the next five years, that's gonna be really important, is the human aspect and what we're building. Um, anywho, but I see it being really helpful for those like initial research uh phases. And then when it comes to looking for specific clients, I already work with an assistant to like go through LinkedIn and have a very specific search criteria. So like that in of itself will also be huge.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:01

Um I have a question for you. Yeah, community. I have built big communities, but I still like my community on like for we are no code is like what like 18,000 people, which is like great, right? But like even I don't fully understand like community. It's such a broad topic. And as a specialist who's been doing this for such a long time, I'd love to hear like, you know, what what how you think of community, how to build it, and where you can get the best outcomes from it.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:30

Yeah, no, it's a great question. And uh most founders that I work with um are very confused by it. And to be honest, the word community kind of means nothing right now because it's such an overused term. Um, to me, it's about really connecting with the super fans and advocates of your of your product and then throwing fuel to that fire, engaging with them, rewarding them. Um, and so and then like finding a way to scale that up. And that's a lot of the work I did at Discord. I built like five to 10 different community programs, focused it on all different specific targets and core users. Um, and that helped a lot with organic growth. Um, there's nothing more powerful, in my opinion, than someone from the community or someone that you know that recommends your product, especially knowing that today, like you need to see, you need to see the product seven to eight times at least around that amount of time to even convert. And I think community is one of the best ways to convert customers and then create loyalty. I think this is a market where loyalty, people are not loyal. They're hopping from tool to tool, right? So if you really keep them along for the process and you reward them, um, they're gonna want to like stick to your platform and stick to what you're building versus like hopping on another tool because it's slightly cheaper or maybe it's slightly better, or maybe it's not, right? Um, but I feel like building that loyalty with the community helps um with that. So that really's like my quick TLDR.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:56

No, that really hits home. Cause I think like that early momentum is is just what actually makes the big difference. And yeah, we see the difference of that as well, especially in in um like companies like Lovable and Bolt who have done a really good job at that versus um like almost the rest, right? I think Replit has also done a good job at that, but like it's it's a really tough thing to do.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:19

Um Yeah, it is. And it's it's it's a relationship that you need to build. It is not an overnight marketing hack that is going to take place. Um, and so a lot of like the advice that I probably would have given you 10 years about building community would be the same today. Um, I mean, I think it's also about like if you are interested in UGC content, there's nothing more powerful than people just talking about you because they want to, because they like you. And that I think that actually is resulted from when you actually go and build intentional community. Um, so oh man, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:54

And it brings us to the next point with Charlie, because there's this other big elephant in the room right now with AI, which is just like search engines. Uh, you know, basically we see that people are getting a lot of their search information from LLMs. Like, tell us about how you think of that and the shift. It's it's like a like who's who's interviewing who right now, Chris? Let's welcome to Christian Peverelli's podcast. Uh we today have uh conversation. This is our last day, you guys.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:19

This is our last day. I hope you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:21

Chris can stay for cover. Okay, so I think uh the the big news recently, Adobe purchased SEMrush. I think that's a huge signal of SEO is is not dead. It's changed. Yes, there's AI overviews, the blue links, you know, blah, blah, blah. It's not going anywhere. The AI everywhere, the GEO, all that pardon my language here, I'm gonna sort all that bullshit. It's all the same. It's it's search engine optimization. You optimize for search engines, well, for humans first, you'll show up, and then you'll subsequently show up in LLMs. So it's technical, it's backlinks, it's content. And you keep your site clean, you'll rank. I don't think it's gonna go on your, I think it's critical that founders at least have somebody on their team, if not learning that themselves. And uh, you know, uh LLMs help with that, but I think you you have to put in you know, UGC, you know, personal, some sort of of human element into that content on your page, because that will absolutely help you rank. So um your your question, real quick, question Christian, was where is it going, or like how is it going to affect AI?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:22

No, I mean, I I just guess like you know, you kind of answered the majority of it. Um, but it's like, yeah, you know, that's that's a big thing people are talking about, right? They're calling it all sorts of things. It's like search LLM optimization.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:35

It's it's such it's it's everyone wants to create the next buzzword, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:27:40

It's all and then start like an agency around that and use a bunch of jargon on their landing pages to confuse people and get them to have a signed up uh sign up call, and then that they're gonna use outbond to to source the calls, and then the yes, like it's it's all gonna it's all gonna work exactly. So as as we wrap up here, Christian, um, you know, we we've taken up some of your time, but we have we we've communicated on on LinkedIn via DMs, and you mentioned that your first check was Angel Investing. Pardon me, your first check into Angel Investing, your first check was too lovable. So my question is, how is that possible, Christian Pavarelli? How did you get in that? How did you get on the cap table? How did you get it?

Use Cases Beyond Sales: Partnerships And Hiring

SPEAKER_00 1:28:15

Well, like I, you know, I know how to understand sophisticated, like my mind works kind of like that guy in the matrix. Honestly, honestly, it comes down to being a bit of a nerd and being at the right place at the right time. I was just like, uh I, you know, I was one of the first people to become an ambassador of AI coding because I was such a big figure on YouTube for no code. And so all these platforms approached me as soon as AI coding started coming out, and I was excited to try out these platforms. When I basically, you know, discovered them, I played around with the the three ones I mentioned earlier. And the one that stood out the most for me was the fact that it was lovable in the sense that I was able to get the full result that I actually wanted, which was a working MVP. Sure, there were things that weren't great, but it was enough for me to go out there and do the first phase of like building a startup, uh, which is testing. And we know that you know, if you build a production ready product as the first one, you're gonna have to change the whole thing anyway, because from you know, 90% of the time you hit the market and realize you have to like adapt. So, long story short, I, you know, did a first campaign for them, uh, really enjoyed the tool, got put in touch with Anton, who's the CEO, and uh yeah, and then you know, he I asked him if you know I could invest a little bit in in Lovable, and you know, he said like, yes, but we're closing this, and it was you know right before these, you know, past past big rounds. So I was in the the round before that, meaning that you know, um, and I hear there's something in the works right now for next round, which is obscene. Um, and yeah, and then actually I showed him Outbond early on, and this no one knows in the world yet, but I'll post about it at some point. And he he wrote an angel check for Outbond too, because he was really impressed with what he built.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:57

That's awesome. Cool, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:59

It's not a bad name. Absolute love is the truth. No, being no access, being an influencer.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:04

No, I I access and then like I love your your piece about being at the right place at the right time because it it does feel like a lot of that when we're building or we're in this space, like it it there's a component of that that I think we don't rem think about because we are we like to have control, like you said earlier, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:20

Yeah, and and honestly, like I I think of angel investing is probably best done when you're only investing in things that you can have an influence on. And for me, if I talk about uh lovable on on in a video or build something in front of people, thousands of people will sign up. And then the second thing is like if you understand this world, you're just more likely to bet on the right player as well. And so I would say it's luck because honestly, it could have been any of the the uh like replit bolt uh or lovable, but it seems like right now, um, you know, they're they're they're ahead of the game at the moment uh in that specific kind of category of vibe coding, I'd say.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:55

I would agree.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:55

Gosh, cool, cool. Well, Christian, uh, where can people find you and where can people find your company?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:02

Yeah, so it's outbond um and dot AI, and you can find that on the internets if you type it in the top bar. Um, me, LinkedIn. You can send me a message on LinkedIn if you want to connect. I'm always down. And um, yeah, or on YouTube, you can subscribe to my channel and uh you know, there's only really two things on YouTube. It's people who absolutely love you and you change their life, and other people who come and just absolutely troll you. And so I've so you know, I I love them all though, because they're all part of this uh this uh crazy trip that I've been uh going on recently. But yeah, no, though those are the places you could find me, and I'm always open to chat. Awesome, cool, cool. Thanks for being on the show. Thank you so much. It was awesome, man. This was the best podcast I've been on so far. Don't tell anyone. Oh, okay. Don't tell it was just like super casual and natural. I love it. Thanks for having me. Cheers.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:57

Thanks for having me. That's a compliment, guys. Okay, we're back post-interview with Christian Pepperelli. Uh, good stuff with that dude. He's funny guy. I I could tell first minute he hopped on, like, yeah, this is gonna be good.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:10

His energy was amazing.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:11

Energy was great. We we got interviewed for a poetry in chat. I was like, he said it. I I swear he was like, Okay, I'm gonna ask you guys a question, and it's like, you know, the cartoons where it's like the gulp. I'm like, oh no, no, no. Don't ask a question I don't know how to answer. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:25

I mean, okay, also he said as a comment that it was the best podcast podcast he's ever been a part of, which maybe he says that to everybody though. No, maybe he doesn't, Charlie. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe he doesn't, but maybe he does. But I I don't know. I felt like the chemistry was there.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:41

Like, I thought we're gonna listen to other podcasts. We're gonna we're gonna find you out, man, if you say it to other people.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:46

For real.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:47

We're gonna use an agent. Yeah, yeah. Um, no, good stuff with that, dude. So uh that was a great interview, and um yeah, that that tool is is legit for sure. Okay, let's let's roll into uh this past week in AI. And uh Mallory, let's chat about because I want to talk about this too, and I know Connor does. Uh name updates. Where there's one that you're excited about. Name updates first.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:12

Name updates first. Okay, so uh there's a jingle.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:15

Oh, there it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:16

Okay, oh boy, you guys are funny. Well, hopefully, they're trying to get me to sing a jingle, so we'll I'm um it's in the works. We're thinking about it.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:23

Name updates first. Hopefully, it's not gonna be a very long segment for the show. We'll have the name too.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:28

Mall, can you do an intro for each one of our segments now? Or like when we rebrand, put her on the spot.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:34

Yeah, are you kidding me? Hell yeah. Okay, okay, so I have a new short list to work with here. I was telling I was telling the guys beforehand that I got really excited about a specific name, and I actually am mostly excited about the top one here, Builder's Growth Lab. To me, it perfectly encapsulates who we're who we're interviewing, who we're trying to reach. The growth component is about marketing, is it not? It it covers all three of our areas of expertise without saying the word marketing. And then the lab kind of just like, you know, throws it together because not only are we going to be doing this podcast, Charlie's building campaign pilots, but of course we're thinking about angel investing at some point too. So I feel like that third word just is great. So this is actually my favorite, and there's a few others here, but this one was my favorite. And I just wanted to see what you guys think. So um I like the top one.

GTM Strategy: Content, SEO, And PLG

SPEAKER_05 1:34:27

Yeah, you have them in like did you put them in order of what you like for a like from Yeah, kind of, kind of. Yeah, I'm like I'm following that and I'm completely aligned with it. Like Builders Growth Lab is great, a launch pad's good, builder's launch pad is good, and then I think the last two get, I think they get a little they get a little too long, I yeah, mouthy kind of.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:45

I agree, I agree. This is me trying to kind of like throw, right? Like this is too long, but I'm like, okay, AI, growth, the launch part really resonates with founders, so I try to put it together, but I think it's a mouthful.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:57

I was this like uh like a marketing tactic where you're like, we're gonna give them two really good ones and everything else is gonna be everything's gonna be shit. So they're gonna really love the good one. I love the top one.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:10

I really do. I I like that one. Builders growth lab, yeah. Yeah, if that's what y'all y'all love. I mean, I like it.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:17

Do you guys like it? Okay. All right. Well, this was the shortest. Okay. This was the shortest session. Like, that's it.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:23

We're going with AI one more time. AI build lab.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:26

Going with Builders Growth Lab.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:27

Builders Growth Lab, no more AI.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:29

No more AI. Um, which I think is fine because Charlie.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:34

Charlie's like, from an SEO perspective, this isn't gonna work, you guys. And then the brand marketer is like, yes, it wow, it's gonna be great.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:43

Oh, goodness gracious. All right. Love it. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:46

We'll we'll sleep on it. If you guys like thinking about feedback, I but I think it's great.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:50

God, Charlie said yes, just go, just go.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:52

Yes, okay, okay, okay, okay. We're going. We're going. We're gonna floor it on this. Uh as long what are we so okay. So at this point, we decide on a name.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:01

What if there's no handles available? What if like the domains aren't available? What if checkering?

SPEAKER_03 1:36:07

Well, we got we gotta we gotta get creative with it. We'll have to do that. I mean, if it doesn't, maybe there's slight variations or tweaks that we can make. Um, and I'm open to that too. But you're I have not done that research yet. So um, I mean, this name shouldn't be taken, but in terms of the domain and social handle handles, I'm unclear. So that'll be a next that'll be homework for us to do. And then from here, we just need to figure out a few. What I'd like to do is kind of define a few visual directions for us to go after, and then we lock that down, and then we have a new look and a new name, we'll have a new intro. I'll like also we should probably update the messaging, right? Which is easy, but I feel like yeah, we're on track. So um, yeah, builders growth lab. All right, you guys let us know what you think, but it sounds like that'll be our new name, and we'll do some we'll do some homework to see if we can make this happen.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:58

Builder's Growth Lab. Okay, let's do it. That's fun.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:02

I like it. I'm glad you guys like it. I was like, Oh, I hope they like it. Cause if they don't, I'm like, okay, I'll I'll do some more brainstorming.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:07

But you would have gotten kicked off the show.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:08

I that's fine.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:13

That would have been that.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:15

Damn it. Damn it.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:16

It was a fun ride, Mallory. It was fun ride.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:17

I know, I know, I know.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:19

Especially during the holidays. Okay, anyway. Um, what are we chatting about next? She builds by lovable. This is great. This is freaking awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:26

Yeah. So it sounds like Lovable is launching a build-a-thon called She Builds. Um, so it's specifically for women that are looking to ship apps that solve real problems. Um, so it looks like the build-a-thon is gonna take place in mid-December, December 15th to 17th. But um, I believe applications close tomorrow. So if you're listening to this and well, actually, what day is it? Tuesday. It might already. So dang it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:58

Elena, shout out Elena Verna, um, put the post out yesterday, and I saw it, and I was like, all right, we gotta jump on this. So app yeah, applications close tomorrow, which is kind of tough.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:10

Yeah, unless um they're they're accepting 200 participants across categories such as business app, consumer apps, and social impact.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:19

Um I told my girlfriend to to hop in there. She's uh she so she she has celiac disease, gluten-free, and she wants to make an app with using agents that will go out and like do the research for you. Like, is this menu gluten-friendly? Is this fryer, you know, like like dedicated? Is this not, you know, can they, you know, the manual process of leave to call? Is this you know that it takes care of all of that for you?

SPEAKER_03 1:38:42

Um that's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:43

I yeah, I I told her to hop in there. Plus, uh, shocking, I bought the domain glutenfree.ai. It's there's I think it's gluten-free or gluten, it was something along those lines. I was like, oh my god, I couldn't believe it was available too.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:56

Oh my god, Charlie, we need an intervention.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:59

No, seriously, like it's an addiction, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:01

No, but that the domain was available, it was an exact match domain.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:06

Next Tuesday, Mallory and I are gonna be on 15 minutes early, waiting for you, Charlie, to enter in. We're just gonna make Charlie. There's a there's something we need to discuss here. You need to stop buying domains.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:14

Yeah, especially since you're not turning a profit on these domains, you're just hoarding them.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:21

You're hoarding domains, yeah. Uh I I could just let them all. Yeah, maybe that's that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:27

It's a fairly inexpensive obsession. So we'll we'll let it slide this time.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:32

Yeah, uh, I mean, I I thought the domain was. I mean, my thinking was like I hopped on Glimpse, I saw the the trending keyword go up and to the right, and I was like, yeah, gluten-free. It's not like it's gonna go away. Like gluten-free is no, so I was like, not at all. I'll hop on there. So you know what? Screw you guys, I don't care what you think. I'm just gonna keep I'm just gonna keep it. I mean, it's good, it's good.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:50

It's a gluten free a. I mean, like I get it, I get it.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:54

Uh yeah, so I'm I'm taking that. So I uh all that to say, um, yeah, I I'll help her like along the way, you know, like when she asks for it. But I mean, I was like, yeah, just jump in there, do you know, submit, do your thing. Like that, that's what they want.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:06

So this is the time to build. You know, it doesn't matter if you don't have the skills. This is the time to build. So for those of you who have listening, if you have not dived into any of these tools, like please, this is a great week to do it. Um, holiday week. Have a little bit more time, you know, explore some of these tools and really, really get used to using them.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:24

Cool, cool. Uh up next, we have oh yeah. So we wanted to okay. So again, I've been down the rabbit hole of just campaign pilots for so long. Uh, I will ask Connor, Connor, what do you use Claude for?

Community, Loyalty, And Word Of Mouth

SPEAKER_05 1:40:37

And what do you use GPT for? It's really easy. I use cloud cloud code for coding, like a lot of like script writing, um, HTML builds, like JavaScript, stuff like that. And then I typically I'll also use Cloud for um copywriting if I need it. Yeah, and I honestly use Chat GPT a little bit less than I used to now. Sometimes I'll have it, sometimes I'll have it validate the code, um, but it hasn't done nearly as good of a job with that over the last couple of weeks. So kind of surprise. Yeah, like I'll sh I'll share it between because you know, again, it's like you never get it's really rare to have like first time shot, like you get the code that you actually need and it works as intended, right? So it's a lot of going back in and reprompting, telling you what's wrong. But what I'll do now is I'll take the cloak, I'll take the code from Claude, throw it into chat, and I'll be like, hey, take, you know, take time, go through each line. This is the objective, this is what I'm trying to achieve with it. I want you to validate this, you know, 110%. And and a lot of times it'll find like little things that'll pull out that are pretty helpful, and then I'll put it back into Claude and I just have it complete the rest of the code based on some of the updates chat made chat made. So that's how I use it, at least those in tan with one another. Um, and honestly, again, over time, Claude Code, it's it's really, really robust. It's really neat. I don't know. Have you used it at all? I've never used Claude Code.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:59

I haven't, I haven't either. It's just actually amazing.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:01

I've heard it's incredible. It's it's it's actually really, really good.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:05

It's really that's our homework, Charlie. Like talking about testing out tools, you and I need to go test out claud code. So which is funny because I worked up I worked at bolt.new where like we integrated cloud code into our agent, but I didn't get a chance to just like test out cloud code as is. So um, I had reasons to be testing it out and I haven't. So this to me is like I gotta do it. I recommend it.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:27

Like, yeah, just do it in there and then and then use something else to validate. Like, I always like to use two. I'm sure you guys, or Charlie, at least you do, or like whatever. I'll use two at the same time. Again, just to kind of cross over because again, I don't always get the output I want from one, so I'll take what I got, throw it in the other, give it some prompts, and typically get what I want after a few after a few iterations of it. So that's where I'm at. What about you though, Charlie? It's like what's uh I guess claud versus GBT.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:51

Uh I use cloud for content, uh GPT for just like ideas, just kind of like business stuff, like like share, you know. If I had this idea, what would be the you know, business plan? Uh or something like SEO related, like hear these keywords, um, come up with something around you know this keyword. Uh so I I really only use those two. So use Claude, Claude for content silos. Like here's the parent page, here's the child page, give five ideas for child pages. Like I was doing that last night with campaign pilots. Uh I haven't wired anything up. I should. In terms of an agent to put out content, uh, like for you know, X and LinkedIn. I guess I would have to use Claude. Might be the best use. That's what I was LLM. Um yeah, so for the content, content written and some SEO stuff, Claude, and then for like business ideas, show outlines. I actually use GPT for podcast show outlines and not Claude. And then for like deep research stuff, I'll use GPT. So for like uh what was something I was looking at? I was looking at like angel investing questions and stuff like that. So I I had GPT, uh it was like quizzing me on angel investing of you know, here's 10 questions, medium to hard difficulty, and then I you know, I picked A, B, or C or D. So that was through GPT. So I I think now I use GPT more than I use Claude. Do you think interesting questions?

SPEAKER_03 1:44:13

Yeah, I do too. Which I actually want to be using Claude more. I honestly I primarily use GPT for honestly almost everything. Like this morning I was using it for diet planning and skincare routines. Um, but I use it for copywriting, I use it for generating plans. Um, that image that was generated for my Substack post um that I generated that was that was GPT. That was GPT 5. Oh, really? Nice. Yep. That was a cool image. I know. So I was able to get like a sample image on Pinterest, but I wanted it to be in a different color.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:47

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:47

And then I would essentially just share the image with GPT-5 and have it generate something similar, but with the tweaks that I wanted. So once in a while I'll have it generate some images for me as well. Um, but honestly, it like everything, like truly everything, it's which I don't want to be reliant on one tool for all this stuff because it just knows way too much about me. I think that's what I get really fearful of. Um, I have used Claude and I don't know why I don't stick to it. It's a great tool. Um, I've used it at every business, like every startup in the last few years. But for some reason, I just keep finding myself going back to GPT-5, um, which I don't have a good reason for, other than like it's just the tool I started kind of using initially. So, and then um as a mark, like when I was working at Bolt with my teams, like we would use we would use like VO3, um, mid-journey uh to create and generate um any sort of assets in creative. So um, we did like a full-blown ad in uh with VO3. Um, so yeah, uh I'm not that I'm like playing around with that right now, but more so tools that as a marketer um my teams have used.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:51

Gotcha. Yeah, I I I think I'm just gonna use G it's just easier to go to one platform, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:45:56

I know.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:58

As much as I like the content from Claude, Claude, Claude is.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:01

It's just again, I th well, I guess it depends what you're doing, right? Again, it's like if I'm code, like the coding needs to be validated, that's why I use two. But if I'm I actually typically always start with chat as well, but that's because it was the first platform, it was the first one I started using, and there's probably some subconscious, I don't know, brand resonance there just because I was like, Oh, okay, great, like it it works and it solves a lot of my problems before I even started using Claude. But um, I don't know, it's just I just like using two at least two platforms to make sure one's yeah actually feeding me correct info.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:32

I've been I've been vibe coding lately with bolt.new, and then I'll use chat GPT to help me write the like PRD and the prompts and double check the work, and then I'll go back to Bolt, right? So yeah, I'm with you on that.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:45

Yeah, cool, cool. All right, well, that wraps up uh episode 27, uh presented by campaign pilots, sponsored by campaign pilots for now, for now, and we will come back next uh next week, next Thursday.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:58

Thanksgiving to everybody out there. Enjoy your holiday, safe and sound. You guys are be safe, don't do anything stupid.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:04

Don't drink too much on on Wednesday. What is it called? Like blackout Wednesday or something. Be safe.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:09

Is that what they call it?

SPEAKER_03 1:47:10

Well, in the Midwest, that's what we did. But here in California, it's not as much of a drinking culture. But yeah, that is a thing. So be safe. Um, be safe, be safe.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:19

Be safe. Okay, cheers, everybody.

SPEAKER_06 1:47:21

We're out of the way.